Hi Joshua

Thanks for your reply.

First up, Im not out to pooh pooh BCG ...actually Ive contributed
money to the cause and in doing so urge everyone and anyone who has a
heart to do so as well.

We need this trial to get the funding !
No We have to make sure we get the funding guys !!!!!


One comment to make other than that on this page below...look for

Genetics of BCG Induced Lupus in NOD Mice
http://www.jcu.edu.au/cgc/AutoimmunityResRep.html

I know you already said its not an issue with the other study that
found this, however I feel I should point these things out.
NOD mice are similar to sick autoimmune suffering people..as we have
immune systems genetically bred to go wrong as well.

I have confidence in Denise as Im sure she would already know about
these cases and about the BCG induced SLE in NOD mice.

Its my reckoning she thinks she has a dose or way of dosing as to
make this a non issue..in fact I really hope she really has.

I say it again we must all support this program..it is a first for so
many reasons..not least being the only direction in therapy that is
trying to rid the body of these destructive cells specifically
instead of destroying most of the immune system.

In fact Im going to put my hand in my pocket again for this cause and
yet again for Phase II

And as we all know most therapies do have some kind of side effect in
a small number.

When I was a teen everyone got the BCG no one got sick AFAIK..however
Im really sick now some 35 years later..its a long time to say there
is any connection..and if BCG can fix it ...and there are always
risks to new treatments..Im willing to take another shot...Id be the
first in the queue !

Go Denise !





--- In nathanfaustmantrials@yahoogroups.com, Joshua Levy
<joshua2levy@...> wrote:
>
>
> I don't have enough time to write a full reply, but here are some
quick comments.
> My words in are blue, croma_clear1's words are in black.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: croma_clear1 <jlcandrb@...>
> To: nathanfaustmantrials@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 2:53:57 AM
> Subject: [nathanfaustmantrials] BCG Safety Record
>
>
> Ive just read documentation that lists BCG as the cause of
> Autoimmunity, Hepatitis
> several cases in fact, they include Lupus, Reiters
>
> Reiters
> http://linkinghub. elsevier. com/retrieve/ pii/S08968411009 04943
> Reports on 1 case
> of Reiters after BCG treatment. No data at all suggests that
Reiters is
> more common after BCG treatment that without BCG treatment. For a
drug
> like BCG, which has been given to 100s of millions of people, you
would
> expect some people to get Reiters after it, just because you are
giving
> it to so many people.
>
> Lupus
> http://www.annals. edu.sg/pdfSep02/ TanHH.pdf
> Reports on between 1 and 4 cases of Lupus after BCG treatment. No
data at all suggests that Lupus is more common after BCG treatment
that without BCG treatment. For a drug like BCG, which has been
given to 100s of millions of people, you would expect some people to
get Lupus after it, just because you are giving it to so many people.
>
> Hepatitis
> http://www3. interscience. wiley.com/ journal/11267939 5/abstract?
> CRETRY=1&SRETRY= 0
> Reports on a single hepatitis case which occured 1 1/2 years
after BCG treatment, in someone who already had bladder cancer. No
data at all suggests that hepatitis is
> more common after BCG treatment that without BCG treatment. For a
drug
> like BCG, which has been given to 100s of millions of people, you
would
> expect some people to get hepatitis after it, just because you are
giving
> it to so many people.
>
> And this link shows a whole heap of adverse reactions
> http://www.whale. to/vaccines/ bcg.html
> This is a site full of quack vaccine-hater stuff. If you see any
specific study there you want comments on, give me a more specific
link. In the past when I have looked at this site, it has been a mix
pseudo-scientific crap, made up data, fearmongering, and bad
statistics.
>
> Also read that NOD mice given BCG prevented diabetes but end up
with SLE
> http://www.pubmedce ntral.nih. gov/articlerende r.fcgi?artid=
1414944
> This is an interesting study. However, I think it is a mistake to
think that the BCG cause the SLE in these cases. These were NOD
mice, which are genetically bred to have immunology problems! It may
just be that the BCG kept them healthy long enough to get SLE, when
not giving the BCG caused them to die of type-1 diabetes before they
could get SLE. If I have time, I'll read this study and give a more
complete answer.
>
> More
> http://www.jcu. edu.au/cgc/ AutoimmunityResR ep.html
> I don't see that this web page has anything to do with BCG causing
diseases. It is all about genetic markers.
>
> I guess my point is..is BCG really safe?...I guess thats why there
IS a
> Phase 1 afterall.
> BCG is safe when used as a vaccine, and we know this because people
have done large scale studies that compared vaccinated to
unvaccinated people, to see relative health problems, and found the
BCG vaccinated people had no extra problems (and less TB). This sort
of comparison study is how safety is measured, and none of the
studies you listed above is this kind of comparison.
> Let me ask you a counter-question: is driving a car "really safe"?
Far more poeple die while driving than die from a BCG vaccination.
The difference is 100,000 to 1 or more (maybe even 10 million to 1).
Do you drive?
>
> In terms of safety testing, remember that Faustman's trial only
follows the patients for a year or two (someone can fill in the
details). So it will catch bad side effects that happen quickly
(especially at the time of dosing), but not those that take years to
show up (if there are any).
>
> Joshua Levy
> __
>