Hello JP -

I think your analyses of the tribe and it's customs verses what CSA's experience
can be understood differently. When I read about the tribe I thought - they are
keeping sexual activity organized and controlled by these activities and have an
interest in who will be born through a marriage or pairing. That would be why,
I would guess, that they keep it all same sex till that point. It is a very
interesting solution and I agree that they are comfortable with it because it is
the norm for them.

Yet, is it really the same context when we look at our culture? Are incest and
rape really about acknowledging the pubescent coming of sexual age part of the
equation? I think not - as a matter of fact I think that in most, if not all,
of these cases the experience is more about power for the perpetrator and sadly
has very little to do with the one they have chosen - perhaps only to the extent
that they represent an opportunity. I believe that the core issue is that it is
the betrayal, the lack of value the victim preceves that both hurts and produces
their fear. These are what the challenges are for a CSA in my opinion.As far as
what we can do as partners in the face of this, that is the question. There are
a huge percentage of people who have experienced this to one degree or another,
so the possibility of partnering up with someone who has been abused is not a
rare experience. I think there is room to consider that both the
victim/survivor and their partner have a varying degree of possibly working it
out to become a viable relationship. There are many factors for both parties in
this. I believe that we as partners need to look at taking care of ourselves
and mainly "do no harm" to the survivor. I also believe that both parties need
to acknowledge their issues individually first and try to find ways to
understand what is going on without blaming the other.

I have to admit that I didn't throughly read your post and am responding to the
first section.

Alisa



To: positivepartnersofsurvivors@...:
Brahmadomtao@...: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:51:35 +0000Subject: [POS Vent-
never forget you CAN vent HERE!!!!



Thank you too, Brenda.I was on the bottom for a long time, through my own doing,
and someignorance about what and how the human being and our minds and
healingwork. It was a long battle coming to sit with myself and realize itwas
all lost perspective, lack of experience and walking close to thefringes of such
damaged people who often are very expressive and findcatharsis in artistic
release. As an artist and growing up in ahousehold of professional musicians and
artists, I was accustomed tobeing around damaged souls and didn't know what a
damaged soul reallyWAS, except interesting as a personality trait. The human
mind is like the human body: bend an elbow the wrong way andit breaks. That is
the law of nature. The mind has similar limits andpatterns of articulation that
have, more and more, been "mapped" so tospeak, within certain contexts and
constructs of understanding bymodern sciences. In S. America some anthropologist
explorers in the last 40 or so yearsmade a discovery that partially rocked the
boat on what we know andunderstand about "normal". There was and is an article
in NationalGeographic somewhere about this: a tribe that has existed for
whoknows how many tens of thousands of years and have a custom that iscompletely
normal for them. ...When children reach puberty they begin sexually servicing
the oldermembers of the same gender as they are, moving into a communal areawith
these elders. Both boys and girls become sort of "concubines" fortheir elders,
including their own parents. The boys normally performoral sex on the older men
(they're taught to swallow- they are thatspecific and open about the practice),
and the girls, the same withthe older women. This goes on with the younger
single people- who areFORBIDDEN to interact with each other or even kiss or
sleep near eachother (they're kept completely separate; men in one compound,
women inthe other), until a marriage is arranged. Once two single young
peopleare married, they move OUT of the communal areas and into their own"hut",
and are considered no longer part of this sexual arrangement. When interviewed,
and later in follow up interviews and studies, noissues with sexuality, abuse or
problems with their orientation werefound, nor continued desire FOR the
"unusual" sexual activities-though no problems WITH the practice either. BECAUSE
the youth aretaught (and in isolation to the rest of the world's ways) that this
ishow it is, and NORMAL, there seems to be no weirdness emotionally orboundary
wise and people accept it simply how it is and a part oflife. Even it is so
ingrained in their culture that they hardlyrealize it is a form of "sex" as
modern society called it, or incest.Their consciousness was/is more focused on
other parts of their livesand even the relationships that had these events in
them (theinterviewers found that the subjects were quite willing and open totalk
about the practice but found it strange that the interviewerswere not more
interested in something more interesting). As it wastotally normal and the
custom, no side effects OF ANY KIND even overlong term studies was found in any
of the tribe members. Simply it wasand IS a way of life, that has NO ILL SIDE
EFFECTS.I don't know if anything has been done since with these tribes
andpeople- such as follow ups as the rain forests get less and thesepeople come
more and more into contact with the "modern" world andpossibly emigrate some of
them into it, what happens then...Interesting eh?Now those of you who are on
here wanting help and wanting tounderstand a bit more about these paradigms
you've stumbled intoprobably in total ignorance, like I did, let that above
situation andthose tribal ways sit with you a bit and contemplate it and
thedifference between what YOU believe is right, and WHAT A HUMAN BEINGis and
HOW our minds and socialization can ARTICULATE in healthy ways,as well as what
you BELIEVE vs. how the human being works outside ofmorality and ethics and
socialization.CSA's and abuse survivors find their ways 100% normal. YOU'RE THE
ONEwith the REAL problem, PoS! You might think I am being cheeky orsarcastic
somehow, but in closed interviews, one of the biggest thingsthat CSA survivors
have confessed, when able to be sincere and honest(weather intentionally
misleading or ignorant of themselves in theseways), is the problem and inability
to MATCH UP what THEY experiencedwith HOW THE REST OF THE WORLD perceives it and
seems to judge it.This goes so deep and is such an issue that this very paradigm
itselfis responsible and at the root of MUCH of the mental and emotionalillness
that CSA's suffer from. There are variations on this theme,just as there are
variations on how betrayal and innocence can belost, but in the end the common
thread is the outlook and perspectiveeveryone around these issues shares in the
modern world.Of course, as such, CSA's either join modern society and accept
thesocial customs, or find a "tribe" so to speak, where they are "normal"and can
feel more at home, and less "judged" for what is normal to them.Ironically, most
CSA's DO seek and find tribes of a kind, where theycan feel more at home and at
ease, same as any of us, you or I: placeswhere people have issues that they
won't be solving any time soon. You can judge it if you like, but it is simply
what it is. Schoolchildren don't hang out on the corners with hookers and take a
lot ofdrugs, become alcoholics and have alot of random sex with strangers
inbathrooms and bars, and similar situations (unless of course they areCSA's).
THIS IS WHY there is judgmental attitudes towards certainforms of "business" and
occupations and activities in place that havestrong christian backgrounds (I.E.
a large part of, say, the USA).This is partially why we have such moral
judgments against, say,hookers in front of elementary schools, to the point that
the policewill come escort them to another location (is that legal? So
whatgives?)...Perhaps the CSA's are simply a tribe displaced, and the people
whoperpetrated the crimes part of another kind and similar tribe, and inthe end,
it is something somehow we all have to find some kind ofpeace with. I don't
know. Many options on the subject!Mental and emotional illness is often equated
with street people whohave grocery carts and bags and talk to lamp posts. The
REALITY isprobably that more than 90% of the mental and emotionally ill
peoplelook just like everyone else. That is not to say (and this is wherethe
wheat separates from the chaff when it comes to people whounderstand what
psychology is about vs. what it often seems to imply)that there IS A PERFECT
ROLE MODEL OR EXAMPLE OF PERFECTMENTAL/EMOTIONAL HEALTH that is walking around
or that we all somehow"ought" to strive for or maintain. Psychology isn't about
definingwhat THAT is (though that might make for some interesting conceptsthat
need to be taken down)... Rather, this simply means, outside ofclinical
diagnosis, as people have noticed, a lot of people have a lotof issues. BUTmore
and more I'd say most of the world's population DOES NOT SUFFERfrom any form of
illness, dis-ease or mental/emotional problems. Ofcourse, no one LIKES being
frustrated, and being frustrated isprobably mostly the same for most of us- we
can't think normal, can'tfind the solution easily, and that often makes us MORE
frustrateduntil we take a step back and breathe and re-assess, or take some
timeout from the situation or issue that is frustrating us. Life isn'talways
PLEASANT, as you know- but mental and emotional illness issuesCAN NOT BE
RECOVERED FROM WITH SUCH EXERCISES as intentionally regaining self-perspective.
Hence the term "dis-ease" or "illness".The term, "unballance" though DOES imply,
say, a pendulum or see-sawthat has gone too far one way- and as such, with skill
and work, canpossibly BE "ballanced" again. Of course, if the underlying
issuesthat UNballanced it are not healed and dealt with though, and wereCREATED
in the FORMATIVE BONDING years or via CSA abuse, forget aboutit; the unballance
is there to stay as it is a coping and damageprotection mechanism FOR
survival.WHERE THIS COMES INTO BEARING in situations like you possibly are in,is
in WHEN is it TREATABLE and when is it MORBIDLY OBSESSIVE and, soto speak,
"terminal"?CSA's as a rule, are considered by professionals, when you
readbetween the lines (especially from authors and professionals with themost
experience in dealing with them in the real world and how theytreat them in long
term studies and as patients) as being simplypeople who one tries to "help make
more comfortable with who they are"and their condition and situation, to an
extent. THERE IS RARELY aneffort to change anything about them. Rather, the
process is tomonitor the CSA's who seek treatment, for "degrading and
deteriorationover time". Then intervention is the policy. THE PROCESS IS NOT TO
"CURE"!!!! -No more than a concentration camp'sprocess was to cure people of
being Jewish (is that a cure? What isthe illness? a religious choice? An enthnic
supposition?).Professionals are not going to try and CURE the CSA of BEING a
CSA. Itcan't be DONE.... a CSA is a CSA is a CSA is a CSA. Get it?You can
euthanize them and they will still be a CSA, only no longerhere with us.There is
no cure, and no way to change this path.Only partial healing, partial comfort
and hopefully enough skills intime to have peaceful relationships. What kinds of
SACRIFICES thispeace comes at...Well you are beginning to understand IF YOU ARE
HERE.As you don't find the TRUCE agreeable obviously, and are lackingsomething
you want most likely. TOUGH LUCK, PoS!This IS the truce, or possibly almost as
good as it will get. DON'T TAKE IT PERSONAL. -the next one, if you leave, will
get the samedeal, no matter what you believe or hear. IN THIS WAY you are no
morespecial than anyone and anything else- or in that the mind of your
CSApartner works like ALL the minds we humans are born with work. Gritsdon't
take 2 minutes to cook on their stove and 5 minutes for the restof the world.
And broken and damaged means broken and damaged.Something is missing and always
will be- a happy and safe childhoodand youth. Something replaced it- horrors
beyond anything you CAN EVERunderstand, unless you too are a CSA. Don't try
believing you CAN understand it. You won't fool the CSA. They KNOW you didn't
experience it and in partthey possibly hate you for this, and everyone who was
"luckier" thanthey were.Psychology isn't perhaps the avenue for "healing" as it
is based ontrial and case studies to set the precedent. Unfortunately, for
thoseof you seeking hope and who want facts, as I've said before, this willcome
as bad news, as the outlook -YES, US VERY BLEAK. Very bleak. Ofcourse depending
on the situation and subtle details, the resiliency,duration of abuse, the
possibly healthy paradigms in place before itall happened, the support
structure, the recognition andacknowledgment of it all... a myriad of little
factors... BUT...THERE ARE ALMOST NO INSTANCES REPORTED AND STUDIED IN MILLIONS
ANDMILLIONS OF CASES WHERE A CSA EVER BECOMES SOMEONE OTHER THAN A CSA.That
means, while symptoms and triggers can slowly ease up over timeand with
professional help (should the CSA seek and stick with it),They NEVER completely
go away.Not even with positive thinking, and forward healing and
alternativemedicine. The CSA often learns to simply NOT talk to their spouses
orsignificant others and partners about it, and perhaps only to atrusted friend-
quite possibly someone just like them. This is verycommon for those of you who
have and have been in longer relationshipsor are older and have a CSA partner or
know someone who had such achildhood/youth. They just learn to cover it up and
"act normal".The bag lady or the guy talking to the post most possibly once
wereinvolved in situations like you are involved with now- and finallythrough
their own issues, destroyed. You see the result of the typicalCHOICES of a CSA
when you see one of these older street people: whereis their family? Where are
their children? Where is their partner,their loved ones, their history, their
past?-WHAT happened?Yes it inspires compassion often. And yes it is hard to
imagine thatperson you love ending up like that. I'll bet it was the same
forthese street people and their partners as well though. In the end, the river
flows to the sea and we return to our sourcedown the channel and path we choose
and make for ourselves.The CSA, in modern society, as A PART of society, has a
path carved instone. They can NEVER feel normal about what happened to them
BECAUSEIT ISN'T NORMAL OR HEALTHY within the rules of the society they arein,
and in part, include themselves in. Maybe that is the crux of muchof the
problem. Even if one were to put CSA's in special homes, whereeveryone including
the staff was just like them, ONE OF THE BIGGESTPROBLEMS IS THEY ARE THEIR OWN
JUDGE AND JURY.A CSA can not make peace with the war that wages within
themselves.Blame, guilt, shame, rage, anger, hate, love, pleasure, pain...
somuch that will never settle. These are the foundations of the symptomsthat
most of you experience as PoS's and what brings you to placeslike this looking
for help, answers or solutions,-and HOPE.In the end, like you and I and anyone,
a CSA seek comfort; what isnormal and safe for themselves, what their earliest
experiences were.Something to give respite. Drugs, alcohol, addictions, Drama,
noise,thrills, disaster, anything to make the pain and static go away for
atleast a little while. Anything to bring them back to the world as theyfirst
began to know it on a regular basis, between the ages of 1 and 7years old. If
the trauma and abuse was lengthy and deep, between 1 and 13-14years old, then
this is what they seek as comfort for the rest oftheir lives. There is, again,
no cure. There never has been and in our lifetimespossibly never will be, as not
only do the CSA's need help, and thepeople who stay, but the very societies
where they are born, bred,live in and were created in have something in
desperate need ofhealing, that is in itself very ill. Think about
that.----------------------------If you want something, those of you who need a
lifeline, to hold ontoand help yourselves, try and find ANYTHING on "EMOTIONAL
INTELLIGENCE"Time-Life (or something similar) has something similar on the
subject,maybe even there is an "idiots guide to emotional
intelligence"...???(*grin* -I sure could have used one!)...For sure there are a
few small entry-level publications out there thatmight open the doors to your
mind and being about what you're involvedin and what you CAN DO to help yourself
to regain your happiness,peace and integrity. There are also some heavier books
on the subjectif you desire.Those of you who are in LTR's with CSA's, maybe it
works in yoursituation, or maybe you are more similar to your CSA than you care
tobe honest about, or maybe you only know part of their sides, and therest they
hide for fear of loosing something, as I said above. Also,if you are lucky,
quite possibly your CSA isn't so damaged and maybedoesn't have a serious
emotional disorder and mental illness from theevents, while perhaps for all you
know everyone else on here who isrunning into far worse issues than you and your
partner have everencountered.That might be hope for those of you who come here
seeking an outlet.In the end, that is all this is, really- an outlet. Rage,
scream,type, vent- GET IT OUT!!!!Talk about it, and I'm sure we'll listen or
vent our own feelings andthoughts ourselvesIn there, and in the safety of this
group- as safe as you can make it,is something that might be condusive for your
healing. We can't tell you what will happen, nor how your story will work
out.I'll bet even those closest to you can't tell you what you will do. WeCAN
tell you, those of use who have done the research, what the oddsare and what
kinds of typical outcomes are with CSA's, and why theterms co-dependent and
enabler exist, and why there are slang terms inpsychology for the various
flavors of people who stay involved inrelationships with, say a BPD or
Borderline Personality Disordersuffering CSA. We CAN give you possible resources
and someinformation, but in the end, the help you get will be the kind yougive
yourself, and seek from real professionals and counselors who yousit down with,
in person, week after week, to get some perspectivewith and find your own
integrity.Try and read the stuff you find on emotional intelligence, ask thehard
questions about your mate and their abilities, and try andremember your own
dreams and what YOU wanted- the kind of life youwanted to have and once dreamed
of.I guarantee you only this- a CSA will and can never give you anythingyou
dream about, unless you are very, very ill. If they suffernoticeable symptoms to
bring you to a place like this, they classifyas "mentally and/or emotionally
ill" and even with professional helpfor years- maybe decades, their options for
recovery are quitepossibly very slim indeed.Or you probably wouldn't be
here.Those are the facts for them.For you?Perhaps when you're done, you'll be
done, and ready for the rest ofthe world again. You'll know when you know, and
until then, this iswhat you are choosing to help you learn something only you
understand. I'll bet there is a gift in it though, if you survive intact.C.S.
Lewis said that pain is the greatest teacher of all- it makes usall that more
aware of joy and the precious, priceless, short gift wehave that isLife.Again,
may you find your own peace in carrying this torch so bravely.And may your
efforts help light up the dark in this night of thesesides of humanity. My heart
goes out with you, and my prayers.I'll be thinking about you over the years.-JP






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]