Hi Lise,
thank you so much. That is very interesting and helpful information.
John

--- In neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com, Alberta Einstein
<graymatter7112@...> wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
> I have worked with learning disabilities and cognitive delays for
many years...The method I use is very individualized. The four tests I
suggested earlier indicate a general level of intelligence and a level
of auditory processing. The (KBit) is compared with the PPVT-III for
Receptive Language (therefore I KNOW I am getting accurate scores).
Then the Scan-C for Auditory Processing is compared to the Woodcock
Test of Auditory Discrimination. This helps me understand that IF
there is a component of "attention difficulties" then I can see if it
is it tied to auditory discrimination, auditory association, auditory
reception or auditory sequential memory. Anyone with attention
problems will demonstrate some difficulties in these areas.
>
> John, once I have this information then I know what other tests I
need to complete- ITPA (Illnois Test of Psycholingusitic Abilities),
or if math difficulties KeyMath, in reading problems- Woodcock Reading
Mastery etc... Each test gives me more information about what is
happening in that child's brain. After I understand how that person
processes information, and I can see their behaviors, and look at
their physiological responses to stress then I can create a protocol
that will work for them.
>
> I always use Cognitive Rehabilitation at the SAME time I am doing
the NF. So, in my clinic, I have a mixing board that allows me to
have the NF as loud in one or both ears as I want it to be. Then if
they have a problem with Auditory Discrimination, and a noticable
Right ear preference, then I would play games like SoundSmart, or
Earobics at the SAME time as the NF. In the beginning, they must only
have the ZNC playing, until they understand the control they have over
the system. Then as time is moving along, I introduce them to these
games, making sure they are still aware of their music, I might
decrease the volume in the Right ear and increase the volume in the
left ear assisting them in re-training their auditory processing skills.
>
> I use the ZNC screens with all of my "home units" and I change the
time I use in each mode, according to the indivdual needs. But, I do
not have ANYONE that only uses the ZNC, they ALL follow the Cognitive
Rehab. protocol- which is doing nf AND the Cog. games concurrently.
The majority of my home units are families with Autistic children and
they range from 6 yrs. old to 20 yrs.old...I am seeing that these
children are more relaxed and are sleeping better. I know we all work
with NF to decrease stress levels, thereby, creating an environment
conducive to prime learning. This makes an incredible difference in
the way they process information- therefore, I have 2 main
requirements from a NF system-* it must be able to help the
individual learn to relax and it must be able to assist them in
staying focused. Once, that person has learned the difference with
those two states of being...then it MY responsibility to help them
learn new patterns of processing information,
> cognitively. It helps tremendously that this system is so easy for
the parents to learn to use!
>
> Long answer John...I hope it wasn't too boring- But, I am using
NF so differently than most people, that, I am not sure that I can
really compare "how" I work with Learning problems in the same way
another person would...I know many people will have their clients do
homework, or other cognitive tasks, but because I am truly more of an
educator, I find the basis for their concerns; language processing,
speed processing, visual processing, executive function etc...then
create an cognitive profile and protocol.
>
> Hope this helps~ Lise'
>
>
>
>
> John Thompson <nhtc@...> wrote:
> Hi Lise,
> I have been referred a young boy (16) who has a mild intellectual
> disability. This is most apparent in his reading and writing
> abilities which are very poor. I am wondering, given the tests you
> are using, if this might be an area you have experience with. If that
> is so, are you able to report generally on what you see with ZNC
training.
> John thompson
>
> --- In neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups.com, Alberta Einstein
> <graymatter7112@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Michael, et al;
> >
> > I agree wholeheartedly! I got caught up in the "defense" of NCP,
> Period 3, 5 Phase model, and of Val, himself...and it just is a waste
> of our precious time...I was pulled through the dirt and left
> exhausted and rather confused by how people just couldn't understand
> the obvious, and what I considered to a proven route!
> >
> > If you have ever seen the movie- What the Bleep, I am reminded of
> the example they give in it about the Aborigine people not being able
> to see a ship in the ocean because they did NOT have a frame of
> reference, and this is true with NCP- the majority of these
> individuals have absolutely no frame of reference to understand this
> process, therefore, it is not understood by them. It is sad, but,
> they will NOT "get-it" just because we are trying to force-feed them
> the information, they will have to learn enough background information
> that this process "makes sense" to them!
> >
> > I now work exclusively in three clinics, and two neurology
> offices, gathering enough "testable" information that I can support
> (with hard facts) the progress my clients make using NCP. It is not
> easy hanging with the "big fish" in a small pond- but I believe after
> 10 years of using Val's approaches, I would much rather be there with
> him in the fore-front and being productive, making a difference than
> trying to fight my way through the few narrow minded people that think
> they know all there is to know about NF.
> >
> > If anyone would be interested in using any of the same tests I am
> using as a pre & post measurement, I would love to add your data to
> the hundred and fifty people I currently have.
> > The tests are; PPVT-III, K-BIT, Scan -C/A, Woodcock Test of
> Auditory Discrimination. I also have pre & post measurements of the
> mean amplitude of cortical activity and I use an ex-cel file as a
> graph for the progress.
> >
> > I truly believe this kind of work will eventually "speak" the
> language needed to allow people to have that frame of reference, so
> they may too see the NCP ship...
> >
> > Lise' D. DeLong, Ph.D., CPCRT
> > www.cognitive-connections.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Dr. Sue Brown" <sue@> wrote:
> > What a great post! Thanks Michael- Your post feels and
> sounds --SANE!
> > And you too Meg.....
> > Breath of Fresh Air while we all focus on what is important
> > The Relief (in some way of other) of suffering.....
> > Sue Cheshire Brown Ph.D.
> > www.zengar.com
> >
> >
> > All Truth goes through three stages:
> > First it is ridiculed
> > Then it is violently opposed
> > Finally, it is accepted as self-evident....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mar 11, 2007, at 6:20 AM, michael andes wrote:
> >
> > Hello Robert,
> > I do appreciate your intent and your offer. However, I must agree
> > with Val that such an effort would most likely be wasted. I have
> > occasionally brought up the example of Brother Rabbit and the tar
> > baby--as depicted in the movie "Song of the South" from the 1940's.
> > The tar baby is a passive, sticky trap just sitting as a lump on a
> bench.
> > When the rabbit greets it and get no reaction, he hits it out of
> > anger and frustration, first with one paw, then a second one, until
> > he's got all four feet stuck in the tar baby. I think our collective
> > energy (those of us doing Neurocare) is best spent just keeping
> > on keeping on and letting the experiences of our clients tell the
story.
> > Nothing speaks as effectively as concrete, specific examples of
success
> > and genuine transformation.
> >
> > In Ann Arbor, just yesterday, we held the first meeting of a small
> Zengar
> > Neurocare support group for trainers in Michigan. Pertaining to the
> > current 'concerns' of the other guys, there has not been a single
report
> > of an adverse reaction or undesireable side effect resulting from
> ZNC training,
> > while there is, collectively, YEARS of training experience w.
> successful, positive
> > outcomes. We do know that 'they' can mistakenly train somebody 'up'
> > when the client should be 'trained down' and, as a result, problems
> can arise.
> >
> > I'd rather put my time and energy into celebration, learning, and
> providing
> > good training. It is, in my opinion, a bit of a side-track to get
> caught up
> > in defending a position or proving a case that demands no proof. I
> prefer to
> > not cast pearls or try to speak to those who have no ears.
> Eventually truth
> > has a way of prevailing: perhaps just because it lasts longer than
> bullpoopy.
> >
> > Michael Andes,
> > Ann Arbor, MI
> >
> > on 3/10/07 9:38 PM, lawson415 at qeeg@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi All
> >
> > John Thompson invited me join a while ago because he said someone on
> > this group might be interested in working with me to make a real EEG
> > data file one could use to do cross validation between NCP data
> > processing and between other software's processing. The goal would be
> > to shut people up who complain about alleged inability of ncp to
> > process EEG accurately.
> >
> > I do not own ncp nor have I even seen it work. However, I am tired of
> > the content on other lists where some obsess w/ this software and
> > waste my time w/ innumerable posts about it.
> >
> > Here is my offer/request: I have hundreds of EEG recordings. If NCP,
> > can read pre-recorded data, I am willing to convert some of my EEG
> > data at c3-c4 to ncp data format if someone will define that format
> > for me. Once converted, I would share versions of this file or files,
> > depending on how ncp works, in different formats w/ people who have
> > software that can analyze it. Since people report getting good results
> > using ncp software, I would hypothesize a significant correlation
> > between ncp results w/ the data I supply and the results of this same
> > data analyzed in other software.
> >
> > My contribution would be the formatted data. I would also be willing
> > to provide mean, sd and coefficient of variation info for data in up
> > to 10 bands when analyzed in other software.
> >
> > Any takers?
> >
> > Robert
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
> > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
> with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
>