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#1012 From: "michfrosch" <michfrosch@...>
Date: Thu May 28, 2009 12:36 am
Subject: zengar 		michfrosch
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Send Email Send Email
  
Hi, I have done alot of research on neurofeedback and I keep returning to the

zengar Institute. I do not currently do neurofeedback but It only makes sense to

go with zengar. my question is: Who has used other systems and is currently

using zengar and would you go with any other system at this point?


Reply | Forward
#1013 From: molly.neuro@...
Date: Thu May 28, 2009 1:54 am
Subject: Re: zengar 		raaymakers_m...
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Thanks for asking! You'll find many of us have used multiple systems over the years, myself included. I have not used any system other than Zengar for many years now. My main reason being that as I piloted efficiency in symptom resolution, outcomes and data comprehension throughout the late 1990's- 2004, Zengar's software always came out on top clinically by a long shot. Additionally, I am able to consistently troubleshoot extrinsic variables, which I find do not stand out as clearly within data generated and displayed on other softwares. The reliability and thoroughness of the training via programming methods has also surpassed other systems capabilities, and my own expectations clinically. I do not have abreaction worries with zengar.

I really enjoy how user friendly the system has gotten to be - outside of my clinical practice, my son started self-training at age 8!! Very effectively. How extraordinary for a child to experience his own ability and exclaim "mom, my brain feels awesome now!"

The convenience of zAmp has really opened up my flexibilty/portability. My flights are much more enjoyable... Very easy to train en route and be refreshed when I land.

It's also been quite interesting to observe the degrees of flexibility, happiness and endurance across the clinicians and users of the various groups as I attend conferences (ISNR, Futurehealth, etc). There has been a noteworthy difference that I see reflected in those who use train on NeurOptimal. This too helped me choose Zengar.

Enjoy your up-coming venture!

Molly Raaymakers
www.michiganBrain.com

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

From: "michfrosch"
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 00:36:55 -0000
To: <neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [neurofeedcommunity] zengar

Hi, I have done alot of research on neurofeedback and I keep returning to the zengar Institute. I do not currently do neurofeedback but It only makes sense to go with zengar. my question is: Who has used other systems and is currently using zengar and would you go with any other system at this point?


Reply | Forward
#1015 From: Karen Shue <kshue@...>
Date: Thu May 28, 2009 4:44 pm
Subject: Re: extrinsic variable 		drklshue
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Hi Molly:

Perhaps this is more of a Zengar list question, but I'm wondering if you might share more about what you look for/see in the data as indicators of extrinsic variables?

Thanks!

Karen

molly.neuro@... wrote:

...

I am able to consistently troubleshoot extrinsic variables, which I find do not stand out as clearly within data generated and displayed on other softwares.


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#1016 From: molly.neuro@...
Date: Fri May 29, 2009 2:29 pm
Subject: Re: extrinsic variable 		raaymakers_m...
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Respiratory is the and I say that strongly THE biggest extrinsic variable I see slow brain function. I have some prior postings I'll dig up and send to you later on with more detail.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

From: Karen Shue
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 12:44:21 -0400
To: <neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [neurofeedcommunity] extrinsic variable

Hi Molly:

Perhaps this is more of a Zengar list question, but I'm wondering if you might share more about what you look for/see in the data as indicators of extrinsic variables?

Thanks!

Karen

molly.neuro@sbcglobal.net wrote:


...

I am able to consistently troubleshoot extrinsic variables, which I find do not stand out as clearly within data generated and displayed on other softwares.


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#1018 From: "Val Brown" <valdeanebrown@...>
Date: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:14 am
Subject: Re: extrinsic variable 		valbrownusa
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Send Email Send Email
  
Molly,



While I'm sure that respiratory-related issues can serve as extrinsic

constraints I wouldn't refer to the their effect as "slow<ing> brain function". 

It's not the the EEG "slows", although that may (or may not) be apparent in some

ways of looking at the data.  Rather, it's more that the emergent variability in

the EEG is greatly increased and that occurs in a non-averaged, pseudo-random

fashion.  What appears as "slowing" of the EEG  is one of the effects of the

increased turbulence and emergent variability, not the inverse.



val



--- In neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com, molly.neuro@... wrote:

>

> Respiratory is the and I say that strongly THE biggest extrinsic variable I

see slow brain function.  I have some prior postings I'll dig up and send to you

later on with more detail.

> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Karen Shue <kshue@...>

>

> Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 12:44:21

> To: <neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com>

> Subject: Re: [neurofeedcommunity] extrinsic variable

>

>

> Hi Molly:

>

> Perhaps this is more of a Zengar list question, but I'm wondering if you

> might share more about what you look for/see in the data as indicators

> of extrinsic variables?

>

> Thanks!

>

> Karen

>

> molly.neuro@... wrote:

> >

> > ...

> >

> > I am able to consistently troubleshoot extrinsic variables, which I

> > find do not stand out as clearly within data generated and displayed

> > on other softwares.

> >

>


Reply | Forward
#1019 From: Raaymakers Molly <molly.neuro@...>
Date: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:18 pm
Subject: Re: Re: extrinsic variable 		raaymakers_m...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Yes, when i noted slowing brain function i was refering to how folks describe the observable clinical symptoms they feel such as lethargy, ADD, feeling mentally 'slow' as thoughts don't seem to connect as rapidly, mentally tasks take longer to complete.  I did not clarify this on the post. 
I wasn't refering to the data/EEG as being impacted by speed, nor have i ever considered that was even possible...that seems a mute point; though i was not clear in stating this.  What i typically see is as you note an increase in CCAC measures (usually a significant increasing pattern across a period of time/sessions, which correlates to increasing symptom complaints during that time, as one would expect).  Within Western Michigan i seem to have an abundance of opportunity to capture these connections, as over the years I've been training with NF (67%-80%) of my clients' data increase and decrease in emergent variability during the same correlated seasonal periods (estimated tracking of my cases annually across the last 8 years).  Correlating symptoms vary within these clients,  yet the data patterns have been relatively consistent in changing towards less organized CCAC data with increased seasonal extrinsic effects; more organized CCAC data as seasonal extrinsics minimize.  

--- On Thu, 6/18/09, Val Brown <valdeanebrown@...> wrote:

From: Val Brown <valdeanebrown@...>
Subject: [neurofeedcommunity] Re: extrinsic variable
To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 8:14 PM

Molly,

While I'm sure that respiratory- related issues can serve as extrinsic constraints I wouldn't refer to the their effect as "slow<ing> brain function". It's not the the EEG "slows", although that may (or may not) be apparent in some ways of looking at the data. Rather, it's more that the emergent variability in the EEG is greatly increased and that occurs in a non-averaged, pseudo-random fashion. What appears as "slowing" of the EEG is one of the effects of the increased turbulence and emergent variability, not the inverse.

val

--- In neurofeedcommunity@ yahoogroups. com, molly.neuro@ ... wrote:
>
> Respiratory is the and I say that strongly THE biggest extrinsic variable I see slow brain function. I have some prior postings I'll dig up and send to you later on with more detail.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Karen Shue <kshue@...>
>
> Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 12:44:21
> To: <neurofeedcommunity@ yahoogroups. com>
> Subject: Re: [neurofeedcommunity ] extrinsic variable
>
>
> Hi Molly:
>
> Perhaps this is more of a Zengar list question, but I'm wondering if you
> might share more about what you look for/see in the data as indicators
> of extrinsic variables?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Karen
>
> molly.neuro@ ... wrote:
> >
> > ...
> >
> > I am able to consistently troubleshoot extrinsic variables, which I
> > find do not stand out as clearly within data generated and displayed
> > on other softwares.
> >
>


Reply | Forward
#1020 From: Julie Weiner <jweiner123@...>
Date: Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:28 am
Subject: Re: Re: extrinsic variable 		biofeedbackw...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
By the way, one of my very young clients' gastroenterologists told his

mother that severe behavior problems are typical of children with

colitis.  The child has been given the antihistamine Singulaire with

wonderful effects on not only his gut, but his behavior (at least when

combined with neurofeedback and very strict attention to his diet).  And

another child, with rectification of asthma and sinusitis (Mom has made

major changes in the child's diet, including by the way acidophilus which

can, interestingly, be helpful with sinusitus) is doing wonderfully well

lately at school compared to only weeks ago.  Neurofeedback, nutrition,

(and a bit of EFT or neurofeedback when possible for the parents to help

them lower their own reactivity and PTSD from dealing with terrifyingly

out-of-control children, when I only the child is covered for my services)

have been combined for amazing improvements in behavior over a period of

only a few months.



Julie





On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:18:48 -0400, Raaymakers Molly

<molly.neuro@...> wrote:



> Yes, when i noted slowing brain function i was refering to how folks

> describe the observable clinical symptoms they feel such as lethargy,

> ADD, feeling mentally 'slow' as thoughts don't seem to connect as

> rapidly, mentally tasks take longer to complete.  I did not clarify this

> on the post. 

> I wasn't refering to the data/EEG as being impacted by speed, nor have i

> ever considered that was even possible...that seems a mute point; though

> i was not clear in stating this.  What i typically see is as you note an

> increase in CCAC measures (usually a significant increasing pattern

> across a period of time/sessions, which correlates to increasing symptom

> complaints during that time, as one would expect).  Within Western

> Michigan i seem to have an abundance of opportunity to capture these

> connections, as over the years I've been training with NF (67%-80%) of

> my clients' data increase and decrease in emergent variability during

> the same correlated seasonal periods (estimated tracking of my

> cases annually across the last 8 years).  Correlating symptoms

> vary within these clients,  yet the data patterns have been relatively

> consistent in changing towards less organized CCAC data with increased

> seasonal extrinsic effects; more organized CCAC

>  data as seasonal extrinsics minimize.  

>

> --- On Thu, 6/18/09, Val Brown <valdeanebrown@...> wrote:

>

>

> From: Val Brown <valdeanebrown@...>

> Subject: [neurofeedcommunity] Re: extrinsic variable

> To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com

> Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 8:14 PM

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Molly,

>

> While I'm sure that respiratory- related issues can serve as extrinsic

> constraints I wouldn't refer to the their effect as "slow<ing> brain

> function". It's not the the EEG "slows", although that may (or may not)

> be apparent in some ways of looking at the data. Rather, it's more that

> the emergent variability in the EEG is greatly increased and that occurs

> in a non-averaged, pseudo-random fashion. What appears as "slowing" of

> the EEG is one of the effects of the increased turbulence and emergent

> variability, not the inverse.

>

> val

>

> --- In neurofeedcommunity@ yahoogroups. com, molly.neuro@ ... wrote:

>>

>> Respiratory is the and I say that strongly THE biggest extrinsic

>> variable I see slow brain function. I have some prior postings I'll dig

>> up and send to you later on with more detail.

>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

>>

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: Karen Shue <kshue@...>

>>

>> Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 12:44:21

>> To: <neurofeedcommunity@ yahoogroups. com>

>> Subject: Re: [neurofeedcommunity ] extrinsic variable

>>

>>

>> Hi Molly:

>>

>> Perhaps this is more of a Zengar list question, but I'm wondering if you

>> might share more about what you look for/see in the data as indicators

>> of extrinsic variables?

>>

>> Thanks!

>>

>> Karen

>>

>> molly.neuro@ ... wrote:

>> >

>> > ...

>> >

>> > I am able to consistently troubleshoot extrinsic variables, which I

>> > find do not stand out as clearly within data generated and displayed

>> > on other softwares.

>> >

>>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>







--

Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/



No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.81/2189 - Release Date: 06/20/09

06:15:00


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#1014 From: Michael Andes <mandes@...>
Date: Thu May 28, 2009 2:55 pm
Subject: Re: zengar 		mandes@...
Send Email Send Email
  
Hello,

I do not qualify as someone who has used other systems.  I can only

testify that my clients continue to get positive

results from Zengar... I'm personally distrustful of ANY system that

introduces something into the brain.   I respect

and appreciate the non-invasive nature of Zengar.   That fact is also a

source of reassurance to my clients...



Michael Andes, LMSW

Ann Arbor, MI



On May 27, 2009, at 8:36 PM, michfrosch wrote:



>

>

> Hi, I have done alot of research on neurofeedback and I keep returning

> to the zengar Institute. I do not currently do neurofeedback but It

> only makes sense to go with zengar. my question is: Who has used other

> systems and is currently using zengar and would you go with any other

> system at this point?

>

>

>

---



Michael Andes


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