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Dear Dr. Thawatchai,

Glad to hear from you.  Your project sounds very interesting.

Incidentally, I am in the process to review literature on qigong therapy
for mental health, and anxiety is one of areas to be covered there.  So
far, I have seen some evidence that qigong practice can reduce anxiety in
general, but I have not seen much of studies to apply qigong therapy in
treatment of  anxiety disorders.  This is partially due to the fact that
anxiety disorder is not considered very serious mental problem in Chinese
culture, where qigong was originated, and partially due to the acceptance
of qigong being low in the Western society, where anxiety disorders are
more prevalent.  Following is a summary of what I have done a while ago in
a grant proposal, for your reference.  I did observe significant reduction
of anxiety in my own studies of qigong therapy for arthritis and qigong
therapy for treatment of addiction. I will keep you updated if I see
something new.  If you do not have a copy of Qigong and Energy Medicine
Database yet, you should order a copy from Qigong Institute
(http://www.qigonginstitute.org), which includes more than 3400 references
in energy medicine.

Please keep me updated on your project.  Good luck with your re-search.

Kevin

(Qigong Therapy for Anxiety)
Few studies investigated the affective aspect of qigong therapy.  Pavek
(1988) noticed that qigong therapy was useful to patients suffering from
anxiety, depression, blocked grief and sleep disorders. Wang (1993) used
SCL-90 to examine the effect of qigong exercise on mental health, and found
that the group with more qigong practice reported significantly lower
scores in most of the mental health indicators, including anxiety and
depression. Shan et al. (1989) used qigong therapy to treat anxiety
disorder in psychiatric clinics and reported that 5 of the 8 patients were
anxiety free after one month of qigong practice, 2 reported significant
improvement, and only one failed to respond.  Wu et al (1999) at UMDNJ
examined the effect of qigong therapy on late-stage complex regional pain
syndrome, as well as on anxiety for each of the subjects in a randomized
placebo-controlled trial, and found that 91% in the genuine qigong group
reported less pain by the end of treatment, compared to 36% of the sham
qigong group. Anxiety was reduced in both groups over time, but the
reduction was significantly greater in the genuine qigong than in the sham
control group. The reduction of anxiety had a long-term effect while pain
relief was only short-term. The pre-existing differences in hypnotic
susceptibility cannot explain the significant and long-lasting improvement
in anxiety in the qigong group.

Reference:

Pavek RR, 1988.  Effects of qigong on psychosomatic and other emotionally
rooted disorders. The First World Conference of Academic Exchange on
Medical Qigong, Beijing, China, 1988: p. 150.

Shan H, Yan H1, Sheng H, & Hu, S. 1989.  "A preliminary evaluation on
Chineses qigong treatment of anxiety" The Second International Conference
on Qigong, Xian, China. 1989: 165.

Wang, J.  1993.  "Role of qigong on mental health." The Second World
Conference of Academic Exchange on Medical Qigong; Beijing, China. 1993: 93.

Wu, WH, Bandilla, E.  Ciccone, DS. Yang, J. Cheng SS, Carner, N. Wu, Y.
Shen, R. 1999. "Effects of Qigong on late-stage complex regional pain
syndrome."  Alternative Therapies in Health and Medicine, 5(1): 45-54.


At 11:15 PM 3/3/2005, you wrote:
>Dear Kevin Chen,
>
>        My name is Dr.Thawatchai Krisanaprakornkit  , from the Department
> of Psychiatry , Faculty of Medicine, KhonKaen University, Khon Kaen,
> Thailand. I'm conducting a systematic review in Cochrane Database of
> Systematic Review . The title of my review is " Meditation therapy for
> anxiety disorders"
>        I would like to ask you whether there are any reserch of Qigong in
> anxiety disorders patients. I just found only the research in depressive
> disorder which is very interesting because nowaday there are many studies
> of Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation in treating depression . And Qigong
> is also an energy medicine. I think the result is promising
>        I will looking forward to your suggestion.
>Yours Sincerely,
>Thawatchai Krisanaprakornkit.
>

Kevin W Chen, Ph.D. MPH
Associate Professor of Psychiatry
Robert Wood Johnson Medical School at UMDNJ
671 Hoes Lane, D-453
Piscataway,  NJ  08854

Tel: 732-235-4345;       Fax: 732-235-5818;
Email: chenke@...

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1037684-1,00.html

I have not found ANY decent studies done by Qigong supporters at all. Zero,
None.
Nada. ZIP.  If you know of any I would be very eager if you could cite ONE.

The study I point to in my email is a systematic variation of EEG in a given
direction....that of inclusion of slowwave delta in a waking state...as distinct
from
alpha, beta and theta....and the correlation of certain slow wave pulses with
documentable neuropeptide secretion pulses

The problem with most of the Qigong research, is that it is NOT substantive, not
sufficiently informed and unconvincing.....even to folks like me who are NOT
part of
the establishment.  For example, the research pertaining to the "immune system"
that
I have seen referenced in this group is patently "ridiculous"  completely
uninformed
and basically nonconvincing.   No wonder noone is interested or swayed by
it......it
shows no coherent knowledge of immune system theory.

So, I CHALLENGE you--in the midst of your complaints--to present one coherent,
well run, theoretically grounded EEG based study of the kind I describe....or
let's
please stop feeling sorry for ourselves.

RQ

RQ <dmaryla@...> wrote:
>
> I have not found ANY decent studies done by Qigong supporters at all.
> Zero, None. Nada. ZIP.  If you know of any I would be very eager if you
> could cite ONE.
>


I don't know much about any research paper related to EEG. But if you
are looking for some decent studies done by Qigong masters, then I would
recommand the Qigong research papers published by Dr. Yan Xin
( http://www.yanxinqigong.net/aboutdryan/index.htm ), e.g. :

Certain Physical Manifestation and Effects of External Qi
Journal of Scientific Exploration Vol.16 No.3, 2002
http://www.accessv.com/~yuan/yansci/time/2002_YanXin_Qigong_JSE.pdf

Protective effect of XY99-5038 on hydrogen peroxide induced
cell death in cultured retinal neurons
Life Sciences Volume 69, Issue 3, pp. 289-299, 8 June, 2001
http://www1.elsevier.com/cdweb/views/
article.htt?jnl=00243205&iss=3&vol=69&pii=S002432050101122

Measurement of The Effects of Qi on The Polarization Plane
of a Linearly Ploarized Laser Beam
Ziran Zazhi (Nature Journal), Vol. 11, pp. 563-566, 1988
http://www.accessv.com/~yuan/yansci/yanpol.html

External Qi Can Revive or Suppress Enzyme Activity of
Phosphatidylinositol 3-Kinase
Bulletin of Science, Technology &Society, Vol 22 No 5, 403-406 (2002)
http://bst.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/22/5/403

"Anomalous Organization of Random Events during an International
Qigong Meeting: Evidence for Group Consciousness or Accumulated
Qi Fields?
http://www.issseem.org/V8N1Abs.html

Laser Raman Observation on Tap Water Saline, Glucose and
Medemycine Solutions Under The Influence of The External Qi
Ziran Zazhi (Nature Journal), Vol. 11, pp. 567-571, 1988
http://www.accessv.com/~yuan/yansci/yanwat.html

Observations of The Effect of External Qi of Qigong on
The Ultraviolet Absorption of Nuclei Acids [DNA, RNA]
Ziran Zazhi, Vol. 11, pp. 647-649, 1988
http://www.accessv.com/~yuan/yansci/yanuv.html


Hope this helps,
Yuan



RQ <dmaryla@...> wrote:
>
> I have not found ANY decent studies done by Qigong supporters at all. Zero,
None.
> Nada. ZIP.  If you know of any I would be very eager if you could cite ONE.
>
> The study I point to in my email is a systematic variation of EEG in a given
> direction....that of inclusion of slowwave delta in a waking state...as
distinct from
> alpha, beta and theta....and the correlation of certain slow wave pulses with
> documentable neuropeptide secretion pulses
>
> The problem with most of the Qigong research, is that it is NOT substantive,
not
> sufficiently informed and unconvincing.....even to folks like me who are NOT
part of
> the establishment.  For example, the research pertaining to the "immune
system" that
> I have seen referenced in this group is patently "ridiculous"  completely
uninformed
> and basically nonconvincing.   No wonder noone is interested or swayed by
it......it
> shows no coherent knowledge of immune system theory.
>
> So, I CHALLENGE you--in the midst of your complaints--to present one coherent,
> well run, theoretically grounded EEG based study of the kind I describe....or
let's
> please stop feeling sorry for ourselves.
>
> RQ

Thanks for your information.  However, I'd just like to point out what I've
found in the
first abstract I looked up....dealing with PI3K which is very interesting to
many
researchers nowadays.  PI3K is a kinase enzyme which is present in [probably all
cells]
and has divergent functions in different cell types and functions which are
modulated
in various directions by diffrent external agents.  This is routinely
understood.  This
abstract seems to take this enzyme outside of any context. ...not bothering to
mention even the cell type in which the research was done....and not seeming to
be
aware of the established patheways by means of which [in particular cell types
and in
interaction with other particular cell types and through well-defined channels
of
interaction with precursor enzymes PI3K is modulated.  These researchers, in
order to
make their research have any impact on anyone who is familiar with molecular
biology would have to [a] indicate what cell types they were working with in
their
peculiar invitro culture....and [b] they could have.......and SHOULD
HAVE.....also
indicated what the status of other enzymes on the different pathways for
inactivation
or inactivation of PI3K  were influenced and how they were influenced......and
in which
cells.......since not all cells in the same culture [if they are of different
type] will show
the same pattern.

You can see how this study [as presented] in this abstract is essentiallya 
waste of
time to read...........and certainly to publish.......since it cannot convince
anyone of
anything ...........because of its patent lack of appareant
"thoughfulness".......except
that Qigong is "kewl"..........

Sorry to be so down......but that is my first impression on reading this piece
of
"research".......WHY WOULD ANYONE EVEN BOTHER DOING IT IF THEY UNDERSTOOD
ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT the mechanisms of actions, subtleties or relationship of
"PI3K" to other enzymes.?????????????????????

http://bst.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/22/5/403

RQ <dmaryla@...> wrote:
> This abstract seems to take this enzyme outside of any context. ...not
> bothering to mention even the cell type in which the research was done....
> and not seeming to be aware of the established patheways by means of which
> [in particular cell types and in interaction with other particularcelltypes
and through well-defined channels of interaction with precursorenzymes PI3K is
modulated.
>


    I would suggest you get a copy of the paper and see if you can find any
information regarding your concerns. And often the research papers also
provide contact addresses of the authors for further discussion and
communications, or even collaboration.


>  I have not found ANY decent studies done by Qigong supporters at all.
> Zero, None. Nada. ZIP.  If you know of any I would be very eager if you
> could cite ONE.
>


    There are quite a few of the Qigong research papers published by Dr. Yan
Xin included in my previous mail. I hope you can find at least one of them
to be up to your standard. If so, then your un-reasonable "Zero, None.
Nada. ZIP." statement would be totally biased and un-true.


     I am more interested in the experiment related to the physics. The one
I found quite up to my standard is the : External Qi Alters the Half-Life
Decay Rate of Radioactive Isotope Am241.

     I consider this experiment very very reliable because this Qi research
experiment used 2 different approaches/measuring methods and both got the
same result. One used the gamma-ray spectrometry to measure the gamma
ray, the other method used a solid-state nuclear track detector to
measure the alpha particles. 2 Different approaches reached the same
conclusion that through Dr. Yan Xin external Qi can influence the Decay
Rate of Radioactive Isotope Am241.


     Prof. Hans-Peter Duerr, past director of Werner Heisenberg Institute of
Theoretical Physics, successor to Werner Heisenberg and Albert Einstein,
delivering a keynote speech at the New Century First National Conference on
Bigu Manifestation, Health Effects and Scientific Research of Yan Xin Qigong
at the Pennsylvania State University, June 23-25, 2000. Prof. Duerr
proclaimed that "I am fascinated by these (Yan Xin Qigong) research results
....They are within my window of acceptance."
     ( http://www.yanxinqigong.net/research/duerr.htm )


Hope this helps,
Yuan



RQ <dmaryla@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for your information.  However, I'd just like to point out what I've
found in the
> first abstract I looked up....dealing with PI3K which is very interesting to
many
> researchers nowadays.  PI3K is a kinase enzyme which is present in [probably
all cells]
> and has divergent functions in different cell types and functions which are
modulated
> in various directions by diffrent external agents.  This is routinely
understood.  This
> abstract seems to take this enzyme outside of any context. ...not bothering to
> mention even the cell type in which the research was done....and not seeming
to be
> aware of the established patheways by means of which [in particular cell types
and in
> interaction with other particular cell types and through well-defined channels
of
> interaction with precursor enzymes PI3K is modulated.  These researchers, in
order to
> make their research have any impact on anyone who is familiar with molecular
> biology would have to [a] indicate what cell types they were working with in
their
> peculiar invitro culture....and [b] they could have.......and SHOULD
HAVE.....also
> indicated what the status of other enzymes on the different pathways for
inactivation
> or inactivation of PI3K  were influenced and how they were influenced......and
in which
> cells.......since not all cells in the same culture [if they are of different
type] will show
> the same pattern.
>
> You can see how this study [as presented] in this abstract is essentiallya 
waste of
> time to read...........and certainly to publish.......since it cannot convince
anyone of
> anything ...........because of its patent lack of appareant
"thoughfulness".......except
> that Qigong is "kewl"..........
>
> Sorry to be so down......but that is my first impression on reading this piece
of
> "research".......WHY WOULD ANYONE EVEN BOTHER DOING IT IF THEY UNDERSTOOD
> ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT the mechanisms of actions, subtleties or relationship of
> "PI3K" to other enzymes.?????????????????????
>
> http://bst.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/22/5/403

In response to my previous posting, you suggested that I go further and buy the
full article
whose abstract sounded like it was written by a highschool freshman in an intro
science
course.  If you know anything about "absracts" their point is to provide the
key, pivotal,
important piece of information about the study.  If these "scientists" had
anything
important to say they certainly should have said it in their abstracts.  If you
have read this
study, of which you are so fond, I would appreciate you sending it for our
mutual
inspection and discussion. I, for one, am not willing to spend $25 to buy it
based on the
naivete of their abstract.

As to questions of proof or the scientific background of Qigong, I, of course,
believe that
there are very real things happening during the experience and treatment of
qigong....personally I believe it has to do with Calcium fluctations and
regulation in
endothelial tissue and with impulses which are conveyable from practicioner to
patient.

  BUT when I read the kind of ABSOLUTE CRAP ....as below.........when the best
you folks can
do is tell me that some likely very nice old physics professer happens to say
that "qigong is
within his window of acceptance," you embarrass yourselves and you embarrass
QiGong. Is
this "scientific proof" because an old scientist says he does not see anything
to disprove.
Yes, it is within many people's window of acceptance....and partly it has to be
because there
hasn't been any rigorous research of any kind to prove or disprove it.  And, by
the way, just
"WHAT" is within this fellow's "window of acceptance'....Qigong as a whole, the
fact that
"qigong exist", that is can do such and such or something. Is that the best you
can do?
When people outside your "group" read this they only laugh and consider your
claims
ridiculous.

Shame on you "scientists' out there. These kind of silly statements do indeed
make a
mockery of qigong.


Here's the quote from the website you site>
"Is there any proof?
Yes.There is a growing amount of scientific literature pointingto the benefits
of chi kung.
The evidence is becoming so convincingthat even Prof. Hans-Peter Duerr, the
former
director of the Werner Heisenberg Institute of Theoretical Physics, said,"I am
fascinated by
these [Yanxin Qigong] research results.They are within my window of acceptance."

PS: it is also pathetic that you try to link this guy with Einstein..as if they
sat around and
had bagels and coffee in the morning and then exchanged their most intimate
thoughts.
Einstein's been dead for more than 50 years.....so what did they have in
common........oh, I
see they both might have passed through the same university 75 or 80 years
apart.  How
special!  That's why I encourage you to "GET A LIFE".

Dear RQ and Yuan,

I am kind of understanding both of your frustrations.  There are few
high-quality research of qigong or qigong therapy in the literature, but
most of good ones were published in Chinese and Japanese, and RQ has not
got chance to read them yet.  I am in the process to attempt filling up
that gap.

However, after reviewing various literature of qigong or energy medicine, I
did have the impression that there is indeed a general lack of high-quality
research in this area.  Among English literature, both quantity and quality
are very limited.  This was mainly due to the fact that qigong and energy
medicine have not got enough attention from the scientific community in
general.  Sometimes, there are more criticisms to the existent research
than the new initiation to explore further in the area.  Those who have
involved in scientific exploration of qigong generally lacked of support
and resource to conduct high-quality studies, and sometimes, lack of
knowledge and means to conduct high-quality studies due to their training
and limited understanding of qigong phenomenon....

I have always wondered why there were not more scientists who are seriously
interested in qigong phenomenon and the results of qigong therapy, given
the potential implication that the knowledge of qigong will challenge the
entire science and medicine.  Why could we not find more support and
funding in this area?

It is quite difficult conducting high-quality research in qigong and qigong
therapy, especially when there is not enough support and understanding of
this type of exploration.

However,  there are huge literature and research on the physiological and
psychological effects of meditation in general. -- in China, all
meditations are considered as a form of qigong.  RQ, for your information,
you may want to read the review on EEG effects of meditation from the
following web site, some of the studies are pretty good in quality, but
subject of research was not well defined:

http://www.noetic.org/research/medbiblio/ch2_2.htm

As to the studies of Prof. Lu Zhuyin with Dr. Yan Xin, there are some
disagreements about their quality and conclusions, even though we know that
Prof. Lu was a very serious scientist.  For example, his studies of
distance healing or distance qigong effect never used double-bind design
with randomization (since he was not trained to do so), which raised the
question of "experimenter effect" since everyone's consciousness and
intention, especially the investigators',  will contribute to the
"observed" outcomes -- this is a common sense in psychological
studies.   Please read my review of his book for more details on these
shortcomings.

http://www.wishus.org/research.asp?cat=research&index=8

I hope that more serious scientists will start being interested in qigong
phenomenon and qigong therapy soon through our persistent hardworking and
continuous research effort....

Best wishes!

Kevin Chen

At 03:57 PM 3/22/2005, RQ wrote:
>Thanks for your information.  However, I'd just like to point out what
>I've found in the
>first abstract I looked up....dealing with PI3K which is very interesting
>to many
>researchers nowadays.  PI3K is a kinase enzyme which is present in
>[probably all cells]
>and has divergent functions in different cell types and functions which
>are modulated
>in various directions by diffrent external agents.  This is routinely
>understood.  This
>abstract seems to take this enzyme outside of any context. ...not
>bothering to
>mention even the cell type in which the research was done....and not
>seeming to be
>aware of the established patheways by means of which [in particular cell
>types and in
>interaction with other particular cell types and through well-defined
>channels of
>interaction with precursor enzymes PI3K is modulated.  These researchers,
>in order to
>make their research have any impact on anyone who is familiar with molecular
>biology would have to [a] indicate what cell types they were working with
>in their
>peculiar invitro culture....and [b] they could have.......and SHOULD
>HAVE.....also
>indicated what the status of other enzymes on the different pathways for
>inactivation
>or inactivation of PI3K  were influenced and how they were
>influenced......and in which
>cells.......since not all cells in the same culture [if they are of
>different type] will show
>the same pattern.
>
>You can see how this study [as presented] in this abstract is
>essentiallya  waste of
>time to read...........and certainly to publish.......since it cannot
>convince anyone of
>anything ...........because of its patent lack of appareant
>"thoughfulness".......except
>that Qigong is "kewl"..........
>
>Sorry to be so down......but that is my first impression on reading this
>piece of
>"research".......WHY WOULD ANYONE EVEN BOTHER DOING IT IF THEY UNDERSTOOD
>ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT the mechanisms of actions, subtleties or
>relationship of
>"PI3K" to other enzymes.?????????????????????
>
>http://bst.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/22/5/403
>

Kevin W Chen, Ph.D. MPH
Associate Professor of Psychiatry
Robert Wood Johnson Medical School at UMDNJ
671 Hoes Lane, D-453
Piscataway,  NJ  08854

Tel: 732-235-4345;       Fax: 732-235-5818;
Email: chenke@...

Kevin Chen <chenke@...> wrote:
>
> distance healing or distance qigong effect never used double-bind design
>

Kevin,

      Please note that the Dr. Yan's Qigong research experiment :

          External Qi affected the Laser Raman Spectra of Liquid Water
          and Water Solutions

      was done with the  "Double Blind"  method.


Best,
Yuan


Kevin Chen <chenke@...> wrote:
>
> Dear RQ and Yuan,
>
> I am kind of understanding both of your frustrations.  There are few
> high-quality research of qigong or qigong therapy in the literature, but
> most of good ones were published in Chinese and Japanese, and RQ has not
> got chance to read them yet.  I am in the process to attempt filling up
> that gap.
>
> However, after reviewing various literature of qigong or energy medicine, I
> did have the impression that there is indeed a general lack of high-quality
> research in this area.  Among English literature, both quantity and quality
> are very limited.  This was mainly due to the fact that qigong and energy
> medicine have not got enough attention from the scientific community in
> general.  Sometimes, there are more criticisms to the existent research
> than the new initiation to explore further in the area.  Those who have
> involved in scientific exploration of qigong generally lacked of support
> and resource to conduct high-quality studies, and sometimes, lack of
> knowledge and means to conduct high-quality studies due to their training
> and limited understanding of qigong phenomenon....
>
> I have always wondered why there were not more scientists who are seriously
> interested in qigong phenomenon and the results of qigong therapy, given
> the potential implication that the knowledge of qigong will challenge the
> entire science and medicine.  Why could we not find more support and
> funding in this area?
>
> It is quite difficult conducting high-quality research in qigong and qigong
> therapy, especially when there is not enough support and understanding of
> this type of exploration.
>
> However,  there are huge literature and research on the physiological and
> psychological effects of meditation in general. -- in China, all
> meditations are considered as a form of qigong.  RQ, for your information,
> you may want to read the review on EEG effects of meditation from the
> following web site, some of the studies are pretty good in quality, but
> subject of research was not well defined:
>
> http://www.noetic.org/research/medbiblio/ch2_2.htm
>
> As to the studies of Prof. Lu Zhuyin with Dr. Yan Xin, there are some
> disagreements about their quality and conclusions, even though we know that
> Prof. Lu was a very serious scientist.  For example, his studies of
> distance healing or distance qigong effect never used double-bind design
> with randomization (since he was not trained to do so), which raised the
> question of "experimenter effect" since everyone's consciousness and
> intention, especially the investigators',  will contribute to the
> "observed" outcomes -- this is a common sense in psychological
> studies.   Please read my review of his book for more details on these
> shortcomings.
>
> http://www.wishus.org/research.asp?cat=research&index=8
>
> I hope that more serious scientists will start being interested in qigong
> phenomenon and qigong therapy soon through our persistent hardworking and
> continuous research effort....
>
> Best wishes!
>
> Kevin Chen
>

OK, Yuan, you seem to be the "advocate" repeating the mantra for this Yan Xin
Qigong, so I
urge you ....and  anyone else on this website who might be interested in this
Yan Xin
"fluff"..to look at the  website link which you sent me pertaining to "research"
produced to
justify your apparently  diehard "belief" in this stuff........Note, if you
will, as far as I can
detect, that there is not a single piece of  documented research on their
website, not a
single link to a completed and detailed  study......nothing more than a couple
of
photos.....one of them of this poor Duerr fellow  and a series of one-liner
claims about the
research.  All the folks who put this Yan Xin  Qigong website are missing are
big red
noses......and they'd be complete "clowns".

Or perhaps I am wrong....and I've missed all those highly scientific detailed
research efforts
hidden somewhere on this site which you sent me.......Please let me know.....or
perhaps
they had a deeper, wiser motive for not revealing their research literature,
linking to it or
making anything more than meaningless cocktail party style "claims"????

RQ

http://www.yanxinqigong.net/research/index.htm

Hi-- Are you familiar with:

1.                    Kiang, J. G., D. Marotta, M. Wirkus, M. Wirkus,
and W.B. Jonas. (2002). External Bioenergy Increases Intracellular Free
Calcium Concentration and Reduces Cellular Response to Heat Stress.
_J_.  _Investigative_ _Medicine_ 50, 38-44.


RQ wrote:

>
>
> OK, Yuan, you seem to be the "advocate" repeating the mantra for this
> Yan Xin Qigong, so I
> urge you ....and  anyone else on this website who might be interested
> in this Yan Xin
> "fluff"..to look at the  website link which you sent me pertaining to
> "research" produced to
> justify your apparently  diehard "belief" in this stuff........Note,
> if you will, as far as I can
> detect, that there is not a single piece of  documented research on
> their website, not a
> single link to a completed and detailed  study......nothing more than
> a couple of
> photos.....one of them of this poor Duerr fellow  and a series of
> one-liner claims about the
> research.  All the folks who put this Yan Xin  Qigong website are
> missing are big red
> noses......and they'd be complete "clowns".
>
> Or perhaps I am wrong....and I've missed all those highly scientific
> detailed research efforts
> hidden somewhere on this site which you sent me.......Please let me
> know.....or perhaps
> they had a deeper, wiser motive for not revealing their research
> literature, linking to it or
> making anything more than meaningless cocktail party style "claims"????
>
> RQ
>
> http://www.yanxinqigong.net/research/index.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Dear RQ,

I am not very comfortable with the tone you are talking about others'
research of qigong.  It is easy to criticize others of their weakness and
shortcoming, but it is completely different matter if you start doing it
yourself.  Please keep in mind that most of researchers in qigong studies
conducted those "simple-minded" studies with the risk of losing their
reputations or even their jobs, because many mainstream "scientists" and
administrators still consider qigong a religion or a superstitious
spiritual movement.

We should not hurt each other's feeling any more, we need being united to
think of the research per se.

Indeed, we need thoughtful criticisms to improve the future research, but
we need more constructive suggestions on how the research should be done in
order to convince other scientists in the field that this is something real
and useful, and we need conduct serious research about it.

Can you give us a first name to handle?  What is your training background?

I would like to propose something that everyone may contribute:  If you had
unlimited funds and enough resource, what kind of research topics and
methodological design would you like to use to demonstrate the objective
existence of "qi", which is supposed to have the characteristics of matter
(such as Gamma ray, infrasonic sound, low-frequency magnetic field etc),
energy and information?  I hope that you (or we) can design a study that
can be successfully accepted for publication in "Nature" or "Science".

I hope that everyone in this list will start thinking of such a project, or
such a series of studies.  Can we accomplish this goal in 5 years? or 10 years?

You may be better off if you are also a serious qigong practitioner, since
qigong after all is more of a discipline of experience than a discipline of
research.  You would not have much methodological break through for the
multi-dimensional nature of qigong until you experience it yourself.

Good luck with your exploration!  All best wishes!

Kevin


At 11:21 PM 3/27/2005, RQ wrote:

>OK, Yuan, you seem to be the "advocate" repeating the mantra for this Yan
>Xin Qigong, so I
>urge you ....and  anyone else on this website who might be interested in
>this Yan Xin
>"fluff"..to look at the  website link which you sent me pertaining to
>"research" produced to
>justify your apparently  diehard "belief" in this stuff........Note, if
>you will, as far as I can
>detect, that there is not a single piece of  documented research on their
>website, not a
>single link to a completed and detailed  study......nothing more than a
>couple of
>photos.....one of them of this poor Duerr fellow  and a series of
>one-liner claims about the
>research.  All the folks who put this Yan Xin  Qigong website are missing
>are big red
>noses......and they'd be complete "clowns".
>
>Or perhaps I am wrong....and I've missed all those highly scientific
>detailed research efforts
>hidden somewhere on this site which you sent me.......Please let me
>know.....or perhaps
>they had a deeper, wiser motive for not revealing their research
>literature, linking to it or
>making anything more than meaningless cocktail party style "claims"????
>
>RQ
>
>http://www.yanxinqigong.net/research/index.htm

RQ <dmaryla@...> wrote:
>
> Or perhaps I am wrong....and I've missed all those highly scientific
> detailed research efforts hidden somewhere on this site which you
> sent me.......Please let me know..
>


    I don't think they have any links on their official site pointing to
any of Dr. Yan Xin's research papers. I have already provided you with
some links to some of Dr. Yan's research papers in my previous mail
( Attached below ). You can simply follow my links instead of their site.
Some of them need to pay to get details.


Hope this helps,
Yuan

------- Forwarded message -------
From: yuan <yuan123@...>
To: qiresearch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [qiresearch] sorry to disagree
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:35:23 -0500

RQ <dmaryla@...> wrote:
>
> I have not found ANY decent studies done by Qigong supporters at all.
> Zero, None. Nada. ZIP.  If you know of any I would be very eager if you
> could cite ONE.
>


I don't know much about any research paper related to EEG. But if you
are looking for some decent studies done by Qigong masters, then I would
recommand the Qigong research papers published by Dr. Yan Xin
( http://www.yanxinqigong.net/aboutdryan/index.htm ), e.g. :

Certain Physical Manifestation and Effects of External Qi
Journal of Scientific Exploration Vol.16 No.3, 2002
http://www.accessv.com/~yuan/yansci/time/2002_YanXin_Qigong_JSE.pdf

Protective effect of XY99-5038 on hydrogen peroxide induced
cell death in cultured retinal neurons
Life Sciences Volume 69, Issue 3, pp. 289-299, 8 June, 2001
http://www1.elsevier.com/cdweb/views/article.htt?jnl=00243205&iss=3&vol=69&pii=S\
002432050101122

Measurement of The Effects of Qi on The Polarization Plane
of a Linearly Ploarized Laser Beam
Ziran Zazhi (Nature Journal), Vol. 11, pp. 563-566, 1988
http://www.accessv.com/~yuan/yansci/yanpol.html

External Qi Can Revive or Suppress Enzyme Activity of
Phosphatidylinositol 3-Kinase
Bulletin of Science, Technology &Society, Vol 22 No 5, 403-406 (2002)
http://bst.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/22/5/403

"Anomalous Organization of Random Events during an International
Qigong Meeting: Evidence for Group Consciousness or Accumulated
Qi Fields?
http://www.issseem.org/V8N1Abs.html

Laser Raman Observation on Tap Water Saline, Glucose and
Medemycine Solutions Under The Influence of The External Qi
Ziran Zazhi (Nature Journal), Vol. 11, pp. 567-571, 1988
http://www.accessv.com/~yuan/yansci/yanwat.html

Observations of The Effect of External Qi of Qigong on
The Ultraviolet Absorption of Nuclei Acids [DNA, RNA]
Ziran Zazhi, Vol. 11, pp. 647-649, 1988
http://www.accessv.com/~yuan/yansci/yanuv.html


Hope this helps,
Yuan



RQ <dmaryla@...> wrote:
>
> I have not found ANY decent studies done by Qigong supporters at all. Zero,
None.
> Nada. ZIP.  If you know of any I would be very eager if you could cite ONE.
>
> The study I point to in my email is a systematic variation of EEG in a given
> direction....that of inclusion of slowwave delta in a waking state...as
distinct from
> alpha, beta and theta....and the correlation of certain slow wave pulses with
> documentable neuropeptide secretion pulses
>
> The problem with most of the Qigong research, is that it is NOT substantive,
not
> sufficiently informed and unconvincing.....even to folks like me who are NOT
part of
> the establishment.  For example, the research pertaining to the "immune
system" that
> I have seen referenced in this group is patently "ridiculous"  completely
uninformed
> and basically nonconvincing.   No wonder noone is interested or swayed by
it......it
> shows no coherent knowledge of immune system theory.
>
> So, I CHALLENGE you--in the midst of your complaints--to present one coherent,
> well run, theoretically grounded EEG based study of the kind I describe....or
let's
> please stop feeling sorry for ourselves.
>
> RQ








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Linda,

Thanks for referring this article to me.  And others who have come up with one
or another
of research by these folks.  I do know that they have done various research at
one time or
another.  What was striking to me was that on their own website they would not
refer
anyone to it, link to it, or describe it in any meaningful way.   Isn't that
ODD?

I will look up the reference you suggested, but must wonder about how they
"operate"
when they refuse to put this material on their own website????

So thanks again......

RQ

Thanks for the study you referred me to  [abstract below]...I had thought that
you were
referring me [along with other emails from this site I have just received] to
studies by the
Yan Xin Qigong people.

This study is interesting...and a good start.........my own intuition indicates
that they might
with even better results look at various typical endothelial cells and/or
monocyte-derived
cells or macrophages...The intracellular calcium levels are a complex dynamic
system...which regulates much of cells function and cell synchrony.......

I will send you some very interesting articles on this research area which has
literally
exploded in the past decade.....and which I truly believe could lead us to the
"Key" to
Qigong's effects in the body.

Thanks,
RQ

J Investig Med. 2002 Jan;50(1):38-45.

External bioenergy increases intracellular free calcium concentration and
reduces cellular
response to heat stress.

Kiang JG, Marotta D, Wirkus M, Wirkus M, Jonas WB.

Department of Cellular Injury, Walter Reed Army Institute of Research, Silver
Spring, Md
20910-7500, USA. Juliann.Kiang@...

BACKGROUND: External bioenergy (energy emitted from the body) can influence a
variety of
biological activities. It has been shown to enhance immunity, promote normal
cell
proliferation, increase tumor cell death, and accelerate bone fracture recovery.
In this
study, we investigated whether external bioenergy could alter intracellular
calcium
concentration ([Ca2+]i, an important factor in signal transduction) and regulate
the cellular
response to heat stress in cultured human lymphoid Jurkat T cells. METHODS: A
practitioner
emitted bioenergy toward tubes of cultured Jurkat cells for one 15-minute
period. [Ca2+]i
was measured spectrofluorometrically using the fluorescent probe indo-1. The
heat shock
protein 72 kd was detected using 35S-methionine prepulse and Western blot
analysis.
RESULTS: The resting [Ca2+]i in Jurkat T cells was 90+/-3 nM in the presence of
external
calcium. The removal of external calcium decreased the resting [Ca2+]i to 54+/-2
nM,
indicating that Ca2+ entry from the external source is important for maintaining
the basal
level of [Ca2+]i. In the presence of external Ca2+, treatment of Jurkat T cells
with external
bioenergy for 15 minutes increased [Ca2+]i by 22+/-3%. [Ca2+]i remained elevated
in
these cells for 2 hours. Surprisingly, we also observed that [Ca2+]i increased
by 11+/-1% if
cells were simply placed in the area where external bioenergy had been used.
This lingering
effect of external bioenergy dissipated within 24 hours. Treatment with external
bioenergy
reduced cellular responses to heat stress and did not induce the production of
heat shock
protein 72 kd, which is known to provide cytoprotection. CONCLUSIONS: These
results
suggest that externally applied bioenergy can upregulate [Ca2+]i and
downregulate the
cellular response to stress. The association between the external bioenergy and
increases
in [Ca2+]i may be a good index for detecting presence of bioenergy.

Thanks for the EEG info, Kevin, but as you mention these studies are not
"well-defined" and
that means the folks on the supposedly WEstern science end of this do not know
any more
about the "other side' than the ardent Qigong advocates.  Not "well defined"
means not well
thought out......I am very familiar with much of the research......and it is
patent nonsense to
consider "meditation" to be all one thing....especially in its EEG
correlates.....anyone who
has looked closely realizes the yoga, TM, zen all produces different
characeristic EEG
patterns.  Most importantly you will note in this "chapter' that they fail to
make any mention
at all of "delta' rhythms, which are the slowest.....normally only associated
with deep sleep,
and WHOSE CONSPICUOUS REPRESENTATION IS THE CHARACTERISTIC OF EXTERNAL QI
GONG TREATMENT.  I have seen this on several occasions in EEG labs, sleep
disorders labs
and even QEEG analysis. This usual freaks out the traditional Western sleep
researchers who
believe devoutly that DELTA waves only appear in deepest stages of Sleep.  But
you can
throw out everything in that chapter, if you are interested in discovering EEG
correleates of
QiGong....it is DELTA which is the amazing characteristic aspect of
Qigong.......for one
thing, because external Qigong is not at all like yoga or TM....not simple
meditation at all....

  Here we, regrettably, have more CRAP --this time coming from the shabby Western
scientists......the same cardinal mistake........as the Qigong practicioners..to
make glib,
unexamined, ,unthoughtout, not well-defined assumptions about the concepts and
methodologies of the "other side'.  Once you do that, whatever you publish is
bound to be
laughed at by those very folks you are trying to convince.

I suppose you see I'm still quite discontent with the level of Qigong
study.........as long as
its done by those who refuse to engage in due diligence and understand the
subtletiles of
the concepts of the "other side' of research which is not their primary
bailiwick.

Thanks for your reference,
RQ

PS: Remember Qigong is rooted in Waking DELTA.........not alpha, beta, or theta,
all of
which play a part.........but the characteristic EEG shows delta waves.  That
chapter is
basically BS.

Hi to all energy students, "If the energy works then use it for good and
teach others to use it for good and stuff the research because any
scientific research can be ripped apart by a good sceptic" e.g. Newton's 3
laws of motion are wrong ask Einstein (if you can LOL) but we can still use
them.
People do not ask how does this work when using their mobile phones and it
should be the same with chi/ki. Ask a for research on how a simple fridge
magnet works and you will end up with theories like warping space and
invisible graviton partials or a big question mark.
I use energy to increase and decrease strength of students and it is now
working 99.9% of the time (Energies change and this needs to be in the
equation) this can easily be tested and I do so most days. Maybe that is an
easier path then looking at molecular levels.

Some energy fundamentals for research:-

1/ location (Ley lines, power lines, transmitters etc.)
2/ Intent
3/ Date of month (Full moon etc.)
4/ Changing energies (The Tsunami messed up the planets energy)
5/ The out come maybe what you need and not what you asked for (Pressure
point KO or no touch KO, if the student needs healing energy then that's
what they will get and your ego has to know this)
6/ Man made energies (Traditional energy arts are out of date because of the
man made energies and the change in natural energies)
7/ Body shape (Energy can be gained by an "Aerial method" so a persons body
shape, stance, hand position etc. can make a difference)
8/ Aerials (Anything  from Tattoos to jewry can make a difference)
9/ Movement (Jumping jacks will drain the energy from the body, even some
traditional Chi Kung movements will not work today)
10/ Intuition
etc.

Cheers
GM Mark







----- Original Message -----
From: "Linda Lazarus" <lindalazarus@...>
To: "RQ" <dmaryla@...>; <qiresearch@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 5:52 AM
Subject: Re: [qiresearch] re:sorry to disagree..........


>
>
> Hi-- Are you familiar with:
>
> 1.                    Kiang, J. G., D. Marotta, M. Wirkus, M. Wirkus,
> and W.B. Jonas. (2002). External Bioenergy Increases Intracellular Free
> Calcium Concentration and Reduces Cellular Response to Heat Stress.
> _J_.  _Investigative_ _Medicine_ 50, 38-44.
>
>
> RQ wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> OK, Yuan, you seem to be the "advocate" repeating the mantra for this
>> Yan Xin Qigong, so I
>> urge you ....and  anyone else on this website who might be interested
>> in this Yan Xin
>> "fluff"..to look at the  website link which you sent me pertaining to
>> "research" produced to
>> justify your apparently  diehard "belief" in this stuff........Note,
>> if you will, as far as I can
>> detect, that there is not a single piece of  documented research on
>> their website, not a
>> single link to a completed and detailed  study......nothing more than
>> a couple of
>> photos.....one of them of this poor Duerr fellow  and a series of
>> one-liner claims about the
>> research.  All the folks who put this Yan Xin  Qigong website are
>> missing are big red
>> noses......and they'd be complete "clowns".
>>
>> Or perhaps I am wrong....and I've missed all those highly scientific
>> detailed research efforts
>> hidden somewhere on this site which you sent me.......Please let me
>> know.....or perhaps
>> they had a deeper, wiser motive for not revealing their research
>> literature, linking to it or
>> making anything more than meaningless cocktail party style "claims"????
>>
>> RQ
>>
>> http://www.yanxinqigong.net/research/index.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
>> qiresearch-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
>
>
>

RQ

I must have missed the first thread of you message, I'm not sure why
you
are being so negative in your emails.

I don't think you will find any willing volunteers to help you, if
your
reply/post that are constantly sarcastic and negative attacks via
email.

Just My Thoughts
Todd Ronald

RQ

You make good points about the lack of scientific credibility of many of the
qigong studies that have been published in non-scientific, non peer-reviewed
literature.  However, I believe others in this group will pay more attention to
your points - and you might be more effective at moving the field to higher
quality, more credible work if you would drop the sarcastic tone of your
postings that I find border on insulting.  Many of the people interested in this
field do not have classical scientific backgrounds.  But that doesn't make them
stupid.  Most, I suspect, are open to learning and discussing what would make a
good study.  Unfortunately, there aren't many fora for this kind of open
collaboration.  Push for the higher good ...

Matthew Klee

-----Original Message-----
From: RQ [mailto:dmaryla@...]
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 11:21 PM
To: qiresearch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [qiresearch] re:sorry to disagree..........





OK, Yuan, you seem to be the "advocate" repeating the mantra for this Yan Xin
Qigong, so I
urge you ....and  anyone else on this website who might be interested in this
Yan Xin
"fluff"..to look at the  website link which you sent me pertaining to "research"
produced to
justify your apparently  diehard "belief" in this stuff........Note, if you
will, as far as I can
detect, that there is not a single piece of  documented research on their
website, not a
single link to a completed and detailed  study......nothing more than a couple
of
photos.....one of them of this poor Duerr fellow  and a series of one-liner
claims about the
research.  All the folks who put this Yan Xin  Qigong website are missing are
big red
noses......and they'd be complete "clowns".

Or perhaps I am wrong....and I've missed all those highly scientific detailed
research efforts
hidden somewhere on this site which you sent me.......Please let me know.....or
perhaps
they had a deeper, wiser motive for not revealing their research literature,
linking to it or
making anything more than meaningless cocktail party style "claims"????

RQ

http://www.yanxinqigong.net/research/index.htm









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Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi Kevin,

A collaborative approach to research is a great idea!!!!!!
Let me start by suggesting a different type of research--- How about a
surveying people who have recived a transmission of external qi from a
master and asking what they have experienced? Maybe use some of the
scales that people use to test the validity of psychiatric
interventions? Or do brain scans to see if there are changes?

A question about this way of proceeding--How do people doing psychiatric
research deal with claims that positive results from interventions are
no more than the placebo effect?
Thanks.
Linda
Kevin Chen wrote:

> Dear RQ,
>
> I am not very comfortable with the tone you are talking about others'
> research of qigong.  It is easy to criticize others of their weakness and
> shortcoming, but it is completely different matter if you start doing it
> yourself.  Please keep in mind that most of researchers in qigong studies
> conducted those "simple-minded" studies with the risk of losing their
> reputations or even their jobs, because many mainstream "scientists" and
> administrators still consider qigong a religion or a superstitious
> spiritual movement.
>
> We should not hurt each other's feeling any more, we need being united to
> think of the research per se.
>
> Indeed, we need thoughtful criticisms to improve the future research, but
> we need more constructive suggestions on how the research should be
> done in
> order to convince other scientists in the field that this is something
> real
> and useful, and we need conduct serious research about it.
>
> Can you give us a first name to handle?  What is your training background?
>
> I would like to propose something that everyone may contribute:  If
> you had
> unlimited funds and enough resource, what kind of research topics and
> methodological design would you like to use to demonstrate the objective
> existence of "qi", which is supposed to have the characteristics of
> matter
> (such as Gamma ray, infrasonic sound, low-frequency magnetic field etc),
> energy and information?  I hope that you (or we) can design a study that
> can be successfully accepted for publication in "Nature" or "Science".
>
> I hope that everyone in this list will start thinking of such a
> project, or
> such a series of studies.  Can we accomplish this goal in 5 years? or
> 10 years?
>
> You may be better off if you are also a serious qigong practitioner,
> since
> qigong after all is more of a discipline of experience than a
> discipline of
> research.  You would not have much methodological break through for the
> multi-dimensional nature of qigong until you experience it yourself.
>
> Good luck with your exploration!  All best wishes!
>
> Kevin
>
>
> At 11:21 PM 3/27/2005, RQ wrote:
>
> >OK, Yuan, you seem to be the "advocate" repeating the mantra for this
> Yan
> >Xin Qigong, so I
> >urge you ....and  anyone else on this website who might be interested in
> >this Yan Xin
> >"fluff"..to look at the  website link which you sent me pertaining to
> >"research" produced to
> >justify your apparently  diehard "belief" in this stuff........Note, if
> >you will, as far as I can
> >detect, that there is not a single piece of  documented research on
> their
> >website, not a
> >single link to a completed and detailed  study......nothing more than a
> >couple of
> >photos.....one of them of this poor Duerr fellow  and a series of
> >one-liner claims about the
> >research.  All the folks who put this Yan Xin  Qigong website are
> missing
> >are big red
> >noses......and they'd be complete "clowns".
> >
> >Or perhaps I am wrong....and I've missed all those highly scientific
> >detailed research efforts
> >hidden somewhere on this site which you sent me.......Please let me
> >know.....or perhaps
> >they had a deeper, wiser motive for not revealing their research
> >literature, linking to it or
> >making anything more than meaningless cocktail party style "claims"????
> >
> >RQ
> >
> >http://www.yanxinqigong.net/research/index.htm
>
>
>
>
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Methinks someone needs to learn to debate without so much venom and
sarcasm.

PP

On Mar 27, 2005, at 11:21 PM, RQ wrote:

> OK, Yuan, you seem to be the "advocate" repeating the mantra for this
> Yan Xin Qigong, so I
> urge you ....and  anyone else on this website who might be interested
> in this Yan Xin
> "fluff"..to look at the  website link which you sent me pertaining to
> "research" produced to
> justify your apparently  diehard "belief" in this stuff........Note,
> if you will, as far as I can
> detect, that there is not a single piece of  documented research on
> their website, not a
> single link to a completed and detailed  study......nothing more than
> a couple of
> photos.....one of them of this poor Duerr fellow  and a series of
> one-liner claims about the
> research.  All the folks who put this Yan Xin  Qigong website are
> missing are big red
> noses......and they'd be complete "clowns".
>
> Or perhaps I am wrong....and I've missed all those highly scientific
> detailed research efforts
> hidden somewhere on this site which you sent me.......Please let me
> know.....or perhaps
> they had a deeper, wiser motive for not revealing their research
> literature, linking to it or
> making anything more than meaningless cocktail party style "claims"????
>
> RQ
>
> http://www.yanxinqigong.net/research/index.htm

Dear Yaz,

Thank you for your answer. It is very helpful.
Does anyone know how the efficacy of psychiatric interventions are judged?
Also, does anyone know what the "mechanism of action" for talk therapy is?
(I may be wrong, but I think that good psychotherapists may  really be
the qigong masters of Western medicine.)
Best,
Linda
Y. Azid wrote:

>linda lazarus,
>
>your suggstion is a good one although too subjective.
>a sufficient part (unknown) in taijiquan and qigong is
>the mass hypnosis or mass hysteria appeal associated
>with dealing with a known master.
>
>Have a sham master do the same as the real master and
>ask the questions about the qi emission they received.
>With this comparison, one MAY see a better result.
>Another equation is the personality of the the master,
>their dress, etc.  People respond (place importance
>based on ther exposure of the external.  Better yet
>have a third party introduce the masters (sham and
>real) saying they will receive qi.
>
>Again, not foolproof. The placebo effect (wanting to
>be healed) can do wonders if even the master is a
>sham!!!
>
>even better, how does the healing (purported qi
>emision) affect cellular immunity.  How is blood
>chemistry/heamtology affected?
>
>Have you seen the recent falungong results on
>immunity?
>Again, emotionality will affect how and what benefit
>we receive!! politic vs personal gong!
>
>yaz
>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________
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<matthew_klee@...> wrote:
>
> many of the qigong studies that have been published in non-scientific,
> non peer-reviewed literature.
>


    True. As for the research papers published in China by Dr. Yan, I excerpt
the following from the book by Lu ZuYin "Scientific Qigong Exploration" on
page 118 and 119 :

    "the edit-in-chief was extremely cautious. He invited, following our
suggestion, several scientists with some qigong knowledge to review our
articles. At the same time, he asked more scientists without any qigong
knowledge to join the review. There were about ten people who participated
in the first review of the articles, with half pros and half cons........
At that moment, an outright denial seemed not possible, so more and more
scientists were invited to review these papers -- a total of 28 scientists
had participated in the review of these papers as referees. It was
unprecedented in the history of this journal that so many scientists were
invited to review only a few papers........."


Best,
Yuan


<matthew_klee@...> wrote:
>
> RQ
>
> You make good points about the lack of scientific credibility of many of the
qigong studies that have been published in non-scientific, non peer-reviewed
literature.  However, I believe others in this group will pay more attention to
your points - and you might be more effective at moving the field to higher
quality, more credible work if you would drop the sarcastic tone of your
postings that I find border on insulting.  Many of the people interested in this
field do not have classical scientific backgrounds.  But that doesn't make them
stupid.  Most, I suspect, are open to learning and discussing what would make a
good study.  Unfortunately, there aren't many fora for this kind of open
collaboration.  Push for the higher good ...
>
> Matthew Klee
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RQ [mailto:dmaryla@...]
> Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 11:21 PM
> To: qiresearch@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [qiresearch] re:sorry to disagree..........
>
>
>
>
>
> OK, Yuan, you seem to be the "advocate" repeating the mantra for this Yan Xin
Qigong, so I
> urge you ....and  anyone else on this website who might be interested in this
Yan Xin
> "fluff"..to look at the  website link which you sent me pertaining to
"research" produced to
> justify your apparently  diehard "belief" in this stuff........Note, if you
will, as far as I can
> detect, that there is not a single piece of  documented research on their
website, not a
> single link to a completed and detailed  study......nothing more than a couple
of
> photos.....one of them of this poor Duerr fellow  and a series of one-liner
claims about the
> research.  All the folks who put this Yan Xin  Qigong website are missing are
big red
> noses......and they'd be complete "clowns".
>
> Or perhaps I am wrong....and I've missed all those highly scientific detailed
research efforts
> hidden somewhere on this site which you sent me.......Please let me
know.....or perhaps
> they had a deeper, wiser motive for not revealing their research literature,
linking to it or
> making anything more than meaningless cocktail party style "claims"????
>
> RQ
>
> http://www.yanxinqigong.net/research/index.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Posted on the QI Message Board by Yuri79k
http://pub21.ezboard.com/fqigonginstitutefrm3
Send replies to qiresearch@yahoogroups.com
========================================================

  Two points... I am not surprised that there is a lot
of frustration surrounding "scientific studies" of
qigong. There is a distinct air of non-reality to the
studies. Two basic issues are immediately obvious to
anyone trained in science.

The first issue is the continual championing of qi as
a new force or energy (and this is even a problem:
decide which it is since they are different!) that is
"outside" of present science.

From a scientific standpiont this is ridiculous. Right
away you have said you are studying something that is
not part of any present scientific framework so you
are not doing science. If this is your hypothesis, you
must perform a proper experiment to prove that qi (its
effects or mechanisms) cannot be explained by any
presently accepted energies or forces. This would
imply setting up a protocol and set-up that purposely
exclude presently understood energies and forces. Or
one would have to demonstrate, repeatedly, effects
that defy present theory.

I have yet to see one "science" experiment performed
by those who champion qi as being outside the present
framework that meets these criteria. In other words,
the experiments, to date, are pseudo-science and their
results are garbage.

The second issue concerns the reality of what is being
studied. If we wish to stick to science and its
framework, in order to use the existing research and
theoretical foundation, then we must accept the
reality of present understanding of physiology and
basic science. For example, internal energy, even the
enhanced flow of an advanced practitioner, must be
generated by existing structures and mechanisms. One
would theorized that on a cellular level these must be
presently understood structures such as the
mitochondria, DNA, RNA, and cell walls.

Therefore, if one looks at the plethora of existing
research then one must accept the reality that the
energies and power, even for an advanced practitioner,
are actually not that great. Microvolts and microamps
are what we are dealing with. This does not preclude
the observed effects of qigong (healing, effects
through substances and structures, etc.) but does
indicate a need for very careful protocol and lab
set-up.

Many people study optics, for instance, in
telecommunications and deal with power in this range
for lasers. These devices can actually burn skin and
damage the eyes even in this "low" power range but
these effects are due to the focused (small
cross-sectional area) of the beam and its coherent
nature. Lab equipment and test set-ups are very
carefully designed to accommodate the very low power
and ensure there is no outside interference.

The same is true for testing of computer networking
equipment where power is quite small. The equipment
and lab set-up are carefully designed to ensure that
the small effects are actually what is being measured.

For example, EEG's monitor extremely small currents
and therefore require careful set-up for meaningful
and repeatable results. The reading portion should be
battery powered, preferably very low power, and be
connected to external equipment through optical
cables. This is done to ensure the response to the
qigong energy is measured, not the response to the EEG
equipment or conducted emissions from other equipment
such as a monitoring computer.

The reality is that all of the equipment we have
designed and use emits more waste energy than what is
transmitted by even a very powerful qigong
practitioner. With the sloppy set-ups and equipment it
should be no surprise that qigong results are not repeatable.

http://www.qigonginstitute.org/

http://pub21.ezboard.com/bqigonginstitute



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