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my GSR (SCL) cannot be trained   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #193 of 1127 |
RE: [neurofeedcommunity] Re: my GSR (SCL) cannot be trained

Val,

 

When we are talking about disorders such as ADHD there are different causes of ADHD, which is evidenced by the medication response.

In QEEG guided NF that is also exactly the case, a different underlying neuropathology requires a different treatment approach that makes a lot of sense. In Johnstone et al. 2005 this is explained in a lot of detail for both medication response but also Neurofeedback response.

 

To further proof that personalizing treatment works - not only for medication - we have done the same with magnetic brain stimulation, with amazing results. We’re in the process of publishing this, but personalizing magnetic brain stimulation based on the QEEG leads to very high efficacy as well (> 85% remission in 20 sessions; > 65% reduction in BDI scores in 15 sessions). In traditional ‘non-personalized’ rTMS these rates are much lower (< 50-60%).

 

For NF there is another study which will be published shortly in the AAPB journal on QEEG guided NF in Dyslexia by Breteler et al.

 

So yes, enough concurrent and published evidence and still working on it!

Only very unfortunate that there is zero data for NCP to compare efficacies with… only subjective experiences.

 

Regarding your 2 responses to methodology: Very interesting, however please explain to me how you can dissociate different sources based on 1 or 2 channels? The slowed Alpha Peak Frequency parietal will lead to increased slow content in frontal channels, which in that case is NOT theta. These 2 sub-types require a completely different treatment both medication wise but also NF wise.

How can your algorithms dissociate these 2? This is virtually impossible based on 2 EEG channels…

 

But anyway, I think we will remain to differ in opinion…

 

Kind regards,
 
Martijn Arns
Director / QEEG Diplomat

Brainclinics Diagnostics B.V.
Brainclinics Treatment B.V.
Toernooiveld 100
6525 EC Nijmegen
The Netherlands
 
Tel: +31(0)24-7503505
GSM: +31(0)6-48177919
Fax: +31(0)24-8901447
 
E-mail:
martijn@...
URL:
www.brainclinics.com 


From: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com [mailto:neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Val Brown
Sent: dinsdag 25 maart 2008 17:16
To: neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [neurofeedcommunity] Re: my GSR (SCL) cannot be trained

 

Martijn:

I'm sure you are continually publishing what you're doing -- that's
your primary area of interest. And, if I'm not mistaken, what your
current paper shows is a possible role for QEEG in predicing
medication response -- not exactly the same thing as demonstrating
incremental efficacy/efficiency of two or more different approaches
to neurofeedback. Personalized MEDICINE is a good name for what you
do IMO because you are clearly committed to a MEDICAL procedure under
medical/professional supervision -- and that is certainly appropriate
re: the use of medication.

One of our major points of disagreement concerns your belief that
neurofeedback MUST be seen -- and regulated -- as a
medical/professional procedure. I disagree with that, except in re:
to the kinds of approaches you use and support. Those probably are
best done by licensed healthcare practitioners. They have a far
higher side-effect profile and require considerable expertise.

Re: your point that: "Furthermore, we also show very clearly that
simply relying on filters (linear or non-linear) or single locations
you will intermix the 2 most important sub-types, namely the frontal
slow and slowed Alpha Peak Frequency" there are two major,
interesting responses:

1. We don't use just "linear or non-linear" filters (as you call
them). Our unique Targeting procedure uses Adaptive JTFA, adaptive in-
line de-noising as well non-linear control procedures. Quite a bit
different from what you might have tested.
2. There is a belief underlying what you do: viz, that separating out
these various "sub-types" is important. In re: to some classes of
medications that is likely true; however, in re: to neurofeedback it
clearly isn't true -- at least when done using our method and
software.

Why not publish elsewhere? My question is: why publish? I'll let
others do that. I have more important things to go re: the software
itself.

val



Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:07 pm

martijnarns
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All of this is wonderful, except it does not fit the non-linear dynamical paradigm at all. Doing such up-front analyses does not make sense. It's like...
Dr. Sue Brown
zengarhealer
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Mar 29, 2008
3:10 am

Val, When we are talking about disorders such as ADHD there are different causes of ADHD, which is evidenced by the medication response. In QEEG guided NF that...
Martijn Arns
martijnarns
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Mar 25, 2008
5:10 pm

Martijn: You make my points for me, esp re: the differences between our overall approach. You BELIEVE that separating out point sources is critically important...
Val Brown
valbrownusa
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Mar 25, 2008
5:35 pm

Val, I think you are reversing some things. I don't think it is wise to discuss this at length over the list and bore other people with our differnce in...
Martijn Arns
martijnarns
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Mar 25, 2008
11:13 pm

Martijn: Again, this is a place where we disagree and where, IMO, you are specifically misstating some things. To say that another way, it's not me who's got...
Val Brown
valbrownusa
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Mar 25, 2008
11:42 pm

Martijn we invited you to a workshop which was especially organised for 'traditional" trainers like you, that have a lot of questionable and incorrect negative...
Ineke Peters
petersineke
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Mar 26, 2008
9:30 am

Martin Said ". I don't think it is wise to discuss this at length over the list and bore other people with our differnce in viewpoint" Martin I am not bored...
John Thompson
thompson_jhn
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Mar 26, 2008
12:32 am

Being a layperson, I can only say that I wish there were consensus on these matters. I have heard it all. One site vs. Many. So and so is a genius, no, he...
JWH
hooper_jw
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Mar 26, 2008
4:49 am

John: You and me -- and a whole bunch of other people -- wish exactly the same thing. I've been actively re-involved in the field of neurofeedback for over 18...
Val Brown
valbrownusa
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Mar 26, 2008
6:16 am

John Hooper, You are a breath of fresh and honest air in an atmosphere that frequently is over-heated and sometimes downright nasty. I wish you the very...
Gordon Maclean
gdmaclean2
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Mar 26, 2008
5:53 am

John, Thanks for your constructive post! I would indeed prefer not to get into genius, quacks etc. but rather have a content based conversation, to further all...
Martijn Arns
martijnarns
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Mar 26, 2008
9:38 am

Martijn: So does that mean that you want to actually do a joint, "head-to-head" comparison study? I still haven't heard you say a simple yes to that. val...
Val Brown
valbrownusa
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Mar 26, 2008
2:25 pm

Ineke, You know very well what the reasons were for that. To fill in the missing information here: - we had an initial very constructive meeting with...
Martijn Arns
martijnarns
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Mar 26, 2008
9:48 am

In this field, I think that any explanation for how anything works could be argued infinitely. Some very respectable neurologists have called EEG nothing but...
John Hooper
hooper_jw
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Mar 26, 2008
2:01 pm

Hi, The useful facts come from experimentation. hmm. I use neurocare in an office where I have very very happy clients and a waiting list. why would I care...
parisprints2002
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Mar 26, 2008
3:22 pm

I wasn't suggesting that practitioners experiment. If you have something that works consistently, there is no need to change what you are doing. Research...
John Hooper
hooper_jw
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Mar 26, 2008
4:06 pm

and I am not suggesting that val experiments. I AM suggesting that he get back to work on 2.0 and autonav :-), right after he gets over being bossed around:-)....
parisprints2002
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Mar 26, 2008
5:03 pm

Meg et al: I've never not been working on v2 and, esp AutoNav. And I also don't really get "bossed around", but I suspect that's pretty obvious to most...
Val Brown
valbrownusa
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Mar 26, 2008
8:19 pm

Meg et al: I've never not been working on v2 and, esp AutoNav. And I also don't really get "bossed around", but I suspect that's pretty obvious to most...
Val Brown
valbrownusa
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Mar 26, 2008
8:20 pm

I am just entertaining myself :-) Meg ... don't really get "bossed ... this point.... ;-) ... suggesting that he get back to ... around:-)....
parisprints2002
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Mar 26, 2008
8:37 pm

BTW I was sitting next to a government worker (on a long plane ride) who was part of a group who set government regulation policies re insurance. He studied...
parisprints2002
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Mar 26, 2008
4:09 pm

Martijn: Actually it was you and those in your group that refused to collaborate and persisted for two years in spreading lies about me and NeuroCARE. That...
Val Brown
valbrownusa
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Mar 26, 2008
2:38 pm

Hi Martijn: I can't help but respond to this bit: - I did look at the results from your practice but they were not compared to anything so it was very...
Karen Shue
drklshue
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Mar 26, 2008
8:34 pm

Hi Martijn et al Martijin You said "So when can we continue based on CONTENT? Why can't anyone explain how NCP really works or are we all not smart enough to...
John Thompson
thompson_jhn
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Mar 27, 2008
4:04 am

Hi John, Thank you for your cogent response. It definitely allows us to shift to a "meta-understanding" of the difficulties traditional and non-traditional EEG...
Dr. Sue Brown
zengarhealer
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Mar 27, 2008
11:00 pm

That had not occurred to me as a possibility for this forum and it would be wonderful. Nonlinear Dynamical Systems theory has so much to offer in...
John Thompson
thompson_jhn
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Mar 28, 2008
4:10 am

I think it would be wonderful to have this forum as a come-to-my-mailbox place to hear more about NDS theory and its application to the brain and ...
Karen Shue
drklshue
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Mar 28, 2008
2:07 pm

my fingers crossed too. Meg ... mailbox ... brain and ... it ... underlying ... process ... Sue Brown ... trained ... the ... times ... think ... NLD as ... ...
parisprints2002
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Mar 28, 2008
2:40 pm

That's a very exciting idea, bringing NDS information to this forum. Pertinent to our work and to so many systems we are part of, internally, externally,...
Catherine Boyer
catherine.boyer
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Mar 28, 2008
3:25 pm

Hi John, I am really glad you chose to post here. We truly welcome diversity of any sort. The only thing we would moderate here (apart from mass advertising),...
Dr. Sue Brown
zengarhealer
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Mar 28, 2008
6:42 pm
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