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Re: Response to NB's Essay   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #5707 of 21115 |
Re: [nathaniel_branden] Re: Response to NB's Essay

Hi Steve,
I will try to be more clear in my formulation.
Again as I stated numerous times in my previous
emails, I accept libertarianism when taken in the
political context of meaning a minimalist state and
individual rights. Taken in this narrow political
context I never stated that there is something with
libertarianism per se, as suggest you suggest. And in
this context, my argument was that ~capitalism~ is a
far superior term due to its acknowledged historical
success, its historically acquired positive
connotation, the fact that it is more universally
understood, etc. In summary, taken as a political
position, ~libertarianism~ is valid, but inferior to
~capitalism~.
Next I examined ~libertarianism~ from the more
fundamental philosophical point of view. I did this in
answer to those who argue that ~libertarianism~ should
be used instead of ~capitalism~ because it is wider
and more comprehensive philosophically. Now when you
examine the libertarian canon from a deeper
philosophical point of view instead of just the
political one, you find it IS a failure of
integration. The main thinkers and writers are all
over the map when they try to ground it in a
philosophic base. You make a false dichotomy here
when you state that I do not properly distinguish
between the libertarian MOVEMENT and the libertarian
POSITION. My question would be, how do you divorce
the movement (which I take to mean the main writers
and thinkers of that particular ideology) from the
positions they advocate?
I guess I can best illustrate my point by using
another example. Say I am a regular person who finds
myself in agreement with the political positions of
libertarianism. In order to get a better
understanding of the basis of libertarianism, I decide
to read some books by prominent libertarian authors,
subscribe to libertarian publications, and so forth.
What would I learn about the ethical basis of
libertarianism? How about the epistemological basis?
I agree that taken just politically, there is
nothing wrong with libertarianism per se. However,
one's philosophy does not represent a grab-bag of
positions--atheism grabbed from here, libertarianism
grabbed from there, and so on. Philosophically, one
starts with objective reality and reason, then one
works up to rational selfishess, and then on to
individual rights and voluntarism. You must observe
the hierarchy and build from the ground up, not from
the top down.
In short, what I am really saying is
Objectivists need not unify with libertarians because
stated political ends may be the same. ~Capitalism~
is more than adequate to cover the political/economic
position and adopting ~libertarianism~ will only muddy
the waters. Not because ~libertarianism~ is an
invalid political position per se, but when the
philosophic context of its main writers and thinkers
is observed, you get a hash of conflicts and
contradictions.
Objectivists should just be objectivists, and when
advocating a political/economic position, let's make
it ~capitalism~, not ~libertarianism~.
Flourish,
Michael

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Fri Mar 28, 2003 9:33 pm

moeller_log
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Message #5707 of 21115 |
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From: <n6666b@...> ... and ... on ... I just did, in my response to Peter Smitt, but perhaps with all these postings, it got lost, so here is my response,...
Monica Pignotti
mpignotti2001
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Mar 26, 2003
3:57 pm

Monica, That many people are confused about Objectivism and about libertarianism hardly needs to be argued. That is why, in my own books, I define precisely ...
n6666b@...
nat6branden
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Mar 26, 2003
4:19 pm

... confusion ... One could cut ... Dr. Branden, I don't believe Schwartz was attacking libertarianism with small l, just like he wouldn't attack liberalism....
Free Capitalist
hash113
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Mar 26, 2003
4:55 pm

... To the best of my knowledge, TOC is friendly with small-l libertarian think tanks like Cato, but has never been anything like "buddies" with the LP. Where...
Diana M Hsieh
dmbrickell
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Mar 26, 2003
5:12 pm

Frankly I always thought Cato was, if not exclusively an LP think tank, at least not condemning of the Party. Same with IHS (Institute of Humane Studies). They...
Free Capitalist
hash113
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Mar 26, 2003
5:27 pm

... Cato abhors the LP. I know; I interned there for 6 months while in college. Ed Crane, in fact, founded Cato because he was completely fed up with the LP....
Diana M Hsieh
dmbrickell
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Mar 26, 2003
5:39 pm

I appreciate and agree with the points made by Dr. B. and Diana. I was once intrigued by the fact that Ayn Rand had told writer Joan Kennedy Taylor that her...
Chris Matthew Sciabarra
sciabarra
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Mar 26, 2003
5:59 pm

... drawing ... well ... a ... You said that this was circa 1963-64, before the LP had been established. In her essay of a much later date (the 70s), "What Can...
mpignotti2001
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Mar 26, 2003
7:48 pm

Great Topic. I am going to have to take the side of Rand on this one for many reasons. NB writes: "I've needed to say, "I'm not a Democrat nor a Republican,...
Michael Moeller
moeller_log
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Mar 27, 2003
7:44 am

The main problem I have with Mr. Moellor's comments, is that he fails to properly distinguish, the difference between a political PARTY, and a philosophical...
barger9999
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Mar 27, 2003
7:52 pm

Libertarian Party is an organization, and at its face value should be embracing the libertarian values, which I classify it as the economic/political branch of...
Jak
jkarako
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Mar 27, 2003
9:35 pm

Hi Steve, Thanks for your feedback, although I think you have a significant misunderstanding of the crux of my argument. First of all, I did not state anywhere...
Michael Moeller
moeller_log
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Mar 28, 2003
7:21 am

Dear Michael; You'd be surprised at how much we're in agreement on! The areas of disagreement are important to focus on, here, though. Let me explain. You...
barger9999
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Mar 28, 2003
7:58 pm

Hi Steve, I will try to be more clear in my formulation. Again as I stated numerous times in my previous emails, I accept libertarianism when taken in the ...
Michael Moeller
moeller_log
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Mar 28, 2003
9:33 pm

Steve, I more thing I wanted to say. You write: "If someone holds the POSITION of libertarianism, but is a nihilist, and a subjectivist, they are still a ...
Michael Moeller
moeller_log
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Mar 28, 2003
10:15 pm

Diana, thanks for information. Why is it that none of the classical liberal/libertarian think tanks officially disassociate themselves with LP? Or maybe I...
Free Capitalist
hash113
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Mar 27, 2003
5:23 am

Hash, though I can't (and wouldn't dare presume) to speak for the classical liberal think tanks, I would suspect that they don't "disassociate themselves" from...
William Bacon
guyintherear
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Mar 27, 2003
11:33 am

... What's the mistake here, and what's wrong with a "foggy conglomeration"? All the groups you mention do more good than harm, and share a fundamental respect...
Mike Lee
michaellee98034
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Mar 26, 2003
6:36 pm

... In fact, Peter Schwartz was indeed attacking LibertarianISM, not just the L.P. His essay was titled "LibertarianISM: The Perversion of Liberty". He makes...
barger9999
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Mar 26, 2003
5:53 pm

Nathaniel, I appreciate your response. Because the origin of the term is unclear, I'm still not comfortable calling myself a "libertarian", even with a small...
Monica Pignotti
mpignotti2001
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Mar 26, 2003
5:38 pm

... Hi Monica, Shouldn't the common understanding of the term today matter more than its origin? (Most people, after all, have no idea of its origin. And...
Diana M Hsieh
dmbrickell
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Mar 26, 2003
5:49 pm

... My experience differs greatly, especially when discussing the subject with people who have more than minimal knowledge of politics. When people say that...
Mike Lee
michaellee98034
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Mar 26, 2003
6:36 pm

I confess I took for granted that everyone on this list knew that "Libertarianism" and "libertarianism" are two totally different animals. NB [Non-text...
n6666b@...
nat6branden
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Mar 26, 2003
8:54 pm

Well said, Chris. nb [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]...
n6666b@...
nat6branden
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Mar 26, 2003
9:03 pm

"Chris"?...
martingoodfellow8
martingoodfe...
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Mar 27, 2003
12:39 am

Michael Moeller <moeller_log@...> wrote: [I've snipped many very excellent points he very eloquently made, to get to this one very important conclusion...
Monica Pignotti
mpignotti2001
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Mar 27, 2003
5:02 pm

It might help people understand the difference between oppsing the Libertarian PARTY, vs. opposing (small 'l') libertarianISM, to think of it this way: I can...
barger9999
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Mar 27, 2003
7:25 pm

... Since the question was asked, I'd like to affirm this postion, as well. I've been a Libertarian since 1977, and believe it's worth defending. I even ran ...
SnowDog
cchaynie
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Mar 27, 2003
9:47 pm
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