Note that I am responding to this message again partly because I got
mixed up and wrote a response before I realized that I had already
responded previously, partly because in the new response I expanded on
the previous response in one area (before I realized that I had
already responded to this message previously) with some personal
information that I think may be of interest to some readers, partly
because I want to add some information to Olafur's response to Jack's
(David Thomas Jackemeyer) original message which information I think
is important and, finally, partly because I wanted to communicate to
readers that I have changed my decision with respect to consuming
alcohol, at least for the time being, as a result of doing the
research for this message.

Is all that clear? There will be a quiz at the end of the message :-)

On 06/29/2008 01:57 PM, François ROSE wrote:
> --- In morelife@yahoogroups.com, Ólafur Páll Ólafsson
> <olafurpall@...>
> wrote:
>
>> --- In morelife@yahoogroups.com, "David Thomas Jackemeyer"
>> <Olehenry1@> wrote:
>>
>>> "David Thomas Jackemeyer" <Olehenry1@> wrote:
>>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> You mention intake of alcohol during fasting enhances the
>>> potential negatives, above the impact sustained when drinking
>>> with foods -- how much worse would you predict?
>>>
>> This is not a simple question to answer because it depends on
>> several factors including of course the dose of the alcohol. Also
>> the timing of the alcohol intake will effect its positive effects as
>> well as its
>> negative effects. With respect to the positive effects evidence
>> suggests that some of the beneficial effects of moderate alcohol
>> consumption are caused by a hormetic effect. This is among others
>> supported by the J shaped curve that relates alcohol intake to
>> mortality. To get the hormetic benefit the dose consumed must be
>> large enough to cause a stress response. But if the dose is too
>> large the harm will be more than the benefit from the stress
>> response. This is why alcohol is only beneficial in moderation.
>> Epidemiological studies suggest that somewhere around 10-40g of
>> alcohol a day is the optimal
>> dose for reduction in mortality (full text of PMID: 15006414). Note
>> that the stress on the body from drinking a dose of alcohol spread
>> over the day will be less than the stress of consuming it all in
>> one dose. Thus 10g of alcohol might be enough to cause a beneficial
>> hormetic response if drunken in a single dose while it may not be
>> enough to cause such a response if one were to consume it in
>> several small doses over the day, such as when spreading it over
>> three meals.
>> On the other hand 40g of alcohol is most likely enough to cause a
>> beneficial hormetic response even if spread over the day. But
>> taking 40g all at once would probably cause a stress response that
>> is considerably higher than that needed to cause the beneficial
>> hormetic response and might be high enough for the harmful effects
>> to outweigh
>> the beneficial ones. These numbers of course are just estimates and
>> will be very individual. But note that drinking alcohol with a meal
>> does spread the dose considerably compared to drinking it on a
>> fasting stomach since the meal will slow down its absorption.

[snip]

>> This subject wasn't exactly of much interest to me
>> since I myself do not drink alcoholic beverages, nor do I plan to
>> in part because I dislike their taste.

[snip]

> I used to dislike the taste of red wine until I was a teenager but my
> father has educated my taste and it came gradually. My wife also
> used to dislike the taste of red wine before she met me.
>

Yes, like many other tastes, enjoying the taste of wine is something
that is not generally immediate and is only acquired through usage. Many
foods are similar in this manner. Particularly ones that a person did
not have in hir childhood where, even if one disliked a certain food,
the example of parents and siblings enjoying it was generally enough to
make one try it until one liked it. Interestingly enough, I was quite
different in this way from an early age. There were several foods that
my parents ate regularly but that I rebelled at (much to their annoyance
and constant efforts to get me to eat them). One of these that I have
strong memories about from an early age was green peas. I particularly
remember my maternal grandmother hiding the peas in mashed potatoes, but
I would always find them and put them aside, even though I loved the
mashed potatoes. Another interesting aspect of my childhood food
dislikes (one of which, dill pickles, I never learned to like until I
tried kosher style pickles at a restaurant in my mid 20s) is that I now
like them all very much. Fortunately for me, although both of my parents
smoked and my older brother began early (he thought he was such a
mature person for doing so), I did not like it even though I was often
offered puffs by my father and did try them once or twice at the start,
and I never did smoke. In addition, even though both parents drank
liquor of all kinds (but little dry red wine) and even enjoyed the
feeling of being quite affected by ethanol (but they were never
alcoholics, by any means), I have never liked the effects of ethanol on
my brain (mainly disliking the lack of control feeling), which is why I
have never drunk anything but wine and beer and only with meals. I used
to occasionally drink some European style beer (which has more hops
flavor than most US and Canadian beers) but have not had any ethanol for
many years now since I first decided that ethanol ingestion was not
conducive to my health and longevity. As anyone can read in the personal
health section of MoreLife.org, it is only quite recently that I and
Kitty began to drink about 4 oz of wine each with our one daily meal and
about 5 oz now that we only eat 2 meals over 3 days according to the
schedule that I posted in
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/morelife/message/1818

Here is some information related to the metabollization of ethanol
which I think is important.

The USDA tables state that a no-name red table wine has the following
relevant contents per 100 grams (about 102.6 ml for your 12% alcohol
by volume wine)):

Calories - 85
Alcohol - 10.6
Carbs - 2.5
Sugar - 0.6

It is also interesting that 100 grams of this wine also contains 127 mg
of potassium, 105 mcg of fluoride and 5.7 mg of choline.
I checked Merlot, Cabernet Suavignon and Pinot Noir and they are little
different than this. OTOH, these USDA figures are likely for US wines,
and French or other imported wines may be a little different.

Thus your intake of 200 ml of wine adds considerable extra calories to
your meal.

Note: several days elapsed here (and the heading paragraph was
rewritten as a result of the text below.


After spending some time researching the effects of alcohol, I find so
very many serious negatives in its metabolism, that, just as I used to
think, it is very hard to justify a healthy and well nutritioned
person taking it at all. Along with an enormous number of clearly
negative effects, the only positive ones that I can find are those
relating to epidemiological studies that a little is beneficial for
people on standard diets, perhaps because of positive effects on
cholesterol (but I don't need that since I use other proven and
effective methods on my cholesterol), and that a little alcohol may
have a hormetic effect (caused by its toxic metabolic products). This
last, and a possibility of its positive effect on testosterone
production and rheumatoid arthritis - http://pmid.us17185416, is the
reason why I finally decided to drink wine at the end of 2006 (see:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.baldspot/browse_frm/thread/76acc3c730b78034

However, with respect to the potential hormetic response, I am already
getting hormetic responses from many different modalities and since
the epidemiology relates to people on more standard regimens, the
hormetic response from alcohol may for me and Kitty not be as
valuable, as effective or perhaps even positively effective at all. In
addition, my inflammatory situation is very low and I am highly
unlikely to get rheumatoid arthritis. Finally, my low testosterone
(because of missing one testicle lost by torsion at age 31) is having
no negatives effects except for a somewhat lowering of libido and if I
need more testosterone there are better ways to get it.

As a result of the research/reconsiderations and as a trial to see if
it is the alcohol that is causing our blood glucose to remain so
elevated even during our long fasting periods (some of the research
showed that alcohol may disrupt insulin production and promote insulin
resistance ), I and Kitty are suspending our use of alcohol for at
least a while in order to see if it is causing this effect. Even if
not, we will likely suspend its use until we can get blood tests and
then attempt to use blood test results to see just what effect the
change of alcohol only is having on us.

--Paul