Paul-

Thank you once again for more in-depth analysis!

Some phrases:

"...exhaustive aerobic exercise ..."

"...exhaustive exertion. "

"...exhaustive endurance exercise ..."

[In future, please do not quote phrases out-of-context. Such phrases have little
meaning precisely because the surrounding relevant elucidating text is missing.
Out-of-context quoting is what is often done by the media in an attempt to imply
different intentions to the writer/speaker than were actually meant (and clearly
stated) by the writer/speaker within the text taken as a whole. In this case, I
think that little if any misrepresentation has occurred and I am certain that
none was intended, but as a general rule out-of-context quotes should be
strongly avoided. --Paul]


led me to believe that there exists the possibility that a misunderstanding
may exist on the method by which most participants undertake contemporary
marathons and ultramarathons (distances greater than 26.2 miles).

It is highly uncommon for participants to run to exhaustion. Only a small
percent, who may be motivated to win an event or a high position within
their age division, are likely to run to exhaustion. The vast majority
participate at a comfortable pace for which they have carefully trained over
a period of many months or years. Running to exhaustion is both extremely
physically and psychologically painful, and is in many cases
counter-productive to the extent that it prevents the participant from
completing the event in the minimal time they are capable of.

[Russell, you are apparently not aware of the fact that your statements above
are self-contradictory. If one's goal is "completing the event in the minimal
time [one is] capable of" then one must necessarily complete the event with no
energy resources left (otherwise one could have run still faster and obtained a
lower time). And having no energy resources left is precisely what is meant by
"exhaustion". Perhaps what you mean to say is "completing the event in the
minimal time one is capable of while still feeling comfortable". However, the
"still feeling comfortable" is enormously subjective and one could make the same
true statement about those who do not run marathons at all. Since they could not
do it without feeling *uncomfortable*, for them also the statement: "if I remain
comfortable all the time and if I run as fast as possible for the whole time
then I will complete the marathon in my optimal time" is vacuously true because
the premises cannot both be true for them (and a conditional statement with
false premises is necessarily always true).

I have also looked back at the list of events distances and times for 2005 which
you sent me some time ago and I now see that your shortest marathon time is just
over 5 hours. This means that you are averaging barely over 5 miles per hour at
best and most often under 5. Frankly, I would not call this running at all and
will hereafter refer to it as jogging. In fact, I used to regularly walk several
miles at about 6 miles per hour and with a few months of getting back into
practice (my endurance has greatly diminished in the last few years because of
inability to do regular high energy dancing and long fast walks with my dog who
got old and then died), I think that I could easily (but extremely boringly)
walk 26 miles in 5 hours. However, as I have said many times, after the first
hour it would be a total waste of time and might even have negative
physiological effects. --Paul]

[Paul and I have been doing fast walking around the large blocks in our desert
rural area (properties generally of 3.5 acres) and currently average about 4.9
mph. In order for me to keep pace, I have to frequently really jog since Paul's
walking speed is much longer than mine. We've been including some intervals of
jogging for both of us, but Paul prefers just to walk very fast. It's not quite
as easy to walk very fast in the desert due to the need to be careful of the
terrain, though we still do this too. **Kitty]


I can say of the marathoners and ultra runners I know that they, as
incredible as it may sound, tend to take it easy and enjoy. Many are
completing more than 30 such events a year, and cannot afford to be injured
since they may have less than a week until their next event. I completed 29
marathon-or-longer events last year, 211 life-time total, and tend to think
of myself as enjoying as well as benefiting from the modest exercise.

[It is very clear that you and many others are making a full time activity of
planning, training for and running marathons. My response is: "what a colossal
waste of time for a human being whose major asset is his brain, rather than his
legs which so for many animals with far less brains are configured much better
for running." If you were a cave man, nomadic hunter or even employed as a
defense service person, and needed to run in order to live or do your job, that
would be different. But you and the others are living in technological
civilization where spending all this time on such mindless activity is no longer
necessary (which is why and how such technology came to be in the first place).
Therefore, it is very wasteful of precious and unique human resources (the
advanced human mental faculties) to continue to spend any more time on exercise
than is necessary in order to remain healthy (because humans are not yet
sufficiently adapted to a high-tech labor saving way of life from their
necessarily exercising forbearers). Of course, I could (and do) say exactly the
same thing about those who go out and play golf everyday, or spend hours and
hours playing video games. Seeing so many people wasting so much time in
activities that produce no real value for anyone else (and therefore should not
logically be producing any value for the person either) is something that
continually causes me great frustration with the world of people. If the
activity helped the person be healthy mentally and physically so that s/he could
be more productive, then such activity would be valid as one of the costs of
production. That is my view of exercise, eating, taking supplements and all
other healthy activities. The purpose of these activities is to enable me to be
more mentally productive and for a longer time. The reason for this is because
as a human, my mind is my chief asset and the one of greatest productive
ability. The most efficient use of my time is to spend as much as possible of it
in mental activity. That is the essence of being a human rather than a dumb
animal with little mental ability.

So in the end I must ask you: "why do you spend so much time on all these
marathons and similar events". And if you answer "because I enjoy doing it and I
want to remain healthy", then my response is "why do you enjoy it?" and "there
are much less time consuming ways to remain healthy and without the negatives to
health of long distance jogging". --Paul]


Did I ever send you the hardcopy of the study of thousands of individuals
which suggested that running at least up to 50 miles per week was
beneficial, with benefits increasing with mileage? I know I made you a
copy, but I don't recall if it got mailed or not.

[Yes, you sent it to me. However, there are no control groups doing other kinds
of exercise or practicing other healthy lifestyles (such as calorie
restriction). The only control group is totally sedentary people or those doing
less of the same kind of exercise. In addition, there is little assessment of
cost benefit - particularly with respect to injuries and lost time for other
things. A lot of people continue to ignore the fact that every choice for doing
something is a loss of time for doing something else. --Paul]


There is still the
question of the critical independent variable, since one has to be healthy,
to begin with, to be able to run 50 miles in a week on a regular basis!

[Quite so. In this respect, it is like the studies that show that those with low
BMI have increased mortality. They totally ignore the fact that most people with
low BMI did not get there by eating a healthy CR diet, but instead have a low
BMI because they are unhealthy in one way or another, and thus quite reasonably
have increased mortality above those with higher BMI. What you have pointed out
is that such studies cannot in principle show *causation*, but only correlation.
--Paul]


In any case, it is my impression that my running friends talk about sore
muscles and sore knees, whereas my non-running friends talk about
heart-bypass surgery and cancer-treatment regimens.

[Clearly you don't have the right friends :-) Seriously, all that you are
comparing are runners and sedentaries. That is because you have few friends in
any other categories. But what about me? I am one of your friends who does not
run and stands no chance of ever needing heart-bypass surgery nor little chance
of needing cancer treatment at least until many decades more. In any case, all
of this is anecdotal and does not provide evidence for any conclusions unless
scientifically and statistically examined. --Paul]


Is there some indication that tremors (hand, head) have been shown to be
related to excessive aerobic or non-aerobic exercise?

[I do not know of any and I would not think it likely. In fact, I would have
guessed that all exercise would be beneficial for prevention of any neurological
problems. --Paul]


Thanks again!

R