Hi All,



I'm no expert, but just to remind everyone, since EGF has the

potential for upregulating the growth rates of cancer cells, please be

sure to discuss the use of any topical with EGF in it with your

dermatologist before using.   At the very least, they should be able

to help you keep a lookout for any signs of potential skin cancer

while you're using it.



http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=32387



Also, I have not read any studies which suggest that rosacea itself

may lead to increases in skin cancer rates, but inflammation has been

implicated in increased rates, and since rosacea involves a chronic

inflammatory response, we should probably be extra careful:



http://www.cancernetwork.com/journals/oncology/o0202d.htm

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/life_sciences/report-32184.html

http://www.skincancer.org/squamous/index.php



Again, I'm no expert and don't really want to scare anyone.   But be

sure to talk this over with your dermatologist before using a product

with EGF in it...





Dan

That's a good idea, check with your derm before using EGF.



Artist, perhaps you should consider adding the risks with your posts?

Yes I say always discuss your plan with your dermatologist with

anything new, especially home formulations. We can never be too

careful, and derms may be able to learn more about what works and does

not.



I read this through (see below) and I think this is what it is saying.

The normal process of cell division is that the EGF naturally in our

skin attaches to an EGF receptor on our cells. That receptor is called

EGFR (EGF Receptor). That activates tyrosine kinase, which triggers

cell growth and multiplication. So you have that normal process with

EGF, EGFR, and Tyrosine Kinase. BUT, cancer cells have a lot of EGF

receptors (EGFRs), so if you are someone who has skin cancer then it

would seem to make sense that adding more EGF would be bad. So, then

would it only be a concern if you have existing skin cancer? Has

anyone heard reports from anyone with EGF/cancer problems? Please more

info if you find any. So far I have been fine, and have not heard any

cancer reports.



"EGFR: Epidermal growth factor receptor. A protein found on the

surface of cells to which epidermal growth factor (EGF) binds. When

EGF attaches to EGFR, it activates the enzyme tyrosine kinase,

triggering reactions that cause the cells to grow and multiply. EGFR

is found at abnormally high levels on the surface of many types of

cancer cells, which may divide excessively in the presence of EGF. The

drug Iressa attaches to EGFR and thereby inhibits the attachment of

EGF and stops cell division. The gene for EGFR is on chromosome 7p12.

3-p12.1. The EGFR molecule has 3 regions -- one projects outside the

cell and contains the site for binding EGF; the second is embedded in

the cell membrane; and the third projects into the cytoplasm of the

cell's interior. EGFR is a kinase that attaches phosphate groups to

tyrosine residues in proteins. EGFR is also known confusingly as

ErbB1, ErbB, oncogene ErbB, and HER1."





I'm not completely clear on it, so I talked to my derm and we decided

I would only use it once a day, to be very safe.



Here is a blurb about it from Skinactives. The question comes up

sometimes over there:



"Cancer cells have lost the normal controls, DNA mutations affecting

proteins involved in the control of cell division are the problem,

epidermal growth factor is not the reason why the become cancerous.

Epidermal growth factor is naturally in our skin, using EGF as part of

your skin care will help with skin thickness and renewal.



Cells in melanoma, the most dangerous skin cancer, have no receptors

for epidermal growth factor."



So, for me, I would really avoid it if I had rhinophyma or existing

skin cancer. As it is, I use it once a day and I monitor my skin

closely anyway.



Cheers!



Artist

Please note:



Although I am only a customer, after my experience with EGF,

Skinactives submitted a patent on it for rosacea and included me

because of input I provided to them.



In my opinion, when trying anything new for your rosacea, especially

home formulations, it is very important to visit your dermatologist

first. In addition, I would NOT apply EGF to rhinophyma or skin

cancer. This is my opinion, and does not take the place of advice from

your doctor.





--- In rosacea-support@yahoogroups.com, "dfries2003" <dfries2003@...>

wrote:

>

>

> Hi All,

>

> I'm no expert, but just to remind everyone, since EGF has the

> potential for upregulating the growth rates of cancer cells, please

be

> sure to discuss the use of any topical with EGF in it with your

> dermatologist before using.   At the very least, they should be able

> to help you keep a lookout for any signs of potential skin cancer

> while you're using it.

>

> http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=32387

>

> Also, I have not read any studies which suggest that rosacea itself

> may lead to increases in skin cancer rates, but inflammation has

been

> implicated in increased rates, and since rosacea involves a chronic

> inflammatory response, we should probably be extra careful:

>

> http://www.cancernetwork.com/journals/oncology/o0202d.htm

> http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/life_sciences/report-

32184.html

> http://www.skincancer.org/squamous/index.php

>

> Again, I'm no expert and don't really want to scare anyone.   But be

> sure to talk this over with your dermatologist before using a

product

> with EGF in it...

>

>

> Dan

>

I'm no expert, but here's my take on this...



While the statement that EGF doesn't cause cancer is technically

correct, I think the potential is that if a cell becomes damaged

through some inflammatory (or oxidative) process (from UV radiation,

pathogen, chemical inducer, etc) or a via a genetic defect and mutates

to then have more EGF receptors as cancer cells do have, excess

amounts of EGF could bind to the EGF receptor(s) and cause the cell to

begin multiplying rapidly.



So correct, EGF doesn't cause the mutation in the cell to begin with,

but cancer cells use EGF to multiply rapidly so you could be adding

fuel to a fire if a fire exists (and cells are constantly being

damaged in our body with normal day to day living, although normally

our immune systems are able to "kill" these cells off before they

become a problem).



Also, I don't believe the statement that "cells in melanoma, the most

dangerous skin cancer, have no receptors   for epidermal growth

factor." is necessarily correct.    Current studies seem to suggest

that at least some melanoma cells have EGF receptors (potentially the

more virulent ones):



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra\

ct&list_uids=15580309&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_docsum



It is unclear to me whether it is EGF or TGF that binds to these

melanoma receptors to cause rapid division as I've seen some studies

suggesting both.   It looks like there is still quite a bit of

research going on in this area so potentially we'll know for sure one

day.   Meanwhile, caution might be warranted for both carcinomas AND

melanomas.



BTW, in case anyone is interested, several anti-cancer drugs have been

developed that work by actually blocking the EGF receptor including

Erbitux (remember the IMCLONE scandal), Iressa, Tarceva, etc:



http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=11530



Again, as Artist suggests, please discuss the use of products with EGF

  with your dermatologist before using just to be safe...



Dan



--- In rosacea-support@yahoogroups.com, "nurse_artist"

<nurse_artist@...> wrote:

>

> Yes I say always discuss your plan with your dermatologist with

> anything new, especially home formulations. We can never be too

> careful, and derms may be able to learn more about what works and does

> not.

>

> I read this through (see below) and I think this is what it is saying.

> The normal process of cell division is that the EGF naturally in our

> skin attaches to an EGF receptor on our cells. That receptor is called

> EGFR (EGF Receptor). That activates tyrosine kinase, which triggers

> cell growth and multiplication. So you have that normal process with

> EGF, EGFR, and Tyrosine Kinase. BUT, cancer cells have a lot of EGF

> receptors (EGFRs), so if you are someone who has skin cancer then it

> would seem to make sense that adding more EGF would be bad. So, then

> would it only be a concern if you have existing skin cancer? Has

> anyone heard reports from anyone with EGF/cancer problems? Please more

> info if you find any. So far I have been fine, and have not heard any

> cancer reports.

>

> "EGFR: Epidermal growth factor receptor. A protein found on the

> surface of cells to which epidermal growth factor (EGF) binds. When

> EGF attaches to EGFR, it activates the enzyme tyrosine kinase,

> triggering reactions that cause the cells to grow and multiply. EGFR

> is found at abnormally high levels on the surface of many types of

> cancer cells, which may divide excessively in the presence of EGF. The

> drug Iressa attaches to EGFR and thereby inhibits the attachment of

> EGF and stops cell division. The gene for EGFR is on chromosome 7p12.

> 3-p12.1. The EGFR molecule has 3 regions -- one projects outside the

> cell and contains the site for binding EGF; the second is embedded in

> the cell membrane; and the third projects into the cytoplasm of the

> cell's interior. EGFR is a kinase that attaches phosphate groups to

> tyrosine residues in proteins. EGFR is also known confusingly as

> ErbB1, ErbB, oncogene ErbB, and HER1."

>

>

> I'm not completely clear on it, so I talked to my derm and we decided

> I would only use it once a day, to be very safe.

>

> Here is a blurb about it from Skinactives. The question comes up

> sometimes over there:

>

> "Cancer cells have lost the normal controls, DNA mutations affecting

> proteins involved in the control of cell division are the problem,

> epidermal growth factor is not the reason why the become cancerous.

> Epidermal growth factor is naturally in our skin, using EGF as part of

> your skin care will help with skin thickness and renewal.

>

> Cells in melanoma, the most dangerous skin cancer, have no receptors

> for epidermal growth factor."

>

> So, for me, I would really avoid it if I had rhinophyma or existing

> skin cancer. As it is, I use it once a day and I monitor my skin

> closely anyway.

>

> Cheers!

>

> Artist

> Please note:

>

> Although I am only a customer, after my experience with EGF,

> Skinactives submitted a patent on it for rosacea and included me

> because of input I provided to them.

>

> In my opinion, when trying anything new for your rosacea, especially

> home formulations, it is very important to visit your dermatologist

> first. In addition, I would NOT apply EGF to rhinophyma or skin

> cancer. This is my opinion, and does not take the place of advice from

> your doctor.

>

>

> --- In rosacea-support@yahoogroups.com, "dfries2003" <dfries2003@>

> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Hi All,

> >

> > I'm no expert, but just to remind everyone, since EGF has the

> > potential for upregulating the growth rates of cancer cells, please

> be

> > sure to discuss the use of any topical with EGF in it with your

> > dermatologist before using.   At the very least, they should be able

> > to help you keep a lookout for any signs of potential skin cancer

> > while you're using it.

> >

> > http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=32387

> >

> > Also, I have not read any studies which suggest that rosacea itself

> > may lead to increases in skin cancer rates, but inflammation has

> been

> > implicated in increased rates, and since rosacea involves a chronic

> > inflammatory response, we should probably be extra careful:

> >

> > http://www.cancernetwork.com/journals/oncology/o0202d.htm

> > http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/life_sciences/report-

> 32184.html

> > http://www.skincancer.org/squamous/index.php

> >

> > Again, I'm no expert and don't really want to scare anyone.   But be

> > sure to talk this over with your dermatologist before using a

> product

> > with EGF in it...

> >

> >

> > Dan

> >

>

Hi All,



One last caution.    Most studies on EGF involve its short term use.

  No longterm studies of continuous use really exist so be sure also to

discuss length of use issues with your doctor.   I think Paula Begoun

covers this nicely on her site:



"human growth factor. It is important to make it clear that the topic

of human growth factor (HGF) is exceedingly complicated. The

physiological intricacies of the varying HGFs and their actions

challenge any layperson's comprehension. Nonetheless, because the use

of HGF seems to be the direction some skin-care companies are taking,

and because there is a large body of research showing its efficacy for

wound healing (but not for wrinkles), it does deserve comment.



HGFs make up a complex family of hormones that are produced by the

body to control cell growth and cell division in skin, blood, bone,

and nerve tissue. Most significantly, HGFs regulate the division and

reproduction of cells, and they also can influence the growth rate of

some cancers. HGFs occur naturally in the body but they are also

synthesized and used in medicine for a range of applications,

including wound healing and immune system stimulation. HGFs are

chemical messages that bind to receptor sites on the cell surface

(receptor sites are places where cells communicate with a substance to

let them know what or what not to do). HGFs must communicate with

cells to instruct them to activate the production of new cells, or to

instruct a cell to create new cells that have different functions.

Another way to think of HGFs is that they are messengers designed to

be received or "heard" by specific receptor sites or "ears" on the

cell. HGFs, such as transforming growth factor (TGF, stimulates

collagen production) or epidermal growth factor (EGF, stimulates skin

cell production), play significant roles in healing surgical wounds.

The main task of HGFs is to cause cell division, which is helpful;

however, at certain concentrations and lengths of application they can

cause cells to over-proliferate, which can cause cancer or other

health problems.



But what happens when you put HGFs on skin, particularly TGF and EGF,

which some companies claim their products contain? The risk is that

they could accelerate the growth of skin cancer by stimulating the

overproduction of skin cells. In the case of TGF, which stimulates

collagen production, it can encourage scarring. This is because scars

are the result of excessive collagen production, and if you make too

much collagen you get a scar or a knot on the skin such as a keloidal

scar. Most of the research on the issue of HGFs for skin has looked

primarily at the issue of wound healing, and at short-term use of

HGFs. In skin-care products, they would be used repeatedly, possibly

over long periods of time. A shortcoming of HGFs, according to an

article by Dr. Donald R. Owen in the March 1999 issue of Global

Cosmetic Industry, is that "The body produces these [HGFs] in

exquisitely small concentrations at just the right location and

time.... Actual growth factors such as [EGF and TGF-B] are [large]

configurations, which do not penetrate the skin.... They [also] lose

their activity within days in water or even as solids at normal

temperatures.... [Yet], even after all these complications, the

siren's song is too strong. We [the cosmetics chemists] will use

them." The research into HGFs is without question intriguing, but

there is much that's not known, especially in terms of long-term risk

or stability when they're used in cosmetics and applied to skin. In

this arena, if cosmetics companies continue to use HGFs, it is the

consumer who will be the guinea pig."





Here's a link to the Paula's Choice site:



http://www.paulaschoice-eu.com/dictionary.asp?TYPE=SEARCH&ID=H



Again, I don't mean to scare anyone.  I just want to convince everyone

that it really might be best to discuss the use of EGF products with

your doctor even though these products are sold over the counter,

particularly since we have a disease associated with upregulated

inflammation to begin with.



Take care,

Dan



  --- In rosacea-support@yahoogroups.com, "dfries2003" <dfries2003@...>

wrote:

>

>

> Hi All,

>

> I'm no expert, but just to remind everyone, since EGF has the

> potential for upregulating the growth rates of cancer cells, please be

> sure to discuss the use of any topical with EGF in it with your

> dermatologist before using.   At the very least, they should be able

> to help you keep a lookout for any signs of potential skin cancer

> while you're using it.

>

> http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=32387

>

> Also, I have not read any studies which suggest that rosacea itself

> may lead to increases in skin cancer rates, but inflammation has been

> implicated in increased rates, and since rosacea involves a chronic

> inflammatory response, we should probably be extra careful:

>

> http://www.cancernetwork.com/journals/oncology/o0202d.htm

>

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/life_sciences/report-32184.html

> http://www.skincancer.org/squamous/index.php

>

> Again, I'm no expert and don't really want to scare anyone.   But be

> sure to talk this over with your dermatologist before using a product

> with EGF in it...

>

>

> Dan

>

dan,

   do you know, are the cosmetic companies liable to law suits if this turns out

to be a harmful thing?

   thnx,emily





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Emily,



Sorry, I have no idea.  Maybe it would be best to consult with your

dermatologist's lawyer on this one!  ;-)



Seriously though, I don't want to discourage anyone from trying EGF

after consulting with your derm, discussing the pros and cons,

application regimine and duration of use as Artist has done.   Artist

has certainly had AMAZING results with it (she has been kind enough to

upload before and after pics), and as we all know, there are few

products or treatments that produce these type of results,

particularly for the more resistant cases of rosacea.



Dan



--- In rosacea-support@yahoogroups.com, Kemx <kemx@...> wrote:

>

> dan,

>   do you know, are the cosmetic companies liable to law suits if

this turns out to be a harmful thing?

>   thnx,emily

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

Just want to add that I think the anti-cancer properties of green tea may combat

the possible concerns over EGF that were recently mentioned.  Just a thought.



   Elizabeth



dfries2003 <dfries2003@...> wrote:

   Hi Emily,



Sorry, I have no idea. Maybe it would be best to consult with your

dermatologist's lawyer on this one! ;-)



Seriously though, I don't want to discourage anyone from trying EGF

after consulting with your derm, discussing the pros and cons,

application regimine and duration of use as Artist has done. Artist

has certainly had AMAZING results with it (she has been kind enough to

upload before and after pics), and as we all know, there are few

products or treatments that produce these type of results,

particularly for the more resistant cases of rosacea.



Dan



--- In rosacea-support@yahoogroups.com, Kemx wrote:

>

> dan,

> do you know, are the cosmetic companies liable to law suits if

this turns out to be a harmful thing?

> thnx,emily

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>



















--

Please read the list highlights and FAQ: http://rosacea.ii.net

New ! Rosacea Support Resource Pages: http://rosacea-research.org/wiki



Yahoo! Groups Links



















---------------------------------

Yahoo! Mail goes everywhere you do.  Get it on your phone.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Excellent information. I just starting using egf mixed with canvass cream and

other anti inflammatory products from SAS. I do greatly apreciate this info, and

this is the reason why we rosaceans need each other with so many things on

different sites, and so many different trial and error products, so many

stories. Thank you dfries tamara



dfries2003 <dfries2003@...> wrote:  Hi All,



One last caution. Most studies on EGF involve its short term use.

No longterm studies of continuous use really exist so be sure also to

discuss length of use issues with your doctor. I think Paula Begoun

covers this nicely on her site:



"human growth factor. It is important to make it clear that the topic

of human growth factor (HGF) is exceedingly complicated. The

physiological intricacies of the varying HGFs and their actions

challenge any layperson's comprehension. Nonetheless, because the use

of HGF seems to be the direction some skin-care companies are taking,

and because there is a large body of research showing its efficacy for

wound healing (but not for wrinkles), it does deserve comment.



HGFs make up a complex family of hormones that are produced by the

body to control cell growth and cell division in skin, blood, bone,

and nerve tissue. Most significantly, HGFs regulate the division and

reproduction of cells, and they also can influence the growth rate of

some cancers. HGFs occur naturally in the body but they are also

synthesized and used in medicine for a range of applications,

including wound healing and immune system stimulation. HGFs are

chemical messages that bind to receptor sites on the cell surface

(receptor sites are places where cells communicate with a substance to

let them know what or what not to do). HGFs must communicate with

cells to instruct them to activate the production of new cells, or to

instruct a cell to create new cells that have different functions.

Another way to think of HGFs is that they are messengers designed to

be received or "heard" by specific receptor sites or "ears" on the

cell. HGFs, such as transforming growth factor (TGF, stimulates

collagen production) or epidermal growth factor (EGF, stimulates skin

cell production), play significant roles in healing surgical wounds.

The main task of HGFs is to cause cell division, which is helpful;

however, at certain concentrations and lengths of application they can

cause cells to over-proliferate, which can cause cancer or other

health problems.



But what happens when you put HGFs on skin, particularly TGF and EGF,

which some companies claim their products contain? The risk is that

they could accelerate the growth of skin cancer by stimulating the

overproduction of skin cells. In the case of TGF, which stimulates

collagen production, it can encourage scarring. This is because scars

are the result of excessive collagen production, and if you make too

much collagen you get a scar or a knot on the skin such as a keloidal

scar. Most of the research on the issue of HGFs for skin has looked

primarily at the issue of wound healing, and at short-term use of

HGFs. In skin-care products, they would be used repeatedly, possibly

over long periods of time. A shortcoming of HGFs, according to an

article by Dr. Donald R. Owen in the March 1999 issue of Global

Cosmetic Industry, is that "The body produces these [HGFs] in

exquisitely small concentrations at just the right location and

time.... Actual growth factors such as [EGF and TGF-B] are [large]

configurations, which do not penetrate the skin.... They [also] lose

their activity within days in water or even as solids at normal

temperatures.... [Yet], even after all these complications, the

siren's song is too strong. We [the cosmetics chemists] will use

them." The research into HGFs is without question intriguing, but

there is much that's not known, especially in terms of long-term risk

or stability when they're used in cosmetics and applied to skin. In

this arena, if cosmetics companies continue to use HGFs, it is the

consumer who will be the guinea pig."





Here's a link to the Paula's Choice site:



http://www.paulaschoice-eu.com/dictionary.asp?TYPE=SEARCH&ID=H



Again, I don't mean to scare anyone. I just want to convince everyone

that it really might be best to discuss the use of EGF products with

your doctor even though these products are sold over the counter,

particularly since we have a disease associated with upregulated

inflammation to begin with.



Take care,

Dan



--- In rosacea-support@yahoogroups.com, "dfries2003"

wrote:

>

>

> Hi All,

>

> I'm no expert, but just to remind everyone, since EGF has the

> potential for upregulating the growth rates of cancer cells, please be

> sure to discuss the use of any topical with EGF in it with your

> dermatologist before using. At the very least, they should be able

> to help you keep a lookout for any signs of potential skin cancer

> while you're using it.

>

> http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=32387

>

> Also, I have not read any studies which suggest that rosacea itself

> may lead to increases in skin cancer rates, but inflammation has been

> implicated in increased rates, and since rosacea involves a chronic

> inflammatory response, we should probably be extra careful:

>

> http://www.cancernetwork.com/journals/oncology/o0202d.htm

>

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/life_sciences/report-32184.html

> http://www.skincancer.org/squamous/index.php

>

> Again, I'm no expert and don't really want to scare anyone. But be

> sure to talk this over with your dermatologist before using a product

> with EGF in it...

>

>

> Dan

>



















--

Please read the list highlights and FAQ: http://rosacea.ii.net

New ! Rosacea Support Resource Pages: http://rosacea-research.org/wiki



Yahoo! Groups Links



















---------------------------------

Share your photos with the people who matter at Yahoo! Canada Photos



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This talk about EGF is perplexing, isn't it?



I appreciate Artist's efforts to alert us to all sorts of helpful and

interesting topicals over the years, and agree with her view that people

with sensitive skin can benefit from being able to buy 'active ingredients'

cheaply and mix them into gentle bases. Yet I am also grateful to Dan for

alerting us to any possible risk with new products.



The distinction seems to be between cancer initiators (agents that may cause

healthy cells to become cancer cells) and cancer promoters (agents that

won't cause cancer to start, but may encourage it to grow faster). Surely no

one feels comfortable even considering that distinction?



I've read the comment that EGF has been tested for around 50 years, and it

appears that HGFs (human growth factors) are now being added to an

increasing range of products. Emily's question about whether cosmetic

companies would be "liable to law suits if this turns out to be a harmful

thing" almost answers itself. The firms must be pretty sure they're on safe

ground or they wouldn't be pouring it into products ... presumably.



Yet as Paula Begoun pointed out, "most of the research on the issue of HGFs

for skin has looked primarily at the issue of wound healing, and at

short-term use of HGFs. In skin-care products, they would be used

repeatedly, possibly over long periods of time." That is quite a difference.

It would be interesting to know how useful these HGFs really are to rosacea

skin.



On the Forum, in January, Dr Nase wrote a lot about the benefits of EGF in

Neocutis Bio-Restorative Skin Cream. It is massively expensive at $130.00

for 1.69 oz, but Dr Nase thought the stuff was so brilliant, he called it

"the biggest step forward yet in topicals" and urged rosaceans to find a way

to buy it. ("Right now, sell your gold teeth.") Cancer fears were dismissed

with, "For some reason the growth factors have no effect on the cancerous

cells that have an outrageously high metabolic rate."



Unfortunately, the general opinion seemed to be that Neocutis

Bio-Restorative was a major flop. There may be satisfied users who haven't

posted lately, but only nine people bothered to vote in a final grading

poll, and no one gave it a passing mark. 44% (4) said it had "no effect",

33% (3) said "not good", and 22% (2) said it was "terrible". Not a great

advertisement for EGF.



However, there's one complicating factor:  the Neocutis cream includes VEGF

(vascular endothelial growth factor), something that we have ALWAYS been

told rosaceans should avoid like the plague. In the past, there had been a

lot of talk that topicals containing EGF would be highly beneficial, just as

long as we took care to avoid products containing the disastrous VEGF. I've

no idea why Neocutis thought rosaceans should put VEGF on their skins - but

the Bio-Restorative cream was supposed to be mainly targeting wrinkles.



I suppose SkinActives (and similar firms?) deserve a round of applause for

at least making it possible for rosaceans to buy and test EGF so very

cheaply - and without the addition of the awful VEGF. At least rosaceans can

then quickly try, and perhaps discard, these things and know that they've

not added too much to the vast stack of money most of us have wasted over

the years on dud products.



Kind regards,



Aurelia

this is good Aurelia,

   one day......sometime in the future, i will forgo the egf for a period of time

to see if it does make any difference. I'm enjoying some nice skin with the

actives and don't want to experiment yet.

   Plus, i don't know if it makes the skin different for now and later, or just

for now.....and if it reverts back quickly, or days or months.....

   For now, like i said,,,,,,,it's too sweet!

   My first experiment will most likely be trying to use it less often...SOMEDAY

.

   I am also using the sea kelp,  licorice, horsechestnut, and glutathione.

   emily



Aurelia <aurelia.dawn@...> wrote:

   This talk about EGF is perplexing, isn't it?



I appreciate Artist's efforts to alert us to all sorts of helpful and

interesting topicals over the years, and agree with her view that people

with sensitive skin can benefit from being able to buy 'active ingredients'

cheaply and mix them into gentle bases. Yet I am also grateful to Dan for

alerting us to any possible risk with new products.



The distinction seems to be between cancer initiators (agents that may cause

healthy cells to become cancer cells) and cancer promoters (agents that

won't cause cancer to start, but may encourage it to grow faster). Surely no

one feels comfortable even considering that distinction?



I've read the comment that EGF has been tested for around 50 years, and it

appears that HGFs (human growth factors) are now being added to an

increasing range of products. Emily's question about whether cosmetic

companies would be "liable to law suits if this turns out to be a harmful

thing" almost answers itself. The firms must be pretty sure they're on safe

ground or they wouldn't be pouring it into products ... presumably.



Yet as Paula Begoun pointed out, "most of the research on the issue of HGFs

for skin has looked primarily at the issue of wound healing, and at

short-term use of HGFs. In skin-care products, they would be used

repeatedly, possibly over long periods of time." That is quite a difference.

It would be interesting to know how useful these HGFs really are to rosacea

skin.



On the Forum, in January, Dr Nase wrote a lot about the benefits of EGF in

Neocutis Bio-Restorative Skin Cream. It is massively expensive at $130.00

for 1.69 oz, but Dr Nase thought the stuff was so brilliant, he called it

"the biggest step forward yet in topicals" and urged rosaceans to find a way

to buy it. ("Right now, sell your gold teeth.") Cancer fears were dismissed

with, "For some reason the growth factors have no effect on the cancerous

cells that have an outrageously high metabolic rate."



Unfortunately, the general opinion seemed to be that Neocutis

Bio-Restorative was a major flop. There may be satisfied users who haven't

posted lately, but only nine people bothered to vote in a final grading

poll, and no one gave it a passing mark. 44% (4) said it had "no effect",

33% (3) said "not good", and 22% (2) said it was "terrible". Not a great

advertisement for EGF.



However, there's one complicating factor: the Neocutis cream includes VEGF

(vascular endothelial growth factor), something that we have ALWAYS been

told rosaceans should avoid like the plague. In the past, there had been a

lot of talk that topicals containing EGF would be highly beneficial, just as

long as we took care to avoid products containing the disastrous VEGF. I've

no idea why Neocutis thought rosaceans should put VEGF on their skins - but

the Bio-Restorative cream was supposed to be mainly targeting wrinkles.



I suppose SkinActives (and similar firms?) deserve a round of applause for

at least making it possible for rosaceans to buy and test EGF so very

cheaply - and without the addition of the awful VEGF. At least rosaceans can

then quickly try, and perhaps discard, these things and know that they've

not added too much to the vast stack of money most of us have wasted over

the years on dud products.



Kind regards,



Aurelia













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