Hello,

I am a fertility patient. I'm 38.8 and my husband is 40.8. We have
now spent up to $20,000.00 on three failed IUI's and one IVF
cycle. My husband is taking a blood pressure medication called
Plendil. It is a calcium channel blocker, basically a male
contraceptive. I have read the information and know by
experience that this is the case. (We have been together for
three years, spent one year trying to get pregnant, and 7 months
in fertility treatments.)

What can my husband take as an alternative blood pressure
medication that won't function as an OC, and that will still be
effective in keeping him healthy?

What doctors/urologists can you suggest? I live in Los Angeles,
he will be working in Philadelphia through December 18th.

Currently the only trials available for RISUG are in India. The
malecontraeptives.org website has info on these trials and RISUG in
general. They also mention that there is a doctor Weiss, from Canada, who
has performed the procedure and has petitioned Health Canada to begin a
trial.  There is nothing I could find on Health Canada's website to
indicate any progress.  If you want any more information, or wish to
encourage this research, here is the contact information for Health
Canada.


Minister Anne McLellan
minister_ministre@...

  Minister's Office - Health Canada
Brooke Claxton Bldg., Tunney's Pasture
P.L. 0906C
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
K1A 0K9
Fax: 613-952-1154

If you are interested in clinical trials for RISUG in the USA, here is
some contact information for the FDA.

Food and Drug Administration
5600 Fishers Lane
Rockville, Maryland 20857
1-888-INFO-FDA (1-888-463-6332) -- main FDA Phone Number (for general
inquiries)

Center for Drug Evaluation and Research:

David Jacobson-Kram, Ph.D.
Associate Director for Pharmacology and Toxicology (HFD-024)
Office of New Drugs (OND)
Tel: 301-594-5671
Fax: 301-594-5147
E-mail: jacobsonkram@...

Good luck,
Eddie Croom

>
>

>
> Hello,
>
> I was just wondering if anyone knew any more info about RISUG....it sounds
> great &
> my boyfriends would love to try it out as I am on the Depro-Vera Shot
> right now, it
> would be a great alternative.
>
> Thanks
> Stephanie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> malecontraceptives-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>
>

Hello,

I was just wondering if anyone knew any more info about RISUG....it sounds great
&
my boyfriends would love to try it out as I am on the Depro-Vera Shot right now,
it
would be a great alternative.

Thanks
Stephanie

All:

In message 115, malecontraceptives.org "pass[ed] along a request from
Elaine Lissner, MCIP director" inviting group members to write to
several media outlets and suggest that these media outlets "do a
piece that digs in a little deeper" into RISUG than did the Grist
magazine article because "It seems like there might be more to the
story".

I found it curious and frankly rather unflattering that Dr. Lissner
chose to address this group through an intermediary.  I would have
thought that she would have attached enough importance to members of
this group and to their ideas that she would have been a member
herself, especially considering her rousing endorsement at
http://gumption.org/mcip of malecontraceptives.org.  And if she IS a
member, then she can post her own messages, as the rest of us do.

Despite the rather unflattering manner of Dr. Lissner's presentation,
I have answered her call, and I ask that the rest of the group
members please do likewise, if you have not already done so, because
results are what matter most.

However, if I were a publisher or editor, I would most likely not be
moved by the vague argument that "It seems like there might be more
to the story".  This makes us look like we are asking for a fishing
expedition.  Consequently, the rest of this post addresses concrete
issues that I think would make such a story important.  For members
who find letter writing difficult, I have composed a model letter
that you can either paraphrase or copy outright and then add your own
name, if what I have written reflects your own views.

I have numerous times read Dr. Lissner quoted as saying, "Men don't
like their private parts messed with."  Similarly we have, "Men don't
like doctors to have anything to do with their testicles," summarized
Don Waller, a contraceptives expert and professor of pharmacology and
toxicology at the University of Illinois at Chicago (Grist Magazine
article).  Oddly, I have NEVER read Dr. Lissner quoted as saying that
SHE LIKES having HER private parts messed with.  Don Waller says
nothing of that sort, either.  So maybe Dr. Lissner, and other women,
do not LIKE people messing with THEIR private parts either, and maybe
the observation relative to MEN is not really that relevant, although
the intended inference is fairly obvious.

I suggest a more relevant list of things that men do not like.

1. Men do not like awkward to use, accident prone condoms.  We often
hear that condoms fail frequently mostly because men do not use them
properly.  Some clever PR person must have conceived this self-
fulfilling nonsense, with the obvious intent of blaming the male
user.  If condoms are frequently mis-used, then they are obviously
not easily used, and the problem is in the condom, not the user.

2.  Men do not like mutilating themselves with vasectomy, although
they do it in large numbers, anyway (see item 3, below).  I myself
was considering a vasectomy until I discovered that it could cause
chronic pain and would most likely cause other, low grade health
problems that could not be easily connected directly with the
vasectomy.

3.  Men do not like putting their lives in the hands of a woman every
time that they have sex.  Women currently enjoy the freedom not to
have, or to have a child at the time of their own choosing.  Male
contraception would strip women of half of this freedom, and with it,
a significant level of self-autonomy and control.  Such a dramatic
loss of female freedom, self-autonomy and control makes male
contraception anathema to feminists.

Nonetheless, we have become so accustomed to pandering to feminists
that we tend to discuss and try to justify male contraception as if
it were a feminist issue.  Grist Magazine asks,

"But even if men used RISUG, would women trust them? It's doubtful
that the whispered promise of having been RISUGed would fly during a
one-night stand."

I ask, with all of the birth control remedies that women have, is
male trustworthiness relevant DURING A ONE-NIGHT STAND?  Obviously, a
prudent woman will be using birth control under ANY circumstances--
just as a prudent man will be using condoms in such a situation under
ANY circumstances.  A more relevant question, I suggest, is whether a
man should EVER trust a WOMAN'S whispered promises of protection?  If
the woman is dishonest, and a pregnancy results, then the man has NO
remedy.  I know a number of men who have had vasectomies, all
married, and in all cases, they had them after a so-called "accident"
which FOLLOWED the completion of their planned families.

The cause of male contraception will advance only when males stop
thinking of themselves as DRONES who should assume more of the so-
called contraceptive "burden" from women, and start thinking of
themselves as MEN who demand the same reproductive right to choose
that women have demanded and enjoyed exclusively for decades.  There
is no reason that MEN should be satisfied with the gum ball machine
when women have the rest of the whole contraceptive supermarket.

The cause of RISUG will advance only when the hazards of vasectomy
are thoroughly and widely exposed, and RISUG is seen as a NECESSARY
alternative to vasectomy, and not merely a more CONVENIENT one.
RISUG will not advance before then.  We also need to establish
RATIONAL and CONSISTENT safety levels, like those used in other
branches of medicine, and not ABSURD and selective and distorted
safety levels, like the special safety level that some have proposed
for the benign practice of Voegeli's hot bath.

MODEL LETTER:  When copying for a given destination, delete the two
other addresses which do not apply.

Monica Bauerlein
Mother Jones Magazine

Dear Monica Bauerlein:


The New Yorker Magazine
Attention:  Owen Kethery

Gentlemen:


The New York Times Magazine

Gentlemen:

I have recently heard that Dr. Elaine Lissner, Director of the Male
Contraception Information Project, is urging you do to a piece on
RISUG.  I would like to add my voice to hers.

There are numerous misconceptions about contraception in general, and
male contraception, in particular.  Such an article, especially in a
wide circulation publication like yours, could do much to correct
these misconceptions.

Contraception, including MALE contraception, is typically discussed
in feminist terms.  We frequently hear that, "Men do not assume their
fair share of the contraception burden."  This simple sentence rests
on three erroneous premises:

1.  That contraception is a burden.  To see that it is not a burden,
consider what would happen if it were unavailable.  Contraception is
not a burden, it is am important liberation.  This aspect applies to
either gender.  It obviously applies to women, since with
contraception they need not fear pregnancy as a result of sex.
Likewise, it applies to men, since with contraception, they need not
fear an unwanted lifelong child support or marital obligation.

2.  That adequate male contraception methods exist.  Currently,
conventional medicine offers condoms and vasectomy.  Condoms are
notoriously accident prone.  We are told that condom accidents happen
only when men fail to use them properly, but this is self-fulfilling
nonsense.  If condoms are frequently mis-used, then they are
obviously not easily used, and the problem is in the condom, not the
user.  Surgical vasectomy, on the other hand, releases sperms beyond
their normal isolated environment, and in so doing, invites an auto-
immune response which can cause low grade health problems which are
not obviously connected to the vasectomy.  The web site,
http://www.dontfixit.org is an extensively documented source where
you can begin researching health risks of vasectomy.  RISUG,
therefore, is not merely a new contraceptive offering greater
CONVENIENCE than existing methods, RISUG is an ESSENTIAL means to
replace a dangerous contraceptive, vasectomy.

3.  That men are averse to use of contraception.  This is clear
nonsense:  within the U.S., between 500,000 and 750,000 men have
vasectomies, so I have read in numerous places.  The aversion that
men have is to the two specific methods, because most men have at
least some fuzzy idea that these methods are not very good.  Where a
man has a REAL AVERSION is to putting his entire life in the hands of
a female every time he has sex.  A safe, reliable method like RISUG
would change all that.

I have numerous times read Dr. Lissner quoted as saying, "Men don't
like their private parts messed with."  Similarly we have, "Men don't
like doctors to have anything to do with their testicles," summarized
Don Waller, a contraceptives expert and professor of pharmacology and
toxicology at the University of Illinois at Chicago,

http://www.gristmagazine.com/maindish/schulman081303.asp

Oddly, I have NEVER read Dr. Lissner quoted as saying that SHE LIKES
having HER private parts messed with.  Don Waller says nothing of
that sort, either.  So maybe Dr. Lissner, and other women, do not
LIKE people messing with THEIR private parts either, and maybe the
observation relative to MEN is not really that relevant, although the
intended inference is fairly obvious.

We have become to accustomed to pandering to feminists, so much so
that we tend to discuss and try to justify male contraception as if
it were a feminist issue.  Grist Magazine asks,

"But even if men used RISUG, would women trust them? It's doubtful
that the whispered promise of having been RISUGed would fly during a
one-night stand."

I ask, with all of the birth control remedies that women have, is
male trustworthiness relevant DURING A ONE-NIGHT STAND?  Obviously, a
prudent woman will be using birth control under ANY circumstances--
just as a prudent man will be using condoms in such a situation under
ANY circumstances.  A more relevant question, I suggest, is whether a
man should EVER trust a WOMAN'S whispered promises of protection?  If
the woman is dishonest, and a pregnancy results, then the man has NO
remedy.

It is time that people recognize that contraception is not merely a
women's issue, but is also a MEN's issue.  The unfair playing field
on which men operate must receive wider attention.  Men's Health
magazine took a rare look at this aspect in an article last
May, "Shouldn't You Be on the Pill?"

http://www.malecontraceptives.org/articles/gifford_mens_health.html

RISUG could level the playing field.  Your article could contribute
to the pressure needed to make this happen.

I thank you very kindly.

Sincerely,

--- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "malecontraceptives"
<info@m...> wrote:
>
> For those of you who have read the Grist Magazine article and found
> it interesting, I'm passing along a request from Elaine Lissner,
MCIP
> director:
>
> "Do you read Mother Jones, the New Yorker, GQ, or the New York
Times
> Magazine? MCIP is in contact with a writer who has written for
these
> publications and is going to try to talk them into doing a story on
> RISUG. You can help:
>
> 1) Grab the e-mail address for letters to the editor (listed below).
>
> 2) Drop them a quick e-mail. Mention the following:
>
> - that you're a reader
> - that you saw an interesting article in a small online magazine
> (www.gristmagazine.com/maindish/schulman081303.asp). It seems like
> there might be more to the story, and you'd love it if they'd do a
> piece that digs in a little deeper.
> - that there was also a piece that briefly mentioned it in Men's
> Health
(www.malecontraceptives.org/articles/gifford_mens_health.html)
>
> Here are the e-mail addresses:
> Features editor at Mother Jones: Monica Bauerlein,
> Bauerlein@M...
> For the New Yorker, send a message to themail@n..., and
> title it "Attn: Owen Kethery"
> For the New York Times Magazine, magazine@n...
> For GQ, look for an e-mail address on the letters page or the page
> after the table of contents
>
> If they've already gotten a request or two for a story, the
writer's
> pitch will be much easier. You'll be making a big difference with a
> five-minute effort!"
>
> Thanks,
> the MaleContraceptives.org team

Dr. Hall sent me information on their progress with the sugar pill.

"With regards to our current research efforts on male contraceptive
development, we have found that Hex-B is one of several enzymes and
proteins involved in the fertilization process. We are currently
developing inhibitors to block the action of these enzymes and proteins to
research 100% efficacy. Currently,  we testing to determine whether these
compounds carcinogenic, mutagenic, and their level of toxicity, if any.

Recently (2002), a competing group in England has verified our nonhormonal
approach of using amino sugars as potential male contraceptives (see
research article: Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences[PNAS],
vol. 99, no. 26, pp. 17173-17178). We are working hard to patent our
products before our competitors and anticipate data from a "small" human
clinical trail in two years, if all goes well and according to plan."

Dr. Joseph Hall
President
Innovative Reproductive Technologies (IRT)


Also, the PNAS article points out that for the chemical they are studying,
NB-DNJ, it has already been through clinical trials for two different
diseases at higher doses than is needed for contraceptive effect.

Sincerely,
Eddie Croom

Caveat emptor.

The author of this reply owns the domain for Vasclip.com, and
presumably has some stake in the company.  Here is a message that I
sent to Chris at the end of June requesting that he identify himself
as someone with a financial stake in the Vasclip when making postings
to this site:

"Greetings Chris,

I received this message from a man, Kurt, who found your posting (from
quite a while ago now) at the MaleContraceptives.org discussion
group.  Kurt explains how he discovered that you are the owner of the
Vasclip.com domain, and was upset by the fact that you didn't reveal
this in your posting.  I can't help but wonder if Kurt was researching
Vasclip as a vasectomy alternative, and decided not to be your
customer partially because of these questionable business ethics.  As
Kurt says in the message below, we try to keep the
MaleContraceptives.org website and discussion group strictly
informational.  This means that we disclose all of our sources, often
with full citation lists.  Your company may benefit from a similar
policy... If you're proud of your product, why not promote it openly?

Regards,
Kirsten Thompson
MaleContraceptives.org

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Comment about your Newsgroup
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 23:10:50 -0400
From: "Kurt"
To: <info@...>

Hello.  While looking for information on a device called
the "vasclip," I found a message on your yahoo groups message board
from a person named "Chris Herman."  Out of curiosity, I did
a "whois" search (at www.networksolutions.com) to see who owns the
website www.vasclip.com. That site is registered to a Chris Herman
(below your group message, I'll include the whois report).  Herman
presents himself in your group as someone who's just stumbled across
your site and thought to mention a related site; in fact, he's
advertising his own website--and probably his own product--through a
sham technique that fails to disclose that he's promoting HIS OWN
PRODUCT.  While the vasclip website doesn't name the managers, it is
registered as a private company in Roseville, MN, at the same address
as the one where the domain name is registered  to Chris Herman.

I thought you'd like to know about this.  Your website seems to be an
information-first, non-commercial site, and I'd like to help you keep
it that way...

Kurt


The "whois" report from networksolutions:

vasclip.com

Registrant:
VMBC, LLC (VASCLIP-DOM)
3030 Centre Pointe Drive, Suite 900
Roseville, MN 55113
US

Domain Name: VASCLIP.COM

Administrative Contact:
Herman, Chris (OHLLPATLII) cherman@...
3030 Centre Pointe Road, Ste. 900
Roseville, MN 55113
US
651-631-1830 fax: 123 123 1234
Technical Contact:
VISI.com (DH-ORG) hostmaster@...
VISI.com
12 S 6th St Suite M115
Minneapolis, MN 55402
US
612-288-0880 fax: - 612-288-0889

Record expires on 01-Mar-2007.
Record created on 11-Oct-2002.
Database last updated on 24-Jun-2003 22:58:53 EDT.

Domain servers in listed order:

NS.VISI.COM 209.98.98.1
NS2.VISI.COM 38.144.126.68"

For those of you who have read the Grist Magazine article and found
it interesting, I'm passing along a request from Elaine Lissner, MCIP
director:

"Do you read Mother Jones, the New Yorker, GQ, or the New York Times
Magazine? MCIP is in contact with a writer who has written for these
publications and is going to try to talk them into doing a story on
RISUG. You can help:

1) Grab the e-mail address for letters to the editor (listed below).

2) Drop them a quick e-mail. Mention the following:

- that you're a reader
- that you saw an interesting article in a small online magazine
(www.gristmagazine.com/maindish/schulman081303.asp). It seems like
there might be more to the story, and you'd love it if they'd do a
piece that digs in a little deeper.
- that there was also a piece that briefly mentioned it in Men's
Health (www.malecontraceptives.org/articles/gifford_mens_health.html)

Here are the e-mail addresses:
Features editor at Mother Jones: Monica Bauerlein,
Bauerlein@...
For the New Yorker, send a message to themail@..., and
title it "Attn: Owen Kethery"
For the New York Times Magazine, magazine@...
For GQ, look for an e-mail address on the letters page or the page
after the table of contents

If they've already gotten a request or two for a story, the writer's
pitch will be much easier. You'll be making a big difference with a
five-minute effort!"

Thanks,
the MaleContraceptives.org team

--- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "tkarches" <tkarches@i...>
wrote:
> Has anyone here had a vasectomy using the Vasclip? A urologist in
my community is
> listed in the online physician directory and I am seriously
considering it.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom

Tom,

I had the procedure two years ago (Vasclip). I am VERY pleased with
it. The procedure took 6 minutes from pain killer injection (which
wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be) to pulling up the
boxers. No post operative pain. Just wen home and sat with my laptop
on the couch and Iced for 20 minutes per hour for about 4 hours, and
that was it. No swelling, just a little bruise from the injection.
Two years later, I'm still clean. Very worth the $ for the device,
seeing as how it was so non eventfull, and I still have all my parts
intact.

Just make sure your guy has good hands and has done many vasectomies
under his belt... that will assure that you will have as good of an
experience as possible.

Best of Luck,

Chris

There is a very nice review on the "safety and effectiveness of vasectomy" in
the May 2000 73(5) issue of Fertility and Sterility.  Schwingl and Guess review
the major variations and complications of vasectomy.

"Surgical methods also vary by method of vas occlusion and length of vas removed
[10 and 13]. Several surgical techniques for occluding the vas have been
developed with the goals of avoiding recanalization of the vas, enhancing
potential for reversal or avoiding side effects associated with increased
pressure on the testicular end of the ligated vas. Vas occlusion differs by the
method of ligation (nonabsorbable suture, cautery, clips, or some combination)
and by whether the testicular side of the vas is left unsealed (open-ended
vasectomy, which is rarely used) or sealed (closed-ended vasectomy, which is
more commonly used) [10 and 13]. Any of these methods may be used with
interposition of the fascia between the cut ends." Basically, if y

"Although most sperm granulomas are small and asymptomatic, painful sperm
granulomas may occur in 2%–3% of vasectomies, typically in the second or third
postoperative week [15 and 40]."

"Congestive epididymitis presents as pain and testicular tenderness on the
affected side. Generally, the occurrence of epididymitis is uncommon and is
reported in 0.4%–6.1% of vasectomies [53 and 54]. Congestive epididymitis can
occur sooner or later after vasectomy and linger. Typically, it lasts weeks to
months, and it is extremely rare for it to last >1 year. It is usually treated
with analgesics and antibiotics."

"Congestive epididymitis has been attributed to pressure within the epididymis
from sperm production in the presence of an occluded outlet...In one large
series, the frequency of congestive epididymitis with closed-ended vasectomy was
reported to be higher than with open-ended vasectomy (6% vs. 2%; relative risk =
3.0 (95% confidence interval [CI] = 1.2–7.5) [50]. Even among closed-end
vasectomy the incidence varies by method of occlusion...[55]."

"Among the reported long-term complications of vasectomy is a syndrome of
chronic noninfectious epididymal pain and induration beginning months to years
after vasectomy [56]. This syndrome has been attributed to long-standing
obstruction with dilatation of the epididymal ducts, extravasation of sperm and
sperm granulomas with an inflammatory reaction. The syndrome appears to be quite
rare, and the attribution to vasectomy is based on case reports."

Grist, an online magazine, is featuring a lead article on RISUG this
week.  The author interviewed the creator of RISUG, the Canadian
scientist who is advocating its use, and the director of the Male
Contraception Information Project, among others.  Recommended
reading!

http://www.gristmagazine.com/maindish/schulman081303.asp

Joel, I checked the statutes and there does not seem to be a legal age limit on
vasectomy in Michigan or the U.S. besides being a legal adult.  Also, age and
number of living children are not medical reasons to restrict access to
vasectomy according to WHO Medical Eligibility Criteria. However, in the U.S. it
seems most doctors and insurance companies will not consider you unless you are
at least 21. I checked with the General Manager of Vascenter, which provides
vasectomies in North Carolina, and he said that age and number of children
requirements depend largely on the individual urologists perfoming the
procedure.  Basically, if you want a vasectomy, you will have to find a
urologist willing to perform the operation and then go through a counselling
session.

Good luck,
Eddie

If it is the latex in the condoms causing the irritation you might be able to
use a plastic condom instead.  Potter and Villemeur have a review of the
research on sythetic condoms. Contraception volume 68 (2003) 39-45.The breakage
and slipage rates vary depending on the brand and studies but typically latex
condoms have a breakage rate .4-2% vs. 1-6% for the synthetics.  The slippage
rates for latex .6-1.3% vs. .7-4.5% vs the synthetics.
I am not sure where you live but there are a few polyurethane brands available
and a SEBS brand.  Also, Trojan now has a polurethane condom with nonoxynol- 9.

Good luck,
Eddie

Anyone from Michigan ? Im 27 I have no children..and I dont want any..havent
for almost 10 years now.. been thinking about this for a long time now ..and
I wanted to know if anyone has info that says a doc can LEGALLY keep me from
getting a vasectomy due to my age or cause I have no children.
thanks for any help
Joel



Joel P Gardner
JP Enterprises E-business solution
www.PaylessForAnything.com 21-50% off anything
1987 Green camo humvee softtop
http://photos.yahoo.com/joelpgardner
27 swm Flushing Mi
ICQ# 350773
Yahoo! joelpgardner
AIM: hmmwv4x4guy
MSN hummer4x4guy
MVPA #24713





>From: "tkarches" <tkarches@...>
>Reply-To: malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com
>To: malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [malecontraceptives] Vasectomy with Vasclip
>Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:46:21 -0000
>
>Has anyone here had a vasectomy using the Vasclip? A urologist in my
>community is
>listed in the online physician directory and I am seriously considering it.
>
>Thanks,
>Tom
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Has anyone here had a vasectomy using the Vasclip? A urologist in my community
is
listed in the online physician directory and I am seriously considering it.

Thanks,
Tom

Can anybody help,
  Wanting to take responsibility for contraception within my relationship I have
consulted my doctor who recommends, a vasectomy as the most effective means.
As the father of four children I am not adverse to  having a vasectomy, but it
is the permanency of it that puts me off.( Should my relationship change and I
want more children a reversal may not always work)
Can anyone suggest a method other them condoms that would benefit me.
I have heard of "The Male Pill" but when I mentioned this to my doctor he told
me that there is not one available at the moment and I should let others trial
it before deciding, in the mean time I'm left with having to make a choice
between a vasectomy or little sex as my wife finds condoms irritate her.
Any sensible suggestions would be welcome.
Regards
Anthony

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The study is
Roy-Choudhury, A. and Venkatakrishna-Bhatt, H.  Spermatogenic Inhibition by
Cichorium intybus L. Aqueos Root Suspension in Mice.   Naturwissenscaften
70(1983) pp. 365-366

These two researchers from the National Institute of Occupational Health in
India tested two concentrations of chicory, 4.3g/kg and 8.7g/kg.  They found
that while the lower dose was not significant in reducing testis weight the
higher dose did have a significant effect and caused degeneration of the
seminiforous tubules and the Leydig cells were atrophied.  When I searched for
this article on Web of Science there were no other articles that cited this one.
The only reason why I can think that more research was not done is that the
chicory did cause a significant drop in body weight.  The mice started out as
36g and in both treatment groups they dropped to 27.43+-1.0 for 4.3g/kg and
26.33+-0.9g (p<0.005) In contrast the control gained weight on average.

Hi Owen,

	 Jargon-free writing is not one of the strong points of
scientific researchers!  There are 2 components of this reply: the
first is my take on what this study means for RISUG, while the second
is a translation of the abstract with some additional information
from the full paper.
	 FYI -- The full article that Ben provided a link to is a
different one.  It reports on the Phase III clinical trials of RISUG
in humans and was published last year.

(1) The point of this study was to determine the reversibility of
RISUG's contraceptive effect after an extended period of use.  The
researchers have already successfully tested a method of reversal in
monkeys, so the mechanics of reversal are no problem.  Now they're
figuring out the biology.  What happens in the testes at a cellular
level when you use RISUG for over a year?  They found that the
effects of RISUG are quite different from the effects of a
vasectomy.
	 After a vasectomy, sperm build up inside the tubules where
they're manufactured.  Granulomas, or tiny nodules of inflamed
tissue, form in the tubules as your immune system tries to break down
the excess sperm.  Your immune system is forced to treat the sperm
like a foreign substance.  This is why vasectomy reversal is
difficult; reconnecting the vas deferens is relatively
straightforward procedure, but your body still thinks of sperm as
something to attack.
	 These researchers found the RISUG does not cause an immune
system reaction to sperm.  They found no granulomas.  They found
sperm production was continuous in throughout the study.  But they
also found that some of the tubules where sperm are produced,
particularly in the center of the testes, showed signs of cellular
distress.  These cells lost their usual patterns of organization and
stopped making new sperm.  It's not clear if this effect would stay
localized, or if it would spread given more time.  They did not
quantify the amount of damaged tissue.
	 The researchers conclude that despite the observed damage,
RISUG would be easier to reverse than a vasectomy.  It's not clear if
they expect that the damaged tissue would recover, or if they assume
that enough tubules would remain functional and therefore maintain
fertility.  I hope these researchers will report next on how monkeys
with long term RISUG recover once it's removed.

(2) This team of researchers injected RISUG into the vasa
deferentia of 10 monkeys and observed its effects over 18 months.
They did semen and blood tests each month.  They found that all the
monkeys stopped producing sperm from the 4th month onward.  From
month 2 to 3, all the sperm was malformed and not functional.  Blood
tests showed that RISUG was not toxic to the monkeys.  They found
normal levels of sperm antibodies, which shows that the monkeys'
immune systems were not attacking their sperm.  They also found
normal levels of testosterone.  Using a syringe, the researchers took
samples of cells from different parts of the testes after 6, 10, 12,
13, 14 and 18 months.  These samples showed that spermatogenesis, or
the production of new sperm, was continuous throughout the study.
All the stages of spermatogenesis were normal until the 12th month.
At this point, the structure of some of the tubules began to change,
with no clear lumen (central cavity) or epithelium (membrane lining
the cavity).  The tubules contained only very immature sperm.  From
the 14th month to the end of the study, the tubules in the center of
each testis stopped producing new sperm.  The appearance of vacuoles,
or little sacks of fluid, inside the cells that make sperm indicates
a build up of waste products and some sort of degeneration.   They
conclude that 18 months after injecting  RISUG, there are localized
areas of the testes that stop functioning.  They found no
granulomas.

	 Hope this doesn't contain too much second level jargon.  Let
me know if something isn't clear.

Regards,
Kirsten

The full article seems slightly easier to read and contains a helpful
conclusion.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B6T5P-47MH7Y4-F-F&_cdi=5\
008&_orig=browse&_coverDate=01%2F31%2F2003&_sk=999329998&view=c&wchp=dGLbVtb-lSz\
tb&_acct=C000054413&_version=1&_userid=1749566&md5=b3f2e139599b8bf0ec398167c4672\
3b2&ie=f.pdf


--- opopieca <opopieca@...> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am wondering if someone can translate the below abstract so I might
>
> better understand it.  Unfortunatly my background in software
> engineering is of no use... and it leaves me wondering do we really
> sound like this when we talk about our field??
>
> Thanks
>
> Owen
>
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?
> cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12826690&dopt=Abstract
>
> Abstract:
>
> J Androl. 2003 Jul-Aug;24(4):501-9.  Links
>
>
> Status of Spermatogenesis and Sperm Parameters in Langur Monkeys
> Following Long-term Vas Occlusion With Styrene Maleic Anhydride.
>
> Mishra PK, Manivannan B, Pathak N, Sriram S, Bhande SS, Panneerdoss
> S, Lohiya NK.
>
> Reproductive Physiology Section, Department of Zoology, University of
>
> Rajasthan, Jaipur, India.
>
> Vas occlusion by styrene maleic anhydride (SMA), trade name RISUG
> (one of the promising male contraceptive procedures currently in
> phase III clinical trials), at 60 mg/vas deferens dissolved in 120
> micro L dimethyl sulphoxide (DMSO) at up to a 540-day study period
> caused severe oligospermia in the first 2 to 3 ejaculations and
> uniform azoospermia in the subsequent ejaculations without toxicity
> in langur monkeys. The ejaculated spermatozoa were
> necroasthenoteratozoospermic, suggesting instant sterility. Routine
> hematology and clinical chemistry parameters and the serum
> testosterone and sperm antibody titers remained unchanged from their
> pretreatment values until 540 days vas occlusion. Histology of testes
>
> revealed continued spermatogenesis throughout the study period. The
> stages of spermatogenesis appeared normal until 300 days of vas
> occlusion. At 360 days of vas occlusion, germ cells appeared in the
> lumen. Degeneration of seminiferous epithelium was evident in some of
>
> the tubules. Following 420 days of vas occlusion, the central portion
>
> of the testis showed regressed seminiferous tubules depicting various
>
> shapes and devoid of germ cells, which continued until 540 days of
> vas occlusion. Ultrastructure of the testes after 540 days of vas
> occlusion revealed vacuolization in the cytoplasm of Sertoli cells
> and degenerative features in the membranes of the spermatocytes and
> spermatids in the affected seminiferous tubules. The sub-cellular
> features of the normal tubules were similar to those of controls. The
>
> results suggest focal degeneration of seminiferous epithelium in the
> central portion of the testis following long-term vas occlusion with
> SMA.
>
>
>


__________________________________
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Hello,

I am wondering if someone can translate the below abstract so I might
better understand it.  Unfortunatly my background in software
engineering is of no use... and it leaves me wondering do we really
sound like this when we talk about our field??

Thanks

Owen


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?
cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12826690&dopt=Abstract

Abstract:

J Androl. 2003 Jul-Aug;24(4):501-9.  Links


Status of Spermatogenesis and Sperm Parameters in Langur Monkeys
Following Long-term Vas Occlusion With Styrene Maleic Anhydride.

Mishra PK, Manivannan B, Pathak N, Sriram S, Bhande SS, Panneerdoss
S, Lohiya NK.

Reproductive Physiology Section, Department of Zoology, University of
Rajasthan, Jaipur, India.

Vas occlusion by styrene maleic anhydride (SMA), trade name RISUG
(one of the promising male contraceptive procedures currently in
phase III clinical trials), at 60 mg/vas deferens dissolved in 120
micro L dimethyl sulphoxide (DMSO) at up to a 540-day study period
caused severe oligospermia in the first 2 to 3 ejaculations and
uniform azoospermia in the subsequent ejaculations without toxicity
in langur monkeys. The ejaculated spermatozoa were
necroasthenoteratozoospermic, suggesting instant sterility. Routine
hematology and clinical chemistry parameters and the serum
testosterone and sperm antibody titers remained unchanged from their
pretreatment values until 540 days vas occlusion. Histology of testes
revealed continued spermatogenesis throughout the study period. The
stages of spermatogenesis appeared normal until 300 days of vas
occlusion. At 360 days of vas occlusion, germ cells appeared in the
lumen. Degeneration of seminiferous epithelium was evident in some of
the tubules. Following 420 days of vas occlusion, the central portion
of the testis showed regressed seminiferous tubules depicting various
shapes and devoid of germ cells, which continued until 540 days of
vas occlusion. Ultrastructure of the testes after 540 days of vas
occlusion revealed vacuolization in the cytoplasm of Sertoli cells
and degenerative features in the membranes of the spermatocytes and
spermatids in the affected seminiferous tubules. The sub-cellular
features of the normal tubules were similar to those of controls. The
results suggest focal degeneration of seminiferous epithelium in the
central portion of the testis following long-term vas occlusion with
SMA.

Hi, crushingchestpain!

Suppose we agree to disagree at this point.  Meanwhile, I am sure the
other members of the group are quite capable of deciding for
themselves which of us makes more sense.  Anyone who thinks that I do
not know what I am talking about is certainly welcome to that
opinion.  I am sure that you will agree that anyone who thinks that I
DO know what I am talking about is ALSO welcome to THAT opinion.

Your friend,

Jim

--- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "tcarpent_60175"
<tcarpent_60175@y...> wrote:
> You sir do not no what you are talking about--- In
> malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "jp40177" <jp40177@y...> wrote:
> > Yes, a logical inference.  What happens in post vasectomy
syndrome
> is
> > that when the vasa deferentia are blocked in vasectomy, the
> testicles
> > continue nonetheless to produce sperm.  The continued sperm
> > production raises the pressure within the testicles.  The
elevated
> > pressure can, and frequently does cause cause nerve damage and
> pain.
> > Eventually, the elevated pressure can cause a tissue rupture,
known
> > as a "blow-out."  The leakage from a blow-out can, in turn,
trigger
> > an auto-immune response.  The new so-called "open ended"
vasectomy
> > tried to avoid the damaging pressure, but this technique
virtually
> > guarantees an auto-immune response because of the intentional
> leakage.
> >
> > Because problems of vasectomy are in the blockage of the vasa
> > deferentia, anything which simulates a vasectomy by such blockage
> > invites similar problems.
> >
> > Of course, if you wish not to make such a LOGICAL INFERENCE, then
> > that is fine with me, but please let us not suggest that OTHERS
> > should check their BRAINS at the door.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > --- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "vasclipmidwest"
> > <vasclipmidwest@y...> wrote:
> > > -please, a logical inference? let's go with science and
clinical
> > > data . The clinical data supports vasclip at the only fda
> approved
> > > alternative to vasectomny. tc-- In
> > > malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "jp40177 <jp40177@y...>"
> > > <jp40177@y...> wrote:
> > > > Dear crushingchestpain,
> > > >
> > > > I think that Matt was drawing a logical INFERENCE.
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > > >
> > > > --- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "crushingchestpain
> > > > <tcarpent_60175@y...>" <tcarpent_60175@y...> wrote:
> > > > > Matt, when giving our health advise you should advertise
your
> > > > > credentials and be familiar with recent clinical trials if
> you
> > > want
> > > > > to have any credibility.

You sir do not no what you are talking about--- In
malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "jp40177" <jp40177@y...> wrote:
> Yes, a logical inference.  What happens in post vasectomy syndrome
is
> that when the vasa deferentia are blocked in vasectomy, the
testicles
> continue nonetheless to produce sperm.  The continued sperm
> production raises the pressure within the testicles.  The elevated
> pressure can, and frequently does cause cause nerve damage and
pain.
> Eventually, the elevated pressure can cause a tissue rupture, known
> as a "blow-out."  The leakage from a blow-out can, in turn, trigger
> an auto-immune response.  The new so-called "open ended" vasectomy
> tried to avoid the damaging pressure, but this technique virtually
> guarantees an auto-immune response because of the intentional
leakage.
>
> Because problems of vasectomy are in the blockage of the vasa
> deferentia, anything which simulates a vasectomy by such blockage
> invites similar problems.
>
> Of course, if you wish not to make such a LOGICAL INFERENCE, then
> that is fine with me, but please let us not suggest that OTHERS
> should check their BRAINS at the door.
>
> Jim
>
> --- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "vasclipmidwest"
> <vasclipmidwest@y...> wrote:
> > -please, a logical inference? let's go with science and clinical
> > data . The clinical data supports vasclip at the only fda
approved
> > alternative to vasectomny. tc-- In
> > malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "jp40177 <jp40177@y...>"
> > <jp40177@y...> wrote:
> > > Dear crushingchestpain,
> > >
> > > I think that Matt was drawing a logical INFERENCE.
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> > > --- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "crushingchestpain
> > > <tcarpent_60175@y...>" <tcarpent_60175@y...> wrote:
> > > > Matt, when giving our health advise you should advertise your
> > > > credentials and be familiar with recent clinical trials if
you
> > want
> > > > to have any credibility.

Yes, a logical inference.  What happens in post vasectomy syndrome is
that when the vasa deferentia are blocked in vasectomy, the testicles
continue nonetheless to produce sperm.  The continued sperm
production raises the pressure within the testicles.  The elevated
pressure can, and frequently does cause cause nerve damage and pain.
Eventually, the elevated pressure can cause a tissue rupture, known
as a "blow-out."  The leakage from a blow-out can, in turn, trigger
an auto-immune response.  The new so-called "open ended" vasectomy
tried to avoid the damaging pressure, but this technique virtually
guarantees an auto-immune response because of the intentional leakage.

Because problems of vasectomy are in the blockage of the vasa
deferentia, anything which simulates a vasectomy by such blockage
invites similar problems.

Of course, if you wish not to make such a LOGICAL INFERENCE, then
that is fine with me, but please let us not suggest that OTHERS
should check their BRAINS at the door.

Jim

--- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "vasclipmidwest"
<vasclipmidwest@y...> wrote:
> -please, a logical inference? let's go with science and clinical
> data . The clinical data supports vasclip at the only fda approved
> alternative to vasectomny. tc-- In
> malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "jp40177 <jp40177@y...>"
> <jp40177@y...> wrote:
> > Dear crushingchestpain,
> >
> > I think that Matt was drawing a logical INFERENCE.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > --- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "crushingchestpain
> > <tcarpent_60175@y...>" <tcarpent_60175@y...> wrote:
> > > Matt, when giving our health advise you should advertise your
> > > credentials and be familiar with recent clinical trials if you
> want
> > > to have any credibility.

-please, a logical inference? let's go with science and clinical
data . The clinical data supports vasclip at the only fda approved
alternative to vasectomny. tc-- In
malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "jp40177 <jp40177@y...>"
<jp40177@y...> wrote:
> Dear crushingchestpain,
>
> I think that Matt was drawing a logical INFERENCE.
>
> Jim
>
> --- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "crushingchestpain
> <tcarpent_60175@y...>" <tcarpent_60175@y...> wrote:
> > Matt, when giving our health advise you should advertise your
> > credentials and be familiar with recent clinical trials if you
want
> > to have any credibility.

I'm planning to undergo a vasectomy within the next month, but I'm
unsure if I should do anything permanent at this stage. Can anyone
that had a vasectomy inform me what I can look forward to?

I would also like to know what progress has been made regarding
other male contraceptives. I do not want to have it done if there is
going to be an alternative shortly. Any ideas?

> My girlfriend has recently stopped using the pill (after us being
> together for 3 years) for seperate health reasons.
>
At the moment our method of
> contraception is "not having sex", obviously I would like this to
> change.
>> > -Samuel, from NY

I am verry interrsted to the heat method as well!
In waiting for any answer, I suggest your girlfriend to suscribe to
this groups, at yahoo! : FertilityAwareness:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FertilityAwareness?yguid=130181785
and to go to: www.susunweed.com


Not having sex is really an insane situation! I did for a little and
it is bad.
She could learn her cycle and know some herbs that are abortives or
emmenagogue (wild carrot, ginger, etc). And you could do the heat
treatment added to the rest.
I think it would be a good formula!
But something sure: nothing is assurely sure...!

"Hot balls make no babies. If he sits in hot water for 20-30 minutes
every night for at least a month, he will shoot duds for the next 8-
10 weeks. Don't laugh. This is effective and inexpensive."
from Susun's Weed




--- In malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, "s_interest > > far as I
can tell, this is "the" male contraceptive. Cheap(not
> > counting the water bill), easy (so you soak your balls for half
an
> > hour in hot water twice a month on average, big deal, it could be
a
> > tradition even become a tradition), non binding (you can take
baths
> > at any time, or can miss a day, no big deal, unlike with the
pill),
> > non intrusive (no drugs, no surgery, no incerts, no problem),
safe
> > (if you are careful to not get scalded), and fully reversible (as
> > shown by the studies, plus we all heard of those cases of
infertile
> > men, that just had to stop wearing tight pants to consieve.) Yes
it
> > hasnt been fully tested, and yes for safety one should also
combine
> > it with at least one sperm blocking method, it seems like the
best
> > method out there right now, period. One that I can go and try
right
> > now, without waiting for the FDA.
> >

Vasclip has been approved by the FDA as the first alternative to
Vasectomy. The clinical data seems to be better than historical data.
It is being shown at the AUA in Chicago, and I heard that WGN, the TV
station is featuring it and Paul Harvey may be speaking about it.

Matt, why would this happen with Vasclip but not a traditional
vasectomy? You might want to read the FDA approval of vasclip.--- In
malecontraceptives@yahoogroups.com, Matt Campbell <mcc99@y...> wrote:
> Thanks, Chris.  The problem with the vasclip is that
> sperm will still be getting produced and will build up
> in the testes, leading to eventual testicle rupture
> and the painful complications that follow.  So while
> the vasclip is a nice idea, it still is not a real
> alternative to a reversible and low-risk male
> contraceptive technique (which we are still waiting
> on...).
>
> The "male pill" is (supposedly) due out in 2005.
> Clinical trials are currently underway.  So, let's
> just hang on and see what happens... 2 more years to
> go...
>
> -----
>    Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 20:04:27 -0000
>    From: "cj123_1999 <chrisherman@m...>"
> <chrisherman@m...>
> Subject: Vasclip
>
> I stumbled across your site, and have read thru the
> posts here, and
> articles on the .org url. Very nice. It seems that the
> main focus
> here is reversable male techniques, so I'm not sure if
> this would
> necessarily be of interest, but there is another
> company that I had
> seen on the news nearly a year ago that is doing work
> in furthuring
> the options avaliable. Their site is www.vasclip.com
>
> Just an FYI, and keep up the good work.
>
> Chris
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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Hi!
I read in a book that thare has been a study with chicory and male
mices. Apparently, chicory was effective to make the mice infertile,
and only for a small period of time if desired (1-2 weeks).
Is anybody have some cues about it?

Thank you!

all over the net I hear about a cream called neem.
Do you know anything about it?
Is it truely helpful??

Keith