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Hello Paul and Kitty,
I'm writing to let you know that one of your hyperlinks is not working. On
the webpage: http://selfsip.org/critiques/ when I click on the link Some
excerpts from Thoreau it simply takes me to the top of the same page.
[I was pretty sure I knew what your problem was but I immediately tried the link
just in case.... I had no problem getting the link to go to Strike the Root,
although my code did not display a title for the link. Since the link is
turn-on notice on at least all major SelfSIP pages. Therefore I have done just
that and now anyone going to any of the index pages for the homepage and
subsections of the Self-Sovereign Individual Project who does not have
You will only be able to make use of major features of the Self-Sovereign
Virtually all the outside links and even certain ones internal to SelfSIP have
the referenced item opens (when the link is clicked) in a minor window. (The
article Paul wrote on Thoreau was done before SelfSIP.org existed and correctly
should be a direct link, not one in a minor window - I have changed the coding
so that this occurs.)
[We have used a minor (small) window for many links because they are essentially
only references and we did not want the reader to not be able to see the
original page from which s/he comes at SelfSIP while reading the referenced
link. We have done the same thing for definitions and for literature references
within MoreLife. We do this to help the reader not lose track of where s/he is
and be able to continue focusing on the original that s/he was reading. This is
particularly necessary on the SelfSIP pages which require a lot of focused deep
this software coding method is responsible for virus spread on computers. Coding
is not "responsible" for anything, good or bad. It is people who create computer
viruses who are responsible for the havoc that occurs and can be spread with
Everything directly on SelfSIP.org is code-created by Paul and me, and only
uploaded by me. We do provide links to some outside sites, but they are all ones
that I have personally reviewed (and often Paul too). We have found that the use
well as MoreLife.org) in a manner that is user convenient for presentation and
is relatively easy for both of us to do. While there exist other programming
tools that may very well allow for similarly convenient page presentation, they
all require a fair amount of familiarity which means time in learning it. Almost
a year ago I received an email from a person complaining that MoreLife used
> From: XXX [deleted by Kitty]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 5:32 PM
> To: kitty@...
> Subject: Morelife - Questions/Comments - Food your site requires
I appreciate your desire to keep your computer functioning at full capability.
However, don't accept computer viruses as a fact of reality, a product of a
non-thinking nature/universe. They are created by evil thinking/doing people.
You likely have the option to click the Trusted Sites icon (or equivalent) in
your browser for MoreLife and Self-SIP. If you don't think you can trust us,
then first do your research on us at other locations. That's a viable
alternative always open to you and others since we are very public people.
MoreLife and Self-SIP websites. We cannot and would not attempt to force anyone
make it clear to viewers that they will not be able to make full use of the site
> Here is an example that does not:
Both of these are pure sales sites with a large income stream (perhaps you
didn't notice that we don't sell any products on MoreLife.org - or SelfSIP.org),
plenty of staff and likely even outside computer software consultants. We are 2
people only from start to finish of everything at MoreLife and SelfSIP - there
is no one else behind the scene writing code. If you want to provide coding as a
value for value payment (see http://morelife.org/supporting.html ) for an
be great - and you'd have public recognition of your real support for our
> the way viruses propagate.
> Without them, viruses cannot propagate.
And without people who would do harm to others, without this impractical
penchant for a "commons" Internet with mostly flat rate charging and with the
help of all those who currently do not socially preference against such doers of
harm, there would be no computer viruses.
[And with more people requiring complete mandatory identification of all those
with whom they interface. --Paul]
> Thanks in advance.
> Thank you very much.
> If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact me.
> Thanks, [name and address deleted by Kitty; s/he is a member of the
instructional and electronics support staff at Berkley University California]
> http://inst.eecs.berkeley.edu [specific page for this person deleted by Kitty]
> Please don't send me attachment files.
> Please include a meaningful subject in your email
> Visualize that the smoke of cigarettes is unpleasant to other people.
> Visualize that peoples' civic duties do NOT include having to breathe the
> smoke from cigarettes.
> Visualize that astrologers, fortune tellers, tarot card readers,
> psychics and palm readers are Crooks, Fools or Both.
> Visualize using the Metric System.
> Visualize that Skepticism is a virtue and that faith is NOT.
Your "Visualize" lines demonstrate some reasoned thinking on certain subjects -
there is, however, much more to the one about "civic duties" and smoking than
that snippet even attempts to cover. If you are interested in the foundational
principles of liberty (including those related to that snippet), see
**Kitty Antonik Wakfer
MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting
I received no response to my reply to this person's complaint. BTW s/he isn't
the first person with "suggestions" of how Paul and I should do things
differently on our websites, but none of these individuals have ever offered to
provide any of their time for assistance.
If some truly programming knowledgeable person(s) offered to do coding for us
that would support the type of information on both SelfSIP.org and MoreLife and
that meets our desires for presentation and ease of maintenance without using
In the meantime - which could be quite awhile - I hope that having the notice
SelfSIP.org and MoreLife.org **Kitty]
I'll be continuing to explore the site, so if I find anymore links that are not
working I'll be sure to let you know.
[By all means please do, since periodically another site will change their
coding for a page or simply eliminate content. In either case the link will no
longer work and I don't know it unless I happen to check or someone writes me.
So I do appreciate being told that a link is not working. **Kitty]
Also, Kitty, I'm still planning to respond to the Candida posting on morelife
since I have more news (although, not much more success).
[Please do. I hope that you have updated the Nurse Practitioner you used. If she
is serious about her profession she will be interested in helping you solve the
problem. If she is not, then you might want to find a replacement. Either way, I
hope you will continue to do your own research on the subject. **Kitty]
It may take me a little while as I have been busy recently with much
[Since happiness is the purpose of each individual's life, self-exploration is
part of the process for determining how to go about optimally increasing it. The
fact that you are doing self-exploration is commendable. Writing one's thoughts
can be a very beneficial method for exploring one's self, also referred to as
introspection. If you'd like to share what you discover or just bounce some
ideas off of us, please feel free to make a post. It is likely than many others
will benefit from your experience.
I have used Kitty Reflects in this manner, although I've been so busy with
topic-specific articles in the past year (as well as numerous other tasks) that
until recently I hadn't made an entry there in many months. I do have another
that I'll upload soon that is along the line of self-exploration. **Kitty]
"talk" to you soon,
[Looking forward to it ;>) **Kitty]
[Based on correspondence with you here at MoreLife Yahoo in previous years,
Marc, I am going to assume that you are interested in increasing your libido,
rather than your testosterone per se. Yes, increasing testosterone may increase
libido, but it may also not do this and many people with rather low testosterone
can still have high libido. It would help if you would provide the values of
recent tests for free and bound testosterone and for estradiol and sex hormone
binding globulin, if you have them. --Paul]
[I have a bit low testosterone for a male of my age according to my blood test
results earlier this year, yet I have very high libido -°Olafur]
[Later note: Mark has since sent me his test results. My opinion of them is that
they verify that low testosterone is not the major source of his problem
(although more would likely help). --Paul]
Among the dietary supplements that might help to keep T up as the
years go by, I know of :
ZMA : it seems this one would bring T up if low to begin with, or if
you will, if one is zinc deficient. But there's no way this will
boost Testosterone above physiological levels--anyway I have no use
for supraphysiological levels, as too much of anything isn't good,
just like not enough is.
[I was aware of the ZMA formula, which is basically a patented formula
containing a combination of zinc and magnesium and pyridoxine, but I have never
seen any research on that particular formula and did not find any doing a search
on pubmed. Also a search on pubmed for "zinc magnesium testosterone" yields only
a few hits non of which involves the effects of zinc in combination with
magnesium on testosterone levels. However there are some studies that suggest
zinc may help increase testosterone levels although as you state it probably
only does so in those who are deficient in it (PMID: 16648790, 15054912).
[I think zinc is generally more beneficial for sperm health and fertility than
it is for testosterone or libido (other than it also being good for general
health and vitality). --Paul]
Tribulus Terrestris : The only study I know of done on this one
which may have some value (and it's sketchy because the Bulgarian
manufaturer of Tribestan conducted the study back then--a vested
interest is suspected here. I've heard of one anecdotal account from
one of the poster at :http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/ who told
me he got on Tribestan after a steroid cycle, and his LH/FSH got so
high that it got his PCP concerned, and he sent him to have an MRI
done--all normalized after he stopped taking Tribulus.
[The evidence for TT as a testosterone enhancer appears to be pretty weak. F.ex.
in PMID: 15994038, the most recent study I found on the effect of TT
supplementation on testosterone levels, TT supplementation had no significant
effect on testosterone levels in young men. -°Olafur]
Tribulus Terrestris has other health benefits other than it'S
alleged Testosterone boosting abilities--I won't mention those here,
as it would be off topic, and Paul knows very well what are the
other benefits I'm talking about here.
[Actually since I take TT it would only be off the topic of this particular
post. However, I am not sure to which other health benefits you are referring,
so you should definitely list what you think they are. --Paul]
DHEA : While DHEA may have some sexual benefit, namely increasing
libido. In males it's rate of conversion to Testosterone appears to
be low, and not much benefit towards this end.
[A recent study (PMID: 16487434) posted on the newsgroup sci.life-extension
found that for 24 men aged 58-68 giving 50 mg of DHEA at bedtime raised their
testosterone by 33.3%. Most people have been suggesting that DHEA is best taken
in the AM (and that is what I have been doing), but I have therefore recently
changed it to the PM. You might consider that also, although 50 mg is likely too
high a dosage at your age and you might be better taking only 25 mg. I will
likely also be changing my pregnenolone to the evening also, but I first want to
try the DHEA alone to see if it has any negative effects on my sleep. --Paul]
Eurycoma Longifolia Jack : The latest I read about this one is that
it won't boost Testosterone above physiological values, however it
appears it can keep it up, or bring it up if low to begin with. The
German journalist Serge Kreutz appears to be big on this herb.
Allow me to paste a quote from :
''Unfortunately, there are very few specific feeding studies in
athletes or dieters – which are perhaps the key customers for
eurycoma-based products. We are aware of only 2 US-based research
trials of eurycoma in endurance athletes (in mountain bikers,
presented at the International Society of Sports Nutrition, ISSN,
Annual Scientific Meeting in 2006) and dieters (in moderately
overweight subjects, presented at the North American Association for
the Study of Obesity, NASSO, in 2006). These studies used 50-100mg
of eurycoma and found a maintenance of normal testosterone levels in
the supplemented dieters (compared to a typical drop in testosterone
among non-supplemented dieters) and the supplemented mountain bikers
(compared to a typical drop in non-supplemented riders).''
Testofen : With regards to this one, I've found this link from the
This compound seems promising, at least from what little info I've
read until now.
There's also Chasteberry who's of benefit too--here's a quote from
Supplement wathc :
''Chasteberry (Vitex agnus cactus) may help normalize hormonal
balance (testosterone, estrogen, prolactin) in both men and women –
an effect which may lead to increased erectile function and sexual
Now it may look as though I already know much about the above query,
however I wanted to submit this info to Paul's scrutiny--when Paul
has reviewed this post, I'll know that whatever substance(s) comes
out as being useful towards the end of this post's query is of
value. In other words, I don't want to spend money on worthless
If I have made oblivious omission of natural substances with the
power to help keep T up, then I'd like Paul to mention them.
34 years old
[Mark, you have done a good job in researching this subject, far better than
when you first corresponded with me several years ago and I commend you for the
positive change and progress you are making. Since there has not been a great
deal of research about whether or not particular supplements increase
testosterone and some things may work for some and not for others, I think that
it is probably best to try all of those that you have listed. Remember that
there is a major difference between libido, erectile function, sexual
performance and fertility, so supplements that affect one may not affect
another. One that you did not mention which has some proponents is chrysin,
which apparently has some aromatase inhibiting properties.
In addition, you should be aware that the major driver of libido is not
testosterone directly but instead its metabolite dihydrotestosterone (DHT) which
from the tests that you sent is definitely low and may be the major factor
behind your low libido. While raising testosterone should also raise DHT, there
may be other reasons why your DHT is low even though your testosterone is only
slightly low. Are you taking anything that would be an androgen-5
alpha-reductase inhibitor, such as something for balding or for prostate health.
If so, then you might try temporarily terminating usage of these to see if that
helps and then if it does, do more research in that area and enable yourself to
make a decision on the best overall strategy since they are in some conflict
with one another. --Paul]
[This message was delayed due to our preparation for, drive to and set up time
in Arizona. **Kitty]
> [Marc, I am going to assume that you are interested in increasing your
> libido, rather than your testosterone per se --Paul]
Yes and no--yes I'm interested in increasing my sex drive, however
I'm also interested in enhancing my Total Testosterone levels, Free
Testosterone levels and DHT. A retired endocrinologist friend of mine
clearly told me that my Total Testosterone although normal, wasn't
optimal for my age group--he said that it should be midrange, or
[What you and most other people (apparently even including this endocrinologist)
do not seem to realize is that there is no definition of "optimal" for almost
any measurement of any physiological parameter (any sign) of the human body. A
level of one parameter that is healthy for one person may be unhealthy for
another who has different genes producing different enzyme alleles with
different reaction times, and vice verse for some other parameter. Therefore it
is a mistake to attempt to make the levels of all one's parameters be at mid
range on the normal distribution for humans of one's age. The correct approach
is to attempt to adjust those parameters which are related to symptoms (feelings
and functions of one's body) that one wishes to alter. Although this sounds a
little like I am saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it", there is a subtle
difference which is related to the fact that all humans are breaking down
constantly as time passes and so that constantly accumulating breakage needs to
also be constantly fixed to prevent its accumulation or at least reduce the rate
as much as possible. Changes in hormonal levels with age are merely the result
of such accumulating damage. Perhaps your testosterone levels are already close
to optimal for *you*. There really is no way to tell except by symptoms, one of
which is your libido. --Paul]
It's important that you know that I have no use for
surpraphysiological Testosterone levels--too much is just as harmful
as not enough as evidenced by this recent study :
My reasons (which are probably other's too) for wanting to keep both a
higher total and free testosterone levels include :
*nervous ssytem effects : depression (better moods)
*sexual enjoyment and function
* cardiovascular disease and metabolic syndrome
* musculoskeletal system : bone formation and bone resorption.
I'd like my total T to be roughly in the 800 range, or at least mid-
[The above are a good selection of the potential dysfunctions that relate to low
testosterone. However, what you have not stated (except for the first one) is
the evidence that you have for such dysfunctions. So let me ask specifically:
1) What nervous system effects do you have that you feel cause you dysfunction
and that you would like to change? Specifically, are you hyperactive and often
unable to focus? Do you get depressed more than normal? And if so in what ways?
In answering this, take into account that current society is a highly complex,
often very reasonably an extremely frustrating environment and that there is
never enough time to do all that one would like to be able to do.
2) Do you have less sexual desire, functionality and enjoyment than you would
like to have? In answering this take into account that time is a limited
resource and that sexual activity necessarily takes time away from other
3) Do you have any indication of either cardiovascular disease or metabolic
syndrome? For the first, regular BP and heart rate measurements basal (before
getting up upon awakening), before and right after exercise will give an
indication and if you want more information you can get a tread mill stress test
or an arterial echogram.
WRT metabolic syndrome such questions would be: Are you overweight? What is your
waist measurement? Do you suffer from fatigue? And related tests you could take
would be measurements of fasting and postprandial blood glucose and insulin,
urinalysis and a glucose/insulin tolerance test.
[Regarding Metabolic Syndrome X, the JAMA has a patient information webpage on
the subject - http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/295/7/850 Glaringly
missing under prevention, is maintaining a lean body. While losing weight is at
the top of the list for treatment, no specific advice is given to even be below
a certain BMI or have a body fat percentage below a given level. Exercising
regularly and eating a healthful balanced diet is not sufficient guidance.
4) Do you have any evidence of weak or otherwise dysfunctional bones? Have you
ever broken a bone or broken one recently? You could also get a comprehensive
bone density test. Bear in mind that thin people often have reduced bone density
and this is not anything negative (unless you are planning to use your bones as
weapons or levers), since a low body weight needs less bone strength to support
>[My opinion of them is that they verify that low testosterone is not
> the major source of his problem (although more would likely help).--Paul]
I agree with you--low testosterone definately is one player in the
sex drive department, but absolutely not the only one. I also agree
that low T isn't the major issue with me. I highly suspect, as do many
M.D.'s I've seen until now, that brain chemistry plays more into it
than does the hormone connection. I'm interested in finding the common
link between : St-John's wort, theanine, grape seed extract, valerian,
zinc and mangesium--to the best of my knowledge these last all have a
soothing effect on the nervous system (whether CNS (central nervous
system) or ANS (autonomic nervous system) through the CNS,since both
are obviously interconnected. Dr. Kevin Pezzi told me that the common
link is that they all work on Dopamine--even Valerian he said. However
he didn't provide the study he found in which it's found valerian
affect some dopamine receptor subtype. I mention those subtances as
they all positively affect my libido.
[Compounds from valerian root have been shown to bind to melatonin and serotonin
receptor subtypes but in contrast to what your doctor hypothesized they do not
appear to bind to dopamine receptors (PMID: 15636177, PMID: 15921820). -°Olafur]
>[The evidence for TT as a testosterone enhancer appears to be pretty
> weak. F.ex. in PMID: 15994038, the most recent study I found on the
> effect of TT supplementation on testosterone levels, TT
> supplementation had no significant effect on testosterone levels in
> young men. -°Olafur]
it seems that in some men with low T, tribulus can increase
Testosterone to some extent--definately not above range though. So far
the strongest evidence for TT is that protodioscin, the active
ingredient found in TT converts to DHEA-- PMID: 10849504
Now it seems TT may have some negative side effects like : increased
kidney stones formation, though I couldn't find any Pubmed evidence
for this adverse claim. Come to think of it, do you know of any
significant side effect of TT that would cause one to wish to avoid
[Other than the reduction of monetary assets and available time from purchasing
and using it, no. --Paul]
>[Actually since I take TT it would only be off the topic of this
> particular post. However, I am not sure to which other health benefits
> you are referring, so you should definitely list what you think they
[Marc, you deleted your own text which stated that there are some other benefits
of TT (which you did not mention because you thought they would be off topic).
And you also ignored my request that you list these other benefits so they could
be analyzed. --Paul]
What do you use TT for Paul?
[For the possible chance that it will increase my testosterone since I have the
clearly abnormal dysfunction of having only one testicle to produce my
testosterone. (My right testicle was congenitally inadequately attached and
suffered torsion of its blood supply during waking up one morning when I was 30.
Before I knew what was happening and could get help, its cells were dead from
hypoxia. It then had to be removed in a minor operation.) I have seen no
evidence that TT is having any effect, and would not continue using it if I had
to pay for it. Actually Kitty also takes it since some testosterone is also good
for a postmenopausal woman although she has never had a problem with libido.
>[A recent study (PMID: 16487434) posted on the newsgroup sci.life-
> extension found that for 24 men aged 58-68 giving 50 mg of DHEA at
> bedtime raised their testosterone by 33.3%. Most people have been
> suggesting that DHEA is best taken in the AM (and that is what I have
> been doing), but I have therefore recently changed it to the PM. You
> might consider that also, although 50 mg is likely too high a dosage
> at your age and you might be better taking only 25 mg. I will likely
> also be changing my pregnenolone to the evening also, but I first want
> to try the DHEA alone to see if it has any negative effects on my
> sleep. --Paul]
isn't taking exogenous DHEA going to result in my body
downregulating it's own DHEA production ?
[Not necessarily, but even if it does, so what? The blood DHEA or DHEA-S level
and any increase in testosterone that results is what you are after and they can
be measured and monitored. Only if the exogenous DHEA were not the exact same
chemical would any reduction of the body's output matter. The only thing that
might happen is since the adrenal glands output of DHEA might be downregulated,
its output capacity might be directed to increasing some other hormones such as
progesterone and cortisol. That is why all related hormones should be monitored
whenever one is taking any exogenous ones. --Paul]
Also, since the active
constituent in TT converts to DHEA, wouldn't it be useful to take TT
before going to bed too ? Of course, they tested DHEA, and not TT, but
the two seems to at least correlate on one point, namely the DHEA
[Yes, that seems logical. I will try taking TT at night too, again unless it
negatively affects my sleep. --Paul]
Can anyone recommend a testing lab to determine the purity of a
[Testing labs are only set up to test amounts of pure substances. Thus, if a
supplement is stated to contain several chemicals, each would need to be tested
separately (which increases the cost of testing). In addition, not all labs are
set up to test all substances. Some substances require more uncommon methods of
testing. If the substance is uncommon, they may not have or be able to find the
"standard" for it and you may even need to help them out with that. In addition,
there is no such thing as general impurity testing. Instead these also have to
done for specific substances, so when asking for such testing one needs to
supply the names of the particularly impurities about which one is concerned.
For a start one should always consult Consumer Lab to see if the supplement has
already been tested by them. If not, then a lab that I have used is American
Analytical Chemistry Laboratories Corp - http://aaclabs.com (ask for Charlie
Li). There are many others which can be found by searching, but this is the only
one that I have used and can therefore recommend. They can do many kinds of
testing on the same substance and some require more that one kind of test to be
certain of its identity (eg. sterioisomers). Each such test is priced
Finally, insist that you be sent all raw test results and data so that you can
examine them and better understand what has been determined. If you do not
specifically request this, then they will only send you a very general summary
report of their results. --Paul]
[Dave Saum has fulfilled our identification requirements by virtue of the fact
that he uses his name in his email address, has an identifiable photo on his
Yahoo ID (since at least 2004) and provides a specific location. We have no
reason to believe he is not who he represents himself to be.
Dave, you are welcome to tell us a bit more about yourself, including what
mountains you are in and the ruins in the background in that photo. Someplace in
the Andes? **Kitty]
Nuture Podcast discusses these findings with Sirtris Pharmaceuticals,
who conducted the study.
[Thanks, Bob, for letting us and readers know about this. Nature's audio feature
is not limited to iPod users; any mp3 or mp4 player on one's computer will work.
We used Lsongs from our Linspire (Linux) browser, but we could also have used
Kplayer or RealPlayer (those with Netscape or IExplorer can use any of the major
According to Nature at the page for the link above, the transcripts of archived
programs are available. This one which contains the approximately 5 minute
interview with David Sinclair (5 papers in PubMed on resveratrol) is the first
on the program which contains several on other subjects (we listened only to
it). Next week it will also be available as a text (html) file also. The entire
archive listing for these weekly science news/interview programs is available -
Thanks again, Bob, for letting everyone know about this feature. **Kitty]
[As usual, particularly with scientists who have a financial stake in a company
developing patentable products, Sinclair dismisses the notion of supplementing
with resveratrol, and instead wants people to wait for the development of a
patentable synthetic analog of resveratrol. Such an analog (which may or may not
be as safe and effective) will be many years at extreme cost satisfying
government regulators before it can be marketed and then will only be able to be
marketed for use against defined diseases (of which general aging dysfunction is
currently not one) for which it has been approved by those regulators. This kind
of essentially dishonest behavior from such scientists is very common in the
current social environment where most people think that it is in their best
interest to try to get something for nothing, rather than to pay value for value
for what benefits them. I and Kitty have been taking resveratrol for sometime
now and will likely increase our dosages as a result of this new work, although
not likely until the lifespan increases for normally fed mice are actually
determined. It is not clear whether this latest study finds an increase in
health and lifespan for mice fed a healthy standard diet or merely for mice fed
a diet more like the poor standard American diet (SAD), referred to in the
interview as a "MacDonald's diet". If only the latter, then this result is not
yet really a true lifespan increase result.
Here are a few other links to articles about the same news item.
[Here is the abstract copied from Nature, along with the link to it:
Nature advance online publication 1 November 2006
Resveratrol improves health and survival of mice on a high-calorie diet
Joseph A. Baur1, Kevin J. Pearson, Nathan L. Price, Hamish A. Jamieson, Carles
Lerin, Avash Kalra, Vinayakumar V. Prabhu, Joanne S. Allard, Guillermo
Lopez-Lluch, Kaitlyn Lewis, Paul J. Pistell, Suresh Poosala, Kevin G. Becker,
Olivier Boss, Dana Gwinn, Mingyi Wang, Sharan Ramaswamy, Kenneth W. Fishbein,
Richard G. Spencer, Edward G. Lakatta, David Le Couteur, Reuben J. Shaw11,
Placido Navas, Pere Puigserver, Donald K. Ingram, Rafael de Cabo and David A.
Resveratrol (3,5,4'-trihydroxystilbene) extends the lifespan of diverse species
including Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Caenorhabditis elegans and Drosophila
melanogaster. In these organisms, lifespan extension is dependent on Sir2, a
conserved deacetylase proposed to underlie the beneficial effects of caloric
restriction. Here we show that resveratrol shifts the physiology of middle-aged
mice on a high-calorie diet towards that of mice on a standard diet and
significantly increases their survival. Resveratrol produces changes associated
with longer lifespan, including increased insulin sensitivity, reduced
insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-I) levels, increased AMP-activated protein
kinase (AMPK) and peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-gamma coactivator
1alpha (PGC-1alpha) activity, increased mitochondrial number, and improved motor
function. Parametric analysis of gene set enrichment revealed that resveratrol
opposed the effects of the high-calorie diet in 144 out of 153 significantly
altered pathways. These data show that improving general health in mammals using
small molecules is an attainable goal, and point to new approaches for treating
obesity-related disorders and diseases of ageing.
The effects of resveratrol supplementation mentioned in the abstract are very
intriguing. However the abstract does not make clear any more than the news
reports whether any beneficial effect was found from resveratrol supplementation
on mice fed a healthy standard diet. In fact it appears that they did not test
the effect of resveratrol supplementation on mice on healthy diets but only on
mice on a high calorie diet. Clicking on the second link Paul gave above and
scrolling down a bit one can see a figure on the left which shows survival
curves for three groups of mice. Mice on a high calorie diet, mice on a high
calorie diet plus resveratrol, and mice on a standard diet. This strongly
indicates they did not test resveratrol supplementation on mice on a standard
diet. I would have to see the full text article to be sure though. Unfortunately
while I do have online access to full text articles published by Nature there is
a 365 days embargo on the online coverage of the articles so I won't be able to
access it until a year from now.
I personally do not take resveratrol at this time and have not changed my mind
as a result of this new research. I don't consider the potential benefits worth
the cost for me as evidence for benefits in those eating a healthy diet is still
--- In email@example.com, "Robert Kemmler" <kemmler@...> wrote:
> Nuture Podcast discusses these findings with Sirtris Pharmaceuticals,
> who conducted the study.
> [Here is the abstract copied from Nature, along with the link to it:
> Nature advance online publication 1 November 2006
> Resveratrol improves health and survival of mice on a high-calorie diet
>.. This strongly indicates they did not test resveratrol
> supplementation on mice on a standard diet. I would have to see the
> full text article to be sure though. Unfortunately while I do have
> online access to full text articles published by Nature there is a 365
> days embargo on the online coverage of the articles so I won't be able
> to access it until a year from now.
Thanks to Larry Broering for sending the .pdf file of the full Nature
article. Paul read it and has posted a review in the thread, "Wine
extract keeps mice fat and healthy" at sci.life-extension newsgroup.
It can be read by those with a newsreader and subscribed to
sci.life-extension or via Google Groups at
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Kitty Antonik Wakfer" <kitty@...> wrote:
> Thanks to Larry Broering for sending the .pdf file of the full Nature
> article. Paul read it and has posted a review in the thread, "Wine
> extract keeps mice fat and healthy" at sci.life-extension newsgroup.
> It can be read by those with a newsreader and subscribed to
> sci.life-extension or via Google Groups at
Unfortunately the table Paul created from the paper did not format
well in Google Group's archive of sci.life-extension newsgroup.
Therefore we've recreated the table here for easier reading.
Parameter_____________________ SD__________ HC _________ HCR __ Fed/Fasted
Free fatty acids (mequiv.) 0.27 (0.04) 0.59 (0.06) 0.53 (0.03) Fed
___________________________ 0.83 (0.10) 0.45 (0.20) 0.54 (0.05) Fasted
Triglycerides (mg/d) _______ 76.6 (6.8) __81.4 (6.6) 88.2 (10.8) Fasted
Cholesterol (mg/dl) _________ 135 (7) _____183 (20) __ 204 (16) _ Fasted
Insulin (ng/ml) ___________ 1.77 (0.64) 9.21 (1.95) 2.46 (0.47) Fed
___________________________ 0.73 (0.14) 2.70 (0.36) 1.06 (0.30) Fasted
Glucose (mg/dl)____________ 129.0 (5.4) 118.3 (4.7) 114.8 (6.3) Fed
____________________________ 94.5 (3.3) 125.3 (11.6) 85.6 (10.3) Fasted
IGF-I (ng/ml) ______________ 346 (40) ___ 534 (12) ___ 482 (21) _ Fed
____________________________ 625 (33) ___ 999 (102) __ 929 (81) _ Fasted
IGFBP-1 (AU) _______________ 1.0 (0.3) __ 1.7 (0.3) __ 1.7 (1.0) Fed
____________________________ 1.0 (0.2) __ 0.5 (0.3) __ 0.3 (0.1) Fasted
IGFBP-2 (AU) _______________ 1.0 (0.2) __ 0.7 (0.04) _ 0.9 (0.1) Fasted
Leptin (ng/ml) _____________ 2.0 (1.1) __ 21.6 (7.2) _ 11.6 (6.5) Fasted
Adiponectin (mg/ml) _______ 12.1 (1.6) __ 9.5 (0.5) ___ 9.0 (0.8) Fed
Amylase (U/l) _____________ 2,060 (150) 2,960 (320) 2,190 (230) Fasted
Ala aminotransferase (U/l) _ 347 (119) ___ 390 (61) ___ 446 (88) Fasted
Asp aminotransferase (U/l) __ 448 (85) ___ 425 (90) ___ 512 (46) Fasted
Creatine phosphokinase (U/l) 4,260 (1820) 2,010 (810) 2,520 (680) Fasted
Lactate dehydrogenase (U/l) 1,530 (240) 1,610 (170) 2,020 (180) Fasted
Alkaline phosphatase (U/l)___ 43.8 (3.4) _ 44.6 (6.0) 34.2 (1.4) Fasted
Bilirubin (mg/dl)___________ 0.16 (0.02) 0.10 (0.03) 0.16 (0.02) Fasted
Albumin (g/dl)______________ 2.78 (0.16) 2.88 (0.19) 2.66 (0.14) Fasted
Creatinine (mg/dl) _________ 0.54 (0.02) 0.48 (0.04) 0.46 (0.04) Fasted
Cyclo-oxygenase (liver, AU/mg) 1.00 (0.14) 0.80 (0.11) 0.83 (0.11) Fed
Citrate synthase (liver, AU/mg) 141 (14) _ 128 (21) ___ 138 (11) _ Fed
Body temperature (uC) _____ 34.71 (0.14) 35.52 (0.17) 35.57 (0.15) Fed
In addition, all the supplementary information to the study is available online
at Nature at:
--- In email@example.com, "Erich Brueschke"
> Hi Kitty:
> I am not sure is this is the proper place to send this email, but I
> was reading morelife.org and came across:
> "extrusions from the first pressing of fresh hemp seeds. This is
> obtained from Hempola and is primarily sold as animal snacks"
<snip by Kitty of Erich's unsuccessful attempts to obtain hemp extrusions>
> Oh well, I guess shelled hemp seeds will have to do.
> Erich Brueschke
<snip of historical tellings of our introduction to "hemp turds">....
> We have used at this time probably 80% of that large purchase and
> plan to visit Hempola again in September or October to buy the same
> amount. I will contact them first to make sure that they can still
> supply us with this quantity. If they have a large calling for the
> hemp flour, they may retain more of the extrusions for further
> siftings and have less to sell as "animal treats". BTW, the clerk
> acknowledged eating them himself and was not surprised that we found
> them good with dried fruits, especially prunes.
> Erich, I'll send you a small amount of the extrusions (Paul and I
> personally refer to them as "hemp turds" ;) to see if you like them.
> If you do, we can then make arrangements for a larger quantity.
It was after the beginning of October and I still hadn't found a hemp
supplier (in Canada) that would sell the extrusions (hemp seedcake). I
had received negative responses from all those I contacted, chosen
because they were more than simply a retailer. Kenex, once a major
hemp refiner in Ontario was no longer in business despite a website
still online. Two others, like Hempola, were using all their
extrusions for flour and protein powder. And then there was Roger
Snow of Rocky Mountain Grain Products who wrote me:
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: Inquiry for Hemp Pressings or Extrusions
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:31:07 -0600
From: Roger <snowrk@...>
To: 'Kitty Antonik Wakfer' <kitty@...>
I do not consider it ethical to sell extrusions for human consumption.
They are about half indigestible shell material. The health benefits
experienced by those who use shelled hemp seeds--Hemp Hearts--to
change their diets is profound and amazing. The benefits available
from using the extrusions would be insignificant in comparison. I
will include an information package below which is a summary of our
experience with over 100,000 older customers who came to us with
typical late onset health problems. Perhaps you will understand why I
do not sell inferior hemp products.
-----remainder of message not included--------
The remainder of the email was a long sales pitch for "HEMP
HEARTS--NATURES POWER FOOD from ROCKY MOUNTAIN GRAIN PRODUCTS". In
between some accurate statements about hemp were many that are
misleading, contributing to confusion by nutritionally ignorant
readers. He repeatedly totally condemned the ingestion of sugar and
starch while ignoring the fact that the hemp nut (shelled hemp seed)
is itself 12% carbohydrate (79% dietary fiber and 3% sugar) -
Since Roger Snow sells his Hemp Hearts direct for CDN$10/lb (when
purchasing 9 1-pound containers) and the same product goes for CDN$14
to 16/lb in stores and on other websites, he has little interest in
selling a product which has much less glamor and high price potential.
His clearly negative assertion about the extrusions being "half
indigestible shell material" demonstrates either his ignorance about
the value of fiber in the human diet or his expectation that I was as
ignorant as are possibly some of his customers. And to write "I do not
consider it ethical to sell extrusions for human consumption" is
simply ludicrous since they are the starting point for all hemp flour
and protein powder products.
[In addition to what Kitty has pointed out, it would be far healthier to eat a
combination of hemp extrusions and fish oil, than to eat the whole hemp seeds
(which contain only alpha linolenic acid, the poorer form of omega-3. --Paul]
I had almost given up hope of being able to replenish our exhausted
Ontario (and very low Arizona) supply of hemp extrusions when I came
across a Manitoba company which sells hemp meal in extruded form in
bulk (minimum 50 pounds). Working quickly with their representative by
email we were able to have one 50-pound bag mailed to our postal box
via Canada Post, arriving just 1 business day before our departure. It
was nip and tuck, since snow had started to fall in the Winnipeg area
when the Canada Post tracking service showed our package there for
sorting. For a couple days I had visions of the truck being held up
and the 50 pounds of hemp extrusions sitting in the Wilberforce post
office all winter until next April when we returned.
The 50 pound bag arrived in a box; the received extrusions look and
taste identical to those we had obtained from Hempola. We divided the
large quantity into airtight containers and brought a substantial
quantity with us to Arizona.
If there was a distributor who would sell this inexpensive and
versatile source of nutritious hemp seed in quantities that most
people can easily handle, I would just supply that URL as I did
earlier on our MoreLife More Diet Ideas page when we obtained it from
Hempola. Since currently there is not, for Erich (who btw emailed me
that he liked the sample and was interested in a larger quantity) and
other MoreLife Yahoo members (in the US and Canada only) who want to
add hemp seedcake/extrusions to their diet, we will sell it in 1-pound
quantities for US$4/lb plus shipping costs. We will only send
shipments out within the US while we are in the US (typically end of
October until end of April) and within Canada when we are in Ontario
(from late April until late October). We do not want to send hemp
across international borders and have to deal with Customs paper work,
although the US government is probably far worse regarding hemp
products than any other.
So I'll end this little update on our hemp "turds" by saying that it
was a delight to get the shipment in Ontario since we had been without
any there for several weeks. I added it to the trailmix I'd put
together a few days earlier - which we thoroughly enjoyed on the drive
- and to my muesli that I brought along for breakfast enroute. I can
relax now that our supply is assured for the foreseeable future. I'll
be updating the hemp section on the More Diet Ideas page soon.
I am so pleased you found a source finally.
I would like to obtain 10 pounds of the extrusions. I assume they will keep for
a year in a tightly sealed old protein power container in the freezer
[We never stored any of our supply in the freezer, just tightly closed
containers out of the light. But doing so would be fine; we don't have enough
freezer space to consider doing this. Actually, the quantity we left in Ontario
is likely frozen now and in the dark constantly. There's very little water
content, so freezing won't have any deleterious effect. **Kitty]
that is acceptable, I guess I can make the value payment at your paypal
[I'll let you know by email how much the shipping costs will be. **Kitty]
If this is OK please let me know. There is no hurry as I know you probably
just got to Arizona, so let me know when you are ready for the transaction.
[We arrived here in Casa Grande about 1:30am Wednesday 10/25 after leaving
Harcourt Park about 4am on Monday. The trip was uneventful and actually quite
pleasant once we got past the Toronto early morning traffic. **Kitty]
Again thanks for being so persistent.
[Well we really wanted to have the extrusions ourselves for all the benefits I
(and Paul) mentioned earlier and at the website. Since you (and maybe other
MoreLife Yahoo members will too), find them of value, we'll be glad to supply
the hemp extrusions (Paul suggested maybe I shouldn't keep referring to them
publicly as "hemp turds") as long as we can maintain a supply. We can only take
a very few 10 pound orders with what we brought. However, if we get a lot of
takers, our source says they have had no trouble shipping to the US so we might
go ahead and get more if needed. **Kitty]
Kitty asked If I would add a perspective. I have 2 properties in
Belize, one a house in a small town of 15,000
(http://www.kumquatcottage.com) and also a 93 acre piece of jungle.
In the jungle I have paths cut where I grow 60+ species of fruits (I
am farming this way to prevent damage to the ecosystem--instead of
the often used clear-cutting of several acres.)
I am planning to live there year round eventually, making money in
the US at the present.
A small country really changes your perspective on government
control. In a country the size of Massachusetts, but with a
population of only 275,000 (the size of Saint Paul where I reside in
Minnesota) the government is basically non-existent. It just can't
function on all the control levels that the US or Canada can. So
while some items might not be readily available, there aren't any
agencies that have time to be concerned with what I am consuming nor
how I am obtaining it (the exception is with marijuana and other
drugs that the US officials keep an eye on.)
[How exactly do US agencies interfere in any activities related to marijuana or
other US regulated chemicals by the residents of Belize? --Paul]
[This is interesting as here in Iceland which has just about the same population
(just over 300.000 residents) the governmental agents appear to have plenty of
time as they inspect nearly every single shipment of supplements I order.
[Good point, Olafur. I suspect the difference is because Iceland is much more
technologically and commercially advanced than Belize, and thus, has the money
to afford all this government. And unfortunately its citizens appear to want all
this government interference with their lives and are willing to pay for it. I
suspect that they want it because they have been brainwashed to want to be
"equal" with the citizens of the European Union. --Paul]
No one sends you a
income tax or property tax bill-- they don't have the money to do it
(while I voluntarily go to the capitol of Belmopan to pay mine every
[Is this a property or income tax that you pay voluntarily? In either case why
do you pay it? What services are you getting for this payment that you could not
get otherwise in some other manner? --Paul]
[Don't you own the property on which your house resides and didn't you pay the
full price for it when you bought it? If so then why on earth would you want to
pay anyone for being there, it's your property right? You're not renting it are
[Olafur, you owe us all an explanation of how government in Iceland gets its
money for all the services it provides to various Icelandic citizens. I know
there is a large VAT (value added tax) but is there not also tax on property
including real estate owned which pays for the city services (police, utilities,
garbage, etc - not that this should be provided by taxes, but I assume it is)?
What government taxes do your parents pay on the apartment/condominium they own?
In addition to property taxes, what income taxes do they and you pay? Does your
tuition at school fully pay the cost of your schooling? (Olafur is bogged down
with studies right now, so he'll have to respond in a follow-up.)
Governments get their money from the people who live and visit or do business
within their geographical boundaries - or in the case of the US, also citizens
living elsewhere; property taxes is one of the many schemes they use. **Kitty]
many of my neighbors say they haven't kept up with taxes in
years.) The funny part is that people have built up more of an
honor system than I have ever seen anywhere else.
[I suspect this is a result of smallness, lack of anonymity and everyone easily
knowing everyone else. This kind of atmosphere is also extant in small towns in
the US and Canada, and it used to be even more often found before the enormous
ability to travel far and communicate indirectly came about. In my childhood
most people in a small town knew of or about each other and all interacted as
"Well, I pay my
taxes because I agreed to, and they need that money to pay teachers
and other workers."
[Is this quote an example from someone else of the reason s/he pays taxes, ie.
of this "honor system" as it relates to paying taxes? If so to whom and in what
way did this person "agree" to pay taxes. Perhaps you did as a condition of
being allowed to live there. --Paul]
Of course everyone is related to everyone else
so that teacher or policeman is your cousin's wife's brother.
[The teachers, police and other government workers should be paid for services
by those people who use their services or want them to be available in case they
are needed, just as with any other purchase of a product or service in the
marketplace, rather than simply because the money is needed by those types of
service people. --Paul]
I didn't invest in Belize with the notion that it was the best place
for self-government, and perhaps it is not. But I am amazed at the
ways that everyone polices themselves and the social networks built
up everyone "owing each other favors" rather than paying money for
[This barter arrangement is totally reasonable so long as the "favors" are
clear, are as evaluated by the person owed and are eventually paid. They are no
different than work done or property sold with delayed payment whether in money
or in equivalent services or property as evaluated by the person owed and
clearly specified up front. If there is no clarity and full eventual payment,
then this system can be every bit as frustrating and divisive to personal good
will as is any money based system. The fact that the people there appear to
"police" themselves, ie, they act responsibly to actually make the payments of
the "favors" is the key ingredient to make such a system work well. --Paul]
It has certainly made me rethink the the false sense
of security and safety that citizens of the US have.
[I don't see how this statement follows from the previous ones. --Paul]
As for life extension chemicals, perhaps I will have to import them,
or perhaps I will go into business and start a lab. Don't know
yet. But the government "approval" would be the least worry:
everything would be about capital and whether there is a market for
[Thanks, Preston, for giving us some information about Belize and what you find
sufficiently worthwhile enough to want to live there. Of course as you can see,
there are questions we 3 hope you will answer. **Kitty]
About an hour before finishing dialysis on Thursday 2 November, Wes
was feeling dizzy and had been feeling nauseous. To complicate
matters, he also wished to visit the bathroom. Before disconnecting
him, the nurse took his blood pressure, which was about 90 systolic
lying down. She ran back all his blood to him and had him get up
slowly. The dialysis nurse was concerned enough to have him taken by
ambulance to Geelong Hospital Emergency after completing dialysis.
The ambulance people found his pulse was 160. At Emergency, I was
allowed to visit him after a while. I noted from the monitor that his
systolic BP was now 77 lying down. He also had tachycardia. The
renal registrar visited him and suggested he stay in hospital
overnight, which Wes did not want to do. They agreed that if an hour
later the BP had not improved, he would stay overnight. The renal
registrar thought autonomic neuropathy might be the cause.
Wes was kept on the Emergency trolley until 5 am the next morning, when
a bed was available in the Renal Ward. He had not slept a wink and
the blood pressure cuff was left on all night. He has a gigantic
bruise from this.
[If blood pressure is to be taken frequently then it is normal to leave the cuff
in place. However, since it is normally deflated, this should not normally cause
any bruise. I can think of only three explanations for this - either Wes bruises
very easily, the cuff was put on too tight or it tightened as his blood pressure
rose back to normal (or maybe any two or all three of those). --Paul]
In the morning, the blood pressure was again normal
and he was allowed to go home.
We wondered why this had happened, as it never has before. Wes
wondered whether I had given him anything new in supplements. I had -
bilberry. I have been giving him this for about 10 days. In the
process, I had dropped off the R-ALA, so that there were not too many
capsules to take. Maybe the R-ALA was exerting a protective effect
which was lost when I stopped giving it. In any case, I have resumed
giving him 150mg of R-ALA (mito Gold) twice daily and the bilberry
whenever it can comfortably be given. - Jessie Neagle
[I think it is unlikely that either the addition of bilberry or the lack of
R-ALA would cause this dialysis hypotension. For one thing, as I recall Wes had
dialysis long before he even began taking R-ALA and did not get hypotensive at
that time. --Paul]
[This episode was, I'm sure, quite a disturbing one for Wes and you. Wes is not
new to hemodialysis (and I'm assuming this is the same facility he has been
using for quite some time), so the procedure for him is probably pretty much
routine. Even so, this response to a question at Medscape regarding hemodialysis
induced hypotension may provide new information for you:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/463204 (signin: KittyA; password: morelife)
While you don't mention that you and Wes wondered about anything other than any
new additions to or changes in his supplement regimen, there is an another area
to consider and investigate.
If what you relate had happened to someone very important to me under the same
circumstances as occurred with Wes, I would request a copy of all records at the
dialysis unit from the date of the occurrence and on the last previous dialysis
treatment. (In the US, such a request must be satisfied by the provider - a form
must be filled out and signed by the patient or approved representative - and
there may be a charge for copying.) Then I would look for anything that was done
differently between the two dialysis procedures - equipment, supplies,
medications, personnel etc. Something to keep in mind, though, is that if an
error was made - something not specifically ordered by the physician or part of
the established or modified (in writing) procedure (you should be able to obtain
a copy of this procedure) - you may not be able to detect any notable difference
that is suspect. Unfortunately, many errors in hospitals/clinics/doctor's
offices are not recorded and the patient or family never notified - - it is not
uncommon that no written record of them is even made, even that no one but the
person who made the error knows, especially if no immediate untoward effect is
You may find the Introduction and possibly the Discussion in this article in
Medscape interesting. "Disclosure of Medical Errors: What Factors Influence How
Patients Respond?" 07/17/2006 The frequency of errors and their current
disclosure is what I am drawing to your attention.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/540425 (signin: KittyA; password: morelife)
While this next article is geared towards Critical Care Unit nursing, the
problems related leading to errors are applicable to almost every other area of
health care provided in a hospital or clinic setting. "First, Do No Harm" 2005
Although I haven't fully read this next article, you may find it particularly
interesting since it is based on a 2001 study survey done in South Australia.
"Consumer Perceptions of Safety in Hospitals" 05/09/2006
There have also been Medscape reader polls regarding errors.
Here's one on causes:
On the likelihood of increased hospital reporting after a high-profile media
Views on impact of healthcare provider reporting of errors if legislation were
passed promoting sharing of information on medical errors without fear of
There are well over a thousand articles showing in a search on Medscape
addressing the subject of errors in diagnosis, procedures and medication. I
can't imagine a health practitioner who doesn't want to avoid an error. Everyone
involved will work diligently to mitigate the damage when one occurs, but there
are plenty of times that the patient and family will never be told that an error
was actually made. **Kitty]
Below is a copy of an email I sent to Paul and Kitty:
Hi Paul and Kitty,
3 weeks ago I decided to measure my blood pressure and to do so not
only upon wakening as I've done many times before but also lying in
bed rather than sitting as I had always done previously. This was the
first time I took a set of measurements lying in bed upon wakening. I
did so after only having gotten out of bed just to urinate and have a
sip of water, then I lay back in bed with the meter, relaxed for a
short while and then took a few measurements. As expected the numbers
were a little bit lower than what I've been getting when I've measured
it sitting. In fact some of the numbers I got were so low that I don't
think I want my blood pressure any lower than that. The average of 4
measurements was 109/48 with a pulse of 65. Here are all the 4
Now I'm a little worried about my readings above as two of them had a
diastolic reading of 43, which is extremely low. Do you know how low
is too low when it comes to blood pressure? Obviously if it's too low
then you die. Just wondering if you've looked into this as I don't
really have the time nor interest to do so right now.
[External (non-invasive) blood pressure readings are not extremely accurate nor
exactly repeatable. It is very easy for the instrument to miss the exact point
at which to assess each level, since it relates to the pressure in the cuff
(which is slowly falling) at the time of the pressure wave from the heart. If
you could adjust the rate of pressure fall to make it slower, particular around
the pressure of the systolic diastolic interval then it would be more accurate.
As it is, plus or minus 10-15% is probably the norm. That is why your 4 readings
varied greatly and most likely only the average of them is close to correct.
[In the "old days" of manual blood pressure measurement with a stethoscope, it
was a learned technique to slowly let the the air out of the cuff so that the
reading would be more accurate - but not so slowly that it increased the local
pressure. (More sophisticated automatic equipment may have a rate adjustment
capability.) Also, one should not take several readings in the same location
within a very short period of time since this will raise the local pressure and
not reflect the actual systemic status. When repeat readings are necessary, they
should be done at least a couple of minutes apart. **Kitty]
However, even if your correct diastolic pressure were only 43, I don't think it
is a problem, given that it is not a sign of hemorrhaging (which is why low
blood pressure can kill you). Babies have such low diastolic pressures and the
average capillary pressure is only 17, so as long as your arterial pressure is
well above that, your tissue perfusion should be fine.
[One way to judge capillary fill is to apply pressure to a finger and toe nail.
Release the pressure quickly and watch for how long it takes the color to return
to the area under the nail. It should be very quickly. **Kitty]
Another thing to remember is that blood pressure is greatly affected by the
hydrostatic effects of the location of its measurement. The change is actually 1
point for every 13 mm or about 1/2 inch. The reason that it is measured in the
upper arm is because that is generally about the same level as the heart when
you are sitting or standing. If you measure it in your leg when standing it will
be much higher and if in your upper arm when raised above your heart level it
will be lower. Perhaps you were inadvertently raising your upper arm above your
heart when you took the measurement, maybe by lying on your side?
Kitty took my BP with me sitting here, first arm down at my side with cuff at
heart level as normal and got 92/58, then with my arm straight up and cuff at
about eye level and got 73/35. This effect of hydrostatic pressure makes the
actual venous pressure in the head usually negative (wrt atmospheric). If human
necks were a lot longer they could not adequately perfuse their brains. I expect
that really tall people with a large distance from heart to brain may always
have higher than average blood pressure. Giraffes have some special arrangements
for this purpose, but I don't remember what it is. --Paul]
On the other hand I am also very glad that my diastolic reading is so
low while my pulse pressure is pretty high indicating that I have
[Readers should note that this only *may* be the case for healthy, well
conditioned tall young men. Without an actual aortic BP reading there seems to
be no good way to tell if a high pulse pressure is indicative of elastic or
inelastic arteries. I had thought that for most people over 40 a higher pulse
pressure indicates that the arteries are not expanding sufficiently fast to take
the increased blood volume from the heart output, but now it appears that the
actual systolic pressure waveform has much less to do with flexibility and is
more related to varying cross-sections of the arteries through which the blood
is flowing. Only the average blood pressure (which is roughly DP-(SP-DP/3) -
weighted toward the diastolic because of the shape of the pressure curve) is
actually indicative of the inflexibility of the arteries. Furthermore, in a very
aerobically fit individual (Olympic cross country skiers for instance), the
heart output may be so large that the pulse pressure is high even though the
arteries are still highly flexible. In your case I suspect it must be the later,
but I would also question whether your BP meter is working properly (it may be
reducing the cuff pressure too fast or too slow to get good measurements). I
suggest that you go to a place where there is another BP meter for public use
and take your meter with you to compare results a few times interleaved.
The papers to which Olafur referred to in message #712 and which he just sent to
me do not give a sufficient explanation of any of this. For one thing they are
mostly epidemiological and provide absolutely no explanation for the blood
pressures shown by me and Kitty. Do our blood pressures indicate inelastic or
elastic arteries? If elastic (as I think) then why do we not have high brachial
amplification? How is a person of any age supposed to use BP readings from a
standard brachial cuff measurement (which is what all medical personnel
generally use) for any diagnostic purposes?
These are all questions which I now have, but also which I have no time to
attempt to answer. Since Olafur has brought forth the evidence (strictly data
about aortic vs brachial pressure) for this major diversion from previously
standard medical thinking about blood pressure, it will be up to him to provide
a more complete answer about how brachial BP measurements should be interpreted
with respect to health for people of all ages and sexes. --Paul]
My blood pressure appears to be excellent now. I
suspect this may be caused largely by all the supplements I'm taking.
Many of them are known ACE inhibitors and others probably also inhibit
ACE because many polyphenols have been shown to do so. Although most
of these supplements may have only mild effect the effect may be
adding up to a quite powerful ACE inhibiting effect particularly
combined with my polyphenol rich diet. BTW according to my recent
research on sRAGE this ACE inhibition could also be beneficial by
increasing sRAGE and decreasing RAGE.
[Yes, that is good to know since it should be helping me and Kitty also. --Paul]
The item below was extracted from Olafur's post regarding his blood
pressure and placed here where it properly belongs.
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Ólafur Páll Ólafsson <olafurpall@...>
> --- In email@example.com, Ólafur Páll Ólafsson
> <olafurpall@y...> wrote:
<snip by Kitty>
> I don't think Pomegranate juice is available here in Iceland. At
> least I haven't found it in the major stores here. The whole fruit
> on the other hand is available here and I'm going to buy some and
> see how it tastes. By the way I recently ordered some Pomegranate
> extract from NOW foods.
I also just switched to a new pomegranate extract. As I've reported on
the MoreLife Yahoo group I've been taking a pomegranate extract
because the juice is not available here in Iceland. The brand I was
previously taking was only standardized to ellagic acid which is
likely not the active compound responsible for the potent ACE
inhibiting effects of the juice. The extract I'm taking now on the
other hand is standardized to several components including
Anthocyanins and it is made from the whole fruit. It appears to be
very potent. Comparing the anthocyanin content and the ellagic acid
content of it (according to the certificate of analysis given for the
product on their website) to the anthocyanin and ellagic acid content
of a pomegranate juice used successfully in one scientific study, one
capsule equals about 200-400ml of juice. I have been taking 1 capsule
daily of this extract for a few months now. FYI here is a link to the
product I'm talking about (scroll down to see the certificate of
Ólafur Páll Ólafsson
[In a few days, LEF will have available several more products containing
pomegranate juice extract. When those are available and their descriptions are
online, I will make a comparison with what you currently take, post it here and
then order some extract products for myself (likely LEF in any case, since I get
them free and they are generally of good quality). --Paul]
<snip rest of previous message by Kitty>
Recent research suggests that once a week fasting plus
the lipid lowering drug acipimox can produce many of
the health benefits of calorie restriction (CR). See PUBMED:
15236765, 16973211, 15325580, 16874025, 16859482, 3978124, 12888255.
I find this approach attractive because I do not want
to deal with the hunger and weight loss of CR.
[I have been aware of the acipimox studies re autophagy for some time now. Both
CR and every other day fasting (EOD) have much data including lifespan studies
for many animal species to support their efficacy. Acipimox aided fasting has
relatively little study behind it, particularly no lifespan study with any
animal. I think that it is highly unlikely that this one upregulated axis
(autophagy) is responsible for all the benefits of CR and EOD. There are
additionally enormous numbers of benefits from having highly reduced amounts of
fat. Only today I read an article in Science News about a study showing that fat
cells excrete a substance that aids the development of cancer. Having a BMI of
20-21 is going to *always* be healthier than a greater one, unless the low BMI
has been caused by some disease process or unless one is going on a long trip to
the arctic, antarctic or some other desolate, remote wasteland. Since the
practice of CR can also be done without any hunger pangs (I and Kitty eat plenty
of food volume to satisfy us and even enjoy small dessert treats), I therefore
see no reason why anyone should be desperately trying to find ways to avoid it.
This having been said, I think that acipimox may well be a useful adjunct to CR
which will make its effects that much more beneficial without the CR having to
be so intense and for that reason I am planning to try it. --Paul]
Acipimox is not available in the USA, but it can be
ordered online (e.g www.1drug.com) I received
my 1drug order postmarked Thailand in only 11 days.
The trade name is Olbetam:
One week ago I tried fasting for 24 hours without taking any
acipimox, and I did not find it too difficult. I took only water
from 19:00 until 19:00 the next day.
[This appears to be in contradiction to your statement above that you do not
want to "deal with the hunger" of CR, since the simple regimen of doing without
breakfast every other day would be one way of practicing CR. Another very simple
way is to eat only twice daily and/or cut the size of your meals - eat slowly
until you no longer feel hungry and then stop. Drinking green tea between meals
easily staves off any hunger until the next meal either 8-9 hours later if that
meal is dinner, or 14-15 hours later if that meal is breakfast. --Paul]
[The best ways I have found to reduce the annoyance of hunger is to be busy at
tasks that call for concentration and to have plenty of green-rooibos tea
available (with lemon for my taste preference). Boredom or monotonous
tasks/activities are notorious for increasing one's perception of an empty
[In the studies showing benefits of weekly fasting or every other day fasting
the regimens have involved full days without food. The regimen you describe on
the other hand where you fast from 19:00 until 19:00 the next day is equivalent
to eating once daily, not fasting a whole day. Let's say a person regularly
wakes up at 8.00am and goes to sleep at 12.00am, eats breakfast at 9.00am and
eats his last meal of the day at 8.00pm. If he fasts for a full day then he will
be fasting from 8.00pm to 9.00am two days later, a total of 36 hours. You on the
other hand are only fasting for 24 hours so the benefit you get might be
considerably less than if you fasted for a whole day. The relative difference is
even greater if you consider the fact that you will not reach a fasted state
until a few hours after eating your last meal so the actual time spent in a
fasting state will be a few hours less than the time frame between the meals.
Fasting for 24 hours the way you are doing it will most certainly be very
beneficial for you, I just wanted to point out that it is not equivalent to
fasting a whole day and the benefits will likely be less than if you took a
whole day off food. -°Olafur]
I also tried one 250 mg
capsule of acipimox with a meal to make sure I did not have
a rare allergic reaction.
[That was a wise action. --Paul]
Last Friday I started my first acipimox fast:
* dinner at 19:00, then started water fast
* one 250mg capsule at 22:00
* one 250mg capsule at 6:00
* one 250mg capsule at 12:00
* broke fast at 19:00 with dinner.
[From where did you get this regimen for taking acipimox for promotion of
autophagy? My guess is that the capsule at 22:00 would be largely wasted. It
also appears that you are going to bed only 3 hours after eating. This is a
mistake. From the point of view of hormone production and other physiological
activities that take place during sleep the body should be in a fasted state
right at the start of sleep. Therefore, one should always finish eating at least
4 hours before sleep and preferably 6 hours. If you want to take 3 capsules on
the day of the fast, then I suggest that 6:00 (presumably your rising time).
10:00 AM and 2:00 PM would be better, with dinner no later than 6:00 PM --Paul]
[There is one reason to think the capsule at 22.00 would not be largely wasted.
It is well known that insulin inhibits autophagy although in some cases it can
also stimulate it, and as I've posted on the sci.life-extension group lowering
of insulin level probably plays a role in the effect of acipimox on autophagy.
Acipimox has been shown to lower insulin levels, but when insulin levels are
already very low it doesn't seem to lower it any further. In the full text of
PMID: 9753300 (which is free through pubmed BTW) acipimox given to subjects
fasted overnight or fasted for 24 hours did not appear to reduce their insulin
levels probably because they were already very low after the fasting. So with
respect to acipimox's effect on insulin levels it would probably be of most
benefit at the start of the fasting when insulin levels have not fallen far down
yet. Taken at that time it might help reduce insulin levels faster after the
meal and reaching a state of higher autophagy sooner. -°Olafur]
[That means that taking acipimox only 3 hours after eating would also compensate
for the lack of time after eating before going to sleep, since the low insulin
level is essential for the sleep benefits to which I was referring. However, I
still think that it would be even better to eat 4-6 hours before sleep and be in
a naturally fasted state at sleep time. In addition, the purpose and effect of
acipimox is not only or even mainly to lower insulin, otherwise it would be of
little value to take it during the next daytime when already in a fasted state.
BTW, don't forget that it will also be best to exercise just before dinner,
particularly on those days when you do not eat breakfast and take acipimox.
I had no problems except for slight headache in afternoon.
I was not too hungry either. I did feel more tired than
usual in the late evening, so I went to bed earlier and
slept longer than normal. I am not sure this was
connected to the fast or the acipimox, except that I
do not remember feeling tired after my non-acipimox fast.
[This feeling can vary from time to time. So you would need to try these with
and without variations several times to see if there is a real co-relation with
tiredness or not. --Paul]
I have a report from another person who has tried the
acipimox fast that they experienced increased hunger in
the afternoon that might to be caused by the lipid lowering
effect of acipimox. However, I did not experience this.
Barring complications I plan to continue these once weekly
fasts with acipimox for 6 months when I have a yearly
physical that might indicate health improvements such as
lower lipid levels. I am 62 yo, 180 lb, 6'1" and, I am in
[That will certainly be interesting to see. One of the problems with this
regimen (as with so many others, particularly those involving nutrients) is that
there is often very little way in the short term that one can detect whether or
not the regimen is having any beneficial effect. This is probably why so many
people do not maintain such regimens for very long and constantly seek others,
that usually turn out to be equally as equivocal. Instead for long term human
benefit, one must learn to understand and have confidence in the study results
for shorter lived animals or for shorter times with diseased humans, and/or in
the mechanisms behind the regimens. --Paul]
If anyone else has experience with acipimox fasting, I would
like to share experience with them.
[When I and Kitty try it, we will of course post our experience here and on our
website. However, since we are in the midst of several other alterations and
trying to reach a steady state with all parameters in a good state, using
acipimox may have to wait many months yet. --Paul]
PS Kitty: Yes, the picture on my Yahoo profile is from the
Andes. I was standing a "The Gate of the Sun", a spectacular
overlook at Machu Picchu in Peru, after a 4 day trek
along the Inca trail. Last month I climbed the volcano
Cotopaxi (5,897 m or 19,347 ft) in Ecuador:
One of my hobbies is adventure travel.
[Thanks, Dave, for detailing the photo location. This one and your more recent
sound very interesting and definitely adventuresome. The photo in the link
appears to show a higher level of risk than I or Paul are willing to take.
Both of us enjoy hikes but ours in the Arizona deserts and slightly higher
elevations, as well as those in woods of Harcourt Park in Ontario, (photos of
various areas available - http://morelife.org/personal/photos/ ) are as far as
we will likely go for awhile. **Kitty]
I apologize if this has been adressed somewhere, and I missed it, but
is it possible the human's livers are metabolizing resveratrol into
something that lacks the activity seen in animals from trans
resveratrol i.e. does anyone know that resveratrol glucuronides do in
humans what trans resveratrol does in animals?
[I think the answer to your question is no. Resveratrol is not such a strange
chemical that the livers of most animals do not work on it the same way. The
absorption and metabolism of resveratrol by mice and rats is essentially the
same as by humans (PMID: 12523673). All studies show that no significant amount
of free resveratrol (same as trans-resveratrol) is found in the serum after
ingestion. Nevertheless multiple in vivo studies also show that it appears to be
highly beneficial in many ways. Most scientists seem now to realize that the in
vitro studies of pure resveratrol are not very meaningful wrt the in vivo
effects and that what should instead be studied in vitro are the effects of the
metabolites of resveratrol which are mainly the 3- and 4-glucuronides and the
3-sulfate. It is possible that these are acting as storage and transport forms
of resveratrol and that it is being converted back to the free form within
cells, or it may be that these metabolites themselves are producing its
beneficial effects. This may particularly be true for the sulfate form since
many chemicals are sulfated and unsulfated regularly within the body. However,
this has yet to be fully discovered.
[Humans have also an enzyme called beta-glucuronidase which could convert
resveratrol glucuronides back to resveratrol (PMID: 15349955). But whether this
happens in vivo and to what degree has yet to be determined AFAIK -°Olafur]
However, there is no question that resveratrol has multiple beneficial effects
in rats, mice, fish, etc and since its metabolism by these animals appears to be
little different than for humans, I see no reason for skepticism that is will
not have the same beneficial effects in humans. --Paul]
Mol Nutr Food Res. 2005 May;49(5):495-504.
Bioavailability of trans-resveratrol from red wine in humans.
* Vitaglione P,
* Sforza S,
* Galaverna G,
* Ghidini C,
* Caporaso N,
* Vescovi PP,
* Fogliano V,
* Marchelli R.
Dipartimento di Scienza degli Alimenti, Universita degli Studi di
Napoli Federico II, Portici NA, Italy.
Many in vitro studies demonstrated significant biological effects of
trans-resveratrol. Thus, understanding the rate of intestinal
absorption and metabolization in vivo of trans-resveratrol is the
prerequisite to evaluate its potential health impact. Bioavailability
studies mainly in animals or in humans using the pure compound at very
high doses were performed. In this work, trans-resveratrol
bioavailability from a moderate consumption of red wine in 25 healthy
humans has been studied by three different experiments. The wine
ingestion was associated to three different dietary approaches:
fasting, a standard meal, a meal with high and low amount of lipids.
Trans-resveratrol 3- and 4'-glucuronides were synthesized, purified,
and characterized as pure standards. Bioavailability data were
obtained by measuring the concentration of free, 3-glucuronide and
4'-glucuronide trans-resveratrol by high-performance liquid
chromatography (HPLC), both with ultraviolet (UV) and mass
spectrometry (MS) detection, in serum samples taken at different times
after red wine administration. Free trans-resveratrol was found, in
trace amounts, only in some serum samples collected 30 min after red
wine ingestion while after longer times resveratrol glucuronides
predominated. Trans-resveratrol bioavailability was shown to be
independent from the meal or its lipid content. The finding in human
serum of trans-resveratrol glucuronides, rather than the free form of
the compound, with a high interindividual variability, raises some
doubts about the health effects of dietary resveratrol consumption and
suggests that the benefits associated to red wine consumption could be
probably due to the whole antioxidant pool present in red wine.
Scott La Pidus
We are very pleased to announce that the long awaited Natural Social
Contract - for the goal Freeman society - is done and has been
uploaded along with its 37 separate annotation webpages. The NSC
is still labeled as a Draft in anticipation of a final vetting for a
few months, after which we two will be the first signers. Also, the
Declaration of Individual Independence execution document and the
annotation version have been improved. Additionally the philosophical
basis essays have also been improved, including the essay, "Social
Meta-Needs: A New Basis for Optimal Interaction", which derives the
basis for the operation of the Freeman Society from the nature of
humans in reality. It is now more closely related to its formal
implementation as the Natural Social Contract.
http://selfsip.org - We recommend starting from the Project's home
page and working through the site in the order recommended there.
This significant philosophical improvement required more time than was
originally anticipated almost 2 years ago, partly due to time spent on
working out some examples of realistic situations of human interaction
in minute detail. There is nothing like attempting to determine how
every action of an example relates to one's theory, to cause any
flaws, holes and/or contradictions to become apparent. In order to
make the NSC consistent with the Social Meta-Needs theory - and that
theory itself also self-consistent - considerable effort, time and
deep thought was required on Paul's part. We look forward to posts
here at MoreLife Yahoo (or appropriate other public forums) from those
who have spent sufficient time to read and study the essays and
The detailed interaction examples remain to be completed, since they
have been greatly expanded in detail since the original ones were
shown to a few people. That task will likely require several more
months of Paul's time, between his many other tasks, but it is planned
to upload them in sections as they are completed.
Started reading and found an error you might want to correct since it is early
on in the project:
I had often wondered about Thoreau's response to this payment of his tax for
him, but an answer appears to be given here. (Thanks to Rob M.) If the
description of what occurred given at that website is accurate, then it
appears that Thoreau did all that he could to continue his protest.
Link "here" has changed and goes not point to anything described.
[Actually, this critique is not properly a part of the SelfSIP at all (which I
essentially stated in the introductory paragraph above the list of essays and
links on the Index page of Critiques of Founding Documents section -
http://selfsip.org/critiques/). However, I now realize that my remarks there are
conflicting and are not sufficient to dissuade people from reading it first.
Therefore, it will be moved into another section of the page below the critiques
of the US founding documents and the intro paragraph will be rewritten. Thanks
for your input. This is exactly what we need from people, because without it we
cannot determine how people may be confused or led astray by our directions or
[Thanks, Erich, for bringing this to our attention. While I and Paul checked and
rechecked the links on our many pages (automatically for those direct, and
a site one of our pages linked to. In this case, the website san.beck.org
restructured their website but failed to put a redirect command at this old
page, something they could easily do and which we ourselves did in the first
couple of years of MoreLife.org when we modified our original subdirectory
If a reader clicks on the provided link s/he will be at a combination page that
includes Thoreau near the bottom. The direct link for that portion that holds
the information linked to from Paul's essay, "Beyond Thoreau", is at
The original page can also be seen via Internet Archives Wayback Machine:
Might I also
suggest that since it is vital that people reading are not interrupted or
slowed down by broken links on something as important as this project is, that
duplicating the appropriate text from other websites and referencing it with a
link would be a much better way and ensure that the project is self contained.
[When we created the Critiques of Revered Founding Documents subsection of the
Self-Sovereign Individual Project, Paul and I discussed whether to include his
essay on Thoreau, as we did directly with the critique of the Declaration of
Independence and Articles of Confederation . (see
http://www.strike-the-root.com/archive/wakfer.html) For these 2 latter, Paul
knew that he'd most likely revise/improve these at some later date, and having
those essays resident on our own site made sense. But we didn't think that he
would do that with "Beyond Thoreau" nor would I with "Return to the
[Actually, I just pointed out to Kitty that her essay "Return to the
Constitution" is not linked to from SelfSIP anywhere. We will be rectifying this
by placing a link to it in the Focus Section index. --Paul]
So it made sense to us to simply direct SelfSIP readers to our essays at
Strike-the-Root, despite the fact that owner Rob Moody removed all links to us
on the pages at STR. (This was after Rob had responded to me in on June 29 2003
as though I was ignorant/flighty - possibly even an idiot - when I continued
to repeat my email concern that he may have overwritten Paul's earlier critique
of the Declaration of Independence with the newer one on the Articles of
Confederation because of a link misdirection from the Wakfer archives. He did
later that day admit finding that he had indeed overwritten the file, but
feigned innocence at my comment, "I don't appreciate the assumption that I'm an
idiot." - "Did I ever say that you were?" When I told him that his inference was
just this and that his failure to listen to me the first time had caused a waste
of both his and my time, he responded that we should find another venue for our
work, which included copies he had of the critique of the Constitution Preamble
& Bill of Rights, first of 3 installments of earliest Declaration of Individual
Independence and also another essay by me. Soon afterward, he deleted the links
to our email addresses, to MoreLife.org and SelfSIP.org, though he retained the
4 essays themselves already published at STR. BTW, in relooking the email
exchange I had with Rob Moody in June 2003, I discovered that my last essay sent
to him has never been published at all - I'll rectify that soon in the SelfSIP
At this time, I could enter a note on our Critiques Section index page at the
link for "Beyond Thoreau" that the "here" link in the text is not direct and
give the new URL. We could also bring that essay in-house at SelfSIP and also
provide a link to its original published location at STR, and reason for
duplication. Not sure yet which route I'll follow. **Kitty]
[We have been lately finding many valuable dialogs on various forums have been
lost, some of which we do not have copies nor have the original URL. (If we had
the latter, we could use the Internet Archive for those that are constructed so
that they can be archived by external crawlers. Unfortunately many currently are
not.) Therefore, from now on we will be sure to retain copies of everything that
we write elsewhere (except on newsgroups which all appear to have an everlasting
home at groups.google.com), and we may start to publish more of it on
SelfSIP.org (or on MoreLife.org if health/lE oriented). However, publishing on
our website is time consuming (some website programming database help would be
enormously beneficial to us and our whole effort). In addition, I do not want to
distract the SelfSIP reader from the important writings there by including too
many of less importance. Therefore, it will always only be highly insightful and
illustrative external responses and dialogs that will be brought in to SelfSIP.
Our esteemed moderator wrote:
"I personally do not take resveratrol at this time and have not changed my mind
as a result of this new research. I don't consider the potential benefits worth
the cost for me as evidence for benefits in those eating a healthy diet is still
Yet the following quote from the abstract made me think there may be reason to
believe it may be worthwhile:
"Here we show that resveratrol shifts the physiology of middle-aged mice on a
high-calorie diet towards that of mice on a standard diet and significantly
increases their survival. Resveratrol produces changes associated with longer
lifespan, including increased insulin sensitivity, reduced insulin-like growth
factor-1 (IGF-I) levels, increased AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK) and
peroxisome proliferator- activated receptor-gamma coactivator 1alpha
(PGC-1alpha) activity, increased mitochondrial number, and improved motor
function. Parametric analysis of gene set enrichment revealed that resveratrol
opposed the effects of the high-calorie diet in 144 out of 153 significantly
[While these effects are all very interesting and beneficial it is particularly
important to note that they were found in mice on a high-calorie diet, not in
mice on a standard diet. In fact, in the study resveratrol was also given to
mice on a standard diet but no results were reported on the effects resveratrol
had on those mice. I suspect the reason for this is that the effects were not
significant since if they were then the authors, having a vested interest in a
company that is developing resveratrol, would surely want to publish that
results as benefit in healthy mice on a standard diet would be even better
reason for people to take resveratrol, giving the authors more money in their
Looking at the full text article I can see that for a large majority of the
parameters, resveratrol supplementation in the mice on a high-calorie diet only
partially restored the levels towards the levels of the mice eating a control
diet without resveratrol. Only a few of the parameters were completely restored
or improved slightly beyond the levels of the control group. This is important
as there is a big difference between restoring harm in an animal caused by some
harmful treatment and further improving the condition of an animal that has not
undergone the harmful treatment and already has a healthy profile. The latter is
akin to fixing a car that ain't broke. So while these results indicate that
resveratrol may have great potential as a life-extension supplement, at the same
time they do not suggest that it will have much benefit for healthy humans
eating a moderate calorie diet. The main implications of the study is that
resveratrol supplementation is probably very beneficial for people who eat a
high calorie diet, have a high BMI or high bodyfat. For people that do not have
a high BMI or a high bodyfat, evidence for benefit from resveratrol
supplementation is less clear particularly when it comes to it's effect on
If it is causing biological changes similar to those seen in calorie
restriction, then it is tempting to conclude it will produce the same effect:
[Yes it is tempting but again these changes were only found in mice eating a
high-calorie diet and for most of the parameters it only partially restored
their profile towards that of the mice eating the standard diet. At the end of
the study the mice in the high-calorie group taking resveratrol had similar
survival curves as the mice eating the standard diet, which does not indicate
any lifespan benefit in people eating a moderate calorie diet. Unfortunately
more than 50% of the mice in the high-calorie group and the standard group were
still alive at the end of the study so whether resveratrol truly increases
longevity is not clear from this study. Hopefully the study is still ongoing and
further results will be published later.
Also note that I specifically said that I didn't consider the potential benefits
of resveratrol worth the cost for *me*. That does not mean I don't think it's
worth the cost for a lot of other people. Resveratrol is a bit expensive, at
least compared to most of the supplements I'm taking, but if I were older and
particularly if I had more assets then I would definitely take resveratrol, as I
think the risk of taking it is low. -°Olafur]
A similar approach was taken in a recent paper by Spindler "Use of microarray
biomarkers to identify longevity therapeutics" (PMID: 16441842
http://tinyurl.com/y3jnw2 ) which found metformin caused similar changes.
[In this study metformin produced gene expression profiles similar to that of
mice on CR and according to the full text this was seen in healthy mice. In the
resveratrol study, resveratrol also induced changes in gene expression that
resembled those of mice on CR, and even though the results were only seen in
mice on a high calorie diet they are still very interesting and suggest that
resveratrol may have similar effects in healthy humans eating a moderate calorie
diet, although probably to a lesser degree. Resveratrol however doesn't have
nearly as much in vivo or human evidence behind it as metformin does,
particularly when it comes to healthy humans. -°Olafur]
Of course caloric restriction is the most cost effective method of life
[In terms of money it sure is as you actually save money by eating less, but
cost can also include other things than money and clearly most
life-extensionists appear not to think it is that cost effective as otherwise
they would be practicing it. -°Olafur]
Max Watt (Richard Kaufman)
[Olafur made such an excellent response that I only have one thing to add. It
relates to an unpublished portion of an NIH study which was presented in a
poster at the Sixth International Symposium on Neurobiology and
Neuroendocrinology of Aging that I and Kitty attended in Bregenz Austria in July
2002. The poster contained graphs of the results of a mouse lifespan study using
metformin and 2-deoxyglucose (the results of the last were published as PMID:
15247056, 16399906). The graph showed a clear average and maximum life extension
effect from a dosage of metformin equivalent to about 1-2 grams per day for a
human. Although metformin seems to have little beneficial effect on my fasting
glucose and it may not have any effect in addition to CR, it has a good usage
safety record and I have been taking it constantly ever since that time, --Paul]
More on resveratrol in today's New York Times http://tinyurl.com/y5sqwc
You may have to register (it's free) to see the article.
"An ordinary lab mouse will run about one kilometer — five-eights of a mile — on
a treadmill before collapsing from exhaustion. But mice given resveratrol, a
minor component of red wine and other foods, run twice as far. "
This is spin for an article to be published in _Cell_ by Dr Johan Auwerx and
colleagues at the Institute of Genetics and Molecular and Cellular Biology in
Illkirch, France. The reporter paraphrases findings that resveratrol treated
mice have better mitochondrial function, and more mitochondria, than controls.
I recall studies that CR improves mitochondrial function (ROS production,
similar to n-tbha and r-alpha lipoic acid) but not that any of these increased
the number of mitochondria.
Max Watt (Richard Kaufman)
[Thanks for the hot off the presses post. The full paper .pdf is actually
available right now at: http://images.cell.com/images/EdImages/cell/lagouge.pdf
and its supplemental information .pdf at:
A quick read of the text does not suggest that the number of mitochondria was
"This amplification of the mitochondria was reflected
both in the quantification of mitochondrial size
(Figure 2A, right panel) and mitochondrial DNA content
(mtDNA, Figure 2D)."
Although the major results reported are again comparing high-fat fed mice with
and without resveratrol, they did also compare mice fed regular chow with and
without resveratrol and got some of the same amazing results. It appears that
high dose resveratrol (400mg/kg for mice which would be over 3 grams per day for
a 60kg human) remodels muscle fiber in a similar manner to that of physical
conditioning activity (except that it has no effect on the heart muscle or
output). In fact the following quote:
"The fact that RSV induces a muscle fiber type switch in
the absence of genetic engineering underscores its powerful
pharmacological activities. RSV could hence be
viewed as a performance-enhancing drug, which, in contrast
to other pharmacological mediators, such as anabolic
steroids, improves performance by changing myofiber
specificity rather than by increasing muscle mass."
is almost certain to cause Olympic officials to ban the use of resveratrol by
competing athletes, and it may strongly influence the government to regulate its
usage in supplements also.
Since this message is so topical and I know the Olafur is running behind
schedule, I have decided to let the message through without his comments, which
he can do later by a response when he gets time and if he has interest. --Paul]
From a member, Ken Rudd - blood pressures and test equipment.
- Yes, maybe readers may want to first revel in my old age? - so here it comes
- nearer to my 86th year than to any other.........!
- and when I started to take this blood pressure subject seriously, I was only
70, and my pressure was suggested then as marvellous "for my age" (!) by the
super medic Dr. Sam Baxus (wait for it - as it is now outdated ) then a reading
of 135 /75..pulse 70 something..
Now that figure is,I see, listed medically as around a top acceptable pressure
by the front line medics ( no, not the others who have not yet read the news!
They will still accept 145 as ok!)
Before then, and since, I have for many years used many, many biochemical
pressure improvers ....Growth Hormones injected for the last 16 years ..... but
if you want me to say which one worked and which did n't, please call my twin
brother who did not take any of the same pills.
........ but as he has been dead for years.......
But at a guess, my regretted slow start on Algerberium, (ALT 711) as was badly
interrupted - but now back on line and ramped slowly to 200 mg per. day over 6
months mixed in pure Lemon Juice for store, is likely mainly responsible for my
morning wake up resting pressure of now 110/60 with a Resting Pulse of 55.
I love it.
During the normal commercial working day ( Yes, say 40 to 60 hrs a week) I now
expect a read out of 120/60 and a pulse 60 to 65 - if the last cigarette was a
few minutes away......or my rowing machine read out shows I have just covered 1
mile in 6 minutes in a simulated big rowing boat.....as that sort of thing tends
to put it up a bit.
Well maybe the story of my blood pressure readings can add a flavour to this
particular account so here goes.......It is one only prompted by the 'Kitty'
insert which reads :-
" in the old days of manual blood pressure measurement..............."
which I supposed means the now current use of digital kits?.....and that one is
being used now for these read outs?
If so, please read on, if not - how about locating the delete button?
My Son Dr.S.Rudd visited an international medics equipment show in UK. and
arrived on the display stand of a famous European medical equipment wholesaler -
wearing his innocent enquirer face when he deliberately asked for a blood
pressure test from the ever attentive salesman,willingly given from one of his
many displayed digital machines
.....and one who quickly taught him (!) how to use a digital blood pressure test
machine of top quality.......even offering a trade discount ....and seeking
The 5 readings were recorded, averaged and stored, in highly efficient manner
and the Steve read out was seen with a smile & he innocently asked if he could
now try 'that other one .....over there' and again the same energetic action
.....but with medically significant different readings, neither having a direct
relationship to each other, nor to Steve's own accurate readings (about the same
as mine - he is 44) which is what Steve had expected.
The salesman was non - plussed - and switched back to the first kit and checked
batteries........tested again - still got no consistency, nor even the same
readings either ................So when Steve suggested 'try yet another?' a
third digital was willingly brought into play...........also batteries checked
.....and yet another set of different readings appeared which were significantly
different from both those obtained on the other two ...and these also were
Steve recommended the salesman to examine his medical liabilities and
I have three digital blood pressure machines, all of high quality, one a wrist
type, the other two, a wrap around the upper arm type.........(I need them as I
live in three countries)
My first alert of obvious problems was when my pressure read out during a midday
rush about - my normally recorded pressures were visually replaced now by
screaming high 180/ 90 - taken because I had felt I was not too well that
day.........so now I panicked.....heart attack ........denied by my steady pulse
ticking way at 65 despite the stress............ .
Dr. Lopez arrived to bury me at about an hour later (!) but he took my blood
pressure first, with his ancient design hand pump -and recorded 120/ 65 with 60
pulse while I laid there waiting for my heart attack -
Oh yes, - hindsight please step in now.......
.'but you had rested for an hour by then?.of course it's was now lower '......
You bet I did..I was truly frightened!
So, How about going 'Back to mine?' but of course, good idea thanks - reads =
Steve Rudd has, since his Exhibition visit checked further on this subject and
has concluded that as digital test systems are thus illustrated as unreliable,
he has discarded that risk and uses only the old type on patients.
His detected common failure point of those tested, he says, may lay in the
microphone of varying quality and always seen as depreciating efficiency over a
year or more.
He has carried out 180 + readings on each of three new digital machines he had
in stock and compared them with the hand type, finding that the average new
digital machine lasts with medical accuracy for about 100 tests, before
beginning to slowly deteriorate.....
By 180 tests - readings are becoming variable and so far out as to be seen as
not within medical parameters.
That is why he went on the exhibition stand of his suppliers in the first place,
to prove the point..
I have tested sets of quality alkaline batteries fresh out the packet and
obtained voltage readings varying from 1.3v to 1.6v. (I used a lot of batteries
on another unrelated use - now have rechargeable - not tested again for this
Suppose they all happen to be 1.3V?
Try it......yes, it does seem to effect my readings, so maybe yours too?
But now I do not use a digital electric machine!`
Thanks for your time...........Ken
[Thanks, Ken, for both the information and the good laugh. You definitely have a
way with descriptions. I can almost hear your British accent too telling the
tales.... To others, we've been in email correspondence with Ken for over 2
years so therefore his high activity level and witty humor at age 86 is not new
to us ;>)
Seriously though, I'd not heard that the digital blood pressure meters could
degrade over time.
Ken, you don't mention when (how long ago) your son Steven had his experience
with digital blood pressure measuring equipment at the medical equipment show in
the UK. I wonder about this because of the conclusions I found in the few papers
(through searches at PubMed and Scirus) regarding inaccuracy or unreliability of
home or clinic digital equipment. PMID: 7934182: "Ensuring the accuracy of
digital sphygmomanometers for home use." - describes a technique for assessing
the accuracy of digital equipment compared to the standard mercury for both
manual and automatic inflation mechanisms. (1994) Since that publication date,
there have been several papers providing some comparison of specific arm located
digital equipment (usually by brand name) vs mercury (and sometimes also
specific wrist or finger devices) on a test sample population. The conclusions I
saw in almost all the abstracts I perused are that the arm (brachial artery)
digital BP equipment measures sufficiently close to the mercury equipment to be
used. (for example: PMID 11485126, PMID: 12488652, PMID: 15021079) These
conclusions of acceptability are for the arm cuff devices intended for
measurement during inactivity; variations are noted in some papers comparing
ambulatory measurement of blood pressure.
To be noted, the topic of a few papers are what is termed "community-based
automated blood pressure measuring devices" which are described as often
inaccurate. [PMID: 7742964, PMID: 12000246] These are the large machines seen in
pharmacies and grocery stores - though I haven't seen any recently. Maybe the
problems with inaccuracy resulted in their removal.
A number of papers have addressed inaccuracy of aneroid (dial type)
sphygmomanometers in comparison to the mercury (considered by many to still to
be the standard) and also digital versions. (PMID: 12488650, PMID: 16050862,
PMID: 16077263) From the latter which addressed aneroid, mercury and automated
(digital), "Accuracy of the pressure scale of sphygmomanometers in clinical use
within primary care.":
"RESULTS: The key finding of this study is that 17.9% (50 out of 279) of all
surveyed devices gave errors exceeding the +/-3 mmHg threshold. Of these, 53.2%
(33 out of 62) of aneroid devices were found to be reading in error by more than
+/-3 mmHg compared with 7.8% (16 out of 217) of the combined population of
mercury and automated devices. The difference between these groups is
statistically significant (P=0.002). Significant differences in the performance
of specific models of aneroid, mercury and automated devices were also
[As I understand it, this paper is only dealing with the pressure measurement
meter itself and not the method of measuring the exact systolic and diastolic
point as the pressure in a cuff is slowly released. It is in that respect only
that +/-3 mmHg would be relatively large, since it would not be very significant
with respect to the overall measurement of systolic and diastolic. I think the
difference between a mercury and dial type is a little like the difference
between a balance and a spring scale. The second must be calibrated and such
calibration can change with time and environmental conditions. --Paul]
From the papers I read, it would appear that generally differences between a
mercury sphygmomanometer and a digital variety are insignificant. However,
individual machines can and have been seen to be inaccurate or become
unreliable. If Steve is aware of any published studies showing inaccuracies in
digital sphygmomenometers - or even letters to journal editors by health care
practitioners - I'd be interested in seeing a copy or getting Internet links to
If I obtained an unusually high or low reading with my usual equipment - and I
or the person on whom I was using it appeared (and felt) physically well - I
would first remove the cuff and make sure it was reapplied properly, even on the
other arm. If the strange measurement was repeated on me or the same person, I
would test it on someone else whose BP I know from previous measurements. If the
unusual measurement persists, then I would conclude that the sphygmomanometer is
most likely faulty. **Kitty]
I have a question: Do you think that there is more benefit from
taking resveratrol in higher dosages, let's say once or twice per
day, or in lower amounts more often throughout the day? Someone
else I was talking to raised the point that larger doses might more
effectively raise serum levels and better influence the SIRT1 gene
(and other possible mechanisms of benefit). I heard from a person
whom asked him directly that Dr. Sinclair takes four Longevinex
(40mg per capsule) per dose (160mg), and does so twice per day
(320mg total). Do you think he's taking the larger doses for
convenience, or perhaps for a more positive benefit than spreading
them out more often?
Disclosure: I have been taking two Longevinex per day (morning &
night) for about 18 months now. I will likely double my dosage very
(DukeNukem at ImmInst.com)
[I am not aware of any experimental evidence that has answered or is relevant to
this question. The mice were simply fed the resveratrol in their food. The
biology of supplementation is far too complex to have any great hope to provide
a valid answer to such a question for many nutrients without doing comparative
experiments, so I think it is really not beneficial to speculate. I expect that
Sinclair is taking it that way with meals for convenience. That is the way that
I am taking it now within capsules containing other supplements (total of 62mg
daily) and plan to take it when I increase my dosage (to 182mg daily) by using
LEF's 20 mg stand alone resveratrol product. --Paul]
[The details of how the mice actually eat their food is not provided, although
the food was given ad lib (as much as they wanted to eat). Maybe one of the
group can provide the information of how mice in a laboratory being fed ad lib
actually consume the food given. **Kitty]
[I have not seen any evidence either that might provide an answer to this
question. Personally if I were taking resveratrol I'd take it with food as I do
with most of the supplements I take. -°Olafur]
> [The details of how the mice actually eat their food is not
> provided, although the food was given ad lib (as much as they wanted
> to eat). Maybe one of the group can provide the information of how
> mice in a laboratory being fed ad lib actually consume the food
> given. **Kitty]
I worked in a lab 43 years ago, caring for rats and dogs while building a
pressure and pH sensing radio-transmitter-in-a-pill for research purposes.....
[I didn't think that the size of electronics was nearly small enough to do such
a thing 43 years ago. --Paul]
I assume things have not changed much. The rats lived in racks of plexiglass
cages, each cage labeled with an identification code. Water bottle on the side
of each cage, with a drinking tube. The food was in bins attached to the side of
each cage. We would refill the bottles and bins daily; if a feed bin in a cage
was consistently empty in the morning, we assumed the cage was too crowded and
would divide the rats between two cages, or put in two feed bins if we didn't
have a spare cage. The rats were seen eating most often when we first gave them
food in the morning. They preferred fresh feed. After that they ate somewhat
randomly, perhaps from boredom as much as hunger. They slept a lot. More than
half of the food remained when we left the lab in late afternoon. When we came
in the next morning, most of the food was gone. I think they partied all
Max Watt (Richard Kaufman)
[I have seen similar mice, rat and rabbit cages also and participated in some
experiments. The food was always given only once daily, but I simply never noted
how they ate it. I think mice are fed and likely eat in this same way. However,
I think that rats are quite nocturnal, so it might be more realistic to give
them their daily dose at night (just before the experimenters leave the lab for
the day). --Paul]
[Was the lab you worked in darkened when the staff left? Or at least the
lighting greatly reduced? **Kitty]
> "A quick read of the text does not suggest that the number of
> mitochondria was increased:..."
It is somewhat buried on page 3, with a reference to "increased mitochondria
size and density." I took this to mean an increase in the number of
[I saw that reference to density when I read the paper, but "density" could
refer also to density of mitochondrial tissue per volume (increased due to
larger mitochondria), rather than of mitochondrial number. Since nothing was
reiterated in either the introductory summary or the discussion to suggest an
increase in mitochondrial number, I think the former is what was meant. But one
would need to write the authors to be sure. --Paul]
The illustrations seem to show more mitochondria per unit area in resveratrol
fed mice (Fig 2C, soleus sections.)
[I don't think that you can go by such pictures, since they might be from
slightly different areas of the muscle, and variations do occur. Again the text
of the study gives no indication that the number of mitochondria were ever
counted. All we know is that the mitochondria were larger, have more mtDNA
copies and were much better functioning. --Paul]
I have a hunch that a resveratrol intervention would slow the sarcopenia that
accompanies aging, to a greater extent than CR alone.
[Possibly, but perhaps not any better than exercise. However, only
experimentation will tell us. --Paul]
The resveratrol used in the study is from Kumar, an Indian company in the city
of Chennaiah. A bulk purchase would make the cost more reasonable than the
longevinex product. I for one would be interested in partaking.
[I have no idea where you got "Kumar" from. Both this and the Sinclair study on
high fat diet mice got their resveratrol from Orchid Pharmaceuticals either in
Aurangabad, India or in Chennai, India. I will see if a bulk purchase can be
made. Otherwise it is both costly and not easy to take 400 mg or more per day.
Max Watt (Richard Kaufman)
As a result of Erich Brueschke's post 11/14 re. Paul's essay on
Thoreau at strike-the-root.com -
the Critiques of Revered Founding Documents section of SelfSIP has
been reorganized so that it is now quite clear that reading that
essay is not essential to understanding the other essays in the
Critiques Section, nor before studying the other SelfSIP Fundamentals
Section and Solutions Achievement Section pages. I also have brought
that essay, "Beyond Thoreau", into SelfSIP for a better presentation
than it was getting at Strike the Root since its publication in
September 2002, though I've retained a link to it there for reader
In addition, the essay "Return to the Constitution??!" that I wrote
and has been at STR since June 23 2003, is now in the Focus section of
SelfSIP, mainly because I found that the links in it to Paul's essays
at SelfSIP had been removed (as were all links to ourselves and our websites).
Also I have placed my rediscovered essay from June 2003, "Beyond Anger
and Anguish" (sent to STR but never published and then forgotten by me until
recently reviewing old emails to STR owner, Rob Moody), in the Focus section.
Our thanks again to Erich for bringing the problem with the Thoreau
essay to our attention, which lead us to discover the other problems
and make these changes.
I've been meaning to ask this for a long time. Since I do not have any
deal going on with the LEF, it's to be expected that I cannot afford
to buy all of the supps. you do. I'd like to get a list of all of the
supplements you'd still want to buy (from the LEF) should no deal
existed between you and the LEF.
What are they ?
34 years old
[Actually, I and Kitty are currently going through a process of reducing our
supplement intake because it has grown so large that there are just too many
pills to take both comfortably with a meal and without causing intestinal
discomfort (gas and/or very loose bowel movements). Therefore your question is
We have been taking many ingredients multiply both to get more of each and
because I think that it is safer (more certain to get the ingredient into the
body) to get an ingredient from more than one type of source. Many of the
ingredients that I take are already included in LEF mix and Booster. I only take
these in other formulations to get more or a second source of them.
In any case here is my core list of LEF supplements, which I would take even if
I had to pay member prices for them.
Citrichrome (hydroxycitric acid not elsewhere and get more Chromium)
Melatonin (via Natural Sleep product)
Mitochondrial Energy Optimizer
N-acetyl cysteine (even though in LEF Mix, because it is so important)
Natural Prostate (for any male past 50)
Natural Estrogen (for any female past menopause)
No-Flush Niacin (even though in LEF Mix, because it is so important)
Optizinc (even though in LEF Mix, because it is so important)
Pantothenic Acid (even though in LEF Mix, because it is so important)
Peak ATP with GlycoCarn (because propionyl carnitine is not in others)
Pomegranate Extract Capsules
Pure Gar Caps w/EDTA
R-Dihydro-Lipoic Acid (even though in Mito Eng Opt)
Super Bioactive Coq10 Ubiquinol
Super EPA/DHA (unless oily fish is eaten daily)
Taurine (even though in LEF Mix, because it is so important)
Vitamin D3 (even though in LEF Mix, because it is so important)
Non LEF chemicals
1) Some things that we would take for specific dysfunctions/deficiencies (such
as Cran Max - for Kitty who is prone to bladder infections - and some joint
problem prevention ingredients) have been omitted since they would depend on
2) I have not done a cost/benefit analysis of the above LEF products with other
LEF products containing essentially the same ingredients.
3) If we were to take only the above, we might find out from blood tests that
some increase in dosages or certain ingredients were needed in addition to
correct some of the results.
4) If I had to pay member prices, I would also check out other sources and some
of my choices for particular sets of ingredients might change as well.
5) The above is only an off the top of my head opinion. I really do not have
time or interest to justify my choices (more than given above) or to give
dosages as well, although I will accept a limited number of questions concerning
why I omitted certain ingredients. But before anyone asks why I haven't included
"X", check the ingredients of all the above at LEF to make sure that one of them
doesn't contain "X". As for dosages, this varies enormously with the individual,
hir health state and age, but as a first approximation use the dosages
recommended by LEF. --Paul]
[Unfortunately, our online ingredients table is not up to date, since some of
the above products are new and others have new formulations.
Max Watt (Richard Kaufman)
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Max Watt <maxwatt2002@...>
> To: firstname.lastname@example.org
> I worked in a lab 43 years ago, caring for rats and dogs while
> building a pressure and pH sensing radio-transmitter- in-a-pill for > research
> [I didn't think that the size of electronics was nearly small enough > to do
such a thing 43 years ago. --Paul]
A miniature (by the standards of 1963) transister had just become available,
which would fit into a machined capsule the size of a large pill. I could make
an oscillator that would change frequence when a diaphragm (capacitor) moved due
to pressure changes. We could easily but uselessly measure temperature, after
calibrating the drift in frequency. PH was a little trickier, but correlated
with the resistance between two electrodes, which again would change the
oscillator frequency. Primitive, but high tech then. But the V.A. hospital
requisition staff decided that a much larger but cheaper transister was the
equivalent, and substituted on the parts order. It wasted six weeks of an eight
week project to straighten it out.
> [I have seen similar mice, rat and rabbit cages also and
> participated in some experiments. The food was always given only
> once daily, but I simply never noted how they ate it. I think mice
> are fed and likely eat in this same way. However, I think that rats
> are quite nocturnal, so it might be more realistic to give them
> their daily dose at night (just before the experimenters leave the
> lab for the day). --Paul]
It was done for the staff's convenience, not the rats. Or maybe not, it was
thought less likely they would forget to feed the rats first thing, rather than
when hurrying to get home.
> [Was the lab you worked in darkened when the staff left? Or at least
> the lighting greatly reduced? **Kitty]
The lights were turned out when the staff left about 4PM.
[I appreciate the answers. Many others never answer the questions I or Kitty
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Max Watt <maxwatt2002@...>
> To: email@example.com
> Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 5:09:59 PM
> Subject: [morelife] Re: Resveratrol - ANOTHER new study results
> Paul wrote:
> [I saw that reference to density when I read the paper, but
> "density" could refer also to density of mitochondrial tissue per
> volume (increased due to larger mitochondria), rather than of
> mitochondrial number. Since nothing was reiterated in either the
> introductory summary or the discussion to suggest an increase in
> mitochondrial number, I think the former is what was meant. But one
> would need to write the authors to be sure. --Paul]
I took the mtDNA copy number to be such a count. But is the count the number of
mitochondria per cell, or per unit area of muscle with denser fiber counts? It
[I saw the reference to mtDNA copy number, but I knew that unlike nuclear DNA,
mitochondria (like many bateria) can have more than one mtDNA copy within the
mitochondrial membrane. So I assumed that is to what they were referring. I
think they could measure it by easier methods than actually counting
mitochondria. I think that the mtDNA Quantification section of supplemental
information on the measuring techniques that they used verifies my
"Select mouse tissues were homogenized and digested with Proteinase K overnight
in a lysis
buffer for DNA extraction .... for direct analysis of liberated nucleic acids.
.... Data are expressed as mitochondrial genomes per
However, in the main paper occurs the text:
"Mitochondria in EM images were quantified using Image J version 1.36b."
So I guess the question is still open. --Paul]
The discussion does state that "the myofibers... were enriched in mitochondria."
Sounds like an increase in number, but still ambiguous. Either way, there is
improved mitochondrial function.
[I have now read three other summaries of the study and none have suggested that
the number of mitochondria was increased. --Paul]
> [I have no idea where you got "Kumar" from. Both this and the
> Sinclair study on high fat diet mice got their resveratrol from
> Orchid Pharmaceuticals either in Aurangabad, India or in Chennai,
> India. I will see if a bulk purchase can be made. Otherwise it is
> both costly and not easy to take 400 mg or more per day. --Paul]
I conflated my research. Orchid was the source cited, but I found Kumar Organic
Products in Bangalore sells it in bulk. http://kawari.trustpass.alibaba.com/ I
would have to confirm if they buy from Orchid or make their own. They derive
the product from Polygonium. I surmise this is the source for the product being
sold by FoodScience of Vermont; they sell 120 50mg resveratrol capsules for $36,
but available (see Froogle) from $21 to $24. They also sell private label, or
via internet partners. It's the least expensive source I've found for retail.
It would bring the cost under $2 a day which is still a bit high, and the dose
to eight to ten caps a day.
Thanks for looking into a bulk order.
Watson Industries http://www.watsonii.com/productlist.htm and DNP International
http://www.dnpint.com/products/herbal.asp import Polygonum at 20% resveratrol
and sell in 5 kg lots, but I do not know their source.
Max Watt (Richard Kaufman)
[I am most interested in getting the same Orchid product that both research
teams used, since we know that is both good quality/purity and also is what
produced the positive results. I have already sent an inquiry about bulk pricing
to the US business representative of Orchid, but I don't expect to hear back
until at least Monday. --Paul]
Thanks Paul for this list--I'm satisfied with it. That's what I wanted
to get. No need to add dosages, or justify why you'd take those.
One question though: I noticed you have left out the GH boosters as
part of your nightime mix. I expect it's either because you don't
expect much out of it at the end of the day, OR because you feel you
derive the same or better growth hormone boost out of other
products/ingredients in the above list, because of their effect on
sleep such as melatonin, or other ingredients via a indirect effect on
endocrine function. Comes to mind DHEA which appears to increase IGF-1.
34 years old
Riviere du Loup
[I omitted most GH boosters for a little of each of the following reasons:
1) None of them seem to be very effective.
2) I did include both arginine and ornithine, which are the most effective ones.
3) The best GH boost is undoubtedly from exercise.
4) Too much GH may promote cancer.
5) Mice getting GH did not live longer.
6) DHEA alone does increase IGF-1 which is one product of GH release.
7) It is best for the body to produce its hormones by itself if at all possible.
> Kitty asked If I would add a perspective. I have 2 properties in
> Belize, one a house in a small town of 15,000
> (http://www.kumquatcottage.com) and also a 93 acre piece of jungle.
> In the jungle I have paths cut where I grow 60+ species of fruits
> (I am farming this way to prevent damage to the ecosystem--instead
> of the often used clear-cutting of several acres.)
> I am planning to live there year round eventually, making money in
> the US at the present.
> A small country really changes your perspective on government
> control. In a country the size of Massachusetts, but with a
> population of only 275,000 (the size of Saint Paul where I reside
> in Minnesota) the government is basically non-existent. It just
> can't function on all the control levels that the US or Canada can.
> So while some items might not be readily available, there aren't any
> agencies that have time to be concerned with what I am consuming
> nor how I am obtaining it (the exception is with marijuana and other
> drugs that the US officials keep an eye on.)
> [How exactly do US agencies interfere in any activities related
> to marijuana or other US regulated chemicals by the residents
> of Belize? --Paul]
There have been recent reports on the northern highway (an area
about a four hour drive from my house) where American soldiers have
pulled over vehicles looking for recreational drugs, presumably on
there way to the US. The most disturbing part is that they did this
without Belizean officials present. They happened to pull over the
wrong person -- a well-known American woman who works for the US
embassy. She publicized the event and Belize citizens have been
outraged. I can't tell you where this is going, anyone's guess. It
seems silly to think of Belize as a Marijuana kingpin with Mexico to
it's north. If cocaine is making its way from South America, makes
more sense that it would be by boat (Belize's southern highway stops
before reaching Guatemala and Honduras -- the jungle is to thick
and wet to make foot travel practical.)
[My question is whether the Belizean government officials even knew that the US
soldier were there? Or was this just one more instance of the US government
thinking that it owns the world and can do what it wants anywhere at any time?
If they did know, what was their reason for agreeing to this interference with
their own sovereign jurisdiction. --Paul]
[I found the answer to Paul's question - at one US government website:
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/1955.htm The section, U.S.-BELIZEAN
RELATIONS", makes it quite clear that government arrangements are in place for
presence of military troops, "working closely with the Government of Belize to
fight illicit narcotics trafficking, and both governments seek to control the
flow of illegal migrants to the United States through Belize". Also, "The United
States is the largest provider of economic assistance to Belize, contributing
$2.5 million in various bilateral economic and military aid programs to Belize
in FY 2006." Another US govern website, this one for the US Army South Public
Affairs Office, includes mention of activity in Belize (among many other South
American countries) in last 10 years -
http://www.usarso.army.mil/PAO/AboutUs.aspx The page closes with, "USARSO has
achieved a legacy of cooperation in USSOUTHCOM's AOR, maintained a commitment to
democracy and upholds a promise of peace."
Regarding US military activity in other countries, a PBS Frontline website page
contains some interesting data, even though its only for the years 1969 - 2004.
What I do know, though, is that no one cares about supplements. I
brought in 3 3lb jugs of Whey protein and a bunch of bottles of
vitamins and all they asked me is if these were for personal use
rather than resale. Many pharmacies will sell over-the-counter
pharmaceuticals without a perscription, though some will ask if you
have a doctor's reference (I don't know if this is ethics or tied to
some dificult to enforce law.)
[Whether or not there is any law, it is not unreasonable, and actually quite
ethical, IMO, for any person either giving advice or selling
drugs/chemicals/supplements to ask the receiver some questions in order to
ascertain whether or not s/he knows at all what s/he is doing. This includes
refusing to sell to someone who appears not to know anything about the negatives
of what s/he is purchasing, since it is not in one's long-range self-interest
for any person to be harmed except as that person has first harmed another and
hir harm is merely due to the payment of restitution. Thus one wants informed
buyers so that one is more sure that one's actions will not lead to harm even
though one will not be directly responsible. --Paul]
> [This is interesting as here in Iceland which has just about the
> same population (just over 300.000 residents) the governmental
> agents appear to have plenty of time as they inspect nearly every
> single shipment of supplements I order. -°Olafur]
> [Good point, Olafur. I suspect the difference is because Iceland
> is much more technologically and commercially advanced than Belize,
> and thus, has the money to afford all this government. And
> unfortunately its citizens appear to want all this government
> interference with their lives and are willing to pay for it. I
> suspect that they want it because they have been brainwashed to want
> to be "equal" with the citizens of the European Union. --Paul]
> No one sends you a
> income tax or property tax bill-- they don't have the money to do
> it (while I voluntarily go to the capitol of Belmopan to pay mine
> every March,
> [Is this a property or income tax that you pay voluntarily? In
> either case why do you pay it? What services are you getting for
> this payment that you could not get otherwise in some other manner?
> [Don't you own the property on which your house resides and didn't
> you pay the full price for it when you bought it? If so then why on
> earth would you want to pay anyone for being there, it's your
> property right? You're not renting it are you? -°Olafur]
Partly I pay because it is so affordable -- I think it was $23 US
this year as opposed to $2183 in Saint Paul MN. Being a foreigner
and uncertain of all the ins and outs of the laws, it is a lot
easier just to pay the token fee. A lot of people choose not to,
sometimes for the reasons you state above, but quite often for lack
of funds (most Belizeans.) You have to settle-up somehow when you
sell the property though in order to get it registered at the Lands
[Thanks for the explanation. It is clear from this that it is a property tax.
Likely it is as low as it is because of the major amount of US foreign aid being
stolen from many US tax payers and used to purchase narcotics cooperation from
the Belizean government. But, I can understand and agree with your reasons for
paying it, particularly the fact that you will have to pay anyway to get your
property legally transferred if you sell it. This is similar to many tax laws or
other fines in the US and Canada which are registered against either a car (and
must be paid when getting a new title or selling the car) or some other
registered asset. Since these also accumulate additional penalties and interest
if unpaid when due, in the end it is best to pay up when first due. These are
examples of some government assessments that I have in the past tried to get
around paying, but which in the end, I could currently find no method that left
me better off than to pay them before their due date. Fortunately this does not
apply to all taxes and penalties, many of which can be eluded without too much
difficulty or risk. --Paul]
> [Olafur, you owe us all an explanation of how government in
> Iceland gets its money for all the services it provides to various
> Icelandic citizens. I know there is a large VAT (value added tax)
> but is there not also tax on property including real estate owned
> which pays for the city services (police, utilities, garbage, etc -
> not that this should be provided by taxes, but I assume it is)? What
> government taxes do your parents pay on the apartment/condominium
> they own? In addition to property taxes, what income taxes do they
> and you pay? Does your tuition at school fully pay the cost of your
> schooling? (Olafur is bogged down with studies right now, so he'll
> have to respond in a follow-up.)
> Governments get their money from the people who live and visit or
> do business within their geographical boundaries - or in the case of
> the US, also citizens living elsewhere; property taxes is one of the
> many schemes they use. **Kitty]
> many of my neighbors say they haven't kept up with taxes in
> years.) The funny part is that people have built up more of an
> honor system than I have ever seen anywhere else.
> [I suspect this is a result of smallness, lack of anonymity and
> everyone easily knowing everyone else. This kind of atmosphere is
> also extant in small towns in the US and Canada, and it used to be
> even more often found before the enormous ability to travel far and
> communicate indirectly came about. In my childhood most people in a
> small town knew of or about each other and all interacted as
> neighbors. --Paul]
> "Well, I pay my
> taxes because I agreed to, and they need that money to pay teachers
> and other workers."
> [Is this quote an example from someone else of the reason s/he
> pays taxes, ie. of this "honor system" as it relates to paying
> taxes? If so to whom and in what way did this person "agree" to pay
> taxes. Perhaps you did as a condition of being allowed to live
> there. --Paul]
This is just an example of what I have heard.
Much of the land that Belizeans own is actually leasehold land. The
government gives them free property and then promises are made to
make improvements (build a house) within a certain time.
[If the promises are completed does the land pass from being leasehold to full
ownership? How complete is the your ownership over your property there? What
restrictions are there on what you want to do with your land and its contents?
So there is a central agency of the government that handles this.
I guess by agreeing to these benefits you also agree to pay a nomimal
fee to keep the system running.
[If the government is viewed as a legitimate owner of all the land of the
country, then what you describe is simply a quite proper contractual method of
operation. However, I don't think that the government should be so viewed
because it has not taken the basic necessary steps to reasonably acquire such
ownership of all the land. Therefore, any land that is completely unimproved
should instead be seen as virgin unowned land and thus open to being properly
claimed, registered and used without payment of anyone for anything except
necessary services for those purposes. If the government or some company then
supplies additional services to the land (water, sewage, access roads, etc) then
those services are contracted and paid for just as are any other services that
one purchases. --Paul]
[This is part of the paradigm shift of the Self-Sovereign Individual Project,
but which actually has some precedence in history. **Kitty]
The government makes its real taxes on imports (food, supplements,
clothing and other items excluded.) So if you live by Belizean
standards, eat local fruits, beans, vegetables and walk everywhere
you will end up owing a lot less tax. Those who have expensive
luxury habits will end up paying for them. It isn't a perfect
system and it isn't for everyone.
[Do you have to pay taxes on used personal equipment brought in for your own use
such as appliances, computers, audio, etc.? --Paul]
Part of me is defensive because when I talk to potential retirees
over at http://www.belizeforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi they just
can't let go of their American lifestyles, and they tend to complain
about the government a lot. These people are at constant odds with
the lifestyle and bartering system that exists in Belize; they want
to just remake Florida in a cheaper country. They don't really want
to have people of a different color or lingo living next to them.
They overpay for "gated communities" that have no infrastructure.
They will import IKEA furniture and complain about the import duty,
yet don't trust a Belizean craftsman to carve a unique piece out of
real mahogany for many dollars less. They whine about not being
able to get favorite foods like Campbell's soup or McDonald's. For
these type of consumers, the Belize government system is probably
unfriendly. Like I said, it isn't a perfect system and it isn't for
[I totally agree with your opinions of these other foreigners in Belize and you
should not at all feel that you need to be defensive. Don't be afraid to tell
them what is wrong with their ideas, why it is so and to promote the
reasonableness of your own approach. --Paul]
> Of course everyone is related to everyone else
> so that teacher or policeman is your cousin's wife's brother.
> [The teachers, police and other government workers should be paid
> for services by those people who use their services or want them to
> be available in case they are needed, just as with any other
> purchase of a product or service in the marketplace, rather than
> simply because the money is needed by those types of service
> people. --Paul]
This means all the schools will end up being religious (someone with
an agenda) or unaffordable to many people. Many school children in
Belize re-use the paper by carefully erasing previous work because
they can't afford more paper. It isn't about whether these people
want an education -- they do -- put they may not be able to afford
even the basic supplies. I usually bring an extra suitcase full of
school supplies (tax free) just to keep some of these kids in my
caretaker's daughter's class just to keep them going to the next
lesson. I don't know what would happen in the government stopped
paying the teachers altogether. I suppose the schools would then
close or be forced to teach creationism in order to get
[I think that you have missed the point (as so many people do) that the
government does not get money from nowhere. All the money that government has to
dispense is stolen from other people (even your $23 per year property taxes is
stolen in the sense that you are threatened with not being able to transfer your
property or perhaps deported if you do not pay the tax). Although as Kitty has
found out and reported above, some of the government money was actually stolen
from US taxpayers and some of it is effectively a charitable donation by US
citizens who willingly pay taxes. To the extent that the money were not stolen
from Belize taxpayers (and part lost to any productive use in paying wages to
government officials), it would still be in the hands of those from whom it was
stolen to purchase the exact goods and services which *they* (rather than the
government) thought would best increase their lifetime happiness. To the extent
that it was not stolen from US citizens in Belize (still paying taxes to the US
even if full time residents of Belize) they would spend it in Belize on what
*they* wanted to purchase or fund (including wages for services to the local
population). Even the poorest people would then have more assets to pay for the
schooling of their children (if and when necessary for those children to become
more productive - better earners), partly because they would get higher wages
from the richer ones because those richer ones had more money to spend since
less/none had been stolen from them. To the extent that the money coming from
the US is effectively charity (but in return for government cooperation in
violating some people who engaged in pure trade) then all those in Belize are
guilty of gaining from charitable gifts some of which is even stolen funds.
> I didn't invest in Belize with the notion that it was the best
> for self-government, and perhaps it is not. But I am amazed at the
> ways that everyone polices themselves and the social networks built
> up everyone "owing each other favors" rather than paying money for
> many services.
> [This barter arrangement is totally reasonable so long as the
> "favors" are clear, are as evaluated by the person owed and are
> eventually paid. They are no different than work done or property
> sold with delayed payment whether in money or in equivalent services
> or property as evaluated by the person owed and clearly specified up
> front. If there is no clarity and full eventual payment, then this
> system can be every bit as frustrating and divisive to personal good
> will as is any money based system. The fact that the people there
> appear to "police" themselves, ie, they act responsibly to actually
> make the payments of the "favors" is the key ingredient to make such
> a system work well. --Paul]
> It has certainly made me rethink the the false sense
> of security and safety that citizens of the US have.
> [I don't see how this statement follows from the previous ones.
Yes, that statement didn't make sense. I guess I was thinking about
the first questions which always pop up from people who hear how
much I have invested in a "developing nation." They always bring up
security first. They will talk about crime, rogue governments
taking over in a coup, and a loomy threat of disease.
The irony is that deaths per 1000 persons of all causes is higher in
the US (8.8 for the US, 5.39 for Belize.) This is even more drastic
if you realize that Belize's death rate is largely infant mortality
(31.57 per 1000 live births in Belize compared to 6.33 in the US.)
Sorry that I can't find stats for life expectancy for mature adults
for Belize -- everything averages in the infant mortality rate and
then makes it look like Belizeans don't live long lives. But they
seem to. They eat healthy locally grown diets and walk everywhere.
Those who can afford to ride bicycles. I've got 80-year-olds that
have come and machete chopped trails for me in the Jungle and they
keep right up with the young ones.
If retirees that I talk to would just give up their American
lifesyles and adopt the Belizean one, they could stop complaining
about the lack of healthcare because they would probably live longer
[I fully agree with this last. From what you have described it sounds like the
Belizean lifestyle and philosophy of living is not likely to produce any
revolutionary strife and dictatorship, so it is quite likely to continue to have
a very small, stable government. If that is so then it may be an excellent place
for living very remote from large autocratic, interfering imperialistic
governments and away from potential international strife. Nevertheless, if the
Belize government is willing to cooperate with the US government wrt the
narcotics interdiction, then it is just a matter of time before other US
agencies such as the FDA will entice them or threaten them into cooperating to
adopt FDA standards just as they have done with other countries. This is what
happens when a society is based on pragmatism rather that a philosophy
encompassing the fundamental principle of individual self-ownership and liberty.
If one optimizes one's use of healthy foods, exercise and lifestyle supplements
with immune enhancements where necessary, and practices good hygiene, then one
should be able to maintain one's own health there (just as I and Kitty do in the
US and Canada) and have no need for hospitals or doctors. Even so, emergencies
do happen right out of the blue (as with Kitty's kidney stone of almost 4 years
back - she could have lost a kidney if she had to fly from Belize to the US for
care), so why don't you propose to these resident Americans and other foreigners
with assets that they (and you also since it could happen to you too) get
together to capitalize a private hospital with the necessary facilities for
backup purposes, particularly catering to emergency procedures that would be
needed before and sooner than a person could travel to a more modern country
with full medical facilities. This private hospital would, of course, also sell
its services to everyone as and when they were needed and the person could pay.
Naturally, a full feasibility study would first need to be done, and then a
proposal and prospectus written up if it was considered feasible. --Paul]
> As for life extension chemicals, perhaps I will have to import
> or perhaps I will go into business and start a lab. Don't know
> yet. But the government "approval" would be the least worry:
> everything would be about capital and whether there is a market for
> the services.
> [Thanks, Preston, for giving us some information about Belize and
> what you find sufficiently worthwhile enough to want to live there.
> Of course as you can see, there are questions we 3 hope you will
> answer. **Kitty]
[Thanks very much once again for your forthright response. --Paul]
Ok, I am working through the project atm, but I already have some
thoughts and general questions about it. I am not sure what format
to do this in, but what follows are my questions and thoughts
of certain aspects of the projects.
As the chief architect of SelfSIP and its ideas, I will respond to this and
Kitty will likely make some additional remarks.
First, let my express my appreciation to you for taking the time and making the
effort to work your way through the Project pages and to think about it. That
having been said, very few of the writings of the project are self-contained, so
it is not possible to understand how it will work (and particularly not know the
answers to your many questions below) until you have read all of it and have
then spent time to think about it and fully digest it. Therefore, it would help
if you would tell me at what stage you are in your reading whenever you ask any
---Later Note: It is now clear to me after completing all my comments that you
have not likely read the Social Meta-Needs essay beyond the nutshell description
and full abstract, you have not read the Natural Social Contract (NSC) from the
start and perhaps do not even realize that it has a Stipulations section which
further defines its defined words through their usages there and, likely you
have not even found the links to the NSC annotations (the highlighting at the
start of each definition group). This is all because you have not read the
prefacing and introductory information at the top of the NSC page. As I state
below, it is now clear that I will need to place warnings in the Critique
Section essays and the DOII about how to use the definition links from those
pages and how not to use them.---
In fact, until you are fully finished reading it all and then going over the
parts to see how they all fit together, it is premature to ask any questions at
all except respecting what you think are simple errors.
Because of this I and Kitty seriously considered rejecting this post, since the
number of questions alone told us that you could not possibly have read the
whole Social Meta-Needs essay, the NSC from the start and all its annotations.
(Either that or my vast amount of writing to explain things is totally incapable
of being understood.) I only did not reject this message because I did not want
to put off one of the few people who is willing to actually attempt to read and
understand the Project writings and ask questions about it.
This all having been said, I will respond to everything that you have said below
in one of four ways:
1) I will simply say that it is answered in the project and you need to read
further, but I may give some hints. For these questions, you should keep a list
for yourself and check them off as you see they are dealt with and/or ask
additional questions about them after you have read and digested everything.
2) I will say that it is not directly included because it is subsumed under
something else (giving the specific something else) and I may give some hints.
Once you have read in detail all about that something else, you can then ask
more questions about that or about the earlier point which I maintain is
subsumed under the something else, particularly if you still don't agree that it
is subsumed under the something else.
3) If it is something that I have missed considering, then I will acknowledge
that, thank you for the insight, and get on with the job of altering things so
it is consistently included.
4) I will directly answer the question. This response can then incur additional
After reading all your questions it is obvious that you have not read from the
start of the NSC itself. It is a waste of time to ask further questions until
you have read *all* of the core documents: The Social Meta-Needs essay, the NSC
and all its annotations. I know this is a lot of work, but there is really no
other way. --Paul]
If the victim is dead or incapacitated, how can restitution be determined?
[By all those alive who were also Harmed and/or by the Victim when and if he
recovers to adequate capacity. It will be good to have many friends who greatly
love and Value you to effectively keep you safe from being Harmed. I --Paul]
What happens if restitution can not occur or is not effected?
[Read about UnRestitutable Harm. --Paul]
What is the enforcement to ensure compliance?
[Loss of Freeman status. Remember this is for a future Society where most people
are Freemen, all Real Estate is Owned by Freemen and not being a Freeman will be
a huge loss of ability to have effective Freedom (of Available Actions) and thus
to gain Happiness. --Paul]
Can restitution be inheritable?
[By the Victim's heirs, yes, since it is effectively his Property debt. By the
Violator's heirs, no, because any assets of the Violator are indebted to his
Victims up to the limit of the full amount of Restitution. --Paul]
If restitution ends with the death of the victim, what is to prevent
the victim from just being killed to avoid the restitution?
[It doesn't unless there are no heirs or others who were Harmed by the
Violation, so the question is moot. If there are actually no heirs or others who
are Harmed by the death of the Victim, then s/he is essentially worthless so,
yes, no one would be concerned about hir death. However, I cannot imagine any
such worthless human that is so despicable that s/he has nothing to contribute
to anyone else's lifetime happiness (except for those who continually
Intentionally Harm others and such people should be eliminated from the gene
pool as quickly as possible).
Your questions above are all either answered or are clearly implied once you
have read and understood the whole system. Beyond the hints given above, it
would be best for you to try to answer them for yourself based on the
foundational principles of the entire project. --Paul]
Are there laws under this system to try and prevent things from
happening where the victim does not survive to receive restitution,
[Under this system there are no institutions and no authorities at all. There is
merely the Social Contract and its Intentionally and self Permittedly Executed
rules of Entitlement, Responsibility and methods of operation. You can call
those rules of conduct "laws" if you like, but they are highly unlike anything
that is called laws in any current society. --Paul]
What happens to marriage?
How is inheritance handled under this system?
[Both are nothing more nor less than Valid Contracts. Do not forget that Stolen
Property is not Entitled Property. --Paul]
Victim link does not point to a proper definition.
[When you find a link that does not appear to go to the right place, you will
need to tell me exactly where the link is, since there are dozens of links to
Victim throughout all the documents. The definition of Victim is under the set
for Violate. --Paul]
It seems to me after reading some of the sections that a lot of
emphasis is placed upon what is in the written and recorded and
attested contract, but at the same time there also seems to be
a great deal of reliance on what is in the mind of a Freeman
at any point of time.
[Both are true. The latter has to be so because all subjective Evaluation is
inherently individual. On the other hand, what I have tried very hard to do is
totally separate what is objectively determinable from what must necessarily be
left to the Value judgment of the individual. I envisage a high tech future when
everyone wears equipment (perhaps as a head-gear) that is continuously examining
all sights and sounds around them and transmitting it to the Internet for
backup. This will provide an objective record of everything that happens to one.
Think of the deterrence effect of having such hard evidence. --Paul]
"A Manifest Intended Action is the Available Action of a Freeman-A
which another Freeman-B is convinced is Freeman-A's Intended Action.
A Manifest Desired Effect is an Available Effect for a Freeman-A
that another Freeman-B is convinced is Freeman-A's Desired Effect.
Also Estimate, Judge, Intend, Intention, UnIntended, Decision,
Manifestly Act, IrRational."
"An Intended Action is a hypothetical Available Action of Intent,
Decided but not yet Performed, but which will be Performed in the
absence of any additional thought, Informational input or External
How is a freeman supposed to know what is in the mind of another
freeman at any point of time? I don;t see how this is possible/
If it is, how is it done? If it is not possible, how can this
document be workable in real use given all the reliance upon
what is in the mind a Freeman?
[These definitions were necessary to work out the very difficult problem of
Defendable Threat and what to do about Defensive Actions in general,
particularly to distinguish them from preemptive Actions of Responsible Harm. As
you read further you will see how it all works out. For now think of the old
code of the west. When you see someone looking at you with an intense look and
s/he goes for hir gun, then you are Entitled to go for yours and shoot hir dead.
You are not Required to kill hir if you can avoid it and choose not to, but you
are Entitled to be the Effective Cause of whatever Harm to hir you think is
necessary to prevent Harm to yourself. --Paul]
Under this system, are all rights, besides those contained in this
[No rights are abolished, they never really existed in the first place. Read the
Social Meta-Needs essay for details. The Entitlements of the Social Contracts
are very importantly different in concept than the fuzzy and inconsistent notion
of rights. --Paul]
eg, would the American constitution and all its rights?
What about Federal, State and Local laws?
[There is only the Social Contract and the Social Preferencing Actions of all
"Social Meta-Needs - those conditions common to all Full Members
of a Society which will enable each to optimally increase his
what conditions are common to all full members? this is vague and
makes it difficult to understand anything that follows from here.
Why do the conditions need to be common to all?
[The "nutshell description" is a very brief abstract. It is not meant to be
fully understandable (otherwise the full essay would be superfluous). It is
meant to give brief statement of some essential ideas and perhaps a "flavor" of
what the full paper is about. --Paul]
The nutshell description of how rights are handled is confusing:
"Rights are shown to be neither a complete nor a consistent basis for
human Liberty and are replaced by an Executed and Attested Social
Contract to implement the part of the Social Meta-Needs requiring
Why are rights "neither complete nor as a consistent basis for human Liberty?"
I don't recall reading about this in the links prior to this point.
[Actually this was already dealt with, in a preliminary way, in the Declaration
of Individual Independence (DOII) and its annotations. However, as stated above,
read the full essay to find out. And then ask if you still don't understand or
It seems you are using the initial definition links from the first critiques
documents to assume that you should be able to fully understand everything that
you read. This is not their intention. Their intention is only to provide *some*
notion of which of the many meanings of the given word that I am using. No one
can possibly understand all the nuances of all the writing until s/he is
finished reading everything (and likely not until re-reading many times to get
additional meaning together with much mental rumination). --Paul]
"Only the individual can decide right and wrong. Furthermore, even
after deciding, he can only implement such a decision on others
by the use of rational persuasion and personal example."
How do you deal with a mentally deficient person? A person
who doesn't want to follow this contract, like a terrorist?
A person bent on killing you?
[Read further to find out the answers either directly or clearly implied. The
first generally becomes a dependent (but dependency relationships are not part
of the NSC since they are judged and adjudicated totally be Social
Preferencing). With the last two you either persuade them not to Intentionally
Violate you or you or your agent kills them as a Defendable Threat to you.
If a person becomes mentally incapacitated in some way, when do they
stop becoming a Freeman?
[They do not stop unless perhaps they become an Intentional Violator and get
Freeman Status Revoked. They may become a dependent. But again this should all
be clear from the Contract. --Paul]
What happened to this person interns of this society?
[I am going to assume you mean "in terms of this Society" since otherwise I
cannot understand this question. As stated above, such a person will likely
become someone's dependent. If such a person is incapable of producing what
others value and exchanging it for hir necessities of life, and if no one values
hir sufficiently to care for hir, then s/he will die. If you don't like that
then *you* will have to organize hir care. Depending on the situation I might
even contribute a little. --Paul]
Why FreeMEN and not Freeperson or something more gender neutral?
[I knew this question would arise. I used it mainly because I think the "person"
additions to various words are really silly besides being awkward. "Person" is a
two syllable word, makes "freeperson" too long and is also used in another
meaning in the NSC. In addition, the word "freeman" is already in the dictionary
with a meaning that is quite close to the one that I have assigned to it. Think
of it as short for free-human.
I regard this penchant for substituting "person" for "man" all over the place as
pointlessly silly and not at all addressing the root problem. There are other
species for which the general term and the masculine are the same name - eg,
dogs (with only bitch as the feminine) and even some with the generic name as
the feminine name and a separate masculine name (eg cat and tomcat).
So wrt "Freeman", I thought it best to have a short snappy word with an already
similar meaning rather than to invent a totally new word. In the old social
contract I began with "adult" and also defined "individual", but I discarded
them both for various reasons. If you can come up with another short word with
an appropriate vernacular meaning, I am certainly open to change. --Paul]
[I concur with Paul and did so on this subject long before I even knew of him,
let alone had any exchanges with him (beginning in 1999). The insistence by some
people (usually women but sometimes men) that the use of the word "man" does not
include women is without substance. This is true only in discussions of
attributes specifically true for men only, such as the possession of certain
anatomy and not others. The use of Freeman should have no sexist connotation to
anyone who understands that "man" in this context refers to humans. Though
if/when an individual of another species demonstrates its desire and ability to
execute the NSC with a Freeman attesting to that execution, then the word
Freeman would extend in meaning beyond humans. **Kitty]
[How about then "Freent" or "Freeind". The last is particularly attractive since
it almost looks like "friend" and most certainly Freeman would be more likely to
be friends with each other, at least to the extent of having a solid basis for
friendship through sharing very important principles and methods of InterAction,
rather than the superficial things that most people regard as a basis for
Is this contract intended to be all encompassing
and not requiring additional amendments or additions to this contract
If no, what mechanism is provided to accommodate this?
[It is always open for change. If errors or omission are found, these will be
fixed/included. If modifications are suggested that are fully consistent with
the Theory of Social Meta-Needs and clearly lead to more Liberty, more Freedom
and more Lifetime Happiness for all these will be incorporated to make a better
and more complete NSC.
In the end, those who want a different Social Contract simply Execute a
different one. There is no reason why there cannot be competing Social Contracts
with some people having Executed several in order to be able to Interact well
with those who have Executed only one of them. In fact, in the transition period
from the current society to the Freeman Society being the vast majority, I
expect there will be a lot of more Constraining Social Contracts that are much
closer to the way the current society works, simply because very few will be
able to fully understand or willing to accept the major changes in the way
society works which are entailed by the Natural Social Contract as it is now.
However, these interim "stepping-stone" contracts must come after the ultimate
one is worked out (or as closely as can be done at this stage). Otherwise how
can those wanting a truly stable free society where they can aspire to and hope
to achieve maximal happiness even know what to aim for? --Paul]
[This is also covered within the NSC annotations. **Kitty]
are there individuals that are less than full members? how are they described?
[They are either outside of the Freeman Society or they are Owned dependents.
See the link from the NSC Intro annotation. --Paul]
"Status of the Freeman himself"<-----------this correct?
why is it not gender neutral?
[Since the NSC is written as a formal Valid Contract, all usages are the gender
neutral (masculine) form as noted in the introduction to it. --Paul]
[The last of the introduction paragraphs of the NSC itself covers this. **Kitty]
If it is not a Valid Contract what is it?
[Please read further to understand. Only Valid Contracts are recognized by the
what does it mean to be recorded?
[In what way is that not obvious? Either by writings, images, sounds, or
electronic means reproducible as those. If it were possible to record odors,
touches or tastes then they could also be used. --Paul]
Can non-action be considered A DisInvolvement? What about silence?
[The first (and the second if there is no other reciprocal Connection Action)
both mean that there is not yet any Involvement, since the Connection Initiation
has not been returned. Therefore no DisInvolvement is necessary except as a
means to prevent further Connection Initiation which would then be at least the
Violation of Interruption Harm. --Paul]
What defines DisInvolvement? Who determines when it happens?
[Read further into the NSC and its annotations. --Paul]
Is intent to DisInvolve important and is it a valid form of
[No. Actual Actions and their Effects are generally the only things that count.
Intent is only relevant to Violation or Defendable Threat. --Paul]
How is a Freeman agent described and created? What are the powers of
this agent? Duration?
[Read further into the NSC and its annotations. --Paul]
[The above link is not related to Duress and you have made the same error with
several included links below. I have changed them to the correct link. This one
is: http://selfsip.org/solutions/NSC.html#duress --Paul]
"Duress is the State of one Freeman-A (the Duressee) with respect to
another Freeman-B (the Duressor) when:
1. Freeman-A perceives and Performs Defense against a Defendable Threat to him
by Freeman-B, or Freeman-B's Agent, and Freeman-B
is not currently a Duressee with respect to Freeman-A;"
What happens if Freeman-B IS currently a Duressee with respect to
[Think about what that would imply! It would mean that Freeman-A was a Violator
or Defendable Threatener of Freeman-B and that Freeman-B's Action perceived by
Freeman-A was actually an Entitled Action of Defense and therefore, not an
Action capable of being Duressful. --Paul]
Who makes this determination?
[Initially the person initiating any Action (a Freeman is always the Responsible
Agent for all hir Actions), but ultimately the Trial Decision Process, and even
more ultimately all Freemen by their Acts of Social Preferencing. This should
all become clear as you read further into the NSC and its annotations. --Paul]
what happens after execution that terms are ambiguous?
Does intent start to play a role? How is this determined?
[I really don't understand your question here (even if it relates to Contract or
Execution rather than to Connect), but as before I urge you to read further and
then see if you still have problems. --Paul]
Who determines if a violation is permissible to take to trial?
Any restrictions? What prevents a Freeman from using it as a weapon?
Who pays for the trial?
[Read further into the NSC and its annotations. --Paul]
If a jury is 1 or more how can a 1 person jury be considered just?
and if the jury is 2 people how can there be a simple majority?
What happens if they deadlock?
[Read further into the NSC and its annotations. Particularly examine the
definition of Trial Decision Process. --Paul]
"A Breach Jury is any set of one or more Freemen who, by a simple
majority, make all Findings related to Breach Charges Determined
at a Trial."
Will there be a standard set of procedures for all trials?
Who will create and maintain them if yes, if no, then how can
Freemen get unbiased justice if the trial process is not unbiased?
[Read further into the NSC and its annotations. Based on these questions and
prior ones, I do not think that you have yet read any of the Stipulations in the
NSC. The definitions are not self-contained (and neither are those is any
dictionary). The NSC is like an axiomatic system with the whole needed to fully
define all the parts. I say this specifically in the Introduction of the NSC
"...Determination and the Procedures."
Procedures link is not correct I think.
[Yes it is. Procedures is simply another name for Processes and is listed as
such under the definition set for Event, to which the link points. --Paul]
"Guidelines are optional Stipulations."
What is the purpose and effect of not following them.
[Guidelines are suggestions to make things flow better. But are not mandatory
(as are Stipulations that are Requirements). If a Stipulation is a Guideline (it
does not include one of the words Mandatory, Must, Will, Do, Am, Shall, Agree,
Promise) and one does not follow it then one is not committing a Violation or a
Breach of the NSC, but one may still be Socially Preferenced against. The NSC is
only *part* of the methods of operation of a Freeman Society - the formal part.
Social Preferencing is the informal but actually more important part. --Paul]
Why make them part of an official contract then? Doesn't it just muddy
the water so to speak? Shouldn't the contract be narrowly constructed
to ensure no chance of misunderstandings?
[Yes and no. Every Contract begins with some kind of general descriptive
information about why the Parties are contracting with each other. There is no
ambiguity or "muddied waters" as long as it is clear what are guidelines and
what are Stipulations of Entitlement and Responsibility/Requirement. --Paul]
"...causes him to be In Breach of the Contract which includes it (ie. it is a
Requirement of the contract)..."
What is a Requirement of the contract? it is not defined under the contract.
[Yes, it is. Read again the definitions under Responsibility. And read the
Stipulations of the NSC that are its Requirements. --Paul]
[In fact, the NSC is best read the first time starting at the WhereAs sections,
skipping over the definitions section. This is the method that is highly
recommended in the Introduction to the NSC because it will give the first time
reader a better overall view of The Contract. Definitions are intended that
first time to be consulted (by clicking on a link) only when needed to clarify
"...Penalty Clause (if any) for that specific failure."
What is a Penalty Clause, it is not defined under the contract.
[Again it is. I think that you are confusing the definition of a term with an
example of the definition within the NSC. Read the Stipulations in Section D:
"Breach, Arbitration and Termination of The Contract". The only Penalty Clause
for the NSC is related to Breach. --Paul]
"...Hereafter in The Contract,"
Hereafter what? What does this refer to? this is under a definition,
how can there be a hereafter in this position of the document?
[It seems obvious to me that it means from that point onward in the reading of
the NSC from start to finish (top of the page to the bottom of the page). You
should not be trying to use or understand these definitions as stand alone
items. Even dictionary definitions are necessarily circular. The NSC is
necessarily constructed as an axiomatic system with technical terms that are
initially undefined and gain their meanings only in their Relationship to one
another. This has been the standard for axiomatic systems ever since Euclid's
Geometry. All contracts are actually in this form but this is not generally
emphasized or even understood. If the US Constitution had been constructed in
this form there would have been much less ambiguity about it and it would not
have been nearly as distortable as it has turned out to be.
Again if you had started at the beginning and read the NSC Intro and its
annotation this would be all clear. I can see now that I will have to place
clear notes in the Critique Section Documents and in the DOII that the NSC is in
this form and its definitions cannot be fully understood understood until it is
read from start to finish. --Paul]
"within a Social Contract to facilitate the achievement of the Social
Meta-Needs - the Members of the Society."
Do you mean a Full Member here? Full implies that there is some other
level of member? If this is not other level. then this
is confusing IMO to use full here.
[The text that you have quoted is taken from the abstract of the Social
Meta-Needs Essay - http://selfsip.org/fundamentals/socialmetaneeds.html
As such it is not meant to be complete and self contained.
However, you need to read the definition of "Freeman Society", the definition of
"Member" under Existent (a Member is merely an element of some set) and the
definition of "Society" under System. The Members of the Freeman Society as a
System are not only Freemen but also all things Owned by Freemen or of which a
Freeman has Entitled Possession or Control. Freemen are Full Members, but the
term is not further used since it adds nothing to the term Freeman. Perhaps I
should omit it altogether, but I wanted something that distinguished Freemen
from non-self Property of Freemen, particularly from dependents (pets, children,
etc, which are Members of the Freeman Society that are not Freemen.
Note that "dependents" is purposefully left undefined in the NSC. With respect
to the NSC there is no difference between a human dependent and any other
Property. Any difference in treatment is left up to Social Preferencing by
others to judge and adjudicate. I know this is hard to take, but read everything
before protesting. It is one reason why I do not expect most people to be
willing to sign the NSC until many decades have passed and they have worked
their way up to it through more Constraining Social Contracts (the "stepping
stones" referred to above). --Paul]
[I initially had some difficulty with the ideas Paul has presented and asked
many questions as he verbalized them and then even when I was reviewing his
writing. However, the more I thought about them and discussed them with him (and
a couple other individuals who read and commented on earlier versions), I came
to understand how much these ideas are a considerable paradigm shift for
probably most people currently above the age of 20. They have been raised with
the idea that behavior must be dictated by rules given either by a diety or a
government and that any lack of these would lead to chaos. It is like children
being raised to think that they must always have parents and can never be
capable of using their own minds to care for themselves. It will almost
certainly take much more mental effort for older humans to unlearn their
previous thinking and accept the SelfSIP paradigm than for children and possibly
very young adults to see the naturalness of the system. **Kitty]
Stipulations link points to the Contract explanation, how does this
explain Stipulations? Are stipulations the contract?
[I will check the link. Stipulations should point to "Clause". --Paul]
[The link of Stipulations (5 total in the SMN essay at this time out 8 usages of
the word) go to the definition set for Contract (xii). The first group of words
in this set are: "Valid Contract; Party", the second is "Stipulation; Clause;
Rule". There are 8 more subsections to this definition set, for a total of 10 -
all of which have their own coding identifier (for referral from other places)
but go to the same annotation file when the reader clicks on the colored
background of those headings (as is explained in the Introduction of the NSC).
The link has now been fixed in the 2 places in the SMN theory essay's abstract.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention, since an automatic link checker will
not identify an incorrect link, only one that doesn't exist. **Kitty]
"An Entitlement (also Claim) is a Benefit that a Party to a Contract
receives (or is Entitled to receive) from that Party or those Parties
to the Contract that are Responsible to provide it (make it available
or transfer it to him)."
In the above, can a non Freeman be a party or parties to the contract?
[No. It would not then be a Valid Contract and adjudicatable by the NSC. A
Freeman can have a agreement with a non-Freeman, and the agreement could even be
adjudicated by agreed arbitrators, but such an agreement would be entirely
outside the NSC. See the definition of Permission for mention of this. --Paul]
If yes, how does this occur if they cannot make a
valid contract in the first place because they are not freemen?
Can a non freeman hold an Entitlement?
[Not under the NSC. Only under some other Social Contract that s/he Executes.
S/he might be a freeman 2nd class, a subfreeman or some such designation.
Presumably s/he is at the stage of those stepping stone Social Contracts, not
yet willing to Execute the NSC and become a Freeman. --Paul]
"Responsibilities are any or all of Actions, Processes, Events and
Effects which some Party to a Contract is Required either to Perform
or to create."
Are inactions or requests not to perform an action also covered here?
[Yes, in the sense that a lack of Action can never be a Violation unless the
Action is specified as a Stipulation in a Contract. For example, you have no
Responsibility to save a drowning Freeman, unless that Freeman had Contracted
with you for such a service. The Social InterAction examples, being worked on
but yet to come, will make this very clear. However, the NSC also makes it clear
by its omission. --Paul]
Are Responsibilities as used here also considered requirements as
asked about by me above?
[Yes, the two are synonymous. I use several synonymous words for many terms
because different words fit better into different sentence structures. And I
want the NSC, its annotations and all discussion about it to read as reasonably
as possible since there are already so many far out ideas in it. You are
beginning to get somewhere :-) --Paul]
"An Action is said to be Outside a Process, when it is not one of the
Actions composing the Process, otherwise the Action is said to be
Inside the Process."
Something like this seems to need a quick example if possible.
I am at a loss to what could be considered outside vs inside.
[Neither you nor anyone else is expected to fully understand the definitions
without reading the annotations. However, I thought this was obvious enough that
I don't think an example is in the annotation for this definition set.
A Process is a combination of Actions. A specific Action is then Outside if it
is not one of the Actions of which the Process is composed. Otherwise it is
Inside. Pruning the tress is not an Action which is Inside the Process of baking
a cake. --Paul]
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