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"Addiction is a Choice"   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #2620 of 21115 |
Re: [nathaniel_branden] Re: "Addiction is a Choice"

Quoting Liz <elizangel69@...>:

> Let's say (because it's true) that I am a shopaholic. When I feel
> down about my life, I try to fill that emptiness with a new blouse or
> a pair of cute little boots. Before you go saying, "What a load of
> crappola, what kind of an addiction is that?", keep in mind that the
> addiction is not the use of the shopping.

It's not a load of crapola. I'm on the same page with you, here. Addiction
(of any kind) is not about the substance or behavior. People sometimes look at
me strange, but sometimes I'll invite a non-addicted (but otherwise struggling)
person to an NA meeting and tell them that "NA is not about drugs". And it
isn't.

> It is the impulse to
> perform the shopping in order to make me feel normal. That impulse is
> a part of me. Sure, I can choose whether I obey or disobey the
> impulse, but I cannot say that I am free of the addiction until the
> impulse no longer arises in response to the emptiness. I do not
> choose to need to shop; I only choose to shop.
>
> Until I accept this impulse as part of me (my automated response
> system) and understand it in the context of my feeling empty, I
> cannot be free of the impulse. My task is to examine the emptiness,
> decide whether the empty feeling is rational, and then begin to
> rebuild my perspective of my life from a rational point of view
> rather than through my previously irrational perspective.
>
> If I tackle my addiction from the other directions proposed here, I
> could say to myself, I know that I am a shopaholic. My addiction
> wants me to shop in order to fill the emptiness in my life. I am
> going to resist my urge to shop and I am going to fill this emptiness
> in a healthier way.

I'm a little confused here, though. It sounds like you are seeing two
different "directions" but I don't really see what difference you are trying to
illustrate. If anything, I think what you described as your first "direction"
sounds closer to the 12-step approach than the other "direction" that you seem
to think is the 12-step approach. Step one is about acceptance and surrender,
not resistance. What you describe as examining the emptiness and rebuilding
perspectives is what steps 4-12 are about.

People who come to NA hoping to hear how they can quit using drugs will be
slightly dissapointed. Stopping using is not the ultimate goal of NA: it is
the very beginning of recovery. First stop using, THEN we can get on with your
recovery and spiritual growth. (see recovery sound-byte #56: "First Things
First")

Lance





Sun Dec 1, 2002 6:38 pm

lvn6
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Message #2620 of 21115 |
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Yes, there is a contractor in my office who is trained in neurofeedback and he swears it is wonderful for many therapeutic processes. ... of ... EEG ... than...
Liz
elizangel69
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Dec 2, 2002
3:05 am

... It's not a load of crapola. I'm on the same page with you, here. Addiction (of any kind) is not about the substance or behavior. People sometimes look...
Lance Neustaeter
lvn6
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Dec 1, 2002
6:38 pm

The AA meetings I have attended have been highly dissociative in nature - dissociating the addiction from the person. I don't see it as a dissociative process;...
Liz
elizangel69
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Dec 2, 2002
3:08 am

Hi Lance, I've never been in a 12-step program, but the 2 options Monica presented seem pretty clear to me: The first option is to try to understand this...
madmaxmedia
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Dec 2, 2002
6:01 pm

... This would explain why I had trouble seeing the two scenarios as being that much different: Both can (and should) be addressed using the 12-step...
Lance
lvn6
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Dec 2, 2002
7:18 pm

The two scenarios can be accomplished side by side, but I don't believe it is healthy to do so. The feeling/obsession which is driving the behavior/compulsion...
Liz
elizangel69
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Dec 3, 2002
2:52 am

... I agree. My point is that you can't always take what a person who claims to be a member of any kind of group says as a perfect representative of that...
Lance
lvn6
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Dec 2, 2002
7:33 pm

Not divorcing. But (realizing this has been touched on some before), taking the first step of saying you are powerless over your addiction, and surrendering to...
rdeontheair
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Dec 2, 2002
8:02 pm

A group is the sum of its members. It doesn't matter what AA literature says...it matters how it is enacted. ... it ... process. ... claims to be a member of...
Liz
elizangel69
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Dec 3, 2002
2:56 am

... This is where charitible reading comes in. It is no more advocating denying the self than Branden's principle of Acceptance (Accepting that I can't change...
Lance
lvn6
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Dec 2, 2002
8:28 pm

Thanks! ... before), ... advocating denying the self than Branden's principle of Acceptance (Accepting that I can't change facts about myself with a mere wish)...
rdeontheair
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Dec 2, 2002
8:31 pm

Liz and others-- As a "successful" 16 year recovering addict, I agree. Abstinence does not equal sobriety. Given the disease model of AA (which I hope no one...
Kendall A Elsom, Jr.
kelsomjr
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Dec 3, 2002
4:43 am

... Indeed, there are a great many excellent reasons to doubt the disease model of addction, the most compelling of which is that it is inconsistent with the...
Diana M Hsieh
dmbrickell
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Dec 3, 2002
5:43 pm

Lance-- I don't know what AA meetings you've gone to, but your statement is, frankly, absurd. If a "dissociative process" is what you saw, it's your blindness...
Kendall A Elsom, Jr.
kelsomjr
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Dec 3, 2002
4:51 am

... I agree. Lance (http://www3.telus.net/neustater) -- I want to die peacefully, in my sleep, like my grandfather. Not screaming, terrified, like his...
Lance
lvn6
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Dec 3, 2002
9:04 pm

... You got the wrong person in your quoting. I tend to agree with you. ... Quite true. Lucky shot. :-) Lance (http://www3.telus.net/neustater) -- ...
Lance
lvn6
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Dec 3, 2002
9:09 pm

... I almost replied in kind, but it's another one of those situations where I have to ask, "What do [both of] you mean by 'disease model'?" I've seen the...
Lance
lvn6
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Dec 3, 2002
9:17 pm

Lance-- The "Disease" model is not complex. It simply says alcoholism is one. Hence, you've got it, and it is no more your "fault" than if you had diabetes. ...
Kendall A Elsom, Jr.
kelsomjr
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Dec 3, 2002
10:24 pm

... one. Hence, you've got it, and it is no more your "fault" than if you had diabetes. ...that's pretty interesting. If the AA disease model holds that to ...
alyas17
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Dec 3, 2002
10:38 pm

I would tend to disagree with that allie Just knowing you have a disease doesn't mean you wouldn't take your meds or do whatever else the doctor tells you to...
Bryan Greifinger
bryang227
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Dec 3, 2002
10:51 pm

... Well, since diabetes (and virtually all other so-called degenerative 'diseases') is (are) a direct result of poor dietary and lifestyle choices in 99% of...
Charles Marcus
bernardo_del...
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Dec 4, 2002
1:06 pm

There's a good article about that in Esquire, I think it's not in the current one, but either in the previous issue or the one before. Diabetes is on the...
rdeontheair
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Dec 4, 2002
1:27 pm

Yeah...I was awaiting that one. Diabetes and many other diseases can, of course, be brought on by a bad diet and various other lifestyle factors. (NO, not in...
alyas17
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Dec 4, 2002
3:02 pm

... Sure is. ... I would, do and am. ... Many do - that is why so many end up losing their eyesight, or lose fingers or toes and die. I had a girlfriend who...
Charles Marcus
bernardo_del...
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Dec 4, 2002
3:26 pm

Charles, I'm not sure where you're getting your information (are you basing this strictly on your experience with your girlfriend?). There is no way that 99%...
alyas17
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Dec 4, 2002
3:47 pm

... Of course not. The information is out there for those willing to look for it. Of course, I can not poin t you to any government approved information that...
Charles Marcus
bernardo_del...
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Dec 4, 2002
4:38 pm

Charles, Nobody's holding a gun to anyone's head and telling them what to eat/drink and buy. Many people who are very health-conscious get sick anyway, even...
alyas17
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Dec 4, 2002
4:56 pm

I would like to interject a few thoughts into this ongoing discussion. I hope you don't mind. Based on my experience, an addiction is not just an addiction to...
gnouperdu
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Dec 4, 2002
5:02 pm

... Oftentimes, it isn't what you know that hurts you - it's what you know that just ain't so (aka 'bad information'). This, I will give you - there are a lot...
Charles Marcus
bernardo_del...
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Dec 5, 2002
2:46 pm

... ...This is beginning to really get away from any psychology issues, but your explanation here is quite interesting. What source did you use for the above...
alyas17
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Dec 5, 2002
3:27 pm
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