I think you're speaking of Margaret Mead's "Coming of Age in Samoa."
As I recall, the idea of young people having sex with older ones was
to teach them about sex and sexuality, the idea that the old should
teach the young the secrets of sex.
It should be mentioned that Mead's book is highly controversial, and
disputed by many in the field.
As for its relevance to CSA, I'd have to say that the idea of
betrayal --as Alisa perceptively points out -- is crucial, and
probably counts more than cross-cultural references like "Samoa."
When I deal with the effects of CSA in my own life and in my own
relationship, I think the horror of betrayal counts more than
anything else.

Daniel

--- In positivepartnersofsurvivors@yahoogroups.com, Alisa Balterman
<alisabalterman@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hello JP -
>
> I think your analyses of the tribe and it's customs verses what
CSA's experience can be understood differently. When I read about
the tribe I thought - they are keeping sexual activity organized and
controlled by these activities and have an interest in who will be
born through a marriage or pairing. That would be why, I would
guess, that they keep it all same sex till that point. It is a very
interesting solution and I agree that they are comfortable with it
because it is the norm for them.
>
> Yet, is it really the same context when we look at our culture?
Are incest and rape really about acknowledging the pubescent coming
of sexual age part of the equation? I think not - as a matter of
fact I think that in most, if not all, of these cases the experience
is more about power for the perpetrator and sadly has very little to
do with the one they have chosen - perhaps only to the extent that
they represent an opportunity. I believe that the core issue is that
it is the betrayal, the lack of value the victim preceves that both
hurts and produces their fear. These are what the challenges are for
a CSA in my opinion.As far as what we can do as partners in the face
of this, that is the question. There are a huge percentage of people
who have experienced this to one degree or another, so the
possibility of partnering up with someone who has been abused is not
a rare experience. I think there is room to consider that both the
victim/survivor and their partner have a varying degree of possibly
working it out to become a viable relationship. There are many
factors for both parties in this. I believe that we as partners need
to look at taking care of ourselves and mainly "do no harm" to the
survivor. I also believe that both parties need to acknowledge their
issues individually first and try to find ways to understand what is
going on without blaming the other.
>
> I have to admit that I didn't throughly read your post and am
responding to the first section.
>
> Alisa
>
>
>
> To: positivepartnersofsurvivors@...: Brahmadomtao@...: Sun, 28 Dec
2008 17:51:35 +0000Subject: [POS Vent- never forget you CAN vent
HERE!!!!
>
>
>
> Thank you too, Brenda.I was on the bottom for a long time, through
my own doing, and someignorance about what and how the human being
and our minds and healingwork. It was a long battle coming to sit
with myself and realize itwas all lost perspective, lack of
experience and walking close to thefringes of such damaged people who
often are very expressive and findcatharsis in artistic release. As
an artist and growing up in ahousehold of professional musicians and
artists, I was accustomed tobeing around damaged souls and didn't
know what a damaged soul reallyWAS, except interesting as a
personality trait. The human mind is like the human body: bend an
elbow the wrong way andit breaks. That is the law of nature. The mind
has similar limits andpatterns of articulation that have, more and
more, been "mapped" so tospeak, within certain contexts and
constructs of understanding bymodern sciences. In S. America some
anthropologist explorers in the last 40 or so yearsmade a discovery
that partially rocked the boat on what we know andunderstand
about "normal". There was and is an article in NationalGeographic
somewhere about this: a tribe that has existed for whoknows how many
tens of thousands of years and have a custom that iscompletely normal
for them. ...When children reach puberty they begin sexually
servicing the oldermembers of the same gender as they are, moving
into a communal areawith these elders. Both boys and girls become
sort of "concubines" fortheir elders, including their own parents.
The boys normally performoral sex on the older men (they're taught to
swallow- they are thatspecific and open about the practice), and the
girls, the same withthe older women. This goes on with the younger
single people- who areFORBIDDEN to interact with each other or even
kiss or sleep near eachother (they're kept completely separate; men
in one compound, women inthe other), until a marriage is arranged.
Once two single young peopleare married, they move OUT of the
communal areas and into their own"hut", and are considered no longer
part of this sexual arrangement. When interviewed, and later in
follow up interviews and studies, noissues with sexuality, abuse or
problems with their orientation werefound, nor continued desire FOR
the "unusual" sexual activities-though no problems WITH the practice
either. BECAUSE the youth aretaught (and in isolation to the rest of
the world's ways) that this ishow it is, and NORMAL, there seems to
be no weirdness emotionally orboundary wise and people accept it
simply how it is and a part oflife. Even it is so ingrained in their
culture that they hardlyrealize it is a form of "sex" as modern
society called it, or incest.Their consciousness was/is more focused
on other parts of their livesand even the relationships that had
these events in them (theinterviewers found that the subjects were
quite willing and open totalk about the practice but found it strange
that the interviewerswere not more interested in something more
interesting). As it wastotally normal and the custom, no side effects
OF ANY KIND even overlong term studies was found in any of the tribe
members. Simply it wasand IS a way of life, that has NO ILL SIDE
EFFECTS.I don't know if anything has been done since with these
tribes andpeople- such as follow ups as the rain forests get less and
thesepeople come more and more into contact with the "modern" world
andpossibly emigrate some of them into it, what happens
then...Interesting eh?Now those of you who are on here wanting help
and wanting tounderstand a bit more about these paradigms you've
stumbled intoprobably in total ignorance, like I did, let that above
situation andthose tribal ways sit with you a bit and contemplate it
and thedifference between what YOU believe is right, and WHAT A HUMAN
BEINGis and HOW our minds and socialization can ARTICULATE in healthy
ways,as well as what you BELIEVE vs. how the human being works
outside ofmorality and ethics and socialization.CSA's and abuse
survivors find their ways 100% normal. YOU'RE THE ONEwith the REAL
problem, PoS! You might think I am being cheeky orsarcastic somehow,
but in closed interviews, one of the biggest thingsthat CSA survivors
have confessed, when able to be sincere and honest(weather
intentionally misleading or ignorant of themselves in theseways), is
the problem and inability to MATCH UP what THEY experiencedwith HOW
THE REST OF THE WORLD perceives it and seems to judge it.This goes so
deep and is such an issue that this very paradigm itselfis
responsible and at the root of MUCH of the mental and
emotionalillness that CSA's suffer from. There are variations on this
theme,just as there are variations on how betrayal and innocence can
belost, but in the end the common thread is the outlook and
perspectiveeveryone around these issues shares in the modern world.Of
course, as such, CSA's either join modern society and accept
thesocial customs, or find a "tribe" so to speak, where they
are "normal"and can feel more at home, and less "judged" for what is
normal to them.Ironically, most CSA's DO seek and find tribes of a
kind, where theycan feel more at home and at ease, same as any of us,
you or I: placeswhere people have issues that they won't be solving
any time soon. You can judge it if you like, but it is simply what it
is. Schoolchildren don't hang out on the corners with hookers and
take a lot ofdrugs, become alcoholics and have alot of random sex
with strangers inbathrooms and bars, and similar situations (unless
of course they areCSA's). THIS IS WHY there is judgmental attitudes
towards certainforms of "business" and occupations and activities in
place that havestrong christian backgrounds (I.E. a large part of,
say, the USA).This is partially why we have such moral judgments
against, say,hookers in front of elementary schools, to the point
that the policewill come escort them to another location (is that
legal? So whatgives?)...Perhaps the CSA's are simply a tribe
displaced, and the people whoperpetrated the crimes part of another
kind and similar tribe, and inthe end, it is something somehow we all
have to find some kind ofpeace with. I don't know. Many options on
the subject!Mental and emotional illness is often equated with street
people whohave grocery carts and bags and talk to lamp posts. The
REALITY isprobably that more than 90% of the mental and emotionally
ill peoplelook just like everyone else. That is not to say (and this
is wherethe wheat separates from the chaff when it comes to people
whounderstand what psychology is about vs. what it often seems to
imply)that there IS A PERFECT ROLE MODEL OR EXAMPLE OF
PERFECTMENTAL/EMOTIONAL HEALTH that is walking around or that we all
somehow"ought" to strive for or maintain. Psychology isn't about
definingwhat THAT is (though that might make for some interesting
conceptsthat need to be taken down)... Rather, this simply means,
outside ofclinical diagnosis, as people have noticed, a lot of people
have a lotof issues. BUTmore and more I'd say most of the world's
population DOES NOT SUFFERfrom any form of illness, dis-ease or
mental/emotional problems. Ofcourse, no one LIKES being frustrated,
and being frustrated isprobably mostly the same for most of us- we
can't think normal, can'tfind the solution easily, and that often
makes us MORE frustrateduntil we take a step back and breathe and re-
assess, or take some timeout from the situation or issue that is
frustrating us. Life isn'talways PLEASANT, as you know- but mental
and emotional illness issuesCAN NOT BE RECOVERED FROM WITH SUCH
EXERCISES as intentionally regaining self-perspective. Hence the
term "dis-ease" or "illness".The term, "unballance" though DOES
imply, say, a pendulum or see-sawthat has gone too far one way- and
as such, with skill and work, canpossibly BE "ballanced" again. Of
course, if the underlying issuesthat UNballanced it are not healed
and dealt with though, and wereCREATED in the FORMATIVE BONDING years
or via CSA abuse, forget aboutit; the unballance is there to stay as
it is a coping and damageprotection mechanism FOR survival.WHERE THIS
COMES INTO BEARING in situations like you possibly are in,is in WHEN
is it TREATABLE and when is it MORBIDLY OBSESSIVE and, soto
speak, "terminal"?CSA's as a rule, are considered by professionals,
when you readbetween the lines (especially from authors and
professionals with themost experience in dealing with them in the
real world and how theytreat them in long term studies and as
patients) as being simplypeople who one tries to "help make more
comfortable with who they are"and their condition and situation, to
an extent. THERE IS RARELY aneffort to change anything about them.
Rather, the process is tomonitor the CSA's who seek treatment,
for "degrading and deteriorationover time". Then intervention is the
policy. THE PROCESS IS NOT TO "CURE"!!!! -No more than a
concentration camp'sprocess was to cure people of being Jewish (is
that a cure? What isthe illness? a religious choice? An enthnic
supposition?).Professionals are not going to try and CURE the CSA of
BEING a CSA. Itcan't be DONE.... a CSA is a CSA is a CSA is a CSA.
Get it?You can euthanize them and they will still be a CSA, only no
longerhere with us.There is no cure, and no way to change this
path.Only partial healing, partial comfort and hopefully enough
skills intime to have peaceful relationships. What kinds of
SACRIFICES thispeace comes at...Well you are beginning to understand
IF YOU ARE HERE.As you don't find the TRUCE agreeable obviously, and
are lackingsomething you want most likely. TOUGH LUCK, PoS!This IS
the truce, or possibly almost as good as it will get. DON'T TAKE IT
PERSONAL. -the next one, if you leave, will get the samedeal, no
matter what you believe or hear. IN THIS WAY you are no morespecial
than anyone and anything else- or in that the mind of your CSApartner
works like ALL the minds we humans are born with work. Gritsdon't
take 2 minutes to cook on their stove and 5 minutes for the restof
the world. And broken and damaged means broken and damaged.Something
is missing and always will be- a happy and safe childhoodand youth.
Something replaced it- horrors beyond anything you CAN
EVERunderstand, unless you too are a CSA. Don't try believing you CAN
understand it. You won't fool the CSA. They KNOW you didn't
experience it and in partthey possibly hate you for this, and
everyone who was "luckier" thanthey were.Psychology isn't perhaps the
avenue for "healing" as it is based ontrial and case studies to set
the precedent. Unfortunately, for thoseof you seeking hope and who
want facts, as I've said before, this willcome as bad news, as the
outlook -YES, US VERY BLEAK. Very bleak. Ofcourse depending on the
situation and subtle details, the resiliency,duration of abuse, the
possibly healthy paradigms in place before itall happened, the
support structure, the recognition andacknowledgment of it all... a
myriad of little factors... BUT...THERE ARE ALMOST NO INSTANCES
REPORTED AND STUDIED IN MILLIONS ANDMILLIONS OF CASES WHERE A CSA
EVER BECOMES SOMEONE OTHER THAN A CSA.That means, while symptoms and
triggers can slowly ease up over timeand with professional help
(should the CSA seek and stick with it),They NEVER completely go
away.Not even with positive thinking, and forward healing and
alternativemedicine. The CSA often learns to simply NOT talk to their
spouses orsignificant others and partners about it, and perhaps only
to atrusted friend- quite possibly someone just like them. This is
verycommon for those of you who have and have been in longer
relationshipsor are older and have a CSA partner or know someone who
had such achildhood/youth. They just learn to cover it up and "act
normal".The bag lady or the guy talking to the post most possibly
once wereinvolved in situations like you are involved with now- and
finallythrough their own issues, destroyed. You see the result of the
typicalCHOICES of a CSA when you see one of these older street
people: whereis their family? Where are their children? Where is
their partner,their loved ones, their history, their past?-WHAT
happened?Yes it inspires compassion often. And yes it is hard to
imagine thatperson you love ending up like that. I'll bet it was the
same forthese street people and their partners as well though. In the
end, the river flows to the sea and we return to our sourcedown the
channel and path we choose and make for ourselves.The CSA, in modern
society, as A PART of society, has a path carved instone. They can
NEVER feel normal about what happened to them BECAUSEIT ISN'T NORMAL
OR HEALTHY within the rules of the society they arein, and in part,
include themselves in. Maybe that is the crux of muchof the problem.
Even if one were to put CSA's in special homes, whereeveryone
including the staff was just like them, ONE OF THE BIGGESTPROBLEMS IS
THEY ARE THEIR OWN JUDGE AND JURY.A CSA can not make peace with the
war that wages within themselves.Blame, guilt, shame, rage, anger,
hate, love, pleasure, pain... somuch that will never settle. These
are the foundations of the symptomsthat most of you experience as
PoS's and what brings you to placeslike this looking for help,
answers or solutions,-and HOPE.In the end, like you and I and anyone,
a CSA seek comfort; what isnormal and safe for themselves, what their
earliest experiences were.Something to give respite. Drugs, alcohol,
addictions, Drama, noise,thrills, disaster, anything to make the pain
and static go away for atleast a little while. Anything to bring them
back to the world as theyfirst began to know it on a regular basis,
between the ages of 1 and 7years old. If the trauma and abuse was
lengthy and deep, between 1 and 13-14years old, then this is what
they seek as comfort for the rest oftheir lives. There is, again, no
cure. There never has been and in our lifetimespossibly never will
be, as not only do the CSA's need help, and thepeople who stay, but
the very societies where they are born, bred,live in and were created
in have something in desperate need ofhealing, that is in itself very
ill. Think about that.----------------------------If you want
something, those of you who need a lifeline, to hold ontoand help
yourselves, try and find ANYTHING on "EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE"Time-
Life (or something similar) has something similar on the
subject,maybe even there is an "idiots guide to emotional
intelligence"...???(*grin* -I sure could have used one!)...For sure
there are a few small entry-level publications out there thatmight
open the doors to your mind and being about what you're involvedin
and what you CAN DO to help yourself to regain your happiness,peace
and integrity. There are also some heavier books on the subjectif you
desire.Those of you who are in LTR's with CSA's, maybe it works in
yoursituation, or maybe you are more similar to your CSA than you
care tobe honest about, or maybe you only know part of their sides,
and therest they hide for fear of loosing something, as I said above.
Also,if you are lucky, quite possibly your CSA isn't so damaged and
maybedoesn't have a serious emotional disorder and mental illness
from theevents, while perhaps for all you know everyone else on here
who isrunning into far worse issues than you and your partner have
everencountered.That might be hope for those of you who come here
seeking an outlet.In the end, that is all this is, really- an outlet.
Rage, scream,type, vent- GET IT OUT!!!!Talk about it, and I'm sure
we'll listen or vent our own feelings andthoughts ourselvesIn there,
and in the safety of this group- as safe as you can make it,is
something that might be condusive for your healing. We can't tell you
what will happen, nor how your story will work out.I'll bet even
those closest to you can't tell you what you will do. WeCAN tell you,
those of use who have done the research, what the oddsare and what
kinds of typical outcomes are with CSA's, and why theterms co-
dependent and enabler exist, and why there are slang terms
inpsychology for the various flavors of people who stay involved
inrelationships with, say a BPD or Borderline Personality
Disordersuffering CSA. We CAN give you possible resources and
someinformation, but in the end, the help you get will be the kind
yougive yourself, and seek from real professionals and counselors who
yousit down with, in person, week after week, to get some
perspectivewith and find your own integrity.Try and read the stuff
you find on emotional intelligence, ask thehard questions about your
mate and their abilities, and try andremember your own dreams and
what YOU wanted- the kind of life youwanted to have and once dreamed
of.I guarantee you only this- a CSA will and can never give you
anythingyou dream about, unless you are very, very ill. If they
suffernoticeable symptoms to bring you to a place like this, they
classifyas "mentally and/or emotionally ill" and even with
professional helpfor years- maybe decades, their options for recovery
are quitepossibly very slim indeed.Or you probably wouldn't be
here.Those are the facts for them.For you?Perhaps when you're done,
you'll be done, and ready for the rest ofthe world again. You'll know
when you know, and until then, this iswhat you are choosing to help
you learn something only you understand. I'll bet there is a gift in
it though, if you survive intact.C.S. Lewis said that pain is the
greatest teacher of all- it makes usall that more aware of joy and
the precious, priceless, short gift wehave that isLife.Again, may you
find your own peace in carrying this torch so bravely.And may your
efforts help light up the dark in this night of thesesides of
humanity. My heart goes out with you, and my prayers.I'll be thinking
about you over the years.-JP
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