Hi Ellen,

Thank you for your kind  words. While I disagree with some of your
ideas, I don't think that matters. One of the ways I differ from many
Christians is that I don't believe in the necessity of convincing
other's of Christ's identity. I believe that G-d is a bit different
for each person, and that He judges not so much whether a person
believes in Him in a certain way (or at all!) but in whether a person
has expressed love for self and others, and has made good use of
his/her time on Earth.

In response to your questions:

> It gives you comfort to know that there are those who try to destroy
> truth?  How is this possible?  If you had said that God protects you
> from them or that Jesus' example gave you inspiration to face your
> own struggles, that would have made sense and may have been
> what you meant.  But it came out otherwise and to take comfort
> in the fact that enemies exist needs some explanation.

What I meant is that it gives me comfort to know I am not alone in my
struggles... that the battle between truth and lies is an ancient and
important one. Kind of how Prometheus feels at the end of Anthem when
he identifies with those who fought for the truth in the past.


> And were you from a Christian background before and just
> decided to join the Church or was it all new to you?  This is mere
curiosity
> based on my thinking about how people come to believe stories like
that of
> Jesus.

It was entirely new to me. I was raised as an agnostic Jew. That is,
my father is agnostic but felt it was important for his children to
know something about Judaism, while my mother hated the religion, felt
it was dangerous to stand up for Judaism because of anti-Semitism and
  terrorism, but feared that G-d would punish her if she didn't worship
Him. So the compromise struck by my parents was for the children to be
sent to the least religious school possible, where we would be taught
to give lip service to religious tradition, to memorise prayers
because we were supposed to say them, and not be taught anything that
had any meaning. My knowledge of Jesus' existence or teachings was
limited to hearing Christmas carols in school (I was the only Jewish
child, and feared G-d's wrath if I participated in holiday concerts),
and hearing my grandfather rant that the Messianic Jewish movement,
which is my religion today, was an evil force equivalent to the Nazi
party because it embraces belief in Yeshua (the Hebrew name for Jesus).

I came to my religious beliefs with some skepticism. My boyfriend
believed deeply in G-d. I did not, at the time. But since G-d was
important to him, I decided to experiment with praying, with reading
the Bible, with following the spiritual principles I found within its
pages. I found that what I was doing worked better for my life than my
atheism had. The more I sought G-d, the more I realised the G-d of my
childhood had nothing to do with the real G-d.

When I moved out here and Dave passed away, at first I turned away
from G-d because it didn't seem fair that Dave had died. Finding a
pastor I related well to really helped me get past my initial shock
and grief and begin to move forward with my life. However, that
pastor's church closed due to lack of funds, and I found that other
churches in this area were very dogmatic. They were far too based on
avoiding eternal condemnation and forcing the gospel down people's
throats for my taste. My grandmother--another one of those traditional
Jews who believes that anyone who believes in Jesus is evil--actually
suggested I look at a Messianic temple, which surprised everyone.
There's one in all of North Carolina, about an hour away from me. I'm
much more comfortable with the services there... it combines for me
the best of Jewish traditions and Christian beliefs, IMO.

Anyway, sorry this got long, but that's my journey...
> Good luck with your problems.  Problems usually have solutions.
>
> Ellen
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: stephanie_m_silberstein <stephanie_m_silberstein@...>
> > To: <nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: 7/1/2007 4:51:27 PM
> > Subject: [nathaniel_branden] Re: Leaving the church
> >
> > Mike R., you've asked what sounds like a simple question but which is
> > actually quite a bit more complicated than it seems. A full answer may
> > be beyond the scope of this list--however, I'll do the best I can to
> > answer.
> >
> > Before getting to that, however, I'd like to clarify why I'm answering
> > at all. I don't want to take the list in the direction of debating
> > religion vs. non-religion, particularly if participants are bent upon
> > convincing those who disagree that their beliefs are wrong. I do,
> > however, want to express the truth as I see it, and hope that others
> > are   interested.
> >
> > Now, I have many reasons for my belief in G-d. They mainly boil down
> > to the simple fact that my life before faith was a nightmare I would
> > never want to return to. I was a frightened, angry confused mess of a
> > person, a girl in a woman's body who held herself to impossibly high
> > standards and hated herself for failing to achieve them. I lived by
> > the emotion of the moment while wishing I could be more rational. I
> > had very little respect for myself or for the world in general for not
> > being as it should be, and I made poor choices most of the time based
> > upon a desire to force the world to act as it ought to.
> >
> > My embracing of G-d, and specifically of Christ, changed all that.
> >
> > You see, my basic values haven't changed. I still believe passionately
> > in the importance of ideals such as integrity, truth, and fairness. I
> > still believe that my life is a precious gift not to be squandered,
> > and in making every moment count.
> >
> > However, with G-d in my life, I'm able to express those values rather
> > than get mired down in hatred for the world when it doesn't work the
> > way it ought to. Instead of trying to be this perfectly moral person
> > in an immoral world on my own, I work in partnership with G-d. I allow
> > Him to help me to continue doing that which I know is right to do even
> > when the world is trying to wear me down.
> >
> > On a more theoretical level, I believe that Christ's life prior to His
> > resurrection is a testimony to the strength of truth and the way that
> > fear and lies try to, but ultimately fail, to destroy it. While I know
> > that I am not suffering for my truth in the ways that Christ suffered
> > for His, it gives me comfort and strength to realize that whenever one
> > tries to live by the truth, there are those who will try to destroy
> > them in the name of protecting whatever passes for reality in their
> > minds. I also find Christ's call to be the "light of the world"
> > inspiring, and I am living that call every day.
> >
> > As if all that weren't enough, I have experienced a personal
> > relationship with G-d which has allowed me to trust Him and to allow
> > Him to lead me forward through my life. This is something that is
> > difficult to explain to people who have never experienced it. I don't
> > mean that in any snarky way. It's just been my experience that there's
> > a disconnect occurring between people who have directly experienced
> > G-d and those who have not, and the latter tend to write me off as
crazy.
> >
> > Anyway, I've prayed and I've felt G-d's presence. When I've been
> > depressed, spending time in prayer and meditation has lifted my
> > depression and filled me instead with joy. I've also had felt sense
> > messages from G-d--things like, "You're going to get a job by the end
> > of the week"--and each time these predictions have come true. Not 90%
> > of the time, not 95% of the time, not 99% of the time--100% of the
time.
> >
> > Now, none of this means that my life is somehow perfect because I have
> > aligned myself with G-d. I've had some difficult times in my life. I
> > lived in poverty for two years. My boyfriend, who I loved so very
> > much, died suddenly last August. And I've had the same heartbreaks as
> > everyone else.
> >
> > Why, then, do I believe in G-d? Because as bad as things have
> > sometimes gotten, I truly believe they would be worse if they weren't
> > for Him. I don't think my brain could cope with the idea of some of
> > the things I've experienced being random chance. I think that if it
> > weren't for my faith that G-d has a larger plan and will make good
> > come out of everything I've suffered through, I'd be a confused and
> > frightened mess, always waiting for the next thing to go wrong, always
> > worrying so much about what might happen that I wouldn't be able to
> > function.
> >
> > Of all the reasons I believe in G-d, I think the replacement of fear
> > with peace is the most important. My faith in G-d has translated for
> > me into faith that I will have a good life. I'm no longer afraid to
> > dream big and to stand by my dreams, no matter who tries to discourage
> > me. I know that if I take good care of the things G-d has blessed me
> > with, like my home and my car and my job, He will bless me with even
> > more. I can wake up in the morning and be grateful for this beautiful
> > world He has created and for my part in it instead of angry at the
> > world for being broken and frightened of my own shortcomings.
> >
> > In conclusion, I believe in G-d because my faith is helping me to live
> > my best vision of all life has to offer.
> >
> > One last thing: I'm talking about my life here on Earth. One mistake
> > that I think many Christians make is focusing only on the glory of the
> > world to come, and missing the central question of how to live this
> > life. I'm iffy when it comes to afterlife stuff--my faith in this area
> > is far from perfect. While I do believe that my soul and my
> > boyfriend's will someday be intertwined for eternity, I'm a bit
> > agnostic about what happens after death. I just don't worry about it.
> > I'm here on Earth and I'm going to be the light of the world on Earth,
> > not waste my time here waiting for the world to come.
> >
> > best,
> > Stephanie
> >
> >
> > --- In nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com, Mike Rael <mikesrael3@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Stephanie,
> > >    Why do you believe in God?
> >
>

Hi Davey,

I think your response illustrates a problem with diagnostic labels.
The DSM-IV is useful in terms of describing a range of behaviors, but
there is too much of a tendency to categorise people based upon their
behaviors. Over-categorisation leads to over-diagnosation (if that's
even a word) and to people being expected to conform to a diagnosis
rather than being viewed as individuals.

Personally, I don't care about whether Ayn Rand was borderline,
paranoid schizophrenic, manic-depressive, or anything else. I'd rather
view her as a whole person, take what I can out of her work, and feel
sad about some poor choices she made that interfered with her
happiness and the happiness of people around her.

That being said, I don't think asking a question about Rand's
psychiatric makeup deserves the kind of anger, sarcasm, and belittling
  that Mike R. expressed. I think he thought that by rewriting your
question to attack you instead of what he perceived to be an attack on
Rand, you would draw the parallel he drew and apologise for your
"offensive" question. I believe that questions are important,
even--and especially--the ones that make people uncomfortable, and I
hope you will not withdraw from this list as a result of his behavior.
  I also hope that this incident will not grow into an all-out flame
war... speculations about either of your characters is unnecessary and
adds nothing.

best,
Stephanie
--- In nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com, "daveywavey1000"
<daveywavey1000@...> wrote:
>
>
> Two other comments:
>
> a) Of course you can have a borderline borderlne. To be a BPD under
> DSMIV required at least 5 out of 9 characteristics. Someone that has
> 4 isn't BPD, but could be said to have strong borderline traits - as
> opposed to someone that has only 1 or 2.
>
> Everyone has borderline traits. This is a matter of degree. When
> these traits dominate the personality in an inflexible and all
> pervasive manner then that person is likely to be BPD.
>
> b) You mention that AR was a DSMIV kaleidoscope. You clearly know
> quite a bit about about psychology - do you think AR had any of the
> Cluster B Personality Disorders? The reason I choose them is that she
> seemed quite an unempathetic person, and Cluster B Personality
> Disorders tend to be "bad people".
>
>
> --- In nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Lee"
> <mikelee.home@> wrote:
> >
> > Daveywavey who has a really gayvey nom de guerre asks oh-so-
> innocently if AR
> > was borderline:
> >
> > > Did Ayn Rand have a Borderiner Personality Disorder - on the
> > > alternative, strong borderline traits?
> >
> > I consider myself an expert, or at least a veteran, on this
> subject, having
> > banged a borderline for several years.
> >
> > No, St. Ayn was not borderline. That you might think so indicates
> that you
> > are happily free of personal experience with the borderline Species.
> >
> > And there's no such thing as being borderline borderline. Any more
> than
> > there is being borderline leopard.
> >
> > This is not to say that being in St. Ayn's presence wasn't a DSM4
> > kaleidoscopic experience. The colors!
> >
> > I think it's kind of funny how other people here have been offended
> by your
> > question. I think they're missing the fact that peeing on the
> carpet is
> > almost always mixed with a charming naivete.
> >
> > Welcome, grasshopper.
> >
> > Mike Lee
> > 4 what? 4 years old? How cute!
> >
>

Two other comments:

a) Of course you can have a borderline borderlne. To be a BPD under
DSMIV required at least 5 out of 9 characteristics. Someone that has
4 isn't BPD, but could be said to have strong borderline traits - as
opposed to someone that has only 1 or 2.

Everyone has borderline traits. This is a matter of degree. When
these traits dominate the personality in an inflexible and all
pervasive manner then that person is likely to be BPD.

b) You mention that AR was a DSMIV kaleidoscope. You clearly know
quite a bit about about psychology - do you think AR had any of the
Cluster B Personality Disorders? The reason I choose them is that she
seemed quite an unempathetic person, and Cluster B Personality
Disorders tend to be "bad people".


--- In nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Lee"
<mikelee.home@...> wrote:
>
> Daveywavey who has a really gayvey nom de guerre asks oh-so-
innocently if AR
> was borderline:
>
> > Did Ayn Rand have a Borderiner Personality Disorder - on the
> > alternative, strong borderline traits?
>
> I consider myself an expert, or at least a veteran, on this
subject, having
> banged a borderline for several years.
>
> No, St. Ayn was not borderline. That you might think so indicates
that you
> are happily free of personal experience with the borderline Species.
>
> And there's no such thing as being borderline borderline. Any more
than
> there is being borderline leopard.
>
> This is not to say that being in St. Ayn's presence wasn't a DSM4
> kaleidoscopic experience. The colors!
>
> I think it's kind of funny how other people here have been offended
by your
> question. I think they're missing the fact that peeing on the
carpet is
> almost always mixed with a charming naivete.
>
> Welcome, grasshopper.
>
> Mike Lee
> 4 what? 4 years old? How cute!
>

Thank you for your answer Mike Lee. I was actually genuinely asking
and found your answer informative, especially as you've had a first
hand experience with a Borderline.

I guess it would have been interesting to get NB's point of view,
though that is a pipedream.

No idea why Mike Rael was so abusive in his response to a sincere
question - though I did some searching on his previous posts, and he
seems to have had a tough childhood, and is getting old, and is still
single, so that probably explains his bitterness.




--- In nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Lee"
<mikelee.home@...> wrote:
>
> Daveywavey who has a really gayvey nom de guerre asks oh-so-
innocently if AR
> was borderline:
>
> > Did Ayn Rand have a Borderiner Personality Disorder - on the
> > alternative, strong borderline traits?
>
> I consider myself an expert, or at least a veteran, on this
subject, having
> banged a borderline for several years.
>
> No, St. Ayn was not borderline. That you might think so indicates
that you
> are happily free of personal experience with the borderline Species.
>
> And there's no such thing as being borderline borderline. Any more
than
> there is being borderline leopard.
>
> This is not to say that being in St. Ayn's presence wasn't a DSM4
> kaleidoscopic experience. The colors!
>
> I think it's kind of funny how other people here have been offended
by your
> question. I think they're missing the fact that peeing on the
carpet is
> almost always mixed with a charming naivete.
>
> Welcome, grasshopper.
>
> Mike Lee
> 4 what? 4 years old? How cute!
>

Daveywavey who has a really gayvey nom de guerre asks oh-so-innocently if AR
was borderline:

> Did Ayn Rand have a Borderiner Personality Disorder - on the
> alternative, strong borderline traits?

I consider myself an expert, or at least a veteran, on this subject, having
banged a borderline for several years.

No, St. Ayn was not borderline. That you might think so indicates that you
are happily free of personal experience with the borderline Species.

And there's no such thing as being borderline borderline. Any more than
there is being borderline leopard.

This is not to say that being in St. Ayn's presence wasn't a DSM4
kaleidoscopic experience. The colors!

I think it's kind of funny how other people here have been offended by your
question. I think they're missing the fact that peeing on the carpet is
almost always mixed with a charming naivete.

Welcome, grasshopper.

Mike Lee
4 what? 4 years old? How cute!

--- In nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com, "daveywavey1000"
<daveywavey1000@...> wrote:
>
> I don't claim to know enough about to her come to a diagnosis, I am
> just raising this as a possibility - what do others think?
>

I am not saying I know enough about you to come to a diagnosis, but
something tells me that you don't know enough about this condition to
be diagnosis people with it.  Come to a diagnosis? :)  She is not a
patient in a psych ward that we're trying to figure out here.  Where
did the assumption that she's mentally ill come from?

The examples you listed are not exactly behaviors I would call classic
of Borderline personality....not at all actually.  I agree with the
previous poster who said that that if this were borderline, there
would certainly be a lot more people out there with the same diagnosis.

Allie

Hi:)
    I think you're just another sicko who is trolling this list. Of course I
don't know enough to give an informed opinion about this. I'm just raising this
as a possibility. What do others think?
best,
Mike Rael

daveywavey1000 <daveywavey1000@...> wrote:
  Did Ayn Rand have a Borderiner Personality Disorder - on the
  alternative, strong borderline traits?

  Why might she have had this:

  *Some of her actions show a lack of empathy (eg having an affair even
  though she had her husband's "consent")

  *Acting very sexually assertively, eg, suggesting to Nathaniel that
  they have an affair - borderlines are reknowned for their sexual
  assertiveness.

  *Being extermely manipulative. Making her love and approval
  conditional on people idolising her - very typical of borderlines.

  *Borderlines are often attracted to Narcissistic men. And lets face
  it, we all love Nathaniel, but he has Narcissistic traits.

  *After Nathaniel ceased his affair with her, she cut him off and
  badmouthed him. Very Borderline behaviour.

  I don't claim to know enough about to her come to a diagnosis, I am
  just raising this as a possibility - what do others think?






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If Ayn Rand is considered borderline based on the characteristics
below, then I think a large percentage of the population is
borderline.  If traits become as prevalent as to appear in a large
percentage of the population, can it really be considered
personality disorder, or just a norm?

In my opinion, I've always felt that Ayn Rand lived in a somewhat
self-alienated world.  In order to maintain her rational view and
mental clarity of mind, I believe there is a strong possibility she
suppressed emotions/thoughts that conflicted with her view of
herself, or that threatened her clarity of thought.

Christopher

--- In nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com, "daveywavey1000"
<daveywavey1000@...> wrote:
>
> alternative, strong borderline traits?
>
> Why might she have had this:
>
> *Some of her actions show a lack of empathy (eg having an affair
>
> Did Ayn Rand have a Borderiner Personality Disorder - on the even
> though she had her husband's "consent")
>
> *Acting very sexually assertively, eg, suggesting to Nathaniel
that
> they have an affair - borderlines are reknowned for their sexual
> assertiveness.
>
> *Being extermely manipulative. Making her love and approval
> conditional on people idolising her - very typical of borderlines.
>
> *Borderlines are often attracted to Narcissistic men. And lets
face
> it, we all love Nathaniel, but he has Narcissistic traits.
>
> *After Nathaniel ceased his affair with her, she cut him off and
> badmouthed him. Very Borderline behaviour.
>
> I don't claim to know enough about to her come to a diagnosis, I
am
> just raising this as a possibility - what do others think?
>

Did Ayn Rand have a Borderiner Personality Disorder - on the
alternative, strong borderline traits?

Why might she have had this:

*Some of her actions show a lack of empathy (eg having an affair even
though she had her husband's "consent")

*Acting very sexually assertively, eg, suggesting to Nathaniel that
they have an affair - borderlines are reknowned for their sexual
assertiveness.

*Being extermely manipulative. Making her love and approval
conditional on people idolising her - very typical of borderlines.

*Borderlines are often attracted to Narcissistic men. And lets face
it, we all love Nathaniel, but he has Narcissistic traits.

*After Nathaniel ceased his affair with her, she cut him off and
badmouthed him. Very Borderline behaviour.

I don't claim to know enough about to her come to a diagnosis, I am
just raising this as a possibility - what do others think?

Chris test drives stuff before believing in it:

> pleasure by having and acting on them.  I remember dating a young lady
> 2 years ago, and when she decided to end our dating, I had a library
> of reasons why she wasn't good for me, and how irrational she was.  I
> found that when I pulled up this record when thinking about her, I
> became frustrated and indignant (rather unpleasant experiences).
> However, if instead I simply allowed myself to experience love and
> compassion for her (something I felt totally wrong in doing with this
> library of offenses she did), I felt hurt but warmer at a deeper
> level.  For this instance, I was able to maintain a friendship that
> later blossomed into a new and different type of intimacy by holding
> onto the compassionate feelings.

This sounds very much like tonglen, a Buddhist meditation practice. Google
Pema Chodron tonglen and you'll find more about it.

I always like it when I come up with something, and later find out I
independently formulated a thing that has long been part of the canon that I
didn't know about. Reminds me that I may be an ignoramus, but I'm not a
complete 'tard. In some ways, finding out that great minds like you thought
this up too is better than figuring out something really new.

In Tonglen meditation, you focus first on someone in pain and you breathe in
their pain. You breathe out help or healing to them. Then, you focus not
just on people in pain but on people who piss you off, and do the same
in/out exercise. There's more to it than that, but that's the basics.

As Chris has eloquently noted, the effects of this practice are surprising
and surprisingly deep and lasting.

Mike Lee
I'm not ready to tonglen John Edwards

One of the outcomes I did not foresee when beginning my quest for self-
esteem several years ago was the development of a deeply-Spiritual
practice.  By Spiritual here, I mean the experience of higher states
of consciousness (peak experiences), and insights into modeling life
and existence in a more compassionate and benevolent perspective.

One of the key lessons I ingrained after picking up my first books by
Dr. Branden was the relationship of action to experience: the fact
that values are those which one acts to gain and/or maintain, and that
emotional experiences are the products of values.  Quite clearly,
emotions are thus products of action.  I now define far more
experiences than just those termed "emotional" to be products of
action.

What happens when one relates action to experience?  For me, I began
to experience peak experiences, and then to link the actions that took
me there to the actual arrival at that state.  Similarly, when I
adopted certain compassionate ideas and behaviors to allow more
successful interpersonal relations, this led to deeply positive
experiences and the ability to develop deeply positive relationships.
It also led to a far more respected and honored self-definition.

Not all of the actions I took, nor ideas I adopted (which is mental
action), necessarily seemed rational at first.  However, I experienced
pleasure by having and acting on them.  I remember dating a young lady
2 years ago, and when she decided to end our dating, I had a library
of reasons why she wasn't good for me, and how irrational she was.  I
found that when I pulled up this record when thinking about her, I
became frustrated and indignant (rather unpleasant experiences).
However, if instead I simply allowed myself to experience love and
compassion for her (something I felt totally wrong in doing with this
library of offenses she did), I felt hurt but warmer at a deeper
level.  For this instance, I was able to maintain a friendship that
later blossomed into a new and different type of intimacy by holding
onto the compassionate feelings.

My definition of the "rational act" above at that time was the truly
painful choice; whereas the act of compassion for this woman was the
Spiritual choice.  And so, I achieve a Spiritual life by understanding
simply the relationship of action (the injunction) to resulting
experience, and seeking the experiences that lead to the definition of
Spirituality I presented above.

Warmly,
Christopher

Chris wonders whether pain is the spice that makes the nice even nicer:

> My question is not whether pain is desirable; rather, I am
> questioning the value of a positive experience when one is in pain
> versus a positive experience when one is not in pain.

When younger, I rejected all theodicies out of hand. As time has gone on,
and I have learned that people lose consciousness when the pain really is
too much, I'm not so sure.

On the other hand...

I have a good friend who is about to lose his house, his mind, his family
because he's pretty much failed at everything he's tried. He's tried to be
an actor, and he's been in several movies you've seen, but you've never seen
him in them. He plays drums pretty good, and despite being short, everyone
wants him on their team in pickup basketball. He has worked in banking for a
couple of decades, and he's now nearly 50, still moviestar handsome and fit
and being laid off. He just hasn't quite clicked on anything, but he's
pretty good at lots of things. He's never managed to make any of it pay off.

He's Mormon (he's not anyone I've posted about recently) and I think he's a
huge suicide risk. He's praying and fasting to get out of this problem, not
normal praying and fasting but flagellant-level. As a secular person, I have
no effing idea what to say to that. He's sick of me telling him about 5x a
year the last 5 years that getting the hell out of small-town Utah would
solve his problems and that staying there because his goddamn wife likes it
will eventually lead to this or something much like it.

My aunt died of pancreatic cancer a couple years ago. She kept it mum till
nearly the end. I thought I was close to her, and she didn't tell me (one of
her daughters ratted her out) and I had to emergency fly in to see her for
the last time when she was tiny as a bird, and this was not a tiny woman
before that. She went from enjoying her retirement after a Utah Teacher of
the Year award or few to being dead in a New York Minute with no risk
factors and thousands of people in shock.

I could go on and on and on, as could most people.

If pain weren't serious, we wouldn't take it seriously.

Mike Lee
I'd confess in a New York Minute if I were tortured

My point may have been mistaken here.  It is also possible that I
may be overlooking the obvious answer.

My question is not whether pain is desirable; rather, I am
questioning the value of a positive experience when one is in pain
versus a positive experience when one is not in pain.

When in pain, individuals can form very deep connections to others
out of gratitude for their support - this is a very real and very
powerful emotion.  When not in pain, one might receive the same
support, yet experience only a fraction of the emotional
experience.  In fact, to experience the same intensity of emotion,
the person not in pain would have to receive a tremendously
different level and type of support, one that is far more difficult
to receive.

My response: when in pain, I imagine one's priority of needs shifts
substantially, resulting in a very different set of assessments
(emotional experiences) to common activities.  If we're after
emotional intensity, existence in pain might be the way to go? (it
sounds misguided, but I'm just saying..)

Chris

--- In nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <sparkawk@...>
wrote:
>
> I've been curious whether emotional pain can be misused to gain
> emotional sensitivity.
>
> As an analogy: when the skin is cut or bruised, it becomes far
more
> sensitive than normal skin.  -  can the same thing occur with
emotions?
>
> Some people prefer drama in their lives, or they find a heightened
> sense of emotional awareness during pain and struggle.  During
such
> times, every emotion becomes stronger.  I feel it in myself,
during
> times of intense and complicated emotional issues - breakups,
death,
> deep sickness of loved ones.
>
> If it is possible that an individual will hold themselves in a
> constant state of pain/struggle in order to maintain the
concurring
> emotional sensitivity, I wonder: can arising emotions such as
love,
> experienced during these pain states, be considered of the same
value
> as the love that arises when outside of these states?
>
> My thoughts are to approach this from a value-based system, which
asks
> the question:  are the values during pain/struggle states
unnatural to
> daily/normal life, or are they more natural, more honest and
> fundamental to one's spirit?
>
>
> Christopher
>

Chris asked:

> As an analogy: when the skin is cut or bruised, it becomes far more
> sensitive than normal skin.  -  can the same thing occur with
> emotions?

Baumeister (yes, the same guy who wrote about the "dark side" of
self-esteem) has some research to suggest that negative emotions are
stronger than positive ones. You might be able to find it through
Google Scholar. I think (and I'm vague on this) one of the findings is
that negative emotions imprint more strongly in memory. But don't
trust me on the finding; do research it if you're interested.

On the clinical side of things, we do know that shaming and rejection
experiences can last a lifetime. For instance, a person who is 50 can
have a very clear memory of being shamed by a parent 40 years previous.

One of my favourite quotes is by C.S. Lewis in "The Problem of Pain"
and I believe also quoted in the movie, Shadowlands, with Anthony
Hopkins: "Pain is God's megaphone to rouse a dulled world." I have
found this observation very relevant in my own life in times when
change was needed.

But as Mike Lee pointed out, although pain can be a wake-up call, not
everyone wakes up. Or if they do, they eventually go back to sleep again.

Walter
Not always letting sleeping dogs lie

do some more research please

Mike Rael <mikesrael3@...> wrote:           Stephanie,
Why do you believe in God?
Mike Rael

Stephanie Silberstein <stephanie_m_silberstein@...> wrote: I don't quite
know what to say.

As a believer in Christ, I feel insulted by your post. Perhaps you weren't
talking to me, given your first paragraph; however, I find the idea that I am
"handicapped" by my religious beliefs insulting. Faith hasn't weakened me; it's
strengthened me. It hasn't destroyed my intellect; it's allowed me to embrace my
abilities. It hasn't caused me to hate myself or others; it's energized me to
make my desire to make the world a better place into a reality.

As for the rest of your post, I don't see why secular seminars and religious
ones are mutually exclusive. There's very little philosophy in the religious
services I go to that Ayn Rand would disagree with if she could look past the
fact that the speakers believe in G-d.

I don't think the existence of religion is a tragedy. I think the insistence of
some people, whether theist or atheist, that they have a monopoly on the truth
is. I think religious and secular philosophy has a lot more in common than
people think, and we're all so busy arguing over who's right or wrong that we
lose sight of our actual ideas.

As for the OP--Mike L., my experience is that when people are making major life
decisions they just need to see their thoughts and feelings clearly so they can
decide what to do. I don't think it matters whether you agree with their
religious beliefs or not. I think they need someone to listen, to be empathetic,
and to ask open-ended questions that point them in the right direction--but not
to try to push for one solution or another, because ultimately whatever they
decide, they have to live with it. I hope that makes sense. I know what I mean
but I'm not expressing myself very well at the moment.

mike9says <mike9says@...> wrote: Appreciate your thoughtful comments. I
agree that many who are active in religions or
who don't participate but have strong religious beliefs still manage to live and
improve life
and do practice so many good ways of living.

I nonetheless find religions a terrible burden and handicap for most and a huge
tragedy
for people I care about and for mankind.

How much better off we all could be without the evils of religion is
unimaginable!

Yet I have always wondered why those outside religion don't make more attempts
to
replace religion with more reasonable and positive activities including using
some of the
positive features of religious fellowships and group activities.

Instead of Sunday school why not Sunday group fellowships to discuss better
philosophies
and at least teach the laws of logic and ways to use and experiences to try to
use. Instead
of religious picnics for example, why not more picnics and friendly get
togethers by
various groups? Instead of religious groups to work together and support friends
and
neighbors and strangers, why not just people meeting together to voluntarily do
the same?

Instead of religious preaching services, why not speakers to promote better
moral ideas?
Why not songs to sing and inspire reasonable and friendly behavior and celebrate
the joys
of life?

Some Thoughts,

Mike Gillespie

--- In nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Lee" <mikelee.home@...>
wrote:
>
> I was raised Mormon. I still have lots of Mormon friends.
>
>
>
> In the last week, statistical blip, two of my Mormon friends have approached
> me with the news that they are starting to suspect that Jesus sucks.
>
>
>
> Years ago, I would have pounced. I have more than a few dozen scalps on my
> apostasy-post, and all of the people I have scalped are still close or I'm
> glad to hear from them. I have no experience of making anyone's life worse
> by tempting them to jettison their faith.
>
>
>
> But it's been a long time since I've counted coup-at least 15 years since
> I've destroyed anyone's religious beliefs, with or without their consent.
>
>
>
> I suspect that this is a much more delicate operation when someone's
> 40-something instead of 20-something.
>
>
>
> My in-laws are 60-something and they believe in Christian stuff that is such
> asinine crap. I would love to say that they are great people in spite of
> their beliefs, but the reasonable position is to say it is because of their
> beliefs. That's how they explain it and that's the way it looks.
>
>
>
> Their beliefs organize their life, and it's pretty damn organized and
> admirable. They are tolerant and charitable. They pray a lot and don't spend
> much time judging. They are active in the Tennessee Republican Party, and
> they're against stem cell research but are genuinely hospitable and warm and
> nice and un-patronizing to our gay friends (and they know all about the
> gayness).
>
>
>
> Occasionally (every couple of years), they gently try to evangelize me, and
> I take those moments as seriously as someone defusing the bomb at the end of
> a thriller. My main goal is to do nothing to harm their faith. I don't want
> to plant a seed of doubt, to disturb a beautiful ecology that I just don't
> understand.
>
>
>
> I'm not saying they're convincing me of this horseshit. I'm saying I'm
> getting interested in the alchemy of horseshit.
>
>
>
> On the other hand, I don't want to deny aid and comfort to people looking to
> Escape the Elders by being too agnostic and empathetic. Marriages and
> children and careers are at stake here. I'm having a hard time knowing what
> to say, not because what I say is so important but because other people
> think it is and nothing I can say will convince them otherwise.
>
>
>
> Mike Lee
>
> Poor Little Rich Girl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





There&#39;s enough room in this world for everybody to be successful.
In memory of David Newton (1962-2006)

Stephanie Silberstein: Writer, Author, Thinker - the official homepage

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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Mike Rael <mikesrael3@...> wrote:          Stephanie,
Why do you believe in God?
Mike Rael

Stephanie Silberstein <stephanie_m_silberstein@...> wrote: I don't quite
know what to say.

As a believer in Christ, I feel insulted by your post. Perhaps you weren't
talking to me, given your first paragraph; however, I find the idea that I am
"handicapped" by my religious beliefs insulting. Faith hasn't weakened me; it's
strengthened me. It hasn't destroyed my intellect; it's allowed me to embrace my
abilities. It hasn't caused me to hate myself or others; it's energized me to
make my desire to make the world a better place into a reality.

As for the rest of your post, I don't see why secular seminars and religious
ones are mutually exclusive. There's very little philosophy in the religious
services I go to that Ayn Rand would disagree with if she could look past the
fact that the speakers believe in G-d.

I don't think the existence of religion is a tragedy. I think the insistence of
some people, whether theist or atheist, that they have a monopoly on the truth
is. I think religious and secular philosophy has a lot more in common than
people think, and we're all so busy arguing over who's right or wrong that we
lose sight of our actual ideas.

As for the OP--Mike L., my experience is that when people are making major life
decisions they just need to see their thoughts and feelings clearly so they can
decide what to do. I don't think it matters whether you agree with their
religious beliefs or not. I think they need someone to listen, to be empathetic,
and to ask open-ended questions that point them in the right direction--but not
to try to push for one solution or another, because ultimately whatever they
decide, they have to live with it. I hope that makes sense. I know what I mean
but I'm not expressing myself very well at the moment.

mike9says <mike9says@...> wrote: Appreciate your thoughtful comments. I
agree that many who are active in religions or
who don't participate but have strong religious beliefs still manage to live and
improve life
and do practice so many good ways of living.

I nonetheless find religions a terrible burden and handicap for most and a huge
tragedy
for people I care about and for mankind.

How much better off we all could be without the evils of religion is
unimaginable!

Yet I have always wondered why those outside religion don't make more attempts
to
replace religion with more reasonable and positive activities including using
some of the
positive features of religious fellowships and group activities.

Instead of Sunday school why not Sunday group fellowships to discuss better
philosophies
and at least teach the laws of logic and ways to use and experiences to try to
use. Instead
of religious picnics for example, why not more picnics and friendly get
togethers by
various groups? Instead of religious groups to work together and support friends
and
neighbors and strangers, why not just people meeting together to voluntarily do
the same?

Instead of religious preaching services, why not speakers to promote better
moral ideas?
Why not songs to sing and inspire reasonable and friendly behavior and celebrate
the joys
of life?

Some Thoughts,

Mike Gillespie

--- In nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Lee" <mikelee.home@...>
wrote:
>
> I was raised Mormon. I still have lots of Mormon friends.
>
>
>
> In the last week, statistical blip, two of my Mormon friends have approached
> me with the news that they are starting to suspect that Jesus sucks.
>
>
>
> Years ago, I would have pounced. I have more than a few dozen scalps on my
> apostasy-post, and all of the people I have scalped are still close or I'm
> glad to hear from them. I have no experience of making anyone's life worse
> by tempting them to jettison their faith.
>
>
>
> But it's been a long time since I've counted coup-at least 15 years since
> I've destroyed anyone's religious beliefs, with or without their consent.
>
>
>
> I suspect that this is a much more delicate operation when someone's
> 40-something instead of 20-something.
>
>
>
> My in-laws are 60-something and they believe in Christian stuff that is such
> asinine crap. I would love to say that they are great people in spite of
> their beliefs, but the reasonable position is to say it is because of their
> beliefs. That's how they explain it and that's the way it looks.
>
>
>
> Their beliefs organize their life, and it's pretty damn organized and
> admirable. They are tolerant and charitable. They pray a lot and don't spend
> much time judging. They are active in the Tennessee Republican Party, and
> they're against stem cell research but are genuinely hospitable and warm and
> nice and un-patronizing to our gay friends (and they know all about the
> gayness).
>
>
>
> Occasionally (every couple of years), they gently try to evangelize me, and
> I take those moments as seriously as someone defusing the bomb at the end of
> a thriller. My main goal is to do nothing to harm their faith. I don't want
> to plant a seed of doubt, to disturb a beautiful ecology that I just don't
> understand.
>
>
>
> I'm not saying they're convincing me of this horseshit. I'm saying I'm
> getting interested in the alchemy of horseshit.
>
>
>
> On the other hand, I don't want to deny aid and comfort to people looking to
> Escape the Elders by being too agnostic and empathetic. Marriages and
> children and careers are at stake here. I'm having a hard time knowing what
> to say, not because what I say is so important but because other people
> think it is and nothing I can say will convince them otherwise.
>
>
>
> Mike Lee
>
> Poor Little Rich Girl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





There&#39;s enough room in this world for everybody to be successful.
In memory of David Newton (1962-2006)

Stephanie Silberstein: Writer, Author, Thinker - the official homepage

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo!
FareChase.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stephanie,

I am sorry about your boyfriend.  When we lose those we love, we have
a terrible wound that needs to heal and an emptiness where something
good was.  Consider that if you were close, part of him lives on in you.
The impact he had on the universe includes you and that goes on.

To quote Robert Heinlien  "Thou art God."  While I do not agree with
your ideas, they seem to be helping you organize your life.   I suspect you
have identified as God some part of yourself or a projection of your ideals
that
speaks to you.  "God" resides inside not out there.  The sense of peace
may come from the state of meditation which you generate.

The following paragraph is why I am replying, it puzzles me.
Do you really mean this?

> On a more theoretical level, I believe that Christ's life prior to His
> resurrection is a testimony to the strength of truth and the way that
> fear and lies try to, but ultimately fail, to destroy it. While I know
> that I am not suffering for my truth in the ways that Christ suffered
> for His, it gives me comfort and strength to realize that whenever one
> tries to live by the truth, there are those who will try to destroy
> them in the name of protecting whatever passes for reality in their
> minds. I also find Christ's call to be the "light of the world"
> inspiring, and I am living that call every day.

It gives you comfort to know that there are those who try to destroy
truth?  How is this possible?  If you had said that God protects you
from them or that Jesus' example gave you inspiration to face your
own struggles, that would have made sense and may have been
what you meant.  But it came out otherwise and to take comfort
in the fact that enemies exist needs some explanation.

And were you from a Christian background before and just
decided to join the Church or was it all new to you?  This is mere curiosity
based on my thinking about how people come to believe stories like that of
Jesus.

Good luck with your problems.  Problems usually have solutions.

Ellen

> [Original Message]
> From: stephanie_m_silberstein <stephanie_m_silberstein@...>
> To: <nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: 7/1/2007 4:51:27 PM
> Subject: [nathaniel_branden] Re: Leaving the church
>
> Mike R., you've asked what sounds like a simple question but which is
> actually quite a bit more complicated than it seems. A full answer may
> be beyond the scope of this list--however, I'll do the best I can to
> answer.
>
> Before getting to that, however, I'd like to clarify why I'm answering
> at all. I don't want to take the list in the direction of debating
> religion vs. non-religion, particularly if participants are bent upon
> convincing those who disagree that their beliefs are wrong. I do,
> however, want to express the truth as I see it, and hope that others
> are   interested.
>
> Now, I have many reasons for my belief in G-d. They mainly boil down
> to the simple fact that my life before faith was a nightmare I would
> never want to return to. I was a frightened, angry confused mess of a
> person, a girl in a woman's body who held herself to impossibly high
> standards and hated herself for failing to achieve them. I lived by
> the emotion of the moment while wishing I could be more rational. I
> had very little respect for myself or for the world in general for not
> being as it should be, and I made poor choices most of the time based
> upon a desire to force the world to act as it ought to.
>
> My embracing of G-d, and specifically of Christ, changed all that.
>
> You see, my basic values haven't changed. I still believe passionately
> in the importance of ideals such as integrity, truth, and fairness. I
> still believe that my life is a precious gift not to be squandered,
> and in making every moment count.
>
> However, with G-d in my life, I'm able to express those values rather
> than get mired down in hatred for the world when it doesn't work the
> way it ought to. Instead of trying to be this perfectly moral person
> in an immoral world on my own, I work in partnership with G-d. I allow
> Him to help me to continue doing that which I know is right to do even
> when the world is trying to wear me down.
>
> On a more theoretical level, I believe that Christ's life prior to His
> resurrection is a testimony to the strength of truth and the way that
> fear and lies try to, but ultimately fail, to destroy it. While I know
> that I am not suffering for my truth in the ways that Christ suffered
> for His, it gives me comfort and strength to realize that whenever one
> tries to live by the truth, there are those who will try to destroy
> them in the name of protecting whatever passes for reality in their
> minds. I also find Christ's call to be the "light of the world"
> inspiring, and I am living that call every day.
>
> As if all that weren't enough, I have experienced a personal
> relationship with G-d which has allowed me to trust Him and to allow
> Him to lead me forward through my life. This is something that is
> difficult to explain to people who have never experienced it. I don't
> mean that in any snarky way. It's just been my experience that there's
> a disconnect occurring between people who have directly experienced
> G-d and those who have not, and the latter tend to write me off as crazy.
>
> Anyway, I've prayed and I've felt G-d's presence. When I've been
> depressed, spending time in prayer and meditation has lifted my
> depression and filled me instead with joy. I've also had felt sense
> messages from G-d--things like, "You're going to get a job by the end
> of the week"--and each time these predictions have come true. Not 90%
> of the time, not 95% of the time, not 99% of the time--100% of the time.
>
> Now, none of this means that my life is somehow perfect because I have
> aligned myself with G-d. I've had some difficult times in my life. I
> lived in poverty for two years. My boyfriend, who I loved so very
> much, died suddenly last August. And I've had the same heartbreaks as
> everyone else.
>
> Why, then, do I believe in G-d? Because as bad as things have
> sometimes gotten, I truly believe they would be worse if they weren't
> for Him. I don't think my brain could cope with the idea of some of
> the things I've experienced being random chance. I think that if it
> weren't for my faith that G-d has a larger plan and will make good
> come out of everything I've suffered through, I'd be a confused and
> frightened mess, always waiting for the next thing to go wrong, always
> worrying so much about what might happen that I wouldn't be able to
> function.
>
> Of all the reasons I believe in G-d, I think the replacement of fear
> with peace is the most important. My faith in G-d has translated for
> me into faith that I will have a good life. I'm no longer afraid to
> dream big and to stand by my dreams, no matter who tries to discourage
> me. I know that if I take good care of the things G-d has blessed me
> with, like my home and my car and my job, He will bless me with even
> more. I can wake up in the morning and be grateful for this beautiful
> world He has created and for my part in it instead of angry at the
> world for being broken and frightened of my own shortcomings.
>
> In conclusion, I believe in G-d because my faith is helping me to live
> my best vision of all life has to offer.
>
> One last thing: I'm talking about my life here on Earth. One mistake
> that I think many Christians make is focusing only on the glory of the
> world to come, and missing the central question of how to live this
> life. I'm iffy when it comes to afterlife stuff--my faith in this area
> is far from perfect. While I do believe that my soul and my
> boyfriend's will someday be intertwined for eternity, I'm a bit
> agnostic about what happens after death. I just don't worry about it.
> I'm here on Earth and I'm going to be the light of the world on Earth,
> not waste my time here waiting for the world to come.
>
> best,
> Stephanie
>
>
> --- In nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com, Mike Rael <mikesrael3@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Stephanie,
> >    Why do you believe in God?
>

Chris asks whether pain is truth:

> As an analogy: when the skin is cut or bruised, it becomes far more
> sensitive than normal skin.  -  can the same thing occur with emotions?

Now I'm thinking about that Joan Jett song:

We are not to blame
For thinking love is pain

I like Joan a lot.

But my experience and observation, with the observation being far more
probative than the experience, is that most people secretly* hope that
sudden sharp pain will make them finally get their act together.

And they're wrong. Nothing will make you stop being a jackass except wanting
to stop being a jackass. Nobody from the Hellraiser movies will save you.

Paris Hilton's recent unfortunate incarceration won't make much of a dent in
the end. That's why we hate her. She shows us how silly we can be if we
don't contend with constant misery. There but for the grace of money, go us.


God, how cool is that to live in this wonderful Western world where our
biggest fear is of turning into a ridiculous pampered asshole?

Paris and Nicole are the ones who need Sally Struthers to feed them. Go USA!

Mike Lee
Pain is a concept by which we measure our God

* I used the word secretly very deliberately in place of unconsciously.

Dear Dr. B,

When you posted your announcement of your blog, the message was blank.
Nobody knows how to get to your blog.

Some kind of Yahoo anti-spam thing was the reason, probably, that your
announcement went blank. Although it could have been Tony Soprano getting
shot in the head.

(Has anyone else slowly and irrevocably fallen in love with that ending like
I have? From what people around me say, evidently I'm the only one who is
dealing with it maturely.

(Most people are still in denial about Tony's brains ending up all over the
fries. It was the most beautifully horribly violent thing I've ever seen.
Weeks later, I'm still haunted by it. And, my personal theory is that the
ingratiating FBI agent set up both Tony and Phil beautifully. Go back and
watch his reaction when he hears that Phil is dead.

(I've watched The Sopranos since the beginning, but Diane hadn't. So we've
been catching up on them via DVD. We were behind when everything was getting
close to ending, and we knew it would be harder to not hear what happened
than to not hear who won American Idol. The weekend before, we watched all
of the Season 6 DVDs and snarled at everyone to shut the hell up till about
Thursday after the finale when we finale got to see it in stunned silence,
like we were supposed to.

(Watching Season 6 all at once was like reading a really good novel. A
couple years from now, we'll go back and do a Sopranos multi-week marathon,
turning into total Sopranos-geeks, and maybe start to appreciate what an
amazing, focused, deeply backstoried accomplishment this series was. I'm
having to think hard about whether I still think Six Feet Under is the best
thing ever on television. I may be still somewhat in awe at how
pitch-perfect that final Sopranos episode was. God I love capitalism. The
ante just ups and ups, even on art.

(The SFU finale was a metaphysical tour de force, but that sudden
unexpected/deserved/expected/inevitable/accidental/tragic/about-time death
at the end of the Sopranos--that's stayed with me a lot longer.)

Anyhow, back to Dr. B's blog.....

I tried googling to find it, and the first several links I found were
Princess Diana hissying and fittying like Dr Girlfriend from The Venture
Brothers.

Microsoft's search engine was less pejorative, but still couldn't find the
Dr B Blog.

I didn't see a link on Dr B's own web site for the blog, but I only looked
for a minute or two.

The fact that it is not already featured prominently on Dr B's website
indicates strongly that the Dr. B webmaster should be drawn, quartered,
mutilated, folded, spindled and defenestrated.

Mike Lee
I hope Meadow didn't pay a lot for that dress



> -----Original Message-----
> From: nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of n6666b@...
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 3:50 PM
> To: nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [nathaniel_branden] Fwd: my new blog
>
> Sorry; I have no idea what your email note is about.
>
> Nathaniel Branden   </HTML>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Visit Nathaniel Branden's web site at:
> http://www.nathanielbranden.com/
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

dear dr branden:

on 1 july, an email came out from your email address to the list, thus:

  > To: nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com
  > From: n6666b@...
  > Subject: [nathaniel_branden] Fwd: my new blog

but its text was blank. i was concerned something important had
gotten omitted. (it'd be wonderful to see a nathaniel branden blog.)

perhaps the email was not meant for the list?


michael

Sorry; I have no idea what your email note is about.

Nathaniel Branden   </HTML>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've been curious whether emotional pain can be misused to gain
emotional sensitivity.

As an analogy: when the skin is cut or bruised, it becomes far more
sensitive than normal skin.  -  can the same thing occur with emotions?

Some people prefer drama in their lives, or they find a heightened
sense of emotional awareness during pain and struggle.  During such
times, every emotion becomes stronger.  I feel it in myself, during
times of intense and complicated emotional issues - breakups, death,
deep sickness of loved ones.

If it is possible that an individual will hold themselves in a
constant state of pain/struggle in order to maintain the concurring
emotional sensitivity, I wonder: can arising emotions such as love,
experienced during these pain states, be considered of the same value
as the love that arises when outside of these states?

My thoughts are to approach this from a value-based system, which asks
the question:  are the values during pain/struggle states unnatural to
daily/normal life, or are they more natural, more honest and
fundamental to one's spirit?


Christopher

Mike asks us to imagine:

> How much better off we all could be without the evils of religion is
> unimaginable!

I'm not so sure of this as I used to be. I don't think it's so much the
decline in religious faith that has improved the world over the last few
centuries as it is the rise in respectability of intellectual pluralism.
Intellectual pluralism is deadly to religious fundamentalism, but that's a
happy side effect, not the centrally important change.

I've come to think that what people believe isn't near as important as for
them to understand very deeply--gut level--that there are other people who
think very differently, and those other people aren't therefore evil, crazy
or exceptionally deluded.

In the last few years, I'm finding myself more and more on the side of
religious people against "blue state" or "reality based" people who are
increasingly becoming mindless bigots against the religious. I use the word
bigot very carefully and very literally. For quite a few of the enlightened
people I am around here in Seattle, being a Baptist is exactly as low class
and reprehensible as being one of those Ned Beatty-raping hillbillies from
Deliverance. It's not sure whether inbreeding and living in the backwoods
leads to being a Baptist, or vice versa, but they're all certain there's a
strong causative link or loop.

Just for fun, I love to defend George Bush at cocktail parties in Seattle
because I love baiting true believers, and most of the people who hate Bush
have less intellectual ammunition to back themselves up than backwoods
Baptists do for preferring immersion to sprinkling.

Whatever ideology is dominant will attract the stupid, the credulous and the
poseurs, and that's why liberalism in Seattle is at least as intolerant and
twitchy as conservatism in Kentucky. It's incredible how easy it is to make
these pseudo-intellectual putzes lose their tempers by making even the
mildest and most reasonable objections to their slogans.

Mike Lee
Poking at badgers with spoons

Mike wonders why atheists live in little separate foxholes:

> Yet I have always wondered why those outside religion don't make more
> attempts to
> replace religion with more reasonable and positive activities including
> using some of the
> positive features of religious fellowships and group activities.

I think that Charles Murray's "little platoons" idea applies here. In short,
Murray says that in order to have cohesive social groups, they must organize
around something important that needs doing and that won't get done if the
group doesn't exist. In Murray's view, this is one reason that allowing
government to provide a perfect social safety net is destructive to
community: welfare programs co-opt a very important purpose that voluntary
organizations used to fulfill. Now, such organizations are ancillary at
best, and have the wind taken out of their sails.

Secularist and humanist organizations are more like hobbyist organizations
than like churches. They don't have a central organizing principle that is
strong enough to create a sense of community that goes beyond a narrow
shared interest.

Mike Lee
Sundays are for sleeping

Stephanie,

I am sorry about your boyfriend.  When we lose those we love, we have
a terrible wound that needs to heal and an emptiness where something
good was.  Consider that if you were close, part of him lives on in you.
The impact he had on the universe includes you and that goes on.

To quote Robert Heinlien  "Thou art God."  While I do not agree with
your ideas, they seem to be helping you organize your life.   I suspect you
have identified as God some part of yourself or a projection of your ideals
that
speaks to you.  "God" resides inside not out there.  The sense of peace
may come from the state of meditation which you generate.

The following paragraph is why I am replying, it puzzles me.
Do you really mean this?

> On a more theoretical level, I believe that Christ's life prior to His
> resurrection is a testimony to the strength of truth and the way that
> fear and lies try to, but ultimately fail, to destroy it. While I know
> that I am not suffering for my truth in the ways that Christ suffered
> for His, it gives me comfort and strength to realize that whenever one
> tries to live by the truth, there are those who will try to destroy
> them in the name of protecting whatever passes for reality in their
> minds. I also find Christ's call to be the "light of the world"
> inspiring, and I am living that call every day.

It gives you comfort to know that there are those who try to destroy
truth?  How is this possible?  If you had said that God protects you
from them or that Jesus' example gave you inspiration to face your
own struggles, that would have made sense and may have been
what you meant.  But it came out otherwise and to take comfort
in the fact that enemies exist needs some explanation.

And were you from a Christian background before and just
decided to join the Church or was it all new to you?  This is mere curiosity
based on my thinking about how people come to believe stories like that of
Jesus.

Good luck with your problems.  Problems usually have solutions.

Ellen

> [Original Message]
> From: stephanie_m_silberstein <stephanie_m_silberstein@...>
> To: <nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: 7/1/2007 4:51:27 PM
> Subject: [nathaniel_branden] Re: Leaving the church
>
> Mike R., you've asked what sounds like a simple question but which is
> actually quite a bit more complicated than it seems. A full answer may
> be beyond the scope of this list--however, I'll do the best I can to
> answer.
>
> Before getting to that, however, I'd like to clarify why I'm answering
> at all. I don't want to take the list in the direction of debating
> religion vs. non-religion, particularly if participants are bent upon
> convincing those who disagree that their beliefs are wrong. I do,
> however, want to express the truth as I see it, and hope that others
> are   interested.
>
> Now, I have many reasons for my belief in G-d. They mainly boil down
> to the simple fact that my life before faith was a nightmare I would
> never want to return to. I was a frightened, angry confused mess of a
> person, a girl in a woman's body who held herself to impossibly high
> standards and hated herself for failing to achieve them. I lived by
> the emotion of the moment while wishing I could be more rational. I
> had very little respect for myself or for the world in general for not
> being as it should be, and I made poor choices most of the time based
> upon a desire to force the world to act as it ought to.
>
> My embracing of G-d, and specifically of Christ, changed all that.
>
> You see, my basic values haven't changed. I still believe passionately
> in the importance of ideals such as integrity, truth, and fairness. I
> still believe that my life is a precious gift not to be squandered,
> and in making every moment count.
>
> However, with G-d in my life, I'm able to express those values rather
> than get mired down in hatred for the world when it doesn't work the
> way it ought to. Instead of trying to be this perfectly moral person
> in an immoral world on my own, I work in partnership with G-d. I allow
> Him to help me to continue doing that which I know is right to do even
> when the world is trying to wear me down.
>
> On a more theoretical level, I believe that Christ's life prior to His
> resurrection is a testimony to the strength of truth and the way that
> fear and lies try to, but ultimately fail, to destroy it. While I know
> that I am not suffering for my truth in the ways that Christ suffered
> for His, it gives me comfort and strength to realise that whenever one
> tries to live by the truth, there are those who will try to destroy
> them in the name of protecting whatever passes for reality in their
> minds. I also find Christ's call to be the "light of the world"
> inspiring, and I am living that call every day.
>
> As if all that weren't enough, I have experienced a personal
> relationship with G-d which has allowed me to trust Him and to allow
> Him to lead me forward through my life. This is something that is
> difficult to explain to people who have never experienced it. I don't
> mean that in any snarky way. It's just been my experience that there's
> a disconnect occurring between people who have directly experienced
> G-d and those who have not, and the latter tend to write me off as crazy.
>
> Anyway, I've prayed and I've felt G-d's presence. When I've been
> depressed, spending time in prayer and meditation has lifted my
> depression and filled me instead with joy. I've also had felt sense
> messages from G-d--things like, "You're going to get a job by the end
> of the week"--and each time these predictions have come true. Not 90%
> of the time, not 95% of the time, not 99% of the time--100% of the time.
>
> Now, none of this means that my life is somehow perfect because I have
> aligned myself with G-d. I've had some difficult times in my life. I
> lived in poverty for two years. My boyfriend, who I loved so very
> much, died suddenly last August. And I've had the same heartbreaks as
> everyone else.
>
> Why, then, do I believe in G-d? Because as bad as things have
> sometimes gotten, I truly believe they would be worse if they weren't
> for Him. I don't think my brain could cope with the idea of some of
> the things I've experienced being random chance. I think that if it
> weren't for my faith that G-d has a larger plan and will make good
> come out of everything I've suffered through, I'd be a confused and
> frightened mess, always waiting for the next thing to go wrong, always
> worrying so much about what might happen that I wouldn't be able to
> function.
>
> Of all the reasons I believe in G-d, I think the replacement of fear
> with peace is the most important. My faith in G-d has translated for
> me into faith that I will have a good life. I'm no longer afraid to
> dream big and to stand by my dreams, no matter who tries to discourage
> me. I know that if I take good care of the things G-d has blessed me
> with, like my home and my car and my job, He will bless me with even
> more. I can wake up in the morning and be grateful for this beautiful
> world He has created and for my part in it instead of angry at the
> world for being broken and frightened of my own shortcomings.
>
> In conclusion, I believe in G-d because my faith is helping me to live
> my best vision of all life has to offer.
>
> One last thing: I'm talking about my life here on Earth. One mistake
> that I think many Christians make is focusing only on the glory of the
> world to come, and missing the central question of how to live this
> life. I'm iffy when it comes to afterlife stuff--my faith in this area
> is far from perfect. While I do believe that my soul and my
> boyfriend's will someday be intertwined for eternity, I'm a bit
> agnostic about what happens after death. I just don't worry about it.
> I'm here on Earth and I'm going to be the light of the world on Earth,
> not waste my time here waiting for the world to come.
>
> best,
> Stephanie
>
>
> --- In nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com, Mike Rael <mikesrael3@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Stephanie,
> >    Why do you believe in God?
>

Mike R., you've asked what sounds like a simple question but which is
actually quite a bit more complicated than it seems. A full answer may
be beyond the scope of this list--however, I'll do the best I can to
answer.

Before getting to that, however, I'd like to clarify why I'm answering
at all. I don't want to take the list in the direction of debating
religion vs. non-religion, particularly if participants are bent upon
convincing those who disagree that their beliefs are wrong. I do,
however, want to express the truth as I see it, and hope that others
are   interested.

Now, I have many reasons for my belief in G-d. They mainly boil down
to the simple fact that my life before faith was a nightmare I would
never want to return to. I was a frightened, angry confused mess of a
person, a girl in a woman's body who held herself to impossibly high
standards and hated herself for failing to achieve them. I lived by
the emotion of the moment while wishing I could be more rational. I
had very little respect for myself or for the world in general for not
being as it should be, and I made poor choices most of the time based
upon a desire to force the world to act as it ought to.

My embracing of G-d, and specifically of Christ, changed all that.

You see, my basic values haven't changed. I still believe passionately
in the importance of ideals such as integrity, truth, and fairness. I
still believe that my life is a precious gift not to be squandered,
and in making every moment count.

However, with G-d in my life, I'm able to express those values rather
than get mired down in hatred for the world when it doesn't work the
way it ought to. Instead of trying to be this perfectly moral person
in an immoral world on my own, I work in partnership with G-d. I allow
Him to help me to continue doing that which I know is right to do even
when the world is trying to wear me down.

On a more theoretical level, I believe that Christ's life prior to His
resurrection is a testimony to the strength of truth and the way that
fear and lies try to, but ultimately fail, to destroy it. While I know
that I am not suffering for my truth in the ways that Christ suffered
for His, it gives me comfort and strength to realise that whenever one
tries to live by the truth, there are those who will try to destroy
them in the name of protecting whatever passes for reality in their
minds. I also find Christ's call to be the "light of the world"
inspiring, and I am living that call every day.

As if all that weren't enough, I have experienced a personal
relationship with G-d which has allowed me to trust Him and to allow
Him to lead me forward through my life. This is something that is
difficult to explain to people who have never experienced it. I don't
mean that in any snarky way. It's just been my experience that there's
a disconnect occurring between people who have directly experienced
G-d and those who have not, and the latter tend to write me off as crazy.

Anyway, I've prayed and I've felt G-d's presence. When I've been
depressed, spending time in prayer and meditation has lifted my
depression and filled me instead with joy. I've also had felt sense
messages from G-d--things like, "You're going to get a job by the end
of the week"--and each time these predictions have come true. Not 90%
of the time, not 95% of the time, not 99% of the time--100% of the time.

Now, none of this means that my life is somehow perfect because I have
aligned myself with G-d. I've had some difficult times in my life. I
lived in poverty for two years. My boyfriend, who I loved so very
much, died suddenly last August. And I've had the same heartbreaks as
everyone else.

Why, then, do I believe in G-d? Because as bad as things have
sometimes gotten, I truly believe they would be worse if they weren't
for Him. I don't think my brain could cope with the idea of some of
the things I've experienced being random chance. I think that if it
weren't for my faith that G-d has a larger plan and will make good
come out of everything I've suffered through, I'd be a confused and
frightened mess, always waiting for the next thing to go wrong, always
worrying so much about what might happen that I wouldn't be able to
function.

Of all the reasons I believe in G-d, I think the replacement of fear
with peace is the most important. My faith in G-d has translated for
me into faith that I will have a good life. I'm no longer afraid to
dream big and to stand by my dreams, no matter who tries to discourage
me. I know that if I take good care of the things G-d has blessed me
with, like my home and my car and my job, He will bless me with even
more. I can wake up in the morning and be grateful for this beautiful
world He has created and for my part in it instead of angry at the
world for being broken and frightened of my own shortcomings.

In conclusion, I believe in G-d because my faith is helping me to live
my best vision of all life has to offer.

One last thing: I'm talking about my life here on Earth. One mistake
that I think many Christians make is focusing only on the glory of the
world to come, and missing the central question of how to live this
life. I'm iffy when it comes to afterlife stuff--my faith in this area
is far from perfect. While I do believe that my soul and my
boyfriend's will someday be intertwined for eternity, I'm a bit
agnostic about what happens after death. I just don't worry about it.
I'm here on Earth and I'm going to be the light of the world on Earth,
not waste my time here waiting for the world to come.

best,
Stephanie


--- In nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com, Mike Rael <mikesrael3@...>
wrote:
>
> Stephanie,
>    Why do you believe in God?

At 02:35 PM 7/1/2007 -0400, NB wrote:

  >

nb -

f.y.i., that message came through here as a blank.

very interested to see your blog!


michael

mike9says <mike9says@...> wrote:

>  Yet I have always wondered why those outside religion don't
> make more attempts to  replace religion with more reasonable
> and positive activities including using some of the  positive
> features of religious fellowships and group activities.
>
>  Instead of Sunday school why not Sunday group fellowships to
> discuss better philosophies  and at least teach the laws of
> logic and ways to use and experiences to try to use. Instead
> of religious picnics for example, why not more picnics and
> friendly get togethers by  various groups? Instead of
> religious groups to work together and support friends and
> neighbors and strangers, why not just people meeting together
> to voluntarily do the same?
>
>  Instead of religious preaching services, why not speakers to
> promote better moral ideas?
>  Why not songs to sing and inspire reasonable and friendly
> behavior and celebrate the joys  of life?

You mean activities that are spiritual, but not religious?

It's unclear from your post just how much of these kind of activities you
are aware of, but you do think that we should be doing more.

I don't know about others, but the non-religious, life-nurturing fellowship
I particpate in has quite a few unusual characteristics, one of which is the
tradition of "Attraction rather than promotion".

Lance

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stephanie,
    Why do you believe in God?
Mike Rael

Stephanie Silberstein <stephanie_m_silberstein@...> wrote:
I don't quite know what to say.

  As a  believer in Christ, I feel insulted by your post. Perhaps you weren't
talking to me, given your first paragraph; however, I find the idea that I am
"handicapped" by my religious beliefs insulting. Faith hasn't weakened me; it's
strengthened me. It hasn't destroyed my intellect; it's allowed me to embrace my
abilities. It hasn't caused me to hate myself or others; it's energized me to
make my desire to make the world a better place into a reality.

  As for the rest of your post, I don't see why secular seminars and religious
ones are mutually exclusive. There's very little philosophy in the religious
services I go to that Ayn Rand would disagree with if she could look past the
fact that the speakers believe in G-d.

  I don't think the existence of religion is a tragedy. I think the insistence of
some people, whether theist or atheist, that they have a monopoly on the truth
is. I think religious and secular philosophy has a lot more in common than
people think, and we're all so busy arguing over who's right or wrong that we
lose sight of our actual ideas.

  As for the OP--Mike L., my experience is that when people are making major life
decisions they just need to see their thoughts and feelings clearly so they can
decide what to do. I don't think it matters whether you agree with their
religious beliefs or not. I think they need someone to listen, to be empathetic,
and to ask open-ended questions that point them in the right direction--but not
to try to push for one solution or another, because ultimately whatever they
decide, they have to live with it. I hope that makes sense. I know what I mean
but I'm not expressing myself very well at the moment.

  mike9says <mike9says@...> wrote:                                 
Appreciate your thoughtful comments. I agree that many who are active in
religions or
   who don't participate but have strong religious beliefs still manage to live
and improve life
   and do practice so many good ways of living.

   I nonetheless find religions a terrible burden and handicap for most and a
huge tragedy
   for people I care about and for mankind.

   How much better off we all could be without the evils of religion is
unimaginable!

   Yet I have always wondered why those outside religion don't make more attempts
to
   replace religion with more reasonable and positive activities including using
some of the
   positive features of religious fellowships and group activities.

   Instead of Sunday school why not Sunday group fellowships to discuss better
philosophies
   and at least teach the laws of logic and ways to use and experiences to try to
use. Instead
   of religious picnics for example, why not more picnics and friendly get
togethers by
   various groups? Instead of religious groups to work together and support
friends and
   neighbors and strangers, why not just people meeting together to voluntarily
do the same?

   Instead of religious preaching services, why not speakers to promote better
moral ideas?
   Why not songs to sing and inspire reasonable and friendly behavior and
celebrate the joys
   of life?

   Some Thoughts,

   Mike Gillespie

   --- In nathaniel_branden@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Lee" <mikelee.home@...>
wrote:
   >
   > I was raised Mormon. I still have lots of Mormon friends.
   >
   >
   >
   > In the last week, statistical blip, two of my Mormon friends have approached
   > me with the news that they are starting to suspect that Jesus sucks.
   >
   >
   >
   > Years ago, I would have pounced. I have more than a few dozen scalps on my
   > apostasy-post, and all of the people I have scalped are still close or I'm
   > glad to hear from them.  I have no experience of making anyone's life worse
   > by tempting them to jettison their faith.
   >
   >
   >
   > But it's been a long time since I've counted coup-at least 15 years since
   > I've destroyed anyone's religious beliefs, with or without their consent.
   >
   >
   >
   > I suspect that this is a much more delicate operation when someone's
   > 40-something instead of 20-something.
   >
   >
   >
   > My in-laws are 60-something and they believe in Christian stuff that is such
   > asinine crap. I would love to say that they are great people in spite of
   > their beliefs, but the reasonable position is to say it is because of their
   > beliefs. That's how they explain it and that's the way it looks.
   >
   >
   >
   > Their beliefs organize their life, and it's pretty damn organized and
   > admirable. They are tolerant and charitable. They pray a lot and don't spend
   > much time judging. They are active in the Tennessee Republican Party, and
   > they're against stem cell research but are genuinely hospitable and warm and
   > nice and un-patronizing to our gay friends (and they know all about the
   > gayness).
   >
   >
   >
   > Occasionally (every couple of years), they gently try to evangelize me, and
   > I take those moments as seriously as someone defusing the bomb at the end of
   > a thriller. My main goal is to do nothing to harm their faith. I don't want
   > to plant a seed of doubt, to disturb a beautiful ecology that I just don't
   > understand.
   >
   >
   >
   > I'm not saying they're convincing me of this horseshit. I'm saying I'm
   > getting interested in the alchemy of horseshit.
   >
   >
   >
   > On the other hand, I don't want to deny aid and comfort to people looking to
   > Escape the Elders by being too agnostic and empathetic. Marriages and
   > children and careers are at stake here. I'm having a hard time knowing what
   > to say, not because what I say is so important but because other people
   > think it is and nothing I can say will convince them otherwise.
   >
   >
   >
   > Mike Lee
   >
   > Poor Little Rich Girl
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >





  There&#39;s enough room in this world for everybody to be successful.
  In memory of David Newton (1962-2006)

  Stephanie Silberstein: Writer, Author, Thinker - the official homepage

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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