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#1111 From: "Valdeane W. Brown, Ph.D." <valdeanebrown@...>
Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:31 pm
Subject: Re: Understanding graphs and charts produced by Zengar
valbrownusa
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You raise an interesting question and my use of the word interesting probably does point to the source of your local practitioners using that word as well.

Yes, there are tons of statistical operation that you can use, both in and out of the program but, let me ask you this first: how do you know if a wine is good?  Do you analyze each bottle, or take a sample bottle out of a case and analyze it?  Or do you get recommendations, perhaps have a glass, then get a bottle and try it yourself?  And, if you like it, do you ask: Hmmm, I wonder if that was a placebo effect?  Maybe I just want to please the person who recommended it to me. No, I don’t think so.  I think you go with your own experience, in the end, regardless of what “the numbers” say.

From our perspective the numbers really are irrelevant.  What counts is the personal transformation that happens in the lives of those who use the Zengar training process.

Let’s say that your numbers “go up” and that’s supposed to be “good”.  But, despite that, your life stays the same.  Do you now feel better because your numbers were “good”?  Or what if those numbers went down and that’s supposed to be “bad”; but your life gets better.  You’re happier, fell more energetic, sleep better or whatever it is.  Will you then say: “No, this is no good because my numbers didn’t go up, they went down instead.”

I would hope no but, in the end, it is your choice because it is your life.

I’m not sure if that helped with the general question about the role of “the numbers”.  Others can talk about exporting the data so you can look at in via Excel or whatever else you want to do.  Some others might talk about the “Quick Stats” options or the over twenty different kinds of Wavelet Analyses that are included, or the other JTFA methods, let alone the various displays in off line Analysis.  But I suspect that most Zengar users will say: So what’s happening in your life because that’s what is really the only important thing, in the end.

val


On 11/24/09 1:19 PM, "campusvideosolutions" <mehdi.assadi-moghadam@...> wrote:


 
 
   

Hi,

I'm in paris and I have tried Zengar with two different practitioners here for 10 and 2 sessions respectively.  Although I did think that there were some effects (I am looking to improve concentration and help with mild depression) I could not be sure that it was not a placebo effect and unfortunately, the practitioners were not able to describe in real terms how progress was being made.  One kept describing the graphs at the end of the session as "interesting" but could not elaborate.  The other admitted to not knowing what the various graphs and charts meant.  

Having read through a number of books on neurofeedback, I am very interested in "seeing" the changes in functioning on a screen and in a quantitative way.  I am however, quite certain that the current practitioners in my city are not going to be able to help me.  Is there anything I can do for myself?  I do not want to buy a system (too expensive) but would like to be able to interpret the data output.

 
   



#1110 From: "campusvideosolutions" <mehdi.assadi-moghadam@...>
Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:19 pm
Subject: Understanding graphs and charts produced by Zengar
campusvideos...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi,

I'm in paris and I have tried Zengar with two different practitioners here for
10 and 2 sessions respectively.  Although I did think that there were some
effects (I am looking to improve concentration and help with mild depression) I
could not be sure that it was not a placebo effect and unfortunately, the
practitioners were not able to describe in real terms how progress was being
made.  One kept describing the graphs at the end of the session as "interesting"
but could not elaborate.  The other admitted to not knowing what the various
graphs and charts meant.

Having read through a number of books on neurofeedback, I am very interested in
"seeing" the changes in functioning on a screen and in a quantitative way.  I am
however, quite certain that the current practitioners in my city are not going
to be able to help me.  Is there anything I can do for myself?  I do not want to
buy a system (too expensive) but would like to be able to interpret the data
output.

#1109 From: Karen Shue <kshue@...>
Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:43 pm
Subject: Re: new and considering home use programs
drklshue
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Ellen:

I am familiar with both of these systems, although I only use BrainPaint in a special nonlinear version - not the standard protocols it comes loaded with.

I am also working right now with someone having chronic anxiety and insomnia who has experienced a great deal of "push-back" from every kind of intervention he has ever tried across the years.

The only intervention that did not create a strong "push-back" for him (i.e., insomnia better for a night or two then dramatically worse for several nights) was the Zengar system. We did do a session of BrainPaint to see if it would be a good choice for him to use at home, but it did have more "push-back", although it seemed to quickly settle.

I agree with your instinct that less is more for sensitive systems/brains.

I've inserted other comments into your post:

ellen wrote:
 

I am extremely sensitive, not typical at all. Having had bad experiences with all sorts of therapies in the past, I would want to proceed very slowly and cautiously. I think I read that Zengar comes with preloaded sessions; does that mean it is kind of a one-size-fits-all?

No -- it's not pre-loaded sessions, it's a default sequence of training stages that lets you pay attention to your experience instead of to the technology.

You are controlling how much information you are signalling to your brain by how "difficult"/sensitive  you set the settings at throughout the session -- it's the same kind of information to every user (i.e., about your brain's "turbulence" in any moment) , but that makes sense because every user's brain works on the same principles. It's simply providing the information that will allow your brain to learn about itself and become more resilient as a consequence. The Zengar site or listerv can give you much more information. The reason for not creating "push-back" is that there's no "push" -- you're not telling the brain what to do, so there is no reaction against that.

The BrainPaint system does indeed come with pre-loaded protocols based on research and symptom-protocol matching. If you use those, you are checking off symptoms and letting the software choose the protocol(s) for you and how long for each. I don't recommend this, especially if you have a sensitive brain as you will likely experience a lot of side-effect type reaction to the "pushing".

IF you go for a BrainPaint system, I would recommend asking them to create a nonlinear version system (you can even say one like Karen Shue's ;-) and use only that nonlinear protocol. But right now, I would lean toward the Zengar system if you can afford it, based on my experience with a maybe similarly sensitive person.

BrainPaint, on the other hand seems very adaptable but proclaims the advantage of working at home to be that you can do many more sessions per time period than you would if you were making visits twice a week to a practitioner. But for myself I have never found doing more than usual of anything to be a good thing.

That's  true of any any home system, of course. You are in control of how often you do a session. You will need to gauge how often you want/need a session based on how you're feeling. There has been very helpful advice related to Lyme training on the yahoo groups Zengar list (I think it was there -- try doing a search here too ;-)

Hope that helps!

Karen



#1108 From: ellen <ellenelle@...>
Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:01 pm
Subject: new and considering home use programs
pinkplatypus99
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
I am looking into working with BrainPaint or Zengar through their home systems. Since I am homebound due to CFS/Lyme disease, that is my only option. I'm seeking improvement in several mild to moderate neurological and cognitive problems that I am also treating at the moment with hormone balancing and supplements.
 
I am extremely sensitive, not typical at all. Having had bad experiences with all sorts of therapies in the past, I would want to proceed very slowly and cautiously. I think I read that Zengar comes with preloaded sessions; does that mean it is kind of a one-size-fits-all? BrainPaint, on the other hand seems very adaptable but proclaims the advantage of working at home to be that you can do many more sessions per time period than you would if you were making visits twice a week to a practitioner. But for myself I have never found doing more than usual of anything to be a good thing.
 
Does anyone here have any experience with these home programs, and any preferences? How realistic it is to think that this could work?
 
Thanks,
Ellen
 

#1107 From: Dean Smith <activemindandbody@...>
Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:39 am
Subject: Re: Re: new to neurofeedback and confused
activemindan...
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Send Email Send Email
 
thanks for sharing your experience meg eeg spectrium is one of the units I was thinking about buying.  It sounds like you get great results with zengar.
 
Dean


From: parisprints2002 <megp1@...>
To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 24 November, 2009 2:17:20 AM
Subject: [neurofeedcommunity] Re: new to neurofeedback and confused

 

Hi Dean,

I now work with a doctor who at one time used EEG spectrum equipment until one of her clients had an opportunity to experience the zengar equipment with me and convinced her to hire me as the difference was profound. after 20 times with the eeg spectrum she felt worse and after two times with zengar equipment she felt considerably improved. Some of my clients in that office were previously getting trained with EEG spectrum and now doing this type of neurofeedback. I had one client(a 17 year old boy) that really liked EEG spectrum but after experiencing zengar as so much better he convinced his mom to start training. his mom now wantsdad and sister to start as well.Not one person in that office prefers EEG spectrum BTW.
I have never had a problem with our having less research available(there is some research)or the black box issue. out of many hundreds of people maybe a hand full asked about research and those people still chose to do it when only limited was available. It was not a deal breaker. If it works, it works. Just using it one time is enough to see that it does.
this has been my experience.

Meg

--- In neurofeedcommunity@ yahoogroups. com, Dean Smith <activemindandbody@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hi Val, thanks for your comments and I am starting to gather more information to help me make a decision.  I spoke to john and Ian in australia who both use your system and rave about it however they are both 3hrs away from me by plan so I am finding it difficult to try your machine do you know of anyone who has purchased one in melbourne?
>
> I agree with what you have said about how diagnosis is not useful with some techniques as they don't work from a medical model (I do not work from a medical model either), however that would not stop your group from doing studies that are based on outcome measures and the like to show clinically once and for all that your technology does what it states.  I just completed the eeg spectrum training over the last 4 days to try and help me make up my mind, and I must admit it seems quite good and that most neurofeedback works.  However I was a little concerned about the reductionist thinking, use of QEEG and the subjective placement of some of the electrodes.  But I found the presenter very open and honest and he stated he has friends who use your system (and LenS) and report it gets results but the lack of research and clear methodolgy for why it works could be a problem.
>
> Dean
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: "Valdeane W. Brown, Ph.D." <valdeanebrown@ ...>
> To: neurofeedcommunity@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Sat, 14 November, 2009 3:06:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [neurofeedcommunity ] Re: new to neurofeedback and confused
>
>  
> Dean,
>
> The user survey was done as a fairly standard survey so users reported their experience via a standardized survey instrument that we developed using rating scales, etc.  It’s all described in the actual survey document.  We really aren’t that interested in traditional clinical research as what we do is not a treatment of any specific disorder or condition.  The approach is completely diagnostically agnostic: ie literally the exact same placement, targeting of time-frequency events, and kind of feedback are without any regard to the reason that someone is using the training.  The approach doesn’t care â€" and can not make use of â€" diagnosis or presenting complaint as a basis for modifying or implementing what is done during the training.  All of that kind of data is as irrelevant to what NeurOptimal does, and how it works, as hat size â€" of the trainer!
>
> Now I know that can sound odd, esp to a health care practitioner, but that really is the case for what we do.  Our approach and technology is unique, it’s really that simple.  And no matter what any other system developed or trainer says, no other system can do what ours can.  Understanding this difference in perspective and technology is actually quite critical in assessing whether or not NeurOptimal may be of further interest to you.  I hope that helps some.
>
> val
>
>
> On 11/11/09 3:30 AM, "Dean Smith" <activemindandbody@ yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > 
> > 
> >   
> >
> >Thanks val, with the user survey how was this conducted and has there been much research done using neuroptimal for various conditions.
> >dean
> >
> >
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From:valbrownusa <valdeanebrown@ gmail.com>
> >To: neurofeedcommunity@ yahoogroups. com
> >Sent: Sat, November 7, 2009 6:52:19 PM
> >Subject: [neurofeedcommunity ] Re: new to neurofeedback and confused
> >
> >  
> >In some ways the choice is fairly easy. If you want an easy to use, essentially fail-safe system, that is diagnostically agnostic, works across the range and is "fault tolerant" then there really isn't any question. NeurOptimal by Zengar is the choice. If you haven't browsed our site -- www.zengar.com -- that could be a very good place to start.. You might also be interested in our user survey and, of course, more specific questions can be addressed to info@zengar. com <mailto:info% 40zengar. com> , as well as in the zengapncp@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:zengapncp% 40yahoogroups. com>  forum (which you've also done).
> >
> >It is an interesting field and there are a lot of opinions out there but the bottom line really is very simple and easy. I hope that helps.
> >
> >val
> >--- In neurofeedcommunity@ yahoogroups. com <mailto:neurofeedco m munity%40yahoogr oups.com> , "activemindandbody" <activemindandbody@ ...> wrote:
> >>
> >> Neurofeedback is still very small in Australia but I have been watching the research come out over the last few years and am impressed and the few guys who use it in my home town (Melbourne) do rave about it. I had my QEEG done last week to try and learn more and am doing the spectrum training in a few weeks and have looked at the zengar system. But frankly still cannot see what all the fuss is about not sure if I am missing something and am totally confused about what system would be best.
> >>
> >
> >
> > 
> > 
> >   
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
> Enter now: http://au.docs. yahoo.com/ homepageset/
>



Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7. Enter now.

#1106 From: "parisprints2002" <megp1@...>
Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:17 pm
Subject: Re: new to neurofeedback and confused
parisprints2002
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Dean,


I now work with a doctor who at one time used EEG spectrum equipment until one
of her clients had an opportunity to experience the zengar equipment with me and
convinced her to hire me as the difference was profound. after 20 times with the
eeg spectrum she felt worse and after two times with zengar equipment she felt
considerably improved. Some of my clients in that office were previously getting
trained with EEG spectrum and now doing this type of neurofeedback. I had one
client(a 17 year old boy) that really liked EEG spectrum but after experiencing
zengar as so much better he convinced his mom to start training. his mom now
wantsdad and sister to start as well.Not one person in that office prefers EEG
spectrum BTW.
I have never had a problem with our having less research available(there is some
research)or the black box issue. out of many hundreds of people maybe a hand
full asked about research and those people still chose to do it when only
limited was available. It was not a deal breaker. If it works, it works. Just
using it one time is enough to see that it does.
this has been my experience.

Meg


--- In neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com, Dean Smith <activemindandbody@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Val, thanks for your comments and I am starting to gather more information
to help me make a decision.  I spoke to john and Ian in australia who both use
your system and rave about it however they are both 3hrs away from me by plan so
I am finding it difficult to try your machine do you know of anyone who has
purchased one in melbourne?
>
> I agree with what you have said about how diagnosis is not useful with some
techniques as they don't work from a medical model (I do not work from a medical
model either), however that would not stop your group from doing studies that
are based on outcome measures and the like to show clinically once and for all
that your technology does what it states.  I just completed the eeg spectrum
training over the last 4 days to try and help me make up my mind, and I must
admit it seems quite good and that most neurofeedback works.  However I was a
little concerned about the reductionist thinking, use of QEEG and the subjective
placement of some of the electrodes.  But I found the presenter very open and
honest and he stated he has friends who use your system (and LenS) and report
it gets results but the lack of research and clear methodolgy for why it works
could be a problem.
>
> Dean
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "Valdeane W. Brown, Ph.D." <valdeanebrown@...>
> To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sat, 14 November, 2009 3:06:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [neurofeedcommunity] Re: new to neurofeedback and confused
>
>  
> Dean,
>
> The user survey was done as a fairly standard survey so users reported their
experience via a standardized survey instrument that we developed using rating
scales, etc.  It’s all described in the actual survey document.  We really
aren’t that interested in traditional clinical research as what we do is not a
treatment of any specific disorder or condition.  The approach is completely
diagnostically agnostic: ie literally the exact same placement, targeting of
time-frequency events, and kind of feedback are without any regard to the reason
that someone is using the training.  The approach doesn’t care " and can
not make use of " diagnosis or presenting complaint as a basis for modifying
or implementing what is done during the training.  All of that kind of data is
as irrelevant to what NeurOptimal does, and how it works, as hat size " of the
trainer!
>
> Now I know that can sound odd, esp to a health care practitioner, but that
really is the case for what we do.  Our approach and technology is unique,
it’s really that simple.  And no matter what any other system developed or
trainer says, no other system can do what ours can.  Understanding this
difference in perspective and technology is actually quite critical in assessing
whether or not NeurOptimal may be of further interest to you.  I hope that
helps some.
>
> val
>
>
> On 11/11/09 3:30 AM, "Dean Smith" <activemindandbody@ yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > 
> > 
> >   
> >
> >Thanks val, with the user survey how was this conducted and has there been
much research done using neuroptimal for various conditions.
> >dean
> >
> >
> ________________________________
> From:valbrownusa <valdeanebrown@ gmail.com>
> >To: neurofeedcommunity@ yahoogroups. com
> >Sent: Sat, November 7, 2009 6:52:19 PM
> >Subject: [neurofeedcommunity ] Re: new to neurofeedback and confused
> >
> >  
> >In some ways the choice is fairly easy. If you want an easy to use,
essentially fail-safe system, that is diagnostically agnostic, works across the
range and is "fault tolerant" then there really isn't any question. NeurOptimal
by Zengar is the choice. If you haven't browsed our site -- www.zengar.com --
that could be a very good place to start.. You might also be interested in our
user survey and, of course, more specific questions can be addressed to
info@zengar. com <mailto:info% 40zengar. com> , as well as in the
zengapncp@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:zengapncp% 40yahoogroups. com>  forum (which
you've also done).
> >
> >It is an interesting field and there are a lot of opinions out there but the
bottom line really is very simple and easy. I hope that helps.
> >
> >val
> >--- In neurofeedcommunity@ yahoogroups. com <mailto:neurofeedcom
munity%40yahoogr oups.com> , "activemindandbody" <activemindandbody@ ...> wrote:
> >>
> >> Neurofeedback is still very small in Australia but I have been watching the
research come out over the last few years and am impressed and the few guys who
use it in my home town (Melbourne) do rave about it. I had my QEEG done last
week to try and learn more and am doing the spectrum training in a few weeks and
have looked at the zengar system. But frankly still cannot see what all the fuss
is about not sure if I am missing something and am totally confused about what
system would be best.
> >>
> >
> >
> > 
> > 
> >   
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>      
________________________________________________________________________________\
__
> Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7.
> Enter now: http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/
>

#1105 From: Dean Smith <activemindandbody@...>
Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:37 am
Subject: Re: Re: new to neurofeedback and confused
activemindan...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Val, thanks for your comments and I am starting to gather more information to help me make a decision.  I spoke to john and Ian in australia who both use your system and rave about it however they are both 3hrs away from me by plan so I am finding it difficult to try your machine do you know of anyone who has purchased one in melbourne?
 
I agree with what you have said about how diagnosis is not useful with some techniques as they don't work from a medical model (I do not work from a medical model either), however that would not stop your group from doing studies that are based on outcome measures and the like to show clinically once and for all that your technology does what it states.  I just completed the eeg spectrum training over the last 4 days to try and help me make up my mind, and I must admit it seems quite good and that most neurofeedback works.  However I was a little concerned about the reductionist thinking, use of QEEG and the subjective placement of some of the electrodes.  But I found the presenter very open and honest and he stated he has friends who use your system (and LenS) and report it gets results but the lack of research and clear methodolgy for why it works could be a problem.
 
Dean


From: "Valdeane W. Brown, Ph.D." <valdeanebrown@...>
To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 14 November, 2009 3:06:18 AM
Subject: Re: [neurofeedcommunity] Re: new to neurofeedback and confused

 

Dean,

The user survey was done as a fairly standard survey so users reported their experience via a standardized survey instrument that we developed using rating scales, etc.  It’s all described in the actual survey document.  We really aren’t that interested in traditional clinical research as what we do is not a treatment of any specific disorder or condition.  The approach is completely diagnostically agnostic: ie literally the exact same placement, targeting of time-frequency events, and kind of feedback are without any regard to the reason that someone is using the training.  The approach doesn’t care — and can not make use of — diagnosis or presenting complaint as a basis for modifying or implementing what is done during the training.  All of that kind of data is as irrelevant to what NeurOptimal does, and how it works, as hat size — of the trainer!

Now I know that can sound odd, esp to a health care practitioner, but that really is the case for what we do.  Our approach and technology is unique, it’s really that simple..  And no matter what any other system developed or trainer says, no other system can do what ours can.  Understanding this difference in perspective and technology is actually quite critical in assessing whether or not NeurOptimal may be of further interest to you.  I hope that helps some.

val


On 11/11/09 3:30 AM, "Dean Smith" <activemindandbody@ yahoo.com> wrote:


 
 
   

Thanks val, with the user survey how was this conducted and has there been much research done using neuroptimal for various conditions.
dean


From:
valbrownusa <valdeanebrown@ gmail.com>
To: neurofeedcommunity@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sat, November 7, 2009 6:52:19 PM
Subject: [neurofeedcommunity ] Re: new to neurofeedback and confused

  
In some ways the choice is fairly easy. If you want an easy to use, essentially fail-safe system, that is diagnostically agnostic, works across the range and is "fault tolerant" then there really isn't any question. NeurOptimal by Zengar is the choice. If you haven't browsed our site -- www.zengar.com -- that could be a very good place to start. You might also be interested in our user survey and, of course, more specific questions can be addressed to info@zengar. com <mailto:info% 40zengar. com> , as well as in the zengapncp@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:zengapncp% 40yahoogroups. com>  forum (which you've also done).

It is an interesting field and there are a lot of opinions out there but the bottom line really is very simple and easy. I hope that helps.

val
--- In neurofeedcommunity@ yahoogroups. com <mailto:neurofeedcom munity%40yahoogr oups.com> , "activemindandbody" <activemindandbody@ ...> wrote:
>
> Neurofeedback is still very small in Australia but I have been watching the research come out over the last few years and am impressed and the few guys who use it in my home town (Melbourne) do rave about it. I had my QEEG done last week to try and learn more and am doing the spectrum training in a few weeks and have looked at the zengar system. But frankly still cannot see what all the fuss is about not sure if I am missing something and am totally confused about what system would be best.
>


 
 
   




Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7. Enter now.

#1104 From: Karen Shue <kshue@...>
Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:57 pm
Subject: PR Opportunity
drklshue
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
I got this in my email -- thought I would share the contact info in case you or your clients would want to share -- notice the deadline of 22 Nov!

Nothing to do with  me -- just respond to her directly please ;-)

Karen

________________________________

Summary: Neurofeedback: any personal experiences?

Name: Dr. Clare Albright, Psychologist

Category: Health/Fitness

Email: DrClareAlb@...

Title: Neurofeedback Book: Clients, Parents of clients, Practioners

Media Outlet: Book on Neurofeedback

Specific Geographic Region: N

Region:

Deadline: 07:11pm PACIFIC - 22 November

Query:

Did neurofeedback (brain biofeedback) make a difference in your life? For
better or for worse. What did you notice about neurofeedback?



#1103 From: "Steve Ebright" <mail@...>
Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:03 pm
Subject: AW: cyclic migraine after Zengar NFB training
neurosteve
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 

Hi Julie,

i do training with CFS clients since 10 years. And I was / am one myself. Its simply a fact: almost all CFS clients react with some sort of exhaustion breakdown when the neurofeedback training is too intense / too long / too often.

 

For example - even today – after 10 years of neurofeedback training – I cannot do more than 1 training session of 20min. per week. More will immediately result in various symptoms of an exhaustion breakdown. And I am always using the system the default way.

 

Reducing training and incorporating training pauses is the only thing that will allow CFS clients to continue a neurofeedback training successfully.

 

Steve

 

Von: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com [mailto:neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von JULIE WEINER
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. November 2009 16:13
An: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: RE: [neurofeedcommunity] cyclic migraine after Zengar NFB training

 

 

I'd suggest looking for extrinsic constraints like fluid intake, sleep or nutrition issues.  Drinking enough water?  Dehydration is the most common cause of headaches.  Nutrients important to prevent migraines are magnesium (for muscle relaxation and inflammation control) and the B-vitamins, particularly ribolavin (B2) for mental energy/speed of processing/alertness.  Magnesium absorption is decreased and excretion increased by carbohydrates--especially refined carbs, but also including complex carbs, so if you're semi- or vegetarian or have a sweet tooth, you might want to take magnesium gluconate or other amino-acid chelated magnesium.   Another cause of relative magnesium deficiency may be calcium supplements:  Mg needs to be balanced with Ca for bone structure and storage of these mineral buffering agents.  One sign of Mg deficiency is leg or menstrual muscle cramps.  (And Mg is commonly prescribed to help CFS). 

 

By the way, I had CFS years ago and besides magnesium, the most effective supplement I took--it snapped me right out of it--was phosphatidyl choline.  The choline is a precursor of the imporant (for muscle activity) neurotransmitter acetyl choline, and PC also helps cleanse the liver.  (Careful, taking it before bed will give you dreams so vivid they may wake you.)  See www.bodybio.com for more info on PC. 

 

Julie Weiner, M.S. (Nutrition)

 

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 8:53 AM, rivetanne2004 wrote:

 

   Hi,

 

I am 29, suffering from chronic fatigue for two years now. Zengar training has helped me to cure my depression, but I still feel tiredand lack of energy.

 

Sometimes after NFB training I feel more energized, the second NFB training I will feel the same and then it s going down again, being tired and with migraine. I am doing NFB twice a week since August (I stopped my anti-depressant drug one month ago). I dont know whether I should take less trainings a week, or should I stop for a while?? ...

 

Thanks for your concerns,

 

all the best,

 

Anne from brussels




#1102 From: JULIE WEINER <biofeedbackwellness@...>
Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:12 pm
Subject: RE: cyclic migraine after Zengar NFB training
biofeedbackw...
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I'd suggest looking for extrinsic constraints like fluid intake, sleep or nutrition issues.  Drinking enough water?  Dehydration is the most common cause of headaches.  Nutrients important to prevent migraines are magnesium (for muscle relaxation and inflammation control) and the B-vitamins, particularly ribolavin (B2) for mental energy/speed of processing/alertness.  Magnesium absorption is decreased and excretion increased by carbohydrates--especially refined carbs, but also including complex carbs, so if you're semi- or vegetarian or have a sweet tooth, you might want to take magnesium gluconate or other amino-acid chelated magnesium.   Another cause of relative magnesium deficiency may be calcium supplements:  Mg needs to be balanced with Ca for bone structure and storage of these mineral buffering agents.  One sign of Mg deficiency is leg or menstrual muscle cramps.  (And Mg is commonly prescribed to help CFS). 

By the way, I had CFS years ago and besides magnesium, the most effective supplement I took--it snapped me right out of it--was phosphatidyl choline.  The choline is a precursor of the imporant (for muscle activity) neurotransmitter acetyl choline, and PC also helps cleanse the liver.  (Careful, taking it before bed will give you dreams so vivid they may wake you.)  See www.bodybio.com for more info on PC. 

Julie Weiner, M.S. (Nutrition)

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 8:53 AM, rivetanne2004 wrote:

   Hi,

I am 29, suffering from chronic fatigue for two years now. Zengar training has helped me to cure my depression, but I still feel tiredand lack of energy.

Sometimes after NFB training I feel more energized, the second NFB training I will feel the same and then it s going down again, being tired and with migraine. I am doing NFB twice a week since August (I stopped my anti-depressant drug one month ago). I dont know whether I should take less trainings a week, or should I stop for a while?? ...

Thanks for your concerns,

all the best,

Anne from brussels



#1101 From: Raaymakers Molly <molly.neuro@...>
Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:53 pm
Subject: Re: cyclic migraine after Zengar NFB training
raaymakers_m...
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Hello Anne!
 
What you describe strongly suggests there is an extrinsic factor involved in your current and original symptoms.  Most common are inflammatory, infection and toxic conditions creating the on-going fatigue and migraine occurrences.  Another area often involved worth sorting out is sleep quality issues.  Do you have knowledge of any such conditions you may have?
 
 
Molly Raaymakers, MA, LLP
616.940.9870


--- On Tue, 11/17/09, rivetanne2004 <rivetanne2004@...> wrote:

From: rivetanne2004 <rivetanne2004@...>
Subject: [neurofeedcommunity] cyclic migraine after Zengar NFB training
To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 8:53 AM

 
Hi,

I am 29, suffering from chronic fatigue for two years now. Zengar training has helped me to cure my depression, but I still feel tiredand lack of energy.

Sometimes after NFB training I feel more energized, the second NFB training I will feel the same and then it s going down again, being tired and with migraine. I am doing NFB twice a week since August (I stopped my anti-depressant drug one month ago). I dont know whether I should take less trainings a week, or should I stop for a while?? ...

Thanks for your concerns,

all the best,

Anne from brussels


#1100 From: "Steve Ebright" <mail@...>
Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:47 pm
Subject: Re: cyclic migraine after Zengar NFB training
neurosteve
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hello anne,
i already replied to your posting 2x:

real cfs patients have to do the training on a slow pace and must take breaks once and a while! 

if a cfs patientpushes him/herself too much, no training pauses, too long sessions, too many sessions, then the result with cfs patients is always the same: some sort of exhaustion breakdown... (in your case the migraines...).

so here again my recommendations: you already did 25 sessions you wrote: it time for a break/pause now! at least 1 month. then continue training with only 1 training per week!

reread my other replies once more.

steve 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet




Am 17.11.2009 um 14:54 schrieb "rivetanne2004" <rivetanne2004@...>:

 

Hi,

I am 29, suffering from chronic fatigue for two years now. Zengar training has helped me to cure my depression, but I still feel tiredand lack of energy.

Sometimes after NFB training I feel more energized, the second NFB training I will feel the same and then it s going down again, being tired and with migraine. I am doing NFB twice a week since August (I stopped my anti-depressant drug one month ago). I dont know whether I should take less trainings a week, or should I stop for a while?? ...

Thanks for your concerns,

all the best,

Anne from brussels


#1099 From: "rivetanne2004" <rivetanne2004@...>
Date: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:53 pm
Subject: cyclic migraine after Zengar NFB training
rivetanne2004
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Hi,

I am 29, suffering from chronic fatigue for two years now. Zengar training has
helped me to cure my depression, but I still feel tiredand lack of energy.

Sometimes after NFB training I feel more energized, the second NFB training I
will feel the same and then it s going down again, being tired and with
migraine. I am doing NFB twice a week since August (I stopped my anti-depressant
drug one month ago). I dont know whether I should take less trainings a week, or
should I stop for a while?? ...

Thanks for your concerns,

all the best,

Anne from brussels

#1098 From: "Steve Ebright" <mail@...>
Date: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:51 am
Subject: Re: Question for Len Och
neurosteve
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hi len,
have you ever tried ayahuasca in peru?
:-)
steve

Von meinem iPhone gesendet




Am 15.11.2009 um 22:33 schrieb "Len" <lochs@...>:

 

Ted,

Yes, I would expect that you will notice something within 6 - 8 sessions. LENS is good, but it, like anything else, won't do everything. Here's when it won't work:

If frontal Alpha is huge enough to be well above 17 uV
If there is residual infection, inflammation, or toxicity: these are medical issues.
If there is hypometabolism all across the brain with EEG amplitudes under 1 uV.

I would not wait 6 or 8 sessions, though. If the EEG doesn't change on a session-by-session basis, and you don't notice something within 3 sessions, please have the therapist contact me and send me your data. Maybe I can suggest something.

I'm not doing a lot now on the lists and will be able to respond to some other issues when I come back from Peru on the 24th of November.

Best,

Len Ochs

-----Original Message-----
>From: TedF <tedfackler@gmail.com>
>Sent: Nov 14, 2009 1:44 PM
>To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [neurofeedcommunity] Question for Len Och
>
>Greetings Len!
>
>Last week I began using your LENS therapy. I have my 2nd session this upcoming Monday...
>
>I wanted to write to ask a couple questions about your system.
>
>First, I suffer from Major Depressive disorder; or moreso, super lower frequencies predominantly in the left hemisphere...Anyways, I've tried most everything: conventional Rx, traditional neurotherapy, Zengar, and of course, exercise/diet/etc.
>
>Because of a handful of reasons (that I won't get into now), I have about 3-4 weeks before I "have" to see a psychiatrist, and start on that carousel of trying to find a medication that works. Since I'm not super excited about that, I'm putting all my energy into finding an alternative method of successful treatment; i.e. trying LENS.
>
>My question is whether in 3-4 weeks (with 6-8 sessions) under my belt, whether I will be able to sense improvement or not? I know everyone's different, and really you can't speculate, but I wonder if I'm giving it enough time to sense a difference? I plan to do Mon/Fri sessions; and hope that in 3-4 weeks I'll know whether A) This won't work for me, or B) Some progress has been made. Any help on this....?
>
>Also, in "The Healing Power of NeuroFeedback" it's stated that neurofeedback is predominantly to help those with CNS disregulation...and while I think I understand that as brain-wave activity being out-of-whack and unbalanced, I wonder whether it applies to metabolic dysfunction in brains (depression, in this case, being a hypo-metabolised Left Prefrontal Cortex, etc.)?
>
>Also, while I assume that combining different modalities is ok, I wonder whether you have any opinion on the use of St. John's Wort while starting LENS? That's the position I'm in; using both, but wanted to check with you on whether combining herbal supplements + your therapy is legit?
>
>Thanks for reading this rather lengthy post.
>
>Ted
>


#1097 From: Len <lochs@...>
Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:32 pm
Subject: Re: Question for Len Och
len_ochs
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Ted,

Yes, I would expect that you will notice something within 6 - 8 sessions.  LENS
is good, but it, like anything else, won't do everything.  Here's when it won't
work:

If frontal Alpha is huge enough to be well above 17 uV
If there is residual infection, inflammation, or toxicity: these are medical
issues.
If there is hypometabolism all across the brain with EEG amplitudes under 1 uV.

I would not wait 6 or 8 sessions, though.  If the EEG doesn't change on a
session-by-session basis, and you don't notice something within 3 sessions,
please have the therapist contact me and send me your data.  Maybe I can suggest
something.

I'm not doing a lot now on the lists and will be able to respond to some other
issues when I come back from Peru on the 24th of November.

Best,

Len Ochs

-----Original Message-----
>From: TedF <tedfackler@...>
>Sent: Nov 14, 2009 1:44 PM
>To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [neurofeedcommunity] Question for Len Och
>
>Greetings Len!
>
>Last week I began using your LENS therapy.  I have my 2nd session this upcoming
Monday...
>
>I wanted to write to ask a couple questions about your system.
>
>First, I suffer from Major Depressive disorder; or moreso, super lower
frequencies predominantly in the left hemisphere...Anyways, I've tried most
everything: conventional Rx, traditional neurotherapy, Zengar, and of course,
exercise/diet/etc.
>
>Because of a handful of reasons (that I won't get into now), I have about 3-4
weeks before I "have" to see a psychiatrist, and start on that carousel of
trying to find a medication that works.  Since I'm not super excited about that,
I'm putting all my energy into finding an alternative method of successful
treatment; i.e. trying LENS.
>
>My question is whether in 3-4 weeks (with 6-8 sessions) under my belt, whether
I will be able to sense improvement or not?  I know everyone's different, and
really you can't speculate, but I wonder if I'm giving it enough time to sense a
difference?  I plan to do Mon/Fri sessions; and hope that in 3-4 weeks I'll know
whether A) This won't work for me, or B) Some progress has been made.  Any help
on this....?
>
>Also, in "The Healing Power of NeuroFeedback" it's stated that neurofeedback is
predominantly to help those with CNS disregulation...and while I think I
understand that as brain-wave activity being out-of-whack and unbalanced, I
wonder whether it applies to metabolic dysfunction in brains (depression, in
this case, being a hypo-metabolised Left Prefrontal Cortex, etc.)?
>
>Also, while I assume that combining different modalities is ok, I wonder
whether you have any opinion on the use of St. John's Wort while starting LENS? 
That's the position I'm in; using both, but wanted to check with you on whether
combining herbal supplements + your therapy is legit?
>
>Thanks for reading this rather lengthy post.
>
>Ted
>

#1096 From: "TedF" <tedfackler@...>
Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:44 pm
Subject: Question for Len Och
facklerted
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Greetings Len!

Last week I began using your LENS therapy.  I have my 2nd session this upcoming
Monday...

I wanted to write to ask a couple questions about your system.

First, I suffer from Major Depressive disorder; or moreso, super lower
frequencies predominantly in the left hemisphere...Anyways, I've tried most
everything: conventional Rx, traditional neurotherapy, Zengar, and of course,
exercise/diet/etc.

Because of a handful of reasons (that I won't get into now), I have about 3-4
weeks before I "have" to see a psychiatrist, and start on that carousel of
trying to find a medication that works.  Since I'm not super excited about that,
I'm putting all my energy into finding an alternative method of successful
treatment; i.e. trying LENS.

My question is whether in 3-4 weeks (with 6-8 sessions) under my belt, whether I
will be able to sense improvement or not?  I know everyone's different, and
really you can't speculate, but I wonder if I'm giving it enough time to sense a
difference?  I plan to do Mon/Fri sessions; and hope that in 3-4 weeks I'll know
whether A) This won't work for me, or B) Some progress has been made.  Any help
on this....?

Also, in "The Healing Power of NeuroFeedback" it's stated that neurofeedback is
predominantly to help those with CNS disregulation...and while I think I
understand that as brain-wave activity being out-of-whack and unbalanced, I
wonder whether it applies to metabolic dysfunction in brains (depression, in
this case, being a hypo-metabolised Left Prefrontal Cortex, etc.)?

Also, while I assume that combining different modalities is ok, I wonder whether
you have any opinion on the use of St. John's Wort while starting LENS?  That's
the position I'm in; using both, but wanted to check with you on whether
combining herbal supplements + your therapy is legit?

Thanks for reading this rather lengthy post.

Ted

#1095 From: Julia Larsen <julhowsash@...>
Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:28 pm
Subject: RE: Re: new to neurofeedback and confused
julialarsen50
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Hi Val- (and or others)

Do you have any awareness of NeurOptimal being used with someone who has dystonia?

    Thanks-
        Julia

   

"There is a crack in everything and that is how the light gets in." Leonard Cohen




To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
From: valdeanebrown@...
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 08:06:18 -0800
Subject: Re: [neurofeedcommunity] Re: new to neurofeedback and confused

 
Dean,

The user survey was done as a fairly standard survey so users reported their experience via a standardized survey instrument that we developed using rating scales, etc.  Its all described in the actual survey document.  We really arent that interested in traditional clinical research as what we do is not a treatment of any specific disorder or condition.  The approach is completely diagnostically agnostic: ie literally the exact same placement, targeting of time-frequency events, and kind of feedback are without any regard to the reason that someone is using the training.  The approach doesnt care and can not make use of diagnosis or presenting complaint as a basis for modifying or implementing what is done during the training.  All of that kind of data is as irrelevant to what NeurOptimal does, and how it works, as hat size of the trainer!

Now I know that can sound odd, esp to a health care practitioner, but that really is the case for what we do.  Our approach and technology is unique, its really that simple.  And no matter what any other system developed or trainer says, no other system can do what ours can.  Understanding this difference in perspective and technology is actually quite critical in assessing whether or not NeurOptimal may be of further interest to you.  I hope that helps some.

val


On 11/11/09 3:30 AM, "Dean Smith" <activemindandbody@yahoo.com> wrote:



 
 
   

Thanks val, with the user survey how was this conducted and has there been much research done using neuroptimal for various conditions.
dean


From:
valbrownusa <valdeanebrown@gmail.com>
To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, November 7, 2009 6:52:19 PM
Subject: [neurofeedcommunity] Re: new to neurofeedback and confused

  
In some ways the choice is fairly easy. If you want an easy to use, essentially fail-safe system, that is diagnostically agnostic, works across the range and is "fault tolerant" then there really isn't any question. NeurOptimal by Zengar is the choice. If you haven't browsed our site -- www.zengar.com -- that could be a very good place to start. You might also be interested in our user survey and, of course, more specific questions can be addressed to info@zengar. com <mailto:info%40zengar.com> , as well as in the zengapncp@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:zengapncp%40yahoogroups.com>  forum (which you've also done).

It is an interesting field and there are a lot of opinions out there but the bottom line really is very simple and easy. I hope that helps.

val
--- In neurofeedcommunity@ yahoogroups. com <mailto:neurofeedcommunity%40yahoogroups.com> , "activemindandbody" <activemindandbody@ ...> wrote:
>
> Neurofeedback is still very small in Australia but I have been watching the research come out over the last few years and am impressed and the few guys who use it in my home town (Melbourne) do rave about it. I had my QEEG done last week to try and learn more and am doing the spectrum training in a few weeks and have looked at the zengar system. But frankly still cannot see what all the fuss is about not sure if I am missing something and am totally confused about what system would be best.
>


 
 
   





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#1094 From: "Valdeane W. Brown, Ph.D." <valdeanebrown@...>
Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:06 pm
Subject: Re: Re: new to neurofeedback and confused
valbrownusa
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Dean,

The user survey was done as a fairly standard survey so users reported their experience via a standardized survey instrument that we developed using rating scales, etc.  It’s all described in the actual survey document.  We really aren’t that interested in traditional clinical research as what we do is not a treatment of any specific disorder or condition.  The approach is completely diagnostically agnostic: ie literally the exact same placement, targeting of time-frequency events, and kind of feedback are without any regard to the reason that someone is using the training.  The approach doesn’t care — and can not make use of — diagnosis or presenting complaint as a basis for modifying or implementing what is done during the training.  All of that kind of data is as irrelevant to what NeurOptimal does, and how it works, as hat size — of the trainer!

Now I know that can sound odd, esp to a health care practitioner, but that really is the case for what we do.  Our approach and technology is unique, it’s really that simple.  And no matter what any other system developed or trainer says, no other system can do what ours can.  Understanding this difference in perspective and technology is actually quite critical in assessing whether or not NeurOptimal may be of further interest to you.  I hope that helps some.

val


On 11/11/09 3:30 AM, "Dean Smith" <activemindandbody@...> wrote:


 
 
   

Thanks val, with the user survey how was this conducted and has there been much research done using neuroptimal for various conditions.
dean


From:
valbrownusa <valdeanebrown@...>
To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, November 7, 2009 6:52:19 PM
Subject: [neurofeedcommunity] Re: new to neurofeedback and confused

  
In some ways the choice is fairly easy. If you want an easy to use, essentially fail-safe system, that is diagnostically agnostic, works across the range and is "fault tolerant" then there really isn't any question. NeurOptimal by Zengar is the choice. If you haven't browsed our site -- www.zengar.com -- that could be a very good place to start. You might also be interested in our user survey and, of course, more specific questions can be addressed to info@zengar. com <mailto:info%40zengar.com> , as well as in the zengapncp@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:zengapncp%40yahoogroups.com>  forum (which you've also done).

It is an interesting field and there are a lot of opinions out there but the bottom line really is very simple and easy. I hope that helps.

val
--- In neurofeedcommunity@ yahoogroups. com <mailto:neurofeedcommunity%40yahoogroups.com> , "activemindandbody" <activemindandbody@ ...> wrote:
>
> Neurofeedback is still very small in Australia but I have been watching the research come out over the last few years and am impressed and the few guys who use it in my home town (Melbourne) do rave about it. I had my QEEG done last week to try and learn more and am doing the spectrum training in a few weeks and have looked at the zengar system. But frankly still cannot see what all the fuss is about not sure if I am missing something and am totally confused about what system would be best.
>


 
 
   



#1093 From: Alan Bachers <abachers@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:56 pm
Subject: A many thumbs up book review
bachersa
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Once in a while the popular press catches up to or even anticipates what we in neurofeedback know to be the future. One such book is Howard Blooms The Genius of the Beast, a prodigious, and optimistic, revisioning of science and history from the perspective of capitalisms boom/bust, expand/contract cycles. With a range spanning the big bang to our present economic convulsion, Bloom meticulously traces economies and human endeavor that follow lawful patterns of soaring heights and obliterating depths. These are traced in grand swaths through science, biology, human advances and suffering.

With what another reviewer termed: science fiction in reverse, the author marries historical parallels to present realities, demonstrating repeating resurgences brought about by reengineered imagination, fantasy, novelty seeking, borne of the necessity of change or die a phenotypic shift.

He is an expert meme maker, and in elucidating capitalisms role throughout history he forecasts neurofeedbacks future. His description of capitalism at its best kept provoking me to say again and again: Thats neurofeedback. A secular genesis machine [the technology] triggering an evolutionary search engine [the brain and consciousness], leading to transcendence and a repurposing of life is as terse a description of neurofeedback in its broadest terms as anything Ive seen.

In those who succeed in emerging from some end game of often catastrophic proportions, the crush of adversity and constraint triggers a search for new meaning, a new sense of direction, a conversion established in new structures. Bloom masterfully connects ecologic, economic, biologic, political, scientific, religious, and cultural upheavals in spellbinding details that counterpoint the ultimately human transformations inherent in those cycles.

It is really the human story he tells in terms such as saturated intuition of pop culture, tuned empathy that discovers new possibilities, then pulls inward to create structures that work. Fission and fusion, expansion and contraction, boom and bust are ever-swinging pendula from which he derives ultimate hope for our present condition. He parallels the boom of neonatal neurons, many, many of which are eliminated to structure survival based on experience, with the unbridled proliferation of credit default swaps and attempts to rein them in.

The book is a compelling perspective on the cycles that have gotten us to where we are, and a hopeful prospect for a future in which neurofeedback could be the centerpiece. Neurofeedback could be the secular genesis machine that rapidly, efficiently, pervasively, and expansively propels humankind forward in ways similar to great discoveries of the past like cities, soap, the printing press, the internet, all of which democratically unleashed explosive human potential in those with access to them, benefitting many who dont.

While all this may seem bombastic and over-reaching to those still trying to prune whats wrong using neurofeedback, or dont train themselves, any training that gives information to the brain about itself brings change we have no way of measuring or even conceiving. Aside from quantifiable shifts in brain activity, these changes are shown in the transformed lives of those who have participated in neurofeedback, something else we cannot yet measure with much certainty.

In any event, Blooms The Genius of the Beast is a book that could be an optimistic glimpse backward from our neurofeedback future yet to be written, and a map to that possible future.

Alan Bachers


#1092 From: Dean Smith <activemindandbody@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:52 am
Subject: Re: Re: LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
activemindan...
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val do you know of any research using the system for children or adults who stutter?
 
Dean


From: "Valdeane W. Brown, Ph.D." <valdeanebrown@...>
To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 11, 2009 3:28:34 AM
Subject: Re: [neurofeedcommunity] Re: LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS

 

No current -- not in the zAmp that we developed and not when using TTL equipment with regular Flex Pro EEG pre-amps.  The EEG-Z pre-amps do send current down the line — under command from the software.  This is one of many reasons that we never endorsed the use of the EEG-Z pre-amps.  Not only did it violate my principle of not putting anything into the client, impedance checking is irrelevant, a legacy from maintaining the use of 60 year old DSP (digital signal processing) techniques to indirectly derive how much influence Line Noise will have on the signals coming from the Client.  Using JTFA (Joint Time-Frequency Analysis it isn’t necessary to attempt to derive that influence indirectly; rather, it can be measured precisely.


On 11/10/09 7:32 AM, "Gary" <garyames@comcast. net> wrote:


 
 
   

Val,
How much energy is used to detect line noise in the TT and the Z-amp?  I believe that some energy goes down the wires to detect impedence in other systems.
Gary Ames

--- In neurofeedcommunity@ yahoogroups. com <mailto:neurofeedcom munity%40yahoogr oups.com> , "Valdeane W. Brown, Ph.D." <valdeanebrown@ ...> wrote:
>
> The best descriptor for what is now called the LENS approach is its original
> name: EEG-Driven Stimulation or EDS.  The fact is that, no matter how low
> the level, the mechanism is “invasive” in that the process puts energy into
> the tissue.  Hence, changes in the EEG are detected and then those changes
> “drive” the quality of the stimulation used.  In this sense LENS is
> philosophically the same (or similar to) the operative principle of using
> ANY form of stimulation to induce a change.  Whether or not the exact
> mechanism for that effect is known or accepted is irrelevant; it is in any
> event and “invasive” stimulus that is “put into” the CNS.  This reality has
> another consequence to it which is that it is clearly not information that
> is being conveyed to the CNS because, information can be conveyed in various
> forms.  In other feedback system, for instance, the user has at least a few
> choices as to what kind of audiovisual format will be used to convey the
> information that is fed back to the CNS.  Various beeps, or songs, or visual
> elements such as bar graphs, linegraphs, movies, etc, etc might be used to
> similar, if not exactly the same kind, of training effect.  This is simply
> not the case with LENS or any other stimulation- based system.  In those
> systems the stimulation must be crafted precisely in order to have its
> effect.
>
> val
>
>
> On 11/9/09 6:19 AM, "Len" <lochs@...> wrote:
>
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >    
> >
> > TMS is magnetic measured in Teslas; the LENS is electromagnetic field measured
> > in watts/cm2.
> > TMS works with a heavy magnetic field moving and releasing electrons in their
> > shells; nobody knows what the LENS mechanisms are as the power of the LENS is
> > trillionths of the power of TMS.
> >
> > TMS is a one-way stimulation with no measurement or two-way interaction with
> > the brain.  The LENS is a feedback system with measurement of the EEG
> > affecting what returns to the client -- although the LENS is not feedback in
> > any sense that many others would recognize or accept.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Len -- from Lima, Peru this morning.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >> >From: TedF <tedfackler@. .. <mailto:tedfackler% 40gmail.com> >
> >> >Sent: Nov 7, 2009 2:18 PM
> >> >To: neurofeedcommunity@ yahoogroups. com <mailto:neurofeedcom munity%40yahoogr oups.com>
> >> <mailto:neurofeedcom munity%40yahoogr oups.com>
> >> >Subject: [neurofeedcommunity ] LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
> >> >
> >> >Are these modalities similar?
> >> >
> >
> >  
> >    
> >
> >
>

 
   




#1091 From: Dean Smith <activemindandbody@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:45 am
Subject: Re: Re: new to neurofeedback and confused
activemindan...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
yes I wanted to do that but not one person has a system in melbourne!  maybe I will be the first!
 
Dean


From: "biofeedbackwellness@..." <biofeedbackwellness@...>
To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 5:30:56 PM
Subject: Re: [neurofeedcommunity] Re: new to neurofeedback and confused

 

If you have a local Zengar practitioner, why not try a few sessions yourself?  You'll see what all the fuss is about when you either notice a difference in how you're feeling and dealing with events and people, or get started working with clients and notice the difference in how they feel and seem.  Or both.
 
Julie

----- Original Message -----
From: valbrownusa
Date: Saturday, November 7, 2009 6:13 pm
Subject: [neurofeedcommunity ] Re: new to neurofeedback and confused
To: neurofeedcommunity@ yahoogroups. com

> In some ways the choice is fairly easy. If you want an easy to
> use, essentially fail-safe system, that is diagnostically
> agnostic, works across the range and is "fault tolerant" then
> there really isn't any question. NeurOptimal by Zengar is the
> choice. If you haven't browsed our site -- www.zengar..com --
> that could be a very good place to start. You might also be
> interested in our user survey and, of course, more specific
> questions can be addressed to info@zengar. com, as well as in the
> zengapncp@yahoogrou ps.com forum (which you've also done).
>
> It is an interesting field and there are a lot of opinions out
> there but the bottom line really is very simple and easy. I
> hope that helps.
>
> val
> --- In neurofeedcommunity@ yahoogroups. com, "activemindandbody"
> wrote:
> >
> > Neurofeedback is still very small in Australia but I have been
> watching the research come out over the last few years and am
> impressed and the few guys who use it in my home town
> (Melbourne) do rave about it. I had my QEEG done last week to
> try and learn more and am doing the spectrum training in a few
> weeks and have looked at the zengar system.. But frankly still
> cannot see what all the fuss is about not sure if I am missing
> something and am totally confused about what system would be best.
> >
>
>
>


#1090 From: Dean Smith <activemindandbody@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:30 am
Subject: Re: Re: new to neurofeedback and confused
activemindan...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Thanks val, with the user survey how was this conducted and has there been much research done using neuroptimal for various conditions.
dean


From: valbrownusa <valdeanebrown@...>
To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, November 7, 2009 6:52:19 PM
Subject: [neurofeedcommunity] Re: new to neurofeedback and confused

 

In some ways the choice is fairly easy. If you want an easy to use, essentially fail-safe system, that is diagnostically agnostic, works across the range and is "fault tolerant" then there really isn't any question. NeurOptimal by Zengar is the choice. If you haven't browsed our site -- www.zengar.com -- that could be a very good place to start. You might also be interested in our user survey and, of course, more specific questions can be addressed to info@zengar. com, as well as in the zengapncp@yahoogrou ps.com forum (which you've also done).

It is an interesting field and there are a lot of opinions out there but the bottom line really is very simple and easy. I hope that helps.

val
--- In neurofeedcommunity@ yahoogroups. com, "activemindandbody" <activemindandbody@ ...> wrote:
>
> Neurofeedback is still very small in Australia but I have been watching the research come out over the last few years and am impressed and the few guys who use it in my home town (Melbourne) do rave about it. I had my QEEG done last week to try and learn more and am doing the spectrum training in a few weeks and have looked at the zengar system. But frankly still cannot see what all the fuss is about not sure if I am missing something and am totally confused about what system would be best.
>



#1089 From: "Valdeane W. Brown, Ph.D." <valdeanebrown@...>
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:28 pm
Subject: Re: Re: LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
valbrownusa
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
No current -- not in the zAmp that we developed and not when using TTL equipment with regular Flex Pro EEG pre-amps.  The EEG-Z pre-amps do send current down the line — under command from the software.  This is one of many reasons that we never endorsed the use of the EEG-Z pre-amps.  Not only did it violate my principle of not putting anything into the client, impedance checking is irrelevant, a legacy from maintaining the use of 60 year old DSP (digital signal processing) techniques to indirectly derive how much influence Line Noise will have on the signals coming from the Client.  Using JTFA (Joint Time-Frequency Analysis it isn’t necessary to attempt to derive that influence indirectly; rather, it can be measured precisely.


On 11/10/09 7:32 AM, "Gary" <garyames@...> wrote:


 
 
   

Val,
How much energy is used to detect line noise in the TT and the Z-amp?  I believe that some energy goes down the wires to detect impedence in other systems.
Gary Ames

--- In neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com <mailto:neurofeedcommunity%40yahoogroups.com> , "Valdeane W. Brown, Ph.D." <valdeanebrown@...> wrote:
>
> The best descriptor for what is now called the LENS approach is its original
> name: EEG-Driven Stimulation or EDS.  The fact is that, no matter how low
> the level, the mechanism is “invasive” in that the process puts energy into
> the tissue.  Hence, changes in the EEG are detected and then those changes
> “drive” the quality of the stimulation used.  In this sense LENS is
> philosophically the same (or similar to) the operative principle of using
> ANY form of stimulation to induce a change.  Whether or not the exact
> mechanism for that effect is known or accepted is irrelevant; it is in any
> event and “invasive” stimulus that is “put into” the CNS.  This reality has
> another consequence to it which is that it is clearly not information that
> is being conveyed to the CNS because, information can be conveyed in various
> forms.  In other feedback system, for instance, the user has at least a few
> choices as to what kind of audiovisual format will be used to convey the
> information that is fed back to the CNS.  Various beeps, or songs, or visual
> elements such as bar graphs, linegraphs, movies, etc, etc might be used to
> similar, if not exactly the same kind, of training effect.  This is simply
> not the case with LENS or any other stimulation-based system.  In those
> systems the stimulation must be crafted precisely in order to have its
> effect.
>
> val
>
>
> On 11/9/09 6:19 AM, "Len" <lochs@...> wrote:
>
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >    
> >
> > TMS is magnetic measured in Teslas; the LENS is electromagnetic field measured
> > in watts/cm2.
> > TMS works with a heavy magnetic field moving and releasing electrons in their
> > shells; nobody knows what the LENS mechanisms are as the power of the LENS is
> > trillionths of the power of TMS.
> >
> > TMS is a one-way stimulation with no measurement or two-way interaction with
> > the brain.  The LENS is a feedback system with measurement of the EEG
> > affecting what returns to the client -- although the LENS is not feedback in
> > any sense that many others would recognize or accept.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Len -- from Lima, Peru this morning.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >> >From: TedF <tedfackler@... <mailto:tedfackler%40gmail.com> >
> >> >Sent: Nov 7, 2009 2:18 PM
> >> >To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com <mailto:neurofeedcommunity%40yahoogroups.com>
> >> <mailto:neurofeedcommunity%40yahoogroups.com>
> >> >Subject: [neurofeedcommunity] LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
> >> >
> >> >Are these modalities similar?
> >> >
> >
> >  
> >    
> >
> >
>

 
   



#1088 From: "Gary" <garyames@...>
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:32 pm
Subject: Re: LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
garyamesnet
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Val,
How much energy is used to detect line noise in the TT and the Z-amp?  I believe
that some energy goes down the wires to detect impedence in other systems.
Gary Ames


--- In neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com, "Valdeane W. Brown, Ph.D."
<valdeanebrown@...> wrote:
>
> The best descriptor for what is now called the LENS approach is its original
> name: EEG-Driven Stimulation or EDS.  The fact is that, no matter how low
> the level, the mechanism is invasive in that the process puts energy into
> the tissue.  Hence, changes in the EEG are detected and then those changes
> drive the quality of the stimulation used.  In this sense LENS is
> philosophically the same (or similar to) the operative principle of using
> ANY form of stimulation to induce a change.  Whether or not the exact
> mechanism for that effect is known or accepted is irrelevant; it is in any
> event and invasive stimulus that is put into the CNS.  This reality has
> another consequence to it which is that it is clearly not information that
> is being conveyed to the CNS because, information can be conveyed in various
> forms.  In other feedback system, for instance, the user has at least a few
> choices as to what kind of audiovisual format will be used to convey the
> information that is fed back to the CNS.  Various beeps, or songs, or visual
> elements such as bar graphs, linegraphs, movies, etc, etc might be used to
> similar, if not exactly the same kind, of training effect.  This is simply
> not the case with LENS or any other stimulation-based system.  In those
> systems the stimulation must be crafted precisely in order to have its
> effect.
>
> val
>
>
> On 11/9/09 6:19 AM, "Len" <lochs@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > TMS is magnetic measured in Teslas; the LENS is electromagnetic field
measured
> > in watts/cm2.
> > TMS works with a heavy magnetic field moving and releasing electrons in
their
> > shells; nobody knows what the LENS mechanisms are as the power of the LENS
is
> > trillionths of the power of TMS.
> >
> > TMS is a one-way stimulation with no measurement or two-way interaction with
> > the brain.  The LENS is a feedback system with measurement of the EEG
> > affecting what returns to the client -- although the LENS is not feedback in
> > any sense that many others would recognize or accept.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Len -- from Lima, Peru this morning.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >> >From: TedF <tedfackler@... <mailto:tedfackler%40gmail.com> >
> >> >Sent: Nov 7, 2009 2:18 PM
> >> >To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
> >> <mailto:neurofeedcommunity%40yahoogroups.com>
> >> >Subject: [neurofeedcommunity] LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
> >> >
> >> >Are these modalities similar?
> >> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

#1087 From: "John" <forumnhtc@...>
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:32 am
Subject: Group Communication
thompson_jhn
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
A reminder that this group operates according to principles of nonviolent
communication.

Moderator

#1086 From: "Valdeane W. Brown, Ph.D." <valdeanebrown@...>
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:50 am
Subject: Re: LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
valbrownusa
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Len,

Why do you make comments like that Len?  You’re implying that I don’t understand what you’re doing in your software, nor its history.  It is very striking for you to make comments like that which are patently false.   And, yes, I’m glad that you hear wonderful things about our system.  Thanks for mentioning it.

Are you saying that you really don’t understand what I said below?  In the past you used to say that you did understand what I was saying.  Here are some points.

  1. The original name of your system was EDS, meaning EEG-Driven Stimulation.  That’s true isn’t it?
  2. Your system responds to changes in EEG that are of interest to your program by specifically crafting stimuli to send back down the sensors.  That’s true isn’t it?
  3. In that sense the system is “invasive”: cf, “2. involving puncture of the skin <no> or insertion of an instrument <not a physical instrument> or foreign <yes> material <force> into the body <direct effect not mediated as information>...” No matter how minute, the stimuli that you give via RF are “foreign” to the body and need to be specifically crafted moment by moment, when given — “no substitution allowed” to gloss the slogan on some diner walls.

Now I understand that you may not like those characterizations but they are accurate.  Is there something I’m missing?

val


On 11/9/09 4:37 PM, "Len" <lochs@...> wrote:


 
 
   

Val,

Seriously, though: talking with you about the LENS is like talking to a Northern European or Brit in the 15th century who didn't believe that black swans exist.  The conversation wouldn't and couldn't have been worthwhile.

I'm pleased to say I hear wonderful things about your system and wish you the best of everything.

Warmly,

Len

-----Original Message-----
>From: "Valdeane W. Brown, Ph.D." <valdeanebrown@... <mailto:valdeanebrown%40gmail.com> >
>Sent: Nov 9, 2009 9:33 AM
>To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com <mailto:neurofeedcommunity%40yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [neurofeedcommunity] LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
>
>The best descriptor for what is now called the LENS approach is its original
>name: EEG-Driven Stimulation or EDS.  The fact is that, no matter how low
>the level, the mechanism is ³invasive² in that the process puts energy into
>the tissue.  Hence, changes in the EEG are detected and then those changes
>³drive² the quality of the stimulation used.  In this sense LENS is
>philosophically the same (or similar to) the operative principle of using
>ANY form of stimulation to induce a change.  Whether or not the exact
>mechanism for that effect is known or accepted is irrelevant; it is in any
>event and ³invasive² stimulus that is ³put into² the CNS.  This reality has
>another consequence to it which is that it is clearly not information that
>is being conveyed to the CNS because, information can be conveyed in various
>forms.  In other feedback system, for instance, the user has at least a few
>choices as to what kind of audiovisual format will be used to convey the
>information that is fed back to the CNS.  Various beeps, or songs, or visual
>elements such as bar graphs, linegraphs, movies, etc, etc might be used to
>similar, if not exactly the same kind, of training effect.  This is simply
>not the case with LENS or any other stimulation-based system.  In those
>systems the stimulation must be crafted precisely in order to have its
>effect.
>
>val
>
>
>On 11/9/09 6:19 AM, "Len" <lochs@... <mailto:lochs%40earthlink.net> > wrote:
>
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>    
>>
>> TMS is magnetic measured in Teslas; the LENS is electromagnetic field measured
>> in watts/cm2.
>> TMS works with a heavy magnetic field moving and releasing electrons in their
>> shells; nobody knows what the LENS mechanisms are as the power of the LENS is
>> trillionths of the power of TMS.
>>
>> TMS is a one-way stimulation with no measurement or two-way interaction with
>> the brain.  The LENS is a feedback system with measurement of the EEG
>> affecting what returns to the client -- although the LENS is not feedback in
>> any sense that many others would recognize or accept.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Len -- from Lima, Peru this morning.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> >From: TedF <tedfackler@... <mailto:tedfackler%40gmail.com>  <mailto:tedfackler%40gmail.com> >
>>> >Sent: Nov 7, 2009 2:18 PM
>>> >To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com <mailto:neurofeedcommunity%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> <mailto:neurofeedcommunity%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> >Subject: [neurofeedcommunity] LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
>>> >
>>> >Are these modalities similar?
>>> >
>>
>>  
>>    
>>
>>
>

 
   



#1085 From: "Valdeane W. Brown, Ph.D." <valdeanebrown@...>
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:39 am
Subject: Re: LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
valbrownusa
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 



On 11/9/09 4:37 PM, "Len" <lochs@...> wrote:


 
 
   

Val,

Seriously, though: talking with you about the LENS is like talking to a Northern European or Brit in the 15th century who didn't believe that black swans exist.  The conversation wouldn't and couldn't have been worthwhile.

I'm pleased to say I hear wonderful things about your system and wish you the best of everything.

Warmly,

Len

-----Original Message-----
>From: "Valdeane W. Brown, Ph.D." <valdeanebrown@... <mailto:valdeanebrown%40gmail.com> >
>Sent: Nov 9, 2009 9:33 AM
>To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com <mailto:neurofeedcommunity%40yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [neurofeedcommunity] LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
>
>The best descriptor for what is now called the LENS approach is its original
>name: EEG-Driven Stimulation or EDS.  The fact is that, no matter how low
>the level, the mechanism is ³invasive² in that the process puts energy into
>the tissue.  Hence, changes in the EEG are detected and then those changes
>³drive² the quality of the stimulation used.  In this sense LENS is
>philosophically the same (or similar to) the operative principle of using
>ANY form of stimulation to induce a change.  Whether or not the exact
>mechanism for that effect is known or accepted is irrelevant; it is in any
>event and ³invasive² stimulus that is ³put into² the CNS.  This reality has
>another consequence to it which is that it is clearly not information that
>is being conveyed to the CNS because, information can be conveyed in various
>forms.  In other feedback system, for instance, the user has at least a few
>choices as to what kind of audiovisual format will be used to convey the
>information that is fed back to the CNS.  Various beeps, or songs, or visual
>elements such as bar graphs, linegraphs, movies, etc, etc might be used to
>similar, if not exactly the same kind, of training effect.  This is simply
>not the case with LENS or any other stimulation-based system.  In those
>systems the stimulation must be crafted precisely in order to have its
>effect.
>
>val
>
>
>On 11/9/09 6:19 AM, "Len" <lochs@... <mailto:lochs%40earthlink.net> > wrote:
>
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>    
>>
>> TMS is magnetic measured in Teslas; the LENS is electromagnetic field measured
>> in watts/cm2.
>> TMS works with a heavy magnetic field moving and releasing electrons in their
>> shells; nobody knows what the LENS mechanisms are as the power of the LENS is
>> trillionths of the power of TMS.
>>
>> TMS is a one-way stimulation with no measurement or two-way interaction with
>> the brain.  The LENS is a feedback system with measurement of the EEG
>> affecting what returns to the client -- although the LENS is not feedback in
>> any sense that many others would recognize or accept.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Len -- from Lima, Peru this morning.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> >From: TedF <tedfackler@... <mailto:tedfackler%40gmail.com>  <mailto:tedfackler%40gmail.com> >
>>> >Sent: Nov 7, 2009 2:18 PM
>>> >To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com <mailto:neurofeedcommunity%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> <mailto:neurofeedcommunity%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> >Subject: [neurofeedcommunity] LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
>>> >
>>> >Are these modalities similar?
>>> >
>>
>>  
>>    
>>
>>
>

 
   



#1084 From: Len <lochs@...>
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:37 am
Subject: Re: LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
len_ochs
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Val,

Seriously, though: talking with you about the LENS is like talking to a Northern
European or Brit in the 15th century who didn't believe that black swans exist. 
The conversation wouldn't and couldn't have been worthwhile.

I'm pleased to say I hear wonderful things about your system and wish you the
best of everything.

Warmly,

Len

-----Original Message-----
>From: "Valdeane W. Brown, Ph.D." <valdeanebrown@...>
>Sent: Nov 9, 2009 9:33 AM
>To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [neurofeedcommunity] LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
>
>The best descriptor for what is now called the LENS approach is its original
>name: EEG-Driven Stimulation or EDS.  The fact is that, no matter how low
>the level, the mechanism is ³invasive² in that the process puts energy into
>the tissue.  Hence, changes in the EEG are detected and then those changes
>³drive² the quality of the stimulation used.  In this sense LENS is
>philosophically the same (or similar to) the operative principle of using
>ANY form of stimulation to induce a change.  Whether or not the exact
>mechanism for that effect is known or accepted is irrelevant; it is in any
>event and ³invasive² stimulus that is ³put into² the CNS.  This reality has
>another consequence to it which is that it is clearly not information that
>is being conveyed to the CNS because, information can be conveyed in various
>forms.  In other feedback system, for instance, the user has at least a few
>choices as to what kind of audiovisual format will be used to convey the
>information that is fed back to the CNS.  Various beeps, or songs, or visual
>elements such as bar graphs, linegraphs, movies, etc, etc might be used to
>similar, if not exactly the same kind, of training effect.  This is simply
>not the case with LENS or any other stimulation-based system.  In those
>systems the stimulation must be crafted precisely in order to have its
>effect.
>
>val
>
>
>On 11/9/09 6:19 AM, "Len" <lochs@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> TMS is magnetic measured in Teslas; the LENS is electromagnetic field
measured
>> in watts/cm2.
>> TMS works with a heavy magnetic field moving and releasing electrons in their
>> shells; nobody knows what the LENS mechanisms are as the power of the LENS is
>> trillionths of the power of TMS.
>>
>> TMS is a one-way stimulation with no measurement or two-way interaction with
>> the brain.  The LENS is a feedback system with measurement of the EEG
>> affecting what returns to the client -- although the LENS is not feedback in
>> any sense that many others would recognize or accept.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Len -- from Lima, Peru this morning.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> >From: TedF <tedfackler@... <mailto:tedfackler%40gmail.com> >
>>> >Sent: Nov 7, 2009 2:18 PM
>>> >To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
>>> <mailto:neurofeedcommunity%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> >Subject: [neurofeedcommunity] LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
>>> >
>>> >Are these modalities similar?
>>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

#1083 From: Len <lochs@...>
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:14 am
Subject: Re: LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
len_ochs
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Val,

I'll treasure this response forever.  I can find no meaning in your words.

Len

-----Original Message-----
>From: "Valdeane W. Brown, Ph.D." <valdeanebrown@...>
>Sent: Nov 9, 2009 9:33 AM
>To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [neurofeedcommunity] LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
>
>The best descriptor for what is now called the LENS approach is its original
>name: EEG-Driven Stimulation or EDS.  The fact is that, no matter how low
>the level, the mechanism is ³invasive² in that the process puts energy into
>the tissue.  Hence, changes in the EEG are detected and then those changes
>³drive² the quality of the stimulation used.  In this sense LENS is
>philosophically the same (or similar to) the operative principle of using
>ANY form of stimulation to induce a change.  Whether or not the exact
>mechanism for that effect is known or accepted is irrelevant; it is in any
>event and ³invasive² stimulus that is ³put into² the CNS.  This reality has
>another consequence to it which is that it is clearly not information that
>is being conveyed to the CNS because, information can be conveyed in various
>forms.  In other feedback system, for instance, the user has at least a few
>choices as to what kind of audiovisual format will be used to convey the
>information that is fed back to the CNS.  Various beeps, or songs, or visual
>elements such as bar graphs, linegraphs, movies, etc, etc might be used to
>similar, if not exactly the same kind, of training effect.  This is simply
>not the case with LENS or any other stimulation-based system.  In those
>systems the stimulation must be crafted precisely in order to have its
>effect.
>
>val
>
>
>On 11/9/09 6:19 AM, "Len" <lochs@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> TMS is magnetic measured in Teslas; the LENS is electromagnetic field
measured
>> in watts/cm2.
>> TMS works with a heavy magnetic field moving and releasing electrons in their
>> shells; nobody knows what the LENS mechanisms are as the power of the LENS is
>> trillionths of the power of TMS.
>>
>> TMS is a one-way stimulation with no measurement or two-way interaction with
>> the brain.  The LENS is a feedback system with measurement of the EEG
>> affecting what returns to the client -- although the LENS is not feedback in
>> any sense that many others would recognize or accept.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Len -- from Lima, Peru this morning.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> >From: TedF <tedfackler@... <mailto:tedfackler%40gmail.com> >
>>> >Sent: Nov 7, 2009 2:18 PM
>>> >To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
>>> <mailto:neurofeedcommunity%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> >Subject: [neurofeedcommunity] LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
>>> >
>>> >Are these modalities similar?
>>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

#1082 From: "Valdeane W. Brown, Ph.D." <valdeanebrown@...>
Date: Mon Nov 9, 2009 5:33 pm
Subject: Re: LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
valbrownusa
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The best descriptor for what is now called the LENS approach is its original name: EEG-Driven Stimulation or EDS.  The fact is that, no matter how low the level, the mechanism is “invasive” in that the process puts energy into the tissue.  Hence, changes in the EEG are detected and then those changes “drive” the quality of the stimulation used.  In this sense LENS is philosophically the same (or similar to) the operative principle of using ANY form of stimulation to induce a change.  Whether or not the exact mechanism for that effect is known or accepted is irrelevant; it is in any event and “invasive” stimulus that is “put into” the CNS.  This reality has another consequence to it which is that it is clearly not information that is being conveyed to the CNS because, information can be conveyed in various forms.  In other feedback system, for instance, the user has at least a few choices as to what kind of audiovisual format will be used to convey the information that is fed back to the CNS.  Various beeps, or songs, or visual elements such as bar graphs, linegraphs, movies, etc, etc might be used to similar, if not exactly the same kind, of training effect.  This is simply not the case with LENS or any other stimulation-based system.  In those systems the stimulation must be crafted precisely in order to have its effect.

val


On 11/9/09 6:19 AM, "Len" <lochs@...> wrote:


 
 
   

TMS is magnetic measured in Teslas; the LENS is electromagnetic field measured in watts/cm2.
TMS works with a heavy magnetic field moving and releasing electrons in their shells; nobody knows what the LENS mechanisms are as the power of the LENS is trillionths of the power of TMS.

TMS is a one-way stimulation with no measurement or two-way interaction with the brain.  The LENS is a feedback system with measurement of the EEG affecting what returns to the client -- although the LENS is not feedback in any sense that many others would recognize or accept.

Best,

Len -- from Lima, Peru this morning.

-----Original Message-----
>From: TedF <tedfackler@... <mailto:tedfackler%40gmail.com> >
>Sent: Nov 7, 2009 2:18 PM
>To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com <mailto:neurofeedcommunity%40yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [neurofeedcommunity] LENS neurofeedback vs. TMS
>
>Are these modalities similar?
>

 
   



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