--- In morelife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wakfer <paul@...> wrote:
>
> This is my response to the second part of the original for which the
> subject title is still appropriate.
>
> On 01/07/2009 11:30 PM, David Thomas Jackemeyer wrote:
> >
> > --- In morelife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Wakfer <paul@> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 12/31/2008 11:21 AM, David Thomas Jackemeyer wrote:
>
> <big snip of what was previously responded to>
>
> > > > I would like to fast for extended periods, and one 2hr meal
per day
> > > > has been working fine for me. I would also like to exercise 45 min
> > > > per day. BTW, I have completely cut out alcohol from my diet, in
> > > > response to the posts related to message 1809 on Morelife
Yahoo Group
> > > > posted 06/04/08:
> > > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/morelife/message/1809
> > > >
> > > > Question: If I finished my (one per day) meal by noon, to what
extent
> > > > would exercising seven hours later disturb the important pathways
> > > > hypothesized to occur during a long fast period?
> > >
> > > Exercise will always enhance the beneficial biochemical
activities of
> > > the fasting state. The time you give appears to be quite ideal.
> > > Exercise is best in relation to fasting if done as long as possible
> > > after eating, but not so close to sleeping that it will
interfere with
> > > that important activity - ie it is probably best to end exercise
by at
> > > least 2 hours before sleep so that the body can wind down and
get into
> > > a very relaxed state by sleep time.
> >
> > I was concerned that when exercising, my body might retard autophagic
> > response to fasting because of the increased liberation of energy
> > stored in liver, muscles, fat, and ingested ingredients (whey
> > protein, e.g.). Is this a concern?
>
> I don't think so. If there is a great deal of stored energy, the
> autophagic effects of recycling proteins will not be high anyway,
> since the energy stores of carbohydrates (and fats, but to a lesser
> extent because they are harder to liberate) will tend to be used first
> for fuel as they are more easily converted to fuel. WRT, ingested
> ingredients, the whole purpose of fasting and exercising in a fasted
> state is precisely because there are no longer any ingested
> ingredients available - they have all gone past the point where they
> can be absorbed.

I agree with Paul here. Jack, I don't know how familiar you are with
autophagy, but autophagy is basically a process whereby the body eats
itself because it is lacking energy stores and the building blocks
required to support anabolism. Now here is a logical exercise for you
Jack (This relates to the use of logic Paul spoke about in your last
post). The question you have to ask yourself here is *why* is there an
increase in the liberation of energy stores during exercise? Why does
your body start liberating fat and increasing glucose output from the
liver when you exercise, and how does that relate to autophagy?

If you think about the answer you can come to realize that it doesn't
make sense that exercise would cause autophagy to decrease. The answer
is that energy stores are being liberated because the muscle tissue is
burning up so much energy and it needs more of it to keep the exercise
going. The energy stores thus are being liberated in order for the
muscles to take up the energy they need (glucose and fat) to keep
functioning at high efficiency. Now this energy has to come from
somewhere and since you have not eaten for a long time it makes sense
that the body has to turn to itself by both breaking down stored
energy (glycogen and fat) as well as by eating itself through
autophagy. Note that the liver can not store much glycogen and as it
starts to empty it will have to increase gluconeogenesis (the
synthesis of glucose from noncarbohydrate precursors such as amino
acids). Now where do the amino acids required for gluconeogenesis come
from? Again the answer is from autophagy, if you haven't eaten for a
while that is.

Energy depleting exercise increases insulin sensitivity in the muscle
tissue being exercised, which increases uptake of nutrients such as fat
and glucose into the muscle tissue being exercised. The muscles are
basically creating a funnel for nutrients. This increased insulin
sensitivity in the muscle tissue being exercised also lasts a while
after the exercise is over causing increased nutrient uptake into the
exercised muscle for a while after the exercise. But this effect is
strongest right after exercising and fades somewhat afterwards which
is one reason it is beneficial to eat immediately after exercising as
opposed to eating later on. If you eat right after exercising more of
the nutrients will be taken up by the muscle tissue. Much of the
glucose f.ex. will go towards filling the muscles glycogen stores
leaving less of it left to cause harmful elevation of blood glucose.

> META: I had hoped that Olafur would respond to this part since he
> certainly knows the area.

Paul I am familiar with the noun "meta" which you have used a lot in
your writings, but I can't figure out what the term "META" means. I
did not find it in any dictionary (including the unabridged Merriam
Webster dictionary). Is it an abbreviation for something? Please explain.

> > If this is viable, are these concerns mitigated if exercise instead
> > immediately precedes the 2hr large meal?
>
> That would be an even better time for it. The more deeply fasted state,
> the better effect of the exercise on promotion of autophagy. And 2 hrs
> should give your body sufficient time to recover before the large meal.

Since he wrote "immediately precedes" I think Jack was speaking of
exercising immediately prior to eating the meal not 2 hrs before
eating it as you appear to have understood it. Anyways your point
still stands, that the more deeply fasted state, the better effect of
the exercise on promotion of autophagy.

BTW in case anyone is wondering which is better I think it would be
better to exercise immediately prior to eating the single meal rather
than 2 hours before eating it (I know Jack didn't ask this question
but I'm on a roll here:-). There a few reasons I think this is the case:

1) If you exercise immediately prior to eating there will be longer
since you last ate when you exercise compared to if you exercise an
hour or two before eating. Not having eaten for so long will increase
the demand for autophagy to provide the energy required for the
exercise, not to mention that autophagy will already have been
increased considerably if it is so long since you last ate. Exercising
at this time should strongly induce autophagy.
2) As I mentioned above exercise increases insulin sensitivity in the
muscle tissue being exercised. The action of contracting your muscles
causes translocation of GLUT-4 to the cell surface of the skeletal
muscle cells. GLUT-4 is the main glucose transporter in human muscle
tissue. This consequently leads to increased uptake of glucose into
the exercised muscle tissue. This will in turn cause more of any
ingested glucose to be taken up by muscle tissue rather than
contributing to harmful elevation of blood glucose levels. And this is
an effect that is generally strongest right after exercising.
3) During exercise blood flow to the muscle tissue being exercised is
increased considerably. This fades quickly when the exercise is
stopped but lasts for a while after the exercise. This contributes to
increased nutrient delivery to the muscle tissue during and right
after the exercise. The effect again is that more of any ingested
nutrients will be taken up by the muscle tissue. The benefits of this
include a lower blood glucose spike from a meal that is eaten after
exercising compared to if it were eaten later. Also since the
increased blood flow to the working muscle fades fairly quickly after
the exercise it is important to eat right after the exercise if one
wants to take advantage of the increased nutrient delivery and the
potential benefits it has.

BTW to take advantage of some of the benefits I mentioned above I
myself try to always eat my biggest meal of the day right after
exercising. I also partition a large share of my daily carbohydrate
intake during this meal knowing it will likely cause less of a rise in
my blood sugar than if I were to consume them at other times.