Responses in bold below

[Meta
MoreLife Yahoo is a strictly text group because otherwise, any editing
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In any case you do not need to do anything special either when using
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/Meta --Paul]

--- In morelife@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Antonik Wakfer" <paul@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Chad,
>
> I am very pleased to get your email.
> I respond inline below to everything that you say. I am convinced that
> such inline and complete response is the hallmark of a forthright
> person who wants to be as clear and direct as possible (which
> certainly describes me and Kitty). I therefore require this kind of
> response method from all correspondents (at least after the first few
> rounds of dialog and after it has been explained to the person), or I
> simply social preference against that person by refusing to continue
> dialog with hir (him/her). However, I am always open to reasoned
> argument contrary to this position. (This is stated in more detail in
> the policy files section of the Yahoo group MoreLife.)
>
> I note that you have now joined MoreLife Yahoo, so rather than respond
> to this email please wait until I have placed it on that group as a
> message and then respond there after you have fulfilled the posting
> identification requirements of the group.

Good Idea

> On 06/09/2009 09:43 PM, Chad Nelson wrote:
> > I learned about you through one of the forum posts at www.mises.org
> > <http://www.mises.org/> a couple months ago.
>
> I think that I can guess which one, but I would like to know for sure,
> please. And even better would be to know what about the post attracted
> you to investigate further.

The article I was reading was: http://blog.mises.org/archives/009840.asp
<http://blog.mises.org/archives/009840.asp>

> This information will be valuable to me
> because I am having some difficulty attracting people who are capable
> of understanding my ideas and are in sufficient agreement to even wish
> to engage me in dialog about them. This is understandable since those
> ideas are not part of any currently established and widely known social
> model, and one of the major problems with current society is the lack
> of truly open minded and analytical people.

Something I have found is that individuals have to discover much of this
on their own. You can provide a light or stretch out your hand, but
they have to take the next step. The individual must also be willing to
sincerely question every principle that they have accepted as "truth".
They must also acknowledge that ideas are not Self rather they are
Possessions. Possessions with the unique characteristic of being
possessible by all.

> > Yesterday, I completed reading your document about social meta-needs.
> > I found that your arguments against rights were quite compelling.
>
> Again that's great to hear. When I submitted the Social Meta-Needs
> treatise to Libertarian Papers <http://www.LibertarianPapers.org> it
> was rejected with the remark from one "reviewer" (I put it in quotes
> because the speed of rejection was such that no one could have
> actually taken time to study it in detail) that the paper was "just
> providing a slightly new and modish vocabulary for the same things
> that we all accept".

Have you sent any of your papers to Walter Block? I am curious as to
how he would respond. He seems willing to consider many different
points of view.

On a separate note: I have forwarded some of your links to a couple
people who may be interested.

> > What struck me as more surprising, however, was that you are seeking
> > to put the ideas of liberty into practise.
>
> I have always been both a theoretician and practical person in many
> diverse areas. I don't agree that there is any dichotomy between
> theory and practice. If some theory is not practical then it simply is
> not a valid theory (one that is true of reality).
>
> > I too am developing a plan to do the exact same thing in (to my
> > pleasant surprise) a similar way.
> > I have various materials that I can share with you if you are interested.
>
> Yes, I would like to know everything about it. There are far too many
> people going off independently in all sorts of directions, and with
> most people in current society not knowing how to evaluate, this
> greatly weakens the possibility of any one way to attract sufficient
> others to get anywhere.
>
> > My plan is to launch a web site by the end of the year that
> > facilitates Social Preferencing.
>
> I also want to know precisely what you mean by the phrase "facilitates
> Social Preferencing" and how your plans will do that. I sincerely hope
> that we can merge our plans into one effort.

This post is a good introduction to what I am interested in doing. It
is the how that I am still working on:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/morelife/message/2036
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/morelife/message/2036>

It should be pointed out that this is only one facet of the plan. This
sort of system will enable the connection of likeminded individuals
which of course is only the beginning. Physical communities (not just
online communities) could be formed anywhere that humans exist that
follow a specific formula (still to be developed). Liberated
communities will be as ubiquitous as fast food restaurants once the plan
blossoms.

> > Would you be interested participating in an online meeting with me
> > to determine whether it would be beneficial for us to work together?
>
> Absolutely yes! On the MoreLife group Yahoo would be best for me. All
> such discussion will be eventually moved to the appropriate wiki
> (Valu4Valu.org, OpenLives.net, SelfSIP.org or MoreLife.org) when they
> are ready, in order to get more visibility.
>
> > I am most interested in learning more about the following two
> > items listed on your site:
> >
> > * Outline of the Program of Implementation [in progress]
>
> I have written small items about this in several places, but have not
> done any comprehensive work, since so far no one has really understood
> my work, agreed with it (or got me to change it to be more correct)
> and joined me to promote it. As I always state, before one starts to
> implement a plan to attain a certain goal (a newly organized society,
> in this case) one first needs to know that and how such a goal will be
> beneficial (before one begins a journey one needs to know the
> destination). Therefore, talk about implementation is a little ways
> off, IMO. Nevertheless I do have many ideas already formulated.
>
> > * Self-Sovereign Personal Database Website [planned]
>
> This is already begun as the wiki http://OpenLives.net
>
> > *My Skills:*
> > Engineering
> > Web Programming
> > Enthusiasm
>
> Interesting, These match mine and Kitty's quite well. We are both
> Engineering graduates (among other academic areas). I have been
> involved with computers off and on for over 35 years. And under the
> right circumstances we both have lots of energy and enthusiasm.
>
> > *My Vision:*
> > Create a system that permits liberty to flourish anywhere in the universe.
>
> Same here. But not only liberty - more importantly, maximum possible
> freedom (in the sense of available actions).

I see. That is something that I did not directly have in mind, but
expanding the boundaries on available actions makes sense.

> See the definitions of
> Liberty and Freedom in the Natural Social Contract
> <http://selfsip.org/solutions/NSC.html> and their annotations to
> understand the difference between Freedom and Liberty (the latter is
> merely a prerequisite for maximal Freedom).

I have not yet read those two documents. I am currently in the process
of writing a review of the paper about "Social Meta-Needs" there are a
few spots where my understanding needs to be expanded.

> > *Location:*
> > Winchester, VA
> > 703-881-3199
> >
> > P.S. Where are you located?
>
> Unfortunately you are not close to either of our residences:
> May to October inclusive: Harcourt Park Ontario Canada - my legal
> residence as a Canadian citizen
> November to April inclusive: Casa Grande Arizona USA - Kitty's legal
> residence as a US citizen

I was just in Arizona. While their I visited the Mago Retreat in
Sedona: http://www.sedonamagoretreat.org/
<http://www.sedonamagoretreat.org/> .

The reason that I mention this here is that the Energy Yoga practised
their has helped me to be a better and happier person. Disclaimer: The
"scientific research" portion of the organization is neither science nor
research. If you can look beyond that, and watch your wallet (though
I've found that the value received is typically comensurate with the
cost) you might find it interesting.

> We sometimes visit people in between during our bi-yearly migration,
> but we have rarely been to VA and we refuse to fly, the airport
> regulations situation being as it is.
>
>
> > Chad
> > www.downsizedc.org <http://www.downsizedc.org/>
>
> Kitty could not find any sign of you on that web site. How are you
> related to downsizedc.org?

I am a member of downsizedc.org. I donate money to them, and send
emails to my "Representatives". Professional politics is not the
answer, however, laying a tree in front of the steamroller helps to buy
time.

Chad Nelson

[Meta
Since your full name is not part of your email address (which is attached to
your message, however read by others), our full identity requirements mean that
you must always sign your email at the point of completion of your message text.
Therefore, I have included it here.
/Meta --Paul]