Search the web
Sign In
New User? Sign Up
nathaniel_branden · Dr. Nathaniel Branden
? Already a member? Sign in to Yahoo!

Yahoo! Groups Tips

Did you know...
Message search is now enhanced, find messages faster. Take it for a spin.

Best of Y! Groups

   Check them out and nominate your group.
Having problems with message search? Fill out this form to ensure your group is one of the first to be migrated to the new message search system.

Messages

  Messages Help
Advanced
Re: Response to NB's Essay   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #5683 of 21115 |
Re: [nathaniel_branden] Re: Response to NB's Essay

Hi Steve,
Thanks for your feedback, although I think you have
a significant misunderstanding of the crux of my
argument.
First of all, I did not state anywhere in my email
that "libertarianism as a political position is
somehow corrupted, because allegedly a lot of openly
unsavory people are L.P. members". I stated nothing
about LP members. My argument stems from an analysis
of the small-l libertarian canon, not the sundry
members of the LP.
Steve writes that I fail "to properly distinguish,
the difference between a political PARTY, and a
philosophical POSITION." Again, I do not reference
the LP; but I do see small-l libertarianism as a
politico-economic position, NOT a philosophical
position. And by philosophical I mean grounded in
metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics. If you
disagree with my statement, I have a challenge for
you. David Boaz, Ludwig von Mises, Douglas Casey,
Nathaniel Branden, Murray Rothbard, Mark Skousen are
just a few of the many libertarian thinkers and
writers. My challenge is this: find a common
metaphysical/epistemological/ethical foundation among
these thinkers. It would be difficult even among just
two of these thinkers. They often disagree
considerably on political/economic theory as well.
My argument was never that small-l libertarianism,
properly defined, does not represent classic
liberalism. I fully understand this. Many consider
Locke to be the fountainhead of classic liberalism
political philosophy, but does that make his ideas of
pseudo-Cartesian representationalism correct and
consistent with respect to his political philosophy?
Certainly not. The same holds true for libertarians.
There is no common philosophical base structure. My
main argument was that libertarianism is a failure of
INTEGRATION into a broader philosophical context, and
therefore detrimental to Objectivists who adopt the
position. They are, in effect, compromising their
core philosophical principles to achieve an agreement
concerning political ends. The causal relationship is
reversed.
I will draw on The Fountainhead to best illustrate
my point. The modern architects destroy the unity of
the buildings by compromising all sorts of
conflicting architectural principles and styles, such
as putting ridiculous facades and ornamentation on a
modern skyscraper. Small-l libertarians are inverted
modern architects. They have an attractive outer
facade in the form of classical liberal politics, but
a hideous foundation and skeletal structure, or in
some cases, none at all. This type of philosophical
building will not stand up. I used to wonder why
libertarianism has not grabbed a major foot-hold since
it has been around for quite awhile now. I think this
lack of philosophical integration is the answer.
There is no appeal to the more fundamental
epistemological/ethical principles. Contrast this
with the Greens in Europe who have had major success
because of the appeal to the altruist moral code.
NB states in "We're All Libertarians Now" that "we
stand for something wider and more comprehensive:
we're champions of individual rights. We're advocates
of a non-coercive society." I still think this is
within the politico-economic realm. I think the
cultural shift will occur with an appeal to reason,
objective reality, and rational self-interest. This
is even wider and more comprehensive than individual
rights/non-coercive society, which is really an
outgrowth. So if we are talking about a concept for
this wider philosophical context, libertarianism
clearly is inadequate. If we are talking a concept
for individual rights/political and economic freedom,
~libertarianism~ is significantly inferior to
~capitalism~ for the reasons I outlined in my previous
email. In addition, the libertarian canon is loaded
with philosophical baggage that is antithetical to
reason/self-interest fundamentals. So for outsiders
looking in on libertarianism, there is no clear and
cohesive foundation--all you have is a fourth floor
suspended in mid-air.
In regards to your argument concerning atheism and
Communism, I would first state that an automatic
connection here is generally not made between the two
as you suggest. It simply means lack of belief in God
or a deity. It does not mean that you adopt the
principles of Communism. I have known many atheists
from many different philosophical foundations, and the
direct connection to Communism is not automatically
made. It then becomes a matter of whether that
viewpoint fits into the wider philosophical context.
Note here that atheism represents a contradiction in
the Communist fundamentals. In Communism they do
support a power higher and the subjugation of man's
life, the only difference is that it is the
Proletariat will instead of the supernatural. They
deny man's mind, his free-will, and his
value-judgments. Man's values become a fait accompli
determined by his economic status. So in fact, the
Communist adoption of atheism represents a diversion
from their mystic/altruist/collectivist fundamentals.
Flourish,
Michael



__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com



Fri Mar 28, 2003 7:21 am

moeller_log
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email

Forward
Message #5683 of 21115 |
Expand Messages Author Sort by Date

From: <n6666b@...> ... and ... on ... I just did, in my response to Peter Smitt, but perhaps with all these postings, it got lost, so here is my response,...
Monica Pignotti
mpignotti2001
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
3:57 pm

Monica, That many people are confused about Objectivism and about libertarianism hardly needs to be argued. That is why, in my own books, I define precisely ...
n6666b@...
nat6branden
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
4:19 pm

... confusion ... One could cut ... Dr. Branden, I don't believe Schwartz was attacking libertarianism with small l, just like he wouldn't attack liberalism....
Free Capitalist
hash113
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
4:55 pm

... To the best of my knowledge, TOC is friendly with small-l libertarian think tanks like Cato, but has never been anything like "buddies" with the LP. Where...
Diana M Hsieh
dmbrickell
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
5:12 pm

Frankly I always thought Cato was, if not exclusively an LP think tank, at least not condemning of the Party. Same with IHS (Institute of Humane Studies). They...
Free Capitalist
hash113
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
5:27 pm

... Cato abhors the LP. I know; I interned there for 6 months while in college. Ed Crane, in fact, founded Cato because he was completely fed up with the LP....
Diana M Hsieh
dmbrickell
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
5:39 pm

I appreciate and agree with the points made by Dr. B. and Diana. I was once intrigued by the fact that Ayn Rand had told writer Joan Kennedy Taylor that her...
Chris Matthew Sciabarra
sciabarra
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
5:59 pm

... drawing ... well ... a ... You said that this was circa 1963-64, before the LP had been established. In her essay of a much later date (the 70s), "What Can...
mpignotti2001
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
7:48 pm

Great Topic. I am going to have to take the side of Rand on this one for many reasons. NB writes: "I've needed to say, "I'm not a Democrat nor a Republican,...
Michael Moeller
moeller_log
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2003
7:44 am

The main problem I have with Mr. Moellor's comments, is that he fails to properly distinguish, the difference between a political PARTY, and a philosophical...
barger9999
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2003
7:52 pm

Libertarian Party is an organization, and at its face value should be embracing the libertarian values, which I classify it as the economic/political branch of...
Jak
jkarako
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2003
9:35 pm

Hi Steve, Thanks for your feedback, although I think you have a significant misunderstanding of the crux of my argument. First of all, I did not state anywhere...
Michael Moeller
moeller_log
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2003
7:21 am

Dear Michael; You'd be surprised at how much we're in agreement on! The areas of disagreement are important to focus on, here, though. Let me explain. You...
barger9999
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2003
7:58 pm

Hi Steve, I will try to be more clear in my formulation. Again as I stated numerous times in my previous emails, I accept libertarianism when taken in the ...
Michael Moeller
moeller_log
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2003
9:33 pm

Steve, I more thing I wanted to say. You write: "If someone holds the POSITION of libertarianism, but is a nihilist, and a subjectivist, they are still a ...
Michael Moeller
moeller_log
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2003
10:15 pm

Diana, thanks for information. Why is it that none of the classical liberal/libertarian think tanks officially disassociate themselves with LP? Or maybe I...
Free Capitalist
hash113
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2003
5:23 am

Hash, though I can't (and wouldn't dare presume) to speak for the classical liberal think tanks, I would suspect that they don't "disassociate themselves" from...
William Bacon
guyintherear
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2003
11:33 am

... What's the mistake here, and what's wrong with a "foggy conglomeration"? All the groups you mention do more good than harm, and share a fundamental respect...
Mike Lee
michaellee98034
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
6:36 pm

... In fact, Peter Schwartz was indeed attacking LibertarianISM, not just the L.P. His essay was titled "LibertarianISM: The Perversion of Liberty". He makes...
barger9999
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
5:53 pm

Nathaniel, I appreciate your response. Because the origin of the term is unclear, I'm still not comfortable calling myself a "libertarian", even with a small...
Monica Pignotti
mpignotti2001
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
5:38 pm

... Hi Monica, Shouldn't the common understanding of the term today matter more than its origin? (Most people, after all, have no idea of its origin. And...
Diana M Hsieh
dmbrickell
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
5:49 pm

... My experience differs greatly, especially when discussing the subject with people who have more than minimal knowledge of politics. When people say that...
Mike Lee
michaellee98034
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
6:36 pm

I confess I took for granted that everyone on this list knew that "Libertarianism" and "libertarianism" are two totally different animals. NB [Non-text...
n6666b@...
nat6branden
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
8:54 pm

Well said, Chris. nb [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]...
n6666b@...
nat6branden
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
9:03 pm

"Chris"?...
martingoodfellow8
martingoodfe...
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2003
12:39 am

Michael Moeller <moeller_log@...> wrote: [I've snipped many very excellent points he very eloquently made, to get to this one very important conclusion...
Monica Pignotti
mpignotti2001
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2003
5:02 pm

It might help people understand the difference between oppsing the Libertarian PARTY, vs. opposing (small 'l') libertarianISM, to think of it this way: I can...
barger9999
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2003
7:25 pm

... Since the question was asked, I'd like to affirm this postion, as well. I've been a Libertarian since 1977, and believe it's worth defending. I even ran ...
SnowDog
cchaynie
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2003
9:47 pm
Advanced

Copyright © 2009 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy - Terms of Service - Guidelines - Help