Search the web
Sign In
New User? Sign Up
nathaniel_branden · Dr. Nathaniel Branden
? Already a member? Sign in to Yahoo!

Yahoo! Groups Tips

Did you know...
Real people. Real stories. See how Yahoo! Groups impacts members worldwide.

Best of Y! Groups

   Check them out and nominate your group.
Having problems with message search? Fill out this form to ensure your group is one of the first to be migrated to the new message search system.

Messages

  Messages Help
Advanced
Re: Response to NB's Essay   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #5650 of 21115 |
Re: [nathaniel_branden] Re: Response to NB's Essay

Great Topic. I am going to have to take the side of
Rand on this one for many reasons.
NB writes:
"I've needed to say, "I'm not a Democrat nor a
Republican, but a libertarian." Then listeners often
say, "Could you define libertarianism"--and we're off
to the races."
If this is the standard, then why not say that you
are classical liberal, and then put forth an
explanation of what that means. I assume many do not
follow this path because the concept has been
corrupted by modern liberalism. The same corruption
exists within the concept of libertarianism. The
problem with libertarianism is that it has two main
errors of integration.
The first integration failure is the problem of
essentials. When one posits a concept, it should, at
the very least, bring into focus its essential
characteristic(s). The essential feature, in the case
of libertarianism, should be a minimalist view of the
state where the state is constrained to protecting
individual rights. Does this essential characteristic
strike most people when the concept is put forth?
Hardly. I used to refer to myself as a small-l
libertarian, and almost nobody I argued with made the
integration of that concept on the terms I suggested
above. More often then not, many of these people
would equate me with either an anarchist, or a civil
libertarian. What's worse, there is a
feckless/"lunatic fringe" political connotation
associated with this concept. Like it or not,
libertarians are tainted with ineffectuality and
superfluity.
I subscribed to Liberty and read other libertarian
books and publications in order familiarize myself
with the philosophical foundations of libertarian
writings. I found that the writers came from all over
the philosophical map. Some defended the minimalist
state with religious views (many are religious), some
were anarchists, others were pseudo-collectivists, and
so on. Since Objectivism has such a strict
philosophical structure, why would I want to unite
with such an unsavory hash of ideas? I decided to
treat libertarianism the same way I do conservatism,
that is, to let them fight the battle for liberty on
their own grounds. Even though the stated political
ends may be the same, I don't think it can be properly
defended on their grounds. Many of these people may
be won over to the side of Objectivism, but
Objectivists gain nothing from throwing themselves
into the same political ring. In fact, it hurts the
philosophical foundation of Objectivism because an
invalid philosophical association will be drawn due to
their political association.
This leads into what I think is the 2nd failure of
integration with regards to libertarianism, namely
that the concept is not conjoined to a broader
epistemological/ethical framework. What is the
libertarian ethical defense of the minimalist state
and individual rights? If you look to much of the
libertarian canon, the answer will come out of a
muddle of conflicting and contradictory ethical
principles (utilitarianism, hedonism, etc.). My
thoughts are that people need to agree on
ethical/epistemological grounds, then the
politico-economic premises will be a natural
outgrowth. If we instead say, "Well, we agree on
political ends, let's worry about the philosophical
differences later", all that will result is an
incoherent, non-foundational, floating jumble--which
is exactly what libertarianism IS!!! The fact that
one must distinguish between libertarianism and
Libertarianism is itself proof of the convoluted
nature of this concept.
Chris points out that libertarians are primarily
concerned with politico-economy, and as Objectivists,
"we derive our politics and economics from a certain
philosophical framework..." This is precisely why
libertarianism is pernicious with respect to
Objectivism--it ignores the hierarchy of knowledge.
Without this hierarchical context, the individualist
political principles CANNOT be properly defended. As
further proof, read Liberty or other libertarian
publications and you will find that the writers draw
all sorts of different implications from the same
political principles. Why is this? Again, because
most of them do not operate from the same
epistemological/ethical context. Contrast this with
concept of modern liberalism, which is more clearly
understood because most of the advocates do operate
from the same epistemological/ethical context.
Rand was correct in stating that "capitalist" is
far superior to "conservative" or "libertarian". This
is primarily due to 3 reasons:
1) The concept of capitalism is more universally
understood. I have found that most people, at least
implicitly, grasp the fact that capitalism means
private ownership and voluntary exchange (although I
had somebody tell me that fascism is a capitalist
state, HELP!!). Even though this primarily defines
one's economics, political and economic principles are
so intimately interwoven that by defining the nature
of one, you define the nature of the other.
Capitalism, understood in the correct context, can
then be easily integrated with the proper function of
the state--to protect individual rights. To give it
other functions, like the redistribution of wealth,
would violate the fundamental tenets of capitalism.
2) Capitalism has taken on a very positive
connotation, unlike libertarianism. I am only in my
twenties, and as a result, have mostly received a
positive reception with regards to my advocacy of
capitalism. The outright vitriolic denunciation of
capitalism seems to have faded before my generation.
Except for the most closed-minded and crude liberals,
I have found that most people silently acknowledge
capitalism's superiority, at least in terms of
practical efficacy. Once they concede the practical
efficacy, it is much easier to make the link to
capitalism's moral superiority. And that, I think, is
the ultimate goal--to win people over by appeal to
ethical/epistemological fundamentals, not political
ones. As many people have stated, the cultural
victory will be won on the fundamental philosophical
battlefield, not the political one.
3) In relation to my previous two points,
"capitalism" is much easier to integrate into a
hierarchical philosophical framework than
"libertarianism". Rand often speaks of the
mystic-altruist-collectivist axis. These concepts go
hand-in-hand, the
epistemological/ethical/politico-economic structure is
well integrated and consistent. The same is true with
regards to the reason/rational
self-interest/capitalist axis. The concepts are also
well integrated and consistent. Now if we replaced
"capitalism" in this philosophical structure with
"libertarianism", the structure is not consistent or
well-integrated. Examining the libertarian canon, one
could not reasonably declare that the writers have a
consistent reason/rational self-interest foundation.
Rand emphasized this hierarchy by stating that she was
a capitalist, but more fundamentally, an
individualist, and even more fundamentally, an
advocate of reason and objective reality. Can one
make this organic link if the concept of "capitalism"
is replaced by "libertarianism"? Examining many of
the movement's main thinkers and writers, it would be
extremely hard to make a positive case.
I don't understand why many Objectivists feel the
need to adopt the term "libertarian". Why fight for a
corrupted concept when when a much better one is
readily available? I say, leave conservatism to the
Conservatives and libertarianism to the Libertarians.
We are all Capitalists now--and that's a good thing.
Flourish,
Michael


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com



Thu Mar 27, 2003 7:44 am

moeller_log
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email

Forward
Message #5650 of 21115 |
Expand Messages Author Sort by Date

From: <n6666b@...> ... and ... on ... I just did, in my response to Peter Smitt, but perhaps with all these postings, it got lost, so here is my response,...
Monica Pignotti
mpignotti2001
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
3:57 pm

Monica, That many people are confused about Objectivism and about libertarianism hardly needs to be argued. That is why, in my own books, I define precisely ...
n6666b@...
nat6branden
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
4:19 pm

... confusion ... One could cut ... Dr. Branden, I don't believe Schwartz was attacking libertarianism with small l, just like he wouldn't attack liberalism....
Free Capitalist
hash113
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
4:55 pm

... To the best of my knowledge, TOC is friendly with small-l libertarian think tanks like Cato, but has never been anything like "buddies" with the LP. Where...
Diana M Hsieh
dmbrickell
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
5:12 pm

Frankly I always thought Cato was, if not exclusively an LP think tank, at least not condemning of the Party. Same with IHS (Institute of Humane Studies). They...
Free Capitalist
hash113
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
5:27 pm

... Cato abhors the LP. I know; I interned there for 6 months while in college. Ed Crane, in fact, founded Cato because he was completely fed up with the LP....
Diana M Hsieh
dmbrickell
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
5:39 pm

I appreciate and agree with the points made by Dr. B. and Diana. I was once intrigued by the fact that Ayn Rand had told writer Joan Kennedy Taylor that her...
Chris Matthew Sciabarra
sciabarra
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
5:59 pm

... drawing ... well ... a ... You said that this was circa 1963-64, before the LP had been established. In her essay of a much later date (the 70s), "What Can...
mpignotti2001
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
7:48 pm

Great Topic. I am going to have to take the side of Rand on this one for many reasons. NB writes: "I've needed to say, "I'm not a Democrat nor a Republican,...
Michael Moeller
moeller_log
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2003
7:44 am

The main problem I have with Mr. Moellor's comments, is that he fails to properly distinguish, the difference between a political PARTY, and a philosophical...
barger9999
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2003
7:52 pm

Libertarian Party is an organization, and at its face value should be embracing the libertarian values, which I classify it as the economic/political branch of...
Jak
jkarako
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2003
9:35 pm

Hi Steve, Thanks for your feedback, although I think you have a significant misunderstanding of the crux of my argument. First of all, I did not state anywhere...
Michael Moeller
moeller_log
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2003
7:21 am

Dear Michael; You'd be surprised at how much we're in agreement on! The areas of disagreement are important to focus on, here, though. Let me explain. You...
barger9999
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2003
7:58 pm

Hi Steve, I will try to be more clear in my formulation. Again as I stated numerous times in my previous emails, I accept libertarianism when taken in the ...
Michael Moeller
moeller_log
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2003
9:33 pm

Steve, I more thing I wanted to say. You write: "If someone holds the POSITION of libertarianism, but is a nihilist, and a subjectivist, they are still a ...
Michael Moeller
moeller_log
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2003
10:15 pm

Diana, thanks for information. Why is it that none of the classical liberal/libertarian think tanks officially disassociate themselves with LP? Or maybe I...
Free Capitalist
hash113
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2003
5:23 am

Hash, though I can't (and wouldn't dare presume) to speak for the classical liberal think tanks, I would suspect that they don't "disassociate themselves" from...
William Bacon
guyintherear
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2003
11:33 am

... What's the mistake here, and what's wrong with a "foggy conglomeration"? All the groups you mention do more good than harm, and share a fundamental respect...
Mike Lee
michaellee98034
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
6:36 pm

... In fact, Peter Schwartz was indeed attacking LibertarianISM, not just the L.P. His essay was titled "LibertarianISM: The Perversion of Liberty". He makes...
barger9999
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
5:53 pm

Nathaniel, I appreciate your response. Because the origin of the term is unclear, I'm still not comfortable calling myself a "libertarian", even with a small...
Monica Pignotti
mpignotti2001
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
5:38 pm

... Hi Monica, Shouldn't the common understanding of the term today matter more than its origin? (Most people, after all, have no idea of its origin. And...
Diana M Hsieh
dmbrickell
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
5:49 pm

... My experience differs greatly, especially when discussing the subject with people who have more than minimal knowledge of politics. When people say that...
Mike Lee
michaellee98034
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
6:36 pm

I confess I took for granted that everyone on this list knew that "Libertarianism" and "libertarianism" are two totally different animals. NB [Non-text...
n6666b@...
nat6branden
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
8:54 pm

Well said, Chris. nb [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]...
n6666b@...
nat6branden
Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2003
9:03 pm

"Chris"?...
martingoodfellow8
martingoodfe...
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2003
12:39 am

Michael Moeller <moeller_log@...> wrote: [I've snipped many very excellent points he very eloquently made, to get to this one very important conclusion...
Monica Pignotti
mpignotti2001
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2003
5:02 pm

It might help people understand the difference between oppsing the Libertarian PARTY, vs. opposing (small 'l') libertarianISM, to think of it this way: I can...
barger9999
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2003
7:25 pm

... Since the question was asked, I'd like to affirm this postion, as well. I've been a Libertarian since 1977, and believe it's worth defending. I even ran ...
SnowDog
cchaynie
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2003
9:47 pm
Advanced

Copyright © 2009 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy - Terms of Service - Guidelines - Help