JP

Your post troubles me. I won't go into each area that I take issue
but I will say that without hope we can all 'hang it up.'

Also, I think using the term "cure" to describe a survivors' ability
to walk into the light after a period of darkness is a mistake.
Remember, survivors are on a journey through life just as we are
travelers along the road of, as you quoted C. S. Lewis, painful
learning experiences. Nietzsche tells us, "That which does not
destroy us makes us stronger." Lewis and Nietzsche are both correct,
for partners and survivors, but in order to learn from pain and
emerge stronger we must separate the wheat from the chaff. If we
attempt to carry both our burden is too heavy. Something must be
left behind.

Our prayer should be for discernment because our pain wants to be
carried with us while wisdom is needed -- never needy.
A little known secret in the "idiot's guide to emotional
intelligence" is there are pearls of wisdom that can grow into future
goodness even within an evil act of rape or incest.

I know it's VERY difficult -- almost seems impossible, but there's a
silver-lining there somewhere. The trick is to find it.

Looking...
Pat


--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "simonshek_2000"
<simonshek_2000@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> --- In
positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "danielsherenow"
> <ragman21@> wrote:
> >
> > I think you're speaking of Margaret Mead's "Coming of Age in
> Samoa."
> > As I recall, the idea of young people having sex with older ones
> was
> > to teach them about sex and sexuality, the idea that the old
> should
> > teach the young the secrets of sex.
> > It should be mentioned that Mead's book is highly controversial,
> and
> > disputed by many in the field.
> > As for its relevance to CSA, I'd have to say that the idea of
> > betrayal --as Alisa perceptively points out -- is crucial, and
> > probably counts more than cross-cultural references like "Samoa."
> > When I deal with the effects of CSA in my own life and in my own
> > relationship, I think the horror of betrayal counts more than
> > anything else.
> >
> > Daniel
> >
> > --- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, Alisa
> Balterman
> > <alisabalterman@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello JP -
> > >
> > > I think your analyses of the tribe and it's customs verses what
> > CSA's experience can be understood differently. When I read
about
> > the tribe I thought - they are keeping sexual activity organized
> and
> > controlled by these activities and have an interest in who will
be
> > born through a marriage or pairing. That would be why, I would
> > guess, that they keep it all same sex till that point. It is a
> very
> > interesting solution and I agree that they are comfortable with
it
> > because it is the norm for them.
> > >
> > > Yet, is it really the same context when we look at our
culture?
> > Are incest and rape really about acknowledging the pubescent
> coming
> > of sexual age part of the equation? I think not - as a matter of
> > fact I think that in most, if not all, of these cases the
> experience
> > is more about power for the perpetrator and sadly has very little
> to
> > do with the one they have chosen - perhaps only to the extent
that
> > they represent an opportunity. I believe that the core issue is
> that
> > it is the betrayal, the lack of value the victim preceves that
> both
> > hurts and produces their fear. These are what the challenges are
> for
> > a CSA in my opinion.As far as what we can do as partners in the
> face
> > of this, that is the question. There are a huge percentage of
> people
> > who have experienced this to one degree or another, so the
> > possibility of partnering up with someone who has been abused is
> not
> > a rare experience. I think there is room to consider that both
> the
> > victim/survivor and their partner have a varying degree of
> possibly
> > working it out to become a viable relationship. There are many
> > factors for both parties in this. I believe that we as partners
> need
> > to look at taking care of ourselves and mainly "do no harm" to
the
> > survivor. I also believe that both parties need to acknowledge
> their
> > issues individually first and try to find ways to understand what
> is
> > going on without blaming the other.
> > >
> > > I have to admit that I didn't throughly read your post and am
> > responding to the first section.
> > >
> > > Alisa
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To: positivepartnersofsurvivors@: Brahmadomtao@: Sun, 28 Dec
> > 2008 17:51:35 +0000Subject: [POS Vent- never forget you CAN vent
> > HERE!!!!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you too, Brenda.I was on the bottom for a long time,
> through
> > my own doing, and someignorance about what and how the human
being
> > and our minds and healingwork. It was a long battle coming to sit
> > with myself and realize itwas all lost perspective, lack of
> > experience and walking close to thefringes of such damaged people
> who
> > often are very expressive and findcatharsis in artistic release.
> As
> > an artist and growing up in ahousehold of professional musicians
> and
> > artists, I was accustomed tobeing around damaged souls and didn't
> > know what a damaged soul reallyWAS, except interesting as a
> > personality trait. The human mind is like the human body: bend an
> > elbow the wrong way andit breaks. That is the law of nature. The
> mind
> > has similar limits andpatterns of articulation that have, more
and
> > more, been "mapped" so tospeak, within certain contexts and
> > constructs of understanding bymodern sciences. In S. America some
> > anthropologist explorers in the last 40 or so yearsmade a
> discovery
> > that partially rocked the boat on what we know andunderstand
> > about "normal". There was and is an article in NationalGeographic
> > somewhere about this: a tribe that has existed for whoknows how
> many
> > tens of thousands of years and have a custom that iscompletely
> normal
> > for them. ...When children reach puberty they begin sexually
> > servicing the oldermembers of the same gender as they are, moving
> > into a communal areawith these elders. Both boys and girls become
> > sort of "concubines" fortheir elders, including their own
parents.
> > The boys normally performoral sex on the older men (they're
taught
> to
> > swallow- they are thatspecific and open about the practice), and
> the
> > girls, the same withthe older women. This goes on with the
younger
> > single people- who areFORBIDDEN to interact with each other or
> even
> > kiss or sleep near eachother (they're kept completely separate;
> men
> > in one compound, women inthe other), until a marriage is
arranged.
> > Once two single young peopleare married, they move OUT of the
> > communal areas and into their own"hut", and are considered no
> longer
> > part of this sexual arrangement. When interviewed, and later in
> > follow up interviews and studies, noissues with sexuality, abuse
> or
> > problems with their orientation werefound, nor continued desire
> FOR
> > the "unusual" sexual activities-though no problems WITH the
> practice
> > either. BECAUSE the youth aretaught (and in isolation to the rest
> of
> > the world's ways) that this ishow it is, and NORMAL, there seems
> to
> > be no weirdness emotionally orboundary wise and people accept it
> > simply how it is and a part oflife. Even it is so ingrained in
> their
> > culture that they hardlyrealize it is a form of "sex" as modern
> > society called it, or incest.Their consciousness was/is more
> focused
> > on other parts of their livesand even the relationships that had
> > these events in them (theinterviewers found that the subjects
were
> > quite willing and open totalk about the practice but found it
> strange
> > that the interviewerswere not more interested in something more
> > interesting). As it wastotally normal and the custom, no side
> effects
> > OF ANY KIND even overlong term studies was found in any of the
> tribe
> > members. Simply it wasand IS a way of life, that has NO ILL SIDE
> > EFFECTS.I don't know if anything has been done since with these
> > tribes andpeople- such as follow ups as the rain forests get less
> and
> > thesepeople come more and more into contact with the "modern"
> world
> > andpossibly emigrate some of them into it, what happens
> > then...Interesting eh?Now those of you who are on here wanting
> help
> > and wanting tounderstand a bit more about these paradigms you've
> > stumbled intoprobably in total ignorance, like I did, let that
> above
> > situation andthose tribal ways sit with you a bit and contemplate
> it
> > and thedifference between what YOU believe is right, and WHAT A
> HUMAN
> > BEINGis and HOW our minds and socialization can ARTICULATE in
> healthy
> > ways,as well as what you BELIEVE vs. how the human being works
> > outside ofmorality and ethics and socialization.CSA's and abuse
> > survivors find their ways 100% normal. YOU'RE THE ONEwith the
REAL
> > problem, PoS! You might think I am being cheeky orsarcastic
> somehow,
> > but in closed interviews, one of the biggest thingsthat CSA
> survivors
> > have confessed, when able to be sincere and honest(weather
> > intentionally misleading or ignorant of themselves in theseways),
> is
> > the problem and inability to MATCH UP what THEY experiencedwith
> HOW
> > THE REST OF THE WORLD perceives it and seems to judge it.This
goes
> so
> > deep and is such an issue that this very paradigm itselfis
> > responsible and at the root of MUCH of the mental and
> > emotionalillness that CSA's suffer from. There are variations on
> this
> > theme,just as there are variations on how betrayal and innocence
> can
> > belost, but in the end the common thread is the outlook and
> > perspectiveeveryone around these issues shares in the modern
> world.Of
> > course, as such, CSA's either join modern society and accept
> > thesocial customs, or find a "tribe" so to speak, where they
> > are "normal"and can feel more at home, and less "judged" for what
> is
> > normal to them.Ironically, most CSA's DO seek and find tribes of
a
> > kind, where theycan feel more at home and at ease, same as any of
> us,
> > you or I: placeswhere people have issues that they won't be
> solving
> > any time soon. You can judge it if you like, but it is simply
what
> it
> > is. Schoolchildren don't hang out on the corners with hookers and
> > take a lot ofdrugs, become alcoholics and have alot of random sex
> > with strangers inbathrooms and bars, and similar situations
> (unless
> > of course they areCSA's). THIS IS WHY there is judgmental
> attitudes
> > towards certainforms of "business" and occupations and activities
> in
> > place that havestrong christian backgrounds (I.E. a large part
of,
> > say, the USA).This is partially why we have such moral judgments
> > against, say,hookers in front of elementary schools, to the point
> > that the policewill come escort them to another location (is that
> > legal? So whatgives?)...Perhaps the CSA's are simply a tribe
> > displaced, and the people whoperpetrated the crimes part of
> another
> > kind and similar tribe, and inthe end, it is something somehow we
> all
> > have to find some kind ofpeace with. I don't know. Many options
on
> > the subject!Mental and emotional illness is often equated with
> street
> > people whohave grocery carts and bags and talk to lamp posts. The
> > REALITY isprobably that more than 90% of the mental and
> emotionally
> > ill peoplelook just like everyone else. That is not to say (and
> this
> > is wherethe wheat separates from the chaff when it comes to
people
> > whounderstand what psychology is about vs. what it often seems to
> > imply)that there IS A PERFECT ROLE MODEL OR EXAMPLE OF
> > PERFECTMENTAL/EMOTIONAL HEALTH that is walking around or that we
> all
> > somehow"ought" to strive for or maintain. Psychology isn't about
> > definingwhat THAT is (though that might make for some interesting
> > conceptsthat need to be taken down)... Rather, this simply means,
> > outside ofclinical diagnosis, as people have noticed, a lot of
> people
> > have a lotof issues. BUTmore and more I'd say most of the world's
> > population DOES NOT SUFFERfrom any form of illness, dis-ease or
> > mental/emotional problems. Ofcourse, no one LIKES being
> frustrated,
> > and being frustrated isprobably mostly the same for most of us-
we
> > can't think normal, can'tfind the solution easily, and that often
> > makes us MORE frustrateduntil we take a step back and breathe and
> re-
> > assess, or take some timeout from the situation or issue that is
> > frustrating us. Life isn'talways PLEASANT, as you know- but
mental
> > and emotional illness issuesCAN NOT BE RECOVERED FROM WITH SUCH
> > EXERCISES as intentionally regaining self-perspective. Hence the
> > term "dis-ease" or "illness".The term, "unballance" though DOES
> > imply, say, a pendulum or see-sawthat has gone too far one way-
> and
> > as such, with skill and work, canpossibly BE "ballanced" again.
Of
> > course, if the underlying issuesthat UNballanced it are not
healed
> > and dealt with though, and wereCREATED in the FORMATIVE BONDING
> years
> > or via CSA abuse, forget aboutit; the unballance is there to stay
> as
> > it is a coping and damageprotection mechanism FOR survival.WHERE
> THIS
> > COMES INTO BEARING in situations like you possibly are in,is in
> WHEN
> > is it TREATABLE and when is it MORBIDLY OBSESSIVE and, soto
> > speak, "terminal"?CSA's as a rule, are considered by
> professionals,
> > when you readbetween the lines (especially from authors and
> > professionals with themost experience in dealing with them in the
> > real world and how theytreat them in long term studies and as
> > patients) as being simplypeople who one tries to "help make more
> > comfortable with who they are"and their condition and situation,
> to
> > an extent. THERE IS RARELY aneffort to change anything about
them.
> > Rather, the process is tomonitor the CSA's who seek treatment,
> > for "degrading and deteriorationover time". Then intervention is
> the
> > policy. THE PROCESS IS NOT TO "CURE"!!!! -No more than a
> > concentration camp'sprocess was to cure people of being Jewish
(is
> > that a cure? What isthe illness? a religious choice? An enthnic
> > supposition?).Professionals are not going to try and CURE the CSA
> of
> > BEING a CSA. Itcan't be DONE.... a CSA is a CSA is a CSA is a
CSA.
> > Get it?You can euthanize them and they will still be a CSA, only
> no
> > longerhere with us.There is no cure, and no way to change this
> > path.Only partial healing, partial comfort and hopefully enough
> > skills intime to have peaceful relationships. What kinds of
> > SACRIFICES thispeace comes at...Well you are beginning to
> understand
> > IF YOU ARE HERE.As you don't find the TRUCE agreeable obviously,
> and
> > are lackingsomething you want most likely. TOUGH LUCK, PoS!This
IS
> > the truce, or possibly almost as good as it will get. DON'T TAKE
> IT
> > PERSONAL. -the next one, if you leave, will get the samedeal, no
> > matter what you believe or hear. IN THIS WAY you are no
> morespecial
> > than anyone and anything else- or in that the mind of your
> CSApartner
> > works like ALL the minds we humans are born with work. Gritsdon't
> > take 2 minutes to cook on their stove and 5 minutes for the
restof
> > the world. And broken and damaged means broken and
> damaged.Something
> > is missing and always will be- a happy and safe childhoodand
> youth.
> > Something replaced it- horrors beyond anything you CAN
> > EVERunderstand, unless you too are a CSA. Don't try believing you
> CAN
> > understand it. You won't fool the CSA. They KNOW you didn't
> > experience it and in partthey possibly hate you for this, and
> > everyone who was "luckier" thanthey were.Psychology isn't perhaps
> the
> > avenue for "healing" as it is based ontrial and case studies to
> set
> > the precedent. Unfortunately, for thoseof you seeking hope and
who
> > want facts, as I've said before, this willcome as bad news, as
the
> > outlook -YES, US VERY BLEAK. Very bleak. Ofcourse depending on
the
> > situation and subtle details, the resiliency,duration of abuse,
> the
> > possibly healthy paradigms in place before itall happened, the
> > support structure, the recognition andacknowledgment of it all...
> a
> > myriad of little factors... BUT...THERE ARE ALMOST NO INSTANCES
> > REPORTED AND STUDIED IN MILLIONS ANDMILLIONS OF CASES WHERE A CSA
> > EVER BECOMES SOMEONE OTHER THAN A CSA.That means, while symptoms
> and
> > triggers can slowly ease up over timeand with professional help
> > (should the CSA seek and stick with it),They NEVER completely go
> > away.Not even with positive thinking, and forward healing and
> > alternativemedicine. The CSA often learns to simply NOT talk to
> their
> > spouses orsignificant others and partners about it, and perhaps
> only
> > to atrusted friend- quite possibly someone just like them. This
is
> > verycommon for those of you who have and have been in longer
> > relationshipsor are older and have a CSA partner or know someone
> who
> > had such achildhood/youth. They just learn to cover it up
and "act
> > normal".The bag lady or the guy talking to the post most possibly
> > once wereinvolved in situations like you are involved with now-
> and
> > finallythrough their own issues, destroyed. You see the result of
> the
> > typicalCHOICES of a CSA when you see one of these older street
> > people: whereis their family? Where are their children? Where is
> > their partner,their loved ones, their history, their past?-WHAT
> > happened?Yes it inspires compassion often. And yes it is hard to
> > imagine thatperson you love ending up like that. I'll bet it was
> the
> > same forthese street people and their partners as well though. In
> the
> > end, the river flows to the sea and we return to our sourcedown
> the
> > channel and path we choose and make for ourselves.The CSA, in
> modern
> > society, as A PART of society, has a path carved instone. They
can
> > NEVER feel normal about what happened to them BECAUSEIT ISN'T
> NORMAL
> > OR HEALTHY within the rules of the society they arein, and in
> part,
> > include themselves in. Maybe that is the crux of muchof the
> problem.
> > Even if one were to put CSA's in special homes, whereeveryone
> > including the staff was just like them, ONE OF THE
BIGGESTPROBLEMS
> IS
> > THEY ARE THEIR OWN JUDGE AND JURY.A CSA can not make peace with
> the
> > war that wages within themselves.Blame, guilt, shame, rage,
anger,
> > hate, love, pleasure, pain... somuch that will never settle.
These
> > are the foundations of the symptomsthat most of you experience as
> > PoS's and what brings you to placeslike this looking for help,
> > answers or solutions,-and HOPE.In the end, like you and I and
> anyone,
> > a CSA seek comfort; what isnormal and safe for themselves, what
> their
> > earliest experiences were.Something to give respite. Drugs,
> alcohol,
> > addictions, Drama, noise,thrills, disaster, anything to make the
> pain
> > and static go away for atleast a little while. Anything to bring
> them
> > back to the world as theyfirst began to know it on a regular
> basis,
> > between the ages of 1 and 7years old. If the trauma and abuse was
> > lengthy and deep, between 1 and 13-14years old, then this is what
> > they seek as comfort for the rest oftheir lives. There is, again,
> no
> > cure. There never has been and in our lifetimespossibly never
will
> > be, as not only do the CSA's need help, and thepeople who stay,
> but
> > the very societies where they are born, bred,live in and were
> created
> > in have something in desperate need ofhealing, that is in itself
> very
> > ill. Think about that.----------------------------If you want
> > something, those of you who need a lifeline, to hold ontoand help
> > yourselves, try and find ANYTHING on "EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE"Time-
> > Life (or something similar) has something similar on the
> > subject,maybe even there is an "idiots guide to emotional
> > intelligence"...???(*grin* -I sure could have used one!)...For
> sure
> > there are a few small entry-level publications out there
thatmight
> > open the doors to your mind and being about what you're
involvedin
> > and what you CAN DO to help yourself to regain your
> happiness,peace
> > and integrity. There are also some heavier books on the subjectif
> you
> > desire.Those of you who are in LTR's with CSA's, maybe it works
in
> > yoursituation, or maybe you are more similar to your CSA than you
> > care tobe honest about, or maybe you only know part of their
> sides,
> > and therest they hide for fear of loosing something, as I said
> above.
> > Also,if you are lucky, quite possibly your CSA isn't so damaged
> and
> > maybedoesn't have a serious emotional disorder and mental illness
> > from theevents, while perhaps for all you know everyone else on
> here
> > who isrunning into far worse issues than you and your partner
have
> > everencountered.That might be hope for those of you who come here
> > seeking an outlet.In the end, that is all this is, really- an
> outlet.
> > Rage, scream,type, vent- GET IT OUT!!!!Talk about it, and I'm
sure
> > we'll listen or vent our own feelings andthoughts ourselvesIn
> there,
> > and in the safety of this group- as safe as you can make it,is
> > something that might be condusive for your healing. We can't tell
> you
> > what will happen, nor how your story will work out.I'll bet even
> > those closest to you can't tell you what you will do. WeCAN tell
> you,
> > those of use who have done the research, what the oddsare and
what
> > kinds of typical outcomes are with CSA's, and why theterms co-
> > dependent and enabler exist, and why there are slang terms
> > inpsychology for the various flavors of people who stay involved
> > inrelationships with, say a BPD or Borderline Personality
> > Disordersuffering CSA. We CAN give you possible resources and
> > someinformation, but in the end, the help you get will be the
kind
> > yougive yourself, and seek from real professionals and counselors
> who
> > yousit down with, in person, week after week, to get some
> > perspectivewith and find your own integrity.Try and read the
stuff
> > you find on emotional intelligence, ask thehard questions about
> your
> > mate and their abilities, and try andremember your own dreams and
> > what YOU wanted- the kind of life youwanted to have and once
> dreamed
> > of.I guarantee you only this- a CSA will and can never give you
> > anythingyou dream about, unless you are very, very ill. If they
> > suffernoticeable symptoms to bring you to a place like this, they
> > classifyas "mentally and/or emotionally ill" and even with
> > professional helpfor years- maybe decades, their options for
> recovery
> > are quitepossibly very slim indeed.Or you probably wouldn't be
> > here.Those are the facts for them.For you?Perhaps when you're
> done,
> > you'll be done, and ready for the rest ofthe world again. You'll
> know
> > when you know, and until then, this iswhat you are choosing to
> help
> > you learn something only you understand. I'll bet there is a gift
> in
> > it though, if you survive intact.C.S. Lewis said that pain is the
> > greatest teacher of all- it makes usall that more aware of joy
and
> > the precious, priceless, short gift wehave that isLife.Again, may
> you
> > find your own peace in carrying this torch so bravely.And may
your
> > efforts help light up the dark in this night of thesesides of
> > humanity. My heart goes out with you, and my prayers.I'll be
> thinking
> > about you over the years.-JP
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>