Its good that you are seeking and getting counselling.  Please
continue with it.  One can really sense the frustration you are
feeling and going through.

Based on what you've written, marriage may not be a great idea with
this person right now.  Yes you have been with her for 5 years, but
marriage is not the answer and certainly will not get rid of the
people that make you so angry.  It is very unlikely that her family
will change.  It may be good time to completely break from her and
her family for some time for yourself, at minimum to come back to the
situation later with different perspectives you could not have
noticed before.

Cheers,

Simon.


--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "cincyjano2"
<cincyjano2@...> wrote:
>
> This is my first post.  I have been with a woman for five years who
> has been abused sexually, physically, and mentally by people in her
> family her whole life.  Her Mom left her when she was 4 years old
and
> had to live with her Aunt who was extremelly abusive.  Her cousin
who
> lived in the house with her molested her when she was 5 and the
Aunt
> didn't do anything about it.  The cousin eventually went to prison
> due to beating his wife with a bat.  However the Aunt would take my
> fiance when she was about 12 to prison to visit the cousin even
> though she did not want to see him.  Within a year in the
> relaitonship I found out that the Aunt beat my fiance 2 times to
the
> point where she almost killed her when she was a child.  I also
found
> out that her Aunt molested her brother. Whenever my fiance sees her
> aunt or talks to her aunt she becomes suicidal and does things to
> hurt herself.  For the first year I was very good with her I was
very
> supportive I would see her family whenever she wanted me to go over
> even though I hated doing it.  As time has gone by she has revealed
> more and more inforamtion about her aunt and her family.  I have
> found out that the majority of the people in her family have abused
> children.  As the time has grown so has my hate.  I refuse to see
her
> family.  Theres times where I do not want her to see her family. It
> has been hard because she won't let me talk to anyone or get help.
I
> feel at times like shes trying to protect the people who are
abusive.
>  In November she wanted to get married right away with me and then
> she took an extreme turn in December and broke up with me and said
> that she needs her space to figure out if she does in fact want to
be
> with me.  I think the two big things that triggered this was 1) She
> wanted me to go to her Aunts 60th Birthday Party last summer and I
> refused to go.  I was so upset because she told me during the week
> that we will not have kids because of her Aunt, that we will never
be
> happy because of her Aunt, and our life will revolve around what
the
> Aunt has done.  I did not want to go somewhere and sing happy
> birthday to someone I feel is dictating our life.
> 2) For the last two years we have been going to a side of a family
> that she never grew up with that are very loving and normal. We
have
> had very good times seeing them for the holidays. She told me in
> November that she doesn't want to spend time with those people and
> that she wants to spend time with her Aunt and the side of the
family
> that is abusive.  She told me that what her aunt did was okay and
> defended her Aunt. I just got angry and started yelling at her.  I
> kept thinking about her brother who is suicidal due to her Aunt and
> all the pain her Aunt has caused her that I just blew up.
>
> She told me a few weeks ago that the reason why she broke up with
me
> is due to the family, and that she will not contact me for awhile
and
> that she wanted me to get counseling and that she is going to get
> counseling as well.  She said she needs to figure out if she wants
to
> marry me.
>
> I need help.  I am seeing a counselor and things are going very
> well.  I love her with all my heart and she is the love of my life.
> What do I do with this anger that I have for her family.  Is there
> any books out there or anything.  All I keep thinking about is the
> fact that this person almost killed the women I love twice and not
> sure if the person I love will end up hurting herself to the point
of
> no return. She wants me to see these people. I feel that if we
could
> get over the family situation we would be very happy.  What do I
do?
> Any advice would mean a lot to me.
>
> Thanks
> Chris
> Report to moderator    24.13.63.93
>

Welcome to POS.  Keep in mind your choice (is it really a choice?,
some say not.) of attempting to be a boyfriend to her and at the same
time friend to a survivor will be a difficult one.   You (and her)
are also fairly young which is typically a difficult time for
survivors and "normal" relationships anyways; let alone the
combination of the two.   She also mentions somewhere the issue
of "time"; something you will need to keep in mind when you practice
patience and giving her the space she needs.

I dont want to prejudice or influence your relationship too much,
only to say welcome to the site.  We have some really good people and
I hope you find it gives you some answers you need.

Cheers,

Simon.


--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "tbgomez14"
<tbgomez14@...> wrote:
>
> Greetings everyone. Not only am I new to this group, but I'm new to
a
> relationship with a survivor.  We've been seeing each other for
> around four months, decided to make things more serious over a
month
> ago. All the warning signs have been there, I had my suspicions,
but
> would never dare ask someone something so personal at this point.
> She just recently opened up about the CSA on her own volition.  Of
> course, I was distraught and angry at the perpetrator, and still am
> to some degree.  I appreciate the honesty and the trust she placed
in
> me this early in the relationship.  I wouldn't be here if I didn't
> care about her.  I don't think she would have told me if she didn't
> care about me.  There are obvious reasons to be concerned, though.
> The story goes something like this:
>
> I'm a young man (mid-20s) finishing up a graduate degree. She's one
> year younger, about to begin a graduate program (It will come as no
> surprise to many of you that she is pursuing psychology).  The
> attraction was immediate. She is strikingly beautiful, educated,
> sweet and respectful, and we enjoy so many of the same activities
and
> entertainments.  Though, there was always also an element of
sadness
> within her.  She felt the need to consistently remind me when we
> first started seeing each other that she was not a "hoe," and that
if
> I was just in this to "get some," then I'd better look elsewhere.
I
> assured her that was not the case, because it wasn't and I never
made
> inappropriate advances or suggestions.  I told her I would always
> show her proper respect -- that I'm trying to find a woman that I
can
> be faithful to for the rest of my life, not for just a few nights.
>
> She first told me that the aversion to intimacy was because of a
> combination of religous values, "overthinking" things, and an
> emotionally and verbally abusive ex whom she loved and trusted to
> share some intimacy with (everything but intercourse). It was a
> codependent relationship that destroyed her self-esteem, but that
she
> was strong enough to break herself from eventually.  My respect for
> her grew.  A broken heart is the reason, she said, but that if I am
> patient for her we can get through it together.  I believe her,
this
> ex did not help matters at all.  Still, something wasn't quite
adding
> up in my mind.
>
> The rollercoaster was in perpetual full-on-mode.  We would kiss,
hold
> hands, have an amazing time together one night (some of the best
> dates you can imagine) -- and then the next night she would be
> totally withdrawn, not even a hug to say goodbye.  She would
discuss
> future plans for dates and possibilities one day, and then the next
> day be completely aloof and uninterested.  I brought up the fact
that
> I felt a little confused by her actions, she would tell me if I
> didn't think she was worth waiting for, to tell her and she would
> leave (classic guilt trip).  I noticed that in many cases, she
wanted
> a little alcohol before being affectionate in any way.  That is
> disconcerting to say the least.
>
> The affection culminated one night into something more special and
> she asked me for intercourse. I deeply wanted to, I have the
> passionate desire for her and have had sex with women in much
earlier
> relationship stages.  However, she had told me before that the only
> time she had intercourse was with a friend a few years ago, whom
she
> promptly told to stop in the middle of the act, and never spoke to
> again.  I knew that she wasn't actually ready and told her we
should
> wait, that we would get there later on in the relationship. She
> persisted, I refused.  One of the best (and hardest) decisions I've
> ever made.  She confessed later that very night, shaking in my
arms,
> that she wasn't even sure she was ready for the things we HAD done
> and thanked me for not going further. I was crushed and confused,
but
> I knew I did the right thing, though certainly not the easy thing.
>
> She could sense my confusion and concern as we saw each other in
the
> past few weeks, but she insisted it was just because of her ex
trying
> to contact her again, she'd be fine with time.  A couple of nights
> ago she told me that the uncle who raised her, the closest thing
> she'd known to a father, committed CSA.  Not just on her, but her
> siblings as well.  I was devastated to actually hear it, although I
> suspected it.  I told her she never deserved anything like that and
> that I was so sorry.  She acted like the CSA didn't matter, that it
> was in the past.  She's never been to therapy for it, although as a
> psych major she must know the damage is real and long lasting.
>
> All the pieces are starting to fall into place.  The root of the
> problem isn't this ex boyfriend, it's her example of a man growing
up
> who betrayed her trust, betrayed her body.  Certainly it played a
> part in how she got into her unhealthy ex relationship.  I
> immediately hit the library to do research on CSA, I want to
> undersand, even though I've never been through anything like it.  I
> can't talk about this with my friends or family without feeling
like
> I'm betraying her privacy-her right to keep this as secretive as
she
> wants.  I can't continue to talk to her about it because it dredges
> up bad memories and we're still in a stage in our relationship
where
> it should be about having fun together to find out if we belong
> together, not conducting psychotherapy sessions.
>
> That's why i'm here. We aren't in love with each other yet,
although
> we have committed ourselves to finding out where this goes.  I know
> that I could find another partner, but I feel that she's not one to
> give up on -- a special person, even with her problems (which we
all
> have of some kind).  I grew up in a family where the right kind of
> love was shown to us as kids, where my parents were affectionate
> toward each other and properly so with us.  I want to be able to
have
> a healthy and faithful physical relationship with the woman I end
up
> with.
>
> She says she's capable in time.  She has been more affectionate
than
> in the beginning, but there always seems to be moments of
> regression.  I feel like I'm ready to take a leap of faith, even
> though my rational mind is throwing up caution flags at every
turn.
> I don't want to leave her now.  I also don't have any delusions of
> being her savior, but I can be there for her when times are tough,
> and hope that the good times outweigh the difficult.  Maybe this
> group can help?  Should I gain more experience in this, maybe I can
> return the favor one day.
>
> I realize that many of you have been partners for long periods of
> time and in much more serious relationship stages.  I have only
> caught a brief glimpse of that world, and I have enormous respect
for
> all of you.  Thank you for hearing me out and for any advice or
> comments you have.
>
> -Gomez
>

This is my first post.  I have been with a woman for five years who
has been abused sexually, physically, and mentally by people in her
family her whole life.  Her Mom left her when she was 4 years old and
had to live with her Aunt who was extremelly abusive.  Her cousin who
lived in the house with her molested her when she was 5 and the Aunt
didn't do anything about it.  The cousin eventually went to prison
due to beating his wife with a bat.  However the Aunt would take my
fiance when she was about 12 to prison to visit the cousin even
though she did not want to see him.  Within a year in the
relaitonship I found out that the Aunt beat my fiance 2 times to the
point where she almost killed her when she was a child.  I also found
out that her Aunt molested her brother. Whenever my fiance sees her
aunt or talks to her aunt she becomes suicidal and does things to
hurt herself.  For the first year I was very good with her I was very
supportive I would see her family whenever she wanted me to go over
even though I hated doing it.  As time has gone by she has revealed
more and more inforamtion about her aunt and her family.  I have
found out that the majority of the people in her family have abused
children.  As the time has grown so has my hate.  I refuse to see her
family.  Theres times where I do not want her to see her family. It
has been hard because she won't let me talk to anyone or get help. I
feel at times like shes trying to protect the people who are abusive.
  In November she wanted to get married right away with me and then
she took an extreme turn in December and broke up with me and said
that she needs her space to figure out if she does in fact want to be
with me.  I think the two big things that triggered this was 1) She
wanted me to go to her Aunts 60th Birthday Party last summer and I
refused to go.  I was so upset because she told me during the week
that we will not have kids because of her Aunt, that we will never be
happy because of her Aunt, and our life will revolve around what the
Aunt has done.  I did not want to go somewhere and sing happy
birthday to someone I feel is dictating our life.
2) For the last two years we have been going to a side of a family
that she never grew up with that are very loving and normal. We have
had very good times seeing them for the holidays. She told me in
November that she doesn't want to spend time with those people and
that she wants to spend time with her Aunt and the side of the family
that is abusive.  She told me that what her aunt did was okay and
defended her Aunt. I just got angry and started yelling at her.  I
kept thinking about her brother who is suicidal due to her Aunt and
all the pain her Aunt has caused her that I just blew up.

She told me a few weeks ago that the reason why she broke up with me
is due to the family, and that she will not contact me for awhile and
that she wanted me to get counseling and that she is going to get
counseling as well.  She said she needs to figure out if she wants to
marry me.

I need help.  I am seeing a counselor and things are going very
well.  I love her with all my heart and she is the love of my life.
What do I do with this anger that I have for her family.  Is there
any books out there or anything.  All I keep thinking about is the
fact that this person almost killed the women I love twice and not
sure if the person I love will end up hurting herself to the point of
no return. She wants me to see these people. I feel that if we could
get over the family situation we would be very happy.  What do I do?
Any advice would mean a lot to me.

Thanks
Chris
Report to moderator    24.13.63.93

Got a call from my ex, she told me our son was missing me, wanted to
know if I would come and get him.  The tone of her voice was blank
and distant.  I asked her if everything was alright, of course she
answered yes, but then, there was that pause and she is not doing
well.  Dealing with the things that a survivor deals with, trying to
stay in the world in which we reside, but being taunted to that world
of someplace else.  I talked to her for a while, did what I could and
we parted, Youngun in tow, giving her time and space, something I was
incapable of doing when we were together.
You see, I think it all boils down to loving someone.  I think I will
forever love her.  I know that I will never be able to fix what is
broken, and how much it violates what I have learned about my own
issues of needing to be needed.  She is and forever will be the one
that got away, the one that I couldn't convince that everything would
be alright... and make it so.  I can deal with that.  I am with a
woman that makes me happier than I ever thought possible, and I am
dealing with my own little insecurities that arise in that
relationship, like accepting that I have no control of what it will
be and that is alright, and even if it isn't alright at the moment,
give it time and believe in the love we hold for one another and she
is always there for me and I didn't have to earn it, it just is...
but that is rambling on to build up to the point that it is very
possible to love more than one person.
I love my ex with all of my heart.  I understand her better than any
human being on this planet, and I also accept that no matter how much
I know about her, no matter how much I love her, there is that little
girl inside that comes out and says that everything in this world is
dangerous and the trust is gone...  I don't take it personal now, it
was something I couldn't cope with while I was trying to save the
marriage, but somehow, I can muster a smile, tell her that she is
loved and wish her the best.  Life goes on... My son and I say
bedtime prayers and we end it with "God bless everyone I love; teach
me to love everyone.  Thank you for our lives and all the treasures
in it."

Teach me to love everyone.

What a concept eh?

Simon

Hey Carrie, you heard from E?

Thanks Carrie!

--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, Carrie
<hope_is_necessary@...> wrote:
>
> I have been quiet for a long time now, only checking the site once
in a blue moon to see if anyone from my time of need here has posted
anything new.  I am so very sad to see that the group has gotten so
silent and am so very grateful that when I needed it, the site was
active and HOPEFUL.
>  
> I am very blessed to have come as far as I have - and found that
my relationship has weathered my discovering of ME. So often, I
focused outward when I should have been focusing inward. I know that
now, and I know how to take care of me without needing anyone else.
Only when I discovered that, was I then able to be in a healthy
relationship.  It just so happens that I continue to be in a
relationship with a survivor. 
>  
> Please know that some of the diatribes about how CSA relationships
cannot work is only a reflection of the poster's OWN EXPERIENCE. 
Not everyone's.  Know that it is so very true that those of us who
are in a better place do not come here as often - or post as much. 
We do exist.  And hope should exist as well.  Please do not let
someone else's experience shadow your own.  And do not take someone
else's "shoulds" as your own.  NO ONE BUT YOU can define what you
should or should not do.
>  
> Blessings,
> Carrie
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Greetings everyone. Not only am I new to this group, but I'm new to a
relationship with a survivor.  We've been seeing each other for
around four months, decided to make things more serious over a month
ago. All the warning signs have been there, I had my suspicions, but
would never dare ask someone something so personal at this point.
She just recently opened up about the CSA on her own volition.  Of
course, I was distraught and angry at the perpetrator, and still am
to some degree.  I appreciate the honesty and the trust she placed in
me this early in the relationship.  I wouldn't be here if I didn't
care about her.  I don't think she would have told me if she didn't
care about me.  There are obvious reasons to be concerned, though.
The story goes something like this:

I'm a young man (mid-20s) finishing up a graduate degree. She's one
year younger, about to begin a graduate program (It will come as no
surprise to many of you that she is pursuing psychology).  The
attraction was immediate. She is strikingly beautiful, educated,
sweet and respectful, and we enjoy so many of the same activities and
entertainments.  Though, there was always also an element of sadness
within her.  She felt the need to consistently remind me when we
first started seeing each other that she was not a "hoe," and that if
I was just in this to "get some," then I'd better look elsewhere.  I
assured her that was not the case, because it wasn't and I never made
inappropriate advances or suggestions.  I told her I would always
show her proper respect -- that I'm trying to find a woman that I can
be faithful to for the rest of my life, not for just a few nights.

She first told me that the aversion to intimacy was because of a
combination of religous values, "overthinking" things, and an
emotionally and verbally abusive ex whom she loved and trusted to
share some intimacy with (everything but intercourse). It was a
codependent relationship that destroyed her self-esteem, but that she
was strong enough to break herself from eventually.  My respect for
her grew.  A broken heart is the reason, she said, but that if I am
patient for her we can get through it together.  I believe her, this
ex did not help matters at all.  Still, something wasn't quite adding
up in my mind.

The rollercoaster was in perpetual full-on-mode.  We would kiss, hold
hands, have an amazing time together one night (some of the best
dates you can imagine) -- and then the next night she would be
totally withdrawn, not even a hug to say goodbye.  She would discuss
future plans for dates and possibilities one day, and then the next
day be completely aloof and uninterested.  I brought up the fact that
I felt a little confused by her actions, she would tell me if I
didn't think she was worth waiting for, to tell her and she would
leave (classic guilt trip).  I noticed that in many cases, she wanted
a little alcohol before being affectionate in any way.  That is
disconcerting to say the least.

The affection culminated one night into something more special and
she asked me for intercourse. I deeply wanted to, I have the
passionate desire for her and have had sex with women in much earlier
relationship stages.  However, she had told me before that the only
time she had intercourse was with a friend a few years ago, whom she
promptly told to stop in the middle of the act, and never spoke to
again.  I knew that she wasn't actually ready and told her we should
wait, that we would get there later on in the relationship. She
persisted, I refused.  One of the best (and hardest) decisions I've
ever made.  She confessed later that very night, shaking in my arms,
that she wasn't even sure she was ready for the things we HAD done
and thanked me for not going further. I was crushed and confused, but
I knew I did the right thing, though certainly not the easy thing.

She could sense my confusion and concern as we saw each other in the
past few weeks, but she insisted it was just because of her ex trying
to contact her again, she'd be fine with time.  A couple of nights
ago she told me that the uncle who raised her, the closest thing
she'd known to a father, committed CSA.  Not just on her, but her
siblings as well.  I was devastated to actually hear it, although I
suspected it.  I told her she never deserved anything like that and
that I was so sorry.  She acted like the CSA didn't matter, that it
was in the past.  She's never been to therapy for it, although as a
psych major she must know the damage is real and long lasting.

All the pieces are starting to fall into place.  The root of the
problem isn't this ex boyfriend, it's her example of a man growing up
who betrayed her trust, betrayed her body.  Certainly it played a
part in how she got into her unhealthy ex relationship.  I
immediately hit the library to do research on CSA, I want to
undersand, even though I've never been through anything like it.  I
can't talk about this with my friends or family without feeling like
I'm betraying her privacy-her right to keep this as secretive as she
wants.  I can't continue to talk to her about it because it dredges
up bad memories and we're still in a stage in our relationship where
it should be about having fun together to find out if we belong
together, not conducting psychotherapy sessions.

That's why i'm here. We aren't in love with each other yet, although
we have committed ourselves to finding out where this goes.  I know
that I could find another partner, but I feel that she's not one to
give up on -- a special person, even with her problems (which we all
have of some kind).  I grew up in a family where the right kind of
love was shown to us as kids, where my parents were affectionate
toward each other and properly so with us.  I want to be able to have
a healthy and faithful physical relationship with the woman I end up
with.

She says she's capable in time.  She has been more affectionate than
in the beginning, but there always seems to be moments of
regression.  I feel like I'm ready to take a leap of faith, even
though my rational mind is throwing up caution flags at every turn.
I don't want to leave her now.  I also don't have any delusions of
being her savior, but I can be there for her when times are tough,
and hope that the good times outweigh the difficult.  Maybe this
group can help?  Should I gain more experience in this, maybe I can
return the favor one day.

I realize that many of you have been partners for long periods of
time and in much more serious relationship stages.  I have only
caught a brief glimpse of that world, and I have enormous respect for
all of you.  Thank you for hearing me out and for any advice or
comments you have.

-Gomez

I have been quiet for a long time now, only checking the site once in a blue
moon to see if anyone from my time of need here has posted anything new.  I am
so very sad to see that the group has gotten so silent and am so very grateful
that when I needed it, the site was active and HOPEFUL.
 
I am very blessed to have come as far as I have - and found that my relationship
has weathered my discovering of ME. So often, I focused outward when I should
have been focusing inward. I know that now, and I know how to take care of me
without needing anyone else. Only when I discovered that, was I then able to be
in a healthy relationship.  It just so happens that I continue to be in a
relationship with a survivor. 
 
Please know that some of the diatribes about how CSA relationships cannot work
is only a reflection of the poster's OWN EXPERIENCE.  Not everyone's.  Know that
it is so very true that those of us who are in a better place do not come here
as often - or post as much.  We do exist.  And hope should exist as well. 
Please do not let someone else's experience shadow your own.  And do not take
someone else's "shoulds" as your own.  NO ONE BUT YOU can define what you should
or should not do.
 
Blessings,
Carrie




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

J,
I sincerely think that if I could have gotten the understanding that
I have now on co-dependence when the break down started, that my
partner and I could have made it.  It would have meant a whole lot
of letting go, and it would have been tough, but I look at my
relationship with her now, a best friend, and I know that the
relationship as husband and wife could have worked.
Of course I didn't have the knowledge of co-dependence.  I used to
curse any who would have come on here suggesting it, and gone off on
a rant about loving someone is not co-dependence.  Which is true in
and of itself, however, there is so much more to it.  That need to
be the one to fix things, that need to appear in control... well
there are books written on the topic, so not going to fill the page
here on the matter, but feel compelled to comment on something
Daniel posted.
I respect that everyone's situation is different, and we tend to
look at them subjectively.  I do not assume that it applies to
everyone.  I do know that addressing issues in my life (my co-
dependency) has changed my life and improved my understanding of
what happened so I am better prepared to deal with the relationship
that we will continue to share since she and I had a child together.
I offer my experiences on here for guidance for those that can get
something from it, take what you want and need from it, leave the
rest.

simon

--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "danielsherenow"
<ragman21@...> wrote:
>
> J.,
> Yes, for sure.
> People grow and change.
> One of the problems is that everyone takes their own experience,
> subjective as that is, and assumes it applies to everyone. But
we're
> all different.
> If you've been together for eight years, something must be
working,
> and something must be worth waiting for. You must love her.
> This is not something to be taken lightly. Many people wait their
> whole lives to really love someone.
> We've all felt lonely. People in relationships that are "working"
> often feel lonely.
> My sense is that this woman is worth it -- or else you wouldn't
have
> bothered to seek out this site, to try to figure her out.
> And she sounds worth figuring out.
> Look into yourself. You're not "co-dependent" as much as a guy
trying
> to love a woman.
> Keep us posted,
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
> --- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "lcals67"
> <lcals67@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm new to the group but fairly old to my relationship :)
> >
> > I've been with my partner for going on 8 years now and our
> > relationship has suffered for 6 ˝  of those years.  With the
> skilled
> > help from a therapist over the last 3 years, she is in a
position
> to
> > move forward with her healing which makes me very happy for her
and
> I
> > hope that she can heal what happened to her as a child.
> >
> > I'm here because I am struggling in several areas and I'm hoping
> that
> > in "talking" with people who have been or who are in a similar
> > situation can offer me advice or just someone to talk to in this
> > seemingly lonely place.
> >
> > My own background is a co-dependent and I understand that it's
not
> > only her that has to change, I have to do it as well and I'm
doing
> my
> > best to not take responsibility for someone else's problems,
(not
> > only with my partner but with other people around me) but I have
my
> > days.
> >
> > Are there any positive stories here? Where someone has actually
> > stayed and things improved?
> >
> > I appreciate your replies, any and all.
> >
> > :)
> > J
> >
>

J.,
Yes, for sure.
People grow and change.
One of the problems is that everyone takes their own experience,
subjective as that is, and assumes it applies to everyone. But we're
all different.
If you've been together for eight years, something must be working,
and something must be worth waiting for. You must love her.
This is not something to be taken lightly. Many people wait their
whole lives to really love someone.
We've all felt lonely. People in relationships that are "working"
often feel lonely.
My sense is that this woman is worth it -- or else you wouldn't have
bothered to seek out this site, to try to figure her out.
And she sounds worth figuring out.
Look into yourself. You're not "co-dependent" as much as a guy trying
to love a woman.
Keep us posted,

Daniel



--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "lcals67"
<lcals67@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to the group but fairly old to my relationship :)
>
> I've been with my partner for going on 8 years now and our
> relationship has suffered for 6 ˝  of those years.  With the
skilled
> help from a therapist over the last 3 years, she is in a position
to
> move forward with her healing which makes me very happy for her and
I
> hope that she can heal what happened to her as a child.
>
> I'm here because I am struggling in several areas and I'm hoping
that
> in "talking" with people who have been or who are in a similar
> situation can offer me advice or just someone to talk to in this
> seemingly lonely place.
>
> My own background is a co-dependent and I understand that it's not
> only her that has to change, I have to do it as well and I'm doing
my
> best to not take responsibility for someone else's problems, (not
> only with my partner but with other people around me) but I have my
> days.
>
> Are there any positive stories here? Where someone has actually
> stayed and things improved?
>
> I appreciate your replies, any and all.
>
> :)
> J
>

Hi,

I'm new to the group but fairly old to my relationship :)

I've been with my partner for going on 8 years now and our
relationship has suffered for 6 ˝  of those years.  With the skilled
help from a therapist over the last 3 years, she is in a position to
move forward with her healing which makes me very happy for her and I
hope that she can heal what happened to her as a child.

I'm here because I am struggling in several areas and I'm hoping that
in "talking" with people who have been or who are in a similar
situation can offer me advice or just someone to talk to in this
seemingly lonely place.

My own background is a co-dependent and I understand that it's not
only her that has to change, I have to do it as well and I'm doing my
best to not take responsibility for someone else's problems, (not
only with my partner but with other people around me) but I have my
days.

Are there any positive stories here? Where someone has actually
stayed and things improved?

I appreciate your replies, any and all.

:)
J

Hello Daniel,

I guess no one knows of one in your area - but maybe if you called a rape
hotline they may have some information - or refer you to some place else to ask.
If not maybe a therapist?Good Luck,
Alisa




To: positivepartnersofsurvivors@...: ragman21@...:
Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:21:35 +0000Subject: [POS Re: New to the group



In the past I've asked, several times here,if anyone knows of a live group for
partners of survivors. There are many for the survivors themselves, but I've
never found one for partners.If anyone knows of one (I was looking in New York
City or nothern New Jersey) please tell us.Daniel--- In
positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "the_unagog" <unagog@...> wrote:>>
Hi Group,> I would like to introduce myself. I am new (1st day) and I am glad I
> found you. There are not too many resources out there for spouses of >
survivors of abuse. > I have been living with my wife for 6 1/2 years and we
have been > married for 2. We have 2 small children. > I suspected that my wife
was the victim of childhood sexual abuse for > quite some time, but she finally
"told" me. "Told" is in quotes > becuase she claimed it could have been an
accident. She said her > father sexually molested her. (that was no accident).>
She is a very angry woman, often taking her anger out on the children > and me.
> Question for the group: Does anyone know if there is a support group > for
partners of people who were sexually abused as children? Kind of > like AL-ANON.
> Thanks,> Phil>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In the past I've asked, several times here,if anyone knows of a live
group for partners of survivors. There are many for the survivors
themselves, but I've never found one for partners.
If anyone knows of one (I was looking in New York City or nothern New
Jersey) please tell us.

Daniel

--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "the_unagog"
<unagog@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Group,
> I would like to introduce myself.  I am new (1st day) and I am glad
I
> found you.  There are not too many resources out there for spouses
of
> survivors of abuse.
> I have been living with my wife for 6 1/2 years and we have been
> married for 2.  We have 2 small children.
> I suspected that my wife was the victim of childhood sexual abuse
for
> quite some time, but she finally "told" me.  "Told" is in quotes
> becuase she claimed it could have been an accident.  She said her
> father sexually molested her. (that was no accident).
> She is a very angry woman, often taking her anger out on the
children
> and me.
> Question for the group:  Does anyone know if there is a support
group
> for partners of people who were sexually abused as children?  Kind
of
> like AL-ANON.
> Thanks,
> Phil
>

Hi Group,
I would like to introduce myself.  I am new (1st day) and I am glad I
found you.  There are not too many resources out there for spouses of
survivors of abuse.
I have been living with my wife for 6 1/2 years and we have been
married for 2.  We have 2 small children.
I suspected that my wife was the victim of childhood sexual abuse for
quite some time, but she finally "told" me.  "Told" is in quotes
becuase she claimed it could have been an accident.  She said her
father sexually molested her. (that was no accident).
She is a very angry woman, often taking her anger out on the children
and me.
Question for the group:  Does anyone know if there is a support group
for partners of people who were sexually abused as children?  Kind of
like AL-ANON.
Thanks,
Phil

I picked up a book about Archbishop Desmond Tutu, titled believe.
The key that he stresses is that we need each other to be, human.
That is the being part of it all.  Human beings are born knowing
nothing, we are subjected to experiences and taught how to react.
There are post partners of survivors that hold angst for the hell
that they went through with their survivors.  It is understandable,
but there is that part of life that we take what has happened and
analyze it and put it in its proper place.  For me, I know that I
would never have taken therapy seriously simply because I knew
everything, and it was all her fault... lol.  The pain of losing my
survivor opened my eyes to the depth of reality and changed me for
the better.  With the change in me, change came about for her also,
so if you are looking for a success story, I guess that is almost
good enough to put in the win column.  She is with someone else, a
genuine good guy, and she has worked on and continues to work on her
CSA issues.  I after much introspection have come to accept that
every human being holds their own unique truths, and the world is not
a perfect place and it is not my job to try to make it that way.  I
am very much in love with a wonderful woman who was never molested,
never traumatized, and has a very strong grasp on what goodness,
kindness, and caring mean.  I remain friends with my ex, we share
custody of our child together and life moves on, with friends
(including my ex)that I love deeply and accept for being who they are.

My ex did some horrible rotten things to me, I forgave them.  It took
a little longer for me to forgive myself.  I had to come to terms
with all of the things that I had an active part in, I had to deal
with the fact that the marriage failed... I failed.  I had to come to
terms that I sought out troubled individuals all of my life thinking
that if I somehow made their life better I would earn their
love/respect.  I had to forgive myself for not accepting others'
truths.  Everyone has their own black and white.  The age old
arguement that it is not black or white that the truth resides in
some grey area, is bullshit.  It is Black or White, right or wrong,
but you need to accept that what is true for you is not always going
to be true to others and that is alright too.  Accept your own
truths, decide what you want and life follows.

Simon

my fiance has ptsd- currently we live a few hundred miles apart- she
has ptsd- is in therapy and on meds---please help me  learn how i can
help support her.

JP

Your post troubles me.  I won't go into each area that I take issue
but I will say that without hope we can all 'hang it up.'

Also, I think using the term "cure" to describe a survivors' ability
to walk into the light after a period of darkness is a mistake.
Remember, survivors are on a journey through life just as we are
travelers along the road of, as you quoted C. S. Lewis, painful
learning experiences.  Nietzsche tells us, "That which does not
destroy us makes us stronger." Lewis and Nietzsche are both correct,
for partners and survivors, but in order to learn from pain and
emerge stronger we must separate the wheat from the chaff.  If we
attempt to carry both our burden is too heavy.  Something must be
left behind.

Our prayer should be for discernment because our pain wants to be
carried with us while wisdom is needed -- never needy.
A little known secret in the "idiot's guide to emotional
intelligence" is there are pearls of wisdom that can grow into future
goodness even within an evil act of rape or incest.

I know it's VERY difficult -- almost seems impossible, but there's a
silver-lining there somewhere. The trick is to find it.

Looking...
Pat


--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "simonshek_2000"
<simonshek_2000@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> --- In
positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "danielsherenow"
> <ragman21@> wrote:
> >
> > I think you're speaking of Margaret Mead's "Coming of Age in
> Samoa."
> > As I recall, the idea of young people having sex with older ones
> was
> > to teach them about sex and sexuality, the idea that the old
> should
> > teach the young the secrets of sex.
> > It should be mentioned that Mead's book is highly controversial,
> and
> > disputed by many in the field.
> > As for its relevance to CSA, I'd have to say that the idea of
> > betrayal --as Alisa perceptively points out -- is crucial, and
> > probably counts more than cross-cultural references like "Samoa."
> > When I deal with the effects of CSA in my own life and in my own
> > relationship, I think the horror of betrayal counts more than
> > anything else.
> >
> > Daniel
> >
> > --- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, Alisa
> Balterman
> > <alisabalterman@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello JP -
> > >
> > > I think your analyses of the tribe and it's customs verses what
> > CSA's experience can be understood differently.  When I read
about
> > the tribe I thought - they are keeping sexual activity organized
> and
> > controlled by these activities and have an interest in who will
be
> > born through a marriage or pairing.  That would be why, I would
> > guess, that they keep it all same sex till that point.  It is a
> very
> > interesting solution and I agree that they are comfortable with
it
> > because it is the norm for them.
> > >
> > > Yet, is it really the same context when we look at our
culture?
> > Are incest and rape really about acknowledging the pubescent
> coming
> > of sexual age part of the equation?  I think not - as a matter of
> > fact I think that in most, if not all, of these cases the
> experience
> > is more about power for the perpetrator and sadly has very little
> to
> > do with the one they have chosen - perhaps only to the extent
that
> > they represent an opportunity.  I believe that the core issue is
> that
> > it is the betrayal, the lack of value the victim preceves that
> both
> > hurts and produces their fear.  These are what the challenges are
> for
> > a CSA in my opinion.As far as what we can do as partners in the
> face
> > of this, that is the question.  There are a huge percentage of
> people
> > who have experienced this to one degree or another, so the
> > possibility of partnering up with someone who has been abused is
> not
> > a rare experience.  I think there is room to consider that both
> the
> > victim/survivor and their partner have a varying degree of
> possibly
> > working it out to become a viable relationship.  There are many
> > factors for both parties in this.  I believe that we as partners
> need
> > to look at taking care of ourselves and mainly "do no harm" to
the
> > survivor.  I also believe that both parties need to acknowledge
> their
> > issues individually first and try to find ways to understand what
> is
> > going on without  blaming the other.
> > >
> > > I have to admit that I didn't throughly read your post and am
> > responding to the first section.
> > >
> > > Alisa
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To: positivepartnersofsurvivors@: Brahmadomtao@: Sun, 28 Dec
> > 2008 17:51:35 +0000Subject: [POS Vent- never forget you CAN vent
> > HERE!!!!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you too, Brenda.I was on the bottom for a long time,
> through
> > my own doing, and someignorance about what and how the human
being
> > and our minds and healingwork. It was a long battle coming to sit
> > with myself and realize itwas all lost perspective, lack of
> > experience and walking close to thefringes of such damaged people
> who
> > often are very expressive and findcatharsis in artistic release.
> As
> > an artist and growing up in ahousehold of professional musicians
> and
> > artists, I was accustomed tobeing around damaged souls and didn't
> > know what a damaged soul reallyWAS, except interesting as a
> > personality trait. The human mind is like the human body: bend an
> > elbow the wrong way andit breaks. That is the law of nature. The
> mind
> > has similar limits andpatterns of articulation that have, more
and
> > more, been "mapped" so tospeak, within certain contexts and
> > constructs of understanding bymodern sciences. In S. America some
> > anthropologist explorers in the last 40 or so yearsmade a
> discovery
> > that partially rocked the boat on what we know andunderstand
> > about "normal". There was and is an article in NationalGeographic
> > somewhere about this: a tribe that has existed for whoknows how
> many
> > tens of thousands of years and have a custom that iscompletely
> normal
> > for them. ...When children reach puberty they begin sexually
> > servicing the oldermembers of the same gender as they are, moving
> > into a communal areawith these elders. Both boys and girls become
> > sort of "concubines" fortheir elders, including their own
parents.
> > The boys normally performoral sex on the older men (they're
taught
> to
> > swallow- they are thatspecific and open about the practice), and
> the
> > girls, the same withthe older women. This goes on with the
younger
> > single people- who areFORBIDDEN to interact with each other or
> even
> > kiss or sleep near eachother (they're kept completely separate;
> men
> > in one compound, women inthe other), until a marriage is
arranged.
> > Once two single young peopleare married, they move OUT of the
> > communal areas and into their own"hut", and are considered no
> longer
> > part of this sexual arrangement. When interviewed, and later in
> > follow up interviews and studies, noissues with sexuality, abuse
> or
> > problems with their orientation werefound, nor continued desire
> FOR
> > the "unusual" sexual activities-though no problems WITH the
> practice
> > either. BECAUSE the youth aretaught (and in isolation to the rest
> of
> > the world's ways) that this ishow it is, and NORMAL, there seems
> to
> > be no weirdness emotionally orboundary wise and people accept it
> > simply how it is and a part oflife. Even it is so ingrained in
> their
> > culture that they hardlyrealize it is a form of "sex" as modern
> > society called it, or incest.Their consciousness was/is more
> focused
> > on other parts of their livesand even the relationships that had
> > these events in them (theinterviewers found that the subjects
were
> > quite willing and open totalk about the practice but found it
> strange
> > that the interviewerswere not more interested in something more
> > interesting). As it wastotally normal and the custom, no side
> effects
> > OF ANY KIND even overlong term studies was found in any of the
> tribe
> > members. Simply it wasand IS a way of life, that has NO ILL SIDE
> > EFFECTS.I don't know if anything has been done since with these
> > tribes andpeople- such as follow ups as the rain forests get less
> and
> > thesepeople come more and more into contact with the "modern"
> world
> > andpossibly emigrate some of them into it, what happens
> > then...Interesting eh?Now those of you who are on here wanting
> help
> > and wanting tounderstand a bit more about these paradigms you've
> > stumbled intoprobably in total ignorance, like I did, let that
> above
> > situation andthose tribal ways sit with you a bit and contemplate
> it
> > and thedifference between what YOU believe is right, and WHAT A
> HUMAN
> > BEINGis and HOW our minds and socialization can ARTICULATE in
> healthy
> > ways,as well as what you BELIEVE vs. how the human being works
> > outside ofmorality and ethics and socialization.CSA's and abuse
> > survivors find their ways 100% normal. YOU'RE THE ONEwith the
REAL
> > problem, PoS! You might think I am being cheeky orsarcastic
> somehow,
> > but in closed interviews, one of the biggest thingsthat CSA
> survivors
> > have confessed, when able to be sincere and honest(weather
> > intentionally misleading or ignorant of themselves in theseways),
> is
> > the problem and inability to MATCH UP what THEY experiencedwith
> HOW
> > THE REST OF THE WORLD perceives it and seems to judge it.This
goes
> so
> > deep and is such an issue that this very paradigm itselfis
> > responsible and at the root of MUCH of the mental and
> > emotionalillness that CSA's suffer from. There are variations on
> this
> > theme,just as there are variations on how betrayal and innocence
> can
> > belost, but in the end the common thread is the outlook and
> > perspectiveeveryone around these issues shares in the modern
> world.Of
> > course, as such, CSA's either join modern society and accept
> > thesocial customs, or find a "tribe" so to speak, where they
> > are "normal"and can feel more at home, and less "judged" for what
> is
> > normal to them.Ironically, most CSA's DO seek and find tribes of
a
> > kind, where theycan feel more at home and at ease, same as any of
> us,
> > you or I: placeswhere people have issues that they won't be
> solving
> > any time soon. You can judge it if you like, but it is simply
what
> it
> > is. Schoolchildren don't hang out on the corners with hookers and
> > take a lot ofdrugs, become alcoholics and have alot of random sex
> > with strangers inbathrooms and bars, and similar situations
> (unless
> > of course they areCSA's). THIS IS WHY there is judgmental
> attitudes
> > towards certainforms of "business" and occupations and activities
> in
> > place that havestrong christian backgrounds (I.E. a large part
of,
> > say, the USA).This is partially why we have such moral judgments
> > against, say,hookers in front of elementary schools, to the point
> > that the policewill come escort them to another location (is that
> > legal? So whatgives?)...Perhaps the CSA's are simply a tribe
> > displaced, and the people whoperpetrated the crimes part of
> another
> > kind and similar tribe, and inthe end, it is something somehow we
> all
> > have to find some kind ofpeace with. I don't know. Many options
on
> > the subject!Mental and emotional illness is often equated with
> street
> > people whohave grocery carts and bags and talk to lamp posts. The
> > REALITY isprobably that more than 90% of the mental and
> emotionally
> > ill peoplelook just like everyone else. That is not to say (and
> this
> > is wherethe wheat separates from the chaff when it comes to
people
> > whounderstand what psychology is about vs. what it often seems to
> > imply)that there IS A PERFECT ROLE MODEL OR EXAMPLE OF
> > PERFECTMENTAL/EMOTIONAL HEALTH that is walking around or that we
> all
> > somehow"ought" to strive for or maintain. Psychology isn't about
> > definingwhat THAT is (though that might make for some interesting
> > conceptsthat need to be taken down)... Rather, this simply means,
> > outside ofclinical diagnosis, as people have noticed, a lot of
> people
> > have a lotof issues. BUTmore and more I'd say most of the world's
> > population DOES NOT SUFFERfrom any form of illness, dis-ease or
> > mental/emotional problems. Ofcourse, no one LIKES being
> frustrated,
> > and being frustrated isprobably mostly the same for most of us-
we
> > can't think normal, can'tfind the solution easily, and that often
> > makes us MORE frustrateduntil we take a step back and breathe and
> re-
> > assess, or take some timeout from the situation or issue that is
> > frustrating us. Life isn'talways PLEASANT, as you know- but
mental
> > and emotional illness issuesCAN NOT BE RECOVERED FROM WITH SUCH
> > EXERCISES as intentionally regaining self-perspective. Hence the
> > term "dis-ease" or "illness".The term, "unballance" though DOES
> > imply, say, a pendulum or see-sawthat has gone too far one way-
> and
> > as such, with skill and work, canpossibly BE "ballanced" again.
Of
> > course, if the underlying issuesthat UNballanced it are not
healed
> > and dealt with though, and wereCREATED in the FORMATIVE BONDING
> years
> > or via CSA abuse, forget aboutit; the unballance is there to stay
> as
> > it is a coping and damageprotection mechanism FOR survival.WHERE
> THIS
> > COMES INTO BEARING in situations like you possibly are in,is in
> WHEN
> > is it TREATABLE and when is it MORBIDLY OBSESSIVE and, soto
> > speak, "terminal"?CSA's as a rule, are considered by
> professionals,
> > when you readbetween the lines (especially from authors and
> > professionals with themost experience in dealing with them in the
> > real world and how theytreat them in long term studies and as
> > patients) as being simplypeople who one tries to "help make more
> > comfortable with who they are"and their condition and situation,
> to
> > an extent. THERE IS RARELY aneffort to change anything about
them.
> > Rather, the process is tomonitor the CSA's who seek treatment,
> > for "degrading and deteriorationover time". Then intervention is
> the
> > policy. THE PROCESS IS NOT TO "CURE"!!!! -No more than a
> > concentration camp'sprocess was to cure people of being Jewish
(is
> > that a cure? What isthe illness? a religious choice? An enthnic
> > supposition?).Professionals are not going to try and CURE the CSA
> of
> > BEING a CSA. Itcan't be DONE.... a CSA is a CSA is a CSA is a
CSA.
> > Get it?You can euthanize them and they will still be a CSA, only
> no
> > longerhere with us.There is no cure, and no way to change this
> > path.Only partial healing, partial comfort and hopefully enough
> > skills intime to have peaceful relationships. What kinds of
> > SACRIFICES thispeace comes at...Well you are beginning to
> understand
> > IF YOU ARE HERE.As you don't find the TRUCE agreeable obviously,
> and
> > are lackingsomething you want most likely. TOUGH LUCK, PoS!This
IS
> > the truce, or possibly almost as good as it will get. DON'T TAKE
> IT
> > PERSONAL. -the next one, if you leave, will get the samedeal, no
> > matter what you believe or hear. IN THIS WAY you are no
> morespecial
> > than anyone and anything else- or in that the mind of your
> CSApartner
> > works like ALL the minds we humans are born with work. Gritsdon't
> > take 2 minutes to cook on their stove and 5 minutes for the
restof
> > the world. And broken and damaged means broken and
> damaged.Something
> > is missing and always will be- a happy and safe childhoodand
> youth.
> > Something replaced it- horrors beyond anything you CAN
> > EVERunderstand, unless you too are a CSA. Don't try believing you
> CAN
> > understand it. You won't fool the CSA. They KNOW you didn't
> > experience it and in partthey possibly hate you for this, and
> > everyone who was "luckier" thanthey were.Psychology isn't perhaps
> the
> > avenue for "healing" as it is based ontrial and case studies to
> set
> > the precedent. Unfortunately, for thoseof you seeking hope and
who
> > want facts, as I've said before, this willcome as bad news, as
the
> > outlook -YES, US VERY BLEAK. Very bleak. Ofcourse depending on
the
> > situation and subtle details, the resiliency,duration of abuse,
> the
> > possibly healthy paradigms in place before itall happened, the
> > support structure, the recognition andacknowledgment of it all...
> a
> > myriad of little factors... BUT...THERE ARE ALMOST NO INSTANCES
> > REPORTED AND STUDIED IN MILLIONS ANDMILLIONS OF CASES WHERE A CSA
> > EVER BECOMES SOMEONE OTHER THAN A CSA.That means, while symptoms
> and
> > triggers can slowly ease up over timeand with professional help
> > (should the CSA seek and stick with it),They NEVER completely go
> > away.Not even with positive thinking, and forward healing and
> > alternativemedicine. The CSA often learns to simply NOT talk to
> their
> > spouses orsignificant others and partners about it, and perhaps
> only
> > to atrusted friend- quite possibly someone just like them. This
is
> > verycommon for those of you who have and have been in longer
> > relationshipsor are older and have a CSA partner or know someone
> who
> > had such achildhood/youth. They just learn to cover it up
and "act
> > normal".The bag lady or the guy talking to the post most possibly
> > once wereinvolved in situations like you are involved with now-
> and
> > finallythrough their own issues, destroyed. You see the result of
> the
> > typicalCHOICES of a CSA when you see one of these older street
> > people: whereis their family? Where are their children? Where is
> > their partner,their loved ones, their history, their past?-WHAT
> > happened?Yes it inspires compassion often. And yes it is hard to
> > imagine thatperson you love ending up like that. I'll bet it was
> the
> > same forthese street people and their partners as well though. In
> the
> > end, the river flows to the sea and we return to our sourcedown
> the
> > channel and path we choose and make for ourselves.The CSA, in
> modern
> > society, as A PART of society, has a path carved instone. They
can
> > NEVER feel normal about what happened to them BECAUSEIT ISN'T
> NORMAL
> > OR HEALTHY within the rules of the society they arein, and in
> part,
> > include themselves in. Maybe that is the crux of muchof the
> problem.
> > Even if one were to put CSA's in special homes, whereeveryone
> > including the staff was just like them, ONE OF THE
BIGGESTPROBLEMS
> IS
> > THEY ARE THEIR OWN JUDGE AND JURY.A CSA can not make peace with
> the
> > war that wages within themselves.Blame, guilt, shame, rage,
anger,
> > hate, love, pleasure, pain... somuch that will never settle.
These
> > are the foundations of the symptomsthat most of you experience as
> > PoS's and what brings you to placeslike this looking for help,
> > answers or solutions,-and HOPE.In the end, like you and I and
> anyone,
> > a CSA seek comfort; what isnormal and safe for themselves, what
> their
> > earliest experiences were.Something to give respite. Drugs,
> alcohol,
> > addictions, Drama, noise,thrills, disaster, anything to make the
> pain
> > and static go away for atleast a little while. Anything to bring
> them
> > back to the world as theyfirst began to know it on a regular
> basis,
> > between the ages of 1 and 7years old. If the trauma and abuse was
> > lengthy and deep, between 1 and 13-14years old, then this is what
> > they seek as comfort for the rest oftheir lives. There is, again,
> no
> > cure. There never has been and in our lifetimespossibly never
will
> > be, as not only do the CSA's need help, and thepeople who stay,
> but
> > the very societies where they are born, bred,live in and were
> created
> > in have something in desperate need ofhealing, that is in itself
> very
> > ill. Think about that.----------------------------If you want
> > something, those of you who need a lifeline, to hold ontoand help
> > yourselves, try and find ANYTHING on "EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE"Time-
> > Life (or something similar) has something similar on the
> > subject,maybe even there is an "idiots guide to emotional
> > intelligence"...???(*grin* -I sure could have used one!)...For
> sure
> > there are a few small entry-level publications out there
thatmight
> > open the doors to your mind and being about what you're
involvedin
> > and what you CAN DO to help yourself to regain your
> happiness,peace
> > and integrity. There are also some heavier books on the subjectif
> you
> > desire.Those of you who are in LTR's with CSA's, maybe it works
in
> > yoursituation, or maybe you are more similar to your CSA than you
> > care tobe honest about, or maybe you only know part of their
> sides,
> > and therest they hide for fear of loosing something, as I said
> above.
> > Also,if you are lucky, quite possibly your CSA isn't so damaged
> and
> > maybedoesn't have a serious emotional disorder and mental illness
> > from theevents, while perhaps for all you know everyone else on
> here
> > who isrunning into far worse issues than you and your partner
have
> > everencountered.That might be hope for those of you who come here
> > seeking an outlet.In the end, that is all this is, really- an
> outlet.
> > Rage, scream,type, vent- GET IT OUT!!!!Talk about it, and I'm
sure
> > we'll listen or vent our own feelings andthoughts ourselvesIn
> there,
> > and in the safety of this group- as safe as you can make it,is
> > something that might be condusive for your healing. We can't tell
> you
> > what will happen, nor how your story will work out.I'll bet even
> > those closest to you can't tell you what you will do. WeCAN tell
> you,
> > those of use who have done the research, what the oddsare and
what
> > kinds of typical outcomes are with CSA's, and why theterms co-
> > dependent and enabler exist, and why there are slang terms
> > inpsychology for the various flavors of people who stay involved
> > inrelationships with, say a BPD or Borderline Personality
> > Disordersuffering CSA. We CAN give you possible resources and
> > someinformation, but in the end, the help you get will be the
kind
> > yougive yourself, and seek from real professionals and counselors
> who
> > yousit down with, in person, week after week, to get some
> > perspectivewith and find your own integrity.Try and read the
stuff
> > you find on emotional intelligence, ask thehard questions about
> your
> > mate and their abilities, and try andremember your own dreams and
> > what YOU wanted- the kind of life youwanted to have and once
> dreamed
> > of.I guarantee you only this- a CSA will and can never give you
> > anythingyou dream about, unless you are very, very ill. If they
> > suffernoticeable symptoms to bring you to a place like this, they
> > classifyas "mentally and/or emotionally ill" and even with
> > professional helpfor years- maybe decades, their options for
> recovery
> > are quitepossibly very slim indeed.Or you probably wouldn't be
> > here.Those are the facts for them.For you?Perhaps when you're
> done,
> > you'll be done, and ready for the rest ofthe world again. You'll
> know
> > when you know, and until then, this iswhat you are choosing to
> help
> > you learn something only you understand. I'll bet there is a gift
> in
> > it though, if you survive intact.C.S. Lewis said that pain is the
> > greatest teacher of all- it makes usall that more aware of joy
and
> > the precious, priceless, short gift wehave that isLife.Again, may
> you
> > find your own peace in carrying this torch so bravely.And may
your
> > efforts help light up the dark in this night of thesesides of
> > humanity. My heart goes out with you, and my prayers.I'll be
> thinking
> > about you over the years.-JP
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

Thank you.


--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "danielsherenow"
<ragman21@...> wrote:
>
> I think you're speaking of Margaret Mead's "Coming of Age in
Samoa."
> As I recall, the idea of young people having sex with older ones
was
> to teach them about sex and sexuality, the idea that the old
should
> teach the young the secrets of sex.
> It should be mentioned that Mead's book is highly controversial,
and
> disputed by many in the field.
> As for its relevance to CSA, I'd have to say that the idea of
> betrayal --as Alisa perceptively points out -- is crucial, and
> probably counts more than cross-cultural references like "Samoa."
> When I deal with the effects of CSA in my own life and in my own
> relationship, I think the horror of betrayal counts more than
> anything else.
>
> Daniel
>
> --- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, Alisa
Balterman
> <alisabalterman@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello JP -
> >
> > I think your analyses of the tribe and it's customs verses what
> CSA's experience can be understood differently.  When I read about
> the tribe I thought - they are keeping sexual activity organized
and
> controlled by these activities and have an interest in who will be
> born through a marriage or pairing.  That would be why, I would
> guess, that they keep it all same sex till that point.  It is a
very
> interesting solution and I agree that they are comfortable with it
> because it is the norm for them.
> >
> > Yet, is it really the same context when we look at our culture?
> Are incest and rape really about acknowledging the pubescent
coming
> of sexual age part of the equation?  I think not - as a matter of
> fact I think that in most, if not all, of these cases the
experience
> is more about power for the perpetrator and sadly has very little
to
> do with the one they have chosen - perhaps only to the extent that
> they represent an opportunity.  I believe that the core issue is
that
> it is the betrayal, the lack of value the victim preceves that
both
> hurts and produces their fear.  These are what the challenges are
for
> a CSA in my opinion.As far as what we can do as partners in the
face
> of this, that is the question.  There are a huge percentage of
people
> who have experienced this to one degree or another, so the
> possibility of partnering up with someone who has been abused is
not
> a rare experience.  I think there is room to consider that both
the
> victim/survivor and their partner have a varying degree of
possibly
> working it out to become a viable relationship.  There are many
> factors for both parties in this.  I believe that we as partners
need
> to look at taking care of ourselves and mainly "do no harm" to the
> survivor.  I also believe that both parties need to acknowledge
their
> issues individually first and try to find ways to understand what
is
> going on without  blaming the other.
> >
> > I have to admit that I didn't throughly read your post and am
> responding to the first section.
> >
> > Alisa
> >
> >
> >
> > To: positivepartnersofsurvivors@: Brahmadomtao@: Sun, 28 Dec
> 2008 17:51:35 +0000Subject: [POS Vent- never forget you CAN vent
> HERE!!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you too, Brenda.I was on the bottom for a long time,
through
> my own doing, and someignorance about what and how the human being
> and our minds and healingwork. It was a long battle coming to sit
> with myself and realize itwas all lost perspective, lack of
> experience and walking close to thefringes of such damaged people
who
> often are very expressive and findcatharsis in artistic release.
As
> an artist and growing up in ahousehold of professional musicians
and
> artists, I was accustomed tobeing around damaged souls and didn't
> know what a damaged soul reallyWAS, except interesting as a
> personality trait. The human mind is like the human body: bend an
> elbow the wrong way andit breaks. That is the law of nature. The
mind
> has similar limits andpatterns of articulation that have, more and
> more, been "mapped" so tospeak, within certain contexts and
> constructs of understanding bymodern sciences. In S. America some
> anthropologist explorers in the last 40 or so yearsmade a
discovery
> that partially rocked the boat on what we know andunderstand
> about "normal". There was and is an article in NationalGeographic
> somewhere about this: a tribe that has existed for whoknows how
many
> tens of thousands of years and have a custom that iscompletely
normal
> for them. ...When children reach puberty they begin sexually
> servicing the oldermembers of the same gender as they are, moving
> into a communal areawith these elders. Both boys and girls become
> sort of "concubines" fortheir elders, including their own parents.
> The boys normally performoral sex on the older men (they're taught
to
> swallow- they are thatspecific and open about the practice), and
the
> girls, the same withthe older women. This goes on with the younger
> single people- who areFORBIDDEN to interact with each other or
even
> kiss or sleep near eachother (they're kept completely separate;
men
> in one compound, women inthe other), until a marriage is arranged.
> Once two single young peopleare married, they move OUT of the
> communal areas and into their own"hut", and are considered no
longer
> part of this sexual arrangement. When interviewed, and later in
> follow up interviews and studies, noissues with sexuality, abuse
or
> problems with their orientation werefound, nor continued desire
FOR
> the "unusual" sexual activities-though no problems WITH the
practice
> either. BECAUSE the youth aretaught (and in isolation to the rest
of
> the world's ways) that this ishow it is, and NORMAL, there seems
to
> be no weirdness emotionally orboundary wise and people accept it
> simply how it is and a part oflife. Even it is so ingrained in
their
> culture that they hardlyrealize it is a form of "sex" as modern
> society called it, or incest.Their consciousness was/is more
focused
> on other parts of their livesand even the relationships that had
> these events in them (theinterviewers found that the subjects were
> quite willing and open totalk about the practice but found it
strange
> that the interviewerswere not more interested in something more
> interesting). As it wastotally normal and the custom, no side
effects
> OF ANY KIND even overlong term studies was found in any of the
tribe
> members. Simply it wasand IS a way of life, that has NO ILL SIDE
> EFFECTS.I don't know if anything has been done since with these
> tribes andpeople- such as follow ups as the rain forests get less
and
> thesepeople come more and more into contact with the "modern"
world
> andpossibly emigrate some of them into it, what happens
> then...Interesting eh?Now those of you who are on here wanting
help
> and wanting tounderstand a bit more about these paradigms you've
> stumbled intoprobably in total ignorance, like I did, let that
above
> situation andthose tribal ways sit with you a bit and contemplate
it
> and thedifference between what YOU believe is right, and WHAT A
HUMAN
> BEINGis and HOW our minds and socialization can ARTICULATE in
healthy
> ways,as well as what you BELIEVE vs. how the human being works
> outside ofmorality and ethics and socialization.CSA's and abuse
> survivors find their ways 100% normal. YOU'RE THE ONEwith the REAL
> problem, PoS! You might think I am being cheeky orsarcastic
somehow,
> but in closed interviews, one of the biggest thingsthat CSA
survivors
> have confessed, when able to be sincere and honest(weather
> intentionally misleading or ignorant of themselves in theseways),
is
> the problem and inability to MATCH UP what THEY experiencedwith
HOW
> THE REST OF THE WORLD perceives it and seems to judge it.This goes
so
> deep and is such an issue that this very paradigm itselfis
> responsible and at the root of MUCH of the mental and
> emotionalillness that CSA's suffer from. There are variations on
this
> theme,just as there are variations on how betrayal and innocence
can
> belost, but in the end the common thread is the outlook and
> perspectiveeveryone around these issues shares in the modern
world.Of
> course, as such, CSA's either join modern society and accept
> thesocial customs, or find a "tribe" so to speak, where they
> are "normal"and can feel more at home, and less "judged" for what
is
> normal to them.Ironically, most CSA's DO seek and find tribes of a
> kind, where theycan feel more at home and at ease, same as any of
us,
> you or I: placeswhere people have issues that they won't be
solving
> any time soon. You can judge it if you like, but it is simply what
it
> is. Schoolchildren don't hang out on the corners with hookers and
> take a lot ofdrugs, become alcoholics and have alot of random sex
> with strangers inbathrooms and bars, and similar situations
(unless
> of course they areCSA's). THIS IS WHY there is judgmental
attitudes
> towards certainforms of "business" and occupations and activities
in
> place that havestrong christian backgrounds (I.E. a large part of,
> say, the USA).This is partially why we have such moral judgments
> against, say,hookers in front of elementary schools, to the point
> that the policewill come escort them to another location (is that
> legal? So whatgives?)...Perhaps the CSA's are simply a tribe
> displaced, and the people whoperpetrated the crimes part of
another
> kind and similar tribe, and inthe end, it is something somehow we
all
> have to find some kind ofpeace with. I don't know. Many options on
> the subject!Mental and emotional illness is often equated with
street
> people whohave grocery carts and bags and talk to lamp posts. The
> REALITY isprobably that more than 90% of the mental and
emotionally
> ill peoplelook just like everyone else. That is not to say (and
this
> is wherethe wheat separates from the chaff when it comes to people
> whounderstand what psychology is about vs. what it often seems to
> imply)that there IS A PERFECT ROLE MODEL OR EXAMPLE OF
> PERFECTMENTAL/EMOTIONAL HEALTH that is walking around or that we
all
> somehow"ought" to strive for or maintain. Psychology isn't about
> definingwhat THAT is (though that might make for some interesting
> conceptsthat need to be taken down)... Rather, this simply means,
> outside ofclinical diagnosis, as people have noticed, a lot of
people
> have a lotof issues. BUTmore and more I'd say most of the world's
> population DOES NOT SUFFERfrom any form of illness, dis-ease or
> mental/emotional problems. Ofcourse, no one LIKES being
frustrated,
> and being frustrated isprobably mostly the same for most of us- we
> can't think normal, can'tfind the solution easily, and that often
> makes us MORE frustrateduntil we take a step back and breathe and
re-
> assess, or take some timeout from the situation or issue that is
> frustrating us. Life isn'talways PLEASANT, as you know- but mental
> and emotional illness issuesCAN NOT BE RECOVERED FROM WITH SUCH
> EXERCISES as intentionally regaining self-perspective. Hence the
> term "dis-ease" or "illness".The term, "unballance" though DOES
> imply, say, a pendulum or see-sawthat has gone too far one way-
and
> as such, with skill and work, canpossibly BE "ballanced" again. Of
> course, if the underlying issuesthat UNballanced it are not healed
> and dealt with though, and wereCREATED in the FORMATIVE BONDING
years
> or via CSA abuse, forget aboutit; the unballance is there to stay
as
> it is a coping and damageprotection mechanism FOR survival.WHERE
THIS
> COMES INTO BEARING in situations like you possibly are in,is in
WHEN
> is it TREATABLE and when is it MORBIDLY OBSESSIVE and, soto
> speak, "terminal"?CSA's as a rule, are considered by
professionals,
> when you readbetween the lines (especially from authors and
> professionals with themost experience in dealing with them in the
> real world and how theytreat them in long term studies and as
> patients) as being simplypeople who one tries to "help make more
> comfortable with who they are"and their condition and situation,
to
> an extent. THERE IS RARELY aneffort to change anything about them.
> Rather, the process is tomonitor the CSA's who seek treatment,
> for "degrading and deteriorationover time". Then intervention is
the
> policy. THE PROCESS IS NOT TO "CURE"!!!! -No more than a
> concentration camp'sprocess was to cure people of being Jewish (is
> that a cure? What isthe illness? a religious choice? An enthnic
> supposition?).Professionals are not going to try and CURE the CSA
of
> BEING a CSA. Itcan't be DONE.... a CSA is a CSA is a CSA is a CSA.
> Get it?You can euthanize them and they will still be a CSA, only
no
> longerhere with us.There is no cure, and no way to change this
> path.Only partial healing, partial comfort and hopefully enough
> skills intime to have peaceful relationships. What kinds of
> SACRIFICES thispeace comes at...Well you are beginning to
understand
> IF YOU ARE HERE.As you don't find the TRUCE agreeable obviously,
and
> are lackingsomething you want most likely. TOUGH LUCK, PoS!This IS
> the truce, or possibly almost as good as it will get. DON'T TAKE
IT
> PERSONAL. -the next one, if you leave, will get the samedeal, no
> matter what you believe or hear. IN THIS WAY you are no
morespecial
> than anyone and anything else- or in that the mind of your
CSApartner
> works like ALL the minds we humans are born with work. Gritsdon't
> take 2 minutes to cook on their stove and 5 minutes for the restof
> the world. And broken and damaged means broken and
damaged.Something
> is missing and always will be- a happy and safe childhoodand
youth.
> Something replaced it- horrors beyond anything you CAN
> EVERunderstand, unless you too are a CSA. Don't try believing you
CAN
> understand it. You won't fool the CSA. They KNOW you didn't
> experience it and in partthey possibly hate you for this, and
> everyone who was "luckier" thanthey were.Psychology isn't perhaps
the
> avenue for "healing" as it is based ontrial and case studies to
set
> the precedent. Unfortunately, for thoseof you seeking hope and who
> want facts, as I've said before, this willcome as bad news, as the
> outlook -YES, US VERY BLEAK. Very bleak. Ofcourse depending on the
> situation and subtle details, the resiliency,duration of abuse,
the
> possibly healthy paradigms in place before itall happened, the
> support structure, the recognition andacknowledgment of it all...
a
> myriad of little factors... BUT...THERE ARE ALMOST NO INSTANCES
> REPORTED AND STUDIED IN MILLIONS ANDMILLIONS OF CASES WHERE A CSA
> EVER BECOMES SOMEONE OTHER THAN A CSA.That means, while symptoms
and
> triggers can slowly ease up over timeand with professional help
> (should the CSA seek and stick with it),They NEVER completely go
> away.Not even with positive thinking, and forward healing and
> alternativemedicine. The CSA often learns to simply NOT talk to
their
> spouses orsignificant others and partners about it, and perhaps
only
> to atrusted friend- quite possibly someone just like them. This is
> verycommon for those of you who have and have been in longer
> relationshipsor are older and have a CSA partner or know someone
who
> had such achildhood/youth. They just learn to cover it up and "act
> normal".The bag lady or the guy talking to the post most possibly
> once wereinvolved in situations like you are involved with now-
and
> finallythrough their own issues, destroyed. You see the result of
the
> typicalCHOICES of a CSA when you see one of these older street
> people: whereis their family? Where are their children? Where is
> their partner,their loved ones, their history, their past?-WHAT
> happened?Yes it inspires compassion often. And yes it is hard to
> imagine thatperson you love ending up like that. I'll bet it was
the
> same forthese street people and their partners as well though. In
the
> end, the river flows to the sea and we return to our sourcedown
the
> channel and path we choose and make for ourselves.The CSA, in
modern
> society, as A PART of society, has a path carved instone. They can
> NEVER feel normal about what happened to them BECAUSEIT ISN'T
NORMAL
> OR HEALTHY within the rules of the society they arein, and in
part,
> include themselves in. Maybe that is the crux of muchof the
problem.
> Even if one were to put CSA's in special homes, whereeveryone
> including the staff was just like them, ONE OF THE BIGGESTPROBLEMS
IS
> THEY ARE THEIR OWN JUDGE AND JURY.A CSA can not make peace with
the
> war that wages within themselves.Blame, guilt, shame, rage, anger,
> hate, love, pleasure, pain... somuch that will never settle. These
> are the foundations of the symptomsthat most of you experience as
> PoS's and what brings you to placeslike this looking for help,
> answers or solutions,-and HOPE.In the end, like you and I and
anyone,
> a CSA seek comfort; what isnormal and safe for themselves, what
their
> earliest experiences were.Something to give respite. Drugs,
alcohol,
> addictions, Drama, noise,thrills, disaster, anything to make the
pain
> and static go away for atleast a little while. Anything to bring
them
> back to the world as theyfirst began to know it on a regular
basis,
> between the ages of 1 and 7years old. If the trauma and abuse was
> lengthy and deep, between 1 and 13-14years old, then this is what
> they seek as comfort for the rest oftheir lives. There is, again,
no
> cure. There never has been and in our lifetimespossibly never will
> be, as not only do the CSA's need help, and thepeople who stay,
but
> the very societies where they are born, bred,live in and were
created
> in have something in desperate need ofhealing, that is in itself
very
> ill. Think about that.----------------------------If you want
> something, those of you who need a lifeline, to hold ontoand help
> yourselves, try and find ANYTHING on "EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE"Time-
> Life (or something similar) has something similar on the
> subject,maybe even there is an "idiots guide to emotional
> intelligence"...???(*grin* -I sure could have used one!)...For
sure
> there are a few small entry-level publications out there thatmight
> open the doors to your mind and being about what you're involvedin
> and what you CAN DO to help yourself to regain your
happiness,peace
> and integrity. There are also some heavier books on the subjectif
you
> desire.Those of you who are in LTR's with CSA's, maybe it works in
> yoursituation, or maybe you are more similar to your CSA than you
> care tobe honest about, or maybe you only know part of their
sides,
> and therest they hide for fear of loosing something, as I said
above.
> Also,if you are lucky, quite possibly your CSA isn't so damaged
and
> maybedoesn't have a serious emotional disorder and mental illness
> from theevents, while perhaps for all you know everyone else on
here
> who isrunning into far worse issues than you and your partner have
> everencountered.That might be hope for those of you who come here
> seeking an outlet.In the end, that is all this is, really- an
outlet.
> Rage, scream,type, vent- GET IT OUT!!!!Talk about it, and I'm sure
> we'll listen or vent our own feelings andthoughts ourselvesIn
there,
> and in the safety of this group- as safe as you can make it,is
> something that might be condusive for your healing. We can't tell
you
> what will happen, nor how your story will work out.I'll bet even
> those closest to you can't tell you what you will do. WeCAN tell
you,
> those of use who have done the research, what the oddsare and what
> kinds of typical outcomes are with CSA's, and why theterms co-
> dependent and enabler exist, and why there are slang terms
> inpsychology for the various flavors of people who stay involved
> inrelationships with, say a BPD or Borderline Personality
> Disordersuffering CSA. We CAN give you possible resources and
> someinformation, but in the end, the help you get will be the kind
> yougive yourself, and seek from real professionals and counselors
who
> yousit down with, in person, week after week, to get some
> perspectivewith and find your own integrity.Try and read the stuff
> you find on emotional intelligence, ask thehard questions about
your
> mate and their abilities, and try andremember your own dreams and
> what YOU wanted- the kind of life youwanted to have and once
dreamed
> of.I guarantee you only this- a CSA will and can never give you
> anythingyou dream about, unless you are very, very ill. If they
> suffernoticeable symptoms to bring you to a place like this, they
> classifyas "mentally and/or emotionally ill" and even with
> professional helpfor years- maybe decades, their options for
recovery
> are quitepossibly very slim indeed.Or you probably wouldn't be
> here.Those are the facts for them.For you?Perhaps when you're
done,
> you'll be done, and ready for the rest ofthe world again. You'll
know
> when you know, and until then, this iswhat you are choosing to
help
> you learn something only you understand. I'll bet there is a gift
in
> it though, if you survive intact.C.S. Lewis said that pain is the
> greatest teacher of all- it makes usall that more aware of joy and
> the precious, priceless, short gift wehave that isLife.Again, may
you
> find your own peace in carrying this torch so bravely.And may your
> efforts help light up the dark in this night of thesesides of
> humanity. My heart goes out with you, and my prayers.I'll be
thinking
> about you over the years.-JP
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

I think you're speaking of Margaret Mead's "Coming of Age in Samoa."
As I recall, the idea of young people having sex with older ones was
to teach them about sex and sexuality, the idea that the old should
teach the young the secrets of sex.
It should be mentioned that Mead's book is highly controversial, and
disputed by many in the field.
As for its relevance to CSA, I'd have to say that the idea of
betrayal --as Alisa perceptively points out -- is crucial, and
probably counts more than cross-cultural references like "Samoa."
When I deal with the effects of CSA in my own life and in my own
relationship, I think the horror of betrayal counts more than
anything else.

Daniel

--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, Alisa Balterman
<alisabalterman@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hello JP -
>
> I think your analyses of the tribe and it's customs verses what
CSA's experience can be understood differently.  When I read about
the tribe I thought - they are keeping sexual activity organized and
controlled by these activities and have an interest in who will be
born through a marriage or pairing.  That would be why, I would
guess, that they keep it all same sex till that point.  It is a very
interesting solution and I agree that they are comfortable with it
because it is the norm for them.
>
> Yet, is it really the same context when we look at our culture?
Are incest and rape really about acknowledging the pubescent coming
of sexual age part of the equation?  I think not - as a matter of
fact I think that in most, if not all, of these cases the experience
is more about power for the perpetrator and sadly has very little to
do with the one they have chosen - perhaps only to the extent that
they represent an opportunity.  I believe that the core issue is that
it is the betrayal, the lack of value the victim preceves that both
hurts and produces their fear.  These are what the challenges are for
a CSA in my opinion.As far as what we can do as partners in the face
of this, that is the question.  There are a huge percentage of people
who have experienced this to one degree or another, so the
possibility of partnering up with someone who has been abused is not
a rare experience.  I think there is room to consider that both the
victim/survivor and their partner have a varying degree of possibly
working it out to become a viable relationship.  There are many
factors for both parties in this.  I believe that we as partners need
to look at taking care of ourselves and mainly "do no harm" to the
survivor.  I also believe that both parties need to acknowledge their
issues individually first and try to find ways to understand what is
going on without  blaming the other.
>
> I have to admit that I didn't throughly read your post and am
responding to the first section.
>
> Alisa
>
>
>
> To: positivepartnersofsurvivors@...: Brahmadomtao@...: Sun, 28 Dec
2008 17:51:35 +0000Subject: [POS Vent- never forget you CAN vent
HERE!!!!
>
>
>
> Thank you too, Brenda.I was on the bottom for a long time, through
my own doing, and someignorance about what and how the human being
and our minds and healingwork. It was a long battle coming to sit
with myself and realize itwas all lost perspective, lack of
experience and walking close to thefringes of such damaged people who
often are very expressive and findcatharsis in artistic release. As
an artist and growing up in ahousehold of professional musicians and
artists, I was accustomed tobeing around damaged souls and didn't
know what a damaged soul reallyWAS, except interesting as a
personality trait. The human mind is like the human body: bend an
elbow the wrong way andit breaks. That is the law of nature. The mind
has similar limits andpatterns of articulation that have, more and
more, been "mapped" so tospeak, within certain contexts and
constructs of understanding bymodern sciences. In S. America some
anthropologist explorers in the last 40 or so yearsmade a discovery
that partially rocked the boat on what we know andunderstand
about "normal". There was and is an article in NationalGeographic
somewhere about this: a tribe that has existed for whoknows how many
tens of thousands of years and have a custom that iscompletely normal
for them. ...When children reach puberty they begin sexually
servicing the oldermembers of the same gender as they are, moving
into a communal areawith these elders. Both boys and girls become
sort of "concubines" fortheir elders, including their own parents.
The boys normally performoral sex on the older men (they're taught to
swallow- they are thatspecific and open about the practice), and the
girls, the same withthe older women. This goes on with the younger
single people- who areFORBIDDEN to interact with each other or even
kiss or sleep near eachother (they're kept completely separate; men
in one compound, women inthe other), until a marriage is arranged.
Once two single young peopleare married, they move OUT of the
communal areas and into their own"hut", and are considered no longer
part of this sexual arrangement. When interviewed, and later in
follow up interviews and studies, noissues with sexuality, abuse or
problems with their orientation werefound, nor continued desire FOR
the "unusual" sexual activities-though no problems WITH the practice
either. BECAUSE the youth aretaught (and in isolation to the rest of
the world's ways) that this ishow it is, and NORMAL, there seems to
be no weirdness emotionally orboundary wise and people accept it
simply how it is and a part oflife. Even it is so ingrained in their
culture that they hardlyrealize it is a form of "sex" as modern
society called it, or incest.Their consciousness was/is more focused
on other parts of their livesand even the relationships that had
these events in them (theinterviewers found that the subjects were
quite willing and open totalk about the practice but found it strange
that the interviewerswere not more interested in something more
interesting). As it wastotally normal and the custom, no side effects
OF ANY KIND even overlong term studies was found in any of the tribe
members. Simply it wasand IS a way of life, that has NO ILL SIDE
EFFECTS.I don't know if anything has been done since with these
tribes andpeople- such as follow ups as the rain forests get less and
thesepeople come more and more into contact with the "modern" world
andpossibly emigrate some of them into it, what happens
then...Interesting eh?Now those of you who are on here wanting help
and wanting tounderstand a bit more about these paradigms you've
stumbled intoprobably in total ignorance, like I did, let that above
situation andthose tribal ways sit with you a bit and contemplate it
and thedifference between what YOU believe is right, and WHAT A HUMAN
BEINGis and HOW our minds and socialization can ARTICULATE in healthy
ways,as well as what you BELIEVE vs. how the human being works
outside ofmorality and ethics and socialization.CSA's and abuse
survivors find their ways 100% normal. YOU'RE THE ONEwith the REAL
problem, PoS! You might think I am being cheeky orsarcastic somehow,
but in closed interviews, one of the biggest thingsthat CSA survivors
have confessed, when able to be sincere and honest(weather
intentionally misleading or ignorant of themselves in theseways), is
the problem and inability to MATCH UP what THEY experiencedwith HOW
THE REST OF THE WORLD perceives it and seems to judge it.This goes so
deep and is such an issue that this very paradigm itselfis
responsible and at the root of MUCH of the mental and
emotionalillness that CSA's suffer from. There are variations on this
theme,just as there are variations on how betrayal and innocence can
belost, but in the end the common thread is the outlook and
perspectiveeveryone around these issues shares in the modern world.Of
course, as such, CSA's either join modern society and accept
thesocial customs, or find a "tribe" so to speak, where they
are "normal"and can feel more at home, and less "judged" for what is
normal to them.Ironically, most CSA's DO seek and find tribes of a
kind, where theycan feel more at home and at ease, same as any of us,
you or I: placeswhere people have issues that they won't be solving
any time soon. You can judge it if you like, but it is simply what it
is. Schoolchildren don't hang out on the corners with hookers and
take a lot ofdrugs, become alcoholics and have alot of random sex
with strangers inbathrooms and bars, and similar situations (unless
of course they areCSA's). THIS IS WHY there is judgmental attitudes
towards certainforms of "business" and occupations and activities in
place that havestrong christian backgrounds (I.E. a large part of,
say, the USA).This is partially why we have such moral judgments
against, say,hookers in front of elementary schools, to the point
that the policewill come escort them to another location (is that
legal? So whatgives?)...Perhaps the CSA's are simply a tribe
displaced, and the people whoperpetrated the crimes part of another
kind and similar tribe, and inthe end, it is something somehow we all
have to find some kind ofpeace with. I don't know. Many options on
the subject!Mental and emotional illness is often equated with street
people whohave grocery carts and bags and talk to lamp posts. The
REALITY isprobably that more than 90% of the mental and emotionally
ill peoplelook just like everyone else. That is not to say (and this
is wherethe wheat separates from the chaff when it comes to people
whounderstand what psychology is about vs. what it often seems to
imply)that there IS A PERFECT ROLE MODEL OR EXAMPLE OF
PERFECTMENTAL/EMOTIONAL HEALTH that is walking around or that we all
somehow"ought" to strive for or maintain. Psychology isn't about
definingwhat THAT is (though that might make for some interesting
conceptsthat need to be taken down)... Rather, this simply means,
outside ofclinical diagnosis, as people have noticed, a lot of people
have a lotof issues. BUTmore and more I'd say most of the world's
population DOES NOT SUFFERfrom any form of illness, dis-ease or
mental/emotional problems. Ofcourse, no one LIKES being frustrated,
and being frustrated isprobably mostly the same for most of us- we
can't think normal, can'tfind the solution easily, and that often
makes us MORE frustrateduntil we take a step back and breathe and re-
assess, or take some timeout from the situation or issue that is
frustrating us. Life isn'talways PLEASANT, as you know- but mental
and emotional illness issuesCAN NOT BE RECOVERED FROM WITH SUCH
EXERCISES as intentionally regaining self-perspective. Hence the
term "dis-ease" or "illness".The term, "unballance" though DOES
imply, say, a pendulum or see-sawthat has gone too far one way- and
as such, with skill and work, canpossibly BE "ballanced" again. Of
course, if the underlying issuesthat UNballanced it are not healed
and dealt with though, and wereCREATED in the FORMATIVE BONDING years
or via CSA abuse, forget aboutit; the unballance is there to stay as
it is a coping and damageprotection mechanism FOR survival.WHERE THIS
COMES INTO BEARING in situations like you possibly are in,is in WHEN
is it TREATABLE and when is it MORBIDLY OBSESSIVE and, soto
speak, "terminal"?CSA's as a rule, are considered by professionals,
when you readbetween the lines (especially from authors and
professionals with themost experience in dealing with them in the
real world and how theytreat them in long term studies and as
patients) as being simplypeople who one tries to "help make more
comfortable with who they are"and their condition and situation, to
an extent. THERE IS RARELY aneffort to change anything about them.
Rather, the process is tomonitor the CSA's who seek treatment,
for "degrading and deteriorationover time". Then intervention is the
policy. THE PROCESS IS NOT TO "CURE"!!!! -No more than a
concentration camp'sprocess was to cure people of being Jewish (is
that a cure? What isthe illness? a religious choice? An enthnic
supposition?).Professionals are not going to try and CURE the CSA of
BEING a CSA. Itcan't be DONE.... a CSA is a CSA is a CSA is a CSA.
Get it?You can euthanize them and they will still be a CSA, only no
longerhere with us.There is no cure, and no way to change this
path.Only partial healing, partial comfort and hopefully enough
skills intime to have peaceful relationships. What kinds of
SACRIFICES thispeace comes at...Well you are beginning to understand
IF YOU ARE HERE.As you don't find the TRUCE agreeable obviously, and
are lackingsomething you want most likely. TOUGH LUCK, PoS!This IS
the truce, or possibly almost as good as it will get. DON'T TAKE IT
PERSONAL. -the next one, if you leave, will get the samedeal, no
matter what you believe or hear. IN THIS WAY you are no morespecial
than anyone and anything else- or in that the mind of your CSApartner
works like ALL the minds we humans are born with work. Gritsdon't
take 2 minutes to cook on their stove and 5 minutes for the restof
the world. And broken and damaged means broken and damaged.Something
is missing and always will be- a happy and safe childhoodand youth.
Something replaced it- horrors beyond anything you CAN
EVERunderstand, unless you too are a CSA. Don't try believing you CAN
understand it. You won't fool the CSA. They KNOW you didn't
experience it and in partthey possibly hate you for this, and
everyone who was "luckier" thanthey were.Psychology isn't perhaps the
avenue for "healing" as it is based ontrial and case studies to set
the precedent. Unfortunately, for thoseof you seeking hope and who
want facts, as I've said before, this willcome as bad news, as the
outlook -YES, US VERY BLEAK. Very bleak. Ofcourse depending on the
situation and subtle details, the resiliency,duration of abuse, the
possibly healthy paradigms in place before itall happened, the
support structure, the recognition andacknowledgment of it all... a
myriad of little factors... BUT...THERE ARE ALMOST NO INSTANCES
REPORTED AND STUDIED IN MILLIONS ANDMILLIONS OF CASES WHERE A CSA
EVER BECOMES SOMEONE OTHER THAN A CSA.That means, while symptoms and
triggers can slowly ease up over timeand with professional help
(should the CSA seek and stick with it),They NEVER completely go
away.Not even with positive thinking, and forward healing and
alternativemedicine. The CSA often learns to simply NOT talk to their
spouses orsignificant others and partners about it, and perhaps only
to atrusted friend- quite possibly someone just like them. This is
verycommon for those of you who have and have been in longer
relationshipsor are older and have a CSA partner or know someone who
had such achildhood/youth. They just learn to cover it up and "act
normal".The bag lady or the guy talking to the post most possibly
once wereinvolved in situations like you are involved with now- and
finallythrough their own issues, destroyed. You see the result of the
typicalCHOICES of a CSA when you see one of these older street
people: whereis their family? Where are their children? Where is
their partner,their loved ones, their history, their past?-WHAT
happened?Yes it inspires compassion often. And yes it is hard to
imagine thatperson you love ending up like that. I'll bet it was the
same forthese street people and their partners as well though. In the
end, the river flows to the sea and we return to our sourcedown the
channel and path we choose and make for ourselves.The CSA, in modern
society, as A PART of society, has a path carved instone. They can
NEVER feel normal about what happened to them BECAUSEIT ISN'T NORMAL
OR HEALTHY within the rules of the society they arein, and in part,
include themselves in. Maybe that is the crux of muchof the problem.
Even if one were to put CSA's in special homes, whereeveryone
including the staff was just like them, ONE OF THE BIGGESTPROBLEMS IS
THEY ARE THEIR OWN JUDGE AND JURY.A CSA can not make peace with the
war that wages within themselves.Blame, guilt, shame, rage, anger,
hate, love, pleasure, pain... somuch that will never settle. These
are the foundations of the symptomsthat most of you experience as
PoS's and what brings you to placeslike this looking for help,
answers or solutions,-and HOPE.In the end, like you and I and anyone,
a CSA seek comfort; what isnormal and safe for themselves, what their
earliest experiences were.Something to give respite. Drugs, alcohol,
addictions, Drama, noise,thrills, disaster, anything to make the pain
and static go away for atleast a little while. Anything to bring them
back to the world as theyfirst began to know it on a regular basis,
between the ages of 1 and 7years old. If the trauma and abuse was
lengthy and deep, between 1 and 13-14years old, then this is what
they seek as comfort for the rest oftheir lives. There is, again, no
cure. There never has been and in our lifetimespossibly never will
be, as not only do the CSA's need help, and thepeople who stay, but
the very societies where they are born, bred,live in and were created
in have something in desperate need ofhealing, that is in itself very
ill. Think about that.----------------------------If you want
something, those of you who need a lifeline, to hold ontoand help
yourselves, try and find ANYTHING on "EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE"Time-
Life (or something similar) has something similar on the
subject,maybe even there is an "idiots guide to emotional
intelligence"...???(*grin* -I sure could have used one!)...For sure
there are a few small entry-level publications out there thatmight
open the doors to your mind and being about what you're involvedin
and what you CAN DO to help yourself to regain your happiness,peace
and integrity. There are also some heavier books on the subjectif you
desire.Those of you who are in LTR's with CSA's, maybe it works in
yoursituation, or maybe you are more similar to your CSA than you
care tobe honest about, or maybe you only know part of their sides,
and therest they hide for fear of loosing something, as I said above.
Also,if you are lucky, quite possibly your CSA isn't so damaged and
maybedoesn't have a serious emotional disorder and mental illness
from theevents, while perhaps for all you know everyone else on here
who isrunning into far worse issues than you and your partner have
everencountered.That might be hope for those of you who come here
seeking an outlet.In the end, that is all this is, really- an outlet.
Rage, scream,type, vent- GET IT OUT!!!!Talk about it, and I'm sure
we'll listen or vent our own feelings andthoughts ourselvesIn there,
and in the safety of this group- as safe as you can make it,is
something that might be condusive for your healing. We can't tell you
what will happen, nor how your story will work out.I'll bet even
those closest to you can't tell you what you will do. WeCAN tell you,
those of use who have done the research, what the oddsare and what
kinds of typical outcomes are with CSA's, and why theterms co-
dependent and enabler exist, and why there are slang terms
inpsychology for the various flavors of people who stay involved
inrelationships with, say a BPD or Borderline Personality
Disordersuffering CSA. We CAN give you possible resources and
someinformation, but in the end, the help you get will be the kind
yougive yourself, and seek from real professionals and counselors who
yousit down with, in person, week after week, to get some
perspectivewith and find your own integrity.Try and read the stuff
you find on emotional intelligence, ask thehard questions about your
mate and their abilities, and try andremember your own dreams and
what YOU wanted- the kind of life youwanted to have and once dreamed
of.I guarantee you only this- a CSA will and can never give you
anythingyou dream about, unless you are very, very ill. If they
suffernoticeable symptoms to bring you to a place like this, they
classifyas "mentally and/or emotionally ill" and even with
professional helpfor years- maybe decades, their options for recovery
are quitepossibly very slim indeed.Or you probably wouldn't be
here.Those are the facts for them.For you?Perhaps when you're done,
you'll be done, and ready for the rest ofthe world again. You'll know
when you know, and until then, this iswhat you are choosing to help
you learn something only you understand. I'll bet there is a gift in
it though, if you survive intact.C.S. Lewis said that pain is the
greatest teacher of all- it makes usall that more aware of joy and
the precious, priceless, short gift wehave that isLife.Again, may you
find your own peace in carrying this torch so bravely.And may your
efforts help light up the dark in this night of thesesides of
humanity. My heart goes out with you, and my prayers.I'll be thinking
about you over the years.-JP
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hello JP -

I think your analyses of the tribe and it's customs verses what CSA's experience
can be understood differently.  When I read about the tribe I thought - they are
keeping sexual activity organized and controlled by these activities and have an
interest in who will be born through a marriage or pairing.  That would be why,
I would guess, that they keep it all same sex till that point.  It is a very
interesting solution and I agree that they are comfortable with it because it is
the norm for them.

Yet, is it really the same context when we look at our culture?  Are incest and
rape really about acknowledging the pubescent coming of sexual age part of the
equation?  I think not - as a matter of fact I think that in most, if not all,
of these cases the experience is more about power for the perpetrator and sadly
has very little to do with the one they have chosen - perhaps only to the extent
that they represent an opportunity.  I believe that the core issue is that it is
the betrayal, the lack of value the victim preceves that both hurts and produces
their fear.  These are what the challenges are for a CSA in my opinion.As far as
what we can do as partners in the face of this, that is the question.  There are
a huge percentage of people who have experienced this to one degree or another,
so the possibility of partnering up with someone who has been abused is not a
rare experience.  I think there is room to consider that both the
victim/survivor and their partner have a varying degree of possibly working it
out to become a viable relationship.  There are many factors for both parties in
this.  I believe that we as partners need to look at taking care of ourselves
and mainly "do no harm" to the survivor.  I also believe that both parties need
to acknowledge their issues individually first and try to find ways to
understand what is going on without  blaming the other.

I have to admit that I didn't throughly read your post and am responding to the
first section.

Alisa



To: positivepartnersofsurvivors@...:
Brahmadomtao@...: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:51:35 +0000Subject: [POS Vent-
never forget you CAN vent HERE!!!!



Thank you too, Brenda.I was on the bottom for a long time, through my own doing,
and someignorance about what and how the human being and our minds and
healingwork. It was a long battle coming to sit with myself and realize itwas
all lost perspective, lack of experience and walking close to thefringes of such
damaged people who often are very expressive and findcatharsis in artistic
release. As an artist and growing up in ahousehold of professional musicians and
artists, I was accustomed tobeing around damaged souls and didn't know what a
damaged soul reallyWAS, except interesting as a personality trait. The human
mind is like the human body: bend an elbow the wrong way andit breaks. That is
the law of nature. The mind has similar limits andpatterns of articulation that
have, more and more, been "mapped" so tospeak, within certain contexts and
constructs of understanding bymodern sciences. In S. America some anthropologist
explorers in the last 40 or so yearsmade a discovery that partially rocked the
boat on what we know andunderstand about "normal". There was and is an article
in NationalGeographic somewhere about this: a tribe that has existed for
whoknows how many tens of thousands of years and have a custom that iscompletely
normal for them. ...When children reach puberty they begin sexually servicing
the oldermembers of the same gender as they are, moving into a communal areawith
these elders. Both boys and girls become sort of "concubines" fortheir elders,
including their own parents. The boys normally performoral sex on the older men
(they're taught to swallow- they are thatspecific and open about the practice),
and the girls, the same withthe older women. This goes on with the younger
single people- who areFORBIDDEN to interact with each other or even kiss or
sleep near eachother (they're kept completely separate; men in one compound,
women inthe other), until a marriage is arranged. Once two single young
peopleare married, they move OUT of the communal areas and into their own"hut",
and are considered no longer part of this sexual arrangement. When interviewed,
and later in follow up interviews and studies, noissues with sexuality, abuse or
problems with their orientation werefound, nor continued desire FOR the
"unusual" sexual activities-though no problems WITH the practice either. BECAUSE
the youth aretaught (and in isolation to the rest of the world's ways) that this
ishow it is, and NORMAL, there seems to be no weirdness emotionally orboundary
wise and people accept it simply how it is and a part oflife. Even it is so
ingrained in their culture that they hardlyrealize it is a form of "sex" as
modern society called it, or incest.Their consciousness was/is more focused on
other parts of their livesand even the relationships that had these events in
them (theinterviewers found that the subjects were quite willing and open totalk
about the practice but found it strange that the interviewerswere not more
interested in something more interesting). As it wastotally normal and the
custom, no side effects OF ANY KIND even overlong term studies was found in any
of the tribe members. Simply it wasand IS a way of life, that has NO ILL SIDE
EFFECTS.I don't know if anything has been done since with these tribes
andpeople- such as follow ups as the rain forests get less and thesepeople come
more and more into contact with the "modern" world andpossibly emigrate some of
them into it, what happens then...Interesting eh?Now those of you who are on
here wanting help and wanting tounderstand a bit more about these paradigms
you've stumbled intoprobably in total ignorance, like I did, let that above
situation andthose tribal ways sit with you a bit and contemplate it and
thedifference between what YOU believe is right, and WHAT A HUMAN BEINGis and
HOW our minds and socialization can ARTICULATE in healthy ways,as well as what
you BELIEVE vs. how the human being works outside ofmorality and ethics and
socialization.CSA's and abuse survivors find their ways 100% normal. YOU'RE THE
ONEwith the REAL problem, PoS! You might think I am being cheeky orsarcastic
somehow, but in closed interviews, one of the biggest thingsthat CSA survivors
have confessed, when able to be sincere and honest(weather intentionally
misleading or ignorant of themselves in theseways), is the problem and inability
to MATCH UP what THEY experiencedwith HOW THE REST OF THE WORLD perceives it and
seems to judge it.This goes so deep and is such an issue that this very paradigm
itselfis responsible and at the root of MUCH of the mental and emotionalillness
that CSA's suffer from. There are variations on this theme,just as there are
variations on how betrayal and innocence can belost, but in the end the common
thread is the outlook and perspectiveeveryone around these issues shares in the
modern world.Of course, as such, CSA's either join modern society and accept
thesocial customs, or find a "tribe" so to speak, where they are "normal"and can
feel more at home, and less "judged" for what is normal to them.Ironically, most
CSA's DO seek and find tribes of a kind, where theycan feel more at home and at
ease, same as any of us, you or I: placeswhere people have issues that they
won't be solving any time soon. You can judge it if you like, but it is simply
what it is. Schoolchildren don't hang out on the corners with hookers and take a
lot ofdrugs, become alcoholics and have alot of random sex with strangers
inbathrooms and bars, and similar situations (unless of course they areCSA's).
THIS IS WHY there is judgmental attitudes towards certainforms of "business" and
occupations and activities in place that havestrong christian backgrounds (I.E.
a large part of, say, the USA).This is partially why we have such moral
judgments against, say,hookers in front of elementary schools, to the point that
the policewill come escort them to another location (is that legal? So
whatgives?)...Perhaps the CSA's are simply a tribe displaced, and the people
whoperpetrated the crimes part of another kind and similar tribe, and inthe end,
it is something somehow we all have to find some kind ofpeace with. I don't
know. Many options on the subject!Mental and emotional illness is often equated
with street people whohave grocery carts and bags and talk to lamp posts. The
REALITY isprobably that more than 90% of the mental and emotionally ill
peoplelook just like everyone else. That is not to say (and this is wherethe
wheat separates from the chaff when it comes to people whounderstand what
psychology is about vs. what it often seems to imply)that there IS A PERFECT
ROLE MODEL OR EXAMPLE OF PERFECTMENTAL/EMOTIONAL HEALTH that is walking around
or that we all somehow"ought" to strive for or maintain. Psychology isn't about
definingwhat THAT is (though that might make for some interesting conceptsthat
need to be taken down)... Rather, this simply means, outside ofclinical
diagnosis, as people have noticed, a lot of people have a lotof issues. BUTmore
and more I'd say most of the world's population DOES NOT SUFFERfrom any form of
illness, dis-ease or mental/emotional problems. Ofcourse, no one LIKES being
frustrated, and being frustrated isprobably mostly the same for most of us- we
can't think normal, can'tfind the solution easily, and that often makes us MORE
frustrateduntil we take a step back and breathe and re-assess, or take some
timeout from the situation or issue that is frustrating us. Life isn'talways
PLEASANT, as you know- but mental and emotional illness issuesCAN NOT BE
RECOVERED FROM WITH SUCH EXERCISES as intentionally regaining self-perspective.
Hence the term "dis-ease" or "illness".The term, "unballance" though DOES imply,
say, a pendulum or see-sawthat has gone too far one way- and as such, with skill
and work, canpossibly BE "ballanced" again. Of course, if the underlying
issuesthat UNballanced it are not healed and dealt with though, and wereCREATED
in the FORMATIVE BONDING years or via CSA abuse, forget aboutit; the unballance
is there to stay as it is a coping and damageprotection mechanism FOR
survival.WHERE THIS COMES INTO BEARING in situations like you possibly are in,is
in WHEN is it TREATABLE and when is it MORBIDLY OBSESSIVE and, soto speak,
"terminal"?CSA's as a rule, are considered by professionals, when you
readbetween the lines (especially from authors and professionals with themost
experience in dealing with them in the real world and how theytreat them in long
term studies and as patients) as being simplypeople who one tries to "help make
more comfortable with who they are"and their condition and situation, to an
extent. THERE IS RARELY aneffort to change anything about them. Rather, the
process is tomonitor the CSA's who seek treatment, for "degrading and
deteriorationover time". Then intervention is the policy. THE PROCESS IS NOT TO
"CURE"!!!! -No more than a concentration camp'sprocess was to cure people of
being Jewish (is that a cure? What isthe illness? a religious choice? An enthnic
supposition?).Professionals are not going to try and CURE the CSA of BEING a
CSA. Itcan't be DONE.... a CSA is a CSA is a CSA is a CSA. Get it?You can
euthanize them and they will still be a CSA, only no longerhere with us.There is
no cure, and no way to change this path.Only partial healing, partial comfort
and hopefully enough skills intime to have peaceful relationships. What kinds of
SACRIFICES thispeace comes at...Well you are beginning to understand IF YOU ARE
HERE.As you don't find the TRUCE agreeable obviously, and are lackingsomething
you want most likely. TOUGH LUCK, PoS!This IS the truce, or possibly almost as
good as it will get. DON'T TAKE IT PERSONAL. -the next one, if you leave, will
get the samedeal, no matter what you believe or hear. IN THIS WAY you are no
morespecial than anyone and anything else- or in that the mind of your
CSApartner works like ALL the minds we humans are born with work. Gritsdon't
take 2 minutes to cook on their stove and 5 minutes for the restof the world.
And broken and damaged means broken and damaged.Something is missing and always
will be- a happy and safe childhoodand youth. Something replaced it- horrors
beyond anything you CAN EVERunderstand, unless you too are a CSA. Don't try
believing you CAN understand it. You won't fool the CSA. They KNOW you didn't
experience it and in partthey possibly hate you for this, and everyone who was
"luckier" thanthey were.Psychology isn't perhaps the avenue for "healing" as it
is based ontrial and case studies to set the precedent. Unfortunately, for
thoseof you seeking hope and who want facts, as I've said before, this willcome
as bad news, as the outlook -YES, US VERY BLEAK. Very bleak. Ofcourse depending
on the situation and subtle details, the resiliency,duration of abuse, the
possibly healthy paradigms in place before itall happened, the support
structure, the recognition andacknowledgment of it all... a myriad of little
factors... BUT...THERE ARE ALMOST NO INSTANCES REPORTED AND STUDIED IN MILLIONS
ANDMILLIONS OF CASES WHERE A CSA EVER BECOMES SOMEONE OTHER THAN A CSA.That
means, while symptoms and triggers can slowly ease up over timeand with
professional help (should the CSA seek and stick with it),They NEVER completely
go away.Not even with positive thinking, and forward healing and
alternativemedicine. The CSA often learns to simply NOT talk to their spouses
orsignificant others and partners about it, and perhaps only to atrusted friend-
quite possibly someone just like them. This is verycommon for those of you who
have and have been in longer relationshipsor are older and have a CSA partner or
know someone who had such achildhood/youth. They just learn to cover it up and
"act normal".The bag lady or the guy talking to the post most possibly once
wereinvolved in situations like you are involved with now- and finallythrough
their own issues, destroyed. You see the result of the typicalCHOICES of a CSA
when you see one of these older street people: whereis their family? Where are
their children? Where is their partner,their loved ones, their history, their
past?-WHAT happened?Yes it inspires compassion often. And yes it is hard to
imagine thatperson you love ending up like that. I'll bet it was the same
forthese street people and their partners as well though. In the end, the river
flows to the sea and we return to our sourcedown the channel and path we choose
and make for ourselves.The CSA, in modern society, as A PART of society, has a
path carved instone. They can NEVER feel normal about what happened to them
BECAUSEIT ISN'T NORMAL OR HEALTHY within the rules of the society they arein,
and in part, include themselves in. Maybe that is the crux of muchof the
problem. Even if one were to put CSA's in special homes, whereeveryone including
the staff was just like them, ONE OF THE BIGGESTPROBLEMS IS THEY ARE THEIR OWN
JUDGE AND JURY.A CSA can not make peace with the war that wages within
themselves.Blame, guilt, shame, rage, anger, hate, love, pleasure, pain...
somuch that will never settle. These are the foundations of the symptomsthat
most of you experience as PoS's and what brings you to placeslike this looking
for help, answers or solutions,-and HOPE.In the end, like you and I and anyone,
a CSA seek comfort; what isnormal and safe for themselves, what their earliest
experiences were.Something to give respite. Drugs, alcohol, addictions, Drama,
noise,thrills, disaster, anything to make the pain and static go away for
atleast a little while. Anything to bring them back to the world as theyfirst
began to know it on a regular basis, between the ages of 1 and 7years old. If
the trauma and abuse was lengthy and deep, between 1 and 13-14years old, then
this is what they seek as comfort for the rest oftheir lives. There is, again,
no cure. There never has been and in our lifetimespossibly never will be, as not
only do the CSA's need help, and thepeople who stay, but the very societies
where they are born, bred,live in and were created in have something in
desperate need ofhealing, that is in itself very ill. Think about
that.----------------------------If you want something, those of you who need a
lifeline, to hold ontoand help yourselves, try and find ANYTHING on "EMOTIONAL
INTELLIGENCE"Time-Life (or something similar) has something similar on the
subject,maybe even there is an "idiots guide to emotional
intelligence"...???(*grin* -I sure could have used one!)...For sure there are a
few small entry-level publications out there thatmight open the doors to your
mind and being about what you're involvedin and what you CAN DO to help yourself
to regain your happiness,peace and integrity. There are also some heavier books
on the subjectif you desire.Those of you who are in LTR's with CSA's, maybe it
works in yoursituation, or maybe you are more similar to your CSA than you care
tobe honest about, or maybe you only know part of their sides, and therest they
hide for fear of loosing something, as I said above. Also,if you are lucky,
quite possibly your CSA isn't so damaged and maybedoesn't have a serious
emotional disorder and mental illness from theevents, while perhaps for all you
know everyone else on here who isrunning into far worse issues than you and your
partner have everencountered.That might be hope for those of you who come here
seeking an outlet.In the end, that is all this is, really- an outlet. Rage,
scream,type, vent- GET IT OUT!!!!Talk about it, and I'm sure we'll listen or
vent our own feelings andthoughts ourselvesIn there, and in the safety of this
group- as safe as you can make it,is something that might be condusive for your
healing. We can't tell you what will happen, nor how your story will work
out.I'll bet even those closest to you can't tell you what you will do. WeCAN
tell you, those of use who have done the research, what the oddsare and what
kinds of typical outcomes are with CSA's, and why theterms co-dependent and
enabler exist, and why there are slang terms inpsychology for the various
flavors of people who stay involved inrelationships with, say a BPD or
Borderline Personality Disordersuffering CSA. We CAN give you possible resources
and someinformation, but in the end, the help you get will be the kind yougive
yourself, and seek from real professionals and counselors who yousit down with,
in person, week after week, to get some perspectivewith and find your own
integrity.Try and read the stuff you find on emotional intelligence, ask thehard
questions about your mate and their abilities, and try andremember your own
dreams and what YOU wanted- the kind of life youwanted to have and once dreamed
of.I guarantee you only this- a CSA will and can never give you anythingyou
dream about, unless you are very, very ill. If they suffernoticeable symptoms to
bring you to a place like this, they classifyas "mentally and/or emotionally
ill" and even with professional helpfor years- maybe decades, their options for
recovery are quitepossibly very slim indeed.Or you probably wouldn't be
here.Those are the facts for them.For you?Perhaps when you're done, you'll be
done, and ready for the rest ofthe world again. You'll know when you know, and
until then, this iswhat you are choosing to help you learn something only you
understand. I'll bet there is a gift in it though, if you survive intact.C.S.
Lewis said that pain is the greatest teacher of all- it makes usall that more
aware of joy and the precious, priceless, short gift wehave that isLife.Again,
may you find your own peace in carrying this torch so bravely.And may your
efforts help light up the dark in this night of thesesides of humanity. My heart
goes out with you, and my prayers.I'll be thinking about you over the years.-JP






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you Simon for your honesty.


I think perhaps one of the biggest issues with applying and accepting
such terms is the SAME for all of us human beings- WE FEEL JUDGED AND
LESS THAN somehow than the other over there....

For those of you who are continuing with your partners who are CSA's,
remember that feeling JUDGED is a human emotion. It's not your job to
help someone else NOT feel judged, as they are fee to make up whatever
they want to feel judged by and that game could last forever.

It is their responsibility, just like it is our own, If we want to
grow, learn, heal and change, to simply accept the terms in use in
modern medicine, for HOW THEY MIGHT HELP AND GUIDE US.

Being able to accept a term, after asking for it (if it is given) and
then using that to help you overcome and grow up more, and become more
of a SELF-GOVERNED AND FREE INDIVIDUAL living the life you choose
I'd say is one of the most bravest and singular acts of love one can
make and give to oneself.


Meditate on the WORST TERMS you could be called-

Crazy
Insane
Mentally Ill
borderline personality disorder
Schizophrenic
F**ked up
Faggot
Gay
Lesbian
Twisted
Heaven I don't know- make your own hell list
and simply....

SIT WITH IT
and say

"...what if it's all true. HOW much does it matter?
HOW MUCH does that define who I am inside of myself...???"


And then choose at some point
what is worth keeping
and what to throw away
and what you can learn from any of it


And remember, like always
get as much perspective as you can

Meaning, feel free to see if other people are comfortable with
labeling you in a sincere way, and tell them you give them permission
to do it (or write it down for you).


Equilibrium is a state of ballance. Judemental terms are things we
don't need to run from, but like Simon, we can use them to empower
ourselves to be something more, greater and vaster as human beings.

I'll bet Simon, in the worst of your co-dependency inclinations, that
there was parts of you that were ANYTHING but co-dependent.

Interesting how it works, and how often we can't see it until we
simply get honest about it.

;)



--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "smoothpebble69"
<simonfrog@...> wrote:
>
> okay yall gonna just get this out here.  Daisy, love that you work
> for some sort of peace, a cure, I mean what is it that one is working
> towards matters, so partners make sure that you know what you are
> looking for and it will help the process tremendously.
> A few of you know me and the ex-mrs-frog.  You saw us come on here as
> newbie discovering that life has turned into a madhouse and this
> thing, this atrocity, called CSA was the cause, and now that I know
> what it is I am going to beat it.  Success stories, willie wonka's
> golden ticket, searching for hope of any kind, yeah I was there.  My
> story is not one that you have to go back and research, because it
> was so much like every other story on this group.
> I am writing you all tonight to let you know that most CSA's are
> borderline personality disorder sufferers... really want to know what
> is going on?  Put down ghosts, allies, and courage and pick up the
> borderline mother... 10:1 it will make much more sense.  If you are
> going to fight a dragon, know what makes it up.  Know its weaknesses
> and know where it is going to attack you.
> Which is politely telling you that just as a 90+% of CSA victims are
> borderlines, the same percentage rings true to partners of Survivors
> being co-dependent.  I know I know, I am not co-dependent, I just
> love so much, there is nothing wrong with loving someone, I loved
> them and look at what they are doing to me...
> look at the math.  You are expecting a change out of another human
> being that you found compatiblity with, odds are you have found
> previous encounters that treated you similarly, and you want change?
> Change is the only thing...but it must come from within.
> if you continue trying to create chaos for the illusion of having
> control, or to present the illusion that you are there/here to help
> or heal, you are only going to add to the problem.  If you allow,
> accept or inable a behavior, then bitch moan groan about how horrible
> they are treating you after all that you have done to/for them, then
> you are feeding the behavior.  if your behavior is as predictable as
> their behavior, then asking them to change without changing your own
> self, at least taking a serious look into the matter with some
> qualified professional help is just selfish.
> I hear, and I did my share of whining that I wanted her to go to
> therapy, tried my best to save my marriage, and failed only in saving
> my marriage, because I wound up saving my own life, and salvaging a
> good friendship with a woman who is a whole lot fucked up in the head
> from the neighbor and probably a family member that had their way
> with her from the ages of 4-12.
> her therapy would not have mattered so long as my sickness of co-
> dependence needed fed.  You ask for and recieve everything that
> happens to you.  It is true!  Took a really good therapist and much
> literature to figure it out, but if you are not willing to look
> within yourself and make a change, get off of your high horses and
> quit expecting change from them.  My ex and I are very good friends.
> I do believe if I had gotten a grip sooner, we may have been able to
> salvage the marriage, but I was so caught up in being a victim and
> defending that I had no part of how fucked up she was.
> co-dependency
> a taboo word here
> finding out more about it saved my life
> had I the courage to face it sooner it may have saved my marriage
> you want help?
> look into it, because your partner's behavior is a reaction to your
> own.
> Sorry it is so matter of fact
> Simon
>

--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "chelsi47"
<chelsi47@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know of a site for parents of both the molester and the
> victim?  We are grieving for both of our children, and need to find a
> way to get through the holidays.
>


Probably the best thing, if you haven't found out yet, is
supplementing anything you're doing to cope (like on here) with some
professional therapy. Find a therapist who is comfortable with the
situation and your story, and with seeing the two of you (parents)
together, separate and possibly the children as well.

Isolated incidents with children are not, in the greater events and
stories with what many people deal with on here, so scary. As long as
there is some professional help for you both and some certified
therapists and professionals involved, the scars and damage can quite
possible be quite negligible, and reduce over the years, pending the
specifics of the situation and other factors that you might not know
about or be disclosing (from your own childhoods, patterns possibly in
behavior and awareness or simply boundary awareness and other issues).

I come on here sometimes to remind people that this is an internet
circle and as such, few regulations and conditions, nor "doctors in
the house". So for sure, just like everyone else, if you're not seeing
a certified professional, that is always the next step.

I imagine this is quite a difficult time for the both of you, let
alone the other people involved.

Thank you too, Brenda.

I was on the bottom for a long time, through my own doing, and some
ignorance about what and how the human being and our minds and healing
work. It was a long battle coming to sit with myself and realize it
was all lost perspective, lack of experience and walking close to the
fringes of such damaged people who often are very expressive and find
catharsis in artistic release. As an artist and growing up in a
household of professional musicians and artists, I was accustomed to
being around damaged souls and didn't know what a damaged soul really
WAS, except interesting as a personality trait.

The human mind is like the human body: bend an elbow the wrong way and
it breaks. That is the law of nature. The mind has similar limits and
patterns of articulation that have, more and more, been "mapped" so to
speak, within certain contexts and constructs of understanding by
modern sciences.

In S. America some anthropologist explorers in the last 40 or so years
made a discovery that partially rocked the boat on what we know and
understand about "normal". There was and is an article in National
Geographic somewhere about this: a tribe that has existed for who
knows how many tens of thousands of years and have a custom that is
completely normal for them.
...When children reach puberty they begin sexually servicing the older
members of the same gender as they are, moving into a communal area
with these elders. Both boys and girls become sort of "concubines" for
their elders, including their own parents. The boys normally perform
oral sex on the older men (they're taught to swallow- they are that
specific and open about the practice), and the girls, the same with
the older women. This goes on with the younger single people- who are
FORBIDDEN to interact with each other or even kiss or sleep near each
other (they're kept completely separate; men in one compound, women in
the other), until a marriage is arranged. Once two single young people
are married, they move OUT of the communal areas and into their own
"hut", and are considered no longer part of this sexual arrangement.
When interviewed, and later in follow up interviews and studies, no
issues with sexuality, abuse or problems with their orientation were
found, nor continued desire FOR the "unusual" sexual activities-
though no problems WITH the practice either. BECAUSE the youth are
taught (and in isolation to the rest of the world's ways) that this is
how it is, and NORMAL, there seems to be no weirdness emotionally or
boundary wise and people accept it simply how it is and a part of
life. Even it is so ingrained in their culture that they hardly
realize it is a form of "sex" as modern society called it, or incest.
Their consciousness was/is more focused on other parts of their lives
and even the relationships that had these events in them (the
interviewers found that the subjects were quite willing and open to
talk about the practice but found it strange that the interviewers
were not more interested in something more interesting). As it was
totally normal and the custom, no side effects OF ANY KIND even over
long term studies was found in any of the tribe members. Simply it was
and IS a way of life, that has NO ILL SIDE EFFECTS.

I don't know if anything has been done since with these tribes and
people- such as follow ups as the rain forests get less and these
people come more and more into contact with the "modern" world and
possibly emigrate some of them into it, what happens then...
Interesting eh?

Now those of you who are on here wanting help and wanting to
understand a bit more about these paradigms you've stumbled into
probably in total ignorance, like I did, let that above situation and
those tribal ways sit with you a bit and contemplate it and the
difference between what YOU believe is right, and WHAT A HUMAN BEING
is and HOW our minds and socialization can ARTICULATE in healthy ways,
as well as what you BELIEVE vs. how the human being works outside of
morality and ethics and socialization.

CSA's and abuse survivors find their ways 100% normal. YOU'RE THE ONE
with the REAL problem, PoS! You might think I am being cheeky or
sarcastic somehow, but in closed interviews, one of the biggest things
that CSA survivors have confessed, when able to be sincere and honest
(weather intentionally misleading or ignorant of themselves in these
ways), is the problem and inability to MATCH UP what THEY experienced
with HOW THE REST OF THE WORLD perceives it and seems to judge it.
This goes so deep and is such an issue that this very paradigm itself
is responsible and at the root of MUCH of the mental and emotional
illness that CSA's suffer from. There are variations on this theme,
just as there are variations on how betrayal and innocence can be
lost, but in the end the common thread is the outlook and perspective
everyone around these issues shares in the modern world.

Of course, as such, CSA's either join modern society and accept the
social customs, or find a "tribe" so to speak, where they are "normal"
and can feel more at home, and less "judged" for what is normal to them.

Ironically, most CSA's DO seek and find tribes of a kind, where they
can feel more at home and at ease, same as any of us, you or I: places
where people have issues that they won't be solving any time soon.

You can judge it if you like, but it is simply what it is. School
children don't hang out on the corners with hookers and take a lot of
drugs, become alcoholics and have alot of random sex with strangers in
bathrooms and bars, and similar situations (unless of course they are
CSA's). THIS IS WHY there is judgmental attitudes towards certain
forms of "business" and occupations and activities in place that have
strong christian backgrounds (I.E. a large part of, say, the USA).
This is partially why we have such moral judgments against, say,
hookers in front of elementary schools, to the point that the police
will come escort them to another location (is that legal? So what
gives?)...

Perhaps the CSA's are simply a tribe displaced, and the people who
perpetrated the crimes part of another kind and similar tribe, and in
the end, it is something somehow we all have to find some kind of
peace with. I don't know. Many options on the subject!




Mental and emotional illness is often equated with street people who
have grocery carts and bags and talk to lamp posts. The REALITY is
probably that more than 90% of the mental and emotionally ill people
look just like everyone else. That is not to say (and this is where
the wheat separates from the chaff when it comes to people who
understand what psychology is about vs. what it often seems to imply)
that there IS A PERFECT ROLE MODEL OR EXAMPLE OF PERFECT
MENTAL/EMOTIONAL HEALTH that is walking around or that we all somehow
"ought" to strive for or maintain. Psychology isn't about defining
what THAT is (though that might make for some interesting concepts
that need to be taken down)... Rather, this simply means, outside of
clinical diagnosis, as people have noticed, a lot of people have a lot
of issues.

BUT
more and more I'd say most of the world's population DOES NOT SUFFER
from any form of illness, dis-ease or mental/emotional problems. Of
course, no one LIKES being frustrated, and being frustrated is
probably mostly the same for most of us- we can't think normal, can't
find the solution easily, and that often makes us MORE frustrated
until we take a step back and breathe and re-assess, or take some time
out from the situation or issue that is frustrating us. Life isn't
always PLEASANT, as you know- but mental and emotional illness issues
CAN NOT BE RECOVERED FROM WITH SUCH EXERCISES as intentionally
regaining self-perspective.
Hence the term "dis-ease" or "illness".

The term, "unballance" though DOES imply, say, a pendulum or see-saw
that has gone too far one way- and as such, with skill and work, can
possibly BE "ballanced" again. Of course, if the underlying issues
that UNballanced it are not healed and dealt with though, and were
CREATED in the FORMATIVE BONDING years or via CSA abuse, forget about
it; the unballance is there to stay as it is a coping and damage
protection mechanism FOR survival.

WHERE THIS COMES INTO BEARING in situations like you possibly are in,
is in WHEN is it TREATABLE and when is it MORBIDLY OBSESSIVE and, so
to speak, "terminal"?

CSA's as a rule, are considered by professionals, when you read
between the lines (especially from authors and professionals with the
most experience in dealing with them in the real world and how they
treat them in long term studies and as patients) as being simply
people who one tries to "help make more comfortable with who they are"
and their condition and situation, to an extent. THERE IS RARELY an
effort to change anything about them. Rather, the process is to
monitor the CSA's who seek treatment, for "degrading and deterioration
over time". Then intervention is the policy.

THE PROCESS IS NOT TO "CURE"!!!! -No more than a concentration camp's
process was to cure people of being Jewish (is that a cure? What is
the illness? a religious choice? An enthnic supposition?).
Professionals are not going to try and CURE the CSA of BEING a CSA. It
can't be DONE.... a CSA is a CSA is a CSA is a CSA.
Get it?
You can euthanize them and they will still be a CSA, only no longer
here with us.

There is no cure, and no way to change this path.
Only partial healing, partial comfort and hopefully enough skills in
time to have peaceful relationships. What kinds of SACRIFICES this
peace comes at...Well you are beginning to understand IF YOU ARE HERE.
As you don't find the TRUCE agreeable obviously, and are lacking
something you want most likely.

TOUGH LUCK, PoS!
This IS the truce, or possibly almost as good as it will get.
DON'T TAKE IT PERSONAL. -the next one, if you leave, will get the same
deal, no matter what you believe or hear. IN THIS WAY you are no more
special than anyone and anything else- or in that the mind of your CSA
partner works like ALL the minds we humans are born with work. Grits
don't take 2 minutes to cook on their stove and 5 minutes for the rest
of the world. And broken and damaged means broken and damaged.
Something is missing and always will be- a happy and safe childhood
and youth. Something replaced it- horrors beyond anything you CAN EVER
understand, unless you too are a CSA.

Don't try believing you CAN understand it.
You won't fool the CSA. They KNOW you didn't experience it and in part
they possibly hate you for this, and everyone who was "luckier" than
they were.



Psychology isn't perhaps the avenue for "healing" as it is based on
trial and case studies to set the precedent. Unfortunately, for those
of you seeking hope and who want facts, as I've said before, this will
come as bad news, as the outlook -YES, US VERY BLEAK. Very bleak. Of
course depending on the situation and subtle details, the resiliency,
duration of abuse, the possibly healthy paradigms in place before it
all happened, the support structure, the recognition and
acknowledgment of it all... a myriad of little factors...
BUT...

THERE ARE ALMOST NO INSTANCES REPORTED AND STUDIED IN MILLIONS AND
MILLIONS OF CASES WHERE A CSA EVER BECOMES SOMEONE OTHER THAN A CSA.
That means, while symptoms and triggers can slowly ease up over time
and with professional help (should the CSA seek and stick with it),
They NEVER completely go away.

Not even with positive thinking, and forward healing and alternative
medicine.


The CSA often learns to simply NOT talk to their spouses or
significant others and partners about it, and perhaps only to a
trusted friend- quite possibly someone just like them. This is very
common for those of you who have and have been in longer relationships
or are older and have a CSA partner or know someone who had such a
childhood/youth. They just learn to cover it up and "act normal".



The bag lady or the guy talking to the post most possibly once were
involved in situations like you are involved with now- and finally
through their own issues, destroyed. You see the result of the typical
CHOICES of a CSA when you see one of these older street people: where
is their family? Where are their children? Where is their partner,
their loved ones, their history, their past?

-WHAT happened?

Yes it inspires compassion often. And yes it is hard to imagine that
person you love ending up like that. I'll bet it was the same for
these street people and their partners as well though.

In the end, the river flows to the sea and we return to our source
down the channel and path we choose and make for ourselves.



The CSA, in modern society, as A PART of society, has a path carved in
stone. They can NEVER feel normal about what happened to them BECAUSE
IT ISN'T NORMAL OR HEALTHY within the rules of the society they are
in, and in part, include themselves in. Maybe that is the crux of much
of the problem. Even if one were to put CSA's in special homes, where
everyone including the staff was just like them, ONE OF THE BIGGEST
PROBLEMS IS THEY ARE THEIR OWN JUDGE AND JURY.

A CSA can not make peace with the war that wages within themselves.
Blame, guilt, shame, rage, anger, hate, love, pleasure, pain... so
much that will never settle. These are the foundations of the symptoms
that most of you experience as PoS's and what brings you to places
like this looking for help, answers or solutions,

-and HOPE.

In the end, like you and I and anyone, a CSA seek comfort; what is
normal and safe for themselves, what their earliest experiences were.
Something to give respite. Drugs, alcohol, addictions, Drama, noise,
thrills, disaster, anything to make the pain and static go away for at
least a little while. Anything to bring them back to the world as they
first began to know it on a regular basis, between the ages of 1 and 7
years old.
If the trauma and abuse was lengthy and deep, between 1 and 13-14
years old, then this is what they seek as comfort for the rest of
their lives.

There is, again, no cure. There never has been and in our lifetimes
possibly never will be, as not only do the CSA's need help, and the
people who stay, but the very societies where they are born, bred,
live in and were created in have something in desperate need of
healing, that is in itself very ill.



Think about that.


----------------------------

If you want something, those of you who need a lifeline, to hold onto
and help yourselves, try and find ANYTHING on

"EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE"

Time-Life (or something similar) has something similar on the subject,
maybe even there is an "idiots guide to emotional intelligence"...???
(*grin* -I sure could have used one!)...
For sure there are a few small entry-level publications out there that
might open the doors to your mind and being about what you're involved
in and what you CAN DO to help yourself to regain your happiness,
peace and integrity. There are also some heavier books on the subject
if you desire.

Those of you who are in LTR's with CSA's, maybe it works in your
situation, or maybe you are more similar to your CSA than you care to
be honest about, or maybe you only know part of their sides, and the
rest they hide for fear of loosing something, as I said above. Also,
if you are lucky, quite possibly your CSA isn't so damaged and maybe
doesn't have a serious emotional disorder and mental illness from the
events, while perhaps for all you know everyone else on here who is
running into far worse issues than you and your partner have ever
encountered.

That might be hope for those of you who come here seeking an outlet.
In the end, that is all this is, really- an outlet. Rage, scream,
type, vent- GET IT OUT!!!!

Talk about it, and I'm sure we'll listen or vent our own feelings and
thoughts ourselves


In there, and in the safety of this group- as safe as you can make it,
is something that might be condusive for your healing.



We can't tell you what will happen, nor how your story will work out.
I'll bet even those closest to you can't tell you what you will do. We
CAN tell you, those of use who have done the research, what the odds
are and what kinds of typical outcomes are with CSA's, and why the
terms co-dependent and enabler exist, and why there are slang terms in
psychology for the various flavors of people who stay involved in
relationships with, say a BPD or Borderline Personality Disorder
suffering CSA. We CAN give you possible resources and some
information, but in the end, the help you get will be the kind you
give yourself, and seek from real professionals and counselors who you
sit down with, in person, week after week, to get some perspective
with and find your own integrity.


Try and read the stuff you find on emotional intelligence, ask the
hard questions about your mate and their abilities, and try and
remember your own dreams and what YOU wanted- the kind of life you
wanted to have and once dreamed of.

I guarantee you only this- a CSA will and can never give you anything
you dream about, unless you are very, very ill. If they suffer
noticeable symptoms to bring you to a place like this, they classify
as "mentally and/or emotionally ill" and even with professional help
for years- maybe decades, their options for recovery are quite
possibly very slim indeed.

Or you probably wouldn't be here.

Those are the facts for them.
For you?

Perhaps when you're done, you'll be done, and ready for the rest of
the world again. You'll know when you know, and until then, this is
what you are choosing to help you learn something only you understand.

I'll bet there is a gift in it though, if you survive intact.
C.S. Lewis said that pain is the greatest teacher of all- it makes us
all that more aware of joy and the precious, priceless, short gift we
have that is
Life.



Again, may you find your own peace in carrying this torch so bravely.
And may your efforts help light up the dark in this night of these
sides of humanity. My heart goes out with you, and my prayers.




I'll be thinking about you over the years.


-JP

Hello Simon:

Your point is very well taken.  I know I am Co-dependent and
contribute to my partner's behavior.  In retrospect, the extent to
which I will go to try and avoid a behavioral explosion is pathetic.
The worst part about a post-situation review is I only made the
situation better for the moment.  And, if I didn't cave into my
partner's demands quickly enough, I got the full explosion AND still
ended up caving in.

It's so confusing to look at your partner during an outburst and love
and hate them at the same time.  To want to leave, or wish they would
yet, stay and stay and stay... never asking them to leave either;
until I have become weary with a somber resolve to my fate.

I am sorry that you find me in one of my "Poor Me" moods.  However, I
do appreciate your reminding me that I AM part of the problem not
part of the solution.  WOW that's heavy, isn't it?  After all of the
complaining I do about my partner, I realize the problem is all
about "US" and, I thought I was being kind and caring!!!

I am happy to hear you have a handle on yourself and are working to
improve your responses.  In reality, the only person we can fix is
our-self anyway.

All the best, Patricia

--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "smoothpebble69"
<simonfrog@...> wrote:
>
> okay yall gonna just get this out here.  Daisy, love that you work
> for some sort of peace, a cure, I mean what is it that one is
working
> towards matters, so partners make sure that you know what you are
> looking for and it will help the process tremendously.
> A few of you know me and the ex-mrs-frog.  You saw us come on here
as
> newbie discovering that life has turned into a madhouse and this
> thing, this atrocity, called CSA was the cause, and now that I know
> what it is I am going to beat it.  Success stories, willie wonka's
> golden ticket, searching for hope of any kind, yeah I was there.
My
> story is not one that you have to go back and research, because it
> was so much like every other story on this group.
> I am writing you all tonight to let you know that most CSA's are
> borderline personality disorder sufferers... really want to know
what
> is going on?  Put down ghosts, allies, and courage and pick up the
> borderline mother... 10:1 it will make much more sense.  If you are
> going to fight a dragon, know what makes it up.  Know its
weaknesses
> and know where it is going to attack you.
> Which is politely telling you that just as a 90+% of CSA victims
are
> borderlines, the same percentage rings true to partners of
Survivors
> being co-dependent.  I know I know, I am not co-dependent, I just
> love so much, there is nothing wrong with loving someone, I loved
> them and look at what they are doing to me...
> look at the math.  You are expecting a change out of another human
> being that you found compatiblity with, odds are you have found
> previous encounters that treated you similarly, and you want
change?
> Change is the only thing...but it must come from within.
> if you continue trying to create chaos for the illusion of having
> control, or to present the illusion that you are there/here to help
> or heal, you are only going to add to the problem.  If you allow,
> accept or inable a behavior, then bitch moan groan about how
horrible
> they are treating you after all that you have done to/for them,
then
> you are feeding the behavior.  if your behavior is as predictable
as
> their behavior, then asking them to change without changing your
own
> self, at least taking a serious look into the matter with some
> qualified professional help is just selfish.
> I hear, and I did my share of whining that I wanted her to go to
> therapy, tried my best to save my marriage, and failed only in
saving
> my marriage, because I wound up saving my own life, and salvaging a
> good friendship with a woman who is a whole lot fucked up in the
head
> from the neighbor and probably a family member that had their way
> with her from the ages of 4-12.
> her therapy would not have mattered so long as my sickness of co-
> dependence needed fed.  You ask for and recieve everything that
> happens to you.  It is true!  Took a really good therapist and much
> literature to figure it out, but if you are not willing to look
> within yourself and make a change, get off of your high horses and
> quit expecting change from them.  My ex and I are very good
friends.
> I do believe if I had gotten a grip sooner, we may have been able
to
> salvage the marriage, but I was so caught up in being a victim and
> defending that I had no part of how fucked up she was.
> co-dependency
> a taboo word here
> finding out more about it saved my life
> had I the courage to face it sooner it may have saved my marriage
> you want help?
> look into it, because your partner's behavior is a reaction to your
> own.
> Sorry it is so matter of fact
> Simon
>

okay yall gonna just get this out here.  Daisy, love that you work
for some sort of peace, a cure, I mean what is it that one is working
towards matters, so partners make sure that you know what you are
looking for and it will help the process tremendously.
A few of you know me and the ex-mrs-frog.  You saw us come on here as
newbie discovering that life has turned into a madhouse and this
thing, this atrocity, called CSA was the cause, and now that I know
what it is I am going to beat it.  Success stories, willie wonka's
golden ticket, searching for hope of any kind, yeah I was there.  My
story is not one that you have to go back and research, because it
was so much like every other story on this group.
I am writing you all tonight to let you know that most CSA's are
borderline personality disorder sufferers... really want to know what
is going on?  Put down ghosts, allies, and courage and pick up the
borderline mother... 10:1 it will make much more sense.  If you are
going to fight a dragon, know what makes it up.  Know its weaknesses
and know where it is going to attack you.
Which is politely telling you that just as a 90+% of CSA victims are
borderlines, the same percentage rings true to partners of Survivors
being co-dependent.  I know I know, I am not co-dependent, I just
love so much, there is nothing wrong with loving someone, I loved
them and look at what they are doing to me...
look at the math.  You are expecting a change out of another human
being that you found compatiblity with, odds are you have found
previous encounters that treated you similarly, and you want change?
Change is the only thing...but it must come from within.
if you continue trying to create chaos for the illusion of having
control, or to present the illusion that you are there/here to help
or heal, you are only going to add to the problem.  If you allow,
accept or inable a behavior, then bitch moan groan about how horrible
they are treating you after all that you have done to/for them, then
you are feeding the behavior.  if your behavior is as predictable as
their behavior, then asking them to change without changing your own
self, at least taking a serious look into the matter with some
qualified professional help is just selfish.
I hear, and I did my share of whining that I wanted her to go to
therapy, tried my best to save my marriage, and failed only in saving
my marriage, because I wound up saving my own life, and salvaging a
good friendship with a woman who is a whole lot fucked up in the head
from the neighbor and probably a family member that had their way
with her from the ages of 4-12.
her therapy would not have mattered so long as my sickness of co-
dependence needed fed.  You ask for and recieve everything that
happens to you.  It is true!  Took a really good therapist and much
literature to figure it out, but if you are not willing to look
within yourself and make a change, get off of your high horses and
quit expecting change from them.  My ex and I are very good friends.
I do believe if I had gotten a grip sooner, we may have been able to
salvage the marriage, but I was so caught up in being a victim and
defending that I had no part of how fucked up she was.
co-dependency
a taboo word here
finding out more about it saved my life
had I the courage to face it sooner it may have saved my marriage
you want help?
look into it, because your partner's behavior is a reaction to your
own.
Sorry it is so matter of fact
Simon

Hello Daniel:

I wanted to let you know that your posts are very helpful and much
appreciated.

Thank you, we're all with you too!
Patricia


--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "danielsherenow"
<ragman21@...> wrote:
>
> One of the good things about this place is that we can share these
> kinds of feelings. There is so much we feel, in trying to love a
CSA
> survivor, that seem selfish, but surely aren't. Because our
partners'
> needs are so great (though they won't admit it), and their demands
so
> stringent (but they deny it), it's all put on us. And since part
> of loving someone is seeing it from their side -- if not taking
their
> side -- it puts you in a tough spot, maybe an impossible one.
> Just before reading all this I happened to be thinking about my
wife,
> a sexual situation, and asked myself for the millionth
> time: Why must it always be on HER terms?
> I think that's at the heart of these last posts, that we love them,
> or are trying to, but it's all about them! So we feel lonely and
> frustrated. And we have a right to!
> I'm often caught between two powerful needs: wanting to take care
of
> my wife, and wanting to take care of myself. As brummiejon was
> describing, there are times when one can't help but wonder why your
> feelings aren't taken into account, just theirs.
> And Daisymae feels guilty about being silent, when she needs to,
and
> when it's the best course of action -- when it's the loving thing
to
> do, really.
> Take care, we're all with you,
>
> Daniel
>
> --- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, daisymae542003
> <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > She may just be taking a time out to sort through what she is
> > feeling. I do this too. Not because I want to cause stress to my
> > partner but rather to avoid my over reactions. I know that it
> > affects him but I'd rather him have to suffer through a couple
> hours
> > of silent treatment than to have me hollering and crying about
> > something that shouldn't be to taken to that extreme. Does she at
> > least talk to you at a later time about what happened? If not,
she
> > might build up some resentment.
> >
> >
> > --- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "brummiejon"
> > <brummiejon@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks.... Something that I have noticed recently is that when
> > > something happens, I say or do the wrong things (I'm still
trying
> > to
> > > work out what these things really are), my partner totally
> > withdraws
> > > from me, perhaps for an hour or so, she said (without going to
any
> > > detail to me) "it's my hang up, not yours"... True, but there
is
> no
> > > awareness that I am in any way affected. She always seems to
come
> > out
> > > of it OK and back to where we started from but seems totally
> > unaware
> > > of how this affects me. If she thinks I'm trying to analyse any
> > > situation she says I'm over analysing and to "lighten up".
> > Sometimes I
> > > just don't know what to do, she can change her mind about
things
> at
> > > the drop of a hat but then makes light of me when I'm trying to
> > work
> > > out what is really going on. I just don't know where I stand
and
> > if I
> > > say anything she says "we love each other, thats all that
> matters".
> > > There is no acknowledgement that my feelings may have been hurt
or
> > > that her actions have any effect on me.
> > >
> > > I know this is going to be hard because she is a long way from
> even
> > > wanting to explore her own feelings about this. Any advice, or
> > > suggestions of further reading to help me understand how to
deal
> > with
> > > my own feelings would be most appreciated.
> > >
> > > BJ
> > >
> >
>

One of the good things about this place is that we can share these
kinds of feelings. There is so much we feel, in trying to love a CSA
survivor, that seem selfish, but surely aren't. Because our partners'
needs are so great (though they won't admit it), and their demands so
stringent (but they deny it), it's all put on us. And since part
of loving someone is seeing it from their side -- if not taking their
side -- it puts you in a tough spot, maybe an impossible one.
Just before reading all this I happened to be thinking about my wife,
a sexual situation, and asked myself for the millionth
time: Why must it always be on HER terms?
I think that's at the heart of these last posts, that we love them,
or are trying to, but it's all about them! So we feel lonely and
frustrated. And we have a right to!
I'm often caught between two powerful needs: wanting to take care of
my wife, and wanting to take care of myself. As brummiejon was
describing, there are times when one can't help but wonder why your
feelings aren't taken into account, just theirs.
And Daisymae feels guilty about being silent, when she needs to, and
when it's the best course of action -- when it's the loving thing to
do, really.
Take care, we're all with you,

Daniel

--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, daisymae542003
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> She may just be taking a time out to sort through what she is
> feeling. I do this too. Not because I want to cause stress to my
> partner but rather to avoid my over reactions. I know that it
> affects him but I'd rather him have to suffer through a couple
hours
> of silent treatment than to have me hollering and crying about
> something that shouldn't be to taken to that extreme. Does she at
> least talk to you at a later time about what happened? If not, she
> might build up some resentment.
>
>
> --- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "brummiejon"
> <brummiejon@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks.... Something that I have noticed recently is that when
> > something happens, I say or do the wrong things (I'm still trying
> to
> > work out what these things really are), my partner totally
> withdraws
> > from me, perhaps for an hour or so, she said (without going to any
> > detail to me) "it's my hang up, not yours"... True, but there is
no
> > awareness that I am in any way affected. She always seems to come
> out
> > of it OK and back to where we started from but seems totally
> unaware
> > of how this affects me. If she thinks I'm trying to analyse any
> > situation she says I'm over analysing and to "lighten up".
> Sometimes I
> > just don't know what to do, she can change her mind about things
at
> > the drop of a hat but then makes light of me when I'm trying to
> work
> > out what is really going on. I just don't know where I stand and
> if I
> > say anything she says "we love each other, thats all that
matters".
> > There is no acknowledgement that my feelings may have been hurt or
> > that her actions have any effect on me.
> >
> > I know this is going to be hard because she is a long way from
even
> > wanting to explore her own feelings about this. Any advice, or
> > suggestions of further reading to help me understand how to deal
> with
> > my own feelings would be most appreciated.
> >
> > BJ
> >
>

She may just be taking a time out to sort through what she is
feeling. I do this too. Not because I want to cause stress to my
partner but rather to avoid my over reactions. I know that it
affects him but I'd rather him have to suffer through a couple hours
of silent treatment than to have me hollering and crying about
something that shouldn't be to taken to that extreme. Does she at
least talk to you at a later time about what happened? If not, she
might build up some resentment.


--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "brummiejon"
<brummiejon@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks.... Something that I have noticed recently is that when
> something happens, I say or do the wrong things (I'm still trying
to
> work out what these things really are), my partner totally
withdraws
> from me, perhaps for an hour or so, she said (without going to any
> detail to me) "it's my hang up, not yours"... True, but there is no
> awareness that I am in any way affected. She always seems to come
out
> of it OK and back to where we started from but seems totally
unaware
> of how this affects me. If she thinks I'm trying to analyse any
> situation she says I'm over analysing and to "lighten up".
Sometimes I
> just don't know what to do, she can change her mind about things at
> the drop of a hat but then makes light of me when I'm trying to
work
> out what is really going on. I just don't know where I stand and
if I
> say anything she says "we love each other, thats all that matters".
> There is no acknowledgement that my feelings may have been hurt or
> that her actions have any effect on me.
>
> I know this is going to be hard because she is a long way from even
> wanting to explore her own feelings about this. Any advice, or
> suggestions of further reading to help me understand how to deal
with
> my own feelings would be most appreciated.
>
> BJ
>

Thanks.... Something that I have noticed recently is that when
something happens, I say or do the wrong things (I'm still trying to
work out what these things really are), my partner totally withdraws
from me, perhaps for an hour or so, she said (without going to any
detail to me) "it's my hang up, not yours"... True, but there is no
awareness that I am in any way affected. She always seems to come out
of it OK and back to where we started from but seems totally unaware
of how this affects me. If she thinks I'm trying to analyse any
situation she says I'm over analysing and to "lighten up". Sometimes I
just don't know what to do, she can change her mind about things at
the drop of a hat but then makes light of me when I'm trying to work
out what is really going on. I just don't know where I stand and if I
say anything she says "we love each other, thats all that matters".
There is no acknowledgement that my feelings may have been hurt or
that her actions have any effect on me.

I know this is going to be hard because she is a long way from even
wanting to explore her own feelings about this. Any advice, or
suggestions of further reading to help me understand how to deal with
my own feelings would be most appreciated.

BJ

Welcome to the group JP. You're right, this is not going to be easy. In
fact this may be the hardest thing you will ever do. But love is never
a wasted pursuit. I wish you the best!

--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "brummiejon"
<brummiejon@...> wrote:
>
> Hi
> I'm glad to bave found this group, I have recently fallen in love with
> someone who has been abused. I can't choose who I fall in love with
> and I can already see that this is not going to be easy. I'm just glad
> that I have somewhere to go.
> *JP*
>

Hi
I'm glad to bave found this group, I have recently fallen in love with
someone who has been abused. I can't choose who I fall in love with
and I can already see that this is not going to be easy. I'm just glad
that I have somewhere to go.
*JP*