Nina <murrkis@...> wrote:

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
wrote:
> <<I personally don't see this
> girl as "bewildered" at all.
> Like most bright, computer-
> equipped kids of her years,
> she's far too savvy to not
> be aware of the age-old
> haves vs. have-nots
> dichotomy that has
> characterized human history
> from the recorded gitgo.
>
> Sandeep is also very canny
> -- he's presenting this as
> a guilt trip to ellicit
> sympathy from materially
> comfortable middle-class
> folks who, by dint of
> cultural and/or hormonal
> conditioning, are attracted
> to little children.  There
> is a big difference between
> guilt/shame-provoked
> sentiment and true compassion,
> which isn't in the least bit
> sentimental and is never the
> result of deft emotional
> manipulation.>>
>
>
> Oh Bruce....does there always have
> to be an agenda behind everything?
>
> Cannot any kind of 'world in opposites'
> situation simply be taken as another
> opportunity to see what arises, to
> question our own deeply embedded, deeply
> invested in beliefs?
>
> If guilt arises, it does.
> Look into that.
>
> If the impulse to curse Dubya Bush
> arises, look into that.
>
> If the impulse arises to look at
> what one is doing in their own life,
> look into that.
>
> What could be so bad?
>
> Everything in life has an opposite.
>
> ~~freyja

Freyja, Sandeep's post is likely not
about 'what arises'. However, since he
is noticably silent, we may never know.
We are, however, playing out the 'puppet'
role admirably, by debating these things
in his absence. In essence, we are showing
him the 'ass' he probably expected to see.

___This does provoke a good laugh, I hope he well recieves. Glad to be an ass for the cause of the less suffering scenerio.

I tend to side with Bruce, in that Pallavi
isn't so much bewildered, but making a point,
which she has 'figured out'. People don't
tend to put anything out in the world unless
they've 'figured it out' in some way. It may
be seen that this applies to Sandeep's post,
as well.

__ No real need to run on assumption, it did cause a small stir.

Have you ever spent much time taking in
'performance art'? At some point, you realize
that your participation in it is merely to
show up and have a reaction. You play the
puppet role - moved by the performance art
as if it were the puppetmaster. That is what
'art' is about - skillful manipulation. The
artist trains for years to learn how to
effectively produce reactions - whatever they
might be.

___ True, although a crying baby effectively produces a response as does a smiling one, quite so, more effectively then many trained actors.

Have you ever gone to such a performance
and not played along? The artist, and all the
puppets, get very upset. You might ask why
it is such a sin... not to play along.

Nina

___ I wonder how one would go about orchestrating a play that everyone enjoyed much of the freedoms us americans have come to understand? COuld we simple put on a display of the gift of minding our own affairs enough to in that we have such a contented/self reliant society that the global community can learn from if they so choose to? I wonder...

Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:

Nina wrote:

Hello, Sandeep,
Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would
care to share your answer to Pallavi's question.
In your file description, you say she has it figured out.
However, she only asks questions, and nevers offers a
conclusion. Perhaps, you have found a conclusion somewhere
in her show... and this is what I am interested to know.
What moved you to post it here?

I thought Nina might be moved.
Pallavi, a 12 year old girl,.......is just bewildered with the world right now.
What would you Nina, like to answer her?

No, no, you posted the original, please do go first as
regards what you would like to answer her.
Nina
Oh come now Nina, take the leap.
Peace and Love

Jason, you might be able to see that I have already
taken a leap, considering Sandeep's cryptic,
uncontextualized posting. If he gives it context,
then a discussion may ensue, otherwise, the posting
remains in the realm of flippant one-linership,
another manipulation via senti-mentality. That's why
I was asking him what his thoughts behind it were -
it can't be that Sandeep is intending to come from
such a place.

I personally don't see this
girl as "bewildered" at all.
Like most bright, computer-
equipped kids of her years,
she's far too savvy to not
be aware of the age-old
haves vs. have-nots
dichotomy that has
characterized human history
from the recorded gitgo.

That seem extremely shallow Bruce. To suggest that a 12 year old isn't bewildered by all the images of suffering she sees with enough gumption to put a presentation together asking "why does this have to be this way?"

Sandeep is also very canny
-- he's presenting this as
a guilt trip to ellicit
sympathy from materially
comfortable middle-class
folks who, by dint of
cultural and/or hormonal
conditioning, are attracted
to little children.  There
is a big difference between
guilt/shame-provoked
sentiment and true compassion,
which isn't in the least bit
sentimental and is never the
result of deft emotional
manipulation.

Wow, really? Compassion not born of sentiment? Not born of guilt/shame provokation? What is compassion if not for the have-nots in contrast of the haves?

You actually could easily feel like that presentation is an emotional guilt trip, that seems quite discompassionate.

It's a reality, a truth to this global village we live, a great reasoning behind wars that rage between the compassionate (haves) and the discompassionate (haves) therefore this, the have-nots a result.

Perhaps if the global village was enroute to settling some of the materilastic principles from the basic needs scenario, there would be more compassion that isn't born out of anything sentimental.

Yes, Bruce I want the good ole days when people died of starvation and lived an entire live of fear for thier lives.

Yet we even have people here (in the us) running around taking all kinds of drugs and drink just to get through the day without fear, this from the healthy well-fed group, thats pretty sad also.

There is plenty of natural selection occuring, which isn't going to change because the haves are or are not offering up the resources they protect so defly. There is plenty of contrast that humans have little, if any, control over. But we still have at it over materials that we don't need.

Whether reality is manipulating us or we are manipulating reality or an even combination, any which way, there still appears to be a choice and people still appear to choose live and let die, long slow painfully horrific deaths, while they cannot even contribute an instant of thier time to even write a few words on an answer for a 12 year old girl that poses a question, as complex, as the simple why question is. We'd much rather find the modus operanda of it. That to me is the apex of discompassion of which I don't feel guilt for.

Peace and Love

---

>freyjartist@a... wrote: (attribution manually added by author)

Gene Had written:

> <<It appears to me that this powerpoint file was
> NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may
> have been involved in its production.
>
> I agree with Nina and Bruce's assessment; and
> although some discussion has been forthcoming,
> my suggestion is that yes, the thing is definitely
> manipulative and yes, it does assume that there is
> already a context within the 'reader' which will be
> prompted to react in a certain predictable way, as
> has Jason.
>
> Babies? Puppies? Kittens?
>
> Dead babies? Where are the
> dead puppies and dead kittens?
>
> And Freyja, are you drunk, or what?>>
>

Freya responded:

> Drunk?   Why? because
> you're not agreeing with
> my assessment?

You call that an 'assessment'?

> Which does
> not obviously align with Nina and Bruce's?
> Not drunk, just getting radical here
> today.

A well-known behaviour of the intoxicated.

> The thing is manipulative
> IF you see it that way,
> that's all, but it doesn't
> mean it absolutely is.

'Absolutely' was not an attribute
assigned by me!

(straw-man argument fails)

> The other thing
> is, it depends who is viewing
> the thing, who it is being shown to,
> what are the qualities of
> the demographic sample.

Well, duh!

(appeal to popularity argument fails)

> People on this list may have differing
> reactions, but in the spirit of self-inquiry,
> which I am sure is occuring in many of the
> members,
> there is no need to dismiss this piece
> out of hand as "manipulative".

'Dismiss'? I did not 'dismiss' it at all!

Your 'assessment' is still requested!

So far, you have 'assessed' only the
other 'assessors'.

> <<Good grief!
>
> Oh yeah? so what does Lucy
> say to Charlie Brown when
> he says "Good Grief?"
>
> "You're such a bonehead, Charlie Brown!"
>
> ~~freyja

Projections noted!


==Gene Poole==

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
<murrkis@y...> wrote:
> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
> wrote:
> > <<I personally don't see this
> > girl as "bewildered" at all.
> > Like most bright, computer-
> > equipped kids of her years,
> > she's far too savvy to not
> > be aware of the age-old
> > haves vs. have-nots
> > dichotomy that has
> > characterized human history
> > from the recorded gitgo.
> >
> > Sandeep is also very canny
> > -- he's presenting this as
> > a guilt trip to ellicit
> > sympathy from materially
> > comfortable middle-class
> > folks who, by dint of
> > cultural and/or hormonal
> > conditioning, are attracted
> > to little children.  There
> > is a big difference between
> > guilt/shame-provoked
> > sentiment and true compassion,
> > which isn't in the least bit
> > sentimental and is never the
> > result of deft emotional
> > manipulation.>>
> >
> >
> > Oh Bruce....does there always have
> > to be an agenda behind everything?
> >
> > Cannot any kind of 'world in opposites'
> > situation simply be taken as another
> > opportunity to see what arises, to
> > question our own deeply embedded, deeply
> > invested in beliefs?
> >
> > If guilt arises, it does.
> > Look into that.
> >
> > If the impulse to curse Dubya Bush
> > arises, look into that.
> >
> > If the impulse arises to look at
> > what one is doing in their own life,
> > look into that.
> >
> > What could be so bad?
> >
> > Everything in life has an opposite.
> >
> > ~~freyja
>
> Freyja, Sandeep's post is likely not
> about 'what arises'. However, since he
> is noticably silent, we may never know.
> We are, however, playing out the 'puppet'
> role admirably, by debating these things
> in his absence. In essence, we are showing
> him the 'ass' he probably expected to see.
>

Oh boy, Nina, all these ideas about intentions
and what a Sandeep is expecting!


> I tend to side with Bruce, in that Pallavi
> isn't so much bewildered, but making a point,
> which she has 'figured out'. People don't
> tend to put anything out in the world unless
> they've 'figured it out' in some way. It may
> be seen that this applies to Sandeep's post,
> as well.
>

If that is the reaction you have to it,
then that is fine with me.

I was just offering another take.

I'm not looking to be right.


> Have you ever spent much time taking in
> 'performance art'? At some point, you realize
> that your participation in it is merely to
> show up and have a reaction. You play the
> puppet role - moved by the performance art
> as if it were the puppetmaster. That is what
> 'art' is about - skillful manipulation. The
> artist trains for years to learn how to
> effectively produce reactions - whatever they
> might be.
>


Not much different than good ole'
Madison Avenue marketing and advertising.
That is an art, too.


> Have you ever gone to such a performance
> and not played along? The artist, and all the
> puppets, get very upset. You might ask why
> it is such a sin... not to play along.
>
> Nina


I'm sorry, Nina, can you please clarify this
last three sentences.

Who is looking for who to play along with
what here?

~~freyja

<<I personally don't see this
girl as "bewildered" at all.
Like most bright, computer-
equipped kids of her years,
she's far too savvy to not
be aware of the age-old
haves vs. have-nots
dichotomy that has
characterized human history
from the recorded gitgo.

Sandeep is also very canny
-- he's presenting this as
a guilt trip to ellicit
sympathy from materially
comfortable middle-class
folks who, by dint of
cultural and/or hormonal
conditioning, are attracted
to little children.  There
is a big difference between
guilt/shame-provoked
sentiment and true compassion,
which isn't in the least bit
sentimental and is never the
result of deft emotional
manipulation.>>


Oh Bruce....does there always have
to be an agenda behind everything?

Cannot any kind of 'world in opposites'
situation simply be taken as another
opportunity to see what arises, to
question our own deeply embedded, deeply
invested in beliefs?

If guilt arises, it does.
Look into that.

If the impulse to curse Dubya Bush
arises, look into that.

If the impulse arises to look at
what one is doing in their own life,
look into that.

What could be so bad?

Everything in life has an opposite.

~~freyja

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
wrote:
> <<I personally don't see this
> girl as "bewildered" at all.
> Like most bright, computer-
> equipped kids of her years,
> she's far too savvy to not
> be aware of the age-old
> haves vs. have-nots
> dichotomy that has
> characterized human history
> from the recorded gitgo.
>
> Sandeep is also very canny
> -- he's presenting this as
> a guilt trip to ellicit
> sympathy from materially
> comfortable middle-class
> folks who, by dint of
> cultural and/or hormonal
> conditioning, are attracted
> to little children.  There
> is a big difference between
> guilt/shame-provoked
> sentiment and true compassion,
> which isn't in the least bit
> sentimental and is never the
> result of deft emotional
> manipulation.>>
>
>
> Oh Bruce....does there always have
> to be an agenda behind everything?
>
> Cannot any kind of 'world in opposites'
> situation simply be taken as another
> opportunity to see what arises, to
> question our own deeply embedded, deeply
> invested in beliefs?
>
> If guilt arises, it does.
> Look into that.
>
> If the impulse to curse Dubya Bush
> arises, look into that.
>
> If the impulse arises to look at
> what one is doing in their own life,
> look into that.
>
> What could be so bad?
>
> Everything in life has an opposite.
>
> ~~freyja

Freyja, Sandeep's post is likely not
about 'what arises'. However, since he
is noticably silent, we may never know.
We are, however, playing out the 'puppet'
role admirably, by debating these things
in his absence. In essence, we are showing
him the 'ass' he probably expected to see.

I tend to side with Bruce, in that Pallavi
isn't so much bewildered, but making a point,
which she has 'figured out'. People don't
tend to put anything out in the world unless
they've 'figured it out' in some way. It may
be seen that this applies to Sandeep's post,
as well.

Have you ever spent much time taking in
'performance art'? At some point, you realize
that your participation in it is merely to
show up and have a reaction. You play the
puppet role - moved by the performance art
as if it were the puppetmaster. That is what
'art' is about - skillful manipulation. The
artist trains for years to learn how to
effectively produce reactions - whatever they
might be.

Have you ever gone to such a performance
and not played along? The artist, and all the
puppets, get very upset. You might ask why
it is such a sin... not to play along.

Nina

> "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:

> > > > > Hello, Sandeep,
> > > > >
> > > > > Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would
> > > > > care to share your answer to Pallavi's question.
> > > > >
> > > > > In your file description, you say she has it figured out.
> > > > > However, she only asks questions, and nevers offers a
> > > > > conclusion. Perhaps, you have found a conclusion somewhere
> > > > > in her show... and this is what I am interested to know.
> > > > >
> > > > > What moved you to post it here?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I thought Nina might be moved.
> > >
> > > Pallavi, a 12 year old girl,.......is just bewildered
> > > with the world right now.
> > >
> > > What would you Nina, like to answer her?
> >
> > No, no, you posted the original, please do go first as
> > regards what you would like to answer her.
> >
> > Nina
> >
> >
> > Oh come now Nina, take the leap.
> >
> > Peace and Love
>
> Jason, you might be able to see that I have already
> taken a leap, considering Sandeep's cryptic,
> uncontextualized posting. If he gives it context,
> then a discussion may ensue, otherwise, the posting
> remains in the realm of flippant one-linership,
> another manipulation via senti-mentality. That's why
> I was asking him what his thoughts behind it were -
> it can't be that Sandeep is intending to come from
> such a place.
>
>
> Nina

It appears to me that this powerpoint file was
NOT created by a 12YO girl, although one may
have been involved in its production.

I agree with Nina and Bruce's assessment; and
although some discussion has been forthcoming,
my suggestion is that yes, the thing is definitely
manipulative and yes, it does assume that there is
already a context within the 'reader' which will be
prompted to react in a certain predictable way, as
has Jason.

Babies? Puppies? Kittens?

Dead babies? Where are the
dead puppies and dead kittens?

And Freyja, are you drunk, or what?

Good grief!


==Gene Poole==

Nina wrote:

Hello, Sandeep,
Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would
care to share your answer to Pallavi's question.
In your file description, you say she has it figured out.
However, she only asks questions, and nevers offers a
conclusion. Perhaps, you have found a conclusion somewhere
in her show... and this is what I am interested to know.
What moved you to post it here?

I thought Nina might be moved.
Pallavi, a 12 year old girl,.......is just bewildered with the world right now.
What would you Nina, like to answer her?

No, no, you posted the original, please do go first as
regards what you would like to answer her.
Nina
Oh come now Nina, take the leap.
Peace and Love

Jason, you might be able to see that I have already
taken a leap, considering Sandeep's cryptic,
uncontextualized posting. If he gives it context,
then a discussion may ensue, otherwise, the posting
remains in the realm of flippant one-linership,
another manipulation via senti-mentality. That's why
I was asking him what his thoughts behind it were -
it can't be that Sandeep is intending to come from
such a place.

I personally don't see this
girl as "bewildered" at all.
Like most bright, computer-
equipped kids of her years,
she's far too savvy to not
be aware of the age-old
haves vs. have-nots
dichotomy that has
characterized human history
from the recorded gitgo.

That seem extremely shallow Bruce. To suggest that a 12 year old isn't bewildered by all the images of suffering she sees with enough gumption to put a presentation together asking "why does this have to be this way?"

Hello, Sandeep,
Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would
care to share your answer to Pallavi's question.
In your file description, you say she has it figured out.
However, she only asks questions, and nevers offers a
conclusion. Perhaps, you have found a conclusion somewhere
in her show... and this is what I am interested to know.
What moved you to post it here?

I thought Nina might be moved.
Pallavi, a 12 year old girl,.......is just bewildered with the world right now.
What would you Nina, like to answer her?

No, no, you posted the original, please do go first as
regards what you would like to answer her.
Nina
Oh come now Nina, take the leap.
Peace and Love

Jason, you might be able to see that I have already
taken a leap, considering Sandeep's cryptic,
uncontextualized posting. If he gives it context,
then a discussion may ensue, otherwise, the posting
remains in the realm of flippant one-linership,
another manipulation via senti-mentality. That's why
I was asking him what his thoughts behind it were -
it can't be that Sandeep is intending to come from
such a place.

> > > > Hello, Sandeep,
> > > >
> > > > Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would
> > > > care to share your answer to Pallavi's question.
> > > >
> > > > In your file description, you say she has it figured out.
> > > > However, she only asks questions, and nevers offers a
> > > > conclusion. Perhaps, you have found a conclusion somewhere
> > > > in her show... and this is what I am interested to know.
> > > >
> > > > What moved you to post it here?
> >
> >
> >
> > I thought Nina might be moved.
> >
> > Pallavi, a 12 year old girl,.......is just bewildered
> > with the world right now.
> >
> > What would you Nina, like to answer her?
>
> No, no, you posted the original, please do go first as
> regards what you would like to answer her.
>
> Nina
>
>
> Oh come now Nina, take the leap.
>
> Peace and Love

Jason, you might be able to see that I have already
taken a leap, considering Sandeep's cryptic,
uncontextualized posting. If he gives it context,
then a discussion may ensue, otherwise, the posting
remains in the realm of flippant one-linership,
another manipulation via senti-mentality. That's why
I was asking him what his thoughts behind it were -
it can't be that Sandeep is intending to come from
such a place.


Nina

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sandeep
<sandeepc@b...> wrote:
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Nina" <murrkis@y...>
> > To: <meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 07:56 AM
> > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Pallavi's question
> >
> >
> > > Hello, Sandeep,
> > >
> > > Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would
> > > care to share your answer to Pallavi's question.
> > >
> > > In your file description, you say she has it figured out.
> > > However, she only asks questions, and nevers offers a
> > > conclusion. Perhaps, you have found a conclusion somewhere
> > > in her show... and this is what I am interested to know.
> > >
> > > What moved you to post it here?
>
>
>
> I thought Nina might be moved.
>
> Pallavi, a 12 year old girl,.......is just bewildered with the
world right now.
>
> What would you Nina, like to answer her?

No, no, you posted the original, please do go first as
regards what you would like to answer her.

Nina

Oh come now Nina, take the leap.

Peace and Love

 

I just figured out that the best way is to do the uploading of Files on the Groups, rather than individual email-attachments.

 

Thanks to Yahoo, the connection speed at my end, the Void, The Force, whatever,....................it was/is taking nearly 60 mins to do one file uploading to a Group.

 

Even I the time-less,........... have to sleep at some time.:-)

 

 

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Jason Fishman

To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 07:41 AM

Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] New file uploaded to meditationsocietyofamerica

Nice share Sandeep.

 

Without going into a great deal of psycho-analysing.... I wonder why you didn't post it in some of the other groups? I wonder if perhaps you might think that the folks over here would be more moved to feel the message, then over in some of the other groups?

 

Peace and Love

meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the meditationsocietyofamerica
group.

  File        : /Why.pps
  Uploaded by : sandeep1960 <sandeepc@...>
  Description : A 12 year old girl, Pallavi has put it all together and asks the questions.To view needs MSN-PowerPoint. To download free viewing power-point software, go to: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=428d5727-43ab-4f24-90b7-a94784af71a4&displaylang=en  

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/files/Why.pps

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

sandeep1960 <sandeepc@...>

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--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sandeep
<sandeepc@b...> wrote:
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Nina" <murrkis@y...>
> > To: <meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 07:56 AM
> > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Pallavi's question
> >
> >
> > > Hello, Sandeep,
> > >
> > > Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would
> > > care to share your answer to Pallavi's question.
> > >
> > > In your file description, you say she has it figured out.
> > > However, she only asks questions, and nevers offers a
> > > conclusion. Perhaps, you have found a conclusion somewhere
> > > in her show... and this is what I am interested to know.
> > >
> > > What moved you to post it here?
>
>
>
> I thought Nina might be moved.
>
> Pallavi, a 12 year old girl,.......is just bewildered with the
world right now.
>
> What would you Nina, like to answer her?

No, no, you posted the original, please do go first as
regards what you would like to answer her.

Nina

----- Original Message -----

From: Jason Fishman

To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 07:41 AM

Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] New file uploaded to meditationsocietyofamerica

Nice share Sandeep.

 

Without going into a great deal of psycho-analysing.... I wonder why you didn't post it in some of the other groups? I wonder if perhaps you might think that the folks over here would be more moved to feel the message, then over in some of the other groups?

 

Peace and Love

meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the meditationsocietyofamerica
group.

  File        : /Why.pps
  Uploaded by : sandeep1960 <sandeepc@...>
  Description : A 12 year old girl, Pallavi has put it all together and asks the questions.To view needs MSN-PowerPoint. To download free viewing power-point software, go to: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=428d5727-43ab-4f24-90b7-a94784af71a4&displaylang=en  

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/files/Why.pps

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

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Regards,

sandeep1960 <sandeepc@...>

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Oh, pardon me, I misinterpreted 'put it all together'
from your description to mean 'figured it out'. Oops.
Nonetheless, I would still pose the same questions to
you...

Nina

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
<murrkis@y...> wrote:
> Hello, Sandeep,
>
> Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would
> care to share your answer to Pallavi's question.
>
> In your file description, you say she has it figured out.
> However, she only asks questions, and nevers offers a
> conclusion. Perhaps, you have found a conclusion somewhere
> in her show... and this is what I am interested to know.
>
> What moved you to post it here?
>
> Nina

Hello, Sandeep,

Since you uploaded this file, I wonder if you would
care to share your answer to Pallavi's question.

In your file description, you say she has it figured out.
However, she only asks questions, and nevers offers a
conclusion. Perhaps, you have found a conclusion somewhere
in her show... and this is what I am interested to know.

What moved you to post it here?

Nina

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the meditationsocietyofamerica
group.

  File        : /Why.pps
  Uploaded by : sandeep1960 <sandeepc@...>
  Description : A 12 year old girl, Pallavi has put it all together and asks the questions.To view needs MSN-PowerPoint. To download free viewing power-point software, go to: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=428d5727-43ab-4f24-90b7-a94784af71a4&displaylang=en  

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/files/Why.pps

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

sandeep1960 <sandeepc@...>

---

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• To visit your group on the web, go to:
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Dear Sandeep,
This is so beautiful, ugly, touching, revolting, thought provoking and
thought stopping. Thank you.
Peace and blessings,
Bob
--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
meditationsocietyofamerica
> group.
>
>   File        : /Why.pps
>   Uploaded by : sandeep1960 <sandeepc@b...>
>   Description : A 12 year old girl, Pallavi has put it all together
and asks the questions.To view needs MSN-PowerPoint. To download free
viewing power-point software, go to:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=428d5727-43ab-4f24-90b7\
-a94784af71a4&displaylang=en

>
> You can access this file at the URL
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/files/Why.pps
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit
>
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
>
> Regards,
>
> sandeep1960 <sandeepc@b...>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the meditationsocietyofamerica
group.

   File        : /Why.pps
   Uploaded by : sandeep1960 <sandeepc@...>
   Description : A 12 year old girl, Pallavi has put it all together and asks the
questions.To view needs MSN-PowerPoint. To download free viewing power-point
software, go to:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=428d5727-43ab-4f24-90b7\
-a94784af71a4&displaylang=en

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/files/Why.pps

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

sandeep1960 <sandeepc@...>

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Goode
<goode@d...> wrote:
> At 11:54 AM 1/31/2004 +0000, Nina wrote:
> >Hello, Greg, Jason, Michael L. and all,
> >
> >This weekend, I am taking a workshop with Lisa Clark, who
> >teaches Body Mind Centering. I'm enjoying getting her perspective
> >on the things we are discussing.
> >
> >In yogasana, one learns that one must go down to go up. Lisa
> >Clark is particularly adept at explaining how one meets the
> >earth, engaging it, by "yielding" (language in quotes is from
> >the BMC vocabulary). This is a sattvic state, the balance within
> >contact. When one 'befriends' gravity and does not attempt to
> >"prop" (rajasic resistance) against gravity or "collapse"
> >(tamasic release) into gravity, then there may be felt a
> >rebound of energy upwards through the body.
>
>
> This is true!  It's a way of allowing resistance to dissolve.
>
> In nondual meditation, it is easier to lose your sense of
separation once it is first found.  If it is well-identified and well-
integrated, it's easier to get a handle on.  Which is why therapy is
often very helpful.  That's like when I was in the Army in the 70s.
About guys who weren't doing well, the drill sergeants said, "He
don't have his shit together."  About other guys who were doing a bit
better, they said "He's got his shit together in one bag, but he just
can't find the bag."

Recently, I heard someone claim that one must learn the rules
first before one breaks them. I tend to think this is a little
one-dimensional, as we tend to me 'made up' of the tension
between rules and breaking them. It isn't that someone spends
the first ten years of their life learning and following the
rules and then busts out from there on out breaking all the rules.
Rather, the rules and the rule-breaking get written together,
at the same time. Further, rule-breaking may be seen to be
another rule...

Could be, also, that those who aren't well-integrated have
taken a shortcut to a minimizing sense of separation.

grins,
Nina

> > "Nina" <murrkis@y...> wrote:
> > It was curious, however, to wonder where she might place her
> > sense of 'center' (in fact, I might ask this question today).
> > Is it at the source of gravity? In this case, she is placing
> > it outside of her body.
>
> <<snip>>

--- "Gene Poole" <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
> <<snip>>
> Seen this way, it becomes apparent that the term 'local'
> is a parochial convenience, and not fact. There can be no
> 'local', because all of everything is 'merely' a temporary
> multidimensional 'expansion' of a single dot, which is
> itself the one and true 'center of everything'; there is
> no 'nonlocal'.
>
> 'We' live in a universe which is informed (created) by
> the force which projects from this 'dot'; in reality, we
> have no literal distance from it, although it seems to be
> utterly distant in time and space...

Thanks for that post, Gene, I see what you are saying.
Keeping that in mind, I will veer off into a tangent.

Embodiment seems to be a hot topic.

Are we our bodies? What, if any, value is there in living
a life in a body? Not only 'having a body', but in being
embodied. Is this at odds with enlightenment?

There are those, who would say: the body has nothing to
do with enlightenment. However, if enlightenment is a radical
transformation of consciousness, and 'as above, so below',
the body may be understood to be a 'map of consciousness',
then certainly the body is not a forbidden tool for enlightening.
It is no less forbidden than teachings from other masters. The flip
side of this is that it probably isn't going to get you 'there',
without a leap. The flip side of this, is that you have been
'there' from the very beginning!

While wandering through a local folk-art shop, I came
across an astounding little piece. It was astounding not
so much for what or how it was painted, or that it was
painted at all, which is already pretty astounding,
but rather, for the quote that was painted along the top:

"We walk by faith, and not by site alone."

This brings to mind the body as a repository of myths.
Faith is a blood relative of myth. Myths are diaphanous
and interpretable, so, strangely, it is round-about again
to the dissolution of the body.

Greg Goode has offered up one myth of dissolution of the
body - that the body is a collection of sensations.

Here is another myth of dissolution - the body is more
space than matter. To see this, one might immerse oneself
in the study of anatomy and physiology, moving, as one
does in yoga and meditation, from gross to subtle elements.
Skin, fat and fascia, muscle, bone, nerves,
veins and arteries, glands, cells... and so forth, through
molecules and atoms, subatomic particles, until finally,
it is revealed that within the tiniest elements that
compose everything within a body, there is only the tiniest
ratio of matter to space... if even that.

So, again, there is center then 'no-center'. Site, and then
no-site.

Dona Holleman has an interesting take on embodiment,
and the dynamic of body/no-body:

"To be totally attentive to the body means that you are
interested in the body and in the movement. 'Interest' in
Latin, as we said before, means 'to be inside'. It is the
moment of being inter-ested, being 'inside' the movement
or the posture as the posture unfolds that makes it complete.
There is no future reward and no retreating involved, but it
is only the moment as it is there. So the body is completely
filled with the mind. The mind fills the body completely
from the bone structure to the skin structure, while as long
as there is a future reward the mind is very small within the
skin and so there is a lot of empty space in the body."

Of course, Dona Holleman has also described her way of living
life earnestly, but as if she were giggling behind her hand at
it all.

Very nice ramblings, everyone, thank you for playing along...

Nina

There seem to be two understandings of 'center' emerging:

1. Center as a movable 'origin of work'. For instance,
the origin of the earth's gravity would be a center, which,
draws everything within its field towards itself, but also,
like a movie projector, projects outward, through all bodies
in space. This highlights the sense of 'gravity' and 'levity'
about a gravitational center. It may be seen that all centers,
whether gravitational or mental/ perspectival (which may also be
understood to be a sort of gravity), have this dual in/out
nature.
2. Center as that which is aware of whatever centers may emerge.
This is not as definable as regards location - where is it?
Could it be, like a movie projector, it is 'informing' all of those
various centers? Or, if you prefer, she is the borglike mothership,
sending out her minions. :)

After re-reading Gene's post (#12623 "Focalization - starfish -
stretching the mind"), what I have written above seems to be
getting to the same place.

I like how Gene has made a subtle point with the renaming of
one of the related threads as 'Focalization'... is what is
felt to be 'local', or that which 'localizes', really local,
or is it only how it is seen, ie, how it becomes a 'focal point'.

I asked Lisa Clark about centers, and the answer was neutral.
I think perhaps she felt that answering it was 'too big' for
the time we had. Oh well!

Nina

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
<munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
> Thanks for this Nina!
>
> I tend to think it's pretty valid to asess the position of a
center. I think it also valid to take note that perception really
never moves (even when it does or is perhaps always moving) it's
still me that perceives, movement, stillness or absense.
>
> I also tend to think that it's this localized format that keeps the
contrast in play (me verses you). With that said, along the lines of
anything is possible, would this include "not being me at all"? Maybe
experiencing anothers experience through thier eyes, as them, without
a sense of me-ness? That might be pushing the limits, but it does
seem curious.
>
> I have tended to notice through astral travel practice, that there
is no localized format but vision (some have said sound, I've never
had a long enoguh journey to notice). This really doesn't jib well
with non-dualist thunking or even dualist thunking either, since
there is no real way that one is holding a position or witnessing a
definite contrast (light vs dark). It's sort of like a cartoon
without the "flatness". My skills at painting (slow to progress) have
been somewhat indicative of this effect. I'd be curious as to what,
if anything at all, this Lisa Clark has to say, if you have a chance.
>
> Peace and Love


> Nina <murrkis@y...> wrote:
> Hello, Greg, Jason, Michael L. and all,
>
> This weekend, I am taking a workshop with Lisa Clark, who
> teaches Body Mind Centering. I'm enjoying getting her perspective
> on the things we are discussing.
>
> In yogasana, one learns that one must go down to go up. Lisa
> Clark is particularly adept at explaining how one meets the
> earth, engaging it, by "yielding" (language in quotes is from
> the BMC vocabulary). This is a sattvic state, the balance within
> contact. When one 'befriends' gravity and does not attempt to
> "prop" (rajasic resistance) against gravity or "collapse"
> (tamasic release) into gravity, then there may be felt a
> rebound of energy upwards through the body. Her way of practicing
> is such that she always finds her support first, such as the
> floor or the bolster, and her relation to gravity, and then
> builds the pose upwards along that rebounding energy.
>
> It was curious, however, to wonder where she might place her
> sense of 'center' (in fact, I might ask this question today).
> Is it at the source of gravity? In this case, she is placing
> it outside of her body. Or, is it within her body, perhaps
> behind the navel, which is something I might guess, knowing
> a bit more about the biomorphic developmental understandings
> of Body Mind Centering. (This reminds me of the starfish -
> a shape that we explored last year at her workshop - many
> asanas resemble this starfish expression - radiance from the
> center.) Quite possibly, there are multiple centers at
> work in the way she practices asana, but I suspect that
> only one is seen to be the 'source' of the asana.
>
> This illustrates how 'center' is movable, and more a matter
> of 'origin of work' or 'origin of perception'. Greg, it would
> seem that your center moved the moment you attempted to
> understand the perspective of the dustmote. My center, when
> practicing your levitation meditation, was very mobile -
> and depending on the location of it, my movement and perception
> of the world altered.
>
> This was the main reason it was curious to hear Lisa Clark talk
> about finding the ground/support first and then building the asana:
> while playing with the levitation meditation, I also
> played with finding that ground/support somewhere other than
> 'on the floor'...
>
> 'Origin of work' or 'origin of perception' might be ways of
> describing that. It reminds me of what Michael L. posted in
> his website dedicated to Awareness watching awareness. That
> is most definitely the sense one can get from even a mobile
> center within the levitation meditation.
(snip)

--- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
wrote:
> *v* Very key point, Freyja, about closing those eyes.
> Most of those rides are smoother and less exciting
> that a ride in a car with your eyes closed.
> At the science dome where they show the movies that
> curve all around the big dome shaped room, they had a
> film about roller coasters. The viewers are put in
> the position of being on the various coasters and in
> one also traveled as energy through a twisting tube
> of light, very much like the feeling of speed and
> position you feel when returning from a dream to
> waking and visa versa. The point is, though, I was
> never so nausious in my life than I was when that
> movie was over, and all I'd done was sit there and aim
> my eyes as if I were sitting in the coaster seats.
> It was alot of fun, though. I'd recommend it but do
> take your dramamine first!>>
>
>
> There was also one with a 180 screen,
> where there was the very real sensation of being
> suspended over a very large and deep
> canyon sitting in construction machinery
> type vehicles suspended from cables.
> But you werent enclosed or strapped in.
> It gave a feeling of flying because it all
> moved pretty fast.  It was so real that
> it feel somewhat scary, that because I
> wasn't strapped in,  I could fall.
>
> It was interesting to notice the switching
> back and forth of perception, from me
> sitting still in a theatre-type seat watching
> the movement(the world moving around me) to me
> actually in the movie, moving through the
> sky.
>
> ~~freyja

*v* Yes, I know that back and forth perception, too.
More obvious maybe in the theatre, it's also noticeable
when you're just talking a walk and one moment you're
all out there in the landscape and then you draw your
attention back to the one walking and then, you're
bored.

Same with falling off to sleep and noticing how
your attention literally falls and spreads out into a
virtual reality which, if you decide not to follow,
just smooths back away like the fizz on the top of
your soda.

In this virtual reality of life, I've noticed
that some people very much prefer the theatre seat
position because the way it makes life seem unreal guards
against suffering? I still prefer being all spread out
across the landscape, though. Sitting suspended in the
air in machinery sounds like lots of fun!