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Illinois Forced Sterilization Case (fwd)   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #1009 of 1997 |
Re: [ThomasSzaszDiscussion] Re: the regulation of reproduction

Good points, Tracy. Notice how we are debating the meaning and connotation of
words. What does it mean to "regulate"? If the government passed a law that
said women would not be allowed to give birth after age 40, that would be a law
regulating reproduction, would it not? [Of course, I probably should expect
that you won't agree. But for right now, I will assume you agree.] But instead
of that law or regulation, the legislature enacted a law that said women must
pay half of their incomes as taxes after they reach the age of 40. Would that
be a law that regulated reproduction (in some sense of the meaning of regulate)?
It would affect the decisions that some women would make about getting pregnant,
would it not? Would it be considered an indirect way of regulating
reproduction? When the government promises to pay a regular sum of money to
women below a certain level of wealth if they have children out of wedlock (or
even in wedlock), does that law (to pay the money etc.)
constitute a form of regulation of reproduction? Does it encourage women to
have babies? [Regulate - to bring under the control of law or constituted
authority, to bring order, method or uniformity to (something), to fix or adjust
the time, amount, degree, or rate of].

If regulate is not the right word, then maybe "manage" would be a better word.
Should the government "manage" the reproductivity of the people?
When I ask if governments are going to pay more attention to controlling and
regulating reproduction, I am asking whether the government can tell a woman she
may or may not get pregnant and if she does, whether she be allowed to give
birth to the child or whether the government will intervene and abort the child.
Does a woman have an absolute right to become pregnant? Can society say to a
woman: if you become pregnant, your pregnancy will be aborted? If society can
put a woman into an evironment, e.g. a prison, where getting pregnant is not
easy, can society tell the woman who is not in the prison that she may not get
pregnant? As for women in prisons, they apparently occasionally fornicate with
men (against the rules) and become pregnant. And, of course, there is the issue
of conjugal visits. Some prisons provide private areas where prisoners can meet
with spouses and fornicate if they want to. Can the directors of prisons say to
a woman who is allowed conjugal visits, if she
gets pregnant, she will not be allowed to carry a child to birth if she becomes
pregnant?



"Tracy B. Harms" <t_b_harms@...> wrote:
Charles Howard wrote:

> ...
>
> I think the time has probably come when the regulation of
> reproduction needs to be an issue of talk and debate. For
> example, I don't think a woman has been imprisoned should
> be entitled to become pregnant while she is in prison.
> Would you care to respond to that example?
>

I do see now that I cannot simply preclude "regulation of
reproduction" in the manner I previously suggested. As for this
example, however, I don't think it will fit the topic you proposed.

No woman is entitled to become pregnant, period. Now, as for the
fact that women do have the right to attempt to become pregnant,
through cooperation with those who might impregnate her, this right
would naturally be denied as a side-effect of the denial of freedom
of movement and association that typically comes with imprisonment.
When a woman is precluded from becoming pregant because she is
imprisoned, this isn't a matter of "regulating reproduction" any
more than incidentally preventing her from making pilgrimage to
Mecca would be rightly called regulating religion.


Tracy Harms




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Tue Oct 4, 2005 3:21 pm

ozarkheretic
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Forward
Message #1009 of 1997 |
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http://www.suntimes.com/output/otherviews/cst-nws-sterile21.html Should Kirsten Johnson be allowed to have kids? August 21, 2005 Chicago Sun-Times BY KATIE...
Tracy B. Harms
t_b_harms
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Aug 30, 2005
9:27 pm

This issue was hot in the Nethelands a few months back. Our minister of health, apparently after being criticized for shouting off the top of her head, ordered...
mirah@...
miradevries
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Aug 30, 2005
9:40 pm

Can you provide the website where the research was presented? Is it in English? A major cognitive disability is having a low IQ. How low, of course, has to...
Charles Howard
ozarkheretic
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Aug 30, 2005
10:33 pm

... How would that possibly be applied? (I hesitate to ask, this sounds so bad!) Also, I think we must be extremely suspect of any attempt to deny parental...
Tracy B. Harms
t_b_harms
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Aug 30, 2005
10:47 pm

Well, you are right. I was rambling. I was thinking of abortion as termination of parental rights. I appreciate what you are saying about the danger of...
Charles Howard
ozarkheretic
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Aug 31, 2005
2:28 am

... That was what I suspected. I hope you realize that it makes no sense to judge that a person is not taking adequate care of their child, then use that...
Tracy B. Harms
t_b_harms
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Aug 31, 2005
6:35 pm

I don't get your point about it not making any sense to conclude that a person is not taking adequate care of his child, then using that judgment as an...
ozarkheretic
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Sep 1, 2005
3:25 am

... Charles Howard initially suggested that if a pregnant woman were judged criminally negligent with regard to the well-being of her unborn child, the result...
Tracy B. Harms
t_b_harms
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Sep 1, 2005
2:51 pm

Tracy, I don't believe I made the statement that you claim I made. Your remarks indicate to me that you do not approve of voluntary abortion. Do you think a...
Charles Howard
ozarkheretic
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Sep 1, 2005
4:04 pm

... I do see now that I cannot simply preclude "regulation of reproduction" in the manner I previously suggested. As for this example, however, I don't think...
Tracy B. Harms
t_b_harms
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Oct 3, 2005
7:19 pm

Good points, Tracy. Notice how we are debating the meaning and connotation of words. What does it mean to "regulate"? If the government passed a law that...
Charles Howard
ozarkheretic
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Oct 4, 2005
3:21 pm

... This does not seem an important aspect of our discussion, to me. ... Yeah, it would. ... So, did my answer confound your expectations, or not? ;) ... In...
Tracy B. Harms
t_b_harms
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Oct 4, 2005
10:41 pm

... This does not seem an important aspect of our discussion, to me. What does not seem to be an important aspect of our discussion? Are we only going to...
Charles Howard
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Oct 5, 2005
3:24 pm

Dear Charles Howard, I am surprised at your reply. Should I interpret the fact that you chose to pay attention to only one sentence as a strong disagreement ...
Tracy B. Harms
t_b_harms
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Oct 6, 2005
12:51 am

T.B. Would you mind clarifying your remark that "... attention should be focused on propositions and problems, not definitions and meanings"? Maybe you could...
Charles Howard
ozarkheretic
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Oct 6, 2005
1:56 am

... Speaking only for myself, I have not participated in this discussion because I have nothing to say about the matter other than that any interference at all...
mirah@...
miradevries
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Oct 6, 2005
10:48 am

... The first example that comes to mind is a paper by Karl Popper entitled "A Realist View of Logic, Physics, and History". It was published in _Objective...
Tracy B. Harms
t_b_harms
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Oct 6, 2005
5:57 pm

I'd like to clarify something that I think was not plain in my prior post. When I wrote about "serious" problems, I had a particular meaning in mind, the...
Tracy B. Harms
t_b_harms
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Oct 6, 2005
6:47 pm

What are "words"? What is a "plague"? What is a "reason"? What does the word "unfruitful" mean? What is a "game"? A comment about Popper from Szasz's...
Charles Howard
ozarkheretic
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Oct 6, 2005
7:23 pm

<<By the way, what is a "question"?>> As all fans of Airplane: The Movie know: "It's an interrogative form of sentence, used to test knowledge. But that's not...
Christine Johnson
c_johnson2004
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Oct 6, 2005
7:49 pm

Shirley, Is that really you? ... But that's not important right now." ... reproduction ... What does the word "unfruitful" mean? What is a "game"? ... with...
ozarkheretic
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Oct 7, 2005
1:15 am

It is in reality extremely rare that people with debilitating disabilities bear children....
mirah@...
miradevries
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Aug 31, 2005
5:20 am

I am sure I have seen a statement like the one you make but I don't know where. I think I have read that people of very low intelligence tend not to produce...
ozarkheretic
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Sep 1, 2005
3:02 am

... http://www.minvws.nl/images/rapport-handicvap_tcm10-65229.pdf ... No....
mirah@...
miradevries
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Aug 31, 2005
5:19 am
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