Having problems with message search?
----Forwarded email begins.----
Dana Beal <dana@...> wrote:
From: Dana Beal <dana@...>
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:40:04 -0500
Subject: [mayday] GMM 2005 #17: Anti-Mafia Police Bust Ayahuasca Church!; Updates
on Recife, Cordoba, Phoenix, Bakersfield for 2005 March!
Important: get your city on the list for the Global Marijuana March, May 7, 2005!So far we have confirmed 152 cities:AlbanyAlbuquerqueAmsterdamAntwerpAshevilleAthabascaAthensAtlantaAucklandBskersfieldBaselBermudaBernBiel/BienneBergenBerlinBirminghamBooneBoulderBristolBudapestBuenos AiresBurlingtonCapetownCheltenhamChicagoChicoChristchurchCincinnatiClevelandColorado SpringsColumbiaColumbusCordobaDarwinDes MoinesDetroitDoverDublinDunedinEast LansingEau ClaireEugeneFayettevilleFlintFotalezaFrankfurtFt. SmithGenevaGrass ValleyHachitaHalifaxHartfordHiloHoustonHullJerusalemKansas CityKristiansandLausanneLeipzigLethbridgeLexingtonLjubljanaLondonLos AngelesLuganoLyonMadridMexico CityMinneapolisMissoulaMontrealMoscowNashvilleNewarkNew OrleansNew PaltzNew YorkNicosia/ LefkosiaNimbinOgdenOrlandoOsakaOsloOuluPaiaParisPeoriaPhiladelphiaPhoenixPortlandPortlandPorto AlegrePotsdamPragueRaleighRapid CityRecifeRenoRichmondRineyvilleRio de JaneiroRoanokeRomeRosarioRostockSacramentoSalemSan AntonioSan FranciscoSan MarcosSanta BarbaraSanta CruzSapporoSarasotaSavannahSionSpokaneStavangerStevens PointSt. GallenSt. LouisStockholmTallahasseeTampaTampereTel AvivThunder BayToledoTokyoTorontoTraverse CityTromsoeTrondheimTucsonTupeloTurkuTwin OaksUpper LakeVancouverViennaVisaliaWaikikiWarsawWashington, D.C.Wilkes-BarreWilmingtonWinonaWinterthurZagrebZürichThere is also some international MMM networking going on at
this CannabisCulture.com message forum:http://www.cannabisculture.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=current-------------------------
Million Marijuana March. Banners, posters, handbills,
flyers for 2004 and 2005 MMM. Adapt for your needs! Click:
http://gallery.marihemp.com/mmm2004flyers
http://gallery.marihemp.com/mmm2005flyers
Or go to this other big MMM photo gallery. Click:
http://gallery.encod.org/mmm
and then click on "mmm2004"
and then "Banners Posters Handbills"Many of the MMM 2004 banners, posters, flyers, and
handbills were converted from PDF files to the gif and jpg
images found here. The freeware Adobe Acrobat Reader and the
freeware IrfanView were used.
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.htmlhttp://www.irfanview.com - IrfanView is a free image editor
that is useful for adapting these flyers and banners for
your needs. Download the full-size gif images since they usefar fewer kilobytes compared to the 640x480 and 800x600 jpg
versions of the same image. JPG image files are mainly for
photos and images with lots of color gradation. GIF image
files are much better for flyers and banners. IrfanView can
easily edit, reduce, or enlarge gif and jpg images.
These flyer and banner images were found elsewhere in the
photo gallery, and by following links on the MMM 2004 city
list pages, report pages, image pages, etc.. Flyers and
banners for other MMM years can be found through the first
link below: MMM images:
http://www.corporatism.netfirms.com/mmmimages.htm
2004 city list:
http://www.corporatism.netfirms.com/mmm2004.htm
2004 reports:
http://www.corporatism.netfirms.com/mmm2004rep.htm*****!!!Global Marijuana March--May 7, 2005: Updates, Reports!!!*****From: enrico.fletzer@...dear friends
my name is enrico fletzer and I wanted to show you briefly the million radio
marijuana march project which is based on our satellite www.radioforpeace.info
broadcasting over Europe,Northern Africa,Russia and Turkey and our websiteof course.
we will broadcast at saturday 7th italian time mostly in english but also
in the main european cities but also with an ear to the arabic and turkish
world with your help mixing political themes, legalisation, situation in
the countries, music and lots of culture so that this 1/3 of a day can be
affordable also for an american (south and north) or australian or asianlistener.In order to join in you could
in america asia and australia set up a similar downstreaming facility to
be repeated in local radios,satellite and web with a pleasant mix of culture,parties , music and liberation topics.Radio for peace will be glad to pick
up in the hours before the programs from the other continents.
help us in Europe sending us your audiostreaming facilities! Canada or San
Francisco have probably the tecnicalities to do radio for the american continent.
Local or national individuals could send us CD both audio and speeches with
a small english translation and description.
thanks for your support
enrico fletzer
radio for peace bologna
via della Beverara 125
40131 Bologna Italy---------------From: tents444@...Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 15:40:44 -0500
From: Tripod Form Mailer <membership@...>
To: tents444@...
Subject: Results From Your Form
The following data was submitted via your form:
ROME
New contact info & links:
Mefisto
7maggio@...
giornatamondiale@...
http://www.millionmarijuanamarch.info----end of Tripod form message------From:HSLotsof@... Subject:[Ibogaine] Italians move againt ayahuasca church ----Forwarded Message Follows----Here's a near complete translation of an AFP news in Spanish
<http://www.univision.com/contentroot/wirefeeds/world/2192141.html>, which
content is very similar to Italian versions (the police operation was, nokidding, labeled "operation Mystic" [/operazione Mistica/]):Breaking-up in Italy of a religious cult suspected of drug traffic18 March 2005Roma, AFPA religious cult of Brazilian origin accused of narcotic substancestraffic at an international scale was broken up in the center ofItaly, has announced this Friday the antimafia brigade of the cityof Perugia.After an investigation that lasted eight months, an arrest order wasissued against 24 members of the pseudo-religious organization"Santo Daime" or "Ayahuasca" (rope of the spirits in Quechua),appeared in Brazil at the beginning of the 20th century and whichItalian headquarters are located in Assisi.The questioned persons are of Italian, French, Brazilian, andPortuguese nationalityThe investigation also permitted to seize 40 liters of ahallucinogenic psychotropic substance called "dimethyltryptamine"(DMT) considered a hard drug in Italy according to the antimafiabrigade.According to the antimafia brigade, the principal figure of thisspiritual movement is a Brazilian who produces and transports theDMT to Europe.This person received adhesion requests from the entire world throughelectronic mail and a sum between 15 and 30 euros.The participation to one "Santo Daime" ritual cost 45 euros to theadepts of the movement or 70 euros for two sessions.The meetings were held every two weeks, approximately.---------------From: "Luiz Paulo Guanabara" <luiz@...>To: "eco man" <tents444@...>Subject: mmm in brasilDate: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 01:04:22 -0300EcoInfo from Recife:Date : May 08, 2005Place: Patio de Sao Pedro, in downtown Recife.Time: 17h.Organization: Associacao de Usuarios de Alcool e outrasDrogas de PernambucoContact: Marcilio: marciliocl@...i am not sure if posters would arrive in Brazil in time.what do you think?in Rio, anyway, we will soon print flyers and maybe alsosome posters. i'll send you a file when it is ready.
-----------From: mikebifari@...Hi,I write from Córdoba, an Argentinean city. We are organizing the first editionof the MMM here, and maybe you may include us in the world cities list.
Local contact data are:
Christian Gebauer - farmacon@... - +54
(3541) 4232358
mike bifari,www.de-verdamper.com
mikebifari@...
phone 03548 482903
Hasta la vistaChristian---------Colorado DailyMarch 21, 2005http://www.coloradodaily.com/Weed WarsWill CU's 4/20 be deep-sixed?By MATT WILLIAMS Colorado Daily Staff WriterPut out that joint.Police and CU administrators are discussing ways to crack down on potsmokers at the University's annual informal celebration of marijuana onCU's Farrand Field on April 20.More officers could be sent to patrol the "4/20" festivities, orundercover narcotics agents could be deployed. The CU-Boulder PoliceDepartment could also work in partnership with the city of Boulder PoliceDepartment and other drug enforcement units, said CU-Boulder PoliceDepartment spokesman Lt. Tim McGraw.McGraw said he would not discuss specific tactics in order to preservesecrecy.Many students think the police ignore pot smokers on April 20 as long as
they stay within the perimeter of Farrand Field.
That's a false assumption, McGraw said.
"The reality of it is that we've always had a police presence at these
events and they've been going on the last several years at Farrand Field,"
McGraw said.
Typically, though, police have been greatly outnumbered by the hundreds or
thousands who attend, so it limits what police can do, he said.
McGraw said the extent of drug use on April 20 is overblown.
"There's certainly an urban legend about thousands of people showing up to
smoke marijuana," he said. "The overwhelming majority of people who show
up for this don't smoke. That has been our observation."
The police have issued only a handful of summonses for marijuana use each
year at Farrand Field, McGraw said, in part because the law limits the
police department.
Possession of less than an ounce of marijuana is only a petty offense in
Colorado, he said.
Ron Stump, vice chancellor of student affairs, met with city and county
officials last week, and he wants input from students on how to curb the
celebration, according to local media.
University officials are concerned about CU's image after allegations
resurfaced in a leaked grand jury report that the CU-Boulder athletics
department used sex, booze and drugs to entice football recruits.
The CU Board of Regents hired public relations specialist Christopher
Simpson in February to help the Regents deal with the leaked grand juryreport and the controversy surrounding ethnic studies Ward Churchill, who
compared some victims of the World Trade Center attacks to Nazi Adolf
Eichmann.
Simpson is also working with the CU system to draft a public relations
strategy that highlights the positive accomplishments of the University.
Jeff Christen-Mitchell, president of the Boulder chapter of the National
Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws (NORML), said CU is trying
to stamp out the 4/20 celebration only for the sake of public relations
because administrators are "running scared."
He said if students choose to smoke pot at Farrand Field, it would be an
act of civil disobedience.
"This country is made out of people, historically, who will go against the
rules and go against the grain," Christen-Mitchell said. "To me, there is
nothing more American right now than asserting your rights when they're
taken away by a bureaucratic government."
Pot doesn't kill people, Christen-Mitchell said.
A Boulder non-profit called Safer Alternative for Enjoyable Recreation
(SAFER) announced last week it was pursuing a student referendum calling
for the University to acknowledge marijuana as a comparatively safer
alternative to alcohol and that CU treat the drug as such when giving out
punishments to students.
If CU and the police decide to eliminate the Farrand Field celebration
altogether, pot enthusiasts can celebrate at an event sponsored by NORML
at the Boulder Band Shell, Christen-Mitchell said.
"We'll save them the embarrassment of having CU being a billboard for
marijuana smokers," he said.
Contact Matt Williams on this story at 303-443-6272 ext. 111 or
williams@...
###
For more information, contact:
SAFER
P.O. Box 1852
Boulder, CO 80306-1852
(720) 275-8230http://www.saferchoice.org/--------------------New Listing by Phone--Phoenix: Kayler Russell no_freetears@... 602-299-4920 [3416 West Mauna Loa Lane, Phoenix, AZ 854053]----------From: bakersfieldcollegenorml@...Dear Mr. Beal,
Could you kindly change my contact info for the MMM in Bakersfield on your websites, emails and posters?.....below is what is posted on your email updates....
Bakersfield: Morgan A. Collier bakersfieldcollegenorml@... (661) 932-8599 [2003 20th St, Bakersfield, CA 93301]
Could you please update this to include my contact number. what you have listed above is my personal phone number and my work address...... here is my correct contact info.....Morgan Collier *****661-831-5144****
2504 Carlita Ct.Bakersfield, CA. 93304
If you could please, please, please update and change my phone number in your directories, i would sincerely appreciate it!!!!!
Regards,
Morgan Collier
President,
Bakersfield College NORML
Director,
Bakersfield NORML--------------------------------
Please forward widely! Million Marijuana March. MMM.The MMM 2005 city links are always clickable at these mirrors below.
MMM world map with many more links. Frequently updated:
http://corporatism.tripod.com/mmm2005map.htm andhttp://www.corporatism.netfirms.com/mmm2005map.htm and
http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/mmm2005map.htm andhttp://members.fortunecity.com/multi19/mmm2005map.htm
Click the region names in the left chart column to go to their city lists.Click the "countries" link to go to the list of countries.Worldwide.
With less than 5% of the world's population
the USA has over 2.2 million of the world's9 million prisoners!:http://corporatism.netfirms.com/rates.htm and
http://corporatism.netfirms.com/world.htm
MMM (Million Marijuana March).City list and world map:
http://corporatism.netfirms.com/mmm2005map.htmYahoo Group:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cannabisaction*************************BUSHWHACKED!!****************************From: John McCall
To: agr@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 6:09 PM
Subject: New Attack on Raves and Live Music
New Attack on Raves and Live Music
Defend Your Right to Dance!
Dear John,
Last year our supporters helped raise attention to an outrageous abuse of power in Racine, Wisconsin, where hundreds of music fans were ticketed for being in a crowded nightclub where a few people used drugs. Those ticketed had no drugs on them. The police didn't even have any evidence that they had ever used drugs. Their only "crime" was dancing at a nightclub where other people who used drugs were arrested. Although only three drug arrests were made, police issued citations to 445 innocent attendees with a penalty of $968 each for being "patrons of a disorderly house." Thanks to a public outcry from people like you, work by the Drug Policy Alliance, and an ACLU lawsuit, the citations were ultimately dismissed.
Now, it has happened again; this time in Flint, Michigan. On Saturday the local police raided a popular nightclub, Club What's Next, and ticketed music fans who were attending a dance night known as "Getting Lucky" (the DJs included Halluci-Nate, Sparkimus Prime, White Rabbit, Captain Cheddar and California's Dj Primo.) While some people were arrested for possessing or selling illegal drugs, most people were ticketed for "frequenting a drug establishment," a misdemeanor offense.
Speak out against this abuse of power now.
That's right. In Flint, Michigan (and many other cities) if you go out dancing on a Saturday night and the police happen to arrest other people at the club for drugs, you could be charged with a drug crime even though you had nothing to do with drugs. These innocent party-goers now face up to 90 days in jail and a $500 fine. They also face a criminal record with all the legal and social barriers that brings. Several people at the club that night told us club-goers were also subjected to strip searches, including full cavity searches - even though they had nothing to do with drugs. Imagine the police walking into your favorite bar or nightclub and making you submit to a strip search for no reason! Imagine spending 90 days in jail or paying a $500 fine for dancing!
The raid on Club What's Next was conducted by Flint's Special Operations and Crime Area Target Team units, along with the Flint Area Narcotics Group and the Genesee County Sheriff's Posse. We're looking into whether or not federal Byrne grant money helped finance the raids. (On a side note, any law enforcement agency that has the word "posse" in it should be suspect).
You can send a message that this type of action is unacceptable by doing two things:
1) Contact the Flint City Council and Mayor and let them know how appalled you are that the city mistreats music fans and allows the police to punish people for the crimes of others.
2) Forward this alert to your e-mail lists and to friends and family. We need to flood the Flint political establishment with faxes and emails.The Drug Policy Alliance would like to give a special thanks to Will Patterson at the Electronic Music Defense Fund (EM:DEF) for alerting us to this scandal. He found out about the incident because one of the club-goers filed an incident report on EM:DEF's web site. If your rights are ever violated by the police at a music event, you can file a similar report there. Copies of incident reports go to EM:DEF, the ACLU, and the Drug Policy Alliance.-------------Kissing Saddam's Military Muscle
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/032105C.shtmlAnnan Will Recommend Sweeping Reforms for the UN
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/032105E.shtml
Israeli Photographs Show Extensive New Illegal Settlements
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/032105F.shtml
Iraq Invasion May Be Start of the Age of Oil Scarcity
http://www.truthout.org/issues_05/032105EA.shtmlOhio's Blackwell Ridicules Election Fraud "Conspiracy"
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/032205X.shtml
Strange Bedfellows Unite to Fight Patriot Act
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/032305G.shtml
Michael T. Klare | The Energy Crunch to Come
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/032305E.shtml
Expert Witness: Afghan Detainees Brutalized
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/032305Y.shtmlAfter Drug Scare, No Easy Answers for Depressed Kids
http://www.truthout.org/issues_05/032305HA.shtmlUK Was Warned Iraq Invasion Illegalhttp://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/032405Z.shtml
Cartoonist faces Greek jail for blasphemy
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1443815,00.html
He meant it as a piece of religious satire, a playful look at the life of Jesus. But Gerhard Haderer's depiction of Christ as a binge-drinking friend of Jimi Hendrix and naked surfer high on cannabis has caused a furore that could potentially land the cartoonist in jail.Haderer did not even know that his book, The Life of Jesus, had been published in Greece until he received a summons to appear in court in Athens in January charged with blasphemy.He was given a six-month suspended sentence in absentia, but if he loses his appeal next month his sentence could be increased to two years.
Haderer's book is the first to be banned in Greece for more than 20 years, and he is the first artist to fall prey of the European arrest warrant system since it was introduced in June 2002.
Yesterday in Vienna, a group of prominent writers and poets called a press conference to draw attention to the plight of Haderer, an Austrian, whose case they claim is crucial to the freedom of international artists.
"It is unbelievable that a person can write a book in his home country and be condemned and threatened with imprisonment by another," said Nikki Conrad, a human rights expert who organised yesterday's press conference. "But he is not going to just sit back and accept this injustice. He is prepared to take this to the European court of human rights. When Gerhard first got the summons he thought it was a joke. But now he is starting to get a bit nervous."
Mr Conrad added that a 1,000-signature petition of international artists, signed by people including the Nobel prize winner Elfriede Jelinek, would be delivered to the EU within the next two weeks.
"This campaign is crucial for the future freedom of international artists. Haderer is unique and situations like this will inhibit his artistic style," said the poet Gerhard Ruiss.
The Austrian comedian Hubert Kramar, who is next week due to star in a new satirical play about Christ, turned up to the press conference dressed as Jesus. "We are supposed to be living in a democratic society. Greece is in Europe and the whole idea of the European Union is that everything is supposed to be more open. But what happened to Haderer is scaring artists like me," he said.
Haderer's 40-page book has been already published in seven countries, including Germany, where 100,000 copies have been sold. Well known in Germany for his weekly illustrations in the news magazine Stern, he is to appeal against his six-month sentence in Athens on April 13.
--------------Chechnya
Chechnya: After Maskhadov's murder the EU must take a good look at its peace planRome, 9 March - President Maskhadov, murdered on 8 March, represented for the Transnational Radical Party a concrete chance for peace for the Chechnian people. The peace plan proposed by President Maskhadov, and supported by the Radical Party (link to the appeal), is based on cease-fire and on the United Nations' temporary administration. In the communication of 9 March, the Radical Party states "let's hope that the Chechnian Establishment will have the know-how to defend the non-violent positions he had proposed, leaving no room for Basaev's terrorist violence. This is why the Radical Party is committed to request that the international community, starting from the European Union, undertake to deal with that peace plan so as to stop helplessly watching genocide, "terrorist war", but build peace founded on justice and not on terror.MASKHADOV'S DEATH
I was quite struck by Maskhadov's murder and this shows that the old KGB methods have not been repudiated at all. The Italian government, naturally being a faithful ally of Moscow more than of Washington (thanks to our Prime Minister), just stands there in silence before disgraceful and unacceptable violations of human dignity. Unfortunately President Bush acts less incisively than Clinton, maybe because the counterpart who was once Eltsin is now Putin. It is strange that our Prime Minister calls all the men of the centre-left Communists. Most of them have never been communists. And he speaks of Putin, former KGB man, of the armed wing of the USSR, as a great friend.
I hope you can still promote campaigns of awareness because the situation worsens continually.
Stefano Giossi
Reply: Our will to promote political campaigns about this is certain; the possibility depends on the strength given to the Radical Party by its members and supporters.****!!!IBOGAINE TREATMENT NOW EURO 1500 IN HOLLAND--CALL SARA, 0113134-624-1770 !!!****From:nick227@... Subject:RE: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc
-----Original Message-----
From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet@...]
Sent: 19 March 2005 18:11
To: ibogaine@...
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc
Nick scribbled in his usual deluded and completely out of touch
with any sort
of reality connected to my own life anyway
Well, I figure saying this stuff is just a way for Preston and others to
keep us out. "You haven't been a heroin addict so I don't have to
listen to
what you have to say." Routine shit the mind does when it doesn't want to
hear something -<
I almost let you get my goat here Nick, but then realized yet
again, you are
so "not in my club" that you aren't worth my bother any more.
;-))
Hey Preston,
Many thanks for this one. It's a great response, man. "I almost listened towhat you were saying there about me shutting people out by saying they're
not junkies and so not like me....then I realized you're not a junkie so I
don't have to listen to what you're saying."
That said, I will allow myself one second or two to say you've
completely ignored every single thing I've ever written or said
apparently
if that's really what you think of me Nick, but that's ok with
me. I could
care less any more about you or your opinion (except that once
again, I've
bothered to reply, so I obviously don't completely don't care,
just almost
completely). You've certainly not gotten a single thing right about me or
the way I view life or even you apparently, but again, that's ok with me.
You're ... (short useless statement about my feelings about you snipped
here.)
So, Have a life Nick and I Hope it's a happy one for you,
but you bore
the hell out of me, specially answering emails that are nearly
three weeks
old now.
Sorry about that, been in Bali, snorting liquid tobacco with Ratu Bagus. No
internet. My life's happy, yes.
Nick
For those who've been writing about getting clean or clear using
ibogaine lately (I did see some messages come through here in the
last week
or two related to that, no?), more power to you all, and I hopeeverything
is going well for you all. Randy, I hope you're still scaring the
straightfolk with your new you, and to the rest of you, have a great day too.
Peace and love,
Preston
"Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
mistaken for madness"Richard Davenport-HinesFrom:dana@... Subject:Re: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc On Mar 19, 2005, at 1:11 PM, Preston Peet wrote:
That said, I will allow myself one second or two to say you've completely ignored every single thing I've ever written or said apparently if that's really what you think of me Nick, but that's ok with me. I could care less any more about you or your opinion (except that once again, I've bothered to reply, so I obviously don't completely don't care, just almost completely). You've certainly not gotten a single thing right about me or the way I view life or even you apparently, but again, that's ok with me. You're ... (short useless statement about my feelings about you snipped here.)
So, Have a life Nick and I Hope it's a happy one for you, but you bore the hell out of me, specially answering emails that are nearly three weeks old now.
You know, the problem is, this is not really about Preston and Nick.
After a successful meeting with Cong. Nadler's new aide, who's totally into ibo, I contacted Gene Guerrero at OSI (Soros) about finding Republican co-sponsors for an appropriation, and Gene had never heard of Ibogaine.
This is a guy who works with Nadelman, who certainly knows about ibo, but just never tells anyone else it's a live option.
"The leading personalities of the legalization movement have decided there is no chance of a hallucinogen being approved to treat addiction," quoth David Guard.
The problem is not amongst us, the ibo list. The problem is Peter Cohen and others leading (in the words of Al White) "a little concerted effort to keep this thing from the public."
All in the name of freedom for users of illicit substances. "For our own good."
And yes, Peter, I understand all your arguments. I just don't agree with them. And you have never responded, point by point, to a thing I've said.Dana/cnwFrom:ptpeet@... Subject:Re: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc
You know, the problem is, this is not really about Preston and Nick.<
understatement of the year.;-))
Peace and love,Preston PeetFrom:nick227@... Subject:RE: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pc
-----Original Message-----
From: Dana Beal [mailto:dana@...]
Sent: 20 March 2005 16:55
To: ibogaine@...
Cc: cohen.cedro@...
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Thoughts for pcOn Mar 19, 2005, at 1:11 PM, Preston Peet wrote:
That said, I will allow myself one second or two to say you've
completely ignored every single thing I've ever written or said
apparently if that's really what you think of me Nick, but that's okwith me. I could care less any more about you or your opinion (except
that once again, I've bothered to reply, so I obviously don't
completely don't care, just almost completely). You've certainly not
gotten a single thing right about me or the way I view life or even
you apparently, but again, that's ok with me. You're ... (short
useless statement about my feelings about you snipped here.)
So, Have a life Nick and I Hope it's a happy one for you, but you
bore the hell out of me, specially answering emails that are nearlythree weeks old now.You know, the problem is, this is not really about Preston and Nick.
Hey Dana,
Er, I think it is actually. But feel free to leap in and introduce a stringof not so relevant material (in your timeless manner) anyway.
After a successful meeting with Cong. Nadler's new aide, who's totally
into ibo, I contacted Gene Guerrero at OSI (Soros) about finding
Republican co-sponsors for an appropriation, and Gene had never heard
of Ibogaine.
This is a guy who works with Nadelman, who certainly knows about ibo,
but just never tells anyone else it's a live option.
"The leading personalities of the legalization movement have decided
there is no chance of a hallucinogen being approved to treataddiction," quoth David Guard.
The problem is not amongst us, the ibo list. The problem is Peter Cohen
and others leading (in the words of Al White) "a little concerted
effort to keep this thing from the public."
I don't think Peter is doing this really. He's a social theorist. He doesn't
have a gripe with ibogaine itself, as I understand it, he just doesn't like
the language people use to promote it. I'm posting what he wrote me, and a
response, today below.NickFrom: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@...]
Sent: 19 March 2005 22:57
To: nick227@...
Subject: RE: dissing a Substance!!
Of course my position has political implications,and I look at attitudesor scientific positions not only from a purely theoretical view.
I do not have a problem with ibogaine as a substance. I do not quite grasp
what you could mean by saying that ibogaine 'does not fit in' with me. I
have no problem with any substance people like to take, for any reason. I
have a discussion with the ibo clan about what they make out of ibo and the
language they use to attribute functionality to it because of the politics
behind it, exactly because I perceive the ibo people as potential collegues.
I would have never gone thru the trouble if I did not like many of them orfound their struggle without meaning.
I think that fighting for a free use of ibo is worthwile, but not by
identifying with the ennemy. I speak about constructed reasons for usingibo, not about a substance per se.
Maybe my infighting serves no one and nothing. But I hope I have been ableto at least illustrate what I mean, and what the the ibo clan language means
according to me. If not I either stop or do a better job.
pc
Dear Peter,
Many thanks for clarifying that you have no problem with ibogaine itself. I
understand now that it is merely the way that some people promote ibogaine
that causes you to react in the way you do. I admire your position on drugs.The only thing is.....ibogaine is a drug which does, experientially, have
multiple effects useful in breaking chemical dependency - the physical
aspects of dependency, that is, not the societal aspects (to the degree that
they can be separated). So....what I would ask you is - how would you
propose ibogaine should be promoted?Nick
From: Peter Cohen [mailto:cohen.cedro@...]
Sent: 21 March 2005 07:35
To: nick227@...
Subject: RE: dissing a Substance!!
Dear Nick, the behaviour we diagnose with the word 'dependency' is a complex learned behaviour that is not 'chemical', but useful in someone's life. Like all behaviours it has a physical side to it, no different than wanting to be world champion wrestling or having learned to look left when crossing the street
It is exactly the mirroring of the primitive 'possession' language by the ibo clan that I have tried to expose.
Have you ever met a person who just grew into intensive cocaine use, for whom it was useful and pleasant, break this behaviour with ibo,against his/her will? You must have been struck by the fact that only people who want to change their drug use survival habits report some help from ibo.Changing one's ways, certainly after having learned them for a long time, is difficult, even if it is about simple things like crossong the road, as I said often before.
I am surprised you believe in the chemical dependency language that our voodoo (addiction) doctors speak.
Anyway, if some one would want promote the use of ibo ( inside the whole ritual of application and surroundings of sympathy) one could say: we have found that the rite the passage from one type of lifestyle to another is sometimes eased by the ibo fest. We have not a clue as to how it works.Maybe it is very symbolical, and the love inside the ritual is important as well, but actually, we do not know.But who cares? When it serves, it serves, and if it does not, tant pis, we will find something else for you.Togther we will find a solution for your desired change of survival skills.And we think you have every right to entertain these rituals, drug included, because we think adults are free to use any drug they fancy.
But the addiction/possession talk of our NIDA priests should be avoided at all costs, because it makes the ibo clients into a type of sick being they are definitely not. They may have serious mental problems, or existential ones, but that is a whole other story.
pc
Hi Peter,
Thanks for your reply. Personally, my background is more therapist and so I can see both uses and disadvantages of social labels like "addict" or "junkie." Yes, there can be negative reinforcement and the rooting of bad feelings but, on the plus side, they can also get someone to really see where they are and not live in a dream world. When the realization that one is in a state of chemical dependence is recognized, that they physically cannot seem to stop using a drug, there usually develops a dynamic in the individual where one side wants to stop and another does not. If someone is coming for therapy to try and assist them stop, then it normal for the therapist to push the side in them that wants to stop.
As I see it, your theory doesn't really deal with the nitty-gritty of helping someone who wants to stop using say, heroin, and yet finds they cannot do this alone, that they need help. The ibogaine, the therapy, all this stuff is available to help push the side in someone that wants to stop. There are other things that support the other side, and it is usually a bit of a battle. It seems to me that you would, in this situation, just tell the person to stop if they no longer want to use.
Also...thanks for putting out your ideas about how to promote ibogaine. Might I ask why you are so keen to state that "we have not a clue how it works"? It seems to me that there is some understanding, perhaps more psychological than neurochemical.
Thank you for an interesting discussion
Nick
The only thing is.....ibogaine is a drug which does, experientially, have multiple effects useful in breaking chemical dependency - the physical aspects of dependency, that is, not the societal aspects (to the degree that they can be separated). So....what I would ask you is - how would you propose ibogaine should be promoted?
Nick
--
-------------------------------------------------
Peter D.A. Cohen Ph.D
University of Amsterdam
Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO)
Office: Wibautstraat 4, Room D5.26
1091 GM Amsterdam The Netherlands
mail address: postbox 94208
1090 GE Amsterdam
email: cohen.cedro@...
tel: +31-20-525 4278 or mobile: +31 6227 89441
fax +31-20-525 4317
World Wide Web: http://www.cedro-uva.org (with a large selection of
original CEDRO reports and publications in dutch, english and other
languages)HSLotsof@... Subject:Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!
Dear Peter and Nick,
Thank you for your responses and to you Nick for sharing the communications
between yourself and Peter.
On the matter of language, the language used to describe ibogaine and
ibogaine therapy was chosen as it appeared to be required for drug regulatory
development issues. We could not say to the FDA or Ministries of Health, that we
wished ibogaine approved for general betterment of the world. We had to usespecific language that would demonstrate ibogaine was useful in treating a medical
condition. After all that is what medications are for.That aside, Peter, as Nick asks, what language would you use both to the drug
user who wishes to take ibogaine to allow them to stop heroin use as
sometimes it can be problematic to continue heroin use and to the regulatory agencies
who would hopefully allow ibogaine as an approved drug so that it could be
delivered to anyone who needed it through either private or social medical
insurance?
Thanks again to both of you.
HowardFrom:nick227@... Subject:RE: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!
Hi Howard,
Thanks for bringing up such an excellent point. I got a message back from
Peter. He seemed a bit upset that I'd copied his mails to the list. I guess
I should have checked with him that it was alright first. Anyway, he doesn't
seem to want to discuss any more and appears to just want to hold hisposition that the ibo-camp's language is wrong and that's just how it is.
It's disappointing that he chose to bring things to an end precisely at the
moment such interesting points were being raised and I wrote and told him
this. Maybe he'll change his mind later.NickFrom:dana@... Subject:[Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
As I said, his mind is made up, don't confuse him with facts. What's worse is that he speaks for a broad swath of the legalization movement, and generally speaking, they won't deign even tp debate it with us. Ibogaine, the spiritual alternative to opiates, simply doesn't exist, as far as they're concerned, and should be ignored and suppressed "for our own good."
Dana/cnwFrom:myeboga@... Subject:Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!! Peter,You state:
'dependency' is a complex learned behaviour.As much as I do not understand the social structural arguments in this discussion I think I do understand one part of it and it is this: It is entirely atheist in its approach and the manner in which you attempt to denigrate the discussion regarding spiritual possession as an aside to the physical dependence is in my opinion the height of arrogance on your part based on clear cut ignorance.It is also a way to undermine the gathering of knowledge and thus ironically is (for someone clearly as intellectual as you are) anti-intellectual also.Peter you are absolutely right to say that dependency is ultimately an issue for the person themselves to resolve on an inner level as opposed to it being rooted solely in physical dependency issues. I read that as a soul issue - psycho/spirituality. You read it as a psychological one.IMO you are wrong to assume that dependency is nothing more than a psychological issue (complex learned behaviour) simply because you are able to construct an intellectual argument which goes way above most of our heads and which only gets an airing for the simple fact that is practically impossible to prove matters of spirituality to anyone. It is a personal experience and one which you obviously have decided to distance yourself from.I suspect you wont enter this discussion with me because it draws you into an area you clearly have major issues with: spirituality. Nor will you even consider these possibilities.That's all very well but before you take your crusade to the point of undermining those who are finding spiritual benefits which you have no idea of, take a moment to consider how destructive and unnecessary your position is and ask yourself why are you so hell bent on denying the interpretation others use for what works for them?Perhaps when this crusade of yours is over we can target all the indigenous peoples on the planet and systematically wipe out every indigenous spiritual healing system in existence and replace them with a drugs for all paradise?I respectfully suggest you adopt a little more tolerance and latitude in your viewpoints and drop your prejudice towards the spiritual pursuits of others.With love,
LeeFrom:dana@... Subject:Re: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
On Mar 22, 2005, at 12:14 PM, Eye of the Bhogi wrote:
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:00:09 -0500, Dana Beal <dana@...> wrote:
"What's worse is that he speaks for a broad swath of the legalization movement,
and generally speaking, they won't deign even to debate it with us."
I'm still a little confused about the intricacies of this opposition -
this particular swath of legalization to which you refer, are they
advocates of making heroin legal on a principle of self-determination
about what one chooses to do with one's body?
Yup. That is the given rationale.
And they distance
themselves from or suppress debate about Ibogaine's unique chemistry
because the logic of their argument is somehow undermined by the
existence of and advocacy for alternative sacred modalities?
It is apparently self-evident from their point of view.
How do Ibogaine's mechanisms threaten their position?
Junk is the mold of monopoly and possession. The addict stands by while his junk legs carry him straight in on the junk beam to relapse. Junk is quantitative and accurately measurable. The more junk you use the less you have and more you have the more you use. All the hallucingen drugs are considered sacred by those who use them--there are Peyote Cults and Bannisteria Cults, Hashish Cults and Mushroom Cults--"the Sacred Mushrooms of Mexico enable a man to see God"--but no one ever suggested that junk is sacred. There are no opium cults. Opium is profane and quantitative like money. I have heard that there was once a beneficent non-habit-forming junk in India. It was called soma and is pictured as a beautiful blue tide. If soma ever existed the Pusher was there to bottle it and monopolize it and sell it and it turned into plain old time JUNK.
Junk is the ideal product...the ultimate merchandize. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy... The junk merchant does not sell his product to the consumer, he sells the consumer to his product. He does not improve and simplify his merchandise. He degrades and simplifies the client. He pays his staff in junk.
Junk yields a basic formula of "evil" virus: The Algebra of Need. The face of "evil" is always the face of total need. A dope fiend is a man in total need of dope. Beyond a certain frequency need knows absolutely no limit or control. In the words of total need: "Wouldn't you?" Yes you would. You would lie, cheat, inform on your friends, steal, do anything to satisfy total need. Because you would be in a state of total sickness, total possession, and not in a position to act in any other way. Dope fiends are sick people who cannot act other than they do. A rabid dog cannot choose but bite. Assuming a self-righteous position is nothing to the the purpose unless your purpose be to keep the junk virus in operation. And junk is a big industry. I recall talking to an American who worked for the Aftosa Commission in Mexico. Six hundred a month plus expense account:
"How long will the epidemic last?" I enquired.
"As long as we can keep it going... And yes...maybe the aftosa will break out in South America," he said dreamily.
If you wish to alter or annihilate a pyramid of numbers in a serial relation, you alter or remove the bottom number. If we wish to annihilate the junk pyramid, we must start with the bottom of the pyramid: the Addict in the Street. And stop tilting quixotically for the "higher ups," so called, all of whom are immediately replaceable. The addict in the street who must have junk to live is the one irreplaceable factor in the junk equation. When there are no more addicts to buy junk there will be no more junk traffic. As long as junk need exists, someone will service it.
Can you explain
the political groupings in plainer terms that don't disparagingly
invoke names and personalities (with their related histories of
personal animus and leftist wrangling)?
I can only speak from my experience. Broadly, virtually all of the people in Cohen's camp are drug REFORMERS.
Ibogaine is revolutionary.
I also wonder about grouping all who advocate for knowledge of theSacred Tree into one "ibo-camp," especially seeing as there were some
pretty divergent views expressed at the end of the Forum.
Being treated as a cult is always fairly annoying. That's why my first post was entitled, "Science, not a Cult". So either P.C. won't submit his position to peer review, or he regards us as OTHER than his peers.With watery, aqueous, liquid love (world water day!), Rachel
Our other big thing is water reclamation to reverse the worst effects of Global Warming, BTW.Dana/cnwFrom:freedomroot@... Subject:Re: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
I would think the council table is large enough, or we could add in
those expanders, for both reformers and revolutionaries. Doesn't it
takes two wings for a bird to fly?
Perhaps though we are riding a dragonfly that has four... love, rachelFrom:nick227@... Subject:RE: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
Hi Rachel,
I don't know how much of a "movement" the legalize heroin thing is. Perhaps
Dana could say more. But, as I see it, Peter has no problem with ibogaine
itself but is upset that ibogaine people use the "language of addiction" so
much. Terms like "addict", "non-addict", "dependent", "treatment",
"therapy", etc upset him as his take is that these are the words of the Evil
Empire - the medical establishment. For sure, many people into ibogaine use
this language.
He doesn't seem to like it that ibogaine offers to maintain this language
AND effectively treat addiction because this threatens his perspective.
That's my take, anyway.
Personally, I like his position, but I do think he could be a little moreopen to different ideas. I don't know whether Peter represents a broad base
of activists or is more a one-off. If he does represent a broader base ofpeople or if there actually is a Legalize Heroin movement developing that
opposes ibogaine in this way then it would be great to have more
communication with them.NickFrom:ekkijdfg@... Subject:Re: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
its always nice to read some burroughs. thank you dana ;)
what this excerpt shows is how ibogaine could perhaps reduce the profit-margins of heroin-dealers, but it doesnīt support prohibitionists, either. not only the junky on the street, but also prohibition itself, with its reversible police/state vs. junky/underground logic, keeps the junk-show alive, as burroughs shows with the aftosa analogy. thus i read this text as a support for the legalization movement instead of a thread for themFrom:ekkijdfg@... Subject:Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!
dear Leeiīm with you in that i consider ibogaine as something very special and divine, a thing peter maybe doesnīt get. i admire what you do in terms of eboga healing. still i have some arguments against your argumentation. that doesnīt mean i agree with everything Peter says.
Am 22.03.2005 um 12:45 schrieb Lee Albert:Peter,You state:'dependency' is a complex learned behaviour.
As much as I do not understand the social structural arguments in this discussion I think I do understand one part of it and it is this: It is entirely atheist in its approach and the manner in which you attempt to denigrate the discussion regarding spiritual possession as an aside to the physical dependence is in my opinion the height of arrogance on your part based on clear cut ignorance.an "atheist approach" in science, no matter if math or sociology, is suitable. social inequity was oftentimes justified as god given.(even today george bush uses a certain religious rhethoric to underpin his foreign policy.) i agree it is sad that Peter labels voodoo priests and shamans as primitive to back up his arguments. maybe not his argumentation, but his position deserves support: contemporary societies hysterical war against some drugs and its users is irrational and wrong.It is also a way to undermine the gathering of knowledge and thus ironically is (for someone clearly as intellectual as you are) anti-intellectual also.
Peter you are absolutely right to say that dependency is ultimately an issue for the person themselves to resolve on an inner level as opposed to it being rooted solely in physical dependency issues. I read that as a soul issue - psycho/spirituality. You read it as a psychological one.if you call it psychological or spiritual, is this so different? but in peters point of view, as i understand it, there are enviromental/social factors involved in dependency, too.IMO you are wrong to assume that dependency is nothing more than a psychological issue
again: he doesnīt say that. you learn and perform behaviour in society, donīt you?
(complex learned behaviour) simply because you are able to construct an intellectual argument which goes way above most of our heads
compared to most academic social theory, he keeps it very simple.
and which only gets an airing for the simple fact that is practically impossible to prove matters of spirituality to anyone.
thats exactly why he canīt use spirituality as an argument. itīs his job to present provable concepts.
It is a personal experience and one which you obviously have decided to distance yourself from.
we donīt know that for sure. even if he is a materialist atheist, so what?
I suspect you wont enter this discussion with me because it draws you into an area you clearly have major issues with: spirituality. Nor will you even consider these possibilities.thatīs an aggressive assumption.
That's all very well but before you take your crusade to the point of undermining those who are finding spiritual benefits which you have no idea of, take a moment to consider how destructive and unnecessary your position is and ask yourself why are you so hell bent on denying the interpretation others use for what works for them?I donīt see how Peters position is destructive and unnecessary. Peter as well as most ibonauts wants a change in drug poilcy. We are allies here. Appart from that i donīt see how he detains anyone from taking ibogaine.
Perhaps when this crusade of yours is over we can target all the indigenous peoples on the planet and systematically wipe out every indigenous spiritual healing system in existence and replace them with a drugs for all paradise?this is just another offenseI respectfully suggest you adopt a little more tolerance and latitude in your viewpointsPeter fights for more tolerance concerning drug use and we should be tolerant against his viewpoints, too.
and drop your prejudice towards the spiritual pursuits of others.what prejudice exactly?With love,Lee
....peaceekkiFrom:myeboga@... Subject:Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!! Hi Ekki,
I have no problem whatsoever that you have arguments against my argumentation. In fact I do myself.
What I am trying to do is highlight my distaste (without getting too intellectual) for the way this whole discussion on Peters part (from the little I understand) seeks to belittle the unique spiritual qualities that eboga offers and I do not accept it should be put on a par with all other mind altering substances.
In order to reach agreement with the purely social scientific discussion that Peter appears to put forward (I stress "appears" as frankly most of it is over my head) it seems to me that one has to treat ibogaine as some kind of generic drug and frankly that is the same as asking amazonian shamans or african pygmies or whatever group to diss their own spirituality.That I find offensive. However more importantly the whole discussion in the end means zip to me as it does not affect in any way the reality of eboga or my own healing process via its spirituality. Hence I have not spent hours trying to get my head around it other than to pick up on what comes across as offensive comments towards its sacredness.
This email or any other email on the subject won't make a dam bit of difference to the process of getting from ones present state to a better state unless of course it is part of a process of releasing the shadow within oneself that has been suppressed.
And, for me, getting to a state of acceptance and love is the name of the game.
with love
Leeekkijdfg@... Subject:Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!!
yo! acceptance and love! even to blasphemous Peter Cohen ;)
acceptance and love is the best advertisment for ibogaine! and for spirituality, too.much better than insults.cheers ekki.From:myeboga@... Subject:Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!! Ekki,
I agree with you and acknowledge there was a certain amount of insult to my argument. If it was out of measure to the argument I was responding too I apologise. I am not by nature an ignorant man.
Yet, I have to say that if someone seeks to use denigrating language to support their argument, especially when it cuts into other peoples spirituality time and time again, I think a certain amount of sharp response is in order - between friends. I don't think PC is unable to take that. (He can defend this himself if he wishes.) It might make him reconsider the manner in which he constructs his arguments and if he is atheist in his views he might realise better than to use condescending language to win his point towards those who are not and rather create a broad church of support.
The question to me is what is the threat to Peter that this spirituality seems to pose which causes him to denigrate it?
With abundant love to you and to Peter!
LeeFrom:Ajtcservice@... Subject:Re: [Ibogaine] RE: dissing a Substance!! In a message dated 3/22/2005 2:50:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, myeboga@... writes:
This email or any other email on the subject won't make a dam bit of difference to the process of getting from ones present state to a better state unless of course it is part of a process of releasing the shadow within oneself that has been suppressed.
And, for me, getting to a state of acceptance and love is the name of the game.
Hi, My name is Annie and I'm fairly new here! Doing a lot of observing, but I need to ask Lee, Ekki, or anyone about the highlighted text above. HOW DOES ONE GET TO THE PROCESS OF RELEASING THE SHADOW WITHIN ONESELF THAT HAS BEEN SUPPRESSED? I truly feel like 3 years ago, I had gotten to a state of acceptance and love. But, I remain in a frozen state, like I cant move on. This amazes me that so much incredible information came to me and I cant apply it to me or my behavior!
I met a wonderful person here last week, who gave me some hope when I was feeling really discouraged. He said that Ibogaine was the missing link in releasing the "shadow". I hope to be receiving treatment soon and of course I needed it yesterday. I've done a fair amount of drugs in my life, but was always to scared to try hallucinogenic. (Fear of mentally loosing my mind) Funny thing is that I have lost my mind over the years and now, I have never felt more excited and certain that this is what I need.
Does LSD or Mushrooms have similar or the same healing benefits as Ibogaine? I have spent a lot of time researching Ibogaine treatment centers, similar drugs to Ibogaine, and of course places to purchase Ibogaine (Ha Ha - Can't blame anyone for not being willing to ship to the US though). Finances are the only thing standing in my way, or I would have already boarded the boat and sailed out to sea! Eric T. came highly recommended to me from many subscribers and thank you, he's been very helpful and very accommodating. Things are looking up!
I have learned a lot the past two weeks while reading all the e-mails. I just want to say thanks to all for the good, useful information and to some for the entertaining debates. I hope not to offend anyone with that statement, because I too will be drawn into one of those debates, I'm sure.
Annie
myeboga@...
Subject:Re: [Ibogaine] RE: The Shadow - Annie Hi Annie,
I think the acceptance and integration of the Shadow is part of the final step in healing. It is held in place by all kind of ego constraints such as guilt, fear of hurting someone and so on. It takes a long time to begin to stop projecting ones childhood relationships onto ones present day to day relationships and thus undermining your true self.
My own experience of the Shadow is this: the Shadow is me but I put a psychological barrier between the part of my consciousness that i find acceptable and the part which I dont, i.e., the Shadow. Via eboga (ibogaine) I have had the distinct sense that I am looking at myself when I have encountered my Shadow. That was a revelation and indication that the barrier between myself (+) and myself(-) is breaking down to lead to myself(o) where + and - equal o :-).
Part of that process is about beginning to trust yourself and what you feel expresses the true you. As healing progresses and you look deeper at what is repressed such as hidden recollections of childhood depression, rejection and unmet need, the causes for feeling guilty about your present justified actions which express your true feelings are slowly lifted. This is a direct result of befriending the Shadow and releasing it.
(The Shadow rebels and screws with your present day life because it is imprisoned by the ego constraints put in place by an unwillingness to examined the past fueled in part by misplaced guilt, fear of shame of oneself, fear of destruction, wanting to believe in a lie as to who you are, ...... The Shadow is a part of you you ignore and is daily suffering.)
In your aware half (so to speak) you can be full of love and beauty but feel very constrained (depressed) as you describe. Unfortunately, the Shadow cannot be ignored and those who do risk committing acts of uncontroled anger in the future - sorry if that sounds scary. The Shadow will continue to push down on your life energy to be noticed because it is in fact you!
Each person is different and one cannot say how much work it will take for one person as opposed to another. However with the right intention and an involvement in eboga spirituality it is possible to slowly unravel the junk which seperates you from the Shadow and in time to face the Shadow and release your true self, ie, express your true self and not keep adding to the pressure on the Shadow leading to a massive blowout one day.
That said, the expression of ones true self that comes from befriending the Shadow requires taking risks. These risks however are supported by intuition and a deep sense that one is acting in a natural and healthy way. Of course one can make mistakes but the path to healing is about taking chances.
Please feel free to question further.
with Love,
Lee
P.S. My own personal work is laced with the Shadow at this present time.
From:krista.vaughan@... Subject:Re: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
To add my 2 cents to this argument I'm finding my own opinions
somewhere between Lee's overt spirituality and ekki's science and
reason. I don't know if I agree that ibogaine is without equal or par
to any other psychedelic, but my own opinion with regards to all of
what Peter Cohen has written is appreciating his point of view. He
does simplify rather then obscure as ekki said, if you compare what he
writes to social theorists, it is nowhere near the level of being way
over anyone's head, if you take the time to read his words instead of
having a strong emotional reaction to them. What I've come away with
is great respect for Peter Cohen who is taking so much of his time to
reply and talk with the "ibo-clan" as he calls it.
In a way it is a mirror of the never ending Nick Sandberg and Preston
Peet debate, where both of them continue communicating at length and
claim to not care and already have made their minds up. If this were
the case I don't think either one would spend so much of their time
corresponding with the other. By the same token if Dr. Cohen wassomewhere in his ivory tower setting down mandates from above, I find
it unlikely he would spend so much of his time reading and writing
replies to this list and people off it. It has to have taken him many
hours of time and thought to read and respond, which are not the
actions of a person who doesn't care.
I think everything I've said could be resaid as thanks for sharing
your thoughts, to all those who contribute here, I enjoy reading them
and thinking about things. Thanks for the Burroughs Dana, always a
good reminder.KVnick227@... Subject:RE: [Ibogaine] Politically Correct P.C.
Personally, I figure that this concept of "caring" clouds the issues a bit.
It's a bit of a veil. There is an attraction to the debate, something draws
the attention. You can call it "caring," I have done in the past, but
underneath this there's usually something else going on. When people talkabout wanting to face or encounter their shadow side, they can start with
what they consider they "care" about. Check out where the pay-off is, check
out the feelings suppressed by the outward visage of caring, check out the
social acceptance seemingly gained - at the likely expense of knowing who
they really are. I find it a tough business to look at this, not for the
faint-hearted.
For Dr Cohen there are plenty of pay-offs beneath the humanistic facade, it
seems. Elsewise, why does he pull out of a debate when the arguments against
his perspective start to accumulate? Are the cracks in the idealistic facade
becoming too evident, and the feelings held back starting to break through?
A shame to think this is so, that all this idealism is simply arising
through fear. Maybe I get to find out one day.NickFrom:myeboga@... Subject:[Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency Hi Peter,
Having had such a strong reaction to your views and not wishing to be a bigot I feel obliged to try and understand your position a little better. I hope you will be good enough to read what I have wrote here as I have given it a little thought. I guess if it were not for the spiritual aspects of the discussion I would not have ever got into this in the first place but here goes.
Disease vs Dependency
It seems to me that what you are arguing is that the label of addiction as disease as opposed to the label of addiction as dependency, feeds into the "enemy" camps view that drugs should be outlawed as they support a disease and are a disease.
By describing drug addiction as a straightforward physical dependence we cease to associate the label of diseased to someone who is drug dependent. (Of course the person who is dependent may have underlying diseases (psycho-spiritual for example) which keeps the dependence in place. You accept that I believe. Of course they theoretically may not.)
Thus in fighting for the right to take drugs we are fighting not to promote a disease but to give people choice when we remove the label of disease.
I like that manner of seeing things as it removes a lot of stigma attached to drug taking and allows those who are not suffering from an addiction to not be labeled diseased.
Thus it would be important to you that the ibo-camp revise their language of addiction as disease, and instead refer to addiction as dependence, as ibogaine is growing in strength and popularity and therefore a popularised disease model could undermine your arguments for drug liberalisation.
Ibogaine as Cure or Ibogaine as Addiction Interruptor
Within your view ibogaine can then be considered a tool for addition interruption but the problem comes in for you (as I see it) when ibogaine advocates describe their work as a cure for addiction. To remain within your viewpoint they should describe it as addiction interruption.
Ibogaine as Addiction Interruption
If we use this description of ibogaine then the question of its spirituality becomes an awkward issue. What point does it serve? If it is curing something other than addiction as dependency then that suggests a disease. What is the disease? If its not the dependency then what is it?
Ok, I agree it is not the dependency. I have many times stated that healing can involve a relapse into dependence but that that should not be seen as a failure to heal but simply a step along the way - if your aim is to heal the underlying issues supporting the dependence which will emerge with verocity from time to time. (Some argue that it can be purely genetic.)
Conclusion
We seem to both agree that the problem is not the addiction as such but what lies behind or supports it, i.e. addiction is not the disease.
In that case I would say we could label ibogaine as an addiction interruptor which also opens the door to a psycho-spiritual realm which allows the taker to examine & heal with the right intention the underlying reasons why they are unable to simply taper off their dependence as you suggest and become drug free if that is what they wish.
Saying that as things stand the current language of the ibo-camp appears to be the elimination of drugs as opposed to the liberalisation of drug policies which you advocate.
Question:
Why is this aspect of treating the underlying disease (if one exists) via eboga spirituality something to be undermined or played down? Are you willing to meet halfway and agree that ibogaine has perhaps revolutionary properties to deal with underlying disease, if on the other hand the ibo camp can change its language to describe ibogaine as an addiction interruptor and not a cure for addiction?
With love,
Lee
PS I sent this email to Peter separately.From:nick227@... Subject:RE: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency
Hey Lee,
Though it's a bit crazy to start debating over what Peter's views MIGHT be, I think what he was saying was that the whole concept of addiction or dependency ITSELF is invalid. These are just medical labels, given by bigots, to perfectly healthy individuals merely altering their daily consciousness through use of substances as is their inalienable right as free people. The whole concept of addiction or dependence is thus invalid.
What you or I might label "dependency" I think he would consider simply "learned behaviour," no different from any other learned behaviour, drug-oriented or otherwise. There's quite a few people out there who believe this. It's a good way of looking things, I think.
If it's so then you need to rewrite this piece avoiding terms like "dependency." Could be interesting! (Of course, the above might not be his view.)
Where we got to, in debating, was Howard pointing out that the language used by many ibogaine proponents, rooted in the medical phraseology of "addiction" that Peter so resents, arose originally from the action of bringing greater awareness of ibogaine's dependence-breaking characteristics to the medical community; that you had to use their language to talk to them. At this point Dr Cohen broke off communications, stating to me, seemingly of Howard's view, that it was the "language of the medical entrepreneur within a deeply and devout prohibitionist system." Really a shame the debate didn't continue, as it is interesting.
I guess the central questions for me are, "Is it wrong to bring ibogaine to the market to treat a condition the acceptance of the existence of which may exacerbate the condition itself? Which is truly best, to destroy the mindset that labels some people as dependent, or to treat dependence?"
Nick
From:mattzielinski@... Subject:RE: [Ibogaine] Disease vs Dependency HiLets say that the word addiction didn't exist and people would use heroin on a daily basis for years on end. Would that be a learned behaviour comparable to other learned behaviours as for example eating food>? you can go without food for a few days and u can function ok...u can get up... u can sleep....what about with H....try going without H for a few days .....i think if the word addiction didnt exist and we would never prohibited people from using whatever they wanted society as a whole would still put labels on people who use....i mean if u see someone everyday high on H just noding off and dreaming away what kind of conclusion could u come up with>? it sure is a great feeling and all but can u waste ur life in this vegetative state....u are not really functioning u dont really exist.....if u never tried H and u see someone in an ecstatic state dreaming away u would definetly want to try yet when u see that person again and he is in wd for whatever reason i bet u would think twice....but if all drugs were free and accessible all the time things would be much diff....
Warmest Regards
Matt68To join the Mindvox ibogaine list just send an email to ibogaine-subscribe@... if you please.Nothing more to it. You don't have to write anything in the subject or text area.-------------------------------------------------------------From: tents444@...http://www.corporatism.netfirms.com/mmmall.htm This page just created! Please forward and distribute widely.348 MMM cities worldwide since 1999!
MMM. All cities 1999 to date. Million Marijuana March. Global Cannabis Liberation in May. Worldwide since 1999. Cannabis events on the first Saturday in May, or that weekend, or thereabouts. Marches, meetings, rallies, raves, concerts, festivals, etc..******************************************************************************The following list is for internal use of Million Marijuana March Organizers. Many [personal addresses] in brackets are listed so that our affiliates can mail posters, buttons, etc. to each other, BUT are not for posting on websites. If you wish to put this list up on a website, consult with www.cures-not-wars.org to see what we've actually displayed. To get on the poster for 2005--update your contact details & add your city to this New List:[---snip---]
----end of forwarded email----
The detailed MMM 2005 city list at the end of the above
forwarded email has been deleted since it has some private
postal info, etc. in [brackets].Million Marijuana March. World Cannabis Day.
Cannabis Liberation Day. Global Marijuana March.
First Saturday in May or thereabouts. Important:
To get on the MMM posters for May 7, 2005, update
your contact details and add your city to the list. Your
postal info helps organizers send you posters by mail.
Basic 2005 city list with cities, states, nations,
email addresses, and links:
http://www.corporatism.netfirms.com/mmm2005.htm
2004 and 2005 posters, flyers, and banners are here:
http://gallery.marihemp.com/mmm2005flyers
http://gallery.marihemp.com/mmm2004flyers
MMM 2005 world map of cities:
http://www.corporatism.netfirms.com/mmm2005map.htm
MMM webform for adding or updating MMM cities worldwide:
http://corporatism.tripod.com/webform.htm
Dana Beal's MMM email compilations are
publicly archived here:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/mmmworld
To subscribe to that email list send a blank email to:
mmmworld-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Subscribers also receive the detailed city lists.
If you send MMM city info to Dana Beal, etc.,
and do not get a reply, and find that the info is not listed
in the city lists after a few days, then please resubmit the
email and city info as often as necessary to:
dana@..., cnw@...,
tents444@...
Please be sure to put "MMM" somewhere at the beginning of
the email subject-title so that it is not mistaken for spam
and deleted.
---------------
============================================================
M M M M M M M M M M M M Come to the
M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M INTERNATIONAL
M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M MILLION
M M M M M M M M M M M M M M M MARIJUANA
M M M M M M M M M M M M MARCH
M M M M M M M M M M M M
============================================================
Yahoo! Groups Links
- To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mayday/
Photo galleries. Cannabis events worldwide. Free MMM posters by mail.
http://gallery.marihemp.com/mmm
MMM (Million Marijuana March). First Saturday in May.
Hundreds of different cities worldwide since 1999.
2005 city list, links, world map:
http://www.corporatism.netfirms.com/mmm2005map.htm
Yahoo Group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cannabisaction
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
Offline 
Send Email