Thank you.


--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, "danielsherenow"
<ragman21@...> wrote:
>
> I think you're speaking of Margaret Mead's "Coming of Age in
Samoa."
> As I recall, the idea of young people having sex with older ones
was
> to teach them about sex and sexuality, the idea that the old
should
> teach the young the secrets of sex.
> It should be mentioned that Mead's book is highly controversial,
and
> disputed by many in the field.
> As for its relevance to CSA, I'd have to say that the idea of
> betrayal --as Alisa perceptively points out -- is crucial, and
> probably counts more than cross-cultural references like "Samoa."
> When I deal with the effects of CSA in my own life and in my own
> relationship, I think the horror of betrayal counts more than
> anything else.
>
> Daniel
>
> --- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, Alisa
Balterman
> <alisabalterman@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello JP -
> >
> > I think your analyses of the tribe and it's customs verses what
> CSA's experience can be understood differently. When I read about
> the tribe I thought - they are keeping sexual activity organized
and
> controlled by these activities and have an interest in who will be
> born through a marriage or pairing. That would be why, I would
> guess, that they keep it all same sex till that point. It is a
very
> interesting solution and I agree that they are comfortable with it
> because it is the norm for them.
> >
> > Yet, is it really the same context when we look at our culture?
> Are incest and rape really about acknowledging the pubescent
coming
> of sexual age part of the equation? I think not - as a matter of
> fact I think that in most, if not all, of these cases the
experience
> is more about power for the perpetrator and sadly has very little
to
> do with the one they have chosen - perhaps only to the extent that
> they represent an opportunity. I believe that the core issue is
that
> it is the betrayal, the lack of value the victim preceves that
both
> hurts and produces their fear. These are what the challenges are
for
> a CSA in my opinion.As far as what we can do as partners in the
face
> of this, that is the question. There are a huge percentage of
people
> who have experienced this to one degree or another, so the
> possibility of partnering up with someone who has been abused is
not
> a rare experience. I think there is room to consider that both
the
> victim/survivor and their partner have a varying degree of
possibly
> working it out to become a viable relationship. There are many
> factors for both parties in this. I believe that we as partners
need
> to look at taking care of ourselves and mainly "do no harm" to the
> survivor. I also believe that both parties need to acknowledge
their
> issues individually first and try to find ways to understand what
is
> going on without blaming the other.
> >
> > I have to admit that I didn't throughly read your post and am
> responding to the first section.
> >
> > Alisa
> >
> >
> >
> > To: positivepartnersofsurvivors@: Brahmadomtao@: Sun, 28 Dec
> 2008 17:51:35 +0000Subject: [POS Vent- never forget you CAN vent
> HERE!!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you too, Brenda.I was on the bottom for a long time,
through
> my own doing, and someignorance about what and how the human being
> and our minds and healingwork. It was a long battle coming to sit
> with myself and realize itwas all lost perspective, lack of
> experience and walking close to thefringes of such damaged people
who
> often are very expressive and findcatharsis in artistic release.
As
> an artist and growing up in ahousehold of professional musicians
and
> artists, I was accustomed tobeing around damaged souls and didn't
> know what a damaged soul reallyWAS, except interesting as a
> personality trait. The human mind is like the human body: bend an
> elbow the wrong way andit breaks. That is the law of nature. The
mind
> has similar limits andpatterns of articulation that have, more and
> more, been "mapped" so tospeak, within certain contexts and
> constructs of understanding bymodern sciences. In S. America some
> anthropologist explorers in the last 40 or so yearsmade a
discovery
> that partially rocked the boat on what we know andunderstand
> about "normal". There was and is an article in NationalGeographic
> somewhere about this: a tribe that has existed for whoknows how
many
> tens of thousands of years and have a custom that iscompletely
normal
> for them. ...When children reach puberty they begin sexually
> servicing the oldermembers of the same gender as they are, moving
> into a communal areawith these elders. Both boys and girls become
> sort of "concubines" fortheir elders, including their own parents.
> The boys normally performoral sex on the older men (they're taught
to
> swallow- they are thatspecific and open about the practice), and
the
> girls, the same withthe older women. This goes on with the younger
> single people- who areFORBIDDEN to interact with each other or
even
> kiss or sleep near eachother (they're kept completely separate;
men
> in one compound, women inthe other), until a marriage is arranged.
> Once two single young peopleare married, they move OUT of the
> communal areas and into their own"hut", and are considered no
longer
> part of this sexual arrangement. When interviewed, and later in
> follow up interviews and studies, noissues with sexuality, abuse
or
> problems with their orientation werefound, nor continued desire
FOR
> the "unusual" sexual activities-though no problems WITH the
practice
> either. BECAUSE the youth aretaught (and in isolation to the rest
of
> the world's ways) that this ishow it is, and NORMAL, there seems
to
> be no weirdness emotionally orboundary wise and people accept it
> simply how it is and a part oflife. Even it is so ingrained in
their
> culture that they hardlyrealize it is a form of "sex" as modern
> society called it, or incest.Their consciousness was/is more
focused
> on other parts of their livesand even the relationships that had
> these events in them (theinterviewers found that the subjects were
> quite willing and open totalk about the practice but found it
strange
> that the interviewerswere not more interested in something more
> interesting). As it wastotally normal and the custom, no side
effects
> OF ANY KIND even overlong term studies was found in any of the
tribe
> members. Simply it wasand IS a way of life, that has NO ILL SIDE
> EFFECTS.I don't know if anything has been done since with these
> tribes andpeople- such as follow ups as the rain forests get less
and
> thesepeople come more and more into contact with the "modern"
world
> andpossibly emigrate some of them into it, what happens
> then...Interesting eh?Now those of you who are on here wanting
help
> and wanting tounderstand a bit more about these paradigms you've
> stumbled intoprobably in total ignorance, like I did, let that
above
> situation andthose tribal ways sit with you a bit and contemplate
it
> and thedifference between what YOU believe is right, and WHAT A
HUMAN
> BEINGis and HOW our minds and socialization can ARTICULATE in
healthy
> ways,as well as what you BELIEVE vs. how the human being works
> outside ofmorality and ethics and socialization.CSA's and abuse
> survivors find their ways 100% normal. YOU'RE THE ONEwith the REAL
> problem, PoS! You might think I am being cheeky orsarcastic
somehow,
> but in closed interviews, one of the biggest thingsthat CSA
survivors
> have confessed, when able to be sincere and honest(weather
> intentionally misleading or ignorant of themselves in theseways),
is
> the problem and inability to MATCH UP what THEY experiencedwith
HOW
> THE REST OF THE WORLD perceives it and seems to judge it.This goes
so
> deep and is such an issue that this very paradigm itselfis
> responsible and at the root of MUCH of the mental and
> emotionalillness that CSA's suffer from. There are variations on
this
> theme,just as there are variations on how betrayal and innocence
can
> belost, but in the end the common thread is the outlook and
> perspectiveeveryone around these issues shares in the modern
world.Of
> course, as such, CSA's either join modern society and accept
> thesocial customs, or find a "tribe" so to speak, where they
> are "normal"and can feel more at home, and less "judged" for what
is
> normal to them.Ironically, most CSA's DO seek and find tribes of a
> kind, where theycan feel more at home and at ease, same as any of
us,
> you or I: placeswhere people have issues that they won't be
solving
> any time soon. You can judge it if you like, but it is simply what
it
> is. Schoolchildren don't hang out on the corners with hookers and
> take a lot ofdrugs, become alcoholics and have alot of random sex
> with strangers inbathrooms and bars, and similar situations
(unless
> of course they areCSA's). THIS IS WHY there is judgmental
attitudes
> towards certainforms of "business" and occupations and activities
in
> place that havestrong christian backgrounds (I.E. a large part of,
> say, the USA).This is partially why we have such moral judgments
> against, say,hookers in front of elementary schools, to the point
> that the policewill come escort them to another location (is that
> legal? So whatgives?)...Perhaps the CSA's are simply a tribe
> displaced, and the people whoperpetrated the crimes part of
another
> kind and similar tribe, and inthe end, it is something somehow we
all
> have to find some kind ofpeace with. I don't know. Many options on
> the subject!Mental and emotional illness is often equated with
street
> people whohave grocery carts and bags and talk to lamp posts. The
> REALITY isprobably that more than 90% of the mental and
emotionally
> ill peoplelook just like everyone else. That is not to say (and
this
> is wherethe wheat separates from the chaff when it comes to people
> whounderstand what psychology is about vs. what it often seems to
> imply)that there IS A PERFECT ROLE MODEL OR EXAMPLE OF
> PERFECTMENTAL/EMOTIONAL HEALTH that is walking around or that we
all
> somehow"ought" to strive for or maintain. Psychology isn't about
> definingwhat THAT is (though that might make for some interesting
> conceptsthat need to be taken down)... Rather, this simply means,
> outside ofclinical diagnosis, as people have noticed, a lot of
people
> have a lotof issues. BUTmore and more I'd say most of the world's
> population DOES NOT SUFFERfrom any form of illness, dis-ease or
> mental/emotional problems. Ofcourse, no one LIKES being
frustrated,
> and being frustrated isprobably mostly the same for most of us- we
> can't think normal, can'tfind the solution easily, and that often
> makes us MORE frustrateduntil we take a step back and breathe and
re-
> assess, or take some timeout from the situation or issue that is
> frustrating us. Life isn'talways PLEASANT, as you know- but mental
> and emotional illness issuesCAN NOT BE RECOVERED FROM WITH SUCH
> EXERCISES as intentionally regaining self-perspective. Hence the
> term "dis-ease" or "illness".The term, "unballance" though DOES
> imply, say, a pendulum or see-sawthat has gone too far one way-
and
> as such, with skill and work, canpossibly BE "ballanced" again. Of
> course, if the underlying issuesthat UNballanced it are not healed
> and dealt with though, and wereCREATED in the FORMATIVE BONDING
years
> or via CSA abuse, forget aboutit; the unballance is there to stay
as
> it is a coping and damageprotection mechanism FOR survival.WHERE
THIS
> COMES INTO BEARING in situations like you possibly are in,is in
WHEN
> is it TREATABLE and when is it MORBIDLY OBSESSIVE and, soto
> speak, "terminal"?CSA's as a rule, are considered by
professionals,
> when you readbetween the lines (especially from authors and
> professionals with themost experience in dealing with them in the
> real world and how theytreat them in long term studies and as
> patients) as being simplypeople who one tries to "help make more
> comfortable with who they are"and their condition and situation,
to
> an extent. THERE IS RARELY aneffort to change anything about them.
> Rather, the process is tomonitor the CSA's who seek treatment,
> for "degrading and deteriorationover time". Then intervention is
the
> policy. THE PROCESS IS NOT TO "CURE"!!!! -No more than a
> concentration camp'sprocess was to cure people of being Jewish (is
> that a cure? What isthe illness? a religious choice? An enthnic
> supposition?).Professionals are not going to try and CURE the CSA
of
> BEING a CSA. Itcan't be DONE.... a CSA is a CSA is a CSA is a CSA.
> Get it?You can euthanize them and they will still be a CSA, only
no
> longerhere with us.There is no cure, and no way to change this
> path.Only partial healing, partial comfort and hopefully enough
> skills intime to have peaceful relationships. What kinds of
> SACRIFICES thispeace comes at...Well you are beginning to
understand
> IF YOU ARE HERE.As you don't find the TRUCE agreeable obviously,
and
> are lackingsomething you want most likely. TOUGH LUCK, PoS!This IS
> the truce, or possibly almost as good as it will get. DON'T TAKE
IT
> PERSONAL. -the next one, if you leave, will get the samedeal, no
> matter what you believe or hear. IN THIS WAY you are no
morespecial
> than anyone and anything else- or in that the mind of your
CSApartner
> works like ALL the minds we humans are born with work. Gritsdon't
> take 2 minutes to cook on their stove and 5 minutes for the restof
> the world. And broken and damaged means broken and
damaged.Something
> is missing and always will be- a happy and safe childhoodand
youth.
> Something replaced it- horrors beyond anything you CAN
> EVERunderstand, unless you too are a CSA. Don't try believing you
CAN
> understand it. You won't fool the CSA. They KNOW you didn't
> experience it and in partthey possibly hate you for this, and
> everyone who was "luckier" thanthey were.Psychology isn't perhaps
the
> avenue for "healing" as it is based ontrial and case studies to
set
> the precedent. Unfortunately, for thoseof you seeking hope and who
> want facts, as I've said before, this willcome as bad news, as the
> outlook -YES, US VERY BLEAK. Very bleak. Ofcourse depending on the
> situation and subtle details, the resiliency,duration of abuse,
the
> possibly healthy paradigms in place before itall happened, the
> support structure, the recognition andacknowledgment of it all...
a
> myriad of little factors... BUT...THERE ARE ALMOST NO INSTANCES
> REPORTED AND STUDIED IN MILLIONS ANDMILLIONS OF CASES WHERE A CSA
> EVER BECOMES SOMEONE OTHER THAN A CSA.That means, while symptoms
and
> triggers can slowly ease up over timeand with professional help
> (should the CSA seek and stick with it),They NEVER completely go
> away.Not even with positive thinking, and forward healing and
> alternativemedicine. The CSA often learns to simply NOT talk to
their
> spouses orsignificant others and partners about it, and perhaps
only
> to atrusted friend- quite possibly someone just like them. This is
> verycommon for those of you who have and have been in longer
> relationshipsor are older and have a CSA partner or know someone
who
> had such achildhood/youth. They just learn to cover it up and "act
> normal".The bag lady or the guy talking to the post most possibly
> once wereinvolved in situations like you are involved with now-
and
> finallythrough their own issues, destroyed. You see the result of
the
> typicalCHOICES of a CSA when you see one of these older street
> people: whereis their family? Where are their children? Where is
> their partner,their loved ones, their history, their past?-WHAT
> happened?Yes it inspires compassion often. And yes it is hard to
> imagine thatperson you love ending up like that. I'll bet it was
the
> same forthese street people and their partners as well though. In
the
> end, the river flows to the sea and we return to our sourcedown
the
> channel and path we choose and make for ourselves.The CSA, in
modern
> society, as A PART of society, has a path carved instone. They can
> NEVER feel normal about what happened to them BECAUSEIT ISN'T
NORMAL
> OR HEALTHY within the rules of the society they arein, and in
part,
> include themselves in. Maybe that is the crux of muchof the
problem.
> Even if one were to put CSA's in special homes, whereeveryone
> including the staff was just like them, ONE OF THE BIGGESTPROBLEMS
IS
> THEY ARE THEIR OWN JUDGE AND JURY.A CSA can not make peace with
the
> war that wages within themselves.Blame, guilt, shame, rage, anger,
> hate, love, pleasure, pain... somuch that will never settle. These
> are the foundations of the symptomsthat most of you experience as
> PoS's and what brings you to placeslike this looking for help,
> answers or solutions,-and HOPE.In the end, like you and I and
anyone,
> a CSA seek comfort; what isnormal and safe for themselves, what
their
> earliest experiences were.Something to give respite. Drugs,
alcohol,
> addictions, Drama, noise,thrills, disaster, anything to make the
pain
> and static go away for atleast a little while. Anything to bring
them
> back to the world as theyfirst began to know it on a regular
basis,
> between the ages of 1 and 7years old. If the trauma and abuse was
> lengthy and deep, between 1 and 13-14years old, then this is what
> they seek as comfort for the rest oftheir lives. There is, again,
no
> cure. There never has been and in our lifetimespossibly never will
> be, as not only do the CSA's need help, and thepeople who stay,
but
> the very societies where they are born, bred,live in and were
created
> in have something in desperate need ofhealing, that is in itself
very
> ill. Think about that.----------------------------If you want
> something, those of you who need a lifeline, to hold ontoand help
> yourselves, try and find ANYTHING on "EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE"Time-
> Life (or something similar) has something similar on the
> subject,maybe even there is an "idiots guide to emotional
> intelligence"...???(*grin* -I sure could have used one!)...For
sure
> there are a few small entry-level publications out there thatmight
> open the doors to your mind and being about what you're involvedin
> and what you CAN DO to help yourself to regain your
happiness,peace
> and integrity. There are also some heavier books on the subjectif
you
> desire.Those of you who are in LTR's with CSA's, maybe it works in
> yoursituation, or maybe you are more similar to your CSA than you
> care tobe honest about, or maybe you only know part of their
sides,
> and therest they hide for fear of loosing something, as I said
above.
> Also,if you are lucky, quite possibly your CSA isn't so damaged
and
> maybedoesn't have a serious emotional disorder and mental illness
> from theevents, while perhaps for all you know everyone else on
here
> who isrunning into far worse issues than you and your partner have
> everencountered.That might be hope for those of you who come here
> seeking an outlet.In the end, that is all this is, really- an
outlet.
> Rage, scream,type, vent- GET IT OUT!!!!Talk about it, and I'm sure
> we'll listen or vent our own feelings andthoughts ourselvesIn
there,
> and in the safety of this group- as safe as you can make it,is
> something that might be condusive for your healing. We can't tell
you
> what will happen, nor how your story will work out.I'll bet even
> those closest to you can't tell you what you will do. WeCAN tell
you,
> those of use who have done the research, what the oddsare and what
> kinds of typical outcomes are with CSA's, and why theterms co-
> dependent and enabler exist, and why there are slang terms
> inpsychology for the various flavors of people who stay involved
> inrelationships with, say a BPD or Borderline Personality
> Disordersuffering CSA. We CAN give you possible resources and
> someinformation, but in the end, the help you get will be the kind
> yougive yourself, and seek from real professionals and counselors
who
> yousit down with, in person, week after week, to get some
> perspectivewith and find your own integrity.Try and read the stuff
> you find on emotional intelligence, ask thehard questions about
your
> mate and their abilities, and try andremember your own dreams and
> what YOU wanted- the kind of life youwanted to have and once
dreamed
> of.I guarantee you only this- a CSA will and can never give you
> anythingyou dream about, unless you are very, very ill. If they
> suffernoticeable symptoms to bring you to a place like this, they
> classifyas "mentally and/or emotionally ill" and even with
> professional helpfor years- maybe decades, their options for
recovery
> are quitepossibly very slim indeed.Or you probably wouldn't be
> here.Those are the facts for them.For you?Perhaps when you're
done,
> you'll be done, and ready for the rest ofthe world again. You'll
know
> when you know, and until then, this iswhat you are choosing to
help
> you learn something only you understand. I'll bet there is a gift
in
> it though, if you survive intact.C.S. Lewis said that pain is the
> greatest teacher of all- it makes usall that more aware of joy and
> the precious, priceless, short gift wehave that isLife.Again, may
you
> find your own peace in carrying this torch so bravely.And may your
> efforts help light up the dark in this night of thesesides of
> humanity. My heart goes out with you, and my prayers.I'll be
thinking
> about you over the years.-JP
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>