Hi, new to group.  This sounds great, One question:   What does this protocol do to the bowels?   Do you end up sh--- like a goose?
Thanks for the help Byran

I have heard that Vit C is not a good thing to take with abx because it somehow limits an abx' effectiveness.  This would keep me from trying the full protocol because I'm on abx.  Anyone know about this?

-Marisa

Thanks for your reply, I m glad to learn about the beneficial bacteria not being harmed, perhaps my weight loss was part of a healing process.  Definitely research is needed here, I guess we are the first documented group on this protocol, this may be an important list.  We need to document the surprises of this protocol. 

One question if anyone knows how does or will this high-dose salt effect the Kidneys?  Is this contraindicated for people with weak Kidneys? 
--Kurt

Hi Dana,

Thanks Marc. I ll keep you posted. I ve been off all of this for a couple of weeks because we re moving. I should be organized enough to get back on the chelation again and try the salt/C by some time next week. I already know that I herx a bit from the chelation (my some ole fatigue and depression/apathy which is a drag I have difficulty remembering it s just a herx), so maybe I ll start on the salt/C by itself to see what happens. That way I can get a sense of what s doing what. Also, I think doing the s/c by itself might well give me a sense of which of the two problems (Lyme or Hg) might be the bigger problem. It ll be interesting.
Regards,
Dana

--------------------------
Yes, please keep me tagged.
That's not a bad point about trying the s/c alone to get a sense of it.  BTW, it is possible, even at a low starting dose of salt/C to get a little of the mood symps along with usual symps (see Salty Dog's report at the "Researcher's Reports" in the Links section).  However, it is a good thing as it means microbes in the hypothalamus/pituitary area are being hit. 

All the best,

Marc
firefox8808

The information anywhere on Lyme Strategies should not be considered complete, nor should it be relied on or interpreted to suggest a course of treatment for any individual.  It is research information only and it should not be used in place of a visit, call, consultation or the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider.  Information obtained with regards to Lyme Strategies is research only on an ongoing basis for review and evaluation.  Any application or implementation of research information is considered at the members own risk.  The providers of the Lyme Strategies site are not medical physicians.  Should you have any health care-related questions, please call or see your physician or other qualified health care provider promptly.

Hi Kurt,

I also wanted to note that we had a researcher with a very bright doctor
who was supportive of doing this protocol and conducted periodic test
(blood, heart) and it was informative to see that mineral levels (including
potassium which we thought might drop a little) all were perfectly normal -
even when higher doses of the S/C were reached (9-12g).

All the best,

Marc
firefox8808

Hi, This looks like a great group!  I m looking forward to the dialogue.

Just a few observations.  I tried the salt protocol about 6 months ago, and a friend with Lymes also started it.  We had somewhat differing experiences.  My friend has had great success.  I had some immediate success, but then started losing weight on the protocol, and started having digestive issues.  As I am underweight, this caused some concern, so I stopped for awhile and studied.  Found no real explanation although I eventually theorized that the salt was killing some of the friendly flora that I desperately needed.   Consider that it is very strong broad-spectrum&  So I decided to slow way down, to just one tablet a day, or a tablet every few days.  And that seemed to help my energy levels a lot without the weight loss.  OK, so I was curious why I had more energy, so I conducted more searches of research, and I found out that salt acts on the adrenals, and in fact is recommended as a support for adrenal exhaustion.  Of course nearly everyone with chronic Lyme has adrenal exhaustion, and I have it very bad.  Here is a page that discusses salt as adrenal support:
http://www.drkaslow.com/html/adrenal_insufficiency.html  (about half way down the page)
I am led to wonder whether part of the effect of the salt is actually support for exhausted adrenals, and whether that leads to a stronger immune response, and is part of what is actually happening with salt&

One other observation, I notice when I take just a little salt (one CNC tablet a day) that my muscles have more fluid in them.  Clearly the salt is needed for many reasons.

Another issue I have some concern about taking high doses of sea salt or Real salt (my favorite), because won t this overdose the person on trace minerals?  I believe that the use of CNC salt over sea/Real is important for this reason.  We still need some sea/Real salt, but not high dose.

One more point mercury has antimicrobial properties and I believe at one time was used to treat tough bacterial infections.  Although we DON T need and want mercury, I wonder whether some of the problems people have after Amalgam removal is that they have lost the antimicrobial effect of mercury.  This could allow new dysbiosis and immune activation, worsening the mercury detox symptoms for people with bad bogs.  I know that sounds unbelievable but isn t this possible? If this is true, we shouldn t remover mercury and chelate until the bad bugs are under control& and the immune system is working properly again.   I have Cutler s book too and recognize a lot of herxheimer type symptoms in his descriptions of mercury detox, which I believe supports this admittedly strange idea.. J

This new therapy looks very, very interesting! Cant wait to try it. I just wanted to inform people to be careful because high levels of sodium can raise blood pressure and trigger irregular heart beats in some lyme patients.

After reading the main website info I found it fascinating.
However, I would like to see some feedback from very ill lyme patients , ones with bad neuro issues.   The authors explained that a "crook in their neck went away" with this treatment. That's not really a big deal if you know what I mean  ;)

Hi Eric,

Thanks much for the great link.

Yes, two very big points with the salt/BP stuff of recent years.

1.  The salt being studied was westernized, processed salt (like Morton's)
which is bad news - it has been altered to where the body cannot process it
effectively and it ends up in joints (arthritis), arteries (cardio), and so on.
2.  However, the studies were not done well at all and they have been
pretty much debunked by medical and university researchers.

However, it is interesting to note that it started the whole "low-salt,
no-salt" craze.  It is also interesting to note that chronic disease, such
as lyme, parkinsons, ALS, CFS, and so on, exponentially increased in this
time too.  In Japan, they never had a history of lyme disease at
all.  After they bought into the "low-sodium" kick from America in terms of
their long-standing, traditional high, naturally-occurring sodium items
like soy, teriyaki sauces, miso, etc., they then saw their first-ever cases
of lyme there.  Hmm.

All the best,

Marc
firefox8808



At 02:59 PM 12/7/2004 +0000, you wrote:


>I just thought I would share this with anyone wanting to read about
>the myth of salt and blood pressure.
>
>http://www.health-report.co.uk/sodium_chloride_salt_myths1.html
>
>Peace,
>Eric
>
>
>
>
>
>
>The information anywhere on Lyme Strategies should not be considered
>complete, nor should it be relied on or interpreted to suggest a course of
>treatment for any individual.  It is research information only and it
>should not be used in place of a visit, call, consultation or the advice
>of your physician or other qualified health care provider.  Information
>obtained with regards to Lyme Strategies is research only on an ongoing
>basis for review and evaluation.  Any application or implementation of
>research information is considered at the members own risk.  The providers
>of the Lyme Strategies site are not medical physicians.  Should you have
>any health care-related questions, please call or see your physician or
>other qualified health care provider promptly.
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Marc,
I found a source for raw, natural Celtic sea salt that sells in bulk - no additives. Would this be a good alternative to the pills.

Just a bit of feedback about my second day of trying this, albeit a a low level. My scalp feels like it is moving or something crawling in it. Very weird. I also am getting the same feeling in my face. I haen't experience anything like a herx yet, but my levels are way to low most likely. I have been following a no salt diet for years so even a couple of grams a day is a lot for my system. Perhaps if I had been enjoying those pretzel rods all my friends were eating, my lyme wouldn;t have got so bad...lol. Oh well onward and upward.
Salt on!
Eric

Marc,

I found a source for raw, natural Celtic sea salt that sells in
bulk - no additives. Would this be a good alternative to the pills.

Just a bit of feedback about my second day of trying this, albeit a
a low level. My scalp feels like it is moving or something crawling
on it. Very weird. I also am getting the same feeling in my face. I
haen't experience anything like a herx yet, but my levels are way to
low most likely. I have been following a no salt diet for years so
even a couple of grams a day is a lot for my system. Perhaps if I
had been enjoying those pretzel rods all my friends were eating, my
lyme wouldn;t have got so bad...lol. Oh well onward and upward.

Salt on!
Eric

I just thought I would share this with anyone wanting to read about
the myth of salt and blood pressure.

http://www.health-report.co.uk/sodium_chloride_salt_myths1.html

Peace,
Eric

Thanks Marc. I ll keep you posted. I ve been off all of this for a couple of weeks because we re moving. I should be organized enough to get back on the chelation again and try the salt/C by some time next week. I already know that I herx a bit from the chelation (my some ole fatigue and depression/apathy which is a drag I have difficulty remembering it s just a herx), so maybe I ll start on the salt/C by itself to see what happens. That way I can get a sense of what s doing what. Also, I think doing the s/c by itself might well give me a sense of which of the two problems (Lyme or Hg) might be the bigger problem. It ll be interesting.
Regards,
Dana

Hi Marc,
I checked out the links.  They are informative and encouraging!
Thanks!!!
Muysana

I wanted to comment a little more on what Dana was noting:

While there have been few folks who have gotten "free" of lyme by just concentrating on nothing but Borrelia, it has been my own experience and that of others, that most folks must alleviate it by "peeling an onion" of other co-infectionary, or toxic (including metals) factors, to truly become free of it.

This is why one person may get relieved with a Doug rife device, or colloidal silver, or antibiotics, etc., etc, and others doing the same exact thing will not. 

Some folks will have their mind set on only Bb, and that the only reason it takes so long is, it "goes into cyst form".  This is true, it can go into cyst form.  But that is not the sole reason for its difficulty in eradicating.  For the syphilis spirochete, Bb's cousin, also goes into cyst form and, as Dr. Burgdorfer himself noted, that has been known for decades.  Yet, the syphilis bacteria is remedied just with dosing of penicillin.  In this regard, you can't blame doctors to a certain extent scratching their heads when Borrlia does not respond the same way.

And, understanding how microbial 'worms' (nematodes and nemamorphs as described at the lymephotos site), actually protect certain bacteria (even hold them inside them) as well as feed off them (not unlike the way we protect and feed on cattle or chickens as a "food source"), this appears to be at least one completely overlooked aspect of the prolongation of Bb infections.

I have not met anyone with lyme (including myself) who has not had co-infections.  And, there is evidence that the extent of co-infectionary microbes in society is simply more than what it was in the 80s and even early 90s. This includes the usual tick-related items like Babesia (and folks are usually only tested for the Microti strain when there's many others), Erlichia, Mycoplasma, Bartonella, Brucella, Coxsackie, Herpes 1-6a & 6b, Epstein Barr, Cytomegalo, Fungus, other protozoa, parasites, bacteria, etc.  It like a bad bug problem in a house.  You knock the ants back and mites come out.  Knock the mites back and roaches appear, knock the roaches back and the ants are back, round and round, etc., etc.

That's why we call it "lyme complex" instead of lyme disease here.  And, unless a person "peels the onion", and takes the "layers" off, methodically, it is very difficult for the body to truly get "on top of" the complex for good. 

Fortunately, the salt/C research protocol appears to have quite a broad-spectrum effect, not only on Bb (in its various forms) but also other microbes, and in knocking these out, allows a person to then "mop-up" whatever co-infectionary items that have been "stirred-up" or catalyzed by the Bb's effect.

All the best,

Marc
firefox8808

Hi Marc-
Thanks for the reply. I m doing Andy s protocol with 25 mg each DMSA and ALA every 3 hours around the clock (currently 3 days on and 4 days off). Will the salt/C be ok with DMSA as well as with ALA?

Thanks,

Dana

I saw your post on the lyme and rife list, Mark.  Decided to join because I started this protocol last week.  I'm moving up a gram at a time with the salt, and am at 4 g plus whatever I eat on my food.

I've been sick for many years.  Had my amalgams out February 2001. Chelated with Andy's protocol for about 75 rounds, but have an infection that has kept me too sick to keep at it.  I haven't had any tests to see what it is, but I know it responds to antibiotics and comes back 3 days after they are finished.  I've kept myself going with high doses of vitamin A.  I have arthritis, fibromyalgia, allergies, multiple chemical sensitivities...
Carmen

Hi Eric,

Absolutely.  That is exactly the way to do it, Eric.

If you saw my earlier post to you, try and follow that format.  Take a dose
in water (or fill a "00" gelatin capsule) as described at say, 10AM and
then another at 2PM and "listen" carefully to your body.  If you feel even
just fatigued or slight accentuation of symptoms areas, do not
increase.  But instead stay at that level until these are not as
pronounced.  Even if for some days.  Then do 3x/day and listen.  Continue
in the way.  And lots of water(!)

As regards cysts: this is not an issue with raised salt/vitamin C.  The
principle at work here is called "hypertonic pressure" (this is all
explained in the Members Section you will getting eventually).  But simply
put:  Bb, in any of its forms, have no evolutionary protection for this.  A
balance must exist between the fluid inside the cell of a bacterium microbe
and the fluid outside surrounding it.  The raised saline changes this ratio
and causes the bacteria to have its internal fluids pulled out (reverse of
what is the normal tendency).  So, it si simply a matter of, does the
microbes have a cell wall?  And all Bb's forms, even the cyst form does.
This is why you will see come cyst-form microbes that were recovered and
photographed at the lymephotos site as recovered from a subject.



At 07:44 PM 12/6/2004 +0000, you wrote:
>Mark,

>Since I haven't got the protocol yet, is it okay to ramp up the
>levels of salt and C slowly? Does salt have the same cyst forming
>effect as other antimicrobials?
>
>Peace,
>Eric

I saw your post on the lyme and rife list, Mark.  Decided to join
because I started this protocol last week.  I'm moving up a gram at a
time with the salt, and am at 4 g plus whatever I eat on my food.

I've been sick for many years.  Had my amalgams out February 2001.
Chelated with Andy's protocol for about 75 rounds, but have an
infection that has kept me too sick to keep at it.  I haven't had any
tests to see what it is, but I know it responds to antibiotics and
comes back 3 days after they are finished.  I've kept myself going
with high doses of vitamin A.  I have arthritis, fibromyalgia,
allergies, multiple chemical sensitivities...

Carmen

Mark,

Since I haven't got the protocol yet, is it okay to ramp up the
levels of salt and C slowly? Does salt have the same cyst forming
effect as other antimicrobials?

Peace,
Eric

Hello-
Thanks so much for sharing this info.

I've wondered about the salt and vit c protocol since its mention on the Lyme-and-rife group in the last few months. I have had "symptoms" since around 1988 when, within the same period of time, I was bitten by a tick and had a half dozen or so almalgam fillings replaced (didn't really know better at the time). After all these years of a complex of symptoms that was diagnosed as chronic fatigue sydrome, I was diagnosed with Lyme (Bowen 1:32 -- not a terribly high count) this past summer. Over the years since the late 80s, I'v taken many 10s of thousands of $$$ of supplements, which I'm certain has kept me from being really sick, though I've not really been able to work  since the early 90s.
In the last few months, I also have read Andy Cutler's book, and I'm pretty sure that mercury toxicity is a large part of my problem (and I had my fillings replaced in the late 90s). I have done a few rounds of Andy-style chelation, and I have noticed quite a bit of improvement.

So, my question is: do you think that the salt/vitamin c protocol can be used at the same time as doing chelation? I do believe that the Lyme needs to be addressed as well as the Hg. At present, the only thing I'm doing that is intended to treat Lyme is using a Photon Genie
and (as usual) taking lots of supplements. I'm not willing to get into abx and have thus been looking for something else. So, what do you think? Any feedback on this would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Dana

Hi Eric

Whoops!
Meant to say - welcome to the new board!
Glad to see you here:-)

All the best,

Marc
firefox8808

Hi Mark,
You know it is kind of funny, I stumbled upon the site (lymephotos?)  about 4 months back and used it only for pictures of the bacteria. I read briefly through the theory and didn't pay that much attention to it. I figured if this had any merit someone on the Lyme/rife site
would be talking about it. Now this. Wow, sometime right under your nose exists the very thing that might make you better. So you have had good luck with it? I will probaly buy a subscription to the lyme strategies site very soon (get through Christmas + just bought an
MFC + new furnace for apartment house...etc..you know the routine).

But I am very excited about this protocol. In my own way I will start implementing it slowly (adding sea salt to my food and a few extra vit c pills a day) until I can get the full regimine
information.

As always, I really appreciate your hard work and knowledge along with your willingness to share it with others. I look forward to the many insights that will surface in this forum.
Peace,
Eric

Hello-
Thanks so much for sharing this info. I've wondered about the salt and
vit c protocol since its mention on the Lyme-and-rife group in the
last few months. I have had "symptoms" since around 1988 when, within
the same period of time, I was bitten by a tick and had a half dozen
or so almalgam fillings replaced (didn't really know better at the
time). After all these years of a complex of symptoms that was
diagnosed as chronic fatigue sydrome, I was diagnosed with Lyme (Bowen
1:32 -- not a terribly high count) this past summer. Over the years
since the late 80s, I'v taken many 10s of thousands of $$$ of
supplements, which I'm certain has kept me from being really sick,
though I've not really been able to work  since the early 90s.

In the last few months, I also have read Andy Cutler's book, and I'm
pretty sure that mercury toxicity is a large part of my problem (and I
had my fillings replaced in the late 90s). I have done a few rounds of
Andy-style chelation, and I have noticed quite a bit of improvement.

So, my question is: do you think that the salt/vitamin c protocol can
be used at the same time as doing chelation? I do believe that the
Lyme needs to be addressed as well as the Hg. At present, the only
thing I'm doing that is intended to treat Lyme is using a Photon Genie
and (as usual) taking lots of supplements. I'm not willing to get into
abx and have thus been looking for something else. So, what do you
think? Any feedback on this would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Dana

Hi Mark,

You know it is kind of funny, I stumbled upon the site (lymephotos?)
about 4 months back and used it only for pictures of the bacteria. I
read briefly through the theory and didn't pay that much attention
to it. I figured if this had any merit someone on the Lyme/rife site
would be talking about it. Now this. Wow, sometime right under your
nose exists the very thing that might make you better. So you have
had good luck with it? I will probaly buy a subscription to the lyme
strategies site very soon (get through Christmas + just bought an
MFC + new furnace for apartment house...etc..you know the routine).
But I am very excited about this protocol. In my own way I will
start implementing it slowly (adding sea salt to my food and a few
extra vit c pills a day) until I can get the full regimine
information.

As always, I really appreciate your hard work and knowledge along
with your willingness to share it with others. I look forward to the
many insights that will surface in this forum.

Peace,
Eric