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There were no city lists at the end of this forwarded email. Maybe that is why it is labeled #18A. Maybe "18B" will have the latest city list. There are a lot of updates to be incorporated in the city list. Keep sending them in to Dana Beal!
----Forwarded email begins----
Dana Beal <dana@...> wrote:
Dana Beal <dana@...> wrote:
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:35:23 -0500
To: greenpartydrugsgroup@...
From: Dana Beal
Subject: MMM 2004 #18 A: Protest Marc Emery's Saskatchewan Bust!; The
Hague, New Paltz Make 140 Jay Day Cities!
CC: niall@..., tents444@..., yerbanena@...,
risto.mikkonen@..., indianbud@...,
initiativ@..., mojca@..., ezpz@...,
newagecitizen@..., hromi@..., tushona@...,
pariah_mob@..., jc0_66@..., irena.krzan@...,
legalizemichigan@..., Newagecitizen@..., hri100@...,
info@..., hempSA@..., has.cornelissen@...,
farid@..., inorml@..., mohemp@..., Boris.it@...,
chris@..., iowanorml@..., duncaneddy@...,
RoadsEnd@..., rastapeace@..., pdxnorml@...,
hempSA@..., smuuthc11@..., acididea@...,
anna_ganja@..., andyganja2001@...,
fiddlefoot420@..., torml@..., fearless_420@...,
melacs42x60@..., rebelart@..., pcornwell@...,
martin@..., CAMPNC@..., Blocpot@...,
DennyLane@..., hanfparade@..., mayday@onelist.com,
prohibitionx@..., freddiefreak@..., sokrates@...,
restore@..., rastapeace@..., j_thang@...,
Hempsters@..., texasm5@..., rscherer@...,
phillty2@..., steph@..., billdowning@...,
mmm@..., Usersvoice.jmt@..., forml_2000@...,
chris@..., pakaloha@..., werkhausen@...,
chairman@..., bloom@..., pdr@...,
aksh1@..., stinkygreens@..., Hanf-tv@...,
blair@..., jstatzer@..., encimer@...,
tnsmith44@..., CFFHS@..., globalpeas@...,
emanuel@..., dangssdp@..., fine_time909@...,
miriamwhite420@..., bud_jamesbud@..., mappnow@...,
xchaos@..., btm42@..., wachtel@...,
mgesuald@ilmanifesto, terryparkerjr@..., fjhc@hotmail,
rzr@..., legalise@..., spacehippie@...,
artworks@..., phillyweed420@..., info@...,
doncriss@..., joewein@..., normalpotluck2002@...,
info@..., OCannabisSociety@..., writch@...,
mmackenzie2@..., hilary@..., escandonavia@...,
jipiando@..., leoparda_azul@..., faenadub@...,
don@..., ultra_plus_estrella@..., helmcke@...,
m_bandida@..., malcomska@..., foroalici@...,
earthfirstswt@..., dmcvay@..., taudarknes@...,
hemptress@..., newpaltznorml@..., bitchcrafts420@...,
melacs42x60@..., baren1@..., gica@...,
TCW@..., amec@...
So far, 138 Cities are Signed up for 2004 .MAYDAY IS JAY-DAY!(This year, the first Saturday of May falls on May 1. We are recommending Sunday, May 2 or Monday May 3 in cities where there is significant conflict with other local events--or as a rain date. Of course, we understand that some schools have to do it on 4/20 because their school year is over by May, and that some northern cities have to do it a little later in May...)albany
albuquerqueamherstamsterdamashlandathensatlantaaucklandaustinbakersfieldbaselbergenberlinberneboonebratislavabremenbuenos airesbuffaloburlingtoncapetownchico
christchurch
cincinnaticlevelandcolognecolumbiadallasdarmstadtdarwindaytondes moines
detroit
doverdublindunedineau claireeugenefairbanksfayettevilleflintfrankfurtft. lauderdalegenevathe haguehalifaxhearsthelsinkihilohoustonhullkansas citykingstonkristiansandlansinglas vegaslausannelebanonleipzigleonlevinlexingtonlimalondnnlucernemarysvillemexico cityMilwaukeeminneapolismissoulamontpeliermontrealmoscownapiernashvillenewarknew orleansnew paltznewtonnew yorknimbinogdenomahaorlandoosakaoslopaducahparisparkersburgpeoriaperthphiladelphiaphoenixportlandportlandpotsdampragueraleigh-durhamrapid cityrenorichmondrio de janeroroanokeromerosariorostocksacramentosalt lake citysan diegosan franciscosan juansan marcossao paulosaporospokanespringfieldstavangerst. louissturgeon fallstallahasseetampatel avivthunder baytorontotokyotraverse citytrondheimtucsontupeloturkuupper lakevancouverventuraviennawashington, d.c.wellingtonwichitawilmingtonyuba cityzurich*****!!!Cannabis Liberation Day--Mayday Weekend 2004: Updates, Reports!!!*****FARId
00 33 6 148 156 79
farid@...
www.encod.org
Postal contact : CAM-RD c\o 9, passage Dagorno 75020 PARIS
From May 1st to May 8th 2004
ENCOD (European NGO Council on Drugs policy) springtime campaign to plant
the seeds of a legal regulation of drugs is calling for one week of
international events.
May 1st :
In France, as many french rallies will take place this day, french
"syombolik legalizer“s demonstrations" will take place (wherever you are)
by wearing "GREEN" and holding posters of the MMM. Special message to
particpants of the ?Teknival? -> Remember the Sarkoval kills the Free
party -> Narkoval 2004 ?
Paris : Symbolic happening on Opera marches - 3:00 PM
May 8th :
Paris : Surprises in Paris - Save the innocent plants !------From: has@...
High Dana & friends!
since i get a lot of response to your mailings from people who want to come to our MMM actions, i would like u to give them correct news
For MMM Legalize will do 4 actions but only one on 3th of may: The Hague binnenhof, Spread the seed!
So not Dam square, cause that one will be hit on the 5th of june with our anual big street rave
Agenda for Legalize! 2004:
26 march: get Ephedra back in stores action @ political congres in Rotterdam
3th of may: Spread the seed day, these are the last days of the year to get your seeds in he ground!
4th of june: Legalize! debate, Amsterdam mbta
5th of june: Legalize! street rave 13:00u Dam Square Amsterdam
check www.legalize.net
if things run out well we will be @ Hanfparade Berlin in august--> More To Be Announced
even after several changes i sent u, our adres is still wrong:
StichtingLegalize, Postbus 59723; 1040LE Amsterdam, The Netherlands. info@...; www.legalize.net please no phone number! people can get the correct number if they sent us an email. THC ministry is okay i guess: THC Ministry info@... +31614197223 http://www.thc-ministry.net/ http://www.thc-ministry.net/forum/ [postal: Oudeschans t/o 134, 1011 LE, Amsterdam, Netherlands] Million Marijuana March 2004 11:00 AM @ Dam This is in The Hague, @ Binnenhof!
so, skip this:
Amsterdam: +31(0)20-6107807 +31(0)6-16314682 Has Cornelissen, has@...; Stichting Legalize! http://www.legalize.net ; Legalize!, Binnenkant 46,1011 BP, Amsterdam, Nederland or
that was it, next to wishing u alle well and telling u too ceep tha vibe alive!
greetzz
Legalize!
http://www.millionmarijuanamarch.org/navigator.php-------From: ferry_smit@...new contact address for Legalize.nl :
Stichting Legalize!
postbus 59723
1040LE Amsterdam
info@...
www.legalize.net
Our Streetrave against the war on Drugs will be held in Amsterdam on june 5 (see attachment)
more than 25 trucks will be in the parade and afterparty
early may is almost impossible here due to the dutch weather and other festivities like liberation day queens day and memorial ww2 stuff, but......
on may 3 we will join you guys with a smaller protest in The Hague, we will have some speakers, music and will send up about 3000 baloons with ganja seeds attached under the motto:
"spread the seed"
..... if it grows everywhere, what can they do?
keep up the good work!
grtzferry smit-----From: newpaltznorml@...Please List New Paltz
Sunday May 2nd
SUNY At New Paltz
Global March for Cannabis Liberation
into Rock Against Racism
2pm - 11pm
www.newpaltz.edu/norml
www.nystatecan.org
newpaltznorml@...845 257.2687
--------From: tents444@...Anthony and Dana.
After looking at my copy of Dana's MMM 2004 city list here:
http://www.geocities.com/tents444/mmm2004.htm
and Anthony's email farther down; I come up with these new improved listings. All 3 cities are already on Dana's city list.
Tampa, Florida. Anthony Lorenzo. Hillsborough-can-owner@yahoogroups.com ~ 321-253-3673 is our state office number for Florida Cannabis Action Network. Meet in front of DEA office, 4950 W Kennedy Blvd, Tampa FL 33609.Orlando, Florida. Orange-can-owner@yahoogroups.com ~ 321-253-3673 is our state office number for Florida Cannabis Action Network.Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Broward-CAN-Owner@yahoogroups.com ~ 321-253-3673 is our state office number for Florida Cannabis Action Network. Chris Kenoyer 954-938-7231 Florida Chapter, AAMC America Alliance For Medical Cannabis. http://www.onlinepot.org The Complete Guide To Medical Marijuana. Fort Lauderdale/Broward county email: floridaaamc@... ~ More Secure Emails at
onlinepot2@... - Or Normal Emails onlinepot2@...Do the 3 listings above look OK, Anthony?
eco man
---------------
Anthony Lorenzo <revolution4kucinich@...> wrote:
From: "Anthony Lorenzo"
Subject: MMM contacts for Florida
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 15:46:20 -0500
Please list Tampa as a participator in the MMM. We will meet at the DEA's
office at: 4950 W KENNEDY BLVD TAMPA, FL 33609
We have been there since the begginning, and will be there in the end.
Please list Hillsborough-can-owner@yahoogroups.com as the contact, as this
will NEVER change as the email contact. This email goes to all our board
members in the Tampbay Community, so if you list it, it will always get a
response. THere is no phone number except: 321-253-3673 our state office
in Melbourne (Florida Cannabis Action Network) which will get you a response
always, eventually. Please update your records as it seems like your
listings for Florida for the last 4 years have been wrong, even when i have
called and updated them. This time i am giving you numbers/information that
will not change to avoid these hassles in the future. Orlando can be
reached at: Orange-can-owner@yahoogroups.com Fort Lauderdale:
Broward-CAN-Owner@yahoogroups.com and all should be directed to the same
phone number, though i am not promising activities in either of those areas.
Viva La Resistance,
anthony Lorenzo------------From: fiddlefoot420@...
May Day is Jay Day in 2004!
Date: Saturday May 1, 2004
Time: Gather at 3:30 p.m
March at 4:20
Place: In front of the Chamber of Commerce 202 East Grand View Parkway
Traverse City, MI
Northern Michigan freedom fighters will stand in solidarity with activists in over 200 cities around the world to call for an end to cannabis prohibition everywhere. If you support
*the right of patients to a safe and effective natural medicine;
*
the sensible stewardship of our environment through the substitution of hemp alternatives for such destructive products as fossil fuels, tree-made paper, and chemical-dependent cotton; and/or*
the abillity of responsible adults to choose to relax with a joint instead of a martini,
the Million Marijuana March is your opportunity to show it.
Participants will demonstrate along Grand View Parkway as we gather. Plenty of public parking is available nearby. The march will step off at 4:20, and will travel throughout the downtown area. The exact route has not been finalized at this point. Drums, signs, banners, costumes, and all manner of benevolent drama are welcome and encouraged. For the second year, the Holiday Inn will host our after-march rally in Shimmers Lounge. Join us there for music, speakers, and plenty of surprises. (Hey, we don't even know what all of them are yet!)
Come prepared to speak your peace. We want your wisdom, your perspective, your drug war horror stories and victories. You are needed and valued in this struggle to end the doomed and costly oppression of the cannabis plant and culture.
** A series of planning meetings will be held at 2 pm on alternating Saturdays beginning March 27. If you are interested in making this year's march Traverse City's best yet, please contact Melody at fiddlefoot420@..., or (231)885-2993 for location and details. If you are unable to attend the meetings but still want to help, we'll find something for you to do! **------From: tents444@...Dana,
I corrected the phone number and added the postal info in brackets.
Here is an updated Tupelo city listing. It was created by combining the old info, and some new info from this CannabisCulture forum message, and the message after it:http://www.cannabisculture.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=774032&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=3#Post818747
Tupelo, Mississippi. Anita T. Mayfield. [116 Burgess Dr., Nettleton, MS 38858]. 662-963-0775. nita420@... ~ May 1st at the Lee County Courthouse square between 2-6 pm with a march at 4:20 pm. Bring signs. Will have refreshments, varied guest speakers, merchandise and musicians. No illegal substances allowed.
--------------From: tents444@...Here is an updated Kansas City, Missouri listing. Made by combining forum info, and the old info from the city list here:
http://www.geocities.com/tents444/mmm2004.htm
Kansas City, Missouri. mohemp@... http://www.mohemp.org David 816-678-7447, 'its a beautiful day' 3918 Broadway, Kansas City MO. 64111... 816 931 6169. Elyse Max, 816-305-4564. MOHEMP, PO BOX 413681, Kansas City, MO 64141. May 8th to commence at high noon at JC Nichols fountain, Emmanuel Cleaver the II between Broadway and Main.
Is the above listing OK. I found the additional info at a Cannabis Culture forum message here:
http://www.cannabisculture.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=774032&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=6&vc=1
eco man---------From: gary@...I'm producing a cable tv talk show an we are looking for a pro-legalization voice in the SoCal area - if you know of anyone could you forward this email to them? Or email me back here.
Thanks!
Gary
Gary Rosen
Producer, The Debate Show
gary@...fax 323-957-3931--------From: tents444@...:Austin:
www.austinnorml.org should be
http://www.austinnorml.org
Bremen:
www.fuaga.com should be
http://www.fuaga.com
Eau Claire:
http://ssdp.uwec.edu/. should be
http://ssdp.uwec.edu/ -
Nimbin:
www.nimbinmardigrass.com, www.BigBongMobile.com, www.nimbinhempbar.com,www.nimbinaustralia.com/aclrm www.hempembassy.net, www.peacebus.com
Nimbin should be:
http://www.nimbinmardigrass.com , http://www.BigBongMobile.com ,
http://www.nimbinhempbar.com , http://www.nimbinaustralia.com/aclrm ,http://www.hempembassy.net , http://www.peacebus.com
Peoria:
www.ilmjp.com/mmm should be
http://www.ilmjp.com/mmm
Toronto:
www.cannabisclub.ca should behttp://www.cannabisclub.ca
Vienna:
WWW.Weedybeedies.TK should be
http://WWW.Weedybeedies.TK
From: globalmjmarch@...1) Please send files to this address instead of
dagreenmachine@....
2) Please make the files no bigger than half the size
of the last one.
3) Please add these cities to your list if they aren't
already on it:
Tupelo, Mississippi - Contact "nita" at 662-964-0775
[Anita T. Mayfield, 116 Burgess Dr., Nettleton, MS,
38858, USA, 662-963-0775]
San Diego, CA cannabiswoman2002@...
[5065 West Point Loma Bl., San Diego, CA, 92107, USA,
c/o Donna C. Lee]
Toronto, Ont. Canada - Frank 416-915-1881,
www.cannabisclub.ca [CALM, 132 Dundas St East,
Toronto, Ont, M5B 1E2, Canada]
Kansas City (may 8th) mohemp@... -
816-305-4564 [Mo Hemp , PO Box 413681, Kansas City,
MO, 64141, USA].
Traverse City, MI - fiddlefoot420@...
[Melody A. Karr, PO Box 524, Mesick, MI, 49668]
Burlington, VT, - Denny Lane 802-496-2387
or dennylane@... [PO Box 537 , Waitsfield, VT,
05673]
Newton, Kansas - davyblues@... [High Plains,
124 S. Walton Ave, Walton, Kansas, 67151]
....I'll send you more as they come.
4) Please send me a list of the cities you think need
a cash boost (and aprox. how much they need) and I
will pass it on to the banker....
Keep up the good work...
David Malmo-Levine*************************BUSHWHACKED!!****************************From: CallieMimosa@...PRESS RELEASE
March 23, 2004
CANADA'S 'PRINCE OF POT' MARC EMERY JAILED IN SASKATCHEWAN AFTER NDP RALLY
DENIED BAIL: SHOW CAUSE HEARING MARCH 24 AT 10AM, SASKATOON
TORONTO AND OTTAWA - Marc Emery, President of the British Columbia Marijuana
Party, was arrested and jailed on charges of allegedly trafficking marijuana by
passing a cannabis cigarette, or 'joint' late last night. Emery was also denied
bail at a hearing this morning. He is being held in Saskatoon pending a show
cause hearing tomorrow at 10am CST.
Emery, often referred to as the 'Prince of Pot', is currently in the middle of a
coast-to-coast tour of Canadian colleges and universities to encourage young
voters to become active in the political process and, more particularly,
encourage them to vote for the Federal New Democratic Party. Emery recently sat
down with New Democratic Party leader Jack Layton who in an interview with
internet-broadcaster pot-tv.net, advocated modernizing our marijuana laws and
"creating a legal environment in which people can enjoy their marijuana in peace
and quiet ... without having to worry about being criminalized." Since this
interview, Emery has been a staunch Layton backer and proud NDP supporter
wherever he goes. His current cross-country tour is inspired by the NDP's recent
policy declaration on modernizing Canada's marijuana laws and a recent Stats
Canada study which shows 75% of 18-24 year olds did not vote in the 2000
election.
"According to bystanders, a group of people were peacefully assembled for an
hour before Marc Emery showed up," said Tim Meehan, of Toronto-based OntarioConsumers for Safe Access to Recreational Cannabis. "Many questions remain
about the circumstances of Emery's arrest. Among them, was he targeted because
of the political nature of his speaking tour? Emery has not faced any legal
troubles at other speaking stops during his current tour." Emery was the
primary target of police action when they arrived on the scene. Along with
Emery, local supporter Justin McGowan was also searched, detained, and charged
with cannabis possession.
Also at issue is the charge of 'trafficking marijuana'. Under current law,
simply passing or sharing a marijuana cigarette with a friend or loved one isdefined as 'drug trafficking'. This is a serious flaw in the current legal
system, one which has been raised repeatedly by the New Democratic Party in its
opposition to the current decriminalization legislation. Emery finds himself
ironically the victim of the laws which he is currently fighting to change, in
so far as his behaviour in sharing a marijuana cigarette with other individualshas been characterized as 'trafficking' and this characterization has been used
to detain Emery in jail and deprive him of his normal rights and freedoms for
over thirty-six hours. Canadians should be reminded that even if Bill C-10, the
so-called marijuana decriminalization bill, is passed, police would still retain
the criminal power to arrest people and brand them drug dealers -- for simply
sharing a joint. "Currently, even simply giving marijuana for no money ("passing
a joint") is considered trafficking. Bill [C-10] should be amended so that
non-commercial transfers of up to 30 grams of marijuana not be considered
trafficking," according to a New Democratic Party statement.
(http://tinyurl.com/3527d)
"[Emery] doesn't want people to come away from this thinking 'poor Marc'. This
is about Canadians and our marijuana laws. The misapplication of these laws and
the discretionary pretext they provide to police, as evidenced through [Emery's]
situation, should be cause for concern to all Canadians. This whole tour has
been about raising awareness of the harmful and failed nature of our
prohibition-era laws and getting young people involved in the political
process," said Jody Pressman, coordinator of Emery's tour across the country inpromotion of the NDP.
Emery was scheduled to speak at the University of Alberta in Edmonton on March
24, but due to his arrest, noted medical marijuana crusader Grant Krieger will
speak in his place. Emery and his team stand committed to promoting the NDP and
their policy of removing marijuana from the criminal justice system.--------
From: revtombrown@...Subject: Federal Email ChargeDate: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 06:57:00 EST
Subject: Federal Bill 602P-Mail Charge
Guess the warnings were true. ! Federal Bill 602P charges 5-cents per E-mail sent. It figures! No more free E-mail! We knew this was coming!! Bill 602P will permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent charge on every delivered E-mail.
Please read the following carefully if you intend to stay online and continue using E-mail. The last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the Government of the United States attempting to quietly push through legislation that will affect our use of the Internet.
Under proposed legislation, the US Postal Service will be attempting to bill E-mail users out of "alternative postage fees."
Bill 602P will permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent surcharge on every e-mail delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by the ISP. Washington, DC lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to prevent this legislation from becoming law.
The US Postal Service is claiming lost revenue, due to the proliferation of E-mail, is costing nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per year. You may have noticed their recent ad campaign: "There is nothing like a letter."
Since the average person received about 10 pieces of E-mail per day in 1998, the cost of the typical individual would be an additional 50 cents a day -- or over $180 per year -- above and beyond their regular Internet costs.
Note that this would be money paid directly to the US Postal Service for a service they do not even provide.
The whole point of the Internet is democracy and noninterference. You are already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because of bureaucratic inefficiency. It currently takes up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered from coast to coast. If the US Postal Service is allowed to tinker with E-mail, it will mark the end of the "free" Internet in the United States.
Congressional representative, Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested a "$20-$40 per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond the governments proposed E-mail charges. Note that most of the major newspapers have ignored the story the only exception being the Washingtonian which called the idea of E-mail surcharge "a useful concept who's time has come". Do not sit by and watch your freedom erode away!
Send this E-mail to EVERYONE on your list, and tell all your friends and relatives to write their congressional representative and say "NO" to Bill 602P.
It will only take a few moments of your time and could very well be instrumental in killing a bill we do not want.
PLEASE FORWARD!
"Government is not reason. Government is not eloquence. It is force, and like fire it is a dangerous servant and a fearful Master" --George Washington
"No man in this country is so high that he is above the law. No officer of the law may set that law at defiance with impunity. All the officers of the government, from the highest to the lowest, are creatures of the law, and are bound to obey it."
"Courts of justice are established, not only to decide upon the controverted rights of the citizens as against each other, but also upon rights in controversy between them and the government."
"Under our system the people . . . are the sovereign."
Justice Samuel F. Miller
Supreme Court of the United StatesUnited States v. Lee 1882-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Join the Kerry Drug War Thread: http://forum.johnkerry.com/index.php?showtopic=11770&hl=illicit+drugs+terrorism
sandyPosted: Mar 20 2004, 07:29 PM
Dana says it's legal all over the world. Addicts are lining up. If that's the case and it's curing people in every country except the U.S., then there would be studies to back that up. I mean there are medical journals and government funded research programs in other countries too.
And the really ridiculous thing is that I'm not even arguing whether it's effective. I'm just asking questions. How effective. With who. How long does it work. Relapse prevention. Normal questions anybody would ask.
The only thing I'm arguing, based on what I've read so far, is that Ibogaine treatment cures and therefore would end the drug war. Or that having doctors supply addicts would end the drug war. Drug use isn't that simple. And addiction is more complicated than that.
climbingthegreatbluecliffsPosted: Mar 21 2004, 11:26 AM
i notice this thread seems to have taken an ibogaine oriented detour...
Its been mentioned the stoners seemed to have jumped ship on the rest of us (they like shrooms too much to be gone for long). So lets discuss substances like: amphetamines, cocaine, prescription drugs and heroin(and other refined opiates). Why should they be legal or illegal, what possible effects would such a policy have? Does anyone have any thoughts on what will happen with the perscription drug crisis?
Or maybe we could discuss psychedelics, ibogaine included. Do these substances pose significant danger to youth, or the populous in general? besides turning everyone into sinister tree hugging communists What kind of tax money, or economic benifit could be derrived from brining them into the norm? Is there more freedom needed for research into still fairly mysterious compounds?
What about incarceration as drug policy, its been mentioned so many times but it would be good to get a review on the benifits of a more well though out and civilized policy (i remember a show about a nomadic jungle man in south america, he stated that the people in his nation were not civilized. they destroy his home(a valueable rainforest, also known as 'CO2 processing center')).
danaPosted: Mar 21 2004, 01:04 PM
QUOTE
Dana says it's legal all over the world. Addicts are lining up. If that's the case and it's curing people in every country except the U.S., then there would be studies to back that up. I mean there are medical journals and government funded research programs in other countries too.
Unfortunately for your premise, because Ibogaine was discovered here, where is illegal, and spread from outward from the U.S. as researchers went first to more tolerant locales like Holland or St. Kitts where human research was not prohibited, the only good studies are from the good old USA. The first British studies are years away, because the addiction docs there are REALLY into heroin maintenance, and under attack themselves at the moment, with Colin Brewer (big proponet of Ultra-Rapid Opiate Detox, our chief competitor, but still skeptical of Ibo) up on charges. Did you actually read the two studies I referred you to?
Are you familiar with UROD, and the fatalities associated with the application of Trexan to people under anethesia? UROD"s widespread use is a testiment to the pent-up demand for some kind of interruptor. Comparison with UROD is the only fair yardstick wherewith to evaluate Ibogaine.
QUOTE
And the really ridiculous thing is that I'm not even arguing whether it's effective. I'm just asking questions. How effective. With who. How long does it work. Relapse prevention. Normal questions anybody would ask.
Preliminary studies have focused on acute interruption of heroin. Longitudinal studies either still have to be done, or in the case of Mash, who has many other irons on the fire, published. My point about protests is that ACT UP forced those studies to be done as far as AIDS drugs are concerned. Isn't addiction important enough to fast-track research into something so promising?
QUOTE
The only thing I'm arguing, based on what I've read so far, is that Ibogaine treatment cures and therefore would end the drug war. Or that having doctors supply addicts would end the drug war. Drug use isn't that simple. And addiction is more complicated than that.
Not what we said. Effective medical approaches will tip the balance and make it possible to medicalize the problem, and de-institutionalize addicts the way anti-psychotic drugs made it possible to empty the nut-houses in the '60's.
You're not proposing to do away with methadone, even though we've seen that some people don't tolerate it well, and that it doesn't really block people from doing benzos and stimulants when they want to get high. Ibogaine simply makes the medical approach a lot more palatable, both to addicts and the general public which has grave doubts about maintenance drugs.
May I ask, aside having gone thru recovery yourself, what scientific or other qualifications you have to evaluate animal or human studies to begin with? Do you ordinarily read scientific papers? Have you attended NIDA conferences? Have you ever met with the FDA? Are you a treatment professional?
QUOTE
i notice this thread seems to have taken an ibogaine oriented detour... So lets discuss substances like: amphetamines, cocaine, prescription drugs and heroin (and other refined opiates). Why should they be legal or illegal, what possible effects would such a policy have?
If there's no receptivity to research into a psychedelic with no abuse potential that interrupts speed, coke, opiate, alcohol and nicotine dependency, what makes you think an agenda of maintenance drugs, with all the head-aches of diversion and drug side-effects, is any more mainstream? Why would heroin vs. methadone trials have a better chance of passing muster with NIDA and the ONDCP?
QUOTE
Or maybe we could discuss psychedelics, ibogaine included. Is there more freedom needed for research into still fairly mysterious compounds?Obviously. But more freedom to research will only come about as the result of political pressure being brought to bear. That's what the dispute here is about.climbingthegreatbluecliffsPosted: Mar 21 2004, 02:48 PMi was reading through the vaults of erowid and i came across a report which detailed an addict's use of methadone as a heroin substitute. Ill drop some quotes before getting to the point.
Title: "just like skin popping heroin"
"I had heard the rumors about [methadone]..how you feel nothing..how it just keeps you well..how you still crave heroin..blah blah blah. Well, let me tell you. I think this is a lie perpetuated by those that are on methadone (as well as those in the drug rehab system) so, on one hand, the government doesn't find out that methadone is fun and then take it away, and #2, so that people continue to waste money going through bull"explicative deleted" 'clonidine 'n' valium' detoxes or '24 hour naltrexone shootup comas and then be violently sick when you wakeup quick detoxes' or, the new trend 'buprenorphine under the tongue which does little to help detoxes'. Or, my favorite, 'NA Christian Science Bull"explicative deleted"'. The earlier poster is RIGHT. You will not get a rush from methadone. But he is wrong about one thing...SOME methadone users still feel the effects every day of their medicine. For me i wake up kind of dopesick, not terrible, but I definitely couldn't do anything if I wasn't getting my dose. "
"So yes, methadone is like heroin lite. I still miss heroin because the only problem with methadone is that it acts as a blocker so that shooting heroin now feels like nothing. But it is far from the truth (at least for this methadonian) to say that methadone 'feels like nothing' for the addict. If it truly felt like nothing, I would have gone back on heroin in one day, skin popping my shots instead of intravenously using. The reason I don't is because being on methadone is EXACTLY LIKE skin popping heroin (no rush, but a lot of pleasantness) without fear of arrest or the tremendous cost (my heroin habit was about two hundred dollars a day, my methadone habit is three hundred A MONTH.)"The interesting thing is this woman was (supposedly if you are paranoid/delusional to one degree or another) an ivy league graduate. She had a productive job, and maintained it throughout a long addiction. She was fully aware of why she used, and this (both the knowledge and the object of the knowledge) prevented her from being able to drop heroin even though she had been through detox 12 times. So she turns to methadone. She turned to detox finally because she had ran out of veins.Now ibogaine; ibogaine could have potentially helped this woman had she opened her mind (you can only control the present mind from her position) to the mystery... 'Dont knock it 'till you try it'.
climbingthegreatbluecliffsPosted: Mar 21 2004, 02:48 PM
i was reading through the vaults of erowid and i came across a report which detailed an addict's use of methadone as a heroin substitute. Ill drop some quotes before getting to the point.
Title: "just like skin popping heroin""I had heard the rumors about [methadone]..how you feel nothing..how it just keeps you well..how you still crave heroin..blah blah blah. Well, let me tell you. I think this is a lie perpetuated by those that are on methadone (as well as those in the drug rehab system) so, on one hand, the government doesn't find out that methadone is fun and then take it away, and #2, so that people continue to waste money going through bull"explicative deleted" 'clonidine 'n' valium' detoxes or '24 hour naltrexone shootup comas and then be violently sick when you wakeup quick detoxes' or, the new trend 'buprenorphine under the tongue which does little to help detoxes'. Or, my favorite, 'NA Christian Science Bull"explicative deleted"'. The earlier poster is RIGHT. You will not get a rush from methadone. But he is wrong about one thing...SOME methadone users still feel the effects every day of their medicine. For me i wake up kind of dopesick, not terrible, but I definitely couldn't do anything if I wasn't getting my dose. "
"So yes, methadone is like heroin lite. I still miss heroin because the only problem with methadone is that it acts as a blocker so that shooting heroin now feels like nothing. But it is far from the truth (at least for this methadonian) to say that methadone 'feels like nothing' for the addict. If it truly felt like nothing, I would have gone back on heroin in one day, skin popping my shots instead of intravenously using. The reason I don't is because being on methadone is EXACTLY LIKE skin popping heroin (no rush, but a lot of pleasantness) without fear of arrest or the tremendous cost (my heroin habit was about two hundred dollars a day, my methadone habit is three hundred A MONTH.)"
The interesting thing is this woman was (supposedly if you are paranoid/delusional to one degree or another) an ivy league graduate. She had a productive job, and maintained it throughout a long addiction. She was fully aware of why she used, and this (both the knowledge and the object of the knowledg) prevented her from being able to drop heroin even though she had been through detox 12 times. So she turns to methadone. She turned to detox finally because she had ran out of veins.
Now ibogaine; ibogaine could have potentially helped this woman had she opened her mind (you can only control the present mind from her position) to the mystery... 'Dont knock it 'till you try it'.
This post has been edited by climbingthegreatbluecliffs on Mar 21 2004, 02:50 PM
climbingthegreatbluecliffsPosted: Mar 22 2004, 02:04 AM
Ive looked a bit up on treatment alternatives mentioned on my previous post (god this would seem sad had i been made to watch more saved by the bell-ish shows than i already had to).
Clonidine is basically a 'relaxant' or 'disassociative'. Same as valium, i assume this treatment basically entails taking replacements until physical addiction withdraws cease. However there is no drive to stop using, which ibogaine can provide.
buprenorphine is basically another methadone, but 'better' (or worse i suppose, depending on which attributes you care about. However this is not a discussion for today since such a change has no direct (needed) relation to the current topic).
Cold turkey, with whatever mental will power, combined with something like ibogaine, or even naltrexone on some levels(hold on for this one) could be more easily done, since resolve is already there. But ibogaine could be the extra umph people need to get one up on 'themselves'.
Naltrexone... wow... interesting... just look into it, but keep your glasses clean. This stuff HAS to be more dangerous/insane than ol' dupont 'll tells us... that is unless we figur' it out ourselves.
My conclusion, ibogaine NEEDS a place in treatment, not just for heroin but for any addiction. Twelve steps and the like might become a dose of ibogaine in a proper setting (its hard to say, but i think its possible).
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climbingthegreatbluecliffsPosted: Mar 21 2004, 02:48 PM
i was reading through the vaults of erowid and i came across a report which detailed an addict's use of methadone as a heroin substitute. Ill drop some quotes before getting to the point.
Title: "just like skin popping heroin"
"I had heard the rumors about [methadone]..how you feel nothing..how it just keeps you well..how you still crave heroin..blah blah blah. Well, let me tell you. I think this is a lie perpetuated by those that are on methadone (as well as those in the drug rehab system) so, on one hand, the government doesn't find out that methadone is fun and then take it away, and #2, so that people continue to waste money going through bull"explicative deleted" 'clonidine 'n' valium' detoxes or '24 hour naltrexone shootup comas and then be violently sick when you wakeup quick detoxes' or, the new trend 'buprenorphine under the tongue which does little to help detoxes'. Or, my favorite, 'NA Christian Science Bull"explicative deleted"'. The earlier poster is RIGHT. You will not get a rush from methadone. But he is wrong about one thing...SOME methadone users still feel the effects every day of their medicine. For me i wake up kind of dopesick, not terrible, but I definitely couldn't do anything if I wasn't getting my dose. "
"So yes, methadone is like heroin lite. I still miss heroin because the only problem with methadone is that it acts as a blocker so that shooting heroin now feels like nothing. But it is far from the truth (at least for this methadonian) to say that methadone 'feels like nothing' for the addict. If it truly felt like nothing, I would have gone back on heroin in one day, skin popping my shots instead of intravenously using. The reason I don't is because being on methadone is EXACTLY LIKE skin popping heroin (no rush, but a lot of pleasantness) without fear of arrest or the tremendous cost (my heroin habit was about two hundred dollars a day, my methadone habit is three hundred A MONTH.)"
The interesting thing is this woman was (supposedly if you are paranoid/delusional to one degree or another) an ivy league graduate. She had a productive job, and maintained it throughout a long addiction. She was fully aware of why she used, and this (both the knowledge and the object of the knowledg) prevented her from being able to drop heroin even though she had been through detox 12 times. So she turns to methadone. She turned to detox finally because she had ran out of veins.
Now ibogaine; ibogaine could have potentially helped this woman had she opened her mind (you can only control the present mind from her position) to the mystery... 'Dont knock it 'till you try it'.This post has been edited by climbingthegreatbluecliffs on Mar 21 2004, 02:50 PMclimbingthegreatbluecliffsPosted: Mar 22 2004, 02:04 AM
Ive looked a bit up on treatment alternatives mentioned on my previous post (god this would seem sad had i been made to watch more saved by the bell-ish shows than i already had to).
Clonidine is basically a 'relaxant' or 'disassociative'. Same as valium, i assume this treatment basically entails taking replacements until physical addiction withdraws cease. However there is no drive to stop using, which ibogaine can provide.
buprenorphine is basically another methadone, but 'better' (or worse i suppose, depending on which attributes you care about. However this is not a discussion for today since such a change has no direct (needed) relation to the current topic).
Cold turkey, with whatever mental will power, combined with something like ibogaine, or even naltrexone on some levels(hold on for this one) could be more easily done, since resolve is already there. But ibogaine could be the extra umph people need to get one up on 'themselves'.
Naltrexone... wow... interesting... just look into it, but keep your glasses clean. This stuff HAS to be more dangerous/insane than ol' dupont 'll tells us... that is unless we figur' it out ourselves.My conclusion, ibogaine NEEDS a place in treatment, not just for heroin but for any addiction. Twelve steps and the like might become a dose of ibogaine in a proper setting (its hard to say, but i think its possible).danaPosted: Mar 22 2004, 01:42 PM
QUOTE
Naltrexone... wow... interesting... just look into it, but keep your glasses clean. This stuff HAS to be more dangerous/insane than ol' dupont 'll tells us... that is unless we figur' it out ourselves.It's the acute application for rapid detox that's really dangerous, either with or without anesthesia. It can wreck havoc with the circulatory system. One patient from Dr. Lance Gooberman's New Jersey clinic died in this mother's arms, his hands swollen to the size of hams. Gooberman lost his licence after he had 4 deaths in 2350 treatments--ironically even as he was carrying out detoxes mandated by various Jersey courts. Check out the New York times archive under Lance Gooberman.
As for chronic low dose administration, which is intended to block people fom getting high so they don't use, more than half of addicts quit because it makes them feel like they want to crawl out of their skin, or just generally uncomfortable. People have hacked the implant out of their arms. and like I said, continued use makes you go bald and impotent.
QUOTE
My conclusion, ibogaine NEEDS a place in treatment, not just for heroin but for any addiction. Twelve steps and the like might become a dose of ibogaine in a proper setting (its hard to say, but i think its possible).
So you agree it is a special example--a priority like medical marijuana--compared to the other illegal drugs. X is a distant third, in my view.
So what do we do next?
Dana/cnw
climbingthegreatbluecliffsPosted: Mar 22 2004, 02:51 PM
I think more psychological research needs to be done into MDMA(its only getting 'fad' press, its nothing compared to other psychoactives), LSD and every other illegal (and otherwise) psychoactive. From my understanding its a pain in the ass to get approval for any such research atm.
Ibogaine should be (is) far more important than MJ for medical purposes. Most of the medical MJ pushers are casual smokers or moral(of a sort) activists. The majority (casual smokers) just think if they can dent the damn the flood gates will open, and the sea will part. They do have logic for this, as if MJ can both be medicinal and not dangerous than why should it be illegal, or restricted for consumption...
Naltrexone, even at low does seems to make the addict an insane disheveled wretch... how compassionate, esp since we are (should be) trying to help these people. Id laugh my ass off at a drug commercial for this stuff... 'potential side effects include: death, impotence and loss of hair' how can there be a market here.
as for what's next... hoping we dont get thrown in the slammer... or worse... that or buying a high powered rifle and moving to south dakota. Getting bush out of office would be a more optimistic first step though.
TimeForChangePosted: Mar 22 2004, 05:27 PM
QUOTE (climbingthegreatbluecliffs @ Mar 22 2004, 02:51 PM)
Ibogaine should be (is) far more important than MJ for medical purposes. Most of the medical MJ pushers are casual smokers or moral(of a sort) activists. The majority (casual smokers) just think if they can dent the damn the flood gates will open, and the sea will part. They do have logic for this, as if MJ can both be medicinal and not dangerous than why should it be illegal, or restricted for consumption...
Ibogaine is important yes (probably). Ibogaine is under studied sure, most "illegal" substances are.
But why must one thing be canibalized to make way for another? A medicinal plant - Cannabis - USED for medicine for at least the last 8,200 years at every place on the globe where it has been cultivated is now LESS important than Iboga? How is that? Because you said so?
Ibogaine looks promising but it doesn't appear, at this point, to have even a fraction of the number of bonafide medical applications as Cannabis. If Ibogaine's novel effects in the treatment of "addiction" were confirmed and found to be unique, would Ibogaine then replace Cannabis for all the symptoms Cannabis treats?
Someone earlier disparaged Cannabis advocates in one of these threads and then as now the comment lacked any stated factual basis - it was simply a poorly informed opinion.
Your remarks about medical MJ pushers sounds very familiar - you didn't rip a page out of the Drug Czar's play book did you?
climbingthegreatbluecliffsPosted: Mar 22 2004, 07:05 PM
QUOTE (TimeForChange @ Mar 22 2004, 05:27 PM)
QUOTE (climbingthegreatbluecliffs @ Mar 22 2004, 02:51 PM)
Ibogaine should be (is) far more important than MJ for medical purposes. Most of the medical MJ pushers are casual smokers or moral(of a sort) activists. The majority (casual smokers) just think if they can dent the damn the flood gates will open, and the sea will part. They do have logic for this, as if MJ can both be medicinal and not dangerous than why should it be illegal, or restricted for consumption...
Ibogaine is important yes (probably). Ibogaine is under studied sure, most "illegal" substances are.
I never said it had no medicinal value. However you are as half informed and squed as those 'way back when' who sold opium and cocaine as 'cure alls'.
QUOTE
But why must one thing be canibalized to make way for another? A medicinal plant - Cannabis - USED for medicine for at least the last 8,200 years at every place on the globe where it has been cultivated is now LESS important than Iboga? How is that? Because you said so?
Ibogaine looks promising but it doesn't appear, at this point, to have even a fraction of the number of bonafide medical applications as Cannabis. If Ibogaine's novel effects in the treatment of "addiction" were confirmed and found to be unique, would Ibogaine then replace Cannabis for all the symptoms Cannabis treats?
Well maybe because dana has posted ibogaine (and related indole alkaloids) used as cancer treatment(inhibiting tumor growth if i remember correctly). I posted a few pages back on the alkaloids in vocanga africana, one currently has widespread medical use in europe, others might have potential but remain in the dark. Ibogaine can also produce profounds visions, details everything from 'the inner mind to the outer limits' (sorry it was a joke waiting to happen). Plus the addiction treatment NEED. Ive read plenty on how medical cannabis has applications(its a wonderful plant), but its been so much more studied than other compounds (esp psychedellics), even in the current system. But you can hardly back up what you are claiming in its entirety (except by emotional manipulation).
QUOTE
Someone earlier disparaged Cannabis advocates in one of these threads and then as now the comment lacked any stated factual basis - it was simply a poorly informed opinion.
Your remarks about medical MJ pushers sounds very familiar - you didn't rip a page out of the Drug Czar's play book did you?
so now you are going to start attacking me(like i care anyway). really just because you can spout it does not mean its true (i know "the same goes for me") but basically if you want to act like this: wise up or piss off. But you know whats funny, im a cannabis advocate, its just i refrain from pot long enough to see more than a few feet in front of me(sorry, im usually not a fan of enmity, save as a tool for teaching its destruction).
SeriousyearPosted: Mar 23 2004, 07:59 AM
Recently, the FDA made a connection with using anti-depressants and suicides.
I heard some years ago that psychedelics were being studied to actually cure people with depression. I discovered - after being barraged with an assault of anti-depression medications, that marijuana made me feel better- mentally and emotionally, whereas, the name brand pharmaceuticals did little or nothing. It was a very expensive monthly bill for little relief from something that literally millions of people suffer from.
Depression is far more rampant than most people think. Too bad marijuana is illegal, it definitely helped me.danaPosted: Mar 23 2004, 10:28 AM
My point was that Ibogaine is the only illegal drug that comes close to medical marijuana in terms of the range of it's potential applications--but that it's a lot less known, and when people do know about it, they think it's just good for treating addictions. MDMA, LSD--these have a few potential uses in psycholytic therapy, but their status as widely used recreational/spiritual substances militates against their approval by FDA/NIDA.
Pot has the fact that it's so safe going for it; Ibogaine, that it has a fantastically low (or no) abuse potential.
Dana/cnw
phatboyPosted: Mar 23 2004, 11:21 AM
The drug war is a farce. The most damaging domestic policy in the history of our country. Those who continue to support it IMO have blood on their hands. They cannot even think of a way to exit this war and explain to the American public why they have continued it so long.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
NO MORE CORRUPTION!!
******************************************************************
Mon, 22 Mar 2004
Source: New York Times (NY)
TELLTALE WORDS ON A 1996 TAPE ARE RECALLED IN A POLICE INQUIRY
Except for one extraordinary twist, the raid on Apartment 10B in March 1996 would have vanished long ago into the dense annals of New York crime-fighting. A team of police officers and federal agents, hunting for evidence against a drug gang, broke into the apartment, on upper Madison Avenue. They pulled open drawers, looked in closets and upended cushions. They left behind their search warrant, on which they noted that they had not found the very first item they had come looking for: "monies."
Yet a fluke event - "once in a hundred years," as a lawyer later said - provided a candid glimpse of the search and raised troublesome questions.
During the commotion, someone turned on a telephone answering machine's recorder, apparently without realizing it. For the next 30 minutes, the machine captured the clamor and chatter of the search: an exclamation, "My God, that's a lot of money;" a wisecrack about the Constitution; a crude racial remark about the apartment's residents, who were not home.
Seven minutes into the tape, a man can be heard quietly counting. "Six hundred," he says. "Eight hundred. Nine hundred." Twenty-nine seconds later, the sound of a zipper is heard.
Annette Brown, who lived in the apartment and played a minor role in her son's drug business, later told authorities that $900 in cash had disappeared from a zippered portfolio. The police and federal agents all denied seeing money. At least three official investigations of Ms. Brown's claim and tape led to no charges.
Now, eight years later, as the New York Police Department faces allegations of corruption on a much grander scale, Carlos Rodriguez, the detective who was in charge of tallying evidence from the Brown apartment, has again come under scrutiny, for an entirely separate episode. This time, a retired detective claims to have shared money taken from a drug dealer with Detective Rodriguez, according to a person who has been briefed on the inquiry.
phatboyPosted: Mar 23 2004, 11:21 AM
The drug war is a farce. The most damaging domestic policy in the history of our country. Those who continue to support it IMO have blood on their hands. They cannot even think of a way to exit this war and explain to the American public why they have continued it so long.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
NO MORE CORRUPTION!!
******************************************************************
Mon, 22 Mar 2004
Source: New York Times (NY)
TELLTALE WORDS ON A 1996 TAPE ARE RECALLED IN A POLICE INQUIRY
Except for one extraordinary twist, the raid on Apartment 10B in March 1996 would have vanished long ago into the dense annals of New York crime-fighting. A team of police officers and federal agents, hunting for evidence against a drug gang, broke into the apartment, on upper Madison Avenue. They pulled open drawers, looked in closets and upended cushions. They left behind their search warrant, on which they noted that they had not found the very first item they had come looking for: "monies."
Yet a fluke event - "once in a hundred years," as a lawyer later said - provided a candid glimpse of the search and raised troublesome questions.
During the commotion, someone turned on a telephone answering machine's recorder, apparently without realizing it. For the next 30 minutes, the machine captured the clamor and chatter of the search: an exclamation, "My God, that's a lot of money;" a wisecrack about the Constitution; a crude racial remark about the apartment's residents, who were not home.
Seven minutes into the tape, a man can be heard quietly counting. "Six hundred," he says. "Eight hundred. Nine hundred." Twenty-nine seconds later, the sound of a zipper is heard.
Annette Brown, who lived in the apartment and played a minor role in her son's drug business, later told authorities that $900 in cash had disappeared from a zippered portfolio. The police and federal agents all denied seeing money. At least three official investigations of Ms. Brown's claim and tape led to no charges.
Now, eight years later, as the New York Police Department faces allegations of corruption on a much grander scale, Carlos Rodriguez, the detective who was in charge of tallying evidence from the Brown apartment, has again come under scrutiny, for an entirely separate episode. This time, a retired detective claims to have shared money taken from a drug dealer with Detective Rodriguez, according to a person who has been briefed on the inquiry.
danaPosted: Mar 23 2004, 12:11 PMKind of raises the interesting question: Which will have the priority under a President who's an ex-prosecutor--corrupt cops and guilty Republicans, or people who smoke, grow and share marijuana? It would be nice to see a statement about going after the people who stole the election in 2,000 on the Kerry website comparable to the pledge to crack down on people who import and deal drugs.Dana/cnw****!!!IBOGAINE TREATMENT NOW $1500 IN HOLLAND--CALL SARA, 0113134-624-1770 !!!****From: HSLotsof@...
In a message dated 3/19/04 9:44:50 PM, WGladstone writes:
>>Did you ever see the original King Kong (1933)?
>>If you did, you will remember the poignant final scene, with King Kong
>>atop the Empire State Building, fighting off the Air Corps (that was in
>>the days before the Air Force, obviously). He catches one plane, rips it
>>up, and it's gone. The other planes, with their machine guns, wound him
>>fatally and he falls all the way down to 34th Street and 5th Avenue. Now,
>>few people know this, but "Kong", as he was known to his friends, had drug
>>habit, a powerful addiction that he called "the beast". He wanted desperately
>>to get the monkey off his back, so to speak.
>>In any event, he hits the ground very hard and creates a giant pothole
>>that still hasn't been fixed properly.
>>The character played by Robert Armstrong (you know, the one who captured
>>King Kong and makes him into a star at Radio City Music Hall, training
>>him on the side to become a rockette), well anyway, this character makes
>>his through the crowd and stands by the great, motionless body. The police>>sergeant says: "Well, the airplanes got him".
>>And he answers what sounds like: "Oh, no. It was beauty killed the beast".
>>Now, what he actually said was: "It was Bwiti killed the beast", meaning
>>that Kong had been cured of his addiction, not to Fay Wray (who was really
>>a low-level, well, in a sense, high-level, dealer, supplying the great
>>ape with lots of stuff), but to the beast.
>>
>>Voilą. C`est fini.
>>
>>Best regards,
>>William Gladstone
>>French/English medical and pharmaceutical translator and lexicographer.------------------------From: brooke@...Hello all,
Just to summarize, my name is Brooke Burgess, and I've posted several times
in order to glean some of the intricacies of the process before I undertake
my first journey. I have 50g of rootbark from a reputable source, and will
be taking off 5 days from work within the next two weeks to fully immerse
myself in the experience.
Here's my current checklist - please feel free to make suggestions,
corrections, criticisms, and such - or contact me directly at
brooke@....
- with 190lbs of bodyweight, and being a first-time 'non-addict'
experiencer (don't nicotine and emotional trenches count for something?
), I will be using 15-20g of rootbark.
- I was referred to an online recipe to extract the vital components, which
requires 700ml of vodka, a glass of red wine, and the juice of a lemon to
allow the plant material to ferment over one week in a closed container.
After this, I will boil off the alcohol and test the remnants for bitterness
- I will prepare a quiet space with images and items that trigger emotional
memories and ties to serious blocks and blisses from my life.
- I'll have a strong and considerate 'watcher' with basic medical training
and a spiritual understanding to veer me back onto 'the path' in case things
go awry. Oh...and don't forget the handy bucket by the bed for sudden
movements.
- I've set aside the pre-requisite three days for a slow and thoughtful
return to full mobility and reintegration with the 'real' world.
- I will detox the days leading up to dosing, and not eat for 8 hours
before use. As well, I will take a small sample and wait several hours to
gauge its effects.
- I will write down everything I experience afterwards in order to share it
with myself (at a more coherent time), and those who have supported
me...including the members of this board!
That's basically it. Am I missing anything crucial? Thoughts?
Thanks in advance
Brooke Burgess
www.brokensaints.com----------From: HSLotsof@...If the dose of iboga is significant I doubt you will be able to write. I
suggest your companion/guide have a tape recorder. I doubt you will want to say
anything after a while so you might come to an agreement in advance that
during the peak period of visualization, if such occurs, that you are asked to
state what you are seeing every five minutes or so. Don't think about it, just
state what you are seeing. Otherwise, the images will move so fast you will be
in the next image rather than indicating what you saw in the immediate image.
Once the peak passes you will be more able to speak without prompting but, a
voice actuated recorder may make it easier for everyone. Test the recorder to
make sure it is functioning as per expectations. Ibogaine and dreaming are
very similar and you tend to forget a lot of what you experience so the
recording should prove quite interesting to you. As Planteur said, and I agree
completely, have no expectations though I think there are others with significant
experience who believe in a very directed experience. And, that is OK too.
Howard-----From: adamg@...Brooke,
1.) ...kiss your noggin good-bye..?
2.) I'd be preparing at least 40 grms and taking at least 15gms on the
outset with
the rest on the rebounds, ie, after the first wave of vomiting and then
again after the second
and so on... Of course, this is all in equivalency, since you're preparing
an extract...
You might be under the impression that one is to take the ibo all at onceand be done with it.
I don't recommend that approach, I'd say go easy but psyche yourself up to
drinking the
whole thing over, say, 6 hrs.
Once you're under the effect, be sure to fight the urge to down alot of it
at once- this is really important- it will come back up within a minute, no
more than 2-3 gulps at any one time.. (This is really based on the african
brew, however, while the extract ought to be easier, I doubt it's less
volatile)
If you do this correctly, you're gonna trip harder but much, much morecomfortable than on
the outset. So don't go by first impression... If this is the highest-grade
rootbark, you're
looking at 2.4 gms of ibogaine (40gms x 6%) If it's average, maybe as low as
1.2gms which
just barely accomodates a full trip... I don't think you ought to risk not
having enough by preparing
only 20gms and you're pretty much in the safe-zone even if you did the
entire batch... Besides, I
promise you, you'll hear this voice that'll tell ya to 'take more' and it
also told me 'no more'.. so when
all is said and done, you're going to be playing this by ear... uh, no pun
intended....
3.) Consider borrowing a mini-tape recorder, it is about the one thing that
one can do at almost any point in the trip... you're otherwise not going to
hold a pen,
imo, not even the following day....
4.) Be sure to remove wristwatch and the batteries from those annoying wall
units- if I were
your watcher, you'd have no indication to the time, I would even lie to
you... As well, disconnect
the phone's ringer, including having your watcher put his cell phone on
silent-mode....
5.) And yet another reminder- do this at night, start at night, after 10pm,
I can't stress
this point enough and I recall Laurent Sazy and maybe Planteur mentioning
this as well...
Remember - this is your dark night of the soul....Adam Gur--------From: nicks22@...
Hi Brooke,
I don't know if you're referring to the recipe posted at
www.ibogaine.co.uk/extract.htm but if so it's actually just half a bottle of
vodka and two glasses of red wine + the lemon juice. Don't know that itmakes so much difference but just to let you know.
For the food prior to cleansing, raw or steamed veggies + fresh fruit would
be the best, imo. This basic alkaline diet should smooth the experience at
an emotional and physical level, again just my opinion.
Good luckNick-------From: brooke@...Thanks Nick - you've been helpful and supportive from the beginning (as
everyone here has been) so I'm mucho appreciative.
I have the batch 'brewing' as you read this - plan to partake next
Saturday night, and my watcher is reading up to prepare as well. I'll
take your advice on the food, and include it with my liver cleanse the
day before.
My only serious concern right now is how I'll 'be' after the process,
functionally speaking. I just found out that I have to fly and give a
series of new media lectures a week later, and I'm wondering if anyone
can counsel me on how 'spacy' I might be at this point?
Thanks in advance as always. Also, to everyone that has asked, I'll be
providing my watcher with access to the mindvox mail for the duration
of the trip, so watch your inboxes around midnight PST next saturday!Brooke------------From: bcalabrese@...Brooke,
"a week later, and I'm wondering if anyone
can counsel me on how 'spacy' I might be at this point?"
You should be fine after 20-30gm, 50gm might be a different story. There may be some attention span deficit but a week out most people are at their most colofrul and vibrant.. During iboga it goes from one vision/thought to the next, yes as Howard said, just talk as the visions evaporate rather quickly and are moving on to the next one (for hours). Sometimes for a period of time after there is a minor version of this, people can be on one thing and the mind wonders to the next and the next.
I too like iboga at night and try to have full effect come on just after dark. I also find it easier on the sitter and myself/myself and the ibonaught to not do it too late.
If you have forced air heating/cooling you might want to adjust the temp of the house a couple hours before and turn off the air while you get into it. maybe shut the fridge also. The first several hours are the most sensitive with lights/sounds/discomfort. Oddly, natural sounds like rain or thunder (or bullfrogs trying to get some) during ibogaine is not that distracting, turning the page of a book 20 feet away can be.
One of the most amazing things was my first time, going outside (full-on the ibo) and watching the stars/universe over the ocean. It felt like some kind of energy flowing right through, like a galactic wind.
Remember, move slow or better don't move, be assisted if you need to get up. Deep breath if you get any anxiety though less likely than HCL (can be rough), open your eyes or simply blink, or with a thought to change a vision.
I like a nice hot bath first, do nothing anxiety producing, get relaxed, just a touch of incense (nag champa) and some medtation music to start.. You can drink natural fluids, tea (no caffine) ginger is a favorite, real fruit juice or water up to about 4 hours before ingesting iboga, be well hydrated but not saturated - remember, you are going to have to pee, this is typically what inspires the first vomiting, getting up to go to the bathroom. You don't want a belly full of liquid when you take the iboga.
If you have anything special to work on, get into the iboga first, keep the mind blank, don't try to watch for visions, they can be very subtle - if I stared at them they certainly won't happen. Basically, make like sleeping, flat on the back is generally best than on a side or face down, sitting cross legged also works for some people.
After, vitamin B complex, eating (start easy), fluids and moving will help shake it off. Some people will be fine the next morning (I HATE THEM) or afternoon after they have eaten, others may take several days. Just take it easy, reflect, explore, see the world again for the first time,.don't have to do anything, you may be oozy for several days, mostly in the early morning and at dusk. Artifacts (like visual disturbances) can go on for weeks, emotional stuff can bubble-up, there can be anything from mild depression (more common in addicts) to elation, you could be a bit strange for a couple days... it will work itself out.
Oh, and of course sex is usually amazing, if you want to be with that person . On the relationship thingie, whatever it is it will generally be seen - same with yourself, you will see. One person I know ended a marrage 2 weeks after doing ibo, good decision.
Have a wonderful journey. LAST THING, come back. If you get some kind of choice to leave or come back, don't leave, it will disturb your sitter, get in the news and stuff. We don't want that.
Again, my experience is with extracts and ibogaine HCL, not root bark.
Brett-----------From: nicks22@...Yes, about a week afterwards is good. Certainly for me. I used to get a feeling of being "connected" to everything around me come on about 30 hours after taking the ibo and it would last a week or two then drift away. Rather like the boundaries around what is or isn't me were dissolved - extremely relaxing. I remember walking about 5 miles along the Regents Canal in London right after coming off a session to go to a conference. The whole experience was just a flowing ball of energy - amazing. Thoughts, feelings, sights and sounds all coherently just flowing around. It's a great space to talk to a group from because you will feel the connection between yourself and the audience stronger than usual, and this is what turns people on when they listen to you. It'll be great.
Nick-------From: HSLotsof@...With a root bark extract, that had been prepared many years ago, I was
experiencing the light flash effect five to six days out. I am talking about the
little bursts of light that seem to appear everywhere and are seen by many
persons taking ibogaine/iboga. Really had me worried and thought it was going to be
permanent. Luckily it was not. Just did not want you flipping out if that
occurred.
Howard
---------From: CallieMimosa@...Has anyone ever had a really bad or negative trip on Ibogaine? I have heard nothing but good and positive things. Certainly there must be someone who had a bad experience.
Thought I might check out the Erowid vault. They usually have some postings both good and bad of folks experience.
CallieFrom: HSLotsof@...The ibogaine dossier treatment section<http://www.ibogaine.desk.nl/treatment.html> covers both positive and not so positive patient responses. Treatment
episode <http://ibogaine.desk.nl/experience-1297.html> was of an early stkitts when I believe their were dose escalating up from what were pre-therapeuticdoses. The patients was very angry and trying to get her money back. I
provided some response in defense of the treatment outcome. And, the answer is
yes, you are always going to get some patient who is dissatisfied but, not many.Howard--------From: deartheo@...Callie,I think Many shades of grey between bad/- and good/+ (defining good and bad not as did it 'cure me' but as was the experience a pleasant one or not)...I assume all journey's have lessons; I've heard some say on this list iboga/ine can be a harsh teacher. in my own journey, it was a mix...stopped vomiting at 5 days after dose...but 8 months of diarrhea isn't fun either : )tmi sorry, it Didn't take away ALL of my sickness but the miracle is the large majority of the vast unimaginable sick was taken away and the important and most profound part was how my mental reaction to what's left of the sick has changed; like unfocusing so I can refocus, unstablizing so I can become stable, and iboga very much helps to not let the persistence of sick get to me and it gradually gets better, exhausted as fuck, but better. "the only way around this shit is through"I'd say it's like if I need to get from my house to the house across the street...I can get their by walking directly (if your not much for exploring; or if your already in the habit of surrendering will to sickness it isn't that difficult to switch to listening to the guide of iboga, as long as trust is there) or I can walk the opposite direction from the house and walk my own path and since the world is round I'll get there eventually which promises be a very long yet exciting journey yet perhaps harsh teacher, can anything that focus's reality do any thing else but be a sometimes harsh teacher, some reality just isn't pretty, and iboga seems to make face reality? Yage, I hear, is similar perhaps? Even herb can ,to some, be a harsh teacher (give a high dose of herb to a non-smoker who has panic attacks and see, my money is on 1 out of 25 panic maybe, who knows.) I've heard that xanex can be used with iboga unlike most other drugs (though wouldn't recommend it of course), but I wonder if it is a good idea to have on hand by the iboga provider if a person has a history of panic/anxiety just in case; When I fed to much herb to a panic person a xanex always made them fine in 10-20 mins. With some breath work in the meantime. They suck cock for xanex now but they don't panic anymore : ) Was talking to this lady about iboga and my friend over heard me say "...yeah, i kicked a opioid addiction with iboga..." And he yells out angrily "iboga didn't do it dude, you did it!!" I don't think either one is completely correct. I'm not sure which is filling the other's cracks, I'm just happy the cracks are being filled. Not sure if either one could have done it without the other.-Jason-------From: brooke@...I definitely have panic attacks on 'herb', especially considering that it's
BC bud (strongest in the world) - and have often wondered how a strong ibo
trip would compare in the breathless/out-of-control department. I don't
want to rely on other substances to keep me calm, but I don't want to have a
heart attack either...---------From: bcalabrese@...Good Trip/Bad Trip? They are all good, they often show you the bad. My last addiction, ibo KICKED MY ASS over smoking over and over, showed me "things to come" if I didn't change the behavior. Now that was not fun at all, but I quit smoking. Iboga is a teacher, it will show you things you already know but can't see, sometimes things you don't know, sometimes the lessons are hard, emotions come up, things come up...
On the way up HCL tends to, well, can be like strapped to a rocket going inward. Indra extract and I would assume dried root bark (someone help me out here) should be a lot calmer, smoother, softer on the way up where the anxiety is usually produced. Even that, simple deep breathing will do the trick, 3 in and out to the count of 4 - deep slow yogic breaths. If you like smoke something, it does go well with iboga. There is a product called Rescue Remedie by Bach Flower Remedies (health food store), it is wonderful for anxiety, withdrawal cravings and will have no negative effect with iboga. I wouldn't worry about it, it is much easier not to. There is an element of fear to doing iboga, even after doing it.
Mostly it isn't that ibogaine is a bad trip, it is a rough trip. It is very long, takes a lot of time to recover, there is often nausea, vomiting, ataxia, lots of feelings, perhaps hours and hours of visions and dialog... It is simply a HUGE amount of stuff to process and it is pretty disgusting, long and arduous. Nobody takes ibogaine for how it feels (in tripping amounts), they take it for what it does.
Don't fight it, just relax into it and let it take you. If you want it to stop, open your eyes and turn on the lights (low), breath deep and slow, in a few minuts you will shake some of it off - literally wake up. If you want to change a vision, blink, you don't even have to open your eyes - better not to. As far as tripping, open eyed the most you are likely to see is some visual distortions, strobic magnesium flare to lights or outlines of things, they can get intense - my first time they were pretty cool, they get old, especially when you have them at night for a couple weeks after... the lights pick them up and you can get trails. Other times I have not had much, every iboga session is unique as to content and often side effects.
Recovery generally goes like this. You feel crappy, like sick, well till you start to glow, then sometimes it can even be manic for a couple days, too too much sometimes (mostly with HCL), then it settles down. The next 10 days-2 weeks ther is still an overt feeling (often) of the iboga in you, it is a wonderful time generally speaking.
Now, want a BAD iboga trip, don't listen do advice, don't follow protocol, don't do set/setting, don't have a good sitter, don't follow directions, think you are a bad-ass (after all you took acid LOL!!!!)... That will pretty much assure you of one hellish time, In that case good for your dumb ass, be glad you only scared the shit out of yourself or failed at your attempt at drug treatment.
Brett----------From: ptpeet@...LOL, just saying, this stuff works great on cats too- no matter how unruly
of "catty" this stuff calms them right out, turns them into pussycats.
I hadn't thought of trying it myself for withdrawals. Hmmm. How does a
human "take" Rescue Remedy, Brett?
(light bulbs going off.)
Peace,Preston------------From: deartheo@...lol. just don't focus on it and you'll be fine, remember what's written on the cover of the hitchickers guide to the galaxy "DON'T PANIC", test dose helped me to ease into the experience; which i would prefer instead of hitting like cold water; i didn't feel anxious during ibo, but if i did i imagine it would of been like some inner dialoge asking why am i feeling anxious? and a million different question/answer dialoge about it so i would think that even if it comes up it can be used as an opportunity to find the root and perhaps reevaluate the situation from a different perspective...I'm not sure how well trying to avoid something ibo's trying to show would turn out though, i didn't try.
-Jason----------From: brooke@...sounds like naturally bravery to me...you're blessed
I'm a pretty fearful person, and hide behind myriad masks. Sad thing is I
KNOW what's lurking behind each of them, and the nature of the tangled roots
that feed the faces from my own dark soil. I'm just hoping this helps to
make the struggle a bit more tangible in the end...like weeding the garden
in sunlight.
bFrom: deartheo@...Know that you aren't alone in your journey...and it sounds like it will be a productive one. Remember we all look up at the same stars and sun and breathe the same air, and act and react from desire and fear, what are the limitations of (fill in the blank)? ...i'll puff some buddha and exhale a blessing for your journey the night of.
cheers,
Jason----------From: nicks22@...Hi Brooke,
Something that has helped me is remembering that iboga usually DOES cause
anxiety as it comes on, typically about 30 minutes after taking it. Of
course, you don't have the actual experience of this yet but it can still be
helpful to know. Strange pulsings through the body, heightened hearing, anda general feeling that the body is being "cranked up" to a different
vibration are all pretty common. Fears that one is going to die are also
quite likely. The mind doesn't like to let go and will often fight the drug
as it feels its presence "trying to take over". With all of these things my
advice is to be aware that the stuff being experienced is normal, that it
will pass, and to have a friend by your side, holding your hand is good.
15-20g max of rootbark is good for a first time experience, I'd say. You
never know how strong the stuff is so it's good to keep it exciting but
safe. Once your body has done the drug once, it'll know what it's like and
be more relaxed about going there a second time later.
This is a great time to do iboga, just after the Spring equinox,
traditionally a time when light overtakes dark, so all the signs are most
auspicious. I'm going to do some myself later today. Can't wait!
Nick-----------From: hannah.clay@...Hi everyone!
I've never posted here before although I've been following your
discussions for a couple of months.I've had a heroin addiction for 4 years
and have tried several different detox methods without much success.I can do
the detox but its the 'staying off' that I seem to have a problem with.I
started Subutex a month ago.I don't wanna bore you all with my story but I'm
really interested in Ibogaine.I'm in the UK.Would I need to buy it over that
Net?Would rootbark be better than HCl?
My two main concerns are:
I get really depressed n my heads really messed up.I worry alot....I guess
I'm trying to say I mess my own head up thinking too much n when tripping on
K or Shrooms (I'm not comparing the experience) I have put myself in a bad
place in this way.I solved this with breathing exercises n meditation but I
need to be Reminded to do this!Will I be ok?
I feel Ibogaine could help invaluably with my self-awareness and
development.I know you've already mentioned 'bad trips'.None of my friends
know anything about Iboga-they think its like LSD.I need a sitter who I can
trust n this could be the ultimate problem I have.
What was the other?...
Oh,would Subutex affect it in anyway?It is an opiate blocker but as Iboga
isn't an opioide,will it make any difference?
Thankyou all so much for your input.I've amassed alot of information that
will be invaluable when it comes to 'my time'.Although I was first attracted
to Ibogaine through H detox,now I see it as more of a spiritual experience
that could finally help me become happy to be me.
Cheers!
Hannah
From: epoptica@...>Hannah,
As you are in the UK - you could always give me a call if you want to chat
more about it.
You can get my number off the www.ibogaine.co.uk site.Love Hattie
---------------
From: jfreed1@...I dunno if this is what Callie was talking about, but one of the things
that has kept me from taking ibogaine thus far (apart from the cost and
logistics of getting hold of it) is fear of a bad experience. Not a bad
experience as in "it didn't do what i thought/wanted it to", but a bad
experience as in completely freaking the fuck out.
I've had a number of very traumatising experiences on LSD; one of which
left me with a pretty severe anxiety disorder (panic attacks, intense fear
of going insane, etc) for a number of years afterwards. I also had a
moderately traumatising experience on 2CT7; not anywhere near as severe as
the LSD ones, but still something I really don't care to repeat.
I find I'm able to use mushrooms generally without any bad shit going
down, but I've (finally..ehe) learned that I have to be VERY careful with
more powerful psychedelics.
At any rate, there's a large part of me that really would like to try
ibogaine (or maybe an iboga extract), especially because I think it could
help with my cigarette addiction, but also just because it sounds so
fascinating; but I'm very wary of ending back up in a psychiatric
hospital.
As much as I love Syd Barrett's music, I'm not too keen on emulating his
lifestyle...ehe. I'm finally at a point in my life where I'm relativelystable (don't use hard drugs any more, haven't attempted suicide in years,
have a decent job,etc) and part of me is really afraid to risk losing
this.
And, while i'm ranting about this..ehe... another thing that has me afraid
of doing ibogaine/iboga is that i'd have to stop taking my meds before
hand. i'm currently taking effexor and remeron, which i think have been
very useful in getting me to the reasonably stable point i'm at now. and
so, in addition to being afraid that the ibogaine will make me completely
flip my shit, i'm afraid that going off the meds will revert me to the
suicidal lump that i was years ago...
anyway, sorry for going off there, but i've been needing to get that out
for sometime, i think....and I'd be very interested to hear what you folksthink...
thanx,jon---------From: CallieMimosa@...
That is exactly what I am talking about.
I have tripped on acid in past without ever having a 'bad' trip but I have seen folks totally freak. I know Ibogaine is not acid but acid and mescaline trips are the only ones I have personal experience with.
I just think it would be terrible to start tripping on Ibogaine and it be a scary, psychotic torture trip.
I know that in order to face my personal demon and to look at the ruin I made in my past will not be pleasant. I have much difficulty looking at it with a somewhat clear head. I mean I really have a hard time.
Sometimes when I think of my children being 4 and 8 when I was so fucked up. I left them with their Dad (who was a great Dad BTW) and I can hardly think of the pain and disappointment I caused them. That is just my kids....I hurt my parents, my ex-husband, some close friends and on and on.
I just am afraid I would go totally insane, permanently check out mentally if I had to honestly relive this.
Callie-------From: brooke@...I have tried to express similar fears...the few 'darker' trips I've had
have been incredibly terrifying, and the sensation of death of
general 'evil' have pushed me very close to the brink.
I know that much of this has to do with repressed guilt and a general
sense of anger with life and myself - manifesting as the demons and
torment in my visions - but I'm concerned that by reliving all of my
horrible choices and deeds at once, I may just 'lose' it, no matter how
supportive and clarifying my watcher is.
I've always been a bit of a high-strung guy...while the rest of the
laid-back west coast population can smoke a ton of weed and 'chill' and
giggle for hours, I have a tiny puff and things get very wonky - VERY
quickly. My thoughts and perception of stimuli are fairly profound
with a 'clear' head - when I'm on a mild psychadelic, it's only
compounded exponentially.
Can anyone here assure me that they're of a similar mindset, and
somehow survived the experience
mentally/emotionally/psychically/spiritually intact?
b---------------From: bcalabrese@...Callie
"I know Ibogaine is not acid but acid and mescaline trips are the only ones I have personal experience with."
Good, it isn't anything like any of those. If you can imagine 4th dimensional dreaming, that would be a good description.
"just think it would be terrible to start tripping on Ibogaine and it be a scary, psychotic torture trip."
OH MY GOD, THAT WOULD BE TERRIBLE!!!!!
Good thing you can open your eyes at any time or blink and change the station you are tuned into. You had me worried for a second. You are still stuck with a disgusting buzz, nausea, etc.
"I just am afraid I would go totally insane, permanently check out mentally if I had to honestly relive this."
First, if you are not already insane ibogaine isn't going to make you insane and no, you are not going to "check out" anywhere (that's cheating)..
Ibogaine/iboga allows someone to re-intergrate past events. This is a helpful thing when you want the shit you did to stop keeping you from who you are, and happiness.
Iboga is peace, love, understanding and knowledge, a bit like ZEN in a pill. I remember my first time, I was ready for those demons, and there I was, they were a coming, any time now, so finally I visualized some demon looking creature and started to laugh at it. Iboga is also the truth and you will be shown, but not the way you normally see things, it is somewhat detached, matter of fact, lessons in parables that are YOU pick the answers to - it is really pretty wild, but not, it is all you. Addiction and all the things we hold onto so dearly fights like a cat being stuffed in a toilet bowl (for cleaning, it was at the suggestion of the dog, dumb dog forgot to warn me about my fingers around the edge of the lid). Anway, what I am saying is that fear keeps us stuck (wherever), ain't nothing else better at breaking through than ibogaine. You will forgive yourself, you deserve it.
The events and issues come as they come. People tend to get what they need and can handle/process, some don't get visions - sit there in a lit room and you will likely have none, but why?
You wil be just fine. The worst part about doing ibogaine is awfulizing about it... (stop that).. As far as you fear reliving it, perhaps that is fear of being relieved of it...
Brett
----------From: bcalabrese@...Brooke'
"but I'm concerned that by reliving all of my
horrible choices and deeds at once, I may just 'lose' it, no matter how
supportive and clarifying my watcher is"
That is exactly what you want to do, lose it (the horrible choices and deeds).. Anyway, it isn't like a garbage truck comes along and dumps all your shit on your head, event by event in excrutiating and painful detail - relax! Marc Emory said something abou it being the Ghost of Christmas Past, something like that, very non-judgmental, or there are parables, or any number of visions and dialogs in different ways.
"Can anyone here assure me that they're of a similar mindset, and
somehow survived the experience
mentally/emotionally/psychically/spiritually intact?"
That is the whole point of taking iboga in the first place, to be "mentally/emotionally/psychically/spiritually intact", that is what iboga does.
Take 3 yogic breaths, say Ohhhhmmmmmmmmm, and take the iboga. .I hate thinking about taking it also (cuz yuck), so I don't.
Brett---------From: deartheo@...Didn't Tim L. talk about wondering how much information/reality the human mind can stand? How much knowledge can the human brain/mind take before it is overwhelmed? Very serious stuff to consider I guess.
I've had bad/panic type experiences on LSD (the person I dropped with was convinced that his was cut with poison and a few hours later when I finally got distance from them I started thinking "I took the same thing they did" and bam, panic etc. Yes, on LSD and X;, but never on natural ones like shrooms or mescal/peyote; iboga wasn't like any of these, it definitely has it's own character and personality--. To be honest, I was scarred shitless beforehand of going through it. Sickness is bad enough by itself, sick while tripping (takes me back to my Laam cold turkey kick (4 hours of sleep in 6 weeks--beyond unspeakable pain); so yeah, iboga lasting as long as it does...disserves not fear but respect. My biggest fear with it is biting off more then can chew then being stuck for so long in that harsh lesson; respect it, learn it, but fear it? I haven't felt 'out of control' on iboga; Ego seems to be able to be present, discarded or kept at your choice...too often we put back on our armor out of habit after the experience, i went to jail afterwards and that definitely made shit worse in that regard, more hardened, less trusting...which is the direct opposite of what iboga told me was the way......Sometimes a mind blinder is just what was needed. I am a little biased in this but for me: lsd only scatters, iboga scatters then re-focus's; it was very spiritual, but remember when I say this that the basics of Buddha:
1. All life is suffering
2. The cause of suffering is dukka (loosely trans. as desire)
3. The way to graduate from suffering is through compassion.
I would imagine a facilitator could give better information on how often people just loose it; i'd bet their aren't many if everything is done in a respectful, non-arrogant, and teachable way.
I got hit with a bombshell today...Few weeks back had the roughest time I had yet and HAD to talk to someone....so not being experienced in international calls from Texas I call Sara (www.iboga.tk) and she was compassionate enough to talk to me for...lets see...(flipping through 'war&piece'phone bill)....about 149 minutes...I felt much better afterwards and she didn't make a dime off of talking to me. I had no idea...the phone bill came today.....$750 Stuff like that will make me like SdBarrett, not iboga : ) I think Marc Emery's Christmas Past analogy is fitting, but I'm probably a little biased to that subject too.-Jason
-----------From: nicks22@...Hi Brooke,
I come from a multi-trauma'ed background - separation from birth parents,
abuse, hospitalization - pretty much a horror trip (or so therapists will
tell you). And I've had acutely negative experiences on acid, resulting in
me not touching it for nearly 20 years.
I took some rootbark last night and had my usual "mild horror trip" - a lot
of fear around being alone, underlying existential fears about waking up and
finding I was the only person alive, and fear of encounters with repressed
sides of my personality, wandering around my psyche like demons. But,
basically, it was a benign and learning experience. The drug just gives me
the chance to see where I'm holding myself back and how I can direct myself
in life and therapy. And, basically, I have always been attracted to the
dark side as well as the light. It's ok to check out the torture chambers
occasionally. Like this you get to really know yourself.
Ibo's really not like acid - acid just lays its trip on you whether you want
it or not. Ibogaine has intelligence. It shows you what you need to grow -
maybe the mind judges stuff it experiences as "bad", maybe "good." But
that's just the judgments. What I would advise is that you do it with
someone you know (who's not taking it) and hold their hand on the experience
til you feel safe. Might sound childish but any level of contact with
another human will help you feel more secure in a new environment. Also, of
course, be aware how fear can just suck you in to its little mind game and
go for directing the experience a little if it feels good. You also need to
be secure inside yourself before you start that this is something YOU
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