--- In morelife@yahoogroups.com, Ólafur Páll Ólafsson <olafurpall@...> wrote:
>
> --- In morelife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wakfer <paul@> wrote:
> >
> > This is my response to the second part of the original for which the
> > subject title is still appropriate.
> >
> > On 01/07/2009 11:30 PM, David Thomas Jackemeyer wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In morelife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wakfer <paul@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On 12/31/2008 11:21 AM, David Thomas Jackemeyer wrote:
> >
> > <big snip of what was previously responded to>
> >
> > > > > I would like to fast for extended periods, and one 2hr meal per day
> > > > > has been working fine for me. I would also like to exercise 45 min
> > > > > per day. BTW, I have completely cut out alcohol from my diet, in
> > > > > response to the posts related to message 1809 on Morelife Yahoo Group
> > > > > posted 06/04/08:
> > > > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/morelife/message/1809
> > > > >
> > > > > Question: If I finished my (one per day) meal by noon, to what extent
> > > > > would exercising seven hours later disturb the important pathways
> > > > > hypothesized to occur during a long fast period?
> > > >
> > > > Exercise will always enhance the beneficial biochemical activities of
> > > > the fasting state. The time you give appears to be quite ideal.
> > > > Exercise is best in relation to fasting if done as long as possible
> > > > after eating, but not so close to sleeping that it will interfere with
> > > > that important activity - ie it is probably best to end exercise by at
> > > > least 2 hours before sleep so that the body can wind down and get into
> > > > a very relaxed state by sleep time.
> > >
> > > I was concerned that when exercising, my body might retard autophagic
> > > response to fasting because of the increased liberation of energy
> > > stored in liver, muscles, fat, and ingested ingredients (whey
> > > protein, e.g.). Is this a concern?
> >
> > I don't think so. If there is a great deal of stored energy, the
> > autophagic effects of recycling proteins will not be high anyway,
> > since the energy stores of carbohydrates (and fats, but to a lesser
> > extent because they are harder to liberate) will tend to be used first
> > for fuel as they are more easily converted to fuel. WRT, ingested
> > ingredients, the whole purpose of fasting and exercising in a fasted
> > state is precisely because there are no longer any ingested
> > ingredients available - they have all gone past the point where they
> > can be absorbed.
>
> I agree with Paul here. Jack, I don't know how familiar you are with
> autophagy, but autophagy is basically a process whereby the body eats
> itself because it is lacking energy stores and the building blocks
> required to support anabolism. Now here is a logical exercise for you
> Jack (This relates to the use of logic Paul spoke about in your last
> post). The question you have to ask yourself here is *why* is there an
> increase in the liberation of energy stores during exercise? Why does
> your body start liberating fat and increasing glucose output from the
> liver when you exercise, and how does that relate to autophagy?
>
> If you think about the answer you can come to realize that it doesn't
> make sense that exercise would cause autophagy to decrease. The answer
> is that energy stores are being liberated because the muscle tissue is
> burning up so much energy and it needs more of it to keep the exercise
> going. The energy stores thus are being liberated in order for the
> muscles to take up the energy they need (glucose and fat) to keep
> functioning at high efficiency. Now this energy has to come from
> somewhere and since you have not eaten for a long time it makes sense
> that the body has to turn to itself by both breaking down stored
> energy (glycogen and fat) as well as by eating itself through
> autophagy. Note that the liver can not store much glycogen and as it
> starts to empty it will have to increase gluconeogenesis (the
> synthesis of glucose from noncarbohydrate precursors such as amino
> acids). Now where do the amino acids required for gluconeogenesis come
> from? Again the answer is from autophagy, if you haven't eaten for a
> while that is.

This last part helped me understand that the increase in
gluconeogenesis is fueled by amino acids liberated during
autophagy -- I did not understand the details, so this has
spurred my further investigation.

Is there known to be a self-reported difference in the quality
of performance of subjects between fueling vigorous exercise
with gluconeogenesis versus fueling with stored gylcogen or
fat stores? Quality of performance meaning relative
sluggishness, alertness, or emotional motivation in response
to physical performance.

I'm wondering because if yes, then maybe it be wise to
exercise vigorously when stored glycogen and fat stores
are available to ensure peak physical performance, with
the remaining hours of regular caloric demand between
exercise and meal expected to be powered more-so by
autophagy.

> Energy depleting exercise increases insulin sensitivity in the muscle
> tissue being exercised, which increases uptake of nutrients such as fat
> and glucose into the muscle tissue being exercised. The muscles are
> basically creating a funnel for nutrients. This increased insulin
> sensitivity in the muscle tissue being exercised also lasts a while
> after the exercise is over causing increased nutrient uptake into the
> exercised muscle for a while after the exercise. But this effect is
> strongest right after exercising and fades somewhat afterwards which
> is one reason it is beneficial to eat immediately after exercising as
> opposed to eating later on. If you eat right after exercising more of
> the nutrients will be taken up by the muscle tissue. Much of the
> glucose f.ex. will go towards filling the muscles glycogen stores
> leaving less of it left to cause harmful elevation of blood glucose.

Understood -- these are good reasons for scheduling a meal
to immediately follow exercise.

[snipped part on META --Paul]

> > > If this is viable, are these concerns mitigated if exercise instead
> > > immediately precedes the 2hr large meal?
> >
> > That would be an even better time for it. The more deeply fasted state,
> > the better effect of the exercise on promotion of autophagy. And 2 hrs
> > should give your body sufficient time to recover before the large meal.
>
> Since he wrote "immediately precedes" I think Jack was speaking of
> exercising immediately prior to eating the meal not 2 hrs before
> eating it as you appear to have understood it.

Yes, for 8 weeks now I have exercised followed ~40 min later
by a 2-hour meal. Since I take a shower, gather my study
material, then walk to the cafe, I must be missing an important
period of nutrient uptake since my heart rate, sweating, and
overall physical exertion has decreased to pre-workout status.

> Anyways your point
> still stands, that the more deeply fasted state, the better effect of
> the exercise on promotion of autophagy.
>
> BTW in case anyone is wondering which is better I think it would be
> better to exercise immediately prior to eating the single meal rather
> than 2 hours before eating it (I know Jack didn't ask this question
> but I'm on a roll here:-). There a few reasons I think this is the case:
>
> 1) If you exercise immediately prior to eating there will be longer
> since you last ate when you exercise compared to if you exercise an
> hour or two before eating. Not having eaten for so long will increase
> the demand for autophagy to provide the energy required for the
> exercise, not to mention that autophagy will already have been
> increased considerably if it is so long since you last ate. Exercising
> at this time should strongly induce autophagy.

Regardless of the time of day of exercise, as long as all other
things were equal, one would always end up metabolizing the
same amount from both normal body stores (glycogen and fat)
and autophagy. However, what I gather from each of you is
one can increase the autophagic effect by pushing exercise to
later in the day, but this seems false because, calories-in
calories-out, there is no difference in the number of calories
taken in and likewise, no difference in the amount/type of
energy-expending exercise.
The difference I do see, which does not strike me as significant,
is: during a much earlier bout of exercise, one will rely less on
autophagy for energy, but the autophagy will show an increase
earlier in that day, whereas during a much later bout of exercise,
one will rely more heavily on autophagy for energy, and the
autophagy will show an increase later in the day-- but this
difference is only in timing exercise to match with autophagy,
which does not necessarily change the calorie count.

Are you suggesting that timing exercise so one relies more
heavily on autophagy as a source of energy brings an additional
calorie-burning advantage versus timing exercise to rely more
heavily on glycogen and fat stores as a source of energy (and
thus leaving autophagy for later, relaxed states)?

--Jack

[snipped text not responded to. --Paul]