From Olehenry1@... Wed Jul 15 08:47:29 2009
Return-Path: <Olehenry1@...>
Received: (qmail 18148 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2009 15:46:36 -0000
Received: from unknown (98.137.34.46)
by m3.grp.sp2.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Jul 2009 15:46:36 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO n37b.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com) (66.163.168.151)
by mta3.grp.sp2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jul 2009 15:46:36 -0000
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoogroups.com; s=lima; t=1247672781; bh=2bOOqi9Q9ZXX3Qq91nvyjuRqC0fhmMkmEpP2S6m4YuQ=; h=Received:Received:X-Sender:X-Apparently-To:X-Received:X-Received:X-Received:X-Received:X-Received:X-Received:Date:To:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:User-Agent:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-Originating-IP:X-eGroups-Msg-Info:X-Yahoo-Post-IP:From:Subject:X-Yahoo-Group-Post:X-Yahoo-Profile:X-YGroups-SubInfo:X-eGroups-Edited-By:Sender:X-eGroups-Approved-By:X-eGroups-Auth; b=NdLAvs5q+vg5An6slhD2+nR91ypMPqFYhE02P2uWKFMzwuvBVpmT9QaLymznOpmf9IXr0IzghNaWNqTQtxWunji9kHYPCI6wqftJERb8e4S5Twtcp+2xWgeJO7M1cVau
Received: from [69.147.65.174] by n37.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Jul 2009 15:46:21 -0000
Received: from [98.137.34.33] by t12.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Jul 2009 15:46:21 -0000
X-Sender: Olehenry1@...
X-Apparently-To: morelife@yahoogroups.com
X-Received: (qmail 80121 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2009 05:14:46 -0000
X-Received: from unknown (98.137.34.45)
by m3.grp.sp2.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Jul 2009 05:14:46 -0000
X-Received: from unknown (HELO n5-vm6.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com) (67.195.135.101)
by mta2.grp.sp2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jul 2009 05:14:46 -0000
X-Received: from [67.195.134.239] by n5.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Jul 2009 05:14:36 -0000
X-Received: from [69.147.65.147] by t4.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Jul 2009 05:14:36 -0000
X-Received: from [98.137.34.184] by t10.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Jul 2009 05:14:36 -0000
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 05:14:35 -0000
To: morelife@yahoogroups.com
Message-ID: <h3jojr+5bu0@eGroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <4A4E81FF.8030706@...>
User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster
X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system
X-Originating-IP: 67.195.135.101
X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0:0
X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 65.101.30.71
From: "David Thomas Jackemeyer" <Olehenry1@...>
Subject: Re: Blood draw preparation [was: The necessity of enjoyment of doing [was: vigorous exercise followed by single meal
X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=40386604; y=IZtzcNv4Hmt0CymJN0KpTGO0a9YmjxPOuQRIpkdYyDA4J5J1
X-Yahoo-Profile: olehenry1
X-YGroups-SubInfo: t=0;f=64;g=none;
X-eGroups-Edited-By: paulwakfer <paul@...>
X-eGroups-Approved-By: kittyaw <kitty@...> via web; 15 Jul 2009 15:46:18 -0000
Meta
Hi Paul
Hi Kitty,
When I preview this message, it's a mess! I have not changed any
settings in either Yahoo Groups nor Thunderbird Compose. Any thoughts?
Possibly the preview is inaccurate and you will receive a well-groomed
message...
-Jack
[Except that your response lines were not ended by hard returns (Yahoo
seems to have stopped inserting these for a text only group), which
are easy enough to insert, the formatting, as received in Kitty's
email notice and in the group queue, is perfect. --Paul]
/Meta
--- In morelife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wakfer <paul@...> wrote:
>
> On 07/01/2009 10:51 PM, David Thomas Jackemeyer wrote:
> > This is a response to a portion of message 1964.
> >
> >>> An example involving a physical-psychological phenomenon: I have
> >>> never enjoyed drawing blood, even for a small sample used for
> >>> determining my blood content and their respective concentrations. I
> >>> would like to respond differently, more focused on the benefits
> >>> (rather than the sickening feeling of being sucked dry) and less
> >>> likely to steer away from opportunities to learn more about my body.
> >>>
> >> I think it is unlikely that *anyone* actually enjoys the direct
> >> process
> >> of having blood taken from hir body. It is slightly painful (as is any
> >> puncture wound), but that should be all the harm that you
> >> physiologically receive. It the phlebotomist is competent, then that
> >> should be the only negative of the process.
> >>
> > I can recall only competent blood draws, yet I've always experienced
> > some sort of "shut down" by my body.
>
> Since most humans do not experience this and it is hard to even imagine
> any physiological cause for it, the experience is almost certainly a
> psychosomatic (literally mind-body) result of your mind and the anxiety
> within it. But such mind generated causes are ultimately under your
> conscious and reprogrammed subconscious control.
I understand that my "anxiety attack" is something I am creating in subconscious, likely as a response to avoid pain or suffering. More below...
> >> Any "sickening feeling of
> >> being sucked dry" is merely your own emotional (psychological) baggage
> >> (it is a very tiny amount of your total blood, so the whole idea of
> >> being "sucked dry" is simply nonsense) which you can and would
> >> best work to eliminate.
> >>
> > I have tried lying in bed at night and envisioning the mechanics of the
> > draw, and to date I have been surprised at how anxious I get right
> > there in the bed, tensing up, breathing shallow and quickly.
>
> First, quit even imagining the "mechanics" of the draw. Simply dwell
> on all the peripheral events involved and the benefits of the whole.
OK, I'll start here, but do you mean all together?
I planned to continue learning the "mechanics", only stopping before
or during a draw. I have enjoyed reading about and envisioning how
the skin organ and vein are disturbed by the entry of the needle,
followed by platelet plug formation and blood coagulation at the
vessel walls, etc.
> Second, squelch any anxiety by strongly telling yourself what an idiot
> you are to feel that way and how counterproductive it is again because
> of all the benefits of the blood letting and the test results.
"How counterproductive", agreed.
I don't understood why you use "idiot" since the word does not apply
to me, since in present day refers to those with especially abnormally
poor intellects. The Greek "idiote" referred to one who was static in
hir learning of subjects outside of hir "private station". I could
become that idiote if I ceased to educate myself; for example, I could
move back to Indiana and live on my father's farm as a Jack-of-all-trades.
Why do you choose to use "idiot"?
> Think
> about all the times that you have cut, scraped or otherwise caused your
> skin to be punctured and bleed profusely and how these did not cause you
> to have this same shut down due to anxiety.
Thanks for the suggestion of considering examples, of which I realize
if and only if I watched the puncture event did I react with anxiety.
All other times I react as you describe:
> In fact, likely quite the
> opposite, your reaction was either to ignore it if small (sometimes not
> even to consciously be aware of its existence until much later,
> particularly if you were intent on a particular task while the
> cut/scrape occurred) or, if large, to immediately take action to stem
> the blood flow and patch the wound. Why should there be any difference
> (except from a foolish mind) between the exact same thing being caused
> by an intentional act rather than a chance accident or error of
> carelessness.
Great suggestions for consideration (intentional vs not).
> > I have attended two blood draws within the past year, one where the
> > needle was very small and the phlebotomist very competent, one
> > where the
> > needle was relatively large and the phlebotomist new but fairly steady.
> >
> > I definitely had a greater physical response (much like the one
> > described above) to the draw with a larger needle.
>
> You are making a major mistake by even looking at the needles or any
> other mechanics of the draw. I can do this with interest and without
> anxiety problems and so I do this to get added benefit from the
> procedure - partly to myself to be able to do a venipuncture for IV
> purposes, if I ever need to. However, Kitty, even though a former
> registered nurse, is still a little squeamish about having herself
> intentionally pricked and purposefully does not watch the mechanics of
> the procedure but rather keeps her eyes and mind on something else.
> Perhaps long after you have stopped this anxiety attack from occurring
> during blood draws, then you will be able to once more view the
> mechanics and gain the added benefits of doing so.
Your last sentence is my hope!
> [I agree with Paul. The best thing I would suggest under your
> circumstances, which are similar reactions to what I experienced in the
> past, is to *not* look at the phlebotomist preparing for or actually
> doing the procedure. I converse with hir on other or even related
> matters, but purposely do not look.
Funny thing is that until recently, I thought this technique was my
evasion of reality, so I decided to cut the small talk, etc., instead
taking interest in the mechanics by watching with deep interest and
asking the professionals about the strategies/methods. Maybe I "took
too large of a bite".
> This method and the others that I
> took when I first joined Paul have enabled me to have venipunctures for
> multiple tubes of blood without any of the awful sensations - and even
> blacking out - that occurred in the past. I don't spend any time
> thinking about the actual procedure itself - I think that this too is
> important. Maybe sometime in the future I will look, but I'm not
> especially motivated to doing so. Everything goes quite well now and
> that is my interest.
Do you think about the procedure when far from having a blood draw?
> Another suggestion, is requesting that a draw, which will require
> multiple test tubes for samples, be done using a butterfly.
Interesting, thanks for the suggestion -- I will inquire.
> This is a
> very small bore needle attached to flexible tubing that enables the
> phlebotomist to change test tubes without disturbing the needle in the
> vein. I regularly request this since the sensation at the venipuncture
> site when the test tube is changed is not at all pleasant to me and I
> think it has in the past contributed to the anxiousness I have
> experienced. Phlebotomists do not want a patient to pass out, so if
> you firmly request a butterfly for that reason, they will almost
> always readily comply. Yes, this extends the time it takes to complete
> the withdrawal of blood - but not greatly - and a phlebotomist in a
> hurry may balk. But if you insist, s/he will not refuse to comply.
> **Kitty]
>
> > Since many years ago, I have always prepared myself with very positive
> > thoughts about the usefulness of the draw along with the interesting
> > physics of pressure differences between vein and tube/needle, plus I
> > always watch the needle enter and leave.
>
> At least for the time being until the anxiety has been eliminated, you
> would do best to totally quit thinking about and watching the mechanics
> of the draw.
>
> Jack, having observed for some years now, both your actions and your
> descriptions of your thoughts and feelings, it appears to me that you
> have a strongly ingrained approach to yourself as an outside spectator
> viewing the strange but very interesting actions of another person. In
> fact, you are so fascinated by the activities of this other person
> (actually yourself in this case) that you do not wish to interfere and
> cause any changes to that other person. IOW, rather than directly
> experiencing the life you are living, you act as a vicarious and
> dilettante spectator of your own life.
I agree that at times I have practiced delightful examination of my
activities, since I have become interested in dealing with two
difficulties: 1) making sure my presentations were palatable and 2)
discovering actions that conflicted with my intentions.
For an example regarding 1), when I've given a presentation of something important to me, I am often nervous that
a) I am considered far beneath those in attendance, and
b) none of them (know how to) care to participate in my development.
In class, at a lab meeting, and at Meetup groups, I get the sense that
most are inwardly obsessed and socially careless. Since I notice this
attitude often, I want to do my best to not exaggerate the distance
between myself and them by replacing a set of poor habits that are
related to protecting myself from embarrassing jesters (stemming from
middle and high school experiences).
Instead of self-protection, I hope redirect my focus toward reading
the audience well and coupling this with a presentation that draws
them (as many as possible) in for a deeply meaningful exchange, both
in terms of fully addressing the subject and my own personal growth in
presenting information for consideration.
To address this, I watch myself and look for distracting qualities; I
also attempt to model others who I consider to be inviting and
intriguing. I do gain delight in real-time self-reflection.
It is possible that I spend too much time doing this and also for the
wrong reasons (e.g. to make sure I look pop-culturally attractive).
Vicariously, I highly doubt; the concept suggests that I am
developing a second personality, one that can mostly independently
judge the original. In addition to doubt, I am confused why you have
chosen this word; if you have the interest and time, will you
elucidate?
> I urge you to do your utmost to
> stop this approach. Get fully involved with and fully connected to
> your life instead of merely viewing its passing scene. Life is for fully
> living and directly experiencing rather than for amused vicarious
> titillation. It may be okay to view the lives of others as merely actors
> on a big stage (although to the extent that their actions also affect
> you this too is not conducive to increasing your lifetime happiness),
> but it is most certainly a grave and anti-life error to view your own
> life that way.
Intuitively, I think I had been doing both, fully living and delightfully
studying my responses.
I am fascinated that I do become so deeply engaged in some activities
whereas others are sleep-inducing (yawns, disinterest, much reduced
excitement for the moment). More surprising is that I can create a
philosophy that discourages most reasoning for participation in an
activity, say playing basketball, and then demand of myself that I
cease a particular action for two years -- yet -- that activity,
basketball, might bring me hours of continuous joy, even after the two
year drought!
Likewise, I can create a philosophy that brings to the top the most
important reasoning for participation in an activity such as learning
about my body/health/wellness, and then demand of myself that I
practice the related activities for two years -- yet-- I will cease
that activity 100% the day after two years and feel no loss!
I like to watch and analyze myself now and then to discover the secrets
to my failures and successes.
> > I typically am slightly tense
> > just before the needle goes in, then I wait a little bit (breath,
> > breath), then a rush of something comes over my body accompanied by
> > emphysema-like shortness of breath and I feel warned that I am in
> > danger
> > ("sucked dry" is what I used before, but it's not clearly related to
> > blood loss, maybe something to do with "invasion" too -- hard to say
> > because there are no relevant thoughts prior to or during).
>
> Have you never had a splinter or other foreign object "invade" your body
> accidentally or due to carelessness? When this occurred did you feel
> the same anxiety of "invasion" over that occurrence?
Only if I visually witnessed the puncture -- to this day, I can
vividly recall two 15-18 year-old acquaintances of mine wrestling for
control of a tool they each found in the basement of their home -- it
had a long wooden handle, like that of a garden hoe and the end
equipped with a metal hook. I visually witnessed the hook end enter
(1/4 to 1/2 inch) and leave the right calf of the older (brother).
Even though it happened to someone else, I experienced the suddenly
intense response.
I can recall one vivid visual removal of 1/2 inch of Honey Locust thorn http://www.mitzenmacher.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/01/thorn.jpg
from the area just below my knee cap. That caused quite a horrified
reaction as I yanked it out and immediately after as I comprehended
the entry and removal of the thorn.
All other foreign objects (splinters, scratches, etc) that I do not
see enter, do not bother me a bit (besides some pain). All rougher
damage that I do see, such as deep scratches, smaller thorns with
barbs, splinters, etc. do not bother me either.
> If you did not
> (as I am pretty sure is the case) then your mind is just being foolish
> to react differently to the exact same occurrence happening in a
> controlled manner rather than by chance. Tell yourself that and try
> your best to eliminate it every time you have that emotion. (Note that
> I am not talking here about a major stab wound or other trauma which
> can result in both great pain and immediate major blood loss, both of
> which will physiologically cause immediate blood pressure reduction
> and possible loss of consciousness, but rather the scrapes and cuts
> that a person as active as yourself gets as a part of everyday living,
> particularly for someone who uses tools.)
I agree that I have been acting counter to my values, and for some
unknown reasons, treating similar occurrences very differently, which
is wrong.
I do not consider myself foolish nor idiotic however. IMO, these two
terms should be reserved for one who cannot improve hir intellect.
Those who can improve intellect yet lack in judgment and act contrary
to their values can be described with words such as naive and immature.
The last "note" is understood.
> > When this first happened to me (my first blood draw in many years,
> > between 12 and 16 years ago), I was naive about the whole process.
> > Again, I watched the needle go in and was slightly tense from the pain
> > but really just naive, and suddenly in a few seconds, that same rush
> > came over me. I ended up blacking out (sweating profusely and reality
> > almost disappeared into a small round dot), followed by recovery
> > within
> > minutes, though I was still weak in the knees from the novelty.
> >
> > I was shocked and interested in why it happened. "Low sugar" and
> > "sudden drop in blood pressure", were suggested, with only the blood
> > pressure drop making any sense to me.
> > Is it possible that my initial anxiety causes a drop in blood pressure,
> > further escalating my anxiety, like a feedback loop?
>
> The anxiety attack is sufficiently intense to initiate release of blood
> pressure decreasing hormones. No feedback was necessary and did not
> likely occur because the lower BP could not cause any immediate
> psychological anxiety. It is the opposite of the fight or flight effect,
> which increases heart rate and BP.
>
> >> As with any other irrational emotion, you work to
> >> reprogram yourself so that it no longer occurs. You do this by first
> >> having at your mind's edge, all the positive reasons why getting blood
> >> drawn is beneficial to you and even the benefits of the process itself
> >> (enjoying the interesting mechanics of it: the competence of your body
> >> pumping out the blood to fill the tubes, the competent work of the
> >> phlebotomist and the technically neat way that such a blood draw
> >> can be
> >> accomplished, the friendly chatting with hir, particularly if s/he is
> >> someone who you see regularly, the way your own competent body
> >> quickly seals and heals the puncture).
> >
> > These are VERY helpful, thank you. I am practicing these perspectives
> > and learning more details of the healing puncture.
>
> Except note that I have now changed my recommendations to totally cease
> any thinking about or interest in the mechanics of the procedure, at
> least until you have eliminated all anxiety.
Noted.
> > I have a blood draw for LEF/Labcorp to accomplish this month...
> >
> >> So as soon as this "sickening
> >> feeling" occurs you tell yourself what an idiot you are to feel this
> >> way, you strongly squelch and deny the feeling (effectively tell it to
> >> "get lost and do not bother me any more"), you then concentrate on
> >> all the
> >> short and long range positives of the procedure and its end results.
> >>
> > Thank you -- I will practice this as well, maybe even write it on an
> > index card for reminders in case I distract myself with other
> > thoughts.
> > I have not been well-focused in past personal blood draws thus
> > inviting hazard to the outcome, so being prepared and maintaining
> > focus will help.
>
> Not just focus, but also distraction of your thoughts away from the
> mechanics of the blood draw.
>
> > (Thanks for the word "hazard" -- I gained it from your exchange
> > with Chad)
>
> Good, both to the word and to the news that you read the exchange.
>
> >> If
> >> you keep doing this, then in time the emotion will be eradicated
> >> and you
> >> will be *free* of it (similar to the way your immune system rids your
> >> body of a pathogen - an inconsistent emotion is a pathogen of the
> >> mind).
> >>
> > "Pathogen of the mind" -- I will remember this :)
>
> It is another one of those potentially problematic metaphors, but in
> this case I think it is a sufficiently accurate correspondence to be
> useful.
>
> >> Actually, I have been through all this before in past posts on the
> >> subject of changing emotional habits, so I am surprised that you
> >> did not
> >> realize that those posts about other emotions and emotions in general
> >> apply to this one also. You must sometime get to the point where you
> >> fully understand that your emotions do not come out of nowhere and are
> >> not in control of you, but rather they are products of your values and
> >> rational thoughts and are totally under your control with respect to
> >> making them consistent with those values and thoughts.
> >>
> > I recognized the similar methods and have been practicing a few as I
> > described above. However, I have not *strongly* squelched or denied
> > feelings before, as I always thought of them as interesting in
> > addition
> > to debilitating. I gained some happiness from considering the strange
> > phenomenon,
>
> These last two sentences, in the light of my previous experiences with
> you, are what caused me to think that you are far too much a vicarious
> spectator of your own life events rather than a direct experiencer of
> those events. I say "far too much" because some such self analysis and
> introspection is definitely both enjoyable and useful - I have certainly
> done lots of that and continue to do so. However, because it is almost
> always done afterward the events being recollected and analyzed, my
> self observation and analysis does not prevent me from also directly
> experiencing my life events, but rather helps me to put them into
> perspective, to understand them and to help/modify them to be more
> successful in similar future circumstances.
I am glad that you are thinking about me and offering critical
analyses for my consideration. I expand/explain a little above and I
have no intention of brushing aside your comments; instead, I am
deliberately considering what you have shared and looking for
opportunities to practice directly experiencing events coupled with an
awareness to postpone introspection to afterward.
Thank you for the suggestions!
> > but I also realize that I have missed out on much more
> > happiness regarding future blood draws.
>
> I hope you will now give some thought to this being a symptom of more
> "missing out" than of merely the benefits from blood draws.
I am thinking about it.
--David Jackemeyer
> > --David Jackemeyer
> > (left the remainder for context and review)
>
> I also left it in for now.
>
> --Paul
Hi Morelife community, I confess, I have been lurking (read, as a twist on the pronounciation: looking) at the messages since summer concluded, hoping,...
... It took me many decades to learn that my happiness and overall productivity are higher when I do not forsake things that I really *would like* to be doing,...
... You suggest that I am not striking a good balance between practicing what I like to do and what I ought to do. I have witnessed others (you and Kitty,...
Note: Once again this message has become split into two quite separate issues. I have therefore responded separately to these. This is the first such response....
Hi Paul and Kitty I hope you are both well Regarding Hazlitt's books and especially "Thinking as a science", it seems that they can be read online here: ...
This is a response to a portion of message 1964. ... I can recall only competent blood draws, yet I've always experienced some sort of "shut down" by my body. ...
... Since most humans do not experience this and it is hard to even imagine any physiological cause for it, the experience is almost certainly a psychosomatic...
Meta Hi Paul Hi Kitty, When I preview this message, it's a mess! I have not changed any settings in either Yahoo Groups nor Thunderbird Compose. Any...
On 07/15/2009 01:14 AM, David Thomas Jackemeyer wrote: Meta Snipped meta comments. /Meta ... Its intensity may be connected to some of the vividly recalled ...
... I can now recall one incompetent phlebotomist...more about this near the end of this message. ... This last sentence is what I have been "taking ownership"...
... Exactly! There is a real sense in which the human brain/mind is at once several distinct and somewhat independent entities. All of these entities can be...
This is my response to the second part of the original for which the subject title is still appropriate. ... <big snip of what was previously responded to> ......
... per day ... Yahoo Group ... extent ... activities of ... interfere with ... by at ... get into ... I agree with Paul here. Jack, I don't know how familiar...
META: Again my response to the original message will be in two parts since the original has two unrelated content portions. This message is a response to the...
... This last part helped me understand that the increase in gluconeogenesis is fueled by amino acids liberated during autophagy -- I did not understand the...
... One point that Olafur did not mention is that if a person has stores of easily available triacylglycerols, then glucose (and other other ATP production...
META I apologize for the delay in posting this (it should have come before Jack's recent reply to the same message). I had composed it almost immediately, but...
Having problems with message search?
Fill out this form to ensure your group is one of the first to be migrated to the new message search system.
Offline 
Send Email
