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my GSR (SCL) cannot be trained   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #197 of 1127 |
RE: [neurofeedcommunity] Re: my GSR (SCL) cannot be trained

Martin Said “. I don't think it is wise to discuss this at length over the list and bore other people with our differnce in viewpoint”

 

Martin I am not bored with this exchange.

John

 

From: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com [mailto:neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martijn Arns
Sent: Wednesday, 26 March 2008 8:13 AM
To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [neurofeedcommunity] Re: my GSR (SCL) cannot be trained

 

Val,

 

I think you are reversing some things. I don't think it is wise to discuss this at length over the list and bore other people with our differnce in viewpoint, if you really want to get to an understanding on this topic let's continue this off list and we'll post our outcomes once we agree on things.

 

One last thing I want to mention is that I don't only BELIEVE, since I have provided published data to back my ideas. All you put forward is based on BELIEVE and no data.

 

 

 

Martijn

 


From: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com [mailto:neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Val Brown
Sent: dinsdag 25 maart 2008 18:46
To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [neurofeedcommunity] Re: my GSR (SCL) cannot be trained

Martijn:

You make my points for me, esp re: the differences between our overall approach.

You BELIEVE that separating out point sources is critically important in providing
neurofeedback training. That is a BELIEF. You could actually TEST that belief by simply
performing a "head to head" comparison of your guided approach and the default,
recommended way of working in NeuroCARE. It would be an easy comparison to setup as
we have very competent practitioners there in Holland who could be involved.

Why not do that and actually settle it?

Single point localization CAN be derived using JTFA-based techniques alone. The overall
methodology to do so is well known and is frequently employed in localizing earthquake
epicenters as well as oil pipeline failure points from a distance with only two sources. In
many cases only one source is needed, depending on the kind of signal-base involved.

But that all begs the question because it returns us to YOUR core BELIEF: viz, that
localization is CRITICALLY important. Our users point out everyday with their results that
such a BELIEF is unwarranted.

Different etiologies may -- or may NOT -- necessitate different treatments and that also
goes to the issue of whether or not neurofeedback is inherently a treatment. Meditation
has been used successfully in a number of different contexts that others have seen as
being like a "treatment" because of reported symptom remediation. This includes blood
pressure changes, respiratory improvement, etc. Similarly aerobic exercise is well known
for its salutory effects on cardio-vascular status as well as a variety of diagnosable
conditions. That doesn't make either meditation or aerobic exercise a medical treatment -
- even when they have clear, demonstrable health-related outcomes. And those
outcomes "cross over" diagnostic groupings.

So the BELIEF that different etiologies or different phenomenologies REQUIRE different
approaches is simply not so. In many cases for many diagnoses these kinds of distinctions
ARE critically important but that doesn't mean that the distinctions are always and
everywhere critically important.

If you're interested in setting up a collaborative "head to head" kind of study please let me
know. I'd be happy to facilitate that. That has been my position all along and it remains
my position today. It also remains interesting that no one has agreed to actually do such a
study collaboratively -- esp not those who have continued to criticize me over the years.

Why not just do the study?

val



Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:32 am

thompson_jhn
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Message #197 of 1127 |
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Martijn we invited you to a workshop which was especially organised for 'traditional" trainers like you, that have a lot of questionable and incorrect negative...
Ineke Peters
petersineke
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Mar 26, 2008
9:30 am

Martin Said ". I don't think it is wise to discuss this at length over the list and bore other people with our differnce in viewpoint" Martin I am not bored...
John Thompson
thompson_jhn
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Mar 26, 2008
12:32 am

Being a layperson, I can only say that I wish there were consensus on these matters. I have heard it all. One site vs. Many. So and so is a genius, no, he...
JWH
hooper_jw
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Mar 26, 2008
4:49 am

John: You and me -- and a whole bunch of other people -- wish exactly the same thing. I've been actively re-involved in the field of neurofeedback for over 18...
Val Brown
valbrownusa
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Mar 26, 2008
6:16 am

John Hooper, You are a breath of fresh and honest air in an atmosphere that frequently is over-heated and sometimes downright nasty. I wish you the very...
Gordon Maclean
gdmaclean2
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Mar 26, 2008
5:53 am

John, Thanks for your constructive post! I would indeed prefer not to get into genius, quacks etc. but rather have a content based conversation, to further all...
Martijn Arns
martijnarns
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Mar 26, 2008
9:38 am

Martijn: So does that mean that you want to actually do a joint, "head-to-head" comparison study? I still haven't heard you say a simple yes to that. val...
Val Brown
valbrownusa
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Mar 26, 2008
2:25 pm

Ineke, You know very well what the reasons were for that. To fill in the missing information here: - we had an initial very constructive meeting with...
Martijn Arns
martijnarns
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Mar 26, 2008
9:48 am

In this field, I think that any explanation for how anything works could be argued infinitely. Some very respectable neurologists have called EEG nothing but...
John Hooper
hooper_jw
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Mar 26, 2008
2:01 pm

Hi, The useful facts come from experimentation. hmm. I use neurocare in an office where I have very very happy clients and a waiting list. why would I care...
parisprints2002
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Mar 26, 2008
3:22 pm

I wasn't suggesting that practitioners experiment. If you have something that works consistently, there is no need to change what you are doing. Research...
John Hooper
hooper_jw
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Mar 26, 2008
4:06 pm

and I am not suggesting that val experiments. I AM suggesting that he get back to work on 2.0 and autonav :-), right after he gets over being bossed around:-)....
parisprints2002
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Mar 26, 2008
5:03 pm

Meg et al: I've never not been working on v2 and, esp AutoNav. And I also don't really get "bossed around", but I suspect that's pretty obvious to most...
Val Brown
valbrownusa
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Mar 26, 2008
8:19 pm

Meg et al: I've never not been working on v2 and, esp AutoNav. And I also don't really get "bossed around", but I suspect that's pretty obvious to most...
Val Brown
valbrownusa
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Mar 26, 2008
8:20 pm

I am just entertaining myself :-) Meg ... don't really get "bossed ... this point.... ;-) ... suggesting that he get back to ... around:-)....
parisprints2002
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Mar 26, 2008
8:37 pm

BTW I was sitting next to a government worker (on a long plane ride) who was part of a group who set government regulation policies re insurance. He studied...
parisprints2002
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Mar 26, 2008
4:09 pm

Martijn: Actually it was you and those in your group that refused to collaborate and persisted for two years in spreading lies about me and NeuroCARE. That...
Val Brown
valbrownusa
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Mar 26, 2008
2:38 pm

Hi Martijn: I can't help but respond to this bit: - I did look at the results from your practice but they were not compared to anything so it was very...
Karen Shue
drklshue
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Mar 26, 2008
8:34 pm

Hi Martijn et al Martijin You said "So when can we continue based on CONTENT? Why can't anyone explain how NCP really works or are we all not smart enough to...
John Thompson
thompson_jhn
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Mar 27, 2008
4:04 am

Hi John, Thank you for your cogent response. It definitely allows us to shift to a "meta-understanding" of the difficulties traditional and non-traditional EEG...
Dr. Sue Brown
zengarhealer
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Mar 27, 2008
11:00 pm

That had not occurred to me as a possibility for this forum and it would be wonderful. Nonlinear Dynamical Systems theory has so much to offer in...
John Thompson
thompson_jhn
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Mar 28, 2008
4:10 am

I think it would be wonderful to have this forum as a come-to-my-mailbox place to hear more about NDS theory and its application to the brain and ...
Karen Shue
drklshue
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Mar 28, 2008
2:07 pm

my fingers crossed too. Meg ... mailbox ... brain and ... it ... underlying ... process ... Sue Brown ... trained ... the ... times ... think ... NLD as ... ...
parisprints2002
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Mar 28, 2008
2:40 pm

That's a very exciting idea, bringing NDS information to this forum. Pertinent to our work and to so many systems we are part of, internally, externally,...
Catherine Boyer
catherine.boyer
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Mar 28, 2008
3:25 pm

Hi John, I am really glad you chose to post here. We truly welcome diversity of any sort. The only thing we would moderate here (apart from mass advertising),...
Dr. Sue Brown
zengarhealer
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Mar 28, 2008
6:42 pm

Meg wrote in response to reproduceable and validated eficcacy issues of neurofeedback... The useful facts come from experimentation. Hmm. I use neurocare in an...
carlton
quietflow
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Mar 30, 2008
11:54 pm

Hello Aiceann, I thoroughly enjoyed that post especially the last part :-). I am lucky that I don't work in a large hospital or center. I have to convince IME...
parisprints2002
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Mar 31, 2008
1:42 am

Hello Aiceann, I thoroughly enjoyed that post especially the last part :-). I am lucky that I don't work in a large hospital or center. I have to convince IME...
parisprints2002
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Mar 31, 2008
1:43 am

BTW Aliceann did I mention how wonderful it is to see you here !! I have decided to take a vacation from bio but would have missed your voice and here you are...
parisprints2002
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Mar 31, 2008
1:52 am

Lol...Meg I joined this group quite a while ago because I like the philosophy of Neurocare and the people who are involved with it . I haven't been much of a...
carlton
quietflow
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Mar 31, 2008
5:36 am
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