[This message was delayed due to our preparation for, drive to and set up time
in Arizona. **Kitty]

> [Marc, I am going to assume that you are interested in increasing your
> libido, rather than your testosterone per se --Paul]

Yes and no--yes I'm interested in increasing my sex drive, however
I'm also interested in enhancing my Total Testosterone levels, Free
Testosterone levels and DHT. A retired endocrinologist friend of mine
clearly told me that my Total Testosterone although normal, wasn't
optimal for my age group--he said that it should be midrange, or
upper.

[What you and most other people (apparently even including this endocrinologist)
do not seem to realize is that there is no definition of "optimal" for almost
any measurement of any physiological parameter (any sign) of the human body. A
level of one parameter that is healthy for one person may be unhealthy for
another who has different genes producing different enzyme alleles with
different reaction times, and vice verse for some other parameter. Therefore it
is a mistake to attempt to make the levels of all one's parameters be at mid
range on the normal distribution for humans of one's age. The correct approach
is to attempt to adjust those parameters which are related to symptoms (feelings
and functions of one's body) that one wishes to alter. Although this sounds a
little like I am saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it", there is a subtle
difference which is related to the fact that all humans are breaking down
constantly as time passes and so that constantly accumulating breakage needs to
also be constantly fixed to prevent its accumulation or at least reduce the rate
as much as possible. Changes in hormonal levels with age are merely the result
of such accumulating damage. Perhaps your testosterone levels are already close
to optimal for *you*. There really is no way to tell except by symptoms, one of
which is your libido. --Paul]


It's important that you know that I have no use for
surpraphysiological Testosterone levels--too much is just as harmful
as not enough as evidenced by this recent study :
http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/09/27/testosterone.kills.reut/index.html

My reasons (which are probably other's too) for wanting to keep both a
higher total and free testosterone levels include :

*nervous ssytem effects : depression (better moods)
*sexual enjoyment and function
* cardiovascular disease and metabolic syndrome
* musculoskeletal system : bone formation and bone resorption.

I'd like my total T to be roughly in the 800 range, or at least mid-
range.

[The above are a good selection of the potential dysfunctions that relate to low
testosterone. However, what you have not stated (except for the first one) is
the evidence that you have for such dysfunctions. So let me ask specifically:

1) What nervous system effects do you have that you feel cause you dysfunction
and that you would like to change? Specifically, are you hyperactive and often
unable to focus? Do you get depressed more than normal? And if so in what ways?
In answering this, take into account that current society is a highly complex,
often very reasonably an extremely frustrating environment and that there is
never enough time to do all that one would like to be able to do.

2) Do you have less sexual desire, functionality and enjoyment than you would
like to have? In answering this take into account that time is a limited
resource and that sexual activity necessarily takes time away from other
enjoyable pursuits.

3) Do you have any indication of either cardiovascular disease or metabolic
syndrome? For the first, regular BP and heart rate measurements basal (before
getting up upon awakening), before and right after exercise will give an
indication and if you want more information you can get a tread mill stress test
or an arterial echogram.
WRT metabolic syndrome such questions would be: Are you overweight? What is your
waist measurement? Do you suffer from fatigue? And related tests you could take
would be measurements of fasting and postprandial blood glucose and insulin,
urinalysis and a glucose/insulin tolerance test.

[Regarding Metabolic Syndrome X, the JAMA has a patient information webpage on
the subject - http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/295/7/850 Glaringly
missing under prevention, is maintaining a lean body. While losing weight is at
the top of the list for treatment, no specific advice is given to even be below
a certain BMI or have a body fat percentage below a given level. Exercising
regularly and eating a healthful balanced diet is not sufficient guidance.
**Kitty]

4) Do you have any evidence of weak or otherwise dysfunctional bones? Have you
ever broken a bone or broken one recently? You could also get a comprehensive
bone density test. Bear in mind that thin people often have reduced bone density
and this is not anything negative (unless you are planning to use your bones as
weapons or levers), since a low body weight needs less bone strength to support
it. --Paul]


>[My opinion of them is that they verify that low testosterone is not
> the major source of his problem (although more would likely help).--Paul]


I agree with you--low testosterone definately is one player in the
sex drive department, but absolutely not the only one. I also agree
that low T isn't the major issue with me. I highly suspect, as do many
M.D.'s I've seen until now, that brain chemistry plays more into it
than does the hormone connection. I'm interested in finding the common
link between : St-John's wort, theanine, grape seed extract, valerian,
zinc and mangesium--to the best of my knowledge these last all have a
soothing effect on the nervous system (whether CNS (central nervous
system) or ANS (autonomic nervous system) through the CNS,since both
are obviously interconnected. Dr. Kevin Pezzi told me that the common
link is that they all work on Dopamine--even Valerian he said. However
he didn't provide the study he found in which it's found valerian
affect some dopamine receptor subtype. I mention those subtances as
they all positively affect my libido.

[Compounds from valerian root have been shown to bind to melatonin and serotonin
receptor subtypes but in contrast to what your doctor hypothesized they do not
appear to bind to dopamine receptors (PMID: 15636177, PMID: 15921820). -°Olafur]


>[The evidence for TT as a testosterone enhancer appears to be pretty
> weak. F.ex. in PMID: 15994038, the most recent study I found on the
> effect of TT supplementation on testosterone levels, TT
> supplementation had no significant effect on testosterone levels in
> young men. -°Olafur]

it seems that in some men with low T, tribulus can increase
Testosterone to some extent--definately not above range though. So far
the strongest evidence for TT is that protodioscin, the active
ingredient found in TT converts to DHEA-- PMID: 10849504

Now it seems TT may have some negative side effects like : increased
kidney stones formation, though I couldn't find any Pubmed evidence
for this adverse claim. Come to think of it, do you know of any
significant side effect of TT that would cause one to wish to avoid
taking it?

[Other than the reduction of monetary assets and available time from purchasing
and using it, no. --Paul]


>[Actually since I take TT it would only be off the topic of this
> particular post. However, I am not sure to which other health benefits
> you are referring, so you should definitely list what you think they
are. --Paul]

[Marc, you deleted your own text which stated that there are some other benefits
of TT (which you did not mention because you thought they would be off topic).
And you also ignored my request that you list these other benefits so they could
be analyzed. --Paul]


What do you use TT for Paul?

[For the possible chance that it will increase my testosterone since I have the
clearly abnormal dysfunction of having only one testicle to produce my
testosterone. (My right testicle was congenitally inadequately attached and
suffered torsion of its blood supply during waking up one morning when I was 30.
Before I knew what was happening and could get help, its cells were dead from
hypoxia. It then had to be removed in a minor operation.) I have seen no
evidence that TT is having any effect, and would not continue using it if I had
to pay for it. Actually Kitty also takes it since some testosterone is also good
for a postmenopausal woman although she has never had a problem with libido.
--Paul]


>[A recent study (PMID: 16487434) posted on the newsgroup sci.life-
> extension found that for 24 men aged 58-68 giving 50 mg of DHEA at
> bedtime raised their testosterone by 33.3%. Most people have been
> suggesting that DHEA is best taken in the AM (and that is what I have
> been doing), but I have therefore recently changed it to the PM. You
> might consider that also, although 50 mg is likely too high a dosage
> at your age and you might be better taking only 25 mg. I will likely
> also be changing my pregnenolone to the evening also, but I first want
> to try the DHEA alone to see if it has any negative effects on my
> sleep. --Paul]

isn't taking exogenous DHEA going to result in my body
downregulating it's own DHEA production ?

[Not necessarily, but even if it does, so what? The blood DHEA or DHEA-S level
and any increase in testosterone that results is what you are after and they can
be measured and monitored. Only if the exogenous DHEA were not the exact same
chemical would any reduction of the body's output matter. The only thing that
might happen is since the adrenal glands output of DHEA might be downregulated,
its output capacity might be directed to increasing some other hormones such as
progesterone and cortisol. That is why all related hormones should be monitored
whenever one is taking any exogenous ones. --Paul]


Also, since the active
constituent in TT converts to DHEA, wouldn't it be useful to take TT
before going to bed too ? Of course, they tested DHEA, and not TT, but
the two seems to at least correlate on one point, namely the DHEA
side.

[Yes, that seems logical. I will try taking TT at night too, again unless it
negatively affects my sleep. --Paul]


Marc Boucher
34 year-old
Riviere-du-Loup
Quebec, Canada.