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http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/bbing/stories/s1158704.htm
Sundays at 9.10am, repeated Tuesdays at 7.10pm
Psychopaths in Suits
Sunday 18 July 2004
Produced by Ian Walker
Print
Program Transcript
Mock film trailer
Enron Trader 1: Burn, baby burn, that's a beautiful thing.
Announcer: They ooze charm and charisma, with more sizzle than a
steak...
Enron CEO, Ken Lay: I've never seen the company stronger, I've never
seen a better position.
Announcer: They'll do whatever it takes...
Enron Trader 2: Oh, just tell `em a bunch of lies. Weave a bunch of
lies and that's what we did.
Announcer: And take whatever is offered...
Enron Trader 3: Can we rephrase that?
Enron trader 4: OK, he "arbitrages" the California market to the
tune of a million bucks or two a day.
Announcer: They thrive on risk, chaos and upheaval...
Enron trader 5: Well why don't you just go ahead and shut it down if
that's OK.
Enron trader 6: Enron, oh, holy shit, that thing got smoked.
Announcer: And when things go wrong, they won't be the ones
apologising…
Ken Lay: Obviously I wish what happened hadn't happened, but we
can't re-do history now.
Announcer: Corporate psychos, coming soon to a workplace near you.
Enron trader 6: Oh God, I can't handle it anymore.
Announcer: Corporate psychos.
Ian Walker: Psychopaths…we usually only know them from Hollywood
movies, as serial killers, rapists or sadists. If they made a movie
about the unravelling saga of the Enron collapse, no-one would get
killed…but the main characters would still be as chilling and
ruthless as any baddie from a B-grade horror flick.
Psychopaths people our nightmares and literature, but we never
expect them to enter our real life.
But the psychopath is closer than you think.
Most of them function incognito in high-powered professions like the
law, politics, entertainment, the church, the military, trade
unions, the media and the arts.
All the way to the very top.
Professor Robert Hare: They look and dress the same way as most
businessmen, they may even use the same language. Some of these
people are fairly persuasive, they can manipulate, they're very
charming, some of them even charismatic. And a lot of people, they
like them, they think they're kind of fun to be around, but it takes
a long time before you can figure out that something is really amiss
here.
Ian Walker: This week, we find out what happens when the psychopath
goes to work… with hair-rising stories of toxic bosses, irrational
CEOs, backstabbling co-workers, serial bullies and malignant
narcissists. No-one gets killed, but there's plenty of blood on the
carpet.
And we ask the question: is economic pressure on modern-day
workplaces and corporate culture itself helping to create a world
where psychopathic behaviour is flourishing and even being rewarded?
Plus, stay tuned for a few tips from the experts in how to spot
a "psychopath in a suit".
Dr Paul Babiak: Insincere, arrogant, untrustworthy, manipulative,
insensitive to the thoughts and feelings of others, remorseless,
shallow, meaning the person seems not to have feelings, is incapable
of experiencing or understanding the feelings of others. "Insincere,
arrogant, untrustworthy, manipulative, insensitive to the thoughts
and feelings of others…" Tends to blame others for things that go
wrong, has low frustration tolerance and is therefore impatient with
things. Erratic, unreliable, unfocused, and is selfish, parasitic,
they take advantage of the goodwill of people they work with as
well as the company itself.
Ian Walker: Hi, I'm Ian Walker and welcome to Background Briefing.
If this sounds like someone you know, grab and pen and try this
quick quiz. Answer Yes or No to the following ten questions:
Does your boss or workmate come across as smooth, polished and
charming?
Do they turn most conversations around to a discussion about them?
Do they discredit or put others down in order to build up their own
image and reputation?
Can they lie with a straight face to their co-workers, customers, or
business associates?
Do they consider people they've outsmarted or manipulated as dumb or
stupid?
Are they opportunistic, ruthless, hating to lose and playing to win?
Do they come across as cold and calculating?
Do they sometimes act in an unethical or dishonest manner?
Have they created a power network in the organisation, then used it
for personal gain?
Do they show no regret for making decisions that negatively affect
the company, shareholders, or employees?
Ian Walker: If you scored at least six out of ten, there's a good
chance you've already met what's known as an industrial
or `corporate psychopath'.
For most of us, the word itself seems loaded, and a bit shocking to
use for someone who might be in the next cubicle at work. But,
psychopath, we're assured, is the correct term for these people.
Some corporate psychopaths will eventually progress to white-collar
crime. Most of them, though, will never get caught or convicted.
But, make no mistake, they're every bit as egocentric, callous and
manipulative as your average criminal variety.
Psychopaths treat people, including their families, like objects,
and they can do immense amounts of damage to those who cross them,
or frustrate their goals.
They can cost companies millions.
Paul Babiak is a corporate psychopath's worst nightmare: he knows
how they think. Babiak's an industrial/organisational psychologist
from upstate New York and a regular consultant to many A-list
corporations trying to remedy dysfunctional behaviour in the
workplace. More than anyone, he's helped invent the term `corporate
psychopath', and has done most of the work in studying how they
operate.
It all started, though, by accident, as part of a consultancy job 12
years ago, and a case that had him baffled.
Dr Babiak had been brought in to help a major corporation in
Colorado. His job was to assess a management team that was
underperforming. A new recruit had joined its ranks. Morale was low,
conflict high.
Initially, Babiak was charmed by the fast-talking guy at the centre
of the problem. But as his investigation progressed, it turned out
he'd uncovered a genuine `snake in a suit'.
Paul Babiak: He came across very sincere, and modest, and I only
came to realise there was something going on when I got the results
of the assessments that were being done, and I found quite a
discrepancy. A number of people really, really liked him, and that
included some of the higher level people I must say. And a number of
people really despised him, really thought he was evil. One person
referred to him as a "snake". It was only later really, after the
assignment ended and I consulted with Bob Hare, that I saw the
light. Bob had sent me the PCL-R, or the Psychopathy Checklist,
which he had developed while studying psychopaths in prison samples.
He came out high on the conning and manipulation side of the PCL-R
equation and middle-of-the-road on the anti-social behaviour side.
Thus he was able to hide his manipulations from view of those around
him, yet he exerted undue influence, negative influence on the group.
Ian Walker: Babiak dubbed the troublesome manager `Dave', and his
story would literally become a textbook case. But more on `Dave' in
a moment.
ABC `AM' Theme
US Justice Department Spokesperson: Today we announce the most
significant charges to date in the historic investigation into the
collapse of Enron.
ABC Reporter: All three senior executives of Enron have now been
charged with the collapse that cost investors billions of dollars,
caused the loss of thousands of jobs and left hundreds of employees
without their superannuation.
Ken Lay: …a tragic day for me and my family. As CEO of the company I
accept responsibility for Enron's collapse, however that does not
mean I knew everything that happened at Enron.
Ian Walker: The story of bosses behaving badly is an old one that's
usually whispered between friends or colleagues. It only grabs the
headlines when the bosses at the very top, like Enron's `Kennyboy'
Lay, come asunder in spectacular fashion. But it's not a story
you'll hear much of at business school or in the popular management
or leadership literature of the day.
As anyone who's been one knows, the daily reality of being a boss is
hard work, thankless even, and it takes a certain type of person to
be good at it.
According to Amanda Sinclair, Professor of Management at the
Melbourne Business School, we live in a time when bosses are under
pressure from all sides. Not surprisingly, many of them are finding
it hard to live up to often unrealistic expectations.
Amanda Sinclair: What we're in at the moment is a very high pressure
environment, when a lot of the traditional sort of structures that
contained us and protected us, are being stripped away. So, a lot of
us are involved in virtual interactions and high-speed interactions
and a situation that one theorist has described as "overburdening",
which means giving people more tasks than they can possibly do, but
under the mistaken belief that putting them under that sort of
pressure is going to bring out the best in them. Bosses are
routinely asking us to deliver far more than we can possibly do. So
what that means is that we then see leaders as being overly-
demanding, overly-pressured, controlling, unable to let go, unable
to delegate, unable to see the bigger picture, and so on. Because,
of course, they're in a system too. I mean they're reacting to
pressures higher up from themselves.
"The Office" - BBC
David Brent (Boss): As you are aware, there are going to be
redundancies, and you've made my life easier inasmuch as I'm asking
that you go first.
Dawn (the receptionist): What? Why?
David Brent: Why? Stealing. Thieving.
Dawn: Thieving?
David Brent: Yes.
Dawn: What am I meant to have stolen?
David Brent: Post-It notes.
Female Employee: Post-it notes. What are they worth, about 12p?
David Brent: Oh, Got your Bible on you, Ricky? `Thou shalt not
steal', and it's only worth 12p. You steal a thousand Post-it notes
at 12p, you've made….a profit.
Dawn: Why would I steal Post-it notes?
David Brent: You know, to make the little things on the ends of
joints. Roaches.
Dawn: I see. I can't, I can't, I've never actually stolen as much as
a paper clip, and you're firing me.
David Brent: And the good news is, I don't have to give you any
severance pay because it's gross misconduct. So you can go straight
away.
Dawn: (sobs)
David Brent: Oh ... that was a joke there.
Amanda Sinclair: I think it's often a fairly fine line between a
level of reasonably normal neuroses that we all are afflicted by at
various times and under certain sorts of conditions, and that
normally neurotic behaviour, if you like, slipping over into
something more extreme, like a psychotic behaviour. And I think that
there is evidence for that. You do hear stories about those, you do
hear narratives about those, about people just really becoming quite
abnormally punishing and sadistic, and humiliating and in the
interests of corporate objectives. And that's a situation where the
business environment really does provide, if you like, a stage for
those sorts of behaviours to be acted out under the pressures of
post-modern capitalism, if you like.
Ian Walker: Amanda Sinclair, Professor of Management at Melbourne
Business School.
As old-fashioned business institutions are forced to move with the
times by changing their structure, improving efficiency, updating
technology and overhauling their systems, the climate becomes
perfect for dysfunctional behaviour to flourish.
The now-infamous Enron Tapes provide a good example…those truly
shocking recordings of phone conversations between the ruthless
electricity futures traders from the company. Their skulduggery
helped black out the power grid in California, and cost the State
billions of dollars.
Phone ringing
Bob Badeer: Nothing, fuckin'...
Receptionist: Kevin McGowan's office?
Bob Badeer: Yes, is Kevin there?
Receptionist: Yes, may I say who's calling?
Bob Badeer: Yes, Bob Badeer.
Receptionist: One moment.
Bob Badeer: Thanks.
Kevin McGowan: Robert. So the rumour's true, they're fuckin' taking
all the money back from you guys? All those money you guys stole
from those poor grandmothers of California?
Bob Badeer: Yeah, Grandma Millie, man. But she's the one who
couldn't figure out how to fuckin' vote on the butterfly ballot. Now
she wants her fuckin' money back for the power you've charged right
up, jammed right up her arse for fuckin' $250 a megawatt hour.
(Laughter)
Kevin McGowan: With these power prices and this fuckin' ah gas
prices, they can't do it. They can't – this is like a recession
waiting to fuckin' happen. We're like the new Carissa. So we all –
new Carissa! So we all just drink the fuckin' Koolade and stick a
fork in us. We're the Roman Empire…
Bob Badeer: We are going' down, man.
Ian Walker: One type of person who thrives on this kind of frontier
capitalism is the `corporate psychopath'. And there's no shortage of
opportunities for the ones who think big. According to
organisational psychologist, Paul Babiak the fast-moving never-look-
backwards uber-corporations like Enron seem to create executives in
their own image.
Paul Babiak: They tend to like people who are high energy, and also
fast-moving, and psychopaths can look that way. They're very
impulsive people, they thrive on stimulation, they have low
frustration tolerance. They can do many things at once, they may not
finish any of them, but things are moving so fast sometimes you
don't notice, and so they look like an ideal employee. So, you have
two things going on: on the one hand, they are more likely to join
an organisation because it's more attractive, at least these kinds
of organisations. And, secondly, it's easier for them to hide
because the kinds of things they say and do seem to be what the
organisations want: someone who has charm and charisma, someone who
can command respect, who is larger than life, and the psychopath is
very prone to fill those shoes. They really do have charm and
charisma. And we can sometimes mistake that for leadership,
especially if we believe their stories…and they are great
storytellers. They can tell a good story and they can be very
entertaining and they can weave a lot of facts which really are
disjointed, but they can bring it together into a powerful story,
almost looking to us like a vision.
Ian Walker: And the vision thing is everywhere you look.
Management book titles
Inspire: What Great Leaders Do
Self-Reliance, The Wisdom Of Ralph Waldo Emerson As Inspiration For
Daily Living
The Art Of Possibility, Transforming Professional And Personal Life
When Giants Learn To Dance
99% Inspiration, Tips, Tales And Techniques For Liberating Your
Business Creativity.
First, Break All The Rules: What The World's Greatest Managers Do
Differently.
Attitude 101: What Every Leader Needs To Know.
Nice Girls Don't Get The Corner Office
Jack Welsh and the GE-Way: Management Insights And Leadership
Secrets Of The Legendary CEO
Jesus CEO: Using Ancient Wisdom For Visionary Leadership.
Ian Walker: If the titles on the shelves of the business leadership
section of your favourite bookshop are anything to go by, the rise
of the CEO as guru shows no sign of abating any time soon.
Management Professor Amanda Sinclair believes the reason may be
spiritual.
Amanda Sinclair: I think that a certain sort of vacuum in our
secular society has created an opportunity for business leaders to
be suddenly cast as the great heroes and the great saviours, and the
people who will offer us transformative visions. "A certain sort of
vacuum in our secular society has created an opportunity for
business leaders to be suddenly cast as the great heroes… " The
search for meaning is nothing new. What is more new and more
interesting is the way in which we are increasingly looking to
leaders in the business community to be above the rest of us, to be
offerers of great visions, and charismatic ideals.
Ian Walker: The visionary and inspirational boss though is something
that's pretty scarce when you actually go and ask people to name a
few?
Amanda Sinclair: Indeed it is, but it doesn't mean that there isn't
a vast, vast literature on how to be one. And therein lies the
paradox I think, this hunger that we so rarely see actually
satisfied. I think it's really our own sort of appetite for a
particular good story about leadership that's meant that we're often
reluctant to look at the darkside and a bit shocked when it surfaces
its head. So that we tend to dismiss bad behaviour as sort of
aberrant, when in fact it's part of the stuff of leadership really.
"Wall Street" - Oliver Stone 1986
Bud Fox: Tell me, Gordon, when does it all end, huh? How many yachts
can you water-ski behind, how much is enough?
Gordon Gecko: It's not a question of enough, Pal. It's a zero-sum
game. Somebody wins, somebody loses. Money itself isn't lost or
made, it's simply transferred from one perception to another. Like
magic. We make the rules, Pal…the news, war, peace, famine,
upheaval, the price of paper clips. We pick that rabbit out of the
hat and everybody sits out there wondering how the hell we did it.
Amanda Sinclair: I mean the leadership persona is, by definition, a
fairly mercurial one …it's one where there's enormous highs and
enormous lows, that's part of the make-up. These people have views,
they have expectations and a confidence in their own view that it
deserves to serve as the view or the vision for others. So, you need
somebody who's pretty driven and unusually ambitious, has an
unusually inflated view of their own importance, in order to sustain
that. And, that's the very thing we want from them. But, it's also
the very thing that should send up our antennae, and that includes
things like pride, envy, rivalry…intense rivalry. And gosh, haven't
we seen that in the corporate scene! And yet it doesn't actually get
diagnosed as that. It gets discussed as something different. But, of
course, all these people have many sides. And if we actually had a
much more well-rounded understanding of the fragilities that often
lead people to seek leadership in the first place, then we would be
better placed to make more discerning judgements when those same
leaders that we've treated as saviours, just demonstrate the other
side of their personalities.
Ian Walker: Professor Amanda Sinclair, of the Melbourne Business
School.
But what happens when the aberrant behaviour of our leaders becomes
malignant, maybe criminal, perhaps even psychopathic? What are the
signs? And how would we know what to do?
Easily the best person to ask is Canada's Robert Hare. He's the
world's pre-eminent expert on psychopathy and a regular advisor to
the FBI. In the `70s, Hare developed what's known as the Psychopathy
Checklist, or PCL, which is used as the international standard by
police and mental health professionals to determine who qualifies as
a psychopath. He's spent much of his working life inside prisons,
studying hardcore criminal psychopaths, mostly murderers and serial
rapists.
More recently though, he's shifted his focus to the workplace and
has now teamed up with Paul Babiak to help corporations identify the
psychopath at work.
Robert Hare: We estimate, on the basis of some reasonably decent
data, that about 1% of the general population will meet our criteria
for psychopathy. And in the business world, the prevalence debatably
could be somewhat higher, dependent upon the organisation. The
problem for the organisation is that only one or two of these people
can do enormous damage, particularly if they get very high up in the
organisation.
Ian Walker: You said it depends on the corporation, so tell me what
difference the corporate culture makes to fostering psychopathic
behaviour?
Robert Hare: Well I suppose some people would argue that the very
nature of the corporate culture almost compels psychopathic
behaviour. There was this documentary that was just completed about
seven or eight months ago, a Canadian one called The Corporation,
and the premise of the whole thing is that corporations are, by
their nature, psychopathic. Could they be impulsive? "Yes." And
could it lack empathy? And I'd explain: "Well, yes, under certain
circumstances. If you look at the corporation as an entity, as a
person." And that was taken as evidence that the corporation is, by
definition, psychopathic. And I would argue that corporations of
that sort are prime targets for a psychopath, because he or she will
function very well in a corporate culture that is designed to
manipulate, con, lie, steal and cheat. But most corporations aren't
like that.
Ian Walker: Robert Hare, Emeritus Professor of Psychology at the
University of British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada, and author of
the best-selling book `Without Conscience'.
Paul Babiak has never been inside a prison, but he's been asked to
help out at many dysfunctional corporations.
Until twelve years ago, the idea that psychopathy could be at the
heart of some of his client company's problems had never crossed his
mind. It all changed when he came across the puzzling case of `Dave'.
For clues, Dr Babiak sought out Bob Hare and his Psychopathy
Checklist. Dave was a high scorer.
Since that time, Babiak believes he's positively identified up to
eight workplace psychopaths amongst his regular clients.
Now, the pair are writing a book, to be published later this year,
called `Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go To Work'. They hope to
answers some basic questions, like:
What do you look for if you think you share your workplace with a
psychopath? And what makes them tick?
According to Paul Babiak, there are three main archetypes.
Paul Babiak: One we've labelled The Con, and that's the individual
who deals one-on-one with individuals, primarily tries to exert
influence over them, and then swindles them out of something. It's a
very simple process, and they may not make it into the high levels
of the corporate structure, but they can do some serious damage.
The second kind of psychopath, is The Bully. And that's a person
that influences others by intimidation. It could be overt, verbal
threats, maybe even physical violence, but it can also be very
covert intimidation.
Ian Walker: But by far the most dangerous of all the psychopaths in
the workplace is a prize manipulator Babiak calls `The Puppetmaster'.
Paul Babiak: That's an individual who is very savvy, is quite a
student of human behaviour, is quite capable of manipulating
individuals into hurting other people. So it's a two-step process.
The Puppetmaster manipulates individuals and these people whom they
are manipulating do the dirty work for them. Therefore commit the
crimes; it might be embezzlement, it could be some other form of
fraud. They reap the benefit, but their minions do the work.
Ian Walker: Generally what are the motivations behind the
psychopathic behaviour? What drives them?
Paul Babiak: I think psychopaths are primarily driven by a thrill
seeking drive. They're very impulsive, and they have a perhaps
physiological drive for stimulation.
The second thing that operates in them is a need, a drive if you
will, to play games, to play the game, to play with people as if
they're pawns…they're gameplayers. And they like to win, of course.
And, the third aspect of their personality which I think is a
driver, is that they are immune to the damage they do. At some level
they might even enjoy the damage that they do.
Ian Walker: Why this is is still a mystery. One clue may be in a
very small part of the brain known as the amygdala, crucial for
processing emotions.
Bob Hare says there's been some promising recent research done in
Germany, Scandinavia and by his own team in Vancouver, using
Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging, or FMRI.
The results all show up the same kind of blind spot in a
psychopath's thinking.
Bob Hare: There are anomalies in the way the brain functions while
it's processing certain types of information. For example, we wanted
to see to what extent psychopaths were able to understand the
emotional components of language, so they'd be presented with words
that were either neutral or emotional. We tried to see which parts
of the brain are activated while they process each type of word. And
for normal people, non-psychopathic individuals, there are parts of
the brain that are highly active, limbic regions, the emotional
brain, part that adds emotional content to our cognitions, that part
of the brain is always activated considerably. "If you're looking at
very, very violent pictures, most people would respond with a
distinct emotional response...For the psychopaths, that doesn't seem
to happen… " But for psychopaths it seems not to be activated in the
same direction, the same way. So, we would argue that, for the
psychopath, an emotional event, a word or even a picture, is treated
as if it's something relatively neutral. If you're looking at say,
very, very violent pictures, mutilated faces for example, most
people would respond with a distinct emotional response, and you
could detect that in the cerebral blood-flow, parts of the brain
that are activated. For the psychopaths, that doesn't seem to
happen. It's as if they're looking at this rather horrific image and
saying `Interesting, cool'.
Ian Walker: While he wasn't face-to-face with a knife-wielding
murderer Paul Babiack still clearly remembers his earliest encounter
with the psychopath he called `Dave'. It took him more than two
years, but by piecing together parts of the story from many
different people, Babiak was able to shine some light on exactly how
corporate psychopaths get away with it for so long.
Dave had woven a complex web of manipulation by grooming what Babiak
calls the `Pawns' and the `Patrons'.
Paul Babiak: When I sorted through the data I found that the
supporters and the detractors could actually be broken down into
four groups, based upon the amount of first-hand experience they had
with Dave, and the amount of help they could be to his career. One
group, I called them The Patrons, was made up of the President, the
Vice-President and some Directors of the firm, effectively the
higher levels of the organisation. Now, this group of individuals
had considerable formal power in the company but they actually knew
very little about Dave. What limited interactions they had with Dave
were positive but, I learned later, each had been carefully staged
by Dave to get the effect he wanted. As a result, these executives
protected and defended him from subsequent criticism.
Ian Walker: Dave's Patrons in upper management had him marked out as
a potential future leader of the company. Meanwhile though, Dave was
busy making friends with people lower down the corporate food-chain.
They had no power but they helped him cover up his inadequacies.
They were the Pawns, but he made them feel special.
Paul Babiak: One in particular, I called her The Soulmate, seemed to
glow every time Dave spoke to her. As it turned out, she, being an
expert in the technical area that Dave claimed as his background and
I later discovered he didn't have, she did all of his work for him,
and actually covered for him when he couldn't complete his
assignments. So, in total, this group, despite having little formal
power, actually had considerable informal power and utility to Dave,
and he played them very well.
Ian Walker: The true story of `Dave'. To be continued.
Dave's story sounds familiar to Sam Vaknin, author of "Malignant
Self Love - Narcissism Revisited", perhaps even a little too close
to home. Vaknin's a respected expert on malignant narcissists, but
getting there was an incredible journey. He himself was diagnosed
with Narcissistic Personality Disorder whilst in jail in Israel
after a conviction on fraud-related charges. He'd been an award-
winning writer and a successful businessman, but he lost everything.
And since this disastrous chapter in his life, Sam Vaknin set about
to know everything there is about the psychopathic narcissist. He
can truly say it takes one to know one.
Sam Vaknin: Narcissists are constantly in denial. They have what is
called aloplastic defences. That means they impute guilt and blame
to others. The universe is responsible for their defeats and
failures. Everything is the result of misfortune. "Narcissists are
constantly in denial.They impute guilt and blame to others…
Everything is the result of misfortune." They never suffer the
consequences of their own actions. They have what is called "magical
thinking", they feel immune.
Ian Walker: So how did you get to a point of self-awareness?
Sam Vaknin: I was crushed by life. I was imprisoned, I lost all my
money and assets - there was quite a lot of it. My wife left me. By
the time I emerged from prison a year later, I was virtually a non-
entity. This was a very sobering experience, and it forced me to
meet myself.
Ian Walker: Tell me, was it narcissism that got you in that
situation in Israel?
Sam Vaknin: I can't attribute my downfall to narcissism and only to
narcissism. There were other things. For instance, my imprisonment
and my propensity to act criminally indicates diagnosis of anti-
social personality disorder, more well-known as psychopathy. Many
narcissists are also psychopaths, and most psychopaths also have
narcissistic traits or a narcissistic style, or even a narcissistic
personality, so the distinctions are very blurred, and many people
think that they are artificial. There's very rarely a pure diagnosis
of narcissism. Narcissism is co-morbid with other mental health
disorders, mainly with other personality disorders such as the anti-
social, the borderline and, to a lesser degree, the histrionic
personality disorders. Narcissists are paranoid, many of them are
sadists, and so on and so forth. So, it's a panoply, sort of a
smorgasbord of mental health disorders. And I'm no exception. I
suffer from narcissism, but also from a host of other mental health
problems.
Ian Walker: Perhaps the only good news for a malignant narcissist is
that it's quite likely they'll get a well-paying job in a
prestigious profession.
Sam Vaknin says they're attracted to positions of power and
authority.
Sam Vaknin: You'd find a high concentration of narcissists among the
media professions, Hollywood, the church, politics and so on and so
forth. Show business and politics are infested with narcissists.
There is a professional predilection. So personality disorders
emerge in early childhood. Even as a child grows up and has to
choose a profession, he or she would normally gravitate towards
professions which are rewarding emotionally. And, if one is a
narcissist, one will gravitate towards narcissistic professions.
That is, professions which allow one to yield power or to exert
authority.
Narcissism and narcissistic behaviour is everywhere to be seen. I
mean it's within the family, it's within corporations, it's in
politics, in the administration, it's between nations and so on and
so forth. Narcissism can also be collective. We can have a
narcissistic culture, or a narcissistic society or a narcissistic
church, or a narcissistic corporation.
"The Corporation" - Mark Achbar and Jennifer Abbott 2003
Man 1: What is a corporation? It is, under the law, a legal person.
Noam Chomsky: These are special kind of persons who have no moral
conscience, designed by law to be concerned only for their
stockholders.
Man 2: I just can't be personally responsible.
Man 1: Maybe you'd better incorporate.
Voiceover: Capitalism today commands the towering heights and has
displaced politics and politicians as the new high priests. And
reigning oligarchs of our system.
CEO: OK guys, enough bullshit!
Ian Walker: It may be a chicken-and-egg question, but what is the
link between the corporation and the corporate psychopath?
In the feature documentary film The Corporation, soon to be seen in
Australian cinemas, a compelling argument is made that much
destructive corporate behaviour can be explained as psychopathic.
The film's careful to make a clear distinction between the actions
of the psychopathic corporation and those who work for it.
However, Co-director Jennifer Abbott does concede that some of her
interviewees do display some extreme and worrying psychopathic
tendencies.
Jennifer Abbott: I think because the corporation is legally-mandated
to put profit above everything, even the public good, and of course
it is an extraordinarily competitive environment at the same time,
that that frequently manifests in a kind of behaviour in individuals
which we wouldn't see them express to their families. "The
corporation is legally-mandated to put profit above everything, even
the public good." They have a different set of values within
corporate culture, than they do in society at large. One example
there might be Carlton Brown, who we interviewed. He is a
commodities broker, and he expresses extreme delight at the prospect
of Iraq being bombed, because it means gold will go up.
People find this shocking, and it is shocking, but I think it speaks
to the focus on profits, self-interest, and "in devastation there is
opportunity" he says. He sort of pays lip service to the tragedy,
but you can see it's lip service.
Carlton Brown: It was really a bad thing, one of the worst things
I've seen in my lifetime, you know. But I will tell you, and every
trader will tell who was not in that building, and who was buying
gold, and who owned gold and silver, that when it happened, the
first thing you thought about was "Well, how much is gold up?" The
first thing that came to mind was, "My God, gold must be exploding".
Fortunately for us, all our clients were in gold. So when it went
up, they all doubled their money. Everybody doubled their money. It
was a blessing in disguise…devastating, crushing, heart-shattering
but, in a financial sense, for my clients that were in the market,
they all made money. Now I wasn't looking for this type of help. But
it happened.
In devastation there is opportunity.
Ian Walker: New York commodities trader, Carlton Brown, from the
documentary film The Corporation.
While this kind of corporate cowboy opportunism may seem vaguely
immoral to some, there's always been room for some level of
craziness in the world of creative entrepreneurial enterprise.
Manfred Kets de Vries is a psychoanalyst who's been putting
businesses and their bosses on the couch for more than 30 years.
He's authored or edited about 20 books on the psychology of leaders,
with titles like The Neurotic Organisation, The Irrational
Executive, and his latest Struggling With The Demon.
He's seen the darkside of the execs of many of Europe's top
companies, including Nokia, BP and Heineken, but still has a healthy
sense of humour.
Professor Kets de Vries says the world can neatly be divided into
three distinct behavioural groups: sociopaths, psychopaths and what
he calls `normopaths', or excessively normal people.
And there's little call for them when it comes to creative business
decision-making.
Manfred Kets de Vries: Look at entrepreneurs, I mean many
entrepreneurs have this kind of mood swing attitude, you know psycho-
clinic behaviour, any level of craziness, I mean you need a lot of
craziness to be able to be creative. I make a strong plea for a
certain amount of craziness in the world.
Ian Walker: Do we have an unrealistic expectation that our CEO class
are going to be rational people?
Manfred Kets de Vries: I always make the joke the moment our senior
executive is they're liars, and it's your task to really keep the
lying to the minimum, and really hear what people are trying to tell
you. But many people start to live in their own world and you lose
their touch with reality. And that's the reason companies go astray.
I remember some time ago I was asked to do some consulting jobs. I
was picked up at the airport in a mid-sized European country and was
driven to a large, enormous building and the chauffeur asked me, `Do
you want to take the private elevator?' I said, `Why not?' So I
understand the Chairman has a private elevator and doesn't want to
meet anybody. So I go up the elevator, arrive at the top floor of
this fantastic building and there are two flunkeys waiting for me.
They shuffle me to the office of the great man. By the time he came
into the office I was ready to tell him anything. And I don't even
work for him. People have a tendency, when you are in a position of
power, to project their fantasies on you. It's called transference,
and it's very dangerous, particularly when you have large
corporations.
Ian Walker: Manfred Kets de Vries, Chair of Leadership Development
at Insead, one of the world's top business schools, based outside
Paris.
Amanda Sinclair agrees that we seem to live in an age where we
provide much fuel, or what's known as `narcissistic supply' for the
celebrity CEO.
The Melbourne Business School Professor says we need to be careful
how much we encourage this fiction, as the classic rise-and-fall-of-
the-hero story usually has an unhappy ending.
Amanda Sinclair: The factors that tend to encourage that kind of
grandiose overblown behaviour, are vastly inflated incentive
systems, incentive systems that reward bombastic, short-term
deliverables; the way in which we also turn business leaders into
celebrities and expect sort of celebrity performances.
Ian Walker: But we love these people, or we're infatuated with them
at least, because they're so full of themselves.
Amanda Sinclair: Indeed, we often project onto leader figures a
better self, you know, the self that we might want to be, "We often
project onto leader figures a better self, the self that we might
want to be." but we create leaders in order to destroy them, so it's
a pretty fragile kind of thing. We think for a short period of time
that they're going to solve everything for us, they're going to turn
around organisations, they're going to deliver miracles. But our
patience is often not all that long-term, and then we get an equal
sort of gratification about seeing the fall from grace.
Ian Walker: In Paul Babiak's intriguing case study - the story of
workplace psychopath `Dave' - Frank, Dave's boss, is `the good guy'.
After an initial honeymoon period in the job, Dave's list of
misdemeanours grew and Frank became increasingly frustrated by his
inability to discipline him, or to catch him out.
Paul Babiak: Later it was discovered that he was taking company
products for his own use, selling some of it on the side. He didn't
have a degree in the area of expertise he claimed, and the work
experience on his resume was, let's say, enhanced, to fit the job
requirements. But The Pawns supported him, by making excuses for
him, covering him, and basically helping him get through all this.
The third group, called the Organisational Police, included the
Human Resources folks, the campus security, accounting and auditing
staff, functions like that. What surprised me was that they were
basically ignored by Dave. Because they had no utility, to him, he
was not interested in dealing with them. And, when one or two of
them uncovered some of his behaviour and brought it to the attention
of upper management, they were just pushed aside. He had
successfully neutralised their power, and he sought protection of
the higher-ups, his Patrons, who allowed him to continue this
behaviour.
Ian Walker: Dave's boss Frank, was desperate to prove to his boss,
the company Vice-President, that Dave was indeed a liar.
So, Frank set a trap.
He deliberately let Dave in on a company secret, making him swear he
wouldn't tell a soul. Then, he waited.
Paul Babiak: It wasn't an hour before Dave went to the Vice-
President who was in his office and telling him this information.
But the way he told the story was twisted. He turned it around to
make Frank look like he was betraying the company, and that Dave was
actually loyal and was going to the Vice-President with this
information because he wanted to protect the Vice-President and the
organisation from Frank's deceitful behaviour.
Ian Walker: At this point, Frank thought his troubles with Dave were
over. With the Vice-President now convinced of Dave's deceptions,
there was little doubt he'd soon be sacked. But, unfortunately for
Frank, the plan backfired. Dave was always one step ahead.
Paul Babiak: Frank and the Vice-President got together, and decided
to go to the CEO, got an appointment with the CEO for the following
week. When they were in the waiting room, waiting to have their
meeting, because they were going to suggest that Dave be removed,
the door opens, and who walks out but Dave. And he smiled and walked
out.
These two gentlemen then went in to meet with the CEO and you can
imagine how shocked they were. They presented their case to the CEO,
who looked at them, and basically told them he didn't believe
anything that they had said, that he had heard what Dave had said,
believed Dave, and felt they should leave him alone.
Ian Walker: Two weeks later, Frank was moved into Special Projects.
Dave was promoted.
But what can employers do to stop the Daves of the world? Is there a
way to make the corporation psychopath-proof?
Paul Babiak and Robert Hare believe they have part of the answer: an
111-point questionnaire they call the `Business Scan' or `B-Scan'.
It's filled out by others above and below the `problem employee' to
pinpoint personality traits and behaviours which may be destructive.
The two psychologists hope it'll prevent businesses from promoting
psychopaths through their ranks, or hiring them in the first place.
(The quiz at the beginning of our show was based on some of the B-
Scan's core items.)
But while there's some good news for prevention, the prognosis for
treating psychopaths is not so bright. As has been shown with many
prison rehabilitation programs, some treatments may actually make
them worse, or at least better-functioning psychopaths.
Robert Hare: Programs that are emotion-based, that appeal to one's
sense of right and wrong, or depend upon the presence of a
conscience or the ability to understand emotionally what other
people are going through, these are not programs for psychopaths,
they would work for the average offender. But for psychopaths, it
certainly is a waste of time. So what we need is other programs that
are designed to take in their nature.
Ian Walker: So, primarily you have to pander to self-interest, and
perhaps use flattery?
Robert Hare: Exactly right. You put your finger right on it.
Enlightened self-interest is not a bad idea for psychopaths, and try
to indicate or convince them that there are ways in which they can
get what they want and need without having to actually harm other
people. "Enlightened self-interest is not a bad idea for
psychopaths…" Now it's easier said than done, because their
behavioural patterns are fairly entrenched. But these are not stupid
people, I mean the range of intelligence amongst psychopathic
populations is the same as it is in the general population. These
are people who know what's going on. So I'm hopeful that we can
develop some sort of programs that would be useful for psychopathic
personalities.
Ian Walker: If Paul Babiak's `Dave' story had a happy ending for the
rest of us, it would of course be that Dave has his comeuppance, is
found out and goes to jail for fraud or embezzlement.
The unfortunate truth is that he's survived two more company
mergers, successfully sacked all his previous enemies, had numerous
pay rises, and just keeps on getting promoted.
Dave is a modern business success story…a hero of our times!
Background Briefing's Co-ordinating Producer is Linda McGinnis…
Research Ross Duncan…Webmaster is Paul Bolger…Technical Producer
John Jacobs…Executive Psychopath Kirsten Garrett. I'm Ian Walker.
You're listening to ABC Radio National.
Further information
Robert Hare's website devoted to the study of Psychopathy
http://www.hare.org/
Sam Vaknin website on Malignant Narcissism
http://samvak.tripod.com/
Enron tapes
http://www.enrontapes.com
Open Democracy article about Psycho CEOs
http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article-7-29-260.jsp#
Resources for victims of bullying
http://www.bullyonline.org
Website for the movie The Corporation
http://www.thecorporation.com/
i-Corp - The Corporation Interactive
http://www.thecorporation.tv/icorp/
(continued below)
==================================================
Abused? Stalked? Harassed? Victimized? Afraid? Confused? Need HELP?
"The Narcissism Series" - (December 2004)
Six e-books regarding Pathological Narcissism, relationships with
abusive narcissists, and the Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD).
http://www.ccnow.com/cgi-local/cart.cgi?vaksam_SERIES
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/thebook.html
====================================================
http://www.natterbox.com/vaknin/vaknin1.html
The Ambassador of Narcissism: An Interview with Sam Vaknin
By Bob Goodman
January 5, 2000 |
In Greek mythology, the gods cast a pernicious spell on Narcissus as
punishment for his refusal to love others. Peering into a pool of
water, Narcissus sees a beautiful being and falls madly in love,
never realizing that the object of his affection is nothing more
than his own reflection. His love unrequited, Narcissus pines away
and perishes, leaving only a flower in his wake.
From this myth comes the term "narcissism." The psychological
condition of narcissism in extremis, known as "Narcissistic
Personality Disorder," was first given medical credence by the
American Psychiatric Association in 1980. Those under the spell of
NPD share a penchant for compulsive self-promotion, doomed
grandiosity, and aggressive avoidance of empathy.
Since the April '97 debut of his "Malignant Self Love" Web site, Sam
(Shmuel) Vaknin has created a niche for himself as an expert on the
mechanics of narcissism. According to Vaknin, his site drew about
140,000 visitors last year, and he has self-published its contents
in a book by the same name. He also maintains a Web-based discussion
group for people suffering from NPD, as well as those involved in
relationships with narcissists.
Judging by his curriculum vitae, Vaknin, 38, an Israeli-born
businessman and writer now living in Macedonia and working as a
newspaper columnist and government advisor, would seem an unlikely
candidate to be dispensing psychological advice. He has no medical
or academic training in the field (his Ph.D from Pacific Western
University is in philosophy); he's a childless divorcee; his
occupational history is peripatetic (he indicates he made millions
through a host of technology-related business ventures); and he's an
ex-con, having spent 11 months in an Israeli prison for criminal
stock manipulation. (Vaknin says his actions were an outgrowth of
his effort to expose government corruption; click here to see the
sidebar, "Vaknin's Stock Manipulation," for more details.)
And yet, Vaknin's writing, replete with academic coinages such as
SNSS (Secondary Narcissistic Supply) and FEGO (false ego), unabashed
condemnation of narcissists as predators, and anarchic free-
association, goes places where a dispassionate professional would
probably fear to tread. That's because, on this subject, Vaknin has
the ultimate credential: he's a full-fledged, and probably
incurable, sufferer of NPD, himself.
On his book jacket, Vaknin writes that "Malignant Self-Love" "was
composed in jail as I was trying to understand what had hit me. My
nine years old marriage had desolved, my finances were in a shocking
condition, my family estranged, my reputation ruined. Slowly, the
realization that it was all my fault, that I was sick and needed
help, penetrated the decades-old defenses I had erected around me."
In his subsequent writings and Internet publications, Vaknin
leverages the knowledge gained from researching NPD, chiefly his
own, to offer an insider's guide to this insidious and misunderstood
condition.
Despite his own cautionary advice about the dangers of trusting a
narcissist, he appears to have garnered a faithful following. On a
Web site entitled "Family By Choice," one reader went so far as to
nominate Vaknin for an award with the following remark: "Sam,
despite his illness, has resolutely used his insight into his
disorder to severely regiment and train his behavior to be solely
helpful to others."
Following a brief phone conversation, in which Vaknin, in his heavy
Israeli accent, was courteous and formal, we conducted this
interview entirely by e-mail over the course of several weeks; it
appears here in edited form. Throughout, the multi-faceted persona
which Vaknin attributes to himself and to his fellow narcissists --
equal parts guru, confidence man, and enfant terrible -- was very
much in evidence.
But our "transactions" did not end there. Prior to the interview's
publication in Natterbox, I made a surprising discovery: I had been
scooped. Vaknin had gone ahead and published a version of the Vaknin
interview on the Vaknin Web site. When I sent an e-mail to clarify
who had the right to publish what, I found myself on the receiving
end of Vaknin's vitriol, as he fired off two angry e-mails (click
here to see the sidebar, "Dueling Webmasters," for the full e-mail
exchange). In a follow-up e-mail, dispatched twice the next day, he
offered apologies and urged me to publish the exchange as a prime
example of NPD in action. I was left to ponder whether there could
be anything more narcissistic than a narcissist promoting his own
narcissism.
BG: Narcissism is a very misunderstood term. In the popular lexicon,
it seems to be used interchangeably with self-confidence or self-
absorption. How do you define narcissism?
VAKNIN: Narcissism (rather, pathological narcissism) is the absence
of a functioning self (or, to be more precise, ego). It is the
constant dependence upon other people to gain self-esteem, to
regulate a sense of self-worth and to gain self-confidence.
Narcissism is, therefore, other-absorption rather than self-
absorption. The narcissist is attuned to input (real or perceived)
from other people because in the absence of such constant feedback
he feels annulled, non-existent, void (and in many respects, he is).
I use "he," though everything I say here applies as forcefully to
women.
The narcissist constructs an elaborate, largely fictitious,
grandiose image of himself (the "false self"). He then hurls it at
people and monitors their every reaction. Reactions that conform to
the information contained in the false self generate a flooding
sensation of omnipotence, omniscience, brilliance, and perfection.
Reactions that negate the false self cause narcissistic injury: a
terrible, insupportable, excruciating agony. The narcissist
administers mental painkillers to himself by discounting
("devaluing") the source of the hurtful reaction, by dismissing the
reaction itself, or by altering the false self to conform to it --
in short, by activating a mechanism known as "cognitive dissonance."
BG: Is there such a thing as healthy narcissism, and at one point
would you say that narcissism enters the realm of pathology?
VAKNIN: Narcissism is an integral part of our development as humans.
A residue of it survives well into adulthood. It is essential, it
keeps us alive. It drives us to achieve things and to seek the
approval of other humans. It helps us bond with significant others,
motivates us to raise children, to consume, to study, to explore, to
discover, to invent, to innovate. It is a powerful engine of human
personal progress.
Pathological narcissism has very little to do with healthy
narcissism. It thrives on any kind of attention, even a negative one
(infamy, fear, hatred), and from anyone: the narcissist has no
significant or meaningful others in his life. It is disconnected
from reality (fails the reality test). The false self [...] is a
concoction, a distorted invention, replete with magical thinking and
ideas of reference. It [narcissism] leads to dependence rather than
to interdependence, to conflict rather than to collaboration, to
sadistic behaviours rather than to tender emotions. It is a
malignant form of narcissism because it takes over the host and then
kills it.
BG: You make NPD sound like a kind of parasite, both in the way the
disorder impacts the narcissist himself, and in the parasitic
attitude the narcissist then takes towards others.
VAKNIN: Indeed. Pathological narcissism is parasitism. It is the
unabashed, ruthless and unscrupulous exploitation of others as
sounding boards, as accumulators of past glories, as servants, as
extensions of the narcissist. The narcissist idealizes, then uses,
then devalues, then discards. He is the epitome of the society of
waste and consumerism -- with other humans as the raw materials. The
narcissist colonises, then abandons. His are viral qualities; he
leverages the host's own assets to infect and manipulate the host.
And pathological narcissism is a viral process: normal development
is thwarted by the invasion and takeover of rigid defense mechanisms.
BG: But don't healthy and pathological narcissism both spring from
the same source? You seem to be saying that the desire for approval,
which in the case of healthy narcissism is a kind of glue that helps
create and cement relationships, becomes so overpowering as to
destroy them altogether.
VAKNIN: Both healthy and pathological narcissism are part of the
same developmental phase. But while the former is not concerned
primarily with others, the latter is absolutely other-directed.
Healthy narcissism is what we call "self-love," "self-esteem,"
and "self-worth." It is a constant; it requires no regulation and it
is attuned to reality. It does not fluctuate with input from the
outside. Pathological narcissism is everything that healthy
narcissism is not. It is derived exclusively from the outside, it
fluctuates widely and it is self-destructive and self-defeating
because it gauges reality very poorly. Additionally, very often, it
is connected to strong masochistic urges and to a punishing,
sadistic, immature and rigid super-ego (conscience).
BG: I've seen "Malignant Self Love" described in some contexts as a
self-help book. Often in this genre, we see authors who have
triumphed over some personal adversity and wish to help others do
the same. But your approach is quite different. You write that your
discovery of your own NPD "was a painful process which led nowhere.
I am no different -- and no healthier -- today than I was when I
wrote this book. My disorder is here to stay, the prognosis poor and
alarming." Do you see the book, then, as more a work of self-
literacy than self-healing?
VAKNIN: I never described "Malignant Self Love" as a helpful work.
It is not. It is a dark, hopeless tome. Narcissists have no
horizons, they are doomed by their own history, by their successful
adaptation to abnormal circumstances and by the uncompromising
nature of their defense mechanisms. My book is a scientific
observation of the beast, coupled with an effort to salvage its
victims. Narcissists are absent-minded sadists and they victimize
everyone around them. Those in contact with them need guidance and
help. "Malignant Self Love" is a phenomenology of the predator on
the one hand, and a vindication and validation of its prey on the
other.
BG: You are a self-professed narcissist, and you warn your readers
that narcissists are punishing, pathological, and not to be trusted.
Yet hundreds of readers or customers seem to be looking to you for
help and advice on how to cope with their own narcissism or their
relationship with a narcissist. I'm struck by a kind of hall-of-
mirrors effect here. How do you reconcile these seeming
contradictions?
VAKNIN: Indeed, only seeming. I may have misphrased myself.
By "helpful" I meant "intended to help." The book was never intended
to help anyone. Above all, it was meant to attract attention and
adulation (narcissistic supply) to its author, myself. Being in a
guru-like status is the ultimate narcissistic experience. Had I not
also been a misanthrope and a schizoid, I might have actually
enjoyed it. The book is imbued with an acerbic and vitriolic self-
hatred, replete with diatribes and jeremiads and glaring warnings
regarding narcissists and their despicable behaviour. I refused to
be "politically correct" and call the narcissist "other-challenged."
Yet, I am a narcissist and the book is, therefore, a self-
directed "J'accuse." This satisfies the enfant terrible in me, the
part of me that seeks to be despised, abhorred, derided and,
ultimately, punished by society at large.
BG: Where did the idea for your Web site, in which you first
published your theories on NPD, come from, and how has it evolved?
VAKNIN: I did not believe then, nor do I believe now that any
publisher would have published my writings. I come on too strongly,
I am uncompromising, and I am politically very incorrect. Publishers
are commercially motivated and politically constrained. Is it a
coincidence that the Internet and e-books evolved in tandem with
desktop publishing? It is a revolt against the publishing
establishment. The Web site -- and the printed edition that
followed -- were acts of desperation. But, in hindsight, it was a
blessing. My site has 1500 impressions (about 400 new readers) daily
(about 140,000 readers accessed it in the last 12 months). I have a
discussion group with 420 members. My book is being sold through
Barnes and Noble. I am content.
At the beginning, I simply translated my jailhouse notes, taken from
a worn-out cardboard-bound notepad. Then, as people kept writing to
me (I get about 20 letters daily), asking the same questions over
and over again, I came up with the "Frequently Asked Questions"
sections (all 67 of them). Then I noticed that my listmembers were
especially attached to certain messages and were asking me to re-
post them to the list from time to time. I collected them in 26
(soon to be 27) "Excerpts from the Narcissism List" pages. So, you
see, the site developed by default and in response to pressures by
my "customers." I want to emphasize that only the print edition of
the book costs money. The rest -- the full text of the book, the
discussion group (5-7 daily articles) -- are free of charge.
BG: While you say your work is not helpful, don't you feel that at
least the "victims" of narcissists might be helped? After all,
you're giving away all the trade secrets.
VAKNIN: The victims of narcissists have rarely become victims
randomly. It is very akin to an immunological response: there is a
structural affinity, an inexorable attraction, an irreversible
bonding and an ensuing addiction far stronger than any substance
abuse. I, therefore, am doubtful not only with regards to the
prognosis of a narcissist but also with regards to the healing
prospects of those exposed to his poisoned charms. The inverted
narcissists (a sub-species of codependent who is specifically
attracted to narcissists) are narcissists -- kind of mirror
narcissists. As such, they are no less doomed than the "original."
BG: I'm still curious, though, what your attitude is toward
your "customers." It's clear you appreciate the attention from them,
but do you consider them foolish for seeking advice from a
narcissist such as yourself?
VAKNIN: I am by far the most intelligent person I know, so, the deep-
seated belief that others are bumbling, ineffectual fools is a
constant feature of my mental landscape. But seeking advice from a
narcissist about narcissism doesn't sound foolish to me --
distortions, to the advice received.
BG: In addition to the metaphor of narcissists as drug addicts
seeking a fix, you often use terms culled from economics to describe
psychological dynamics: narcissists overinvest, devalue, attempt to
gain strategic advantage, etc. Are there other ways in which your
background in economics informs your psychological theories?
VAKNIN: Surprisingly, these terms are borrowed, not mine.
Devaluation, narcissistic supply -- are not my inventions (what a
narcissistic injury!). But, of course, economics, physics and
philosophy (my fields) inform and form my world of metaphors.
Fortunately, I am also a published author of short fiction (in
Hebrew) and I even write poetry, so I am not as dry as one might
fear.
But there is another angle to it. The narcissist does view the world
solely in economic and contractual terms. Deprived of access to his
own emotions, the narcissist is a diligent student of other people's
behaviour patterns. This is how he get his behavioural cues and
clues. The narcissist is a phenomenologist and, as one, his is a
cold, detached, observational world in which people transact rather
than interact. To the narcissist, people are reducible codes and
self-interest and contract-making are the twin keys to their
deciphering. The narcissist behaves this way in his own life. He
contracts with others, he measures their performance, protests
violations, threatens litigation or sanctions. The narcissist is a
businessman who is constantly trading bits of his life against
narcissistic supply.
BG: You write that a person suffering from Narcissistic Personality
Disorder is deeply determined to think of his personality as unique.
Yet those with NPD share a common, and sometimes readily
identifiable, set of traits. Can you discuss some of those traits,
and explain why they add up to a personality disorder -- rather than
simply a personality?
VAKNIN: The last part is easy. Pathological narcissism is self-
defeating and self-destructive on a consistent and long-term basis.
A pattern of behaviours, cognitions and emotions that leads one away
from happiness is a personality disorder-- not a personality.
Narcissists are often dysphoric and (as recent research
demonstrates) ego-dystonic (or, in plain English, they are often sad
and malcontent). Their lives are a mess and often characterized by
frequent losses (divorces, dismissals, failures, conflicts with
authorities and the law, bankruptcies and so on). Hence the
word "disorder." It is indeed comic that narcissists should think
about themselves as unique. They are the most rigid, predictable and
automatic group of humans I know.
BG: Do you think there are certain kinds of traumas that result in
NPD, or are there certain kinds of people whose reaction to trauma
results in NPD?
VAKNIN: NPD is a new phenomenon. It was first recognized as an
autonomous mental health disorder in 1980 (DSM III) [The Diagnostic
and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders]. There is almost no
research about any aspect of pathological narcissism: epidemiology,
etiology, dynamics, prognosis, nothing. Most of my correspondence
has been with victims of narcissists or people who have been
interacting with them. Thus, I studied narcissism both first hand (I
am a narcissist) and second hand. But the first sample, myself, is
quite biased and the second one both biased and unreliable.
Narcissists tend to deceive their environment [...] by massively and
frequently re-authoring their life narrative and biography.
But, I think that the following common strands are rather "safe":
narcissists grow up in emotionally dysfunctional (though not
necessarily abusive) families with no unconditional love, no
validation, no affirmation, insecure parents, emotional liability of
family members, capriciousness and unpredictability of conduct and a
perturbed process of socialization and so on. Narcissists have been
either utterly ignored, neglected, misunderstood and abused in
childhood, or pampered, doted upon and stifled in their formative
years. Narcissists are often the offspring of narcissistic parents
(narcissism breeds narcissism). There are more male narcissists than
female ones. That just about sums up what we know today about the
etiology of narcissism.
BG: You've written that when you were a prisoner, you began to study
your fellow inmates and came to see yourself in them. At the time,
did that recognition take you by surprise?
VAKNIN: Not really. I have a long history of associating with
criminals and personal brinkmanship. All my adulthood I have been a
vicarious delinquent, observing with awe and admiration and humour
the circles I moved in. What did astonish me was the close
resemblance of narcissism and addictive behaviours (drugs, gambling,
etc.). It was then that it dawned on me that narcissism was an
addiction (to narcissistic supply).
BG: Do you remember any specific prisoners with whom you found
something in common?
VAKNIN: I befriended all the murderers without exception. There is
something profound and occult in breaking this frontier taboo -- I
have the same feeling about incest. I am attracted to these people
not because I have anything in common with them, but because I
strive to understand them. It is through human wreckage that I hope
to reconstruct "being human." Devoid of empathy, I need sharp,
unmitigated, grotesque, and horrific experiences to jolt me into a
vague recognition of the denominator common to myself and to
all "others." This, by the way, is an important strand in
psychology: it is through the study of aberrations, deviations,
perversions and pathologies that it strives to fathom "normal" human
nature.
BG: Prior to your trial, conviction, and process of self-discovery,
when your business ventures were going well, what did you imagine
your life was going to be like?
VAKNIN: I am a man whose central dream came true. Even as an infant
I used to imagine the Internet. It had no name, no technical
specifications, no being. But I knew what it would do for me. It
would give me access to unending libraries, gigantic storehouses of
data, to free everything: books, music, movies. I couldn't wait. I
collected every shred of evidence that my dream was becoming true.
And it did and here I am, happy as a lark to have lived in this
terrible and magnificent century. Through the gate of my laptop
screen, I submerge in the warm waters of knowledge. What a cool,
dazzling feeling! I know you will find it incredible but this has
been the central hope, driving force and aspiration of my life --
this and a side daydream of becoming a monstrously vicious dictator,
feared by all, loved by none, almighty and held in awe.
BG: Your parents were immigrants from Turkey and Morocco, right?
When had they come to Israel?
VAKNIN: Both emigrated to Israel in the early 1950s. My mother was a
child and her family escaped growing anti-Semitic sentiments in the
predominantly Moslem population of Turkey. My father escaped his
family: a tyrant, drunkard of a father and a submissive mother,
tortured by her inebriated husband. He left Morocco in his early
teens, illicitly, by sea.
BG: What did your parents do professionally?
VAKNIN: My mother was all her life a wife to both my father and to
her house. As a consequence, she had very little time left for us,
her children. She was also fighting what I now know to have been
severe mental disorders. Later in life, she healed spontaneously and
developed a minor career as a caretaker, looking after the disabled
and the geriatric. My father, a clinically depressed person if I
ever saw one, climbed the corporate ladder to become a regional
construction site manager. But he was never too gregarious or
obedient and so, hated by the management and admired by very few co-
workers for his professionalism, he was booted out. He spent eight
years wallowing in self-pity until he found a menial job in a
warehouse, way beneath his qualifications. He likes it there. It
validates his view of himself as a martyr.
BG: What was your family's attitude toward religion?
VAKNIN: My parents vacillated between ridicule and disdain and bouts
of devoutness. On the average, we were a mildly traditionalist
family: selectively observing a few religious commandments and
rites. Two of my brothers flirted with fundamentalist Judaism (less
derogatorily known as Orthodoxy) only to come full circle to being
dedicated atheists. I am agnostic. I simply don't know and I do not
waste my time on questions which are, in principle, non-answerable.
BG: You must have served in the Israeli army. How did you find that?
VAKNIN: I served more than three years in the Israeli army. Halfway
through, I became a famous national figure which allowed me to
manipulate the army command, my co-soldiers and the army structures
to accommodate themselves to my "special needs." The first half was
a voyage of discovery of "what's out there": Israel, guys, gals (no
sex), the company of others. The second half was an hallucinatory
and unmitigated ego trip.
BG: Was your fame at this time based on your business success?
VAKNIN: Oh, no. I did own at the time 25 percent of a retail outlet
which sold computerized astrological predictions to the gullible,
using the state-of-the-art monsters which then passed for computers.
But I became famous first as a "genius" physicist and philosopher of
science. There were later waves of fame: as an angry member of the
Sepharadi minority, as the right hand of a Jewish billionaire, as a
stockbroker and, finally, as a criminal.
BG: Can you recall any specific instances of discrimination or
oppression that you or your family members faced as Sephardim?
VAKNIN: It was not state policy; there was no Israeli apartheid. But
it was in the air, in the fact that we lived in segregated
neighbourhoods, in linguistic ghettoes. We rarely inter-married and
Ashkenazi officials always made disparaging remarks about Sepharadim
and their (lack of) culture in public. It was in the humiliating
Israeli anti-Sepharadi slang [that was emerging], and in the fact
that, barring some token Sepharadim, there were none in any elite:
the military, the political, the academic, the literary. In other
words, it was a glass ceiling put very low.
BG: I understand you're something of a nomad now, hopping from
country to country and job to job. Do you ever long for a more
settled existence?
VAKNIN: Never. You are describing a morgue, a cemetery. My life is
colourful, adventurous, impossible, cinematic. Sure, I pay a price --
who doesn't? Is there no price to be for a sedentary, predictable,
numbing existence? When one is 90 years old, all that is left is
memories. You are the director of the movie of your life, a 70 years-
long movie. Now, sit back and begin to watch: is it a boring film?
would you have watched it had it not been yours? If the answers are
negative and positive, respectively, you succeeded to live well,
regardless of the price you paid.
BG: You've written that narcissists suffer from terrible bouts of
depression (or dysphorias) when they are running short of
narcissistic supply. How do you cope with these periods?
VAKNIN: These dysphorias are always reactions to the diminishment of
narcissistic supply. Such diminishment can be the result of the
objective disappearance or attrition of sources of supply, or of the
devaluation of trustworthy and available ones. In the past I used to
react by frantically groping for new sources of supply. Lately, I
react by withdrawing completely from the world while I try to
cultivate new sources of supply which will not require contact with
humans in the flesh (this interview, my mailing list, my sites, my
books, my articles, other interviews). The older I become, the more
my schizoid features emerge at the expense of my narcissism. I might
end up being a bitter recluse. My political columns are definitely
authored by a cantankerous hater and despiser of mankind.
BG: In "Malignant Self Love," you write: "The Narcissist does his
damndest to avoid intimacy. He constantly lies about every aspect of
his life: his self, his history, his vocation and avocations, his
emotions. This false information and the informative asymmetry in
the relationship guarantee his informative lead, or 'advantage.' "
It seems from this statement that the narcissist is a poker-faced
card player who refuses to show his hand. In light of these
statements, should your remarks in this interview be taken with a
grain of salt?
VAKNIN: Is this interview intimate in any sense of the word? I
wasn't aware of it. To me, this is the exchange of bits and bytes
for a mutual benefit. I fill in the forms (respond to your
questions), and you get to add an interview to your site. A
transaction. But your question is pertinent because the narcissist
is a pathological liar -- that is, a liar who lies for no
discernible gain. Additionally, the narcissist suffers from
cognitive distortions. He views the world in a unique manner, imbues
it with transcendent meaning, populates it with creatures of his
psyche, re-orders it in accordance with his highly idiosyncratic
scheme of things, attributes to people motives they never had,
lashes out against the inhabitants of his paranoia, and so on. In
short, the narcissist is more often in the fantasy land of his
grandiosity than with us, here, on earth. I did my best not to lie
in this interview (it takes a conscious effort on my part). I cannot
spot the cognitive distortions, needless to add.
Sam Vaknin | Further Reading
--------------
Other Sam Vaknin Sites Online
Narcissism FAQs
Malignant Self Love
WebMD Interview
Columns In Central Europe Review
Vaknin Essays
Sam Vaknin | Vaknin's Stock Manipulation: Background from The
Jerusalem Post and Vaknin
--------------
The June 14, 1996 edition of The Jerusalem Post ("Supreme Court
Rejects Appeal of Thee Stock Manipulators" by Evelyn Gordon, Page
5), offers the following account of Vaknin's conviction for stock
manipulation. Vaknin, Nissim Avioz, and Dov Landau owned an
investment firm; they also owned a majority stake in the Agriculture
Bank, which they hoped to unload. In 1988, the firm convinced two
customers to buy stock from the Agriculture Bank with the false
assurance that the bank was profitable, The Post reports.
The firm proceeded to purchased for the customers more than twice
the number of shares they had requested, overdrawing their accounts.
The customers demanded that the excess shares be sold. To avoid
losing money on that sale, the firm artificially inflated the stock
price. They achieved this artificial inflation by placing a large
buy order for the stock, which was "disguised as several small
orders from different banks," according to The Post.
The Supreme Court refused to overturn the lower court's verdict. In
that earlier verdict, each of the three men was found guilty on
three counts of stock fraud and sentenced to a one-year prison term
and fined 50,000 New Israeli Shekels. In upholding the lower court
ruling, the Supreme Court justices were quoted by The Post as saying
that Vaknin, Avioz, and Landau had "damaged their customers; they
damaged the public interest; they damaged the foundation of the
capital market; and they damaged the public's trust in this market."
Vaknin offered his own version of events and declined to comment on
the details of The Post article. Vaknin's comments are presented
here in their entirety:
"I was imprisoned in 1995 for stock manipulation and grand fraud.
The real story is more complex, as usual. I did criminally
manipulate the price of stocks. But there are a few caveats: I took
over a government-owned bank. Together with a few partners, I came
to own 80 percent of it. When I began to attend the shareholders'
meetings, I discovered to my horror that 200 million USD of the
loans on its books were dud. The money was siphoned off to cronies
of the then socialist ruling party.
I took the government to court and won the first two rounds. I was
on the verge of dislodging the government from the bank completely
and exposing massive fraud and corruption. But I was running short
on money. The ruling party sent two 'new partners' to me. They
bought some of the shares from me. Then they began to pressurize and
threaten me. I felt that I had to manipulate the price of the stock
to get rid of them (at the right, high, price they sold out to
another broker). There was no damage to the public because I owned
all the free-floating stocks (together with my 'new partners').
Suddenly, these two turned up as state witnesses and testified
against me. They were rewarded with positions in the government and
in state industry.
Together with two others, I was sentenced to three years in prison.
The others were pardoned. I served 11 months of my sentence and was
released on good behavior. Using complicated legal techniques, I
attacked the President of the Supreme Court and forced him into
civil proceedings in his own court. He didn't like it. This is why I
served the sentence and the others didn't. He sentenced me after I
sued him! So much for judicial impartiality. The case is very well-
known in Israel. Many lawyers and law professors couldn't face the
injustice. Following my prison term, I was appointed research
assistant in the Faculty of Law in Tel Aviv University (as a
prisoner!). This is one of the two chapters in my life of which I am
most proud."
Sam Vaknin | Dueling Webmasters: Vaknin's E-mail Outburst
--------------
Prelude: The following e-mail exchange between myself and Sam Vaknin
is included with his permission. I sent the first e-mail because I
believed his publication of the raw transcript from our exchange
could be misinterpreted as the final Natterbox version. I also
wanted to establish some ground rules going forward. Vaknin
dispatched his responses in rapid succession. -- BG.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
From: Bob Goodman
To: Sam Vaknin, Ph.D.
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2000 7:55 PM
Subject: Publication of Interview
Hello, Sam.
I have finished the preparation of our interview and had been
planning to publish it on Tuesday night. However, having come across
your posting,
http://samvak.tripod.com/archive17.html, I must make
the following points:
1. You've linked to a URL on Natterbox which is not active. In the
process of updating the site recently to add tracking capabilities,
I briefly tested a new homepage and I can only assume that is how
you came across this inactive and inaccurate URL. The URL you have
posted will not, in fact, serve as the actual URL.
2. I'm sure you understand, as a professional writer yourself, that
I do not allow my work to be published until it has been refined,
edited and proofed. If you would like to publish the raw, unedited
transcript of our e-mail exchange, be my guest. However, it must be
explicitly titled as such -- something along the lines of "unedited
transcripts of e-mail exchange between Vaknin and Goodman" -- and
may not be presented as authored by me or as Natterbox content.
3. As to reprinting the final version of the interview, that's
something you and I would have to discuss, as all Natterbox material
is copyrighted, and may not be reproduced without my permission.
Kindly revise the content of your posting accordingly.
Thanks for your understanding.
-- Bob
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
Subject: Re: Publication of Interview
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:12 AM
From: "Sam Vaknin, Ph.D."
To: "Bob Goodman"
Bob, My site makes it abundantly clear that it is the UNEDITED, etc.
I see no reason for revision. I provide you with free publicity free
of charge (my list has 430 members and my site 1500 DAILY
impressions) -- you should thank me for. I never gave you copyright
on anything, nor do I intend to. Copyright has to be granted in
writing. If this is not acceptable -- do not publish the interview,
let me know and I will delete all reference to Natterbox,
immediately. I repeat: you do NOT own the copyright to anything I
write. this is my condition. It is not too late -- if you disagree
simply do not publish the interview.
Please make your decision. If positive, send me the right link and I
will insert it immediately.
Have a Happy New Year,
Sam
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
Subject:Altered archive17.html
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:36 AM
From: "Sam Vaknin, Ph.D."
To: "Bob Goodman"
Hi, Bob,
Here is the new version of archive17.html
Regarding the copyright: I retain the copyright on everything I
write - including responses to an interview. I hate Americans in
general and their pusillanimous litigious minds in particular (as
does most of the world) -- so, do me a favour: take it or leave it
and don't waste my time with this any longer.
Thank you,
Sam
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
Subject:A Narcissistic "Acting Out"
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 1:27 PM
From: "Sam Vaknin, Ph.D."
To: "Bob Goodman"
Dear Bob,
First, allow me to apologize for my disproportional and vile
outbursts yesterday.
It is a perfect example of Narcissistic acting out -- narcissistic
injury (a perceived slight inflated paranoiacally to the level of a
mortal wound).
Actually, you have my permission to publish the whole exchange of
email unaltered.
More to the point:
I amended archive17 as per your (reasonable) request. I hope you
received it.
We do have a problem with the copyright. I never give up the
copyright on things I write, even in response to an e-mail
interview. The final version is yours and out of bounds -- but my
raw answers are mine to use as I see fit.
I hope this is acceptable to you. Please let me know.
Sam
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
Subject:Re: A Narcissistic "Acting Out"
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 2:49 PM
From: "Bob Goodman"
To:"Sam Vaknin, Ph.D."
Dear Sam,
On behalf of myself and the American people, apology accepted. Yes,
our understanding of copyright litigation is in concurrence. The
rights to the raw answers are yours. The rights to the
Natterbox "package" of the interview are mine. Your revised posting,
with the exception of a typo (the spelling of my name on second
reference, "Bob Goddman"), is acceptable.
A pleasure transacting with you,
Bob
=======================================================
AUTHOR BIO:
Sam Vaknin is the author of Malignant Self Love - Narcissism
Revisited and After the Rain - How the West Lost the East. He served
as a columnist for Central Europe Review, PopMatters, Bellaonline,
and eBookWeb, a United Press International (UPI) Senior Business
Correspondent, and the editor of mental health and Central East
Europe categories in The Open Directory and Suite101.
Until recently, he served as the Economic Advisor to the Government
of Macedonia.
Visit Sam's Web site at
http://samvak.tripod.com
============================================================
Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited is now available from
Amazon Canada:
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/tg/detail/offer-listing/-
/8023833847/new/
And from Amazon.com:
http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-
glance/Y01Y4295422Y6845244/qid%3D1103212662/102-2792725-7464140
=============================================================
Links of Interest
NPD Family Community Info
http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=npd_family
Stalking Resource Center
http://www.ncvc.org/src/
You are a Target, Not a Victim
http://www.youareatarget.com/
==============================================================
Refer journalists and editors to my media kit:
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/mediakit.html
BUY the NEW EDITION of my book - "Malignant Self Love - Narcissism
Revisited" ($12 DISCOUNT)
http://barnesandnoble.bfast.com/booklink/click?ISBN=8023833847
Other books about abusive relationships and how to cope with abusers
http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/thebook.html
==============================
Abused? Stalked? Harassed? Victimized? Afraid? Confused? Need HELP?
Click on these links to purchase the PRINT BOOK and SIX E-BOOKS:
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Free excerpts from the book are available here:
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The Narcissism Book of Quotes is available for free download here:
http://www.suite101.com/files/topics/6514/files/NPDQuotes.rtf
Have a safe and warm week!
Sam
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