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Hi John,
I have worked with learning disabilities and cognitive delays for many years...The method I use is very individualized. The four tests I suggested earlier indicate a general level of intelligence and a level of auditory processing. The (KBit) is compared with the PPVT-III for Receptive Language (therefore I KNOW I am getting accurate scores). Then the Scan-C for Auditory Processing is compared to the Woodcock Test of Auditory Discrimination. This helps me understand that IF there is a component of "attention difficulties" then I can see if it is it tied to auditory discrimination, auditory association, auditory reception or auditory sequential memory. Anyone with attention problems will demonstrate some difficulties in these areas.
John, once I have this information then I know what other tests I need to complete- ITPA (Illnois Test of
Psycholingusitic Abilities), or if math difficulties KeyMath, in reading problems- Woodcock Reading Mastery etc... Each test gives me more information about what is happening in that child's brain. After I understand how that person processes information, and I can see their behaviors, and look at their physiological responses to stress then I can create a protocol that will work for them.
I always use Cognitive Rehabilitation at the SAME time I am doing the NF. So, in my clinic, I have a mixing board that allows me to have the NF as loud in one or both ears as I want it to be. Then if they have a problem with Auditory Discrimination, and a noticable Right ear preference, then I would play games like SoundSmart, or Earobics at the SAME time as the NF. In the beginning, they must only have the ZNC playing, until they understand the control they have over the
system. Then as time is moving along, I introduce them to these games, making sure they are still aware of their music, I might decrease the volume in the Right ear and increase the volume in the left ear assisting them in re-training their auditory processing skills.
I use the ZNC screens with all of my "home units" and I change the time I use in each mode, according to the indivdual needs. But, I do not have ANYONE that only uses the ZNC, they ALL follow the Cognitive Rehab. protocol- which is doing nf AND the Cog. games concurrently. The majority of my home units are families with Autistic children and they range from 6 yrs. old to 20 yrs.old...I am seeing that these children are more relaxed and are sleeping better. I know we all work with NF to decrease stress levels, thereby, creating an environment conducive to prime learning. This makes an incredible
difference in the way they process information- therefore, I have 2 main requirements from a NF system-* it must be able to help the individual learn to relax and it must be able to assist them in staying focused. Once, that person has learned the difference with those two states of being...then it MY responsibility to help them learn new patterns of processing information, cognitively. It helps tremendously that this system is so easy for the parents to learn to use!
Long answer John...I hope it wasn't too boring- But, I am using NF so differently than most people, that, I am not sure that I can really compare "how" I work with Learning problems in the same way another person would...I know many people will have their clients do homework, or other cognitive tasks, but because I am truly more of an educator, I find the basis for their concerns; language processing, speed processing,
visual processing, executive function etc...then create an cognitive profile and protocol.
Hope this helps~ Lise'
John Thompson <nhtc@...> wrote:
Hi Lise,
I have been referred a young boy (16) who has a mild intellectual
disability. This is most apparent in his reading and writing
abilities which are very poor. I am wondering, given the tests you
are using, if this might be an area you have experience with. If that
is so, are you able to report generally on what you see with ZNC training.
John thompson
--- In neurofeedcommunity@yahoogroups. , Alberta Einsteincom
<graymatter7112@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Michael, et al;
>
> I agree wholeheartedly! I got caught up in the "defense" of NCP,
Period 3, 5 Phase model, and of Val, himself...and it just is a waste
of our precious time...I was pulled through the dirt and left
exhausted and rather confused by how people just couldn't understand
the obvious, and what I considered to a proven route!
>
> If you have ever seen the movie- What the Bleep, I am reminded of
the example they give in it about the Aborigine people not being able
to see a ship in the ocean because they did NOT have a frame of
reference, and this is true with NCP- the majority of these
individuals have absolutely no frame of reference to understand this
process, therefore, it is not understood by them. It is sad, but,
they will NOT "get-it" just because we are trying to force-feed them
the information, they will have to learn enough background information
that this process "makes sense" to them!
>
> I now work exclusively in three clinics, and two neurology
offices, gathering enough "testable" information that I can support
(with hard facts) the progress my clients make using NCP. It is not
easy hanging with the "big fish" in a small pond- but I believe after
10 years of using Val's approaches, I would much rather be there with
him in the fore-front and being productive, making a difference than
trying to fight my way through the few narrow minded people that think
they know all there is to know about NF.
>
> If anyone would be interested in using any of the same tests I am
using as a pre & post measurement, I would love to add your data to
the hundred and fifty people I currently have.
> The tests are; PPVT-III, K-BIT, Scan -C/A, Woodcock Test of
Auditory Discrimination. I also have pre & post measurements of the
mean amplitude of cortical activity and I use an ex-cel file as a
graph for the progress.
>
> I truly believe this kind of work will eventually "speak" the
language needed to allow people to have that frame of reference, so
they may too see the NCP ship...
>
> Lise' D. DeLong, Ph.D., CPCRT
> www.cognitive-connections. com
>
>
>
>
>
> "Dr. Sue Brown" <sue@...> wrote:
> What a great post! Thanks Michael- Your post feels and
sounds --SANE!
> And you too Meg.....
> Breath of Fresh Air while we all focus on what is important
> The Relief (in some way of other) of suffering.....
> Sue Cheshire Brown Ph.D.
> www.zengar.com
>
>
> All Truth goes through three stages:
> First it is ridiculed
> Then it is violently opposed
> Finally, it is accepted as self-evident....
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 11, 2007, at 6:20 AM, michael andes wrote:
>
> Hello Robert,
> I do appreciate your intent and your offer. However, I must agree
> with Val that such an effort would most likely be wasted. I have
> occasionally brought up the example of Brother Rabbit and the tar
> baby--as depicted in the movie "Song of the South" from the 1940's.
> The tar baby is a passive, sticky trap just sitting as a lump on a
bench.
> When the rabbit greets it and get no reaction, he hits it out of
> anger and frustration, first with one paw, then a second one, until
> he's got all four feet stuck in the tar baby. I think our collective
> energy (those of us doing Neurocare) is best spent just keeping
> on keeping on and letting the experiences of our clients tell the story.
> Nothing speaks as effectively as concrete, specific examples of success
> and genuine transformation.
>
> In Ann Arbor, just yesterday, we held the first meeting of a small
Zengar
> Neurocare support group for trainers in Michigan. Pertaining to the
> current 'concerns' of the other guys, there has not been a single report
> of an adverse reaction or undesireable side effect resulting from
ZNC training,
> while there is, collectively, YEARS of training experience w.
successful, positive
> outcomes. We do know that 'they' can mistakenly train somebody 'up'
> when the client should be 'trained down' and, as a result, problems
can arise.
>
> I'd rather put my time and energy into celebration, learning, and
providing
> good training. It is, in my opinion, a bit of a side-track to get
caught up
> in defending a position or proving a case that demands no proof. I
prefer to
> not cast pearls or try to speak to those who have no ears.
Eventually truth
> has a way of prevailing: perhaps just because it lasts longer than
bullpoopy.
>
> Michael Andes,
> Ann Arbor, MI
>
> on 3/10/07 9:38 PM, lawson415 at qeeg@... wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> John Thompson invited me join a while ago because he said someone on
> this group might be interested in working with me to make a real EEG
> data file one could use to do cross validation between NCP data
> processing and between other software's processing. The goal would be
> to shut people up who complain about alleged inability of ncp to
> process EEG accurately.
>
> I do not own ncp nor have I even seen it work. However, I am tired of
> the content on other lists where some obsess w/ this software and
> waste my time w/ innumerable posts about it.
>
> Here is my offer/request: I have hundreds of EEG recordings. If NCP,
> can read pre-recorded data, I am willing to convert some of my EEG
> data at c3-c4 to ncp data format if someone will define that format
> for me. Once converted, I would share versions of this file or files,
> depending on how ncp works, in different formats w/ people who have
> software that can analyze it. Since people report getting good results
> using ncp software, I would hypothesize a significant correlation
> between ncp results w/ the data I supply and the results of this same
> data analyzed in other software.
>
> My contribution would be the formatted data. I would also be willing
> to provide mean, sd and coefficient of variation info for data in up
> to 10 bands when analyzed in other software.
>
> Any takers?
>
> Robert
>
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