Thank you to everyone who has responded. I am taking all of this to
heart and appreciate the support and encouragement.

I think that right now I am somewhere between hope and hopeless,
leaning more toward the hopeless. I say that because he has been in
therapy since May and I have seen barely any change in him. He is
very set that he has no energy to put into any type of couples work
because he says he has no desire and also he can barely do what he
needs to do for himself let alone add our relationship into the mix.
He has no interest in an intimate relationship which includes no
touching. (It's been hard to watch him hug our sons when he comes
home or leaves to go back to his job. Mixed emotions....I am glad
that he loves our kids, but yet hard to wrap my heart around why I
get nothing when I didn't do anything wrong.)

He came home last weekend for the first time in six weeks. (There
was no change in him as far as I could tell.)I can honestly say that
after he left on Tuesday I realized that being without him for six
weeks was one of the best gifts I have received from all of this
because I am finally beginning to find myself again and that feels
good. Like I am at least moving forward. Being away from
the "craziness" that we accept as normal is helping me to see things
more clearly.

I realize that this process could take years and while I am not
ready to give up yet, I do know that working on myself is the only
thing that I can do. Working through the fear of the unknown future.
I just never thought that I would find myself in this position....
Lorrie



--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa"
<liselle2000@...> wrote:
>
> WOW!!!!!
>
> I rarely respond to a message, but JPotters response to you has
made
> me feel the need.
>
>
> Lorrie,  every situation is different, every survivor and partner
> brings different perspectives and strengths to the relationship.
>
> The fact that your husband/partner/wife is a survivor does not
mean
> that things can not be worked out.  That is such a hopeless
> attitude.  I am guessing that JPotter makes this claim based on
his
> own experience, which most definitely is not mine.
>
> "IF IT'S BAD ENOUGH TO WARRANT THEIR PARNERS DESPERATION TO BE ON
A
> SITE LIKE THIS then these partners of ours, these CSA's belong to
> that group that, tragically....-are not going to recover."
>
> My presence on this board does not mean, as JPotter suggests, that
I
> am desperate or that my wife belongs to a group that is not going
to
> recover.  I am okay.  She gets a bit better every week.  I attend
> Adult Children of Alcoholics meetings for support since I have
been
> unable to find a single meeting in my area that specifically
> addresses Partners of Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse.  Its not
> always easy, but it is certainly better than it was a few months
> ago.  I have learned to breathe.  I refuse to walk on eggshells
> anymore, although I am aware of how I address issues or react in a
> way that respects her experience and feelings.  I am more
centered.
>
> We go to couples therapy to work on communicating in a productive
way
> and to address issues in a place that feels safe.  Not always
easy,
> as I said, but its working.  A VA study I had read online
suggested
> couples therapy increases the odds of a relationship surviving
> while a person with PTSD works towards healing. We started
sessions
> this summer after a suicide incident occurred, and it has gotten
> incredibly better.  I don't feel left out of her process, although
I
> do not really participate directly.
>
> JPotter suggests,
> "write them OUT of the picture. Because the very part that keeps
them
> IN the picture in us is what helps them belong TO THAT GROUP THAT
> ISN'T GOING TO RECOVER. If we love these partners of ours, these
> people who we have seen some of the beauty and light and joy and
> wonderfulness in these human beings that we love sooooo
much.....we
> have to TRULY be willing to finally listen to advice like none
> other...
> LET THEM GO."
>
> I don't buy that.  That would makes each of us one more person,
one
> more reason to not trust.  If the situation is such that you are
in
> danger or in such pain, that to stay is detrimental to yourself,
then
> of course you should leave, but not all of us are so co-dependent
> that we can not work on our own issues and learn to care for
> ourselves as well.
>
> JPotter says,
> "Truthfully the best advice anyone has ever given me
> was to steel myself for the truth that if the person I was with
> hadn't recovered and dealt with themeselves and their live by the
> time I knew them, and in the relationship with therapy and
counseling
> and doing that work, that it wasn't going to ever happen. Not
ever."
>
> I am truly sorry that his relationship did not work, but as I said
> earlier, we are not all the same.  My wife is not in the same
place
> she was in June, and neither am I.  No one is the same.  We work
on
> her healing together in the ways that we can, and seperately we
work
> on our own issues.  She could not and would not have dealt with
any
> of this without my support.  Those are her words.  In the past,
she
> was too comfortable with all her issues boxed up and
> compartmentalized.  She had never had a REAL feeling
relationship.
> As her therapist said, along with the real good feelings, ie.
love,
> unfortunately she has to deal with the bad feelings.  You can not
> pick and choose which emotions to feel.  Its all or nothing.  I
> realize that this was a choice she made in order to be with me.
I'm
> glad to be here for her and with her as she heals.
>
> IT IS NOT EASY, but seeing her steps forward, and appreciating
what
> she is dealing with for the first time in her life, because of her
> desire for a REAL and intimate relationship with me, makes it
> worthwhile.
>
> Its not always tragic and hopeless.  I have seen others write on
the
> board with hopeful and good stories.  I am sure that as life gets
> easier they post less and less because the have less of a need for
> support.  Do not assume your presence on this board means it is
> hopeless.  It means you are seeking help in getting through this.
We
> all are.  If we thought it was hopeless we would not look for help.
>
> Take gentle care of yourself,
> Lisa
>

WOW!!!!!

I rarely respond to a message, but JPotters response to you has made
me feel the need.


Lorrie,  every situation is different, every survivor and partner
brings different perspectives and strengths to the relationship.

The fact that your husband/partner/wife is a survivor does not mean
that things can not be worked out.  That is such a hopeless
attitude.  I am guessing that JPotter makes this claim based on his
own experience, which most definitely is not mine.

"IF IT'S BAD ENOUGH TO WARRANT THEIR PARNERS DESPERATION TO BE ON A
SITE LIKE THIS then these partners of ours, these CSA's belong to
that group that, tragically....-are not going to recover."

My presence on this board does not mean, as JPotter suggests, that I
am desperate or that my wife belongs to a group that is not going to
recover.  I am okay.  She gets a bit better every week.  I attend
Adult Children of Alcoholics meetings for support since I have been
unable to find a single meeting in my area that specifically
addresses Partners of Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse.  Its not
always easy, but it is certainly better than it was a few months
ago.  I have learned to breathe.  I refuse to walk on eggshells
anymore, although I am aware of how I address issues or react in a
way that respects her experience and feelings.  I am more centered.

We go to couples therapy to work on communicating in a productive way
and to address issues in a place that feels safe.  Not always easy,
as I said, but its working.  A VA study I had read online suggested
couples therapy increases the odds of a relationship surviving
while a person with PTSD works towards healing. We started sessions
this summer after a suicide incident occurred, and it has gotten
incredibly better.  I don't feel left out of her process, although I
do not really participate directly.

JPotter suggests,
"write them OUT of the picture. Because the very part that keeps them
IN the picture in us is what helps them belong TO THAT GROUP THAT
ISN'T GOING TO RECOVER. If we love these partners of ours, these
people who we have seen some of the beauty and light and joy and
wonderfulness in these human beings that we love sooooo much.....we
have to TRULY be willing to finally listen to advice like none
other...
LET THEM GO."

I don't buy that.  That would makes each of us one more person, one
more reason to not trust.  If the situation is such that you are in
danger or in such pain, that to stay is detrimental to yourself, then
of course you should leave, but not all of us are so co-dependent
that we can not work on our own issues and learn to care for
ourselves as well.

JPotter says,
"Truthfully the best advice anyone has ever given me
was to steel myself for the truth that if the person I was with
hadn't recovered and dealt with themeselves and their live by the
time I knew them, and in the relationship with therapy and counseling
and doing that work, that it wasn't going to ever happen. Not ever."

I am truly sorry that his relationship did not work, but as I said
earlier, we are not all the same.  My wife is not in the same place
she was in June, and neither am I.  No one is the same.  We work on
her healing together in the ways that we can, and seperately we work
on our own issues.  She could not and would not have dealt with any
of this without my support.  Those are her words.  In the past, she
was too comfortable with all her issues boxed up and
compartmentalized.  She had never had a REAL feeling relationship.
As her therapist said, along with the real good feelings, ie. love,
unfortunately she has to deal with the bad feelings.  You can not
pick and choose which emotions to feel.  Its all or nothing.  I
realize that this was a choice she made in order to be with me. I'm
glad to be here for her and with her as she heals.

IT IS NOT EASY, but seeing her steps forward, and appreciating what
she is dealing with for the first time in her life, because of her
desire for a REAL and intimate relationship with me, makes it
worthwhile.

Its not always tragic and hopeless.  I have seen others write on the
board with hopeful and good stories.  I am sure that as life gets
easier they post less and less because the have less of a need for
support.  Do not assume your presence on this board means it is
hopeless.  It means you are seeking help in getting through this. We
all are.  If we thought it was hopeless we would not look for help.

Take gentle care of yourself,
Lisa

Hi Lorrie.

   Usually, by the time things get bad enough that us non-survivors realize
   we're in over our heads, the kind of people who we are involved with are
   the kind that this can't be worked out with.

   Meaning that

   Fixing it isn't up to us, the partners.

   In a normal relationship what we know how to do or could do to help
   deal with the problems would work.

   It doesn't work with CSA's.

   Truthfully the best advice anyone has ever given me was to steel myself
   for the truth that if the person I was with hadn't recovered and dealt with
   themeselves and their live by the time I knew them, and in the relationship
   with therapy and counseling and doing that work, that it wasn't going to
   ever happen.

   Not ever.

   And it certainly wasn't going to happen with my help or rescue attempts.

   I refused to give up hope and I refused and refused and refused.
   I didn't take their advice. They are a professional researcher and PhD in the
   subject.

   After it ended I took some of their advice and looked at myself pretty
intensly
   and what I thought "love" was vs. needs and company and leaning on someone
   else for these things (co-depenancy).
   I found love in me -and my love, after the rage and anger, was still there for
her.

   Now when I visit with her, I see clearly the rediculous and impossible
childish
   dreams I had. Without any of my own needs or agendas clouding my vision
   I can see her -how she is, her choices, behaviors, values, problems- all in a
   FAR more realistic light.

   this is who she is.
   A survivor
   Barely

   Barely able to maintain except with people who don't know any better and
   can't tell or see it in her.

   Help is everywhere but that's not what she wants or is willing to do.
   It's all talk. a bullshit front sooo well formed she believes it even herself-
that
   she wants to heal.

   Her healing steps are sooo small that really all they are is tiny chips off of
the
   sabotage and damage steps she makes that are huge. The healing steps she
   makes are only there to make her surface denial stay in place and help her
feel
   better about herself.

   That's her.
   the one you have known might be different


   One thing that ALL survivors have in common though is this:


   IF IT'S BAD ENOUGH TO WARRANT THEIR PARNERS DESPERATION TO
   BE ON A SITE LIKE THIS then these partners of ours, these CSA's belong to
   that group that, tragically....

   -are not going to recover.








   There is only one tiny hope in the world for those of us on here
   who are hurting, afraid and scared.

   FACE YOU.

   Face it face it face it face it face it.
   Loose ALL the dreams,all the illusions, all the romance, all the hopes, all
the FEAR.

   Write them OUT of the picture.
   Because the very part that keeps them IN the picture in us is what helps them
belong

   TO THAT GROUP THAT ISN'T GOING TO RECOVER.



   If we love these partners of ours, these people who we have seen some of the
   beauty and light and joy and wonderfulness in

   these human beings that we love sooooo much.....

   we have to TRULY be willing to finally listen to advice like none other


   LET THEM GO.


   It is the only chance we have for anything- even ourselves.
   Because we are not in charge of anyone or anything except ourselves.

   and our partners- the one thing they need to see most
   is to be called on this- and shown an example of it.

   that we ALL are responsible for ourselves
   and our emotions
   and our behaviors
   and our responses
   and our actions
   and how we take care of ourselves




   If WE can do the most scary thing in the world,
   Maybe THEY can know it can be done.

   Let's show them how.
   by learning to love ouselves
   with or without them.

   and being strong even while
   we have breaking hearts.


   *big hug*

   -Jason


ljgerman62 <lorriejp62@...> wrote:
           It did seem like walking on egg shells and still does to some degree
when he comes home to visit. My sons are wonderful and to my
husband's credit, his relationship with them hasn't changed as
drastically. (My husband was traveling a lot before he moved anyway,
so we are kinda used to him being gone.)

I am seeing a counselor myself since this all happened and trying to
keep our new routine with my kids as disruptive as possible for
them.

I live in Iowa and have contacted several therapists offices looking
for other women in the same boat that are either in a support group
or looking to form one. It's been a end road, thus far. I am
thinking of trying out an Alanon type group at a church next week.

We were married for nine years and had 2 babies before he was forced
to tell me what happened to him. (I always knew his family was
quirky, but just shrugged it off. Then he had a major fight with his
sister that I was listening to and I asked him what really happened
in his home growing up and he told me.) I knew the moment he told me
that heartache and trouble would follow until he decided to wrestle
and deal with this. And so far I have been correct. I just didn't
realize that the possibility of us not being able to survive this
was so great. So far I can't say that I remember reading any stories
of marriages that have survived on here.

After these past months of separation and counseling and lots of
reading, I am finally starting to see through some of this and how
much I have lost myself. It's just a painful, painful situation. We
have dealt with a lot over the years and I thought we were getting
better and closer. At least from my perspective. More hopes and
dreams shattered....but God continues walk with me each day.

Lorrie

--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, Christopher
Range <chrisrange@...> wrote:
>
> ljgerman62 wrote:
>
> >My life "blew up" back in Feb. and my husband of 24 years is
working at a job 1000 miles away from me and our 3 teenage sons. He
started therapy back in May for being ually abuse by his father
for several years. Needless to say, that while the last 24 years
have had their share of problems, I sure didn't see this coming. As
you all know, this is devastating.
> >
> What was your(and your sons') reaction to the news? I know you
said it
> was devastating but, did a feeling of suddenly 'walking on
eggshells'
> emerge, in respect to how you react towards your husband?
>
> >I have been reading this board for several weeks now. Going back
and reading past posts. I can't begin to tell you how much comfort
it has been to read about others who are going through the same kind
of hell. I have been unable to find any other wives in my area to
commiserate with and this has really played a vital part in helping
on my journey.
> >
> What is the area you live in?
>
> >Thank you for being brave enough to share your lives.
> >
> >L
> >
> Well, Don't forget yourself. You shared a little and, that
deserves
> thanks, too. :-)
>
> Christopher
>






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Lorrie-

I can relate to this. I just found out a few months ago that my wife
of 15 years was abused. It explained much of her bad behavior, and I
acutally felt relief at finally having a reason for all the
symptoms. I now live with going to therapy, medication, al-anon,
fallout affecting the kids, all the typicals. It does turn your
world upside down. I long for a sane and rational world, and am lost
in the worst way, but you are right, there is a higher power at work
with us. I can't help but feel there is a reason for all things,
more so than before. I'm still trying to figure it out, probably
won't, for some time, maybe not ever. Part of my lesson seems like
letting go, but I'll wait to see if the lesson is how to hang on.
One good thing is I am understanding my capacity to love is larger
than I knew. Somehow, by accepting I am not in control, and that I
can't fix this, my eyes now look forward instead of down, and people
are beautiful again, not something to hide from. Just my experience.
Please continue to look for yourself. I look everyday, and find some
good things once in a while. Love still exists regardless of where
we are in relation to each other, regardless of the past.
Nick

--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "ljgerman62"
<lorriejp62@...> wrote:
>
> It did seem like walking on egg shells and still does to some
degree
> when he comes home to visit. My sons are wonderful and to my
> husband's credit, his relationship with them hasn't changed as
> drastically. (My husband was traveling a lot before he moved
anyway,
> so we are kinda used to him being gone.)
>
> I am seeing a counselor myself since this all happened and trying
to
> keep our new routine with my kids as disruptive as possible for
> them.
>
> I live in Iowa and have contacted several therapists offices
looking
> for other women in the same boat that are either in a support
group
> or looking to form one. It's been a      end road, thus far. I am
> thinking of trying out an Alanon type group at a church next week.
>
> We were married for nine years and had 2 babies before he was
forced
> to tell me what happened to him. (I always knew his family was
> quirky, but just shrugged it off. Then he had a major fight with
his
> sister that I was listening to and I asked him what really
happened
> in his home growing up and he told me.) I knew the moment he told
me
> that heartache and trouble would follow until he decided to
wrestle
> and deal with this. And so far I have been correct. I just didn't
> realize that the possibility of us not being able to survive this
> was so great. So far I can't say that I remember reading any
stories
> of marriages that have survived on here.
>
> After these past months of separation and counseling and lots of
> reading, I am finally starting to see through some of this and how
> much I have lost myself. It's just a painful, painful situation.
We
> have dealt with a lot over the years and I thought we were getting
> better and closer. At least from my perspective. More hopes and
> dreams shattered....but God continues walk with me each day.
>
> Lorrie
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, Christopher
> Range <chrisrange@> wrote:
> >
> > ljgerman62 wrote:
> >
> > >My life "blew up" back in Feb. and my husband of 24 years is
> working at a job 1000 miles away from me and our 3 teenage sons.
He
> started therapy back in May for being    ually abuse by his father
> for several years.  Needless to say, that while the last 24 years
> have had their share of problems, I sure didn't see this coming.
As
> you all know, this is devastating.
> > >
> > What was your(and your sons') reaction to the news?  I know you
> said it
> > was devastating but, did a feeling of suddenly 'walking on
> eggshells'
> > emerge, in respect to how you react towards your husband?
> >
> > >I have been reading this board for several weeks now.  Going
back
> and reading past posts.  I can't begin to tell you how much
comfort
> it has been to read about others who are going through the same
kind
> of hell.  I have been unable to find any other wives in my area to
> commiserate with and this has really played a vital part in
helping
> on my journey.
> > >
> > What is the area you live in?
> >
> > >Thank you for being brave enough to share your lives.
> > >
> > >L
> > >
> > Well, Don't forget yourself.  You shared a little and, that
> deserves
> > thanks, too. :-)
> >
> > Christopher
> >
>

It did seem like walking on egg shells and still does to some degree
when he comes home to visit. My sons are wonderful and to my
husband's credit, his relationship with them hasn't changed as
drastically. (My husband was traveling a lot before he moved anyway,
so we are kinda used to him being gone.)

I am seeing a counselor myself since this all happened and trying to
keep our new routine with my kids as disruptive as possible for
them.

I live in Iowa and have contacted several therapists offices looking
for other women in the same boat that are either in a support group
or looking to form one. It's been a      end road, thus far. I am
thinking of trying out an Alanon type group at a church next week.

We were married for nine years and had 2 babies before he was forced
to tell me what happened to him. (I always knew his family was
quirky, but just shrugged it off. Then he had a major fight with his
sister that I was listening to and I asked him what really happened
in his home growing up and he told me.) I knew the moment he told me
that heartache and trouble would follow until he decided to wrestle
and deal with this. And so far I have been correct. I just didn't
realize that the possibility of us not being able to survive this
was so great. So far I can't say that I remember reading any stories
of marriages that have survived on here.

After these past months of separation and counseling and lots of
reading, I am finally starting to see through some of this and how
much I have lost myself. It's just a painful, painful situation. We
have dealt with a lot over the years and I thought we were getting
better and closer. At least from my perspective. More hopes and
dreams shattered....but God continues walk with me each day.

Lorrie






--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, Christopher
Range <chrisrange@...> wrote:
>
> ljgerman62 wrote:
>
> >My life "blew up" back in Feb. and my husband of 24 years is
working at a job 1000 miles away from me and our 3 teenage sons.  He
started therapy back in May for being    ually abuse by his father
for several years.  Needless to say, that while the last 24 years
have had their share of problems, I sure didn't see this coming.  As
you all know, this is devastating.
> >
> What was your(and your sons') reaction to the news?  I know you
said it
> was devastating but, did a feeling of suddenly 'walking on
eggshells'
> emerge, in respect to how you react towards your husband?
>
> >I have been reading this board for several weeks now.  Going back
and reading past posts.  I can't begin to tell you how much comfort
it has been to read about others who are going through the same kind
of hell.  I have been unable to find any other wives in my area to
commiserate with and this has really played a vital part in helping
on my journey.
> >
> What is the area you live in?
>
> >Thank you for being brave enough to share your lives.
> >
> >L
> >
> Well, Don't forget yourself.  You shared a little and, that
deserves
> thanks, too. :-)
>
> Christopher
>

ljgerman62 wrote:

>My life "blew up" back in Feb. and my husband of 24 years is working at a job
1000 miles away from me and our 3 teenage sons.  He started therapy back in May
for being sexually abuse by his father for several years.  Needless to say, that
while the last 24 years have had their share of problems, I sure didn't see this
coming.  As you all know, this is devastating.
>
What was your(and your sons') reaction to the news?  I know you said it
was devastating but, did a feeling of suddenly 'walking on eggshells'
emerge, in respect to how you react towards your husband?

>I have been reading this board for several weeks now.  Going back and reading
past posts.  I can't begin to tell you how much comfort it has been to read
about others who are going through the same kind of hell.  I have been unable to
find any other wives in my area to commiserate with and this has really played a
vital part in helping on my journey.
>
What is the area you live in?

>Thank you for being brave enough to share your lives.
>
>L
>
Well, Don't forget yourself.  You shared a little and, that deserves
thanks, too. :-)

Christopher

espiritupoeta wrote:

>I am in love with a young woman who is, I found out, an incest survivor.  I had
my suspicions early on but allowed it to emerge organically (with a push from me
every now and again).
>
Ok

>When she finally broached the subject, it was something of a surprise still,
which threw me for a loop. But she is seeking help, she is growing.  I broke up
with her last year around this time knowing that she couldn't give me what I
wanted in a relationship but maintained a friendship, so called, in the hopes
that some sort of miracle would occur; the only person I was fooling was myself.
>
>
Hmmmm.....

>I have grown tremendously in this relationship, in compassion and
understanding, in tolerance and love, true love, unconditional love, for the
first time in my life.  There is no need in me to receive love back in order to
love her with all my heart.  Which is why I now have to give her the freedom to
explore herself without me, for me to move on and this is the reason I am
writing...to let go of the idea that there might be something for us in the
future.
>
>
I am confused?  Did you get back together with her?

>Is it possible, I'm sure, anything is possible but for what I want, to be able
to hold her without her hatred or to kiss her without resentment, I don't know
that will ever be truely possible.
>
>
Hmmm.......

>I have asked her, tearfully (on both sides) to allow for a space of time to
elapse so that I can work on my spiritual condition without influence or
interruption.  It begins with six months of silence from her; no emails or phone
calls or visits or letters (barring anything horrible or an emergency, in which
case I have asked her to use her best judgement).
>
Ok

>I am scared of losing something that I never had to begin with and don't really
understand it except that maybe it's the ID spoken about...the ego...the I that
believes or manifests what it believes should be.
>
>
Ok

>This is a letter to the night but if there is an identification or suggestions
I am open to hearing them.  Thank you for listening (or reading) assuming anyone
does or is or will.
>
Ok

Christopher

espiritupoeta wrote:

> I have grown tremendously in this relationship, in compassion and
> understanding, in tolerance and love, true love, unconditional love,
> for the first time in my life. There is no need in me to receive
> love back in order to love her with all my heart. Which is why I now
> have to give her the freedom to explore herself without me, for me
> to move on and this is the reason I am writing...to let go of the
> idea that there might be something for us in the future.

Perhaps this was the reason you fell in love with her in the first place. To
learn this lesson.
Because it seems that we humans don't learn lessons the easy way. A teacher of
mine once said that
God will first gently whisper in your ear. And if you don't listen, God gets a
little more blunt.
But by the fifteenth time, you may get smacked upside the head by a metaphorical
2x4.

It seems hard for many to learn to love unconditionally when you're in a
relationship that makes
them feel as if all their needs are being met by their partner because loving
unconditionally means,
as you have learned, having no need in you to receive anything back in order to
love someone with
all your heart. And yet, because of how our society operates, we seem to expect
our partner to be
able to "make us happy". And we put conditions on our partner that we hope will
guarantee that we're
made happy in the relationship. It seems that it takes a crisis situation in
order to get us to
truly understand what unconditional love means.

Maybe that was the point of your relationship. Maybe now that you know that
lesson, when you fall in
love again (and you will, even if you continue to love her with all your heart),
you don't have to
manifest these crises to love unconditionally.

Love and Light,
Shelly


--
The Purple Hat Project: http://rainbowsendpress.com/php/

Exposed: Unmasking the Agenda of the Radical Religious Right: Dismantling the
Constitution of the
United States of America:
http://rainbowsendpress.com/exposed/

"If you refuse an active role in stopping injustice, you accept an
active role in perpetuating it."

"There is no nation, by God exempted, lay down your weapons and Love
your neighbor as yourself." --
      Indigo Girls, "Our Deliverance"

"Our brave young men are dying....Which of them might have written a
poem? Which of them might have cured cancer? Which of them might have
played in a World Series or given us the gift of laughter from the
stage or helped build a bridge or a university? Which of them would
have taught a child to read? It is our responsibility to let these
men live....It is indecent if they die because of the empty vanity of
their country.

Do you suppose that ten years from now we will all look back and
wonder how the American people ever went so far with something so
terrible?" --Robert F. Kennedy, 1968

My life "blew up" back in Feb. and my husband of 24 years is working
at a job 1000 miles away from me and our 3 teenage sons. He started
therapy back in May for being sexually abuse by his father for several
years. Needless to say, that while the last 24 years have had their
share of problems, I sure didn't see this coming. As you all know,
this is devastating.


I have been reading this board for several weeks now. Going back and
reading past posts. I can't begin to tell you how much comfort it has
been to read about others who are going through the same kind of hell.
I have been unable to find any other wives in my area to commiserate
with and this has really played a vital part in helping on my journey.

Thank you for being brave enough to share your lives.

L

I am in love with a young woman who is, I found out, an incest
survivor. I had my suspicions early on but allowed it to emerge
organically (with a push from me every now and again).

When she finally broached the subject, it was something of a
surprise still, which threw me for a loop. But she is seeking help,
she is growing. I broke up with her last year around this time
knowing that she couldn't give me what I wanted in a relationship
but maintained a friendship, so called, in the hopes that some sort
of miracle would occur; the only person I was fooling was myself.

I have grown tremendously in this relationship, in compassion and
understanding, in tolerance and love, true love, unconditional love,
for the first time in my life. There is no need in me to receive
love back in order to love her with all my heart. Which is why I now
have to give her the freedom to explore herself without me, for me
to move on and this is the reason I am writing...to let go of the
idea that there might be something for us in the future.

Is it possible, I'm sure, anything is possible but for what I want,
to be able to hold her without her hatred or to kiss her without
resentment, I don't know that will ever be truely possible.

I have asked her, tearfully (on both sides) to allow for a space of
time to elapse so that I can work on my spiritual condition without
influence or interruption. It begins with six months of silence from
her; no emails or phone calls or visits or letters (barring anything
horrible or an emergency, in which case I have asked her to use her
best judgement).

I am scared of losing something that I never had to begin with and
don't really understand it except that maybe it's the ID spoken
about...the ego...the I that believes or manifests what it believes
should be.

This is a letter to the night but if there is an identification or
suggestions I am open to hearing them. Thank you for listening (or
reading) assuming anyone does or is or will.

Now here's one...
>   Would we return to our CSA's ever again if they could give us
what we want and need?
>
>   What is trust????



I gave Mrs Frog a piece of gold.  I told her that if she never lied
to me again, I would trust her 100%, wipe the slate clean from the
lies of the past and start over.  I have asked her a few very
painful questions and she has given me honest answers.
I also sent her a 23 page letter, my last words to explain how
gaining knowledge of CSA and Codependency, along with a whole lot
about God, communication, and letting go of anger, guilt, and
jealousy, has helped me see that I am a better person through all
that has happened.  I told her that I believe that if she wanted to
try to make it work, I would be willing to give it a try.  Not
begging her to come back, not asking her to beg me to take her back,
just telling her if she wants to stop what she is doing and give it
a try, I am willing to try and I have newfound knowledge about what
went wrong and how to fix it.  Either way, with her or without her,
I am coming out of this a better person.
Simon

Anger is very important- especially when it's righteous.

   We deserve what we know how to ask for.
   As painful as that is. The moment someone crosses those lines and boundaries,
that's when you know now what is coming.

   Remember, who makes these people so messed up?
   That is where the anger really ought to start.

   NO excuses for it, but it's still where it ought to start, logically.
   It is still not letting the CSA's off the hook for their often horrible
behavioral choices.

   Many of them are the paradigm of horrible people. That's a choice.
   They are responsible for that, no matter what.
   They treat you like shit? Walk away. They're shit. The gift they are giving
you
   is one bathed in pain and horror.

   You can shoot yourself in the foot and learn that guns shoot things that hurt
   and it will be a lot easier than dealing with a CSA.

   They hurt people to show that they are messed up inside.
   And then they feel guilty about it and ashamed
   and so they do it again.

   because they are crazy, most of them.
   anyone who pretends that what they do they are not accountable for...
   well we're just as crazy if we go along with it!!!!
   .

   That anger is very, very important.
   It's just deserved.

   But then what line got crossed in us when we first new that we are REALLY
angry about? When we FIRST KNEW and FOUND OUT that these people we are with were
NOT normal, and that everything we DID know did NOT work no matter HOW hard we
tried?

   Who stayed and kept trying?

   And there is MY answer for my own healing and recovery.

   It's not my fault it didn't work.
   And ironically not really hers either. She is not her own person like I am.
What I did would have helped a non PoS-CSA relationship...

   Seeing my ex in the curve-setting paradigm of an abusive horrible hellacious
relationship with a truely insane human being is validation perfecto.

   Now SHE gets to go through what I WENT through with HER.

   It's all the wheel of healing.
   Ironically this might help HER heal herself finally-
   just like it helped me.

   Now here's one...
   Would we return to our CSA's ever again if they could give us what we want and
need?

   What is trust????

smoothpebble69 <simonfrog@...> wrote:
           You are so right, as a partner, you have this belief that love
conquers all and that if you just believe and if you are just strong
enough to show them that you are different from everyone else who has
let them down, then maybe then, they may know how much love is worth
and they maybe just maybe might have the courage to try to believe in
love, and the whole time you are lost in some disney fucking fairie
land, with your birds and butterflies, they are looking at you like
you are stupid, and they know that there is no way they could ever
explain their world to you because their world is so hideous that
they won't even look at it themselves. But I love you honey, come
back we can get help. Fucking wimp, can't even deal with his own
life, how could he help her with her problems. It is best for him if
she just does what ever it takes to get him to go away and find
someone else that might believe in that disney birds and butterfly
shit.
It is a whole different world. Even if we could see it and
understand it, they don't want to. This is life to them, what they
have given you is the world they want to live in and don't expect to
ever see them say they are sincerely sorry. Life was unkind to them,
you love them, you want to understand, here just try to eat this much
shit, and then tell me that you love me!!!
Don't give up on love, but....
Fuck the whole diseased world of CSA
Simon

--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, J Potter
<brahmadomtao@...> wrote:
>
> The guilt and shame of feeling pleasure from a sexual response in
incest is something that never goes away from what I see and
understand. Being raped is very different- it' IS something that can
be coped with[ we understand that it's not our fault in some way.
>
> The CSA never gets that choice. All they get is the truth that
their body can be stollen in such insiduous and ways that horrify
them forever more. It is tainted forever after that. But it felt GOOD
(usually there is a sexual response invoked by the perpetrator in the
body of the child).
>
> How does one deal with that?
>
> THAT is the core of evil in my opinion.
> Doesn't matter if it wears a smile or a frown or walks, talks and
looks just like you and me. There is something there that defines
what evil IS in this world more than anything else, short of killing
and eatting the victim- which honestly might be more merciful in the
end, horrible as that might sound.
>
> What other definition fits evil better than the absolute
destruction of innocence in a tangible living way in a human soul?
>
> Support helps some.
> nothing can fix it
>
> and this is what we partners often fail to understand
>
> -that the rules we know no longer apply here
> with these people we love.
>
> the rules no longer apply.
> NONE of them.
>
> it's a whole new world.






---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You are so right, as a partner, you have this belief that love
conquers all and that if you just believe and if you are just strong
enough to show them that you are different from everyone else who has
let them down, then maybe then, they may know how much love is worth
and they maybe just maybe might have the courage to try to believe in
love, and the whole time you are lost in some disney fucking fairie
land, with your birds and butterflies, they are looking at you like
you are stupid, and they know that there is no way they could ever
explain their world to you because their world is so hideous that
they won't even look at it themselves.  But I love you honey, come
back we can get help.  Fucking wimp, can't even deal with his own
life, how could he help her with her problems.  It is best for him if
she just does what ever it takes to get him to go away and find
someone else that might believe in that disney birds and butterfly
shit.
It is a whole different world.  Even if we could see it and
understand it, they don't want to.  This is life to them, what they
have given you is the world they want to live in and don't expect to
ever see them say they are sincerely sorry.  Life was unkind to them,
you love them, you want to understand, here just try to eat this much
shit, and then tell me that you love me!!!
Don't give up on love, but....
Fuck the whole diseased world of CSA
Simon


--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, J Potter
<brahmadomtao@...> wrote:
>
> The guilt and shame of feeling pleasure from a sexual response in
incest is something that never goes away from what I see and
understand. Being raped is very different- it' IS something that can
be coped with[ we understand that it's not our fault in some way.
>
>   The CSA never gets that choice. All they get is the truth that
their body can be stollen in such insiduous and ways that horrify
them forever more. It is tainted forever after that. But it felt GOOD
(usually there is a sexual response invoked by the perpetrator in the
body of the child).
>
>   How does one deal with that?
>
>   THAT is the core of evil in my opinion.
>   Doesn't matter if it wears a smile or a frown or walks, talks and
looks just like you and me. There is something there that defines
what evil IS in this world more than anything else, short of killing
and eatting the victim- which honestly might be more merciful in the
end, horrible as that might sound.
>
>   What other definition fits evil better than the absolute
destruction of innocence in a tangible living way in a human soul?
>
>   Support helps some.
>   nothing can fix it
>
>   and this is what we partners often fail to understand
>
>   -that the rules we know no longer apply here
>   with these people we love.
>
>   the rules no longer apply.
>   NONE of them.
>
>   it's a whole new world.

The guilt and shame of feeling pleasure from a sexual response in incest is
something that never goes away from what I see and understand. Being raped is
very different- it' IS something that can be coped with[ we understand that it's
not our fault in some way.

   The CSA never gets that choice. All they get is the truth that their body can
be stollen in such insiduous and ways that horrify them forever more. It is
tainted forever after that. But it felt GOOD (usually there is a sexual response
invoked by the perpetrator in the body of the child).

   How does one deal with that?

   THAT is the core of evil in my opinion.
   Doesn't matter if it wears a smile or a frown or walks, talks and looks just
like you and me. There is something there that defines what evil IS in this
world more than anything else, short of killing and eatting the victim- which
honestly might be more merciful in the end, horrible as that might sound.

   What other definition fits evil better than the absolute destruction of
innocence in a tangible living way in a human soul?

   Support helps some.
   nothing can fix it

   and this is what we partners often fail to understand

   -that the rules we know no longer apply here
   with these people we love.

   the rules no longer apply.
   NONE of them.

   it's a whole new world.


daisymae542003 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
           You have a very good point JP. I suppose we are all just looking for
hope that the evil can be defeated and these are the situations we
WANT to hear about. It's sad but it rarely turns out that someone
can overcome the abusive ways they have known. I think it is a
matter of being equiped with the support system, the knowledge that
there are better ways, a desire to learn about ourselves and
personal accountability for how our lives affect others. Most people
in abusive situations don't have these tools nor do they know how to
find them. It is my belief that these "tools" are what makes the
major difference between a CSA/incest survivor & survivor of non-
family related sexual assault. I don't recall where I was going with
this but, thats my thoughts.

Daisy

--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, J Potter
<brahmadomtao@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, and ironically THESE are
more the stories we DO hear about outside of
psychology/social/hospital/therapy professions- partly because of
the STIGMA surrounding abuse situations (it's not a pleasant subject
so it's not talked about like a success story like this one is) and
partly because people tend to really like to hear about this sort of
wonderful brave courageous soul, vs. someone who just continues to
perpetuate the paradigm of abuse.
>
> One thing to realize.... Often the abuse is not intentional,
it's just what someone was taught and believes is how things are
done. If it's all we know, it's all we know...
>
> :)
>
> -JP
>






---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You have a very good point JP. I suppose we are all just looking for
hope that the evil can be defeated and these are the situations we
WANT to hear about. It's sad but it rarely turns out that someone
can overcome the abusive ways they have known. I think it is a
matter of being equiped with the support system, the knowledge that
there are better ways, a desire to learn about ourselves and
personal accountability for how our lives affect others. Most people
in abusive situations don't have these tools nor do they know how to
find them. It is my belief that these "tools" are what makes the
major difference between a CSA/incest survivor & survivor of non-
family related sexual assault. I don't recall where I was going with
this but, thats my thoughts.

Daisy


--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, J Potter
<brahmadomtao@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, and ironically THESE are
more the stories we DO hear about outside of
psychology/social/hospital/therapy professions- partly because of
the STIGMA surrounding abuse situations (it's not a pleasant subject
so it's not talked about like a success story like this one is) and
partly because people tend to really like to hear about this sort of
wonderful brave courageous soul, vs. someone who just continues to
perpetuate the paradigm of abuse.
>
>   One thing to realize.... Often the abuse is not intentional,
it's just what someone was taught and believes is how things are
done. If it's all we know, it's all we know...
>
>   :)
>
>   -JP
>

Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, and ironically THESE are more the stories
we DO hear about outside of psychology/social/hospital/therapy professions-
partly because of the STIGMA surrounding abuse situations (it's not a pleasant
subject so it's not talked about like a success story like this one is) and
partly because people tend to really like to hear about this sort of wonderful
brave courageous soul, vs. someone who just continues to perpetuate the paradigm
of abuse.

   One thing to realize.... Often the abuse is not intentional, it's just what
someone was taught and believes is how things are done. If it's all we know,
it's all we know...

   :)

   -JP

daisymae542003 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
           Brenda, I'm not sure about this. I think it depends very much on the
people involved though statistically JP is correct. I think about it
in this perspective... My dad was emotionally and physically (not
sexually) abused by my grandfather. My grandfather was a very
abusive man, treated my grandmother terribly as well as his
children. Statistically this would cause him to be an overly
aggresive mean man himself. In his teen years my father was a bit of
a scrapper, was very angry and easily provoked. Was vicious with his
siblings and anyone else who disagreed with him. When he married my
mother though, he made a choice to not be that man, not to be his
father and as a result my daddy is Superman. It was rare to hear him
curse or even raise his voice and he sure as heck never raised a
hand to any of our family. So I wouldn't say the nephew is for sure
in danger though the likely hood is scary and I feel the child
should be watched closely for signs.

Those are my thoughts on it. I hope it brought you some peace of
mind.

Daisy

--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, tryingtohelp2
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> I have a general question for you guys...
>
> > On Behalf Of J Potter
> > A predator is a predator is a predator. The ones who go after
kids
> > are some sick people and the one thing they PROVE is that the
> > absolutely WILL NOT do the right thing without SERIOUS
consequences
> > or even intervention that REMOVES them from the society. Again
and
> > again and again and again we see it- unrehabilitated pedophiles
and
> > child molesters are one of the biggest pains in the system and
> > general society. Why? Because they rarely EVER stop, no matter
what,
> > without prison time and serious, SERIOUS legal consequences- and
> > even then the odds are VERY slim they will
> > stop hurting children.
>
> My ex-partner was abused by his brother from when he was 9 (and
the
> brother was 12 or 13) until the time he was 16 (and the brother
was
> 19). His father abused him one time that he remembers when he was
> 13. My ex does NOT hold his brother accountable for any of that
> abuse. He cannot consider his brother an "abuser" at all. He
feels
> that his brother must have been abused by his father, too, and
> therefore didn't know any better and isn't to blame for his
actions.
>
> Add to that that this brother has a son, who is just 4 years old
now.
> I know my ex would not allow anything to happen to his nephew, but
he
> is not ready to talk to his brother about what happened yet (and
at
> this point, maybe never will be).
>
> So, IS a predator always a predator? Is there a chance that this
guy
> was merely reenacting behavior to survive and that he's not
> a "pedophile", given that he was only a few years older than my
ex?
> Our old therapist did not suggest we do anything about it at the
time
> when we were still together. She was, I think, going to let my ex
do
> it whenever he confronted the brother...
>
> Thanks,
> Love Brenda
>






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jammnott wrote:

> Thanks for listening Christopher.
>
Your welcome.

> True, she must make herself whole again.
>
Yes, Regardless of the time it takes.

> I have to return to that concept often and remind myself.
>
Good :-)

> Sometimes I feel educating myself, and our conversations, my
> conversations with trusted loved ones, are still my attempts to fix this.
>
Ah, ok. :-)

> It's sometimes a fine line between doing what is needed, to keep
> her/the children in our families safe, and indulging in conversation
> that is self serving at some level.
>
Good observation :-)

> I still have questions regarding the feasability of me becoming
> healthy, dropping co-d issues, being good for my kids within this
> messy situation.
>
Ok :-)

> I have been working through ambivalence in our relationship for the
> past few months, and it was only when I started living my own life and
> told her I wanted out that she started making changes.
>
I thought so.  I have seen that in the past. :-\

> Now the abuse issue arises, and she wants to deal with that, but of
> course needs me here for her recovery, but that's a broken record.
>
As in, 'all talk and, no action'? :-\

> Is it natural that her willingness and actions to work on this give me
> some optimism that maybe we can work through this, or am I kidding
> myself again?
>
Yes is natural. :-)

> I'm realizing that's specific and personal to my situation, but just
> generally...
>
> Nick
>
Good :-)

Christopher

Brenda, I'm not sure about this. I think it depends very much on the
people involved though statistically JP is correct. I think about it
in this perspective... My dad was emotionally and physically (not
sexually) abused by my grandfather. My grandfather was a very
abusive man, treated my grandmother terribly as well as his
children. Statistically this would cause him to be an overly
aggresive mean man himself. In his teen years my father was a bit of
a scrapper, was very angry and easily provoked. Was vicious with his
siblings and anyone else who disagreed with him. When he married my
mother though, he made a choice to not be that man, not to be his
father and as a result my daddy is Superman. It was rare to hear him
curse or even raise his voice and he sure as heck never raised a
hand to any of our family. So I wouldn't say the nephew is for sure
in danger though the likely hood is scary and I feel the child
should be watched closely for signs.

Those are my thoughts on it. I hope it brought you some peace of
mind.

Daisy

--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, tryingtohelp2
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> I have a general question for you guys...
>
> > On Behalf Of J Potter
> > A predator is a predator is a predator. The ones who go after
kids
> > are some sick people and the one thing they PROVE is that the
> > absolutely WILL NOT do the right thing without SERIOUS
consequences
> > or even intervention that REMOVES them from the society. Again
and
> > again and again and again we see it- unrehabilitated pedophiles
and
> > child molesters are one of the biggest pains in the system and
> > general society. Why? Because they rarely EVER stop, no matter
what,
> > without prison time and serious, SERIOUS legal consequences- and
> > even then the odds are VERY slim they will
> > stop hurting children.
>
> My ex-partner was abused by his brother from when he was 9 (and
the
> brother was 12 or 13) until the time he was 16 (and the brother
was
> 19).  His father abused him one time that he remembers when he was
> 13.  My ex does NOT hold his brother accountable for any of that
> abuse.  He cannot consider his brother an "abuser" at all.  He
feels
> that his brother must have been abused by his father, too, and
> therefore didn't know any better and isn't to blame for his
actions.
>
> Add to that that this brother has a son, who is just 4 years old
now.
> I know my ex would not allow anything to happen to his nephew, but
he
> is not ready to talk to his brother about what happened yet (and
at
> this point, maybe never will be).
>
> So, IS a predator always a predator?  Is there a chance that this
guy
> was merely reenacting behavior to survive and that he's not
> a "pedophile", given that he was only a few years older than my
ex?
> Our old therapist did not suggest we do anything about it at the
time
> when we were still together.  She was, I think, going to let my ex
do
> it whenever he confronted the brother...
>
> Thanks,
> Love Brenda
>

I just skimmed over this- no offense, just tired to tonight. Not sure if I got
the question correctly, but it seems to me that you are wondering if you can
gamble on that this situation is one of those rare situations that almost never
happen. Possibly because you know the people who are involved in some way. Kind
of like a patient asking the doctor if the prognosis could be wrong. Yes, there
is a slight chance- so get a second opinion -but how about a seriously REAL
qualified source? A professional in person... that might be worth a try? *grin*

   I was scared too... scared of all kinds of things when I first went in person
to a professional therapist. LORD... I was nervous as heck. *chuckle*

   To gamble that you are in one of the more rare situations might be the worst
mistake you can make.

   Only a QUALIFIED therapist and counselor and actually a psychiatrist is in ANY
position to alleviate doubts that this MIGHT be a possibly safer situation than
normal. And it will also take some time and sessions to determine this. THAT is
how difficult it is to tell if you are in one of those rare situations.

   Predators are people who were themselves abused.
   That means survivors who didn't really survive in some way- right?
   Meaning people themselves who ..are what... SURVIVORS.

   Uh-oh.
   YEAH...


   It doesn't matter HOW loving or capable or appropriate they SEEM. Just like we
can't spot AIDS patients or people with CANCER walking down the street or
sociopaths. What would be the signs? A certain brand of clothes? A certain
manner of speaking? A big red siren above their head??? A t-shirt that says "I
was once abused and I secretly am not sure if I could or would do what was done
to me and I'd try to NEVER EVER tell anyone as that is a secret so dark to me
even I DO NOT KNOW IT"

   It is so rare that a predator of children was NOT abused (and a survivor
themselves) that it's almost not even worth getting into. The ones we KNOW OF
are famous- and even then, there are a lot of psychological issues around their
upbringing and who created the monsters- meaning even THEN it's not certain if
they were BORN that way or created- THAT is how gray even THOSE situations are.

   How many survivors turn into serious predators? Well the ones who don't heal-
or for whom THAT IS PART OF THEIR HEALING ROAD. I don't know if there is
statistics but judging from how many CHILDREN KEEP BEING SEXUALLY MOLESTED AND
ABUSED I'd say that there ARE odds that it can happen. HORRIBLE! YES!!! And I
can hear the anger and the outrage.... But tell me then, WHO IS the ones who are
DOING THIS CRAP to the children???

   Yeah.
   So the responsibility must be faced in a realistic light.
   It's not good news.
   Personally at some point I think that at some point survivors will be
monitored aorund children in some manner because time and time again these are
the ones who perpetuate the paradigme.

   Something to think about that has compassion in it in thie regard: this has
been going on for EONS. Meaning, we're trying to heal something that has
probably been an ONGOING EVENT from possibly a lineage from the medieval times
or something... over centuries and through generation after generation after
generation....HEck, ROYALTY did it back in the "developed" nations of Europe. It
was even considered NORMAL at one point.

   But not anymore.
   NOT in this society.
   NOT where we belive children will become adults and have the right to lives
without fear and trauma and on-going mental and emotional illness and issues.

   Here's one fact that might help.

   2-out-of-3 girls by the age of 18 will have been raped, molested or sexually
assaulted or abused. We don't have statistics on this quite as certain for males
because the males have different coping styles- and talking about it isn't one.
However our prisons are FILLED with abusers who were abused and vented it on
society in actions. One predator can abuse thousands and thousands if given the
right circumstances.

   TWO OUT OF THREE GIRLS BEFORE THEY ARE ADULTS.

   -and the numbers are NOT going down, they are INCREASING year by year...it's
almost up to 5 out of 6.

   Who is doing this?

   Survivors of incest and sexual abuse and boundary violations of sexual nature
as children.

   How do we deal with it?
   we start to get real.
   We talk about it.
   We talk to professionals who get 6-8 year degrees and work in the field day in
and day out and stay informed as much as doctors do in how to operate before
they do surgery... we REACH OUT!!!

   so KUDOS!!!
   Bravo.

   If there are children involved and abuse survivors who have not healed or
recovered (I.E. still displaying symptoms of survival or abuse or issues
surrounding their childhood =unhealed, unrecovered) who experienced sexual abuse
as children, especially incest or on-going abuse and boundary violations or
invalidation around their power as sentient beings, get help now. REAL HELP.

   Professional help.

   You're not crazy for worry about it.
   NO crazier than the person who wonders afterwards why they didn't talk to
someone before something irretrivable happened that could not be taken back. Get
help.

   What have you got to loose?
   Who will know?
   What is the price to do your best to avoid horrible tragedy?
   How much is it worth?
   $60?
   $250?
   $400???

   Peace and hope everyone is getting the help they have a right to and seek and
the support we deserve as human beings. Keep talking are sharing the feelings
and emotions and thoughts. This is a wonderful place. We're here for each other
as much as we can be, but not as a substitute for professional help. Please keep
that in mind when there are children and other life forms of innocence involved.
Some things can't be taken back, ever.

   -Namaste.

   -JP


tryingtohelp2 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
           I have a general question for you guys...

> On Behalf Of J Potter
> A predator is a predator is a predator. The ones who go after kids
> are some sick people and the one thing they PROVE is that the
> absolutely WILL NOT do the right thing without SERIOUS consequences
> or even intervention that REMOVES them from the society. Again and
> again and again and again we see it- unrehabilitated pedophiles and
> child molesters are one of the biggest pains in the system and
> general society. Why? Because they rarely EVER stop, no matter what,
> without prison time and serious, SERIOUS legal consequences- and
> even then the odds are VERY slim they will
> stop hurting children.

My ex-partner was abused by his brother from when he was 9 (and the
brother was 12 or 13) until the time he was 16 (and the brother was
19). His father abused him one time that he remembers when he was
13. My ex does NOT hold his brother accountable for any of that
abuse. He cannot consider his brother an "abuser" at all. He feels
that his brother must have been abused by his father, too, and
therefore didn't know any better and isn't to blame for his actions.

Add to that that this brother has a son, who is just 4 years old now.
I know my ex would not allow anything to happen to his nephew, but he
is not ready to talk to his brother about what happened yet (and at
this point, maybe never will be).

So, IS a predator always a predator? Is there a chance that this guy
was merely reenacting behavior to survive and that he's not
a "pedophile", given that he was only a few years older than my ex?
Our old therapist did not suggest we do anything about it at the time
when we were still together. She was, I think, going to let my ex do
it whenever he confronted the brother...

Thanks,
Love Brenda






---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have a general question for you guys...

> On Behalf Of J Potter
> A predator is a predator is a predator. The ones who go after kids
> are some sick people and the one thing they PROVE is that the
> absolutely WILL NOT do the right thing without SERIOUS consequences
> or even intervention that REMOVES them from the society. Again and
> again and again and again we see it- unrehabilitated pedophiles and
> child molesters are one of the biggest pains in the system and
> general society. Why? Because they rarely EVER stop, no matter what,
> without prison time and serious, SERIOUS legal consequences- and
> even then the odds are VERY slim they will
> stop hurting children.

My ex-partner was abused by his brother from when he was 9 (and the
brother was 12 or 13) until the time he was 16 (and the brother was
19).  His father abused him one time that he remembers when he was
13.  My ex does NOT hold his brother accountable for any of that
abuse.  He cannot consider his brother an "abuser" at all.  He feels
that his brother must have been abused by his father, too, and
therefore didn't know any better and isn't to blame for his actions.

Add to that that this brother has a son, who is just 4 years old now.
I know my ex would not allow anything to happen to his nephew, but he
is not ready to talk to his brother about what happened yet (and at
this point, maybe never will be).

So, IS a predator always a predator?  Is there a chance that this guy
was merely reenacting behavior to survive and that he's not
a "pedophile", given that he was only a few years older than my ex?
Our old therapist did not suggest we do anything about it at the time
when we were still together.  She was, I think, going to let my ex do
it whenever he confronted the brother...

Thanks,
Love Brenda

I'm so sorry to hear about the situation with your wife. Others in
this group are far wiser than I and I defer to their responses.  My
partner of two years just left me without any warning and I'm still
picking up the pieces of myself.

With regard to your daughters... Would you have the ability and means
to take custody completely?  It would be really hard on your wife to
lose them, but as you said you need to think of their safety.  Could a
court require her to go to counseling?  The restraining order sounds
like a great idea.  If your wife is angry, I would say to her that you
are being the advocate for your children that she deserved to have. We
all wish we could go back in time and protect the ones we love from
the abuses they suffered.  I would think of a restraining order as
proactively doing exactly that.

Good luck to you, and keep us posted.
Love Brenda

My wife of 18 years has been to councelling for 6 years for step-
father/daughter child abuse.  As she became stronger, she decided to
file for divorce in 2004.  Her councelor tried to talk her our of
it, but she went ahead anyway with the procedings, until the court
appearance...it was brutal.  All of her past dealings with other men
were brought up and she basically was crucified by my legal
representative.  Shortly after the  judges decree on how the debts
were going to be handled, she called it all off and told me she
never wanted a divorce and asked me to come back home.

She also told me that she had made all the stories up about the
abuse and she told me that she had informed her counsellor of the
same.  She told me she told her parents that she had said terrible
things about them to me and she new that it had damaged my
relationship with them.

I figured she was making this story up and it was confirmed to me by
her councelor that she never had contacted her to tell her anything
of the sort.  She aburptly stopped councelling in 2004 and hasn't
been back since.  She says she gets all of her strength from God and
doesn't need to go to counceling.

She began acting out in May of this year and as I began to question
her she felt like I was suffocating her and she said she needed
space.  She said either she would move to the farm where the abuse
took place with our two daughters, or I could leave the house and
they would stay.  I left only because I couldn't take the chance of
something happening to my daughters ages 4 and 7.

Needless to say, I am still out of the house.  I want to come home
and she is a classic walking case for a survivor.  The only symptom
she doesn't have is that of a severe alcohol or drug problem.

Any suggestions on how i can get back into my home or how I can help
her to see that she needs to continue with her councelling.

I was told that if I had my attorney write to her councelor and ask
her if she felt that my daughters would be endangered if they were
to be left unsupervised at the farm with her stepfather, that she
would have to answer the question affirmatively if my wifes
counseling indicated such.  If this were the case, I could get a
restraining order to keep her from taking the kids to the farm.  I
could move back home and she would either have to stay or move out
on her own which she cannot afford.  Any ideas?

Thanks for all the ideas. Both granddaughter and her mom are seeing
councilors, and my wife sees one anyways. My grand daughter talked to a
detective and the councilor with my daughter there. The detective is
talking to the ex tomorrow. I expect him to deny it of course. I think
he did it to get back at my daughter for leaving him. And yes, we've
already thought about the boys...This will be on going...Thanks for all
the help!! Will keep you guys posted. On the good side: My wife&I have
been getting close again. For a couple years now, even tho we have been
fairly happy, recently its been real good. So there is hope after
finding out your wife was raped as a child...you can work thru the
shit. I still don't blame anybody for not working thru it, but it seems
that our hanging in there paid off. That's why its hard to learn this
about our grand daughter now. But life goes on!! Neal

Hello, welcome to the group. I hope I'm not too late at responding
but I wanted to give you a "second opinion" if you will.

I will never tell someone to run from thier survivor. (Being a
survivor myself I guess I'm a bit biased.) Don't get me wrong, there
are situations that are so unhealthy that running is the only
option. And sadly, that is often the case for someone in a
relationship with a survivor. But I believe in exhausting all
avenues before giving up on anything especially another human being.

Insecurity is a big problem with most survivors, heck its a problem
for just about everyone that has been hurt. We have been trained
that people we love will hurt us. As far as him inquiring about past
relationships, those relationships failed, he may be digging to see
how he measures up to the others. If he has a negative self image,
there is a possibility that is because he aims the blame of his
abuse at himself. "There must be something about me that caused the
abuse"

Of course all this is speculation. And I don't want to sugar coat
things. This will be a LONG TOUGH road. Some of us make it through
the hell that SA causes and have stronger relationships in the end.
But the battle is uphill if he isn't willing to communicate and work
on himself. Be open and honest with him and seek help from a
professional for both of you if you can.

Best of luck!
Daisy

--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "encantada105"
<encantada105@...> wrote:
>
> I would like to thank you for the sugestions. I want to be there
for
> him but I understand the importance of not losing touch with my
needs.
> Is being insecure a common issue with men who have been abused?
This
> has been a extremely large issue especially recently when my
> exboyfriend tried to contact me. My boyfriend has self image
issues
> that go so far as to inhibit our sex life and make for several
> arguments. I feel as though I have to constantly prove my
affection,
> attraction, and explain every detail of my past relationships. He
> wants to know everything that happen over and over again. Then if
my
> story changes in any way I am made out to be a liar. I am scared
to
> say the wrong thing because it leads to drama. Is this a common
issue
> for sexually abused men? How do I stop this? How do I help him?
How do
> I convince him that I love him and want to be there but he makes
it
> hard? Am I not doing a good job or is ther something that I am
> missing? I just need someone who has been through this to let me
know
> if this is normal and if there is something that I can do.
Thanks...
>

Oh.  One more thing.  In cases where you believe a child may have or
certainly has been molested, perhaps a good first step is to go to
one of the local hospitals where hopefully they have a sexual assault
team who can be brought in to help guide you through your legal
options.  As Daisy stated, these services are normally free.  This
may be a better first step than going straight to the police.  Often
an advocate from the assault center can then be on hand to help you
talk with the police and make sure the police are remembering the
sensitive nature of the situation rather than coming
in "gangbusters".

Also, if you ever suspect a child has just been molested, it is
important to get them to the hospital as soon as possible so they can
be examined for evidence by a trained "SANE" (sexual assault nurse
examiner).  At this time the SANE and/or advocate will contact the
police/detectives and be there while you speak with them.  A
qualified, properly trained SANE will be able to examine the child in
such a way that trauma is not aggravated...whereas your typical nurse
or doctor may not.  In fact, often your average nurse and or doctor
is very awkward and uncomfortable dealing with these situations.

If you suspect a child has just been molested, and are taking them
for an examination for evidence, it is best not to wash or bathe them
so evidence is not tampered with.  Also, if they are old enough to
hold off on using the restroom, that is important because then a
urine sample can be taken at the hospital.  If there was genital
contact or the perpetrator left signs of his own fluid on the child,
it can be detected.  Also, keep them in the same clothing they were
wearing (and underwear), but bring a change of clothes because the
clothing they were wearing will be taken for examination.  It likely
won't be returned.  I had cases where the parents were so strapped
financially that they decided, in light of the small chances for
conviction, it was not worth it to them to give up the clothing of
their child that they spent hard-pressed dollars on.

So, there are many, many variables involved in this unfortunate
process.

I also wanted to mention that often, without any DNA evidence, it is
very difficult to convict a molester.  Several times in my volunteer
experience, a child would be brought in by a parent, and, while the
nurse would do an examination...and sometimes it appeared physically
there was suspicious appearance that foul play had occurred, without
dna evidence, or the alleged molester actually being caught red-handed,
we had to tell the concerned parent, that honestly they would be hard-
pressed to get a conviction.  Unfortunately, children can be easily
influenced to tell adults (such as nurses, detectives, etc) what they
think adults want to hear.  Particularly if they are asked
blatant "leading" questions such as "did he touch you? did he hurt your
pee-pee" etc.  The best thing to do, if you think a child had been
molested, is to ask them more open questions where you aren't trying to
influence their answer.

But, because of this, in court, often a child's testimony is considered
to be unreliable.

Thank you for your comments and acknowledgement.

Scott

   _____

From: positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
tristanmarrok
Sent: 11/01/2006 6:14 AM
To: positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [POS Re: granddaughter



I have to say I agree with Scott on this one. While, no, I am not an
expert or a psychology major...I was a victim advocate for local
hospitals for 2 years. At no time in our training or consultations
with experts were we told to encourage a child, or parents of a
child, to go through the legal process to put a perpetrator behind
bars. In fact we were cautioned because sometimes the legal system
is anything but sensitive to the child's emotions/experience.
Although extensive collaboration was continually taking place to try
to improve that situation. But, the most common approach we were
encouraged to take, was to minimize the amount of times the child
needs to re-tell the traumatic story.

Unfortunately, especially depending on the age of a child, a child
may not remember, or be able to articulate, certain aspects of the
abuse. The defense (as opposed to plaintiff) in a case may tear
apart a child's testimony.

JP, really, it may be prudent to tone it down and get off the high
horse a little. The vigilance with which you write your posts come
across as trying to control the decisions that the poster makes. And
they come across as arrogant, when sometimes you are missing the mark
on what's really going on with people.

--- In positivepartnersofs
<mailto:positivepartnersofsurvivors%40yahoogroups.com>
urvivors@yahoogroups.com, "Scott M. Perry"
<owner@...> wrote:
>
> Neal,
> What I said to you I said from personal experience. I am sure
that JP
> means well but I can only speak to you from my own experience from
being an
> abuse survivor and a parent of a child who went through the system.
I won't
> get into a debate with JP or any other on here about what I know to
be facts
> from my own reactions to the abuse I suffered as well as the facts
I know
> through my own education in regard to psychology, and the fact that
I have
> been dealing with the effects of Complex Post Traumatic Stress
Disorder for
> over 30 years, no I am not licensed at this point but psychology IS
my
> chosen Major.
>
> My step-daughter was virtually harassed both by the detectives
and the
> DA regarding her rapes. They wanted specific details and my step-
daughter
> was too distraught each time she was forced to think about the
rapes to be
> able to give the details without completely breaking down. At one
point, I
> fired the so called Victim's Advocate, because she was in the DA's
office
> while the DA (A female I may add) was raising her voice at my step-
daughter
> yelling at her "YOU HAVE TO TELL US THE DETAILS OF WHAT
HAPPENED!!!" From
> that point on I sat in the DA's office with my step-daughter and
when the DA
> started to raise her voice I ended the meeting and made the DA
reschedule
> it. What I suggested to you was NOT A MYTH I LIVED IT!
>
> The best possible advise that I can give you is this: Don't
listen to
> me, and don't listen to anyone on this board except to brainstorm
questions
> that you should ask a professional. And that would be my advise -
Ask a
> professional. Ask them about the PROCESS of this going into the
courts.
> Above all else - listen to your grand-daughter's wishes.
>
> Please do not make her relive the nightmare in order to get
this jackass
> behind bars. Please do not force her to suffer twice the amount of
pain than
> she has. I wish you the best of luck.
>
> Scott
>
> _____
>
> From: positivepartnersofs
<mailto:positivepartnersofsurvivors%40yahoogroups.com>
urvivors@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:positivepartnersofs
<mailto:positivepartnersofsurvivors%40yahoogroups.com>
urvivors@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J
Potter
> Sent: 10/31/2006 11:11 AM
> To: positivepartnersofs
<mailto:positivepartnersofsurvivors%40yahoogroups.com>
urvivors@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [POS granddaughter
>
>
>
> Hi Neal
>
> I have been watching the threads and I do feel the need to
interject here.
> Scott mentioned that "...Many times the legal process is more
damaging to a
> young
> person than the molestation itself..."
>
> Neal, this is common myth and actually is rarely a problem. I have
been
> studying abuse and neglect in college psychology and this is ONE of
MANY
> myths (a common one) about abuse and neglect that many people have.
This
> MIGHT have once been true in the archaic ages in the USA, but it is
hardly
> EVER, by FAR, a problem now. The people who work with the children
in these
> situations are not only highly trained but do it out of love and
respect and
> -OFTEN- because they were once victims themselves and empathize
deeply with
> the needs and issues around this for a youth or child. To get where
they are
> they HAVE to have passed some training requirements, a TON of hard
work and
> school and have a LOVE of the often painful and horribly
disappointing work
> they do- and the reward is in knowing one more child is being
helped in a
> long-term REAL way.
>
> Without corrective intervention we have come to understand that the
> predators odds of offending again are almost 100%- meaning it's a
no-loose
> bet that either your grandaughter is one OF MANY little children
molested
> (or worse) -or the beginning of a very sick persons's crossing the
line and
> causing extreme damage to innocent beings.
>
> It's worth bringing this up as a correction vs. OPINION when
people's future
> mental and emotional welfare are hinged on possible choices by
caretakers
> and providers.
>
> --------
>
> On that note I'd like to point out to the newer members on here
that few is
> ANY people on here have degrees in the field we are talking about-
does
> ANYONE have a BA in counseling or psychology on here? I don't, and
so far I
> have yet to see anyone who does (Shelly might)...THAT IS WORTH
NOTING!
>
> We're here to support each other in crisis times but we are NOT
substitutes
> for REAL PROFESSIONAL HELP-!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> -When children are getting directly abused or hurt this internet
support
> group stuff by itself is not an adequate place to deal with it- and
we are
> not fully trained or "learned" in many of the facts and statistics,
> processes or ways healing happens or is facilitated. As a matter of
fact,
> realistically, most of us are on here or HAVE BEEN because we
lacked exactly
> the KIND of discretion, training and understandings to deal with
this stuff
> to begin with. That is a FACT. A hard-core one and painful but a
fact.
>
> We care though- and we're all on here for healing from what I have
seen- and
> I might be the most hard-assed of us (lol!)... but I care a lot
too. Just
> gotta keep things in a realistic perspective. THIS IS THE INTERNET!
This is
> NO substitute for HANDS-ON sort of REAL-CONTACT, real world help
and therapy
> and intervention.
>
> Keep that in mind. A lot of input on this board is practical OR
feelings and
> opinions- often the same stuff that got many of us into the messes
we are in
> or have been in. Take things with a grain of salt if you are in a
position
> to make CRITICAL LIFE CHOICES for children- and PLEASE get some
professional
> advice for that child. The mother will not be in a fit state to
choose. She
> is attracting predators which are the BIGGEST clue that she herself
is a
> victim of this same sort of problem her daughter now suffers from.
Odds are
> the mother herself needs victim-trauma therapy -this is as common
as getting
> upset from being abused, that is how typical this paradigm is. As
it is also
> almost a CERTAIN that her parents are survivors themselves unhealed
in many
> ways (and how the daughter was vulnerable to predators herself, and
the
> grandaughter as well). It's called the "Cycle of Abuse".....
>
> What might help is getting PROFESSIONAL HELP. If you don't want to
sit
> idle...you COULD try....
>
> 1) Finding a child therapist who is not only highly trained but has
a
> reputation for being wonderful, kind, caring and gentle with the
kids.
> 2) Letting the mother know you are going to help or will pay for an
> appointment (and that she would be welcome to observe most likely)
with a
> professional counselor for your grandaughter (you don't have legal
rights
> but often if done in a way to make it convenient and up to the
mother and
> her daughter and at a time that will work with schedules one can
FACILITATE
> an easy and casual first encounter with a professional helper in a
> theraputic role)....
> 3) Making the appointment and helping them make it to the
appointment
> (include it in a fun afternoon?) and having a fun time and helping
alleviate
> some of the stress that is common when first attending such an
event....
>
> --------------------------
>
> There is a REAL REASON people get degrees in this stuff.
> Please keep that in mind.
>
> And there are few trained professionals on here- if ANY (so far no
one has
> put their credentials out there).
>
>
> The long-term healing of the child will be far more beneficial to
her than
> the stress of talking with people a few times in a gentle situation
where
> her welfare and state of mind and emotions will be of UTMOST concern
> (hearings). If you have any doubts about prosecution, just realize
this:
>
> If the predator would molest one little girl….do you really think
they would
> abstain or have abstained from crossing that line with others,
before this
> one or after? Your grandaughter might be one in a LONG LINE of
molested or
> raped children, and she will be proud of her role when she is old
enough to
> understand that she helped stop other girls from the pain she might
go
> through as she matures. THAT might even be a lifeline for her... to
know
> that she was not only strong but DID THE RIGHT THING!!!!
>
> Victims blame themselves and suffer extreme guilt and shame-
imagine what a
> blessing this could be for her later on down the road- and even
within a few
> hours. She can be PROUD of her role and KNOW she did the RIGHT
THING. That
> might be enough to offset anything else.
>
> WHAT A GIFT.
>
> She helped stop a very bad man. A predator is a predator is a
predator. The
> ones who go after kids are some sick people and the one thing they
PROVE is
> that the absolutely WILL NOT do the right thing without SERIOUS
consequences
> or even intervention that REMOVES them from the society. Again and
again and
> again and again we see it- unrehabilitated pedophiles and child
molesters
> are one of the biggest pains in the system and general society.
Why? Because
> they rarely EVER stop, no matter what, without prison time and
serious,
> SERIOUS legal consequences- and even then the odds are VERY slim
they will
> stop hurting children.
>
> You won't be just having your daughter there- but all the victims
before and
> then who might come after for the rest of his life that he almost
assuredly
> will harm. How old is he? How many years will he live??? HOW MANY
OTHER
> CHILDREN ARE YOU WILLING TO ALLOW TO GET DAMAGED POSSIBLY
IRREVOCABLY so
> that you could "protect" your granddaughter from an assumed few
minutes of
> stress to do the right thing- something SHE WILL THANK you for
later on
> anyway…*wink*
>
> I know I am being a bit hard-assed again but this is not opinion,
but
> research done by MANY MANY MANY people -survivors and victims alike
who have
> taken it upon themselves to dedicate decades of their lives to
learning and
> protecting others and spreading the knowlege and research amongst
the world.
> Hundreds and THOUSANDS of people with HUGE HEARTS.
>
> so there ya have it, some ALMOST-professional advice (working on my
MA in
> psychology and counseling at the University of Washington, USA-
specializing
> in PTSD and Trauma therapy, and eventually my PhD). This
information is
> available in the first 100-level college classes on abuse and
neglect.
>
> Sincerely,
> JP
>
> "Scott M. Perry" <owner@mainelypublis <mailto:owner%
40mainelypublishing.com>
> hing.com> wrote:
> Hi Neal,
> First I want to tell you how sorry I am that your grand-daughter was
> molested. The fact that she was not penetrated (Raped), does not
really mean
> that she did not experience what happened to her as rape. The
reality of it
> is that someday, that is exactly how she is likely to see it.
Please allow
> her to "name it" in whatever terms she chooses. The danger here is
that if
> she tells someone in the future that she was raped by her Dad, and
anyone
> says to her, "well you were molested, but not raped" she will be
more likely
> to suffer confusion about the incident. She may feel that if others
feel a
> need to point out that it was not rape, then maybe what she
endured "wasn't
> all that serious," and that can stand in the way of recovery.
>
> State laws are different in each state, but I suspect that your
daughter
> will be able to get some form of state help, though I can not be
sure. It's
> all based on income. Are you sure that he didn't also do something
to the
> two boys? I would say don't push the issue with the boys but also
don't
> assume that because "they are his children, that he would not do
that."
>
> I am a childhood incest survivor myself and my step-daughter was
> molested and raped by two male cousins who lived next door to her
fathers
> house. Because they were underage, the law did very little to them.
But the
> detectives will try to determine if they will be able to build a
case
> against your ex-son-in-law. If they have enough evidence to put him
on trial
> they will, but don't get your hopes too high. Unless you have an
eyewitness
> who has a stellar reputation it will be difficult. Many times
children do
> not want to tell anyone (DA's, detectives etc) what happened to
them AND
> they don't want to feel like they did something to put someone they
love and
> care about in Jail. Many times the legal process is more damaging
to a young
> person than the molestation itself. Your daughter has to do what is
BEST FOR
> HER DAUGHTER - and she must put your grand-daughter's needs first
and
> foremost.
>
> Again, I am so sorry about your grand-daughter. I hope it all works
out
> the way it is supposed to. Counseling may be helpful to your grand-
daughter,
> but she has to be willing to partake of it for it to be helpful.
Sometimes
> people just do not want to deal with this issue until much later in
life. I
> hope you find something helpful in this reply.
>
> Scott
>
> _____
>
> From: positivepartnersofs
> <mailto:positivepartnersofsurvivors%40yahoogroups.com>
> urvivors@yahoogroup <mailto:urvivors%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
> [mailto:positivepartnersofs
> <mailto:positivepartnersofsurvivors%40yahoogroups.com>
> urvivors@yahoogroup <mailto:urvivors%40yahoogroups.com> s.com] On Behalf
Of deafdogdad
> Sent: 10/31/2006 4:43 AM
> To: positivepartnersofs
> <mailto:positivepartnersofsurvivors%40yahoogroups.com>
> urvivors@yahoogroup <mailto:urvivors%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
> Subject: [POS granddaughter
>
> We found out recently that our granddaughter was molested by our ex-
son-
> in-law. She wasn't raped thankfully, but molested just the same.
After
> living thru this crap with my wife, it seemed like we were over the
> worse, now this comes up. Our daughter has 3 children, 2 boys are
my
> son-in-law's. The graddaughter isn't his, tho she thinks he's her
> father. If he goes to jail, will the state help her? If he denies
it,
> will the state take him to court? He's being talked to by a
detective
> today...Thanks for any help!! Neal
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ---------------------------------
> Low, Low, Low Rates! Check out Yahoo! Messenger's cheap PC-to-Phone
call
> rates.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have to say I agree with Scott on this one.  While, no, I am not an
expert or a psychology major...I was a victim advocate for local
hospitals for 2 years.  At no time in our training or consultations
with experts were we told to encourage a child, or parents of a
child, to go through the legal process to put a perpetrator behind
bars.  In fact we were cautioned because sometimes the legal system
is anything but sensitive to the child's emotions/experience.
Although extensive collaboration was continually taking place to try
to improve that situation.  But, the most common approach we were
encouraged to take, was to minimize the amount of times the child
needs to re-tell the traumatic story.

Unfortunately, especially depending on the age of a child, a child
may not remember, or be able to articulate, certain aspects of the
abuse.  The defense (as opposed to plaintiff) in a case may tear
apart a child's testimony.

JP, really, it may be prudent to tone it down and get off the high
horse a little.  The vigilance with which you write your posts come
across as trying to control the decisions that the poster makes.  And
they come across as arrogant, when sometimes you are missing the mark
on what's really going on with people.

--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "Scott M. Perry"
<owner@...> wrote:
>
> Neal,
>     What I said to you I said from personal experience. I am sure
that JP
> means well but I can only speak to you from my own experience from
being an
> abuse survivor and a parent of a child who went through the system.
I won't
> get into a debate with JP or any other on here about what I know to
be facts
> from my own reactions to the abuse I suffered as well as the facts
I know
> through my own education in regard to psychology, and the fact that
I have
> been dealing with the effects of Complex Post Traumatic Stress
Disorder for
> over 30 years, no I am not licensed at this point but psychology IS
my
> chosen Major.
>
>     My step-daughter was virtually harassed both by the detectives
and the
> DA regarding her rapes. They wanted specific details and my step-
daughter
> was too distraught each time she was forced to think about the
rapes to be
> able to give the details without completely breaking down. At one
point, I
> fired the so called Victim's Advocate, because she was in the DA's
office
> while the DA (A female I may add) was raising her voice at my step-
daughter
> yelling at her "YOU HAVE TO TELL US THE DETAILS OF WHAT
HAPPENED!!!" From
> that point on I sat in the DA's office with my step-daughter and
when the DA
> started to raise her voice I ended the meeting and made the DA
reschedule
> it. What I suggested to you was NOT A MYTH I LIVED IT!
>
>     The best possible advise that I can give you is this: Don't
listen to
> me, and don't listen to anyone on this board except to brainstorm
questions
> that you should ask a professional. And that would be my advise -
Ask a
> professional. Ask them about the PROCESS of this going into the
courts.
> Above all else - listen to your grand-daughter's wishes.
>
>     Please do not make her relive the nightmare in order to get
this jackass
> behind bars. Please do not force her to suffer twice the amount of
pain than
> she has. I wish you the best of luck.
>
> Scott
>
>   _____
>
> From: positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J
Potter
> Sent: 10/31/2006 11:11 AM
> To: positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [POS granddaughter
>
>
>
> Hi Neal
>
> I have been watching the threads and I do feel the need to
interject here.
> Scott mentioned that "...Many times the legal process is more
damaging to a
> young
> person than the molestation itself..."
>
> Neal, this is common myth and actually is rarely a problem. I have
been
> studying abuse and neglect in college psychology and this is ONE of
MANY
> myths (a common one) about abuse and neglect that many people have.
This
> MIGHT have once been true in the archaic ages in the USA, but it is
hardly
> EVER, by FAR, a problem now. The people who work with the children
in these
> situations are not only highly trained but do it out of love and
respect and
> -OFTEN- because they were once victims themselves and empathize
deeply with
> the needs and issues around this for a youth or child. To get where
they are
> they HAVE to have passed some training requirements, a TON of hard
work and
> school and have a LOVE of the often painful and horribly
disappointing work
> they do- and the reward is in knowing one more child is being
helped in a
> long-term REAL way.
>
> Without corrective intervention we have come to understand that the
> predators odds of offending again are almost 100%- meaning it's a
no-loose
> bet that either your grandaughter is one OF MANY little children
molested
> (or worse) -or the beginning of a very sick persons's crossing the
line and
> causing extreme damage to innocent beings.
>
> It's worth bringing this up as a correction vs. OPINION when
people's future
> mental and emotional welfare are hinged on possible choices by
caretakers
> and providers.
>
> --------
>
> On that note I'd like to point out to the newer members on here
that few is
> ANY people on here have degrees in the field we are talking about-
does
> ANYONE have a BA in counseling or psychology on here? I don't, and
so far I
> have yet to see anyone who does (Shelly might)...THAT IS WORTH
NOTING!
>
> We're here to support each other in crisis times but we are NOT
substitutes
> for REAL PROFESSIONAL HELP-!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> -When children are getting directly abused or hurt this internet
support
> group stuff by itself is not an adequate place to deal with it- and
we are
> not fully trained or "learned" in many of the facts and statistics,
> processes or ways healing happens or is facilitated. As a matter of
fact,
> realistically, most of us are on here or HAVE BEEN because we
lacked exactly
> the KIND of discretion, training and understandings to deal with
this stuff
> to begin with. That is a FACT. A hard-core one and painful but a
fact.
>
> We care though- and we're all on here for healing from what I have
seen- and
> I might be the most hard-assed of us (lol!)... but I care a lot
too. Just
> gotta keep things in a realistic perspective. THIS IS THE INTERNET!
This is
> NO substitute for HANDS-ON sort of REAL-CONTACT, real world help
and therapy
> and intervention.
>
> Keep that in mind. A lot of input on this board is practical OR
feelings and
> opinions- often the same stuff that got many of us into the messes
we are in
> or have been in. Take things with a grain of salt if you are in a
position
> to make CRITICAL LIFE CHOICES for children- and PLEASE get some
professional
> advice for that child. The mother will not be in a fit state to
choose. She
> is attracting predators which are the BIGGEST clue that she herself
is a
> victim of this same sort of problem her daughter now suffers from.
Odds are
> the mother herself needs victim-trauma therapy -this is as common
as getting
> upset from being abused, that is how typical this paradigm is. As
it is also
> almost a CERTAIN that her parents are survivors themselves unhealed
in many
> ways (and how the daughter was vulnerable to predators herself, and
the
> grandaughter as well). It's called the "Cycle of Abuse".....
>
> What might help is getting PROFESSIONAL HELP. If you don't want to
sit
> idle...you COULD try....
>
> 1) Finding a child therapist who is not only highly trained but has
a
> reputation for being wonderful, kind, caring and gentle with the
kids.
> 2) Letting the mother know you are going to help or will pay for an
> appointment (and that she would be welcome to observe most likely)
with a
> professional counselor for your grandaughter (you don't have legal
rights
> but often if done in a way to make it convenient and up to the
mother and
> her daughter and at a time that will work with schedules one can
FACILITATE
> an easy and casual first encounter with a professional helper in a
> theraputic role)....
> 3) Making the appointment and helping them make it to the
appointment
> (include it in a fun afternoon?) and having a fun time and helping
alleviate
> some of the stress that is common when first attending such an
event....
>
> --------------------------
>
> There is a REAL REASON people get degrees in this stuff.
> Please keep that in mind.
>
> And there are few trained professionals on here- if ANY (so far no
one has
> put their credentials out there).
>
>
> The long-term healing of the child will be far more beneficial to
her than
> the stress of talking with people a few times in a gentle situation
where
> her welfare and state of mind and emotions will be of UTMOST concern
> (hearings). If you have any doubts about prosecution, just realize
this:
>
> If the predator would molest one little girl….do you really think
they would
> abstain or have abstained from crossing that line with others,
before this
> one or after? Your grandaughter might be one in a LONG LINE of
molested or
> raped children, and she will be proud of her role when she is old
enough to
> understand that she helped stop other girls from the pain she might
go
> through as she matures. THAT might even be a lifeline for her... to
know
> that she was not only strong but DID THE RIGHT THING!!!!
>
> Victims blame themselves and suffer extreme guilt and shame-
imagine what a
> blessing this could be for her later on down the road- and even
within a few
> hours. She can be PROUD of her role and KNOW she did the RIGHT
THING. That
> might be enough to offset anything else.
>
> WHAT A GIFT.
>
> She helped stop a very bad man. A predator is a predator is a
predator. The
> ones who go after kids are some sick people and the one thing they
PROVE is
> that the absolutely WILL NOT do the right thing without SERIOUS
consequences
> or even intervention that REMOVES them from the society. Again and
again and
> again and again we see it- unrehabilitated pedophiles and child
molesters
> are one of the biggest pains in the system and general society.
Why? Because
> they rarely EVER stop, no matter what, without prison time and
serious,
> SERIOUS legal consequences- and even then the odds are VERY slim
they will
> stop hurting children.
>
> You won't be just having your daughter there- but all the victims
before and
> then who might come after for the rest of his life that he almost
assuredly
> will harm. How old is he? How many years will he live??? HOW MANY
OTHER
> CHILDREN ARE YOU WILLING TO ALLOW TO GET DAMAGED POSSIBLY
IRREVOCABLY so
> that you could "protect" your granddaughter from an assumed few
minutes of
> stress to do the right thing- something SHE WILL THANK you for
later on
> anyway…*wink*
>
> I know I am being a bit hard-assed again but this is not opinion,
but
> research done by MANY MANY MANY people -survivors and victims alike
who have
> taken it upon themselves to dedicate decades of their lives to
learning and
> protecting others and spreading the knowlege and research amongst
the world.
> Hundreds and THOUSANDS of people with HUGE HEARTS.
>
> so there ya have it, some ALMOST-professional advice (working on my
MA in
> psychology and counseling at the University of Washington, USA-
specializing
> in PTSD and Trauma therapy, and eventually my PhD). This
information is
> available in the first 100-level college classes on abuse and
neglect.
>
> Sincerely,
> JP
>
> "Scott M. Perry" <owner@mainelypublis <mailto:owner%
40mainelypublishing.com>
> hing.com> wrote:
> Hi Neal,
> First I want to tell you how sorry I am that your grand-daughter was
> molested. The fact that she was not penetrated (Raped), does not
really mean
> that she did not experience what happened to her as rape. The
reality of it
> is that someday, that is exactly how she is likely to see it.
Please allow
> her to "name it" in whatever terms she chooses. The danger here is
that if
> she tells someone in the future that she was raped by her Dad, and
anyone
> says to her, "well you were molested, but not raped" she will be
more likely
> to suffer confusion about the incident. She may feel that if others
feel a
> need to point out that it was not rape, then maybe what she
endured "wasn't
> all that serious," and that can stand in the way of recovery.
>
> State laws are different in each state, but I suspect that your
daughter
> will be able to get some form of state help, though I can not be
sure. It's
> all based on income. Are you sure that he didn't also do something
to the
> two boys? I would say don't push the issue with the boys but also
don't
> assume that because "they are his children, that he would not do
that."
>
> I am a childhood incest survivor myself and my step-daughter was
> molested and raped by two male cousins who lived next door to her
fathers
> house. Because they were underage, the law did very little to them.
But the
> detectives will try to determine if they will be able to build a
case
> against your ex-son-in-law. If they have enough evidence to put him
on trial
> they will, but don't get your hopes too high. Unless you have an
eyewitness
> who has a stellar reputation it will be difficult. Many times
children do
> not want to tell anyone (DA's, detectives etc) what happened to
them AND
> they don't want to feel like they did something to put someone they
love and
> care about in Jail. Many times the legal process is more damaging
to a young
> person than the molestation itself. Your daughter has to do what is
BEST FOR
> HER DAUGHTER - and she must put your grand-daughter's needs first
and
> foremost.
>
> Again, I am so sorry about your grand-daughter. I hope it all works
out
> the way it is supposed to. Counseling may be helpful to your grand-
daughter,
> but she has to be willing to partake of it for it to be helpful.
Sometimes
> people just do not want to deal with this issue until much later in
life. I
> hope you find something helpful in this reply.
>
> Scott
>
> _____
>
> From: positivepartnersofs
> <mailto:positivepartnersofsurvivors%40yahoogroups.com>
> urvivors@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:positivepartnersofs
> <mailto:positivepartnersofsurvivors%40yahoogroups.com>
> urvivors@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of deafdogdad
> Sent: 10/31/2006 4:43 AM
> To: positivepartnersofs
> <mailto:positivepartnersofsurvivors%40yahoogroups.com>
> urvivors@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [POS granddaughter
>
> We found out recently that our granddaughter was molested by our ex-
son-
> in-law. She wasn't raped thankfully, but molested just the same.
After
> living thru this crap with my wife, it seemed like we were over the
> worse, now this comes up. Our daughter has 3 children, 2 boys are
my
> son-in-law's. The graddaughter isn't his, tho she thinks he's her
> father. If he goes to jail, will the state help her? If he denies
it,
> will the state take him to court? He's being talked to by a
detective
> today...Thanks for any help!! Neal
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ---------------------------------
> Low, Low, Low Rates! Check out Yahoo! Messenger's cheap PC-to-Phone
call
> rates.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi Daisy,
     Yes it's been quite a while. I have been so busy with college and
business and therapy - it just seems never ending. And you bring up a good
point to Neal, specifically that they whole family could need support. I
know in my experience with my step-daughter, her experience was what
triggered me to get help for myself. It started the whole PTSD symptoms in
full force for me.

     I hope all has been going well for you Daisy.

Scott

   _____

From: positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
daisymae542003
Sent: 10/31/2006 5:40 PM
To: positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [POS granddaughter



Scott, so nice to see you posting. Either I've been asleep or its
been awhile.

Neal, I am so sorry for what has happened to your granddaugter. My
heart goes out to your whole family.

Most states or charity organizations will offer some kind of therapy
for children in those situations. Best place to start is your state
family and childrens services. They can tell you what's available.
Honestly, she is not the only one that will need support through
this. You may want to think about getting your wife, yourself and
your daughter into some kind of counseling or training if you will
on how to handle yourselves as well as her.

Know that we are here for you if you need to vent or want advise.

I'll be praying for you all,
Daisy

--- In positivepartnersofs
<mailto:positivepartnersofsurvivors%40yahoogroups.com>
urvivors@yahoogroups.com, "Scott M. Perry"
<owner@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Neal,
> First I want to tell you how sorry I am that your grand-
daughter was
> molested. The fact that she was not penetrated (Raped), does not
really mean
> that she did not experience what happened to her as rape. The
reality of it
> is that someday, that is exactly how she is likely to see it.
Please allow
> her to "name it" in whatever terms she chooses. The danger here is
that if
> she tells someone in the future that she was raped by her Dad, and
anyone
> says to her, "well you were molested, but not raped" she will be
more likely
> to suffer confusion about the incident. She may feel that if
others feel a
> need to point out that it was not rape, then maybe what she
endured "wasn't
> all that serious," and that can stand in the way of recovery.
>
> State laws are different in each state, but I suspect that
your daughter
> will be able to get some form of state help, though I can not be
sure. It's
> all based on income. Are you sure that he didn't also do something
to the
> two boys? I would say don't push the issue with the boys but also
don't
> assume that because "they are his children, that he would not do
that."
>
> I am a childhood incest survivor myself and my step-daughter
was
> molested and raped by two male cousins who lived next door to her
fathers
> house. Because they were underage, the law did very little to
them. But the
> detectives will try to determine if they will be able to build a
case
> against your ex-son-in-law. If they have enough evidence to put
him on trial
> they will, but don't get your hopes too high. Unless you have an
eyewitness
> who has a stellar reputation it will be difficult. Many times
children do
> not want to tell anyone (DA's, detectives etc) what happened to
them AND
> they don't want to feel like they did something to put someone
they love and
> care about in Jail. Many times the legal process is more damaging
to a young
> person than the molestation itself. Your daughter has to do what
is BEST FOR
> HER DAUGHTER - and she must put your grand-daughter's needs first
and
> foremost.
>
> Again, I am so sorry about your grand-daughter. I hope it all
works out
> the way it is supposed to. Counseling may be helpful to your grand-
daughter,
> but she has to be willing to partake of it for it to be helpful.
Sometimes
> people just do not want to deal with this issue until much later
in life. I
> hope you find something helpful in this reply.
>
> Scott
>
> _____
>
> From: positivepartnersofs
<mailto:positivepartnersofsurvivors%40yahoogroups.com>
urvivors@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:positivepartnersofs
<mailto:positivepartnersofsurvivors%40yahoogroups.com>
urvivors@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
deafdogdad
> Sent: 10/31/2006 4:43 AM
> To: positivepartnersofs
<mailto:positivepartnersofsurvivors%40yahoogroups.com>
urvivors@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [POS granddaughter
>
>
>
> We found out recently that our granddaughter was molested by our
ex-son-
> in-law. She wasn't raped thankfully, but molested just the same.
After
> living thru this crap with my wife, it seemed like we were over
the
> worse, now this comes up. Our daughter has 3 children, 2 boys are
my
> son-in-law's. The graddaughter isn't his, tho she thinks he's her
> father. If he goes to jail, will the state help her? If he denies
it,
> will the state take him to court? He's being talked to by a
detective
> today...Thanks for any help!! Neal
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Everyone

Does anyone know of support groups for spouses in the NYC area?

Thank You.