After reading the site extensively I did some searching through my
university library's journal article database. I came across the
following citation and abstract.

"Title:
     Ultrasound as a new method of male contraception.
Author(s):
     Fahim MS; Fahim Z; Harman J; Thompson I; Montie J; Hall DG
Source:
     Fertility And Sterility [Fertil Steril] 1977 Aug; Vol. 28 (8), pp.
823-31.
Publication Type:
     Journal Article
Language:
     English
Journal Information:
     Country of Publication: UNITED STATES NLM ID: 0372772 Publication
Model: Print Cited Medium: Print ISSN: 0015-0282 (Print) NLM ISO
Abbreviation: Fertil. Steril. Subsets: MEDLINE
MeSH Terms:
     Ultrasonics*
     Contraception/*methods
     Animals; Cats; Dogs; Haplorhini; Humans; Male; Rats; Seminiferous
Tubules/pathology; Spermatogenesis; Temperature
Abstract:
     Twenty male cats were treated once or twice with 1 watt/sq cm of
ultrasound for 10 minutes. Each of 24 male dogs received one to three
treatments with 1 watt/sq cm for 10 minutes. Another six dogs were
treated with 2 watts/sq cm for 15 minutes. Four Cebus apella monkeys
were treated with the same dosage as that used for the cats and dogs.
A dosage of 1 watt/sq cm for 10 minutes was also applied to four human
patients without the use of anesthetics, and no pain or side effects
were noted. In all treated animals as well as in human patients the
results indicate that ultrasound significantly suppresses
spermatogenesis according to the dosage and frequency of treatment,
without any effect on Leydig cells or blood testosterone levels.
Contributed Indexing:
     Indexing Agency: PIP Local ID #: 772012. Indexing Agency: POP
Local ID #: 00040593.
     Keywords: Animals, Laboratory*; Antibodies--analysis*; Biology;
Clinical Research; Contraception; Contraception Research*;
Evaluation*; Family Planning; Genitalia; Germ Cells; Human
Volunteers*; Immunity; Immunoglobulin Alterations; Immunologic
Factors; Male Contraception*; Physiology; Research Methodology;
Spermatozoa*; Ultrasonics*; Urogenital System
     Local Abstract: [PIP] Ultrasound was tested as a method of
sterilization in cats, dogs, monkeys, and humans, utilizing an
ultrasound machine manufactured by Whitewater Electronics specifically
for this research. 30 male cats were divided into 3 groups, 2
experimental and 1 control. The treated groups received 1 watt/sq cm
for 10 minutes once, or a 2nd time after 48 hours. Testicular biopsies
were made 60 days after treatment. 24 male dogs were divided into 3
groups receiving either 1,2, or 3 treatments within a 1-week interval
with 1 watt/sq cm for 10 minutes. Sperm counts were made for 5
consecutive weeks preceding ultrasound treatment and semen analyses
made weekly. 6 dogs were treated with 2 watts/sq cm for 15 minutes.
Antibodies to spermatozoa were determined by the Kibrick method. 4
South African monkeys were treated with 1 watt/sq cm for 10 minutes;
testicular biopsies were obtained 1 month before treatment and 60 days
after treatment. 1 watt/sq cm for 10 minutes. Testicular biopsies were
obtained 3 weeks before treatment and orchiectomies were performed 14
-17 days after treatment. In all treated animals and human patients,
ultrasound significantly suppresses spermatogenesis accoridng to the
dosage and frequency of treatment, without any effect on Leydig cells
or blood testosterone levels.
Entry Date(s):
     Date Created: 19770929 Date Completed: 19770929 Latest Revision:
20041117
Update Code:
     20071207
PMID:
     407106
"


I'm waiting to receive the article via interlibrary loan.

I didn't see this method of contraception examined in any previous
posts, and was wondering if anyone has followed up on this research?

hello,,,
please i have a report obout biological reason of failure of male oral
contraceptive development
plz can u help me ASAP

dear,..
nice email info.
but tell me what is price of this instrument,..from where i can get it..??
please reply with full addresses and references

regards

khawar


WE EXPLORE HIDDEN TREASURES OF EARTH


To: malecontraceptives@...: neillob11@...: Fri, 29 Feb
2008 22:56:40 +0000Subject: [malecontraceptives] Re: inter ureatha device




--- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "lamarr harding" <8012097247@...>
wrote:>> Just noticed http://malecontraception.googlepages.com> > The concept of
a catheter that reroutes ejaculate to the bladder while > plugging the penis. >
> I wonder about the comfort and stability durring sex but it's another > way of
thinking.>this sounds horrible, I'd sooner get an IVD then a one time use penis
plug, wouldn't a condom do in that case? it sounds like it can cause irritations
and damage to the urethra. hmmm... a intriguing idea just popped into my head,
make it hollow and combine that with the IVD, but in the tube that is inserted
into the urethra by a doctor...as of now I wouldn't use it.






_________________________________________________________________
Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "lamarr harding" <8012097247@...>
wrote:
>
> Just noticed http://malecontraception.googlepages.com
>
> The concept of a catheter that reroutes ejaculate to the bladder while
> plugging the penis.
>
> I wonder about the comfort and stability durring sex but it's another
> way of thinking.
>

this sounds horrible, I'd sooner get an IVD then a one time use penis plug,
wouldn't a
condom do in that case? it sounds like it can cause irritations and damage to
the urethra.
hmmm... a intriguing idea just popped into my head, make it hollow and combine
that with
the IVD, but in the tube that is inserted into the urethra by a doctor...

  as of now I wouldn't use it.

Hi and welcome!

> I am a biolgy student here at university and I thought I would give my
thoughts on male contraception.
My partner and I depend on my oral contraceptives.   While I know that
a male equivalent more than likely will not be readily available to us
in the immediate future, I still believe that shared pleasure=shared
responsibility.  Male contraception would also open doors for women
who for any reason cannot accept birth control hormones.  I think it
is particularly important for men who want to take responsibility for
contraception without permanent sterilization.

> Even though my future lies in medical research in ob-gyn--of which
contraception is a part--I think that expanding the horizons of male
contraception beyond barrier methods would be a gargantuan step
towards improving both male and female reproductive health.

I'm all for expanding choices too, but ther are a couple of large hurdles to
overcome. Firstly, the technology is a long way from usable. The male pill
in it's current form is experimental, and has more disadvantages than
advantages currently. The supressant to stop the testicles producing sperm
is testosterone, and this has serious side effects including gynomastia
(growing breasts), mood swings (yes, I know we do that anyway!) and an
increase in prostate cancer. Other methods currently fare no better.

There is also a large barrier that is limiting major research - namely
female acceptance. I've known women still insist on taking the pill even
though their husband has a vasectomy with confirmed sterility! My wife
wouldn't trust me to take the male pill, and she wouldn't rely on it anyway.
Her argument is that it would be her that got pregnant, so it's her that has
to take the responsibility for birth control. I don't think that this is
unusual, so the pharmacuetical companies think the market is limited, so
don't put too many resources into development.

But like you, I'd like to see more choices available.

David
www.vasectomy-information.com




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.7/1232 - Release Date: 18/01/2008
19:32

Hello.

I am a biolgy student here at university and I thought I would give my
thoughts on male contraception.
My partner and I depend on my oral contraceptives.   While I know that
a male equivalent more than likely will not be readily available to us
in the immediate future, I still believe that shared pleasure=shared
responsibility.  Male contraception would also open doors for women
who for any reason cannot accept birth control hormones.  I think it
is particularly important for men who want to take responsibility for
contraception without permanent sterilization.

Even though my future lies in medical research in ob-gyn--of which
contraception is a part--I think that expanding the horizons of male
contraception beyond barrier methods would be a gargantuan step
towards improving both male and female reproductive health.

Hello to everyone. I'd like to share my experience with you.

It's more than a year I started testicular heating suspending them in inguinal
canals. I've
become sterile after 2 months (last March). I've to say I'me very satisfied with
this
contraception method (i've avoided a vasectomy).
Initially, I was having problems keeping my testicles in the canals during the
day. Week
after week it has become less difficult and now my testes are always outside my
scrotum,
steady in the canals.
I will continue using this contraception method but, to be sincere, the only
problem I see
is that, after one year, my scrotum has become very small since its skin is
tighter than
before: now, if I try to move my testicles back in their original place, they
immediately go
up in the canals. Now this is very convenient for me, but it's a drawback to
consider.

Ask me questions if you need more infos... :)

Bye,

--- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "jp40177" <jp40177@...> wrote:
>
> Dear M,
>
> I did hot baths for more than 2 years.  I have posts in the
> archives.  I also played with the suspensory method that I found at
>
> http://www.puzzlepiece.org/bcontrol/malebc.html
>
> Also see message 175 to this group by Dr. Lissner, where she
> references the same web site.  I would read every message that Dr.
> Lissner has written to this group.
>
> I have read messages in this group that say that suspensories are not
> very effective.  But they might be a very useful complement to to
> extend the effectivenss of hot baths.  I would like to see someone
> try such a combination and provide results.
>
> The recent posts on electrical heaters are also interesting.
>
> jp
>
> --- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "appoggio_79"
> <appoggio_79@> wrote:
> >
> > Is there somebody who can share his experiences with me? I
> > n the meantime i've begun using testicular heating technique. I'm
> > keeping my testicles in my canals since one month. At the beginning
> > the feeling of not having testicles in their place was a bit
> strange,
> > but now I'm used to it. I return my testicles in their natural home
> > only when I practice sports (I do swimming and I don't want others
> to
> > ask where my balls are...). In january I'm going to do a sperm exam
> > to understand if I'm finally sterile.
> >
> > Bye,
> > M.
> >
> > --- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "appoggio_79"
> > <appoggio_79@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'd like to talk with someone who's trying testicular heating
> > > techniques. Is there somenone?
> > >
> > > Tanks,
> > > M.
> > >
> >
>

I, would love to learn more about malecontraceptives

Just noticed http://malecontraception.googlepages.com

The concept of a catheter that reroutes ejaculate to the bladder while
plugging the penis.

I wonder about the comfort and stability durring sex but it's another
way of thinking.

Actually, there is more information about options and equipment at MCIP's
site, in the heat section of the review paper:

http://www.newmalecontraception.org/heat.htm

Look for the sentence "For details on the types of tools available, click
here."

It ought to be a lot easier to use one of the chocolate warmers, fondue pots,
or wax warmers than to risk scorching oneself pouring hot water in.

Thanks for sharing your interesting experience.

- Elaine L.
    MCIP




**************************************
  See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry. I forgot to put the protocal up. The recommended method by Dr.
Vogeli is to immerse yourself in 116 degree water for 45 minutes a
day for 3 weeks. This should result in sterility for 6-18 months
depending (there are recorded incidents of the sterility lasting only
3 months. The urologist that I went to also said that spermatogenesis
could start back in as little as 2 months.)

According to literature, if the water is hotter, and the person can
sustain the entire 45 minutes a day for 45 days, the amount of time
one is steril should increse. But, to increase the heat more than 116
degrees is not safe. Consider that according to officials having any
body part in water that is 120 degrees for 5 minutes will cause a
third degree burn, thus increasing the heat for the 45 minutes even
at a degree will most probably cause significant burns, e.g. my case
with 117 degrees for a short period and the remaining scald.

here's a link for some burn info:
http://www.burnsurgery.com/Documents/scalds_burning_issue.doc

As for effect on libido--no drop in libido. During the treatment, I
was in a sexual relationship and our sex life was just as good if not
better than before. After the treatment, it was significantly better.
I know it is rather cliche, but the fact that I knew that I was
infertile with a semen analysis to back it, caused me to feel more
confident and focused while having intercourse which caused her
arousal to increase with a reciprocating affect on me.

Since I did not have a pre-treatment semen analysis, and since the
mass population wants proof that it is reversible, I decided not to
do the treatment every month intermittently (one full week every
month following the first full three week treatment), and have
another semen analysis in few months...I'll keep you posted.

And in reference to the constriction of the blood vessels to reduce
time, I don't think so. The treatment stops spermatogenesis, which
happens in your testicles, not in your vas deferans or any vessel for
that matter. Further, I don't think that an increase in temperature
could shorten time spent in the sitz bath, because, like a turkey in
an oven or a hamburger on a grill, increasing the heat will only burn
the outside but not cook the inside; which is essentially what you
are doing.

I hope that helps out. If you got any other questions, feel free to
contact me or post on the forum. Take care.

--- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "cutvas" <cutvas@...>
wrote:
>
> Very interesting results. Can you repeat what you think is supposed
to
> be the optimum temperature(s) and time(s) for acheiving sterility?
>
> Any effect on your libido that you can notice?
>
> Are you going to continue and have more sperm tests taken?
>
> Since the body would try to "cool" the testical through blood flow
do
> you think slight restriction of blood flow might increase the
heating
> effect quicker and reduce the treatment time?
>
> cutvas
>

Are you sure you didn't do any permanent damage? I thought the idea
was to avoid scorching yourself during this process. Did you do an
analysis before doing this and did it show normal results? Will you be
doing another analysis after letting yourself recover?

Thanks,
travis
--- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "Isara"
<site_beyond_site@...> wrote:
>
> Day 1
>
> Items:
> I) Bought sitz bath
>
> Procedure:
> 1) Didn't have nor know of all the necessary equipment.
>
> Results:
> A) My bottom (genitals, buttocks, and upper thighs) couldn't endure
> entire 45 minutes.
>  a) Yet, my hand could endure it; was very hot but tolerable.
>
> Day 2-3
>
> Items:
> I) Got hot plate
> II) Got pot for water and hot plate.
> III) Got pitcher for pouring water from hot pot to pitcher to sitz
> bath bag.
>
> Procedure:
> 1) Filled sitz bath with lukewarm water from my bathroom faucet.
> 2) Filled pot of water with hot water
> 3) Set pot of water on hot plate.
> 4) When water was smoking I poured it into pitcher.
> 5) From pitcher into sitz bath bag.
> 6) Got into sitz bath.
> 7) Let the increased temperature water into sitz bath until
> intolerable.
>
> A) First immersion was at a very tolerable temperature.
> B) Made myself endure the entire 45 as hot as I could tolerate,
> shifting from painfully hot to just above comfortably hot.
>
> Day 4-6
>
> Items:
> I) Got medical thermometer that went to 108 degrees.
> II) Noticing that my scrotum could tolerate significantly higher
> temperatures than my things, which also have to be immersed in a sitz
> bath, I created a lid for my sitz bath with a hole cut out in the
> center such that only my testicles could be immersed. I used a lid
> from a large plastic container that I bought at Wal-mart for 1$. It
> worked perfectly.
>
> Procedure:
> 1) Same procedure as above on days 2-3, but with thermometer and sitz
> bath lid.
>
> -Since the thermometer did not have the ability to register 116
> degrees, I let it  rise until it read "HI." I found that if the
> water is moderately hot, then it would  jump numbers 6 times until it
> reached hot. Then, as it became hotter, it would jump  numbers 4
> times, then 3 at the hottest. Noticing that, I kept it at 3-4 jumps
> (crude  and inaccurate, but effective nonetheless).
>
> Results:
> A) Could get the temperatures significantly higher. Thus, I tried to
> push myself to the highest temperature possible--the temp with the
> least amount of jumps to "HI."
>
> Day 7
> A) Water became too hot and the next morning my scrotum was in pain.
> I thought I had scalded myself, but there was no visible sign of any
> scalding. Nonetheless, I put vasoline on the painful area throughout
> the day and it was fine by the end of the night--when I did my sitz
> bath sitting.
>
>
> Day 8-15
> I) I finally bought a cooking thermometer at Linens n Things for 12
> dollars.
>
> 1) I measured the water before I sat in it, starting at 100-103
> degrees and of course ending up at 116-117.
>
> Day 16
> Results:
> A) While not paying attention and letting the water into the sitz
> bath I mildly scorched my scrotum. Also, I measured it against my
> medical thermometer and the medical thermometer read a degree higher
> every now and then. I also checked it against my own body
> temperature, and the cooking thermometer would read anywhere from
> 99.0-96.8, which tells me that it was slightly innaccurate.
>
> B) It was decent the next day, slightly tender, but nothing to
> complain about.
>
> Day 19
> A) Severly scorched my scrotum because I was not paying attention to
> the thermometer while I was letting in the very hot water from the
> sitz bath bag into the sitz bath.
>
> B) It was red, raw, and slightly blistered. It was painful.
>
> Day 20-22
>
> A) Wasn't painful even with the blister (actually the hot water made
> it feel better), but the blister didn't heal until I stopped the
> treatment.
>
> Day 25
>
> After both three days of abstinence and stopping the sitz wet heat
> method, I went for a sperm analysis. The results and comparisons of
> the World Health Organization (WHO) standards:
>
> 1) Sperm count per milliliter:
>  Average = above 20 millions/ml
>  Infertile = less than 20 million/ml
>  Mine = less than 1.1 million/ml
> 2) Net sperm count milliliter
>  Average = above 40 million
>  Infertile less than 40 million/ml
>  Mine = less than 5.6 million
> 3) Net volume of semen
>  Average = 2ml
>  Mine = 4ml
> 4) Sperm motility rates:
>  A) Rapid motility
> 	 Average = 25% or more
> 	 Mine = 0%
>  B) Normal motility
> 	 Average = 30% or more
> 	 Mine = less than 8%
>  C) Low motility
> 	 Average = 50% or more
> 	 Mine = Less than 4%
>  D) No motility
> 	 Average = 0%
> 	 Mine = 88%
>  E) Total motile sperm
> 	 Average = above 20%
> 	 Mine = .4 million
>
> Summary:
> After a lot of trial and error, which if there had been adequate
> information on the specifics I could have avoided, these are my final
> results.
>
> For Items:
> I) Get a cooking thermometer first. Go to any cooking store or a
> household appliance store and they should have them (i.e. linens and
> things); though wal-mart and target both do not carry it in store,
> but do on line. Buy better brand even if it costs a little more
> money, the accuracy is extremely important.
>

Very interesting results. Can you repeat what you think is supposed to
be the optimum temperature(s) and time(s) for acheiving sterility?

Any effect on your libido that you can notice?

Are you going to continue and have more sperm tests taken?

Since the body would try to "cool" the testical through blood flow do
you think slight restriction of blood flow might increase the heating
effect quicker and reduce the treatment time?

cutvas

Day 1

Items:
I) Bought sitz bath

Procedure:
1) Didn't have nor know of all the necessary equipment.

Results:
A) My bottom (genitals, buttocks, and upper thighs) couldn't endure
entire 45 minutes.
	 a) Yet, my hand could endure it; was very hot but tolerable.

Day 2-3

Items:
I) Got hot plate
II) Got pot for water and hot plate.
III) Got pitcher for pouring water from hot pot to pitcher to sitz
bath bag.

Procedure:
1) Filled sitz bath with lukewarm water from my bathroom faucet.
2) Filled pot of water with hot water
3) Set pot of water on hot plate.
4) When water was smoking I poured it into pitcher.
5) From pitcher into sitz bath bag.
6) Got into sitz bath.
7) Let the increased temperature water into sitz bath until
intolerable.

A) First immersion was at a very tolerable temperature.
B) Made myself endure the entire 45 as hot as I could tolerate,
shifting from painfully hot to just above comfortably hot.

Day 4-6

Items:
I) Got medical thermometer that went to 108 degrees.
II) Noticing that my scrotum could tolerate significantly higher
temperatures than my things, which also have to be immersed in a sitz
bath, I created a lid for my sitz bath with a hole cut out in the
center such that only my testicles could be immersed. I used a lid
from a large plastic container that I bought at Wal-mart for 1$. It
worked perfectly.

Procedure:
1) Same procedure as above on days 2-3, but with thermometer and sitz
bath lid.

-Since the thermometer did not have the ability to register 116
degrees, I let it  rise until it read "HI." I found that if the
water is moderately hot, then it would  jump numbers 6 times until it
reached hot. Then, as it became hotter, it would jump  numbers 4
times, then 3 at the hottest. Noticing that, I kept it at 3-4 jumps
(crude  and inaccurate, but effective nonetheless).

Results:
A) Could get the temperatures significantly higher. Thus, I tried to
push myself to the highest temperature possible--the temp with the
least amount of jumps to "HI."

Day 7
A) Water became too hot and the next morning my scrotum was in pain.
I thought I had scalded myself, but there was no visible sign of any
scalding. Nonetheless, I put vasoline on the painful area throughout
the day and it was fine by the end of the night--when I did my sitz
bath sitting.


Day 8-15
I) I finally bought a cooking thermometer at Linens n Things for 12
dollars.

1) I measured the water before I sat in it, starting at 100-103
degrees and of course ending up at 116-117.

Day 16
Results:
A) While not paying attention and letting the water into the sitz
bath I mildly scorched my scrotum. Also, I measured it against my
medical thermometer and the medical thermometer read a degree higher
every now and then. I also checked it against my own body
temperature, and the cooking thermometer would read anywhere from
99.0-96.8, which tells me that it was slightly innaccurate.

B) It was decent the next day, slightly tender, but nothing to
complain about.

Day 19
A) Severly scorched my scrotum because I was not paying attention to
the thermometer while I was letting in the very hot water from the
sitz bath bag into the sitz bath.

B) It was red, raw, and slightly blistered. It was painful.

Day 20-22

A) Wasn't painful even with the blister (actually the hot water made
it feel better), but the blister didn't heal until I stopped the
treatment.

Day 25

After both three days of abstinence and stopping the sitz wet heat
method, I went for a sperm analysis. The results and comparisons of
the World Health Organization (WHO) standards:

1) Sperm count per milliliter:
	 Average = above 20 millions/ml
	 Infertile = less than 20 million/ml
	 Mine = less than 1.1 million/ml
2) Net sperm count milliliter
	 Average = above 40 million
	 Infertile less than 40 million/ml
	 Mine = less than 5.6 million
3) Net volume of semen
	 Average = 2ml
	 Mine = 4ml
4) Sperm motility rates:
	 A) Rapid motility
		 Average = 25% or more
		 Mine = 0%
	 B) Normal motility
		 Average = 30% or more
		 Mine = less than 8%
	 C) Low motility
		 Average = 50% or more
		 Mine = Less than 4%
	 D) No motility
		 Average = 0%
		 Mine = 88%
	 E) Total motile sperm
		 Average = above 20%
		 Mine = .4 million

Summary:
After a lot of trial and error, which if there had been adequate
information on the specifics I could have avoided, these are my final
results.

For Items:
I) Get a cooking thermometer first. Go to any cooking store or a
household appliance store and they should have them (i.e. linens and
things); though wal-mart and target both do not carry it in store,
but do on line. Buy better brand even if it costs a little more
money, the accuracy is extremely important.

To all those of you who live in the U.S.,

This week congressional subcommittees are deciding how much to write in next
year's budget for contraceptive research at the U.S. Agency for International
Development.   The chief of USAID was trying to get USAID out of the
contraceptive development business for political reasons, which would be
catastrophic;
we have to write to make sure the subcommittee members know the public
supports this research.

There's a web-form set up on MaleContraceptives.org, so it's easy (link
below).   Please take two minutes to do this today or tomorrow.

Thanks,

Elaine L.
Director, MCIP
THE LINK:         http://www.malecontraceptives.org/funding.php

=============================================================
=============================================================
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------














**************************************
  See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Croom" <elcroom@...> wrote:
>
> I used condoms.  I am glad I do not have to use them anymore. However, I
> had kids rather quickly when we planned on having kids, so it looks like
> the condoms were working.
> > Asking for your experience about the best male contraceptives.
> >
> >
>
Yes that is a good Question. I have read about all kinds of methods,
chemical , heat , and of cause injections like depo-provera and
androcure, that essentially cuts donw the Testosteron completely as
far as the testicles are concererned, But not being an expert with
medical knowledde I have been wondering if ELECTRONIC maddage pulsing
with a TENS, also called EMS and STIM, will have an effect, maybe even
better that heat. I don't like chemicals, and leaving the Testicles to
make some Testosteron to keep healthu or feeling better without HRT
maybe the STIMMING will recuce the sexual energy so called and
essentially provide a sort of contraseption. I asked that question
similar and was emmediatelu "banned" from the Eunuch Archives forum so
  these areas of Contraseption, Eunuchism, etc do overlap but is not
looked at seriously. If You come across any infromation on if STIMMING
can provide Contrasectption in some way - please let me know.
N3RF@...  N3RF1

I used condoms.  I am glad I do not have to use them anymore. However, I
had kids rather quickly when we planned on having kids, so it looks like
the condoms were working.
> Asking for your experience about the best male contraceptives.
>
>

Asking for your experience about the best male contraceptives.

--- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "Johan K V Svanholm"
<n3rf@...> wrote:
>
> I like to ask the contraceptivfe group , besides sterility sought
what methods - reduce the Testosteron level ??
> I am using TENS and I am thinking it also reduces -some people call
the "sexual Energy" and I would like to know if it also makes a man
"sterile" and specifically - does it reduce the T - level. The goal in
my mind is to bring it down with some low cost method ? to Pre-Puperty
T level and keep it there ? for some time ? or permanently.
> When You talk chemical or surgical Castration you spend lots of
money and also have to supplement the male with HTL (hormonal
supplements later) that also cost  money. So with Your all effort in
Conceptive technology, how does it answer my questions and what are
the overlap if You also look at the Castration aspect - reversible or
not ??
> Regards and best wishes from  Johan-in-Washington N3RF
>
>
> Johan K V Svanholm, N3RF, Chm. SVANHOLM RESEARCH LABORATORIES and
Loomis Scientific Research Foundation (both N-P in D.C.).
> Post Office Box 81, Washington, D.C. 20044, U. S. A. Contact me best
by Email n3rf@... and Tel 011- -202-352-5252
>
> My Web Sites are http://n3rf.tripod.com Some legal work of mine
http://n3rf.home.netcom.com on US Wireless Radio History (1864-1874) ,
> and http://www.waynegreen.com , http://www.natural-immunogenics.com
>
> My abbreviated background and interests are listed below: Worked in
the Microwave Branch of LM Ericson. Worked on Missile Electronics.
> at APL of Johns Hopkins University and worked in the Micro Min
Branch at the Harry Diamond Laboratory of the US Army Material Command
and on
> Microwave and Pulse Amplifiers at the Naval Ordnance Laboratory Went
to sea as Radio and Electronics Officer on 25 ships in the 90's. Founder
> and Chairman of Svanholm Research Laboratories and took over Loomis
Scientific Research Foundation in 1970 . A Registered Professional
Engineer
> in DC, a Notary MD.and Sr Member IEEE. Member of American Relay
League. A licensed Radio Amateur since 1947 with a current call of
N3RF, Also licensed V73RF,
> Graduate study at University of Stockholm, University of Maryland,
and the Catholic University; /JSm
>
> PS. This DISCLAIMER of liability applies to any damages or injury
caused by any failure of performance, error, omission,
interruption,deletion, defect,
> delay in operation or transmission. computer virus, communication
line failure, theft or destruction or unauthorized access to,
alteration of, or
> use of record, whether for breach of contract, tortious behavior,
negligence, or under any other cause of action./JSm Chm SRL and LSRF.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Since I have not heard anything from You "EXPERTS" and I still want to
know - what really goes on in the "reproductive" system, I still
pursue this question: Does using Electro Sex called STIMMING reduce
the "Sexual; Energy" also called Testosterons some and also the Sperm
Count ". The Heating method I understand does reuce the sperm cout
after a long and lengthy heat - process - weeks and months.

Castration by Chemical or surgical means, the chemical Androcure and
Depo-Provera -injectioons is reversable for a while but does reduce
the T. level to what is called a pre-puberty level. The Surgical does
it all at once and remains permanent. The testosteron then comes from
anothe gland source (peputiary - I thinkg). Now in either of these two
types HRT is needed to keep the person (now call eunuch) to a proper
level of T. If there was a way to reduce it balls T. level without
getting them done altogether, and getting the T. Level as well as the
Sperm Count down to "safe" levels, maybe the Heat and the STIMMING
will work similarly, and if someone knows this, the STIMMING (using a
TENS unit ont he balls on a regular basis, will - my guessing- be
working similarly without cutting the balls off entirely. So my
question is, does HEAT and STIMMING using a TENS unit both reduce the
Testosteron level - how much and - is it reversable - after what time
and what does it do - how fast will it reduce the T. level ?? THe heat
methode takes an awfully long time and I have still no clue if it also
causes a reduction in the T. level ??? What do You experts sau ???

These are overlapping fields - contraceptives and castration - but the
knowledge base should be able to cover all aspects even it they
overlap ..Hi   Write me an email alsp.(no spellcheck-sorry)
N3RF@...   N3RF

Hi,

Some of that data had become out of date: the new data, and new links,
can be found at MCIP's site in the heat methods section of the new
(2006) version of the paper:

http://www.newmalecontraception.org/heat.htm

Also note that there is a link within the heat section for a pop-up
box about different devices that can be used.

At the bottom of this message I'll post the old information, just for
reference; please be aware that it is from 2001 and 1993, and the most
current information is at MCIP's website and MaleContraceptives.org.

Elaine L.
Director, MCIP

--- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Tripper"
<site_beyond_site@...> wrote:
>
> There was a link commonly referenced in these posts, whereby the "do
> it yourselfers" can elicit more information on various means,
> cautions, possible repercussions, etc., of male contraception if they
> so desire. The link was:
>
> http://www.gumption.org/mcip/paper.html
>
> I attempted to connect to the link, but it simply sends me to the new
> mcip (male contraception information project) site with limited
> information on the cautions and hazards of attempting at home methods
> of male contraception. It would be most appreciated if someone could
> either 1) post the new link to that page, or 2) post the information
> on that page on this message board. This would be a tremendous help
> to me in particular because I am on my 19th day of 116 degree hot
> baths, and I would like to know the possible repercussions. I've
> found some new data from Harvard that both affirm and negate the
> efficacy of hot baths, yet I would appreciate the old data from the
> other page as well. Here's the link to that paper for those of you
> whom are curious:
>
> http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/reprint/20/2/189.pdf

===================================================
[OLD "HELPFUL HINTS" PAGE ON HEAT METHODS]

Helpful Hints


Heat Method Hints

Wet heat and artificial cryptorchidism.

Wet heat and artificial cryptorchidism have received a lot of
interest, as they appear to be the only new methods which are ready to
use without waiting for the scientific establishment. If you want to
use them, though, you should be aware that although they can be good
longer-term methods, at this point they are pretty expensive and
inconvenient as short-term methods. Much of the time committment and
expense is in the first year, so if you think you want to use the
methods for more than a year, it may make sense.

To use the methods, you must first read up to make sure that you're
making a fully informed choice. This is absolutely crucial.  Don't
make yourself a guinea pig without knowing exactly what you're getting
into and what chances you're taking!

Second, it would then help to have a supportive doctor if you don't
already. Third, for wet heat you'll have to decide whether you want an
expensive gadget that maintains the water temperature for you .
Fourth, you will need monthly sperm checks for the first year (which
at $40-60 a month are about twice as expensive as the Pill). You'll
also need to use backup contraception for the first six month cycle,
which may make the whole enterprise not seem worth doing! Heat methods
have been very successful in the small studies which have been done,
but the above precautions must be taken to make sure that you don't
become the unhappy exception to the rule.  Click here if you would
like details on these steps.

As (through all of our efforts) heat methods become better studied and
publicized, some of these things will become simpler. Until then,
however, if you decide to try heat methods, know what you are getting
into! If you were looking for a simple method of contraception right
away, turn your energy towards political action and encouraging research.

Ultrasound
Until it has been studied further, please do not attempt to use the
ultrasound method yourself. It is too easy to mess yourself up with it
if you don't know all the details. If you're interested in this method
or any of the methods other than no-scalpel vasectomy, wet heat or
artificial cryptorchidism, see the following section on political
action and how to encourage research.

If you want to create political action:

* The SMA / Risug method in particular is very close to development,
but it won't be available outside of India anytime soon unless there
is public pressure.

* Talk about the methods. Tell a friend. Tell friends about this site
and www.malecontraceptives.org.

* Tell your doctor and other health care providers. Depending on how
much you feel comfortable doing, ask them to spread the word at their
clinics or to other health care providers they know.

* Use your imagination! Spread the word in any way you can think of.

* Most of all, go to www.malecontraceptives.org.  Sign up and get
involved!

=================================================

Additional resources/reading: Nonhormonal Male Contraception
Heat methods
© Elaine A. L - s.s.n.e.r, July 1991

Heat methods: Papers published 1923-1959

Fukui, N. On a hitherto unknown action of heat ray on testicles. Japan
Med World 1923:3 p.27.
Fukui, N. Action of body temperature on the testicle. Japan Med World
1923:3 p.160.
Moore, Carl R. Properties of the gonads as controllers of somatic and
psychical characteristics. Series of articles. AmJAnatomy 1924:34:2 p.269.
Macleod, John and Robert S. Hotchkiss. The effect of hyperprexia upon
spermatazoa counts in men. Journal unknown. May 1941 vol.28 p.780.
Moore, Carl R. Experimental studies on the male reproductive system.
JUrology 1951:65:4 p.497.
Watanabe, Akira. The effect of heat on the human spermatogenesis.
KyushuJMedSci 1959:10 p.101.

Heat methods: papers published 1960 and later

Brindley, G. S. Deep scrotal temperature and the effect on it of
clothing air temperature, activity, posture and papraplegia.
BritJUrology 1982:54 p.49.
McConnell, Timothy R. and Wayne E. Sinning. Exercise and temperature
effects on human sperm production and testosterone levels. Med&Science
in Sports&Exercise 1984:16:1 p. 51.
Procope, Berndt-Johan. Effect of repeated increase of body temperature
on human sperm cells. IntJFertil 1965:10:4 p.333.
Zorgniotti, Adrian W. Elevated intrascrotal temperature. I: a
hypothesis for poor semen in infertile men. BullNYAcadMed 1982:58:6 p.
535.
Lazarus, Barry A. and Adrian W. Zorgniotti. Thermoregulation of the
human testis. FertSteril 1975:26:8 p. 757.
VanZyl, J. A. A review of the male factor in 231 infertile couples.
SAfricanJObstetGynaecol 1972:10 p.17.
Zorgniotti, A. W. and A. I. Sealfon. Measurement of intrascrotal
temperature in normal and subfertile men.. JReprodFert 198:82 p.563.
Poland, Marilyn L. et al. Variation of semen measures within normal
men. FertSteril 1985:44:3 p.396.
Editors. Ultrasound exposure decreases sperm production in men,
animals. JAMA 1976:235:22 p.2375.  This article includes a photo.
Sophia Smith Collection, Smith College, Northampton, Massachusetts
01063. Write for their list of Martha Voegli's papers.
Abadir, R. et al. Comparative effect of x-ray and ultrasound...
ArchivesAndrol 1980:4 p.363.

	 These papers are extra reading.  Between the papers listed in the
references section of my paper, these papers, and the references in
these papers, one could know just about all that has been published
about heat methods. [NOTE: AS OF 1991; FOR HISTORICAL PURPOSES]

===============================
EXCERPTS OF LETTER FROM 1993

Dear ------,

	 The name of the company which makes the hot water baths is Grimm
Scientific Industries.  You can write (or call- 1-800-223-5395)  Joe
Grimm and ask for their information booklet on ParaTherm, their
portable paraffin baths.  If you want, you can tell him that you were
referred by the woman who called a year or so ago about male
contraception and that you are interested in the bath that can be set
at 116 degrees at the factory.  Ask him if it's the personal or
clinical model- I'm not sure.  It would be good to know, because
there's a price difference ($139 versus $179).  (Paraffin baths can be
used with water instead of paraffin- in fact they use water to
calibrate them at the factory.  You wouldn't want to use paraffin
because the increased temperature [125-135 degrees instead of 116
degrees] could possibly interfere with testosterone production).  It's
good that you've tried baths at home to make sure the temperature is
comfortable first before considering shelling out this kind of money.

	 Here's a checklist of other things to do before using the method:

	 • Look up the Fertility and Sterility article by Kandeel and
Swerdloff.  Xerox it so that either you or any doctor you choose (or
both) can read it.

	 • Write to Curator, Sophia Smith Collection, Smith College,
Northampton MA 01063 and ask for the Voegeli article by name.  They
seem to be pretty prompt about sending stuff.  This article details
Dr. Voegeli's experience with the method.

	 • Read as many of the other articles as necessary to feel like you
know what you're getting into.  Examples: Robinson, Rock, Watanabe, Corea.

	 • Reread the precautions in the recent information sheet that I sent
and the first one from back in February.

	 • Talk about and agree upon what you would do in the case of an
unintended pregnancy.

	 • It would also be good to get a sperm count check before you start
so you know whether you're starting out with an especially high sperm
count.  If you are, this might not be the best method for you, since
it might take extra baths to acheive infertility.  Since you didn't
know about this, my basic advice is to be extra-scrupulous about
getting and paying attention to sperm counts the first two six-month
cycles.  In the category of continued advice, I suggest taking nothing
for granted, since you are being pioneers.  Although the method has
been successful in the past, please don't trust anything you don't see
with your own eyes!  That is why I recommend backup contraception for
at least the first six-month cycle and monthly sperm counts for at
least the first two six-month cycles.  This can't be emphasized
enough.  Heat has a great track record from all the studies.  However,
I do know of a guy who used it without backup contraception and
frequent enough sperm checks and ended up with a pregnancy after three
or four months.  This cautionary story is to illustrate the importance
of sperm counts (especially since you weren't able to get one before
starting), backup contraception, and a strong and clear agreement on
what you would do in the case of an unintended pregnancy after
stopping backup contraception.

	 Regarding sperm count checks: I wanted to get an idea of prices
recently and so did some calling to listings under "Clinics" in the
Yellow Pages.  Prices vary quite a bit, and not all centers do the
tests.  It's important to go to a place that will tell you motility
and percentage of abnormal forms in addition to the actual count.  To
say that the method is working, I would say that your figures should
be less than 10 million/ml count, under 40% motility, and a high
percentage of abnormal forms every test.  Translated, that means you
won't have many sperm, most of them won't be going anywhere, and most
of the ones that are will be going in circles.  You might also see
what figures your doctor is comfortable with.

	 So, does that sound like a drag yet?!  I think it can be a good
long-term method when it works out for people, but it definitely takes
a large investment of time, energy and caution up front.  It sounds
like you're pretty dedicated and that you will do what it takes to
find out if the method is right for you.  If you continue with the
method, or even if you don't, I would love to hear an update on what
turns out.  Best wishes for a careful and satisfying experience.

[END OF 1993 INFORMATION]

There was a link commonly referenced in these posts, whereby the "do
it yourselfers" can elicit more information on various means,
cautions, possible repercussions, etc., of male contraception if they
so desire. The link was:

http://www.gumption.org/mcip/paper.html

I attempted to connect to the link, but it simply sends me to the new
mcip (male contraception information project) site with limited
information on the cautions and hazards of attempting at home methods
of male contraception. It would be most appreciated if someone could
either 1) post the new link to that page, or 2) post the information
on that page on this message board. This would be a tremendous help
to me in particular because I am on my 19th day of 116 degree hot
baths, and I would like to know the possible repercussions. I've
found some new data from Harvard that both affirm and negate the
efficacy of hot baths, yet I would appreciate the old data from the
other page as well. Here's the link to that paper for those of you
whom are curious:

http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/reprint/20/2/189.pdf

I will post the story/methodology/results of my experimentation when
when it is completed as well. Thank you so much. And take care all.

I like to ask the contraceptivfe group , besides sterility sought what methods -
reduce the Testosteron level ??
I am using TENS and I am thinking it also reduces -some people call the "sexual
Energy" and I would like to know if it also makes a man "sterile" and
specifically - does it reduce the T - level. The goal in my mind is to bring it
down with some low cost method ? to Pre-Puperty T level and keep it there ? for
some time ? or permanently.
When You talk chemical or surgical Castration you spend lots of money and also
have to supplement the male with HTL (hormonal supplements later) that also cost
money. So with Your all effort in Conceptive technology, how does it answer my
questions and what are the overlap if You also look at the Castration aspect -
reversible or not ??
Regards and best wishes from  Johan-in-Washington N3RF


Johan K V Svanholm, N3RF, Chm. SVANHOLM RESEARCH LABORATORIES and Loomis
Scientific Research Foundation (both N-P in D.C.).
Post Office Box 81, Washington, D.C. 20044, U. S. A. Contact me best by Email
n3rf@... and Tel 011- -202-352-5252

My Web Sites are http://n3rf.tripod.com Some legal work of mine
http://n3rf.home.netcom.com on US Wireless Radio History (1864-1874) ,
and http://www.waynegreen.com , http://www.natural-immunogenics.com

My abbreviated background and interests are listed below: Worked in the
Microwave Branch of LM Ericson. Worked on Missile Electronics.
at APL of Johns Hopkins University and worked in the Micro Min Branch at the
Harry Diamond Laboratory of the US Army Material Command and on
Microwave and Pulse Amplifiers at the Naval Ordnance Laboratory Went to sea as
Radio and Electronics Officer on 25 ships in the 90's. Founder
and Chairman of Svanholm Research Laboratories and took over Loomis Scientific
Research Foundation in 1970 . A Registered Professional Engineer
in DC, a Notary MD.and Sr Member IEEE. Member of American Relay League. A
licensed Radio Amateur since 1947 with a current call of N3RF, Also licensed
V73RF,
Graduate study at University of Stockholm, University of Maryland, and the
Catholic University; /JSm

PS. This DISCLAIMER of liability applies to any damages or injury caused by any
failure of performance, error, omission, interruption,deletion, defect,
delay in operation or transmission. computer virus, communication line failure,
theft or destruction or unauthorized access to, alteration of, or
use of record, whether for breach of contract, tortious behavior, negligence, or
under any other cause of action./JSm Chm SRL and LSRF.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Why do you say suspensory technique is not effective? I'm now having
sex without "protections" and my wife is not pregnant (I'm already
father).
The only problem is keeping testicles "suspended" al the time. Have
you had the same problems?

Thanks,
M

--- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "jp40177" <jp40177@...>
wrote:
>
> Dear M,
>
> I did hot baths for more than 2 years.  I have posts in the
> archives.  I also played with the suspensory method that I found at
>
> http://www.puzzlepiece.org/bcontrol/malebc.html
>
> Also see message 175 to this group by Dr. Lissner, where she
> references the same web site.  I would read every message that Dr.
> Lissner has written to this group.
>
> I have read messages in this group that say that suspensories are
not
> very effective.  But they might be a very useful complement to to
> extend the effectivenss of hot baths.  I would like to see someone
> try such a combination and provide results.
>
> The recent posts on electrical heaters are also interesting.
>
> jp
>
> --- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "appoggio_79"
> <appoggio_79@> wrote:
> >
> > Is there somebody who can share his experiences with me? I
> > n the meantime i've begun using testicular heating technique. I'm
> > keeping my testicles in my canals since one month. At the
beginning
> > the feeling of not having testicles in their place was a bit
> strange,
> > but now I'm used to it. I return my testicles in their natural
home
> > only when I practice sports (I do swimming and I don't want
others
> to
> > ask where my balls are...). In january I'm going to do a sperm
exam
> > to understand if I'm finally sterile.
> >
> > Bye,
> > M.
> >
> > --- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "appoggio_79"
> > <appoggio_79@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'd like to talk with someone who's trying testicular heating
> > > techniques. Is there somenone?
> > >
> > > Tanks,
> > > M.
> > >
> >
>

Dear M,

I did hot baths for more than 2 years.  I have posts in the
archives.  I also played with the suspensory method that I found at

http://www.puzzlepiece.org/bcontrol/malebc.html

Also see message 175 to this group by Dr. Lissner, where she
references the same web site.  I would read every message that Dr.
Lissner has written to this group.

I have read messages in this group that say that suspensories are not
very effective.  But they might be a very useful complement to to
extend the effectivenss of hot baths.  I would like to see someone
try such a combination and provide results.

The recent posts on electrical heaters are also interesting.

jp

--- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "appoggio_79"
<appoggio_79@...> wrote:
>
> Is there somebody who can share his experiences with me? I
> n the meantime i've begun using testicular heating technique. I'm
> keeping my testicles in my canals since one month. At the beginning
> the feeling of not having testicles in their place was a bit
strange,
> but now I'm used to it. I return my testicles in their natural home
> only when I practice sports (I do swimming and I don't want others
to
> ask where my balls are...). In january I'm going to do a sperm exam
> to understand if I'm finally sterile.
>
> Bye,
> M.
>
> --- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "appoggio_79"
> <appoggio_79@> wrote:
> >
> > I'd like to talk with someone who's trying testicular heating
> > techniques. Is there somenone?
> >
> > Tanks,
> > M.
> >
>

--- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "brent73999"
<brent73999@...> wrote:
>
> Does anybody have any info on a patented testicular heating sac
> device? I've been searching for more info or a website to possibly
> purchase the device but can only find tidbits of info.  A patent
> search yeilded nothing.  I know it's available somewhere.  Can anybody
> help?
>

I have found a heating device at www.hotronic.com that may work well
for testicular heating.  The M3 and M4 models have a small heating
element and a rechargeable battery pack.  It is unlike other heating
garments in that it is stripped down and shouldn't be too difficult to
apply to the testicles.

Someone that is more experienced with the heating methods, take a look
and see if this has any potential.  The downside is that it is fairly
expensive.  Still, I think it would be much better than spending all
that time taking hot baths.

That has worked - difficultly to suffer fever... Also there are no
warranties!

--- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "brent73999"
<brent73999@...> wrote:
>
> Does anybody have any info on a patented testicular heating sac
> device? I've been searching for more info or a website to possibly
> purchase the device but can only find tidbits of info.  A patent
> search yeilded nothing.  I know it's available somewhere.  Can anybody
> help?
>

I have located a heating device that might work.  Check out the M3 and
M4 setups at www.hotronic.com  They contain a circular heating element
and a small rechargeable battery pack.  It also has adjustable
temperature settings.  In contrast with other heating garments, this
one is just a bare heater that could probably be put anywhere.

I am not experienced with the use of testicular heating.  Would
someone that is experienced give there opinion on the potential of the
Hotronic heater?

I've heard and read that the practice of binding one's testicles
before intercourse was a method used by men in India. I've also heard
from some college sex educators that this works due to the fact that
the testicles need to rise up for the sperm to travel into the vas
deferens. Has anyone heard this as well? Has anyone tried it?

Thanks,

Travis

Undescended testes are linked to higher rates of testicular cancer. There
are not any studies about what you are doing that I know about, but there
could be a similar risk.  Even if the risk does not increase, testes can
become cancerous. If you are going to do this for a long time, at least
make sure you take them out periodically and check them to make sure they
are not developing any strange lumps, nodules...

> Is there somebody who can share his experiences with me? I
> n the meantime i've begun using testicular heating technique. I'm
> keeping my testicles in my canals since one month. At the beginning
> the feeling of not having testicles in their place was a bit strange,
> but now I'm used to it. I return my testicles in their natural home
> only when I practice sports (I do swimming and I don't want others to
> ask where my balls are...). In january I'm going to do a sperm exam
> to understand if I'm finally sterile.
>
> Bye,
> M.
>
> --- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "appoggio_79"
> <appoggio_79@...> wrote:
>>
>> I'd like to talk with someone who's trying testicular heating
>> techniques. Is there somenone?
>>
>> Tanks,
>> M.
>>
>
>
>


Ed Croom
Graduate Student, Ernest Hodgson's lab
Environmental and Molecular Toxicology Department
North Carolina State University
919-515-2275
elcroom@...

Mailing
Dept of EMT
NCSU
Campus Box 7633
Raleigh, NC 27695-7633

Shipping
Dept of EMT
850 Main Campus Drive
Suite 1104
Raleigh, NC 27606

Is there somebody who can share his experiences with me? I
n the meantime i've begun using testicular heating technique. I'm
keeping my testicles in my canals since one month. At the beginning
the feeling of not having testicles in their place was a bit strange,
but now I'm used to it. I return my testicles in their natural home
only when I practice sports (I do swimming and I don't want others to
ask where my balls are...). In january I'm going to do a sperm exam
to understand if I'm finally sterile.

Bye,
M.

--- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "appoggio_79"
<appoggio_79@...> wrote:
>
> I'd like to talk with someone who's trying testicular heating
> techniques. Is there somenone?
>
> Tanks,
> M.
>