At 6:42 PM -0400 9/26/00, White Light wrote:
>Some people are, i donnt want to say in a bad way but *out there*
>dana beal has PKD, patrick kroupa is tlaking about i dont know what
>but he sees lights all the time and the purple light fixes
>everything, nick sandberg is writing articles about the same thing.
>
>the difference between all of u and NA is in na they keep telling
>you to do all this to get intouch with your 'higher power' you guys
>are *on* all the time.

Maybe we're just in touch with our higher power.

At 10:50 PM -0400 9/27/00, booker w wrote:
>Hi.  You're right in that for each addict it "takes whatever it
>takes," and that seems to be a very individual road.  I took
>ibogaine 3 times - still relapsed.  No doubt the ibogaine made my
>relapse so uncomfortable that I knew I couldn't continue to get
>high, but also didn't know how to stay quit.  I know you don't like
>it, but for me the 12 step road is definitely proving to be the way
>for me to stay quit continuously.  I resisted the 12 step route for
>twenty-five years!  Why...I don't have a clue as I am not stupid and
>knew that they had the highest success rate.  I was just too
>stubborn and rebellious and hadn't been knocked down enough I guess.
>
>Addictions are such a puzzle and again it seems to take whatever it
>takes.  It seems like if you just keep throwing stuff at it,
>whatever you do, finally something softens and maybe it can end.  I
>only have three months clean again, but I do feel like I may've
>found the lasting way to stay clean - the "tools" as they say.  Even
>tho I still desire to get high often, when I was getting high this
>last time there was absolutely no real enjoyment of it and no peace
>whatsoever.  At least I have that peace now.  In my opinion trying
>more ibogaine could help, but I agree with Jane, just keep trying
>anything. I had hoped that ibogaine was that "magic pill" too, but
>even tho it made a lasting difference, it definitely wasn't the
>whole answer.
>
>Best of wishes and don't give up.
>Sandy

My higher power is as good as your higher power. In fact they are, I
suspect, one & the same.

At 7:13 PM -0400 9/29/00, White Light wrote:
>Patrick i've read some of what you wrote and no way am I doing that.
>If you think ibogaine is weak as a 'headchange tool and spiritual
>integrater' and follow it up with 2 or 3 mg of lsd because that will
>'blow apart ego boundaries' you are you and you are not me. ibogaine
>was not 'weak' to me, it was hell. I would rather spend 10 years in
>NA meetings then eat 20 or 30 doses of lsd. I hate acid its even
>more awful then ibogaine. I know u didnt recommend that to me but
>even doing 2 or 3 doses is awful and I dont want to do acid or
>ketamine or anything that makes me 'trip' i dont like it.
>
>Nick yes the us and them people are everywhere. I'm not a us and
>them person I think whatever floats your boat is fine. I am not sure
>if its because i'm repressed or in denial or whatever people have
>said to me through mail but you, patrick, are both saying that there
>has to be something wrong with me if I like to get high. Maybe im
>not you guys and i dont like pschedelic drugs, I like heroin. I want
>to stay off it and will try what I can if i have to do ibogaine
>again i will do it after that I dont know what yet but it wont be
>lsd. all ibogaine had reminded me of is how much i hate pschedelics
>and dont want to ever do them.

Tried melatonin? Dreaming at nite definitely takes the edge off.
Gives you a feeling of more SPACE in your head to fall back into, so
life doesn't seem so jammed up. A pretty benign way to get some of
the same NMDA action as Ibo--and naturally, while you're asleep.

Dana/cnw


  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tracey Hayes"  <mmmtexas@...>
Subject: Re: Nimbin In...May 5, 2001 Space Odyssey Grows to 20+ Cities

Dana,

Austin will be included for sure, however, I do not feel certain that
I'll be able to use the posters or other psychedelic propaganda.  It
will severely limit our turn out and participation if we do.

anyway, we'll put a little something together.

Our contact phone is 512-493-7357.  We haven't got a web page yet,
but will have some time in November.  As for our events, we plan to
have a 2 day conference, and perhaps a rave, in addition to the march
on the fifth.  I am currently in process of arranging a rave to take
place in Feb. or March, and proceeds will go towards our efforts here
in Texas.

For now, the contact e-mail address is mmmtexas, however, the will
probably change in November when we establish a web page.

Peace
Tracey


[Hiyah, Trace--

This year we're trying to raise consciousness that cannabis gets its
power from pineal gland release of a tryptamine, not via the opiate
receptors. Feds (NIDA) released a bogus study saying pot is "more
like heroin than we ever previously believed." (Alan Leshner)-- but
I've sent many packets out showing the main effect is a spike in
serum levels of 5-methoxy-tryptamine (melatonin), which I think
people have largely ignored, because they thought that I was just
PROMOTING melatonin, albeit for harm reduction among potheads & other
non-injecting drug users. And that is  SECONDARY to making the point,
and educating the public, that pot is a psychedelic, not a narcotic.

The reason is simple: psychedelics are not habit-forming.

Therefore pot should be separated from hard drugs. In fact, the
cannabidiol (which nobody thought did anything except maybe
down-regulate tumor necrosis factor) works like ibogaine at the NMDA
receptor  to "erase" any addictive effect. It's also probably active
against alcohol & other hard drugs if yr not doing too much, so the
claims of people who say they weaned themselves off coke or heroin
are to be taken seriously.

This is extremely important medically (because melatonin flushes the
glands and organs, whereas opiates constipate)--but even more to the
public health side of the equation, to convincing the broad public
that pot is integral, as the non-addictive alternative to any harm
reduction approach to ending the War on Drugs.

Melatonin is rather similar to psylocibin in structure, you know,
which is the reason you get this little acidy-type trip the first
time you smoke a potent joint. But it's main effect is vivid,
psychedelic dreams. Pot depletes melatonin, so taking a supplement at
nite restores short-term memory and dispells lethargy. Melatonin IS
harm reduction for potheads, boozers--anyone who uses anything,
almost.

The mushrooms stand for melatonin. Different forms of the same
molecule, is all. I take it when I go to sleep, and again if I wake
up in the middle of the nite. Sublingual mints. The dreams are
intense.

Dana Beal/cures-not-wars/212-0677-7180]


From: chris <chris@...>
Subject: Posters required in S. Africa

>From: "j-thang" <ezpz@...>
>To: <schmoo@...>
>Subject: Justin Here
>Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 23:03:43 +0200
>Organization: The EZPZ New Generation
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>X-Priority: 3
>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600
>
>     Hi  Justin Ballot here in Durban South  Africa We spoke a while ago
>about the  marijuana issue and i said i would contact u when i got back.
>Well i'm here now and busy  registering a political party and then i'm
>going to start the 2001space odyssey.   Have u got any more news for me?
>Do u know if they will send me  posters for free? Thanks  Justin# PS do u
>know what happened when those  guys ,alun Buffry etc went to the human
>rights court? Thanks.


From: Global Peace Cafeneh <globalpeas@...>
Subject: RE: Please Confirm Participation in 2001 Space Odyssey

For he's a jolly good fellow....
     Thanks again for all the hard work you Folks are doing.

     Yes we are going to participate in the mmm and no we did not get
posters yet. If you can, please send them to...

    globalpeas
    1518 s. 18th st.
    KC KS 66101

From: Jimmy Dorey <jdorey@...>
Subject: Re: Nimbin In...May 5, 2001 Space Odyssey Grows to 20+ Cities


hey hey!
just starting to work on Halifax Nova Scotia, Canada.!
stay tuned...
scarecrow

From: Michael Palmieri <forml_2000@...>
Subject: Re: More than A Dozen Cities Confirmed for Space Odyssey
To: Dana Beal <dana@...>

High Dana,
    Please add Tampa,Florida to the 2001 Million
Marijuana March List !We will be sponsoring a Hemp
Festival (Live music and Vendors)& March on the
Federal Court House(open mic).Lykes Gaslight Park
12:00noon til 6:00 pm. Contact : Florida Organization
Reformed Marijuana Laws,Inc. ( FORML ). P.O. Box 2061
Zephyrhills, Florida 33539 (813)779-2551
e-mail : forml_2000@... or
forml420@...

Vendors ,Volunteers and Contributions are Needed !

=====
Florida Organization Reformed Marijuana Laws,Inc. (FORML)
P.O.Box 2061 Zephyrhills,Florida 33539
phone/fax (813)779-2551
E-mail :forml@... or forml_2000@...
Help End Marijuana Prohibition
please visit www.hightimes.com for Event Info.


****IBOGAINE SIDE BAR****

From: "Rui Simžes" <relsimoes@...>
Subject: ibogaine/PORTUGAL
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:57:10 GMT

Dear Dana,

I apologize for taking the liberty of addressing you. I am a
38-year-old Portuguese male living in Carcavelos, 16 km or 10 miles
away from the center of Lisbon, Portugal.

Five years ago I started dating a heroin addict. She was smoking
between 0.25g and 1g of heroin per day (heroin probably only 25%
pure). Like most of society, I had heard about hard drugs and
addiction but knew very little about it. Because she told me she
wanted to quit but did not have family support or the financial
means, I helped her by taking her to at least 3 doctors. We tried the
two ways that were at our disposal at the time (3-4 years ago):
(1)detox with a cocktail of pills for a week and then naltrexone, and
(2) sending Sandra to a kind of concentration camp in Cordoba,
southwestern Spain, called RETO, run by a religious order with very
hard and strict disciplinary methods. But she always relapsed, one
way or the other. And I had to keep on buying her heroin, going into
the gutter with her to get it, risking getting busted by a
non-friendly police. She had never tried cocaine, though.

One night she told me channel 2 TV would transmit a documentary
produced by Danish television on an innovative cure for drug
addiction. The film went on air at 3 a.m., when most people are
asleep. That's when we learned of HEANTOS, a blend of herbs invented
by Vietnamese Tran Khuong Dan. They claimed such wonderful results I
was enthusiastic about it. So I decided to start surfing the
internet, looking for more information on the subject. I found lots
of data, which were later wiped out. A month later heantos was
prohibited for reasons which are still obscure. I believe they wanted
to regain control over the product, since it is being investigated at
John Hopkins with a UNDP subsidy of $US 400,000 + $US 100,000 from a
private corp. But I as tried to get hold of some heantos for Sandra,
with whom I was living with already, I was lucky to correspond with
an Australian called Tamara Pisera, who told me of ibogaine and gave
me Nick Sandberg's contact.

Before going deeper into ibogaine, we still managed to buy another
natural medicine from Vietnam, named HUFUSA, which I got from a guy
in Helsinki, Finland. Hufusa was the Vietnamese's government
alternative to Heantos. Sandra tried it and it was like doing it cold
turkey; it simply didn't work. She was getting very disappointed and
kept on telling me she really wanted to quit once and for all, but
she needed a little help.
That´s when I finally contacted Nick and asked him for ibogaine. He
sent me 1.5g of ibogaine HCl and asked me to read some treatment
guidelines, since we were doing this on our own. It was just the two
of us. Twenty minutes later, she got up from bed and grabbed me
desperately and said, "Rui, I think I'm going to die!". She was
beginning to have the Near Death Experience, which I had didn't know
about. I confess I was very frightened. I kept looking at her
constantly, for the next 8 hours, to make sure she breathed. Twenty
hours after taking the ibogaine, she woke up. Five hours later, we
were both having fun driving karts in the Algarve. Sandra cured
herself forever. Six months later, she took 0.5g of the same lot of
ibogaine, as a maintenance.

Very briefly, this is what happened. We are now living very well
together and have an 19-day-old baby boy. All thanks to ibogaine and
the people who helped.

Meanwhile, I have been reading your book "Ibogaine - The Staten
Island Report". It is absolutely brilliant and amazing how every
single little detail is described. Only now I found out Nick had your
e-mail address. Because I am writing something on ibogaine which I
intend to divulge, and the book raised me some questions, I wrote to
Howard Lotsof asking a few things. Since he didn't answer, I thought
perhaps he didn't want to reveal his opinion. Now Nick told me he has
been ill and has not corresponded much lately. Certainly you are the
best position to help me. I have some doubts concerning Frank Vocci
and Herb Kleber. These two were responsible for obstacles and delays
in ibogaine development. However, I see their names as participants
in last year's Ibogaine Conference held in NYU School of Medicine.
What can I think about them? Are they in favour of ibogaine today?

As for methadone being called "adolphine", I read this is not
correct. Methadone was release into the market with the commercial
name of "dolophine". I am not an advocate of methadone, though.
Methadone was officially admitted as a therapy in Portugal in the mid
90's, but only two years ago did the politicians and media publicize
it, partly due to the mayor of Lisbon, João Soares, son of former
president of the republic Mario Soares, wanting to show the people he
was interested in solving the problem of addicts in Lisbon. In
Portugal we have official figures of 50-60,000 addicts, though it is
estimated that drugs afflict near 100,000. For a population which is
a little less than 10 million, the status quo is not very bright.

With best regards,

Rui Simões
relsimoes@...

From: William Sarill <foozleman@...>
To: dana@...
Subject: Neuroprotection by NMDA Receptor Antagonists
Status:

Hi Dana. Thought you'd be interested in a paper in the lastest issue of
the Journal of Neuroscience which says that transient use of NMDA
receptor antagonists--specifically MK-801, but by implication ibogaine
and harama alkaloids--preconditions cortical neurons to withstand
neurotoxic injuries, including that brought about by oxygen-glucose
deprivation (hypoxia/hypoglycemia). A 30-minute exposure of MK-801 was
sufficient to provide neuroprotection if applied up to 96 hours before a
lethal insult. Hmm. Ninety six hours = 4 days. More than enough time for
JC to survive, re-awaken, and climb off the cross. For the abstract, see
http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/20/19/7183.

--Bill

*****!!!MAY 5, 2001 SPACE ODYSSEY: 28 CONFIRMED CITIES!!!*********

Albuquerque: "robb" <robb1@...>

Anchorage:  Fryderyk Frontier <fredfrontier@...>

Auckland: norml@...

Austin:  <mmmtexas@...>  "Tracey Hayes"  512-493-7357

Berlin: <martin@...>

Burlington: "Robert J. Melamede" <rmelamed@...>

Chico: MP Jimmy Ogle <mpogle@...>

DesMoines: <iowanorml@...>

Detroit:  "jude joseph" <acididea@...>

Edinborough: "Linda Hendry" <linda@...>

Frankenthal:  helmut holtzheimer <movemus@...>

Halifax: Jimmy Dorey <jdorey@...>

Hilo: Roger Christie <pakaloha@...>

Jerusalem: Joseph 058-558-984.

Lansing: Kathy Kennedy 517-628-3915

London: Chris 01144-171-637-7467

Montreal:  Marc-Boris St-Maurice <blocpot@...>

Nashville: "Howie & Marivuana Leinoff" <torml@...>

New Orleans:  "Ashley The Fearless" <fearless_420@...>

Nimbin: "rebelart" <rebelart@...>

Orlando:  Rudi703@...

Oslo: <rzr@...> / www: home.powertech.no/belkjekk/mmm/2001/

Portland:   pdxnorml@...

Richmond: "Roy B. Scherer" <rscherer@...>, zariela
dread <zariela069@...>

Santa Cruz: DdC <dendecannabist@...>

St. Louis: Global Peace Cafeneh <globalpeas@...>

Tampa:   (813)779-2551

PLEASE EMAIL YR COMPLETE CONTACT PHONE NUMBER, NAME & EMAIL FOR LISTING HERE!

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Patrick K. Kroupa" <digital@...>
> >To: <nick.sandberg@...>
> >Sent: 28 September 2000 05:29
> >Subject: [IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] Re:
> >[IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] What is
> >
>
>
>
> Ihave now almost 20 letters saying nearly the same thing and Iwant to say
> thanks again. The same thing being find things you like to do besides heroin
> and go do them. It makes sense. Advice taken its hard sometimes, no its hard
> a lot of the time.
>
> Patrick i've read some of what you wrote and no way am I doing that. If you
> think ibogaine is weak as a 'headchange tool and spiritual integrater' and
> follow it up with 2 or 3 mg of lsd because that will 'blow apart ego
> boundaries' you are you and you are not me. ibogaine was not 'weak' to me,
> it was hell. I would rather spend 10 years in NA meetings then eat 20 or 30
> doses of lsd. I hate acid its even more awful then ibogaine. I know u didnt
> recommend that to me but even doing 2 or 3 doses is awful and I dont want to
> do acid or ketamine or anything that makes me 'trip' i dont like it.
>
> Nick yes the us and them people are everywhere. I'm not a us and them person
> I think whatever floats your boat is fine. I am not sure if its because i'm
> repressed or in denial or whatever people have said to me through mail but
> you, patrick, are both saying that there has to be something wrong with me
> if I like to get high. Maybe im not you guys and i dont like pschedelic
> drugs, I like heroin. I want to stay off it and will try what I can if i
> have to do ibogaine again i will do it after that I dont know what yet but
> it wont be lsd. all ibogaine had reminded me of is how much i hate
> pschedelics and dont want to ever do them.
>
>
>

High and low, pleasure and pain are complex concepts. When does someone
cross the barrier between getting high and not being low? To my mind,
heroin is the kind of high akin to that which someone gets when they get
to put down a heavy load they've been carrying around.

The drug is simply a painkiller, the whole mystique that has built up
around it is absolutely ridiculous. If someone finds they need to use a
painkiller as strong as heroin several times daily, there are going to
be basic emotional issues that can be usefully looked at.

We live in a culture that is, at an emotional level, quite ridiculously
crude and brutal. In nearly all so-called 'primitve' societies infants
are treated like gods for their first five years or so, because time has
taught all 'primitive' people that we are incredibly vulnerable at this
age.

In the West, children are, for the most part, so systematically
brutalised emotionally that by the time they reach school age they will
already be armouring strongly, both physically and mentally. We learn
quickly to adopt thinking and behavioural changes that can allow us to
manage our lives without being subjected to more pain, and the type of
modifications that we use frequently determine life path. I've an aging
piece exploring this concept further up at
http://www.ibogaine.co.uk/repression.htm

The heroin addict is in no way fundamentally different from the rest of
society. He or she is simply someone who either cannot make thinking and
behavioural alterations work, or cannot make them work sufficiently well
enough to effect mood stability, and so simply drifts into taking a drug
to do the same.

When society is viewed as simply a pain-management tool, it's remarkable
how quickly problems both individual and cultural can be treated. But
when the ego is left any route by which it can keep up the bullshit,
nothing happens. When the individual is left no possibility of
maintaining the web of lies it has built up throughout a lifetime of
pain management, healing always takes place.

Nick

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear list
That no one here made any comment whatsoever to this letter is in my eyes
quite amazing.But then maybe the contemporary electronic brainwashing works
better than I could imagine in my wildest dreams.Or maybe the list is
filtered/censored these days.In fact I have not seen anything written here
since the 26th september.Is there anybody out there still alive?
                                                Carl

>From: "Katalyst" <katalyst@...>
>Reply-To: ibogaine@...
>To: ibogalab@...
>Subject: [IBOGAINE] RE: [IBOGAINE] Dr Mash
>Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 01:10:34 CEST
>
>Nick,
>
>As an Exec Producer of a 2-hour documentary special on CIA drug smuggling
>in
>1997, and in the course spending more than four years in intensive research
>on the study of CIA methods of covert control in a variety of areas, I'm
>afraid that this is PRECISELY - I mean textbook 'standard operating
>procedure' for a CIA effort to this effect.
>
>Your logical sensibilities in expressing your reservations about it
>(below),
>is ALSO PRECISELY the intended "plausible deniability" that keeps the CIA
>in
>business, and in plentiful taxpayer-funded comfort, while the general
>public
>remains contendedly ignorant.
>
>I might also add, that the intricate and intimate relationship between
>political fund raising, and sustaining various covert CIA cash flows - when
>considered with the position of D. Mash's husband as the Democratic fund
>raiser for Dade County Florida (nary a spot on the US map has been more
>awash in illicit drug money than this - even NY City cannot compete).
>
>St. Kitts itself has a long history of CIA activity, and a very small
>population to camoflage it.
>
>There was clearly an agenda at work on the part of Mash, as evidenced by
>the
>repeated attempts to sue Howard and clear the ibogaine patents, each in
>different judicial systems around the globe.  Even after having his patents
>effectively stolen by Mash, Howard - the true activist that he is - had
>never initiated actions against Mash (note, his eventual actions were
>COUNTER-suits).  There was simply no logical reason for a woman in her
>position to expend such resources and efforts without another agenda at
>work
>somewhere.
>
>The recent entry of the Howard Hughes Medical Foundation into the picture,
>coming immediately on the heels of Howard's defeat in the courts is only
>coincidental to those who have not witnessed the chain of events as they
>have unfolded over many years.
>
>It always comes back to the few golden questions:  Who benefits?  Who
>gains?
>Who profits?  Follow the money.....   Only when one grasps the reality that
>the largest market share in the illegal drug industry is held by a very
>small group of people who all happen to have long CIA histories, do we
>recognize the simplicy of the grand scheme.  Who stands to gain the most by
>continued containment of ibogaine?  The merchants of the drug trade.  My
>friends, the world's largest and most lucrative business (over $300 billion
>a year, at last estimate) - trafficking in illegal drugs, is HIDING IN
>PLAIN
>SIGHT.  How else could it exist without being tripped over repeatedly?  Not
>many of those "stumbled upon a huge cache" type of drug busts these days,
>huh?
>
>I have only mentioned the most obvious of connections here, and in only
>vague and general terms, but one could gain a great deal of understanding
>of
>at Mike Ruppert's website - copvcia.com
>
>It's not paranoia, when they really ARE after you.
>
>G'day.
>
>Katheryn
>
> > I put it to you that such a course of action would be unlikely to
> > achieve the CIA's putative ambitions of suppressing ibogaine
> > development.
> >
>
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
>  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
>  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
>  containing nothing but the word HELP
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From: Nick Sandberg <nick.sandberg@...>
>Reply-To: ibogaine@...
>To: whitelight67@...
>Subject: [IBOGAINE] Re: What is
>Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:12:23 CEST
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Patrick K. Kroupa" <digital@...>
>To: <nick.sandberg@...>
>Sent: 28 September 2000 05:29
>Subject: [IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] Re:
>[IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] What is
>



Ihave now almost 20 letters saying nearly the same thing and Iwant to say
thanks again. The same thing being find things you like to do besides heroin
and go do them. It makes sense. Advice taken its hard sometimes, no its hard
a lot of the time.

Patrick i've read some of what you wrote and no way am I doing that. If you
think ibogaine is weak as a 'headchange tool and spiritual integrater' and
follow it up with 2 or 3 mg of lsd because that will 'blow apart ego
boundaries' you are you and you are not me. ibogaine was not 'weak' to me,
it was hell. I would rather spend 10 years in NA meetings then eat 20 or 30
doses of lsd. I hate acid its even more awful then ibogaine. I know u didnt
recommend that to me but even doing 2 or 3 doses is awful and I dont want to
do acid or ketamine or anything that makes me 'trip' i dont like it.

Nick yes the us and them people are everywhere. I'm not a us and them person
I think whatever floats your boat is fine. I am not sure if its because i'm
repressed or in denial or whatever people have said to me through mail but
you, patrick, are both saying that there has to be something wrong with me
if I like to get high. Maybe im not you guys and i dont like pschedelic
drugs, I like heroin. I want to stay off it and will try what I can if i
have to do ibogaine again i will do it after that I dont know what yet but
it wont be lsd. all ibogaine had reminded me of is how much i hate
pschedelics and dont want to ever do them.


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

More corres from Addiction magazine's complaint about a notice I've been
running in Addiction Today magazine.

Nick

'''''''''''''''

[me to Addiction magazine 21-9-00]

FAO:  Mrs Susan Savva

(CC: Ms Deirdre Boyd, Editor, Addiction Today.)

re: ibogaine

BY FAX AND E-MAIL

21st September 2000


Dear Mrs Savva,

The editor of Addiction Today, Ms Deirdre Boyd, has contacted me asking
if I might reply to some comments you have recently made regarding their
carrying of my notice advising readers of the existence of the chemical
dependence interrupter, ibogaine.

I forwarded copies of the correspondence to Dr Kenneth Alper of the New
York University School of Medicine, Depts of Psychiatry and Neurology, a
leading researcher in this field, and he has this morning sent me a
preliminary reply, which I copy below. I have further contacted Dr
Deborah Mash, Professor of Neurology and Molecular and Cellular
Pharmacology at the University of Miami School of Medicine, who runs the
Healing Visions clinic in St Kitts offering ibogaine treatment to drug
dependents, who, I believe, has personally supervised over 100
treatments, and is the author of a paper presenting 32 of the same
earlier this summer. I will forward any reply from Professor Mash should
I receive one.

In addition I do hope you will contact me if you require any further
information on this exciting treatment. It is one that, in my opinion,
could
revolutionise the treatment of drug dependency, and all efforts to bring
it to the notice of the relevant bodies, from whatever angle, are to be
applauded.

Best wishes

Nick Sandberg    http://www.ibogaine.co.uk









from: Kenneth Alper
to: Nick Sandberg
20-9-2000

Dear Nick:

I'd be glad to help. Sounds like a good opportunity. Please let me know
what you'd like me to do specifically. For starters, you should be aware
that there are now two independent case series that have been presented
regarding ibogaine's effectiveness in acute opoid withdrawal in humans.
One series of 33 patients  I have published, the other series of 32
patients was presented by Deborah Mash at the annual meeting of the
College of Problems on Drug Dependence (CPDD) held this past June. Here
is a summary of the two series with literature citations:

Alper et al., (1999) summarized 33 cases treated for the indication of
opioid detoxification in non-medical settings under open label
conditions. A focus on opioid withdrawal may offset some of the
methodological limitations of the informal treatment context because it
is a clinically robust phenomenon occurring within a relatively limited
time frame yielding reasonably clear outcome measures. The lay
"treatment guides" who reported on the case series might reasonably be
expected to be able to assess the presence or absence of the relatively
clinically obvious and unambiguous features of opioid withdrawal.
The subjects in this series of cases reported an average daily use of
heroin of 0.64 ± 0.50 grams, primarily by the intravenous route, and
received an average dose of ibogaine of 19.3 ± 6.9 mg/kg (range of 6 to
29 mg/kg). Resolution of the signs of opioid withdrawal without further
drug seeking behavior was observed within 24 hours in 25 patients, and
was sustained throughout the 72 hour period of post?treatment
observation. Other outcomes included drug seeking behavior without
withdrawal signs (4 patients), drug abstinence with attenuated
withdrawal signs (2 patients), drug seeking behavior with continued
withdrawal signs (1 patient), and one fatality possibly involving
surreptitious heroin use. The reported effectiveness of ibogaine in this
series suggests the need for systematic investigation in a conventional
clinical research setting.

Mash et al., (2000) recently presented data on opioid detoxification
utilizing ibogaine in 32 patients treated in St. Kitts with single
dosages ranging from 600 to 1200 mg. Physician ratings of withdrawal
signs and symptoms indicated efficacy and appeared to confirm the case
series reported by Alper et al (1999). Reductions of measures of
depression and craving remained significantly reduced one month after
treatment.

Alper, KR, Lotsof, HS, Frenken, GMN, Luciano, DJ, and Bastiaans, J
(1999). Treatment of Acute Opioid Withdrawal with Ibogaine. American
Journal on Addictions 8: 234-242.

Mash DC, and Kovera K (2000). Ibogaine is effective in blocking opiate
withdrawal symptoms: role of noribogaine. Abstracts, College of Problems
on Drug Dependence (CPDD) 62d Annual Scientific Meeting, San Juan Puerto
Rico, page 24.

'''''''''''

[from Prof Griffith Edwards, for Addiction, to NS, Deirdre Boyd and Lord
Mancroft - 27-9-00]

27 September, 2000

Ms Deirdre Boyd
Editor, Addiction Today
122A Wilton Rd
London SW12 1JZ




Dear Ms Boyd

Ibogaine

My colleague, Mrs Susan Savva, has shown me the correspondence between
herself and Mr Nick Sandberg which has been copied to you. It may be
useful
if at this point I give you some comments from the medical and research
angle.

(1) The claims being made in your journal

The claims being made in the advertisement placed in your journal were
as
follows:

"Ibogaine is a chemical dependence interrupter. It may be used to
interrupt
addiction to heroin, cocaine or tobacco. A single administration of
Ibogaine
typically allows painless withdrawal from addiction and removes the
desire
to use for between six weeks and six months."

In essence, the claims are that a single dose of ibogaine

(i) typically "allows painless withdrawal"
(ii) removes the desire to use for between six weeks and six months
(ii) is effective across a range of drugs

(2) Supporting evidence offered by Mr Sandberg

(i) through a letter from Dr Alper, Mr Sandberg draws attention to an
article published by Dr Alper and his colleagues in the American Journal
of
Addictions in 1999. This cases series was uncontrolled and in the usual
scientific terms can therefore be regarded only as preliminary and not
as a
basis for any confident claims. Follow-up appears to have been to 72
hours
and the series was restricted to opioid dependent subjects. The data
derived
from observation made by lay "treatment guides". One patient died, for
reasons "possibly involving surreptitious heroin use".


(ii) Dr Alper refers to a conference presentation (and abstract) by Dr
Mash.
According to him, this was again an open trial and directed at opioid
detoxification. Follow-up appears to have been to one month, with
claimed
reduction in depression and craving, but of course with no comparison
group.

(3) My interpretation of the scientific evidence

In my view, research at present has neither proved nor ruled out the
possibility that Ibogaine might be a drug of some clinical usefulness
and
one would do well to keep an open mind and watch the literature, and I
suspect that that would also be Dr Alper's conclusion. However, the
claims
made by Mr Sandberg seem to me to go far ahead of any evidence which he
adduces or which is to be found in the wider literature.

(4) Serving the public interest

I am writing to you as a fellow editor asking that in the public
interest
your journal adopt an ethical policy in relation to acceptance of
advertising. An advertisement for a treatment should be based on
scientific
evidence which reasonably supports the claims which are being made for
its
efficacy. Very importantly, there should also be evidence that the
treatment
does no harm to patients, either directly or by distracting them from
more
effective, safer, and tested treatments. If you doubt my judgement you
might
perhaps want to put the case to some independent authority such as the
Royal
College of Psychiatrists.

Kind regards

Professor Griffith Edwards CBE, DSc, DM, FRCP, FRCPsych

cc Mrs Susan Savva
Mr Nick Sandberg
Lord Mancroft

''''''''''''''''''''''

[from NS in reply, 29-9-00]


Mrs Susan Savva, Addiction
Cc: Ms Deirdre Boyd
Dr Deborah Mash
Dr Kenneth Alper
BY FAX AND E-MAIL

Re: My notice for ibogaine in Addiction Today

Dear Mrs Savva,

Many thanks for forwarding the letter from Professor Edwards, dated the
27th September. I would however like to point out that the notice to
which
he refers would not appear to be the one that has been running recently
in
Addiction Today, but instead, possibly, one that has run in past issues.
I have undertaken several rewrites of this notice over the eighteen
months
or so it has been running, such that it may both more accurately reflect
an
honest likely appraisal of the scientific worth of the drug, and also
entice
the interested professional reader to acquaint themselves more deeply
with
its existence. If earlier notices have been found wanting with regard to
the
first of these issues, I happily apologise to anyone who believes they
may
have been misled.

I am therefore enclosing a copy of the notice that is currently running
for
Professor Edwards appraisal. And also an abstract from Dr Deborah Mash's
latest paper, delivered at the CPDD 2000 Annual Meeting, San Juan,
Puerto
Rico, for which she uses data taken from 32 clinical subjects. I
apologise
in advance that the scientific paper to which this abstract will refer
is
still in the process of being published, but I will forward it as soon
as I
have the same.

My, admittedly unprofessional, opinion is that the balance of evidence
mounting for the clinical efficacy of ibogaine is now sufficient to
justify
the wording of the current notice in Addiction Today. But I would of
course
be quite happy to modify the same to Professor Edwards' satisfaction
should this be deemed a satisfactory means of securing everyone's
approval.
Yours sincerely


Nick Sandberg

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''

IBOGAINE IS EFFECTIVE IN BLOCKING OPIATE WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS: ROLE OF
THE
METABOLITE NORIBOGAINE

D.C. Mash, J. Pablo, C.A. Kovera , Neurology Dept, Univ. of Miami School
of
Med., Miami, FL.

Ibogaine (IBO), a naturally occurring indole alkaloid derived from the
roots
of the rainforest shrub Tabernanthe iboga, has been demonstrated to have
efficacy for the blockade of opiate withdrawal. However, it is likely
that
IBO's purported efficacy may be due to the long-acting metabolite,
because
IBO has rapid clearance from blood. IBO is O-demethylated to noribogaine
(norIBO) in both animals and humans. We have obtained observational data
on
the effects of a single-dose administration of ibogaine on mood, craving
and
withdrawal symptoms in treatment-seeking patients with chemical
dependency
on opiates (N=32). We observed significant reductions in negative health
symptoms, as well as improvements in mood and energy/vigor for the
post-ibogaine time points. Mean scores from category scales of the
HCQ-NOW29
showed significantly reduced craving for opiates post treatment.
Physician-rated assessments and subjective reports of opioid-dependent
patient volunteers demonstrated an alleviation of withdrawal symptoms
during
detoxification with IBO. While these observations suggest treatment
efficacy, the precise mechanism(s) accounting for these effects remain
uncertain. Radioligand binding screens demonstrated that norIBO has
affinity
for the 5-HT transporter (SERT) and u- and k- opiate receptors, norIBO
elevates extracellular levels of 5-HT and acts as a k- and u- agonist.
Kinetic analysis of [faxed text unclear] norIBO gave [faxed text
unclear]
values for biphasic dissociation with rapid and slow rate constants of
9.0 +
0.4 min and 3123.4 +21.1 min (-2.2 days), respectively. Kinetic assays
performed in the presence and absence of SERT occluders resulted in the
loss
of the fast dissociate rate, suggesting pseudoirreversible binding at a
second target. The slow-rate of dissociation was blocked by the addition
of
a u- agonist. The multitarget actions of norIBO may explain how a single
dose of IBO in humans blocks the opiate withdrawal syndrome.

''''''''''''''''''''

Ibogaine

Ibogaine, an indole alkaloid derived from a plant source, has been shown
to
be highly useful in the treatment of chemical dependence. A single
administration of the ibogaine typically facilitates painless withdrawal
from addiction to heroin, methadone, cocaine and alcohol.
In addition many users experience no desire to use drugs afterward for
periods ranging from a week to several months. And furthermore report
gaining useful psychological insights into the root of their drug-using
behaviour.

Ibogaine has no dependence-inducing characteristics, and thus far
appears to
be safe to use. But its development is currently held up by legal
problems
in the US.

For further information on ibogaine, call Nick on 020-7287 2828. Or
visit
www.ibogaine.co.uk

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick K. Kroupa" <digital@...>
To: <nick.sandberg@...>
Sent: 28 September 2000 05:29
Subject: [IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] Re:
[IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] What is


> The one statement I agree with 100% is: just do whatever it is that you
> need to do.  There is no universal, "correct" solution.  But being
> strung-out definitely replaces life, to cop a line from Burroughs.  If you
> just take away all the time you used to allocate to obtaining and doing
> dope, and fill it with nothing . . . then yeah, it's gonna be real hard
> not to sit around, and keep thinking 'bout heroin, until you go out and do
> it again, and again, and then summore.  That tends to be the way it works.
>
> The 12-step programs are definitely not my thing.  However, they do seem
> to work for a lotta people.  Not necessarily as a place to obtain some
> great transcendent insights into the nature of aDdIctIOn, but more like a
> place to go and have some semblance of a social life, where you can hang
> out and hook up with people who are not gonna go out and put you into a
> situation where everyone around you is getting high on something or
> another.
>
> Or get Quake III and play it, this'll give ya sumthin' to do for the next
> 6 months.  Go out and DO something, if you're so inclined read something,
> learn something -- in short: get a life.  In theory, this is the reason
> you wanna stop doing heroin.  Because really, if ya don't, then you're
> just not going to.  There is no secret alchemy that occurs when you line
> up molecule X, Y and Z, one after the other, and THAT will be what changes
> everything, and makes it completely different.  Which is what you seem to
> be looking for.
>
> Psychedelics can, and do, provide the possibility of direct and absolute
> connection to whatever spirituality, God, transcendence . . . mean to you.
> This can have a profound and lasting impact.  However . . . as with
> anything else, ultimately, it's all up to YOU.  NOTHING will just hit a
> switch and make everything totally different, if you only take enough of
> it, or combine it with that OTHER THING, and then mix in half a ton of
> crushed monkey paws, some toxic squid eyeballs, and stir it
> counter-clockwise, under a full moon, while reading from the Holy Book of
> the Arboreal Tree Sloth.
>
> Basically, just get up off your ass and TRY THINGS, eventually you'll find
> at least a few that seem to resonate for you, and help bring you into a
> positive space.
>
> Patrick
>


There's always stuff a person can do about addiction, esp heroin
addiction. But in a relatively free society, it has to be the person
themselves that initiates any strategy. And herein, of course, lies the
main barrier to healing. There are classically only very few types of
therapy that many addicts will willingly enroll themselves for.

If someone needs to inject themselves with heroin, one of the world's
strongest painkillers, three times a day, there are going to be very
basic emotional reasons why this is happening. But, because of the way
the ego typically develops in Western culture, the individual actually
using the heroin will absolutely resist examining these issues,
frequently going to quite incredible lengths to do so. This is the core
problem in any therapeutic modality, not just those directed towards
substance abuse problems.

And this is one reason why ibogaine offers such potential. As an
unlicensed medication on the fringes of legality surrounded by much
counter-culture mystique, it appeals to some drug users in a way that no
other therapy can.

The sector of the addict population, for instance, that loves stories of
Area 51, the Montauk Project and similar does so because maintaining
rigid barriers between themselves, (us), and perceived non-peer groups,
(them), is a highly effective back-up means for effecting pain-control.
The more open a mind is, the more it can transcend needs to judge,
classify or present counter-argument, the more it is open to
experiencing pain. And so closing the mind, establishing barriers,
judging and categorising are effective learned mechanisms for pain
management.

When the regular use of heroin cannnot effect sufficient pain control,
so mental strategies will invariably be adopted to bolster the effect.
Someone doing this is very unlikely to enroll for something like 12
step, because to do so would involve a partial dismantling of the
protective mental framework, and thus potentially allow pain to flood
the system.

But with ibogaine, a whole mass of these established mental protocols
are immediately overridden. Ibogaine is counter-culture. It fits into
the pain-management mental framework discussed above admirably, and can
thus reach sectors of the addict population other strategies cannot.

Nick

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The one statement I agree with 100% is: just do whatever it is that you
need to do.  There is no universal, "correct" solution.  But being
strung-out definitely replaces life, to cop a line from Burroughs.  If you
just take away all the time you used to allocate to obtaining and doing
dope, and fill it with nothing . . . then yeah, it's gonna be real hard
not to sit around, and keep thinking 'bout heroin, until you go out and do
it again, and again, and then summore.  That tends to be the way it works.

The 12-step programs are definitely not my thing.  However, they do seem
to work for a lotta people.  Not necessarily as a place to obtain some
great transcendent insights into the nature of aDdIctIOn, but more like a
place to go and have some semblance of a social life, where you can hang
out and hook up with people who are not gonna go out and put you into a
situation where everyone around you is getting high on something or
another.

Or get Quake III and play it, this'll give ya sumthin' to do for the next
6 months.  Go out and DO something, if you're so inclined read something,
learn something -- in short: get a life.  In theory, this is the reason
you wanna stop doing heroin.  Because really, if ya don't, then you're
just not going to.  There is no secret alchemy that occurs when you line
up molecule X, Y and Z, one after the other, and THAT will be what changes
everything, and makes it completely different.  Which is what you seem to
be looking for.

Psychedelics can, and do, provide the possibility of direct and absolute
connection to whatever spirituality, God, transcendence . . . mean to you.
This can have a profound and lasting impact.  However . . . as with
anything else, ultimately, it's all up to YOU.  NOTHING will just hit a
switch and make everything totally different, if you only take enough of
it, or combine it with that OTHER THING, and then mix in half a ton of
crushed monkey paws, some toxic squid eyeballs, and stir it
counter-clockwise, under a full moon, while reading from the Holy Book of
the Arboreal Tree Sloth.

Basically, just get up off your ass and TRY THINGS, eventually you'll find
at least a few that seem to resonate for you, and help bring you into a
positive space.

Patrick


  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi.  You're right in that for each addict it "takes whatever it takes," and
that seems to be a very individual road.  I took ibogaine 3 times - still
relapsed.  No doubt the ibogaine made my relapse so uncomfortable that I
knew I couldn't continue to get high, but also didn't know how to stay quit.
   I know you don't like it, but for me the 12 step road is definitely
proving to be the way for me to stay quit continuously.  I resisted the 12
step route for twenty-five years!  Why...I don't have a clue as I am not
stupid and knew that they had the highest success rate.  I was just too
stubborn and rebellious and hadn't been knocked down enough I guess.

Addictions are such a puzzle and again it seems to take whatever it takes.
It seems like if you just keep throwing stuff at it, whatever you do,
finally something softens and maybe it can end.  I only have three months
clean again, but I do feel like I may've found the lasting way to stay clean
- the "tools" as they say.  Even tho I still desire to get high often, when
I was getting high this last time there was absolutely no real enjoyment of
it and no peace whatsoever.  At least I have that peace now.  In my opinion
trying more ibogaine could help, but I agree with Jane, just keep trying
anything. I had hoped that ibogaine was that "magic pill" too, but even tho
it made a lasting difference, it definitely wasn't the whole answer.

Best of wishes and don't give up.
Sandy


>From: "White Light" <whitelight67@...>
>Reply-To: ibogaine@...
>To: swbooker@...
>Subject: [IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] Re:
>[IBOGAINE] What is
>Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:42:54 CEST
>
>
>
>
>>From: Jellking@...
>>Reply-To: ibogaine@...
>>Um, just reading this, I understand your frustration, but it sounds a bit
>>like what you're saying is you don't really want to quit, though you would
>>pay a lot to want to.  That's a tough one.  I sympathise, totally, but
>>your
>>frustration at this group seems a bit weird to me.  One thing I've learned
>>from reading this group's messages is that ibogaine is a bit different for
>>everyone.  'Don't despair, would be my advice, but also don't think
>>there's
>>a
>>magic pill that will make you not want anymore.  Not having detox is not
>>the
>>same thing as never wanting the drug again.  Just work with the concepts
>>till
>>something occurs to you, would be my advice,  some of these people have
>>amazing stories to tell of courage and sticking with it.   I'm not really
>>one
>>of them, but I hear you.  love jane
>>
>
>If i had alot of money I would give it I don't! For the people who do it
>doesnt look to make much difference. I would like to say thanks to all the
>people who took the time to write me e mail with suggestions it is
>appreciate.
>I think what I'm saying is ibogaine worked for being addicted. I find
>myself
>inthat mindset now of 'now what'? And i'm looking at what people who had
>muchworse problems then I did have done to stay stopped. Except it doesnt
>look like it works like that because all the answers I get are different.
>The only one thing almost everybody hasin common from the NA to some people
>here is they believe in whatever it is they believe in. Some people are, i
>donnt want to say in a bad way but *out there* dana beal has PKD, patrick
>kroupa is tlaking about i dont know what but he sees lights all the time
>and
>the purple light fixes everything, nick sandberg is writing articles about
>the same thing.
>
>the difference between all of u and NA is in na they keep telling you to do
>all this to get intouch with your 'higher power' you guys are *on* all the
>time. but all you guys looklike u have done way more drugs or psychedlic
>drugs then i ever have. or can imagine wanting to ever do.
>I didnt like ibogaine I didnt have a good time doing it and would never
>jsut
>keep taking it because i thought it was fun like some of you.
>
>Im trying to understand the now what part and how to get to the other side.
>thanks
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
>http://profiles.msn.com.
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
>and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
>FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
>containing nothing but the word HELP
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

Just a reminder:
The meeting in Tjechie will go on for sure, there seemed to be some doubts about
it.
info: www.ibohelp.com


Henk

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

White Light wrote:

> So I'm having some trouble trying to follow his map and am wondering if
> mitragynine after ibogaine by itself will have some booster effect?

No. The concept of mitragynine is completely different to ibogaine. Ibogaine is
single administration. Mitragynine on the other hand binds directly to the
neighbouring receptor site and also the one that heroin binds to. This instantly
eliminates the craving, as the receptor site is filled (for a few hours).
Mitragynine itself is however non-addictive (habit forming over time in some
individuals though) and can then be stopped at any time without causing
withdrawal
symptoms. Basically it creates a break from heroin, but does nothing to change
your mind about it (kinda like naltrexone treatment). if you don't have a life
to
go back to (or to start), then this break will be of no use.
It is also highly useful for people who want to gain control over their habit
without stopping it.

> Nat, I looked it up and of course its selling for $1,700 for a small
> plant, which isn't going to make me any 15 100cc doses unless I want to
> spend $15,000 on mitragynine or go to thailand.

We have been tissue culturing this plant for the last year and have established
a
small plantation. We don't expect any harvest till later this year (very small)
or
next year. This is the fastest we can make this plant available. if people want
to
grow their own, we also sell the cultured plants and potted plants from our site
for much lesss than $1,700 ;-).  It's a fast grower. There is plenty of info for
this plant available on our site too. I am intrigued who is selling this for
$1,700 please.

> would dosing with ibo again by itself help me?

You are in the period after the initial ibo treatment arent' you? In that case a
small amount of ibogaine every couple of weeks would maintain that residual
effect
that keeps many people away from using again. But essentially it is the way you
structure your life that will do the best part of stopping the cravings.

*Torsten*

=============================================
Visit our Website at http://www.shaman-australis.com
We sell many rare ethnobotanicals.
Information on over 100 ethnobotanical species including many cacti.
Smoking paraphernalia, growing items and books available.
Exchange seeds and information on our notice board.


  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From: Jellking@...
>Reply-To: ibogaine@...
>Um, just reading this, I understand your frustration, but it sounds a bit
>like what you're saying is you don't really want to quit, though you would
>pay a lot to want to.  That's a tough one.  I sympathise, totally, but your
>frustration at this group seems a bit weird to me.  One thing I've learned
>from reading this group's messages is that ibogaine is a bit different for
>everyone.  'Don't despair, would be my advice, but also don't think there's
>a
>magic pill that will make you not want anymore.  Not having detox is not
>the
>same thing as never wanting the drug again.  Just work with the concepts
>till
>something occurs to you, would be my advice,  some of these people have
>amazing stories to tell of courage and sticking with it.   I'm not really
>one
>of them, but I hear you.  love jane
>

If i had alot of money I would give it I don't! For the people who do it
doesnt look to make much difference. I would like to say thanks to all the
people who took the time to write me e mail with suggestions it is
appreciate.
I think what I'm saying is ibogaine worked for being addicted. I find myself
inthat mindset now of 'now what'? And i'm looking at what people who had
muchworse problems then I did have done to stay stopped. Except it doesnt
look like it works like that because all the answers I get are different.
The only one thing almost everybody hasin common from the NA to some people
here is they believe in whatever it is they believe in. Some people are, i
donnt want to say in a bad way but *out there* dana beal has PKD, patrick
kroupa is tlaking about i dont know what but he sees lights all the time and
the purple light fixes everything, nick sandberg is writing articles about
the same thing.

the difference between all of u and NA is in na they keep telling you to do
all this to get intouch with your 'higher power' you guys are *on* all the
time. but all you guys looklike u have done way more drugs or psychedlic
drugs then i ever have. or can imagine wanting to ever do.
I didnt like ibogaine I didnt have a good time doing it and would never jsut
keep taking it because i thought it was fun like some of you.

Im trying to understand the now what part and how to get to the other side.
thanks


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message -----
From: <HSL123@...>
To: <nick.sandberg@...>
Sent: 22 September 2000 19:38
Subject: [IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] RE: [IBOGAINE] Dr Mash


> Dear Nick,
>
> There is a considerable difference between having published and going to
> publish.

Hi Howard,

Well, it's a point of semantics and a necessity of having a time-limited
existence, possibly reinforced if individuals have previously promised
to publish data and then not done so. Has Dr Mash done this?

  I have
>  some knowledge of the abstract by Mash covering 32 patients and have no
> doubt that any paper Mash publishes will be well done.  The paper/abstract
> you are discussing while possibly mentioning noribogaine data will not
> provide any information on the administration of noribogaine, they key
> missing information on that drug's value, so once
> again we will be left in the dark.
>

I'm afraid I don't know whether Dr Mash has experimented with actually
administering noribogaine to patients. When she came to the UK last year
to speak, I got the impression that she hadn't. She mentioned the
possibility of the drug potentially being useful in derma-patch form, as
with nicotine.

> Concerning your perception of what my comments may be concerning Mash, I
> think you should leave that to the evaluation of any comments I may make and
> not to your
> anticipation of what comments I might make.  No offense meant.
>

None taken. I'm happy to apologise if I pre-judged any issues.

> Concerning Mash's papers I am in agreement that for the most part they are
> exceptionally well written.
>
> Howard

The concepts of 'microcosm' and 'macrocosm' are used in Western and
Eastern esoteric traditions to replace the exoteric, (mundane), notions
of objectivity and subjectivity, and essentially postulate a massive
degree of symbolic correspondance between what occurs to humans and what
occurs to the world they see around them. Bearing this in mind it can be
useful to examine how a drug affects the body, whether concieved of as a
physio- and neurological mechanism or a psychological structure, and how
the same drug makes its way onto the global marketplace.

Ibogaine, with its ability to allow the individual to descend into the
depths of the subconscious with sense of self relatively intact, is of
necessity therefore frequently a fairly brutal, purgative experience,
requiring much unfriendly interaction between symbolically opposed,
conflicting aspects of the psyche prior to some form of catharsis, or
release, being achieved.

The battles between the 'anima' and 'animus', the female and male
aspects of the Higher Self, for control over the awakening individual
are important aspects of the Jungian model of self-development. And if
ibogaine is going to make it into the public domain, all the same stuff
is going to have to be worked through.

Nick

''''''''''''''''''''''''

[kindly forwarded by an Irish lady]

I've just  watched an episode of the Incredible Hulk. I did not catch
which episode, but it was screened on RTE 1 Irish primary TV Station
2.30pm Sat the 23/09/00. Bruce Banner {the Hulk} teamed up with a lady
doc {Dr White} in search for some illusive plant which was to cure him.
The plant they came up with was IBOGAINE. But as it turns out it was a
long shot and the plant was extinct, so they parted ways and Bruce
carried on alone as usual. It kind of brings a new meaning to the
Incredible Hulk doesn't it?

yours sincerley Catherine & Aaron.

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a message dated 9/25/00 9:22:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
whitelight67@... writes:

<< I have problems with NA,I don't want therapy.I want to get to wherehes
  at. But reading someof what he wrote after ibo 2 or 3, he also mixedin
  ketamine, X LSD, 2c-b? it sounds like every psychedelic on earth and ended
  with mitragynine? So I'm having some trouble trying to follow his map and am
  wondering if mitragynine after ibogaine by itself will have some booster
  effect? >>
Um, just reading this, I understand your frustration, but it sounds a bit
like what you're saying is you don't really want to quit, though you would
pay a lot to want to.  That's a tough one.  I sympathise, totally, but your
frustration at this group seems a bit weird to me.  One thing I've learned
from reading this group's messages is that ibogaine is a bit different for
everyone.  'Don't despair, would be my advice, but also don't think there's a
magic pill that will make you not want anymore.  Not having detox is not the
same thing as never wanting the drug again.  Just work with the concepts till
something occurs to you, would be my advice,  some of these people have
amazing stories to tell of courage and sticking with it.   I'm not really one
of them, but I hear you.  love jane

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I get a lotta mail.  I try to respond to all of it as soon as possible.
I will give you a more, uhm, in-depth reply through email inna minute or
500.  Please do not mail-bomb me and send the same message 5 times.

I was . . . a less than ideal success story.  Shit happens, being in
"recovery" seems to entail gossiping a lot, and talking shit 'bout other
people, but, so, what's new.  Whatever.

You're getting your timeline wrong.  Much of what you're reading is from
1991-92 I think.  I did ketamine after Ibogaine 1, not LSD or 2C-B.

There is a 99% chance that tha shit from Thailand IS mitragynine.
Whatever else they may mix into it, I dunno.  A single dose amounts to
something like this:  relaxing and being mellow, starting to trip
very mildly, seeing tracers, then going full-out, then coming down a few
hours later and being completely unable to sleep, laying in bed staring at
the ceiling, covered in sweat, and basically . . . speeding.

I would not recommend doing it for 15 days inna row, at anything
approaching the doses I mentioned.  I did this with another Priest there,
but of course, he had tolerance, I did not.  On the other hand, I'm an
idiot, so I just kept going.  <Shrug>

         -       -       -       -       -       -       -       -       -

| would dosing with ibo again by itself help me?

Short answer:  Yes.

         -       -       -       -       -       -       -       -       -

"Recovery" is very simple.  Wander around in red for a while, do whatever
ya have to do to get out of it, through green, hit gold -- which for me
usta be a real bitch, hadda kinda slide in sideways off compassion and
empathy to hit love, blue is easy, align it all up and reach purple.  The
eyes blow open, everything re-aligns itself, say hello to what you really
are.

As long as you remain in-tune with the purple shit, it's all-good, even
when it's not.  If you consistently remain out of touch with it, you will
drift, and the hole in your soul, is gonna get real hungry again.

laters,

Patrick

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From: Dana Beal <dana@...>


>>
>I believe it was mitragynine. I was first told about it by another
>person from ACT UP when I was active in ACT UP. Why do you want to
>take it? Didn't Ibogaine work?
>

I'm asking because I did ibogaine and I stayed clean for 4 months now then I
chipped, then I chipped again and the cycles are getting closer together and
I'm worried.
I feel *exactly* like Kroupa described 'heroin heroin HEROIN'. I looked up
and read some of the material from his coming book and all his past things,
which is hard to do because so much hits for him and most of it is hacking
*thank you I am not stupid I know how to look up mitragynine if I know what
to call it. Looking up 'that thing from Thailand' doesn't work as well* I
have been in chatrooms in the last two days where people described him as
'set on self-destruct' and voted most likely to OD. After ibogaine 1 he got
off at san juan and left with two other girls from treatment and went and
got high. Paying that amount of money to detox and then blowing it 5 minutes
off the plane says insane or heavy addict.

I have problems with NA,I don't want therapy.I want to get to wherehes
at. But reading someof what he wrote after ibo 2 or 3, he also mixedin
ketamine, X LSD, 2c-b? it sounds like every psychedelic on earth and ended
with mitragynine? So I'm having some trouble trying to follow his map and am
wondering if mitragynine after ibogaine by itself will have some booster
effect?

Nat, I looked it up and of course its selling for $1,700 for a small
plant, which isn't going to make me any 15 100cc doses unless I want to
spend $15,000 on mitragynine or go to thailand.

thanks I didnt meant to be rude it only seems like you guys can write 20
long messages at each other when youre argueing but when someone hasa
question related to the topic there was silence, I sent mail 3 days ago to
kroupa and have no reply.

would dosing with ibo again by itself help me?
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Not to be rude but for the third or fourth time I'm asking.
>
>What is that thing from Thailand. The medecine, whatever it is, what
>does it do, where do I get more info about it.  Neither Patrick
>Kroupa or Dana Beal have responded to me.
>
>Thank you
>
I believe it was mitragynine. I was first told about it by another
person from ACT UP when I was active in ACT UP. Why do you want to
take it? Didn't Ibogaine work?

Dana/cnw


  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--- White Light <whitelight67@...> wrote:
>
> Not to be rude but for the third or fourth time I'm
> asking.
>
> What is that thing from Thailand. The medecine,
> whatever it is, what does it
> do, where do I get more info about it.  Neither
> Patrick Kroupa or Dana Beal
> have responded to me.

Hummm, I don't know much about the stuff you are
interested in but I know how to do a search on the
net.

Hopefully, this is what you are interested in.

http://www2.gol.com/users/isett/features.pages/drugtemple.html

I also searched some of the ibogaine archives at
egroups and found this;

http://www.egroups.com/message/ibogaine/311

Maybe the poster can fill you in on the details, try
e-mailing him.

Brett


>
> Thank you
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own
> public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.
>
>
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@...
> with the subject blank
>  and with the body containing nothing but the two
> words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
>  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to
> listproc@... with the body
>  containing nothing but the word HELP
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not to be rude but for the third or fourth time I'm asking.

What is that thing from Thailand. The medecine, whatever it is, what does it
do, where do I get more info about it.  Neither Patrick Kroupa or Dana Beal
have responded to me.

Thank you


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Delivered-To: dana@...
>Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 23:44:45 -0500
>From: Ben Masel <bmasel@...>
>X-Accept-Language: en
>To: "dpfwi@..." <dpfwi@...>, lpwi <lpwi@egroups.com>,
>         drctalk@...
>Subject: Meth Bill on Calendar in House
>Status:
>
>The Methamphetamine and Club Drug AntiProliferation Act has been placed
>on the Calendar for action by the full House of Representatives.
>
>With the Censorship and Secret Search warrants removed, it's still
>pretty ugly, particularly as regards Ecstacy sentences.
>
>Upon passage (inevitable) it heads to Conference Committee, for
>reconcilliation with the Senate version passed last December, where the
>struck clauses could reappear.
>
>full text of House version as amended:
>http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c106:2:./temp/~c106Wc4TQ2::
>
>ben


  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

When did the ibogaine list start?

Dana/cnw

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please do not confuse this with the IBOGAINE Lecturer wanted post,
this is a separate event.

Hello Friends, I would like to invite you all to come to the Breitenbush
Mushroom Festival between October 26th and October 29th in Oregon.

This will be a GREAT event an Experience for everyone. There are several
speakers who will be explaining the relationship between mushrooms and
religion, consciousness and art. As we are all from different
backgrounds and personal experience this subject will be approached from
different viewpoints which will make this a VERY interesting gathering.
Plus it is being held in a pristine wilderness HOT-SPRINGS resort which
will be very relaxing and therapeutic in itself. I look forward to
seeing you there. Regards, Jim

Come join us! See more information on my site:
http://www.jamesarthur.yage.net

The resort website: http://www.breitenbush.com
or call them at 1-503-854-3314


Breitenbush Hotsprings Mushroom Faire

October 26 - 29
Wild Mushrooms ‘00
The 17th Annual Breitenbush Mushroom Gathering

Professional mycologists, amateurs, and scholars gather to celebrate
one of Breitenbush’s exceptional events.  Includes * Forays into
the Ancient Forest to find and identify mushrooms (bring your camera) *
I.D. Tables showing edible, poisonous, and psychoactive species *
Workshops/Lectures covering cultivation, hands on identification,
Truffels, cooking with mushrooms, and many more * The Wild Mushroom
Tasting.

Hosted by distinguished faculty with scholarship, experience, and
soaring wit.

John Allen is an expert on the hallucinogenic mushrooms of the world.
He has written many small publications on the identification of these
mushrooms. He will give a talk on the distribution and classification
of hallucinogenic mushrooms around the world, and another talk on
mushroom art throughout history.
http:mjshroomer.yage.net

James Arthur, Ethnomycologist, Shaman, and author of "Mushrooms and
Mankind," will discuss Mushroom usage by a wide range of human
cultures and the impact on society, psychology and spirituality. His
second lecture (Sunday) entitled "The Pharmacratic Inquisition" will
examine the current war on drugs as well as oppression, persecution
and prosecution of those who use and have used plant allies
(Shamanism).
http://www.jamesarthur.yage.net

Patrice Benson, renowned in Seattle cooking circles for her knowledge
of mushrooms and how to cook them!  Radio gourmet Mauny Kaseburg
calls Patrice the “Marquessa of Mushrooms” and has featured several
of Patrice’s recipes on her programs.

Jim Berlstein, former trustee and notorious instigator with Puget
Sound Mycological Society. His talk entitled “An Idiot For Every
Mushroom: Unwise Mycophagy and Other Stories” combines excellent
photography, morbid humor, and toxicology into a highly educational
and entertaining introduction to mushrooming in the Pacific Northwest.

Ed Foy, a member of both the Puget Sound and Oregon Mycological
Societies.  Ed has held the cultivation chair at PSMS and has taught
cultivation at Discover U in Seattle and basic and advanced
techniques to PSMS and OMS members.

Dr. Bryce Kendrick, author of “The Fifth Kingdom” textbook
and CD-ROM. Dr. Kendrick was named as a Distinguished Professor Emeritus
at the University of Waterloo in 1994.

Paul Kroger,  president of the Vancouver Mycological Society and the
Pacific Northwest Key Counsel.  With 20 years of mushroom
identification experience, his skills in this area are well known and
respected.

Taylor Lockwood, world traveler and mushroom “portrait photographer”.
Mr. Lockwood will present his famous multimedia slide show
“Treasures From The Kingdom of Fungi,” a program of breathtakingly
beautiful, exquisitely photographed mushroom slides synchronized with
classical music.

Dr. Jim Trappe, Professor of Forest Science, Botany and Plant
Pathology, at Oregon State University in Corvallis. A leading truffle
expert, Dr. Trappe has amazed and delighted audiences in the past,
with lectures on the role of fungi in ecosystems, and on his
discoveries of the complex interaction between truffles and flying
squirrels.

BEGINS: Thursday dinner  ENDS: Sunday lunch  COST:  $295 (includes
cabin, meals, 24 hour use of hot tubs, and workshop fees) PARTIAL
STAY: (if space after 9/29) $235  DEPOSIT: $205 INFO & REG: 503-854-3314
http://www.breitenbush.com


Where and What is Breitenbush?

Located on 87 acres adjacent to the spectacular Mount Jefferson
Wilderness of the Oregon Cascades, Breitenbush is a state of mind as
much as it is a retreat, a community and an experiment in worker-owned
cooperative business.  Only two hours from the Portland International
Airport, Breitenbush feels like a world apart.  Surrounded by scenic
mountains and ancient forests, Breitenbush is a wildlife sanctuary
with healing arts center, natural hot springs, steam sauna, mineral
baths, glaciated river (which provides all of the electricity), historic
lodge, innovative and beautiful workshop spaces, a sacred sanctuary,
green house, swimming holes, and miles of hiking trails.

Your program fee includes workshop registration, lodging in a cozy,
rustic cabin, three delicious vegetarian meals daily, 24 hour use of
the hot springs, hot tubs and mineral steam sauna, and free access to
the Daily Well Being programs (such as mediation, yoga, and chanting).

--
Eric Ellis
Events/Marketing
Breitenbush Hot Springs
P.O. Box 578
Detroit, OR  97342
503-854-3312
ellis@...
http://www.breitenbush.com

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello List, I will be giving a slide presentation in Berkeley, Ca. in
November and have the ability to add another lecturer along with me. As
I originally stated that my lecture would be 2 speakers. So I would like
to offer the slot to someone in the Bay Area who is capable of lecturing
on Ibogaine. Unfortunately, there is no fee involved but there will be
several hundred in attendance. Is there anyone on the list that is
interested? Please get back to me ASAP as I will need to know today, if
possible.

Thanks, Jim

(James Arthur) httpp://www.jamesarthur.yage.net

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Nick,

There is a considerable difference between having published and going to
publish.  I have
  some knowledge of the abstract by Mash covering 32 patients and have no
doubt that any paper Mash publishes will be well done.  The paper/abstract
you are discussing while possibly mentioning noribogaine data will not
provide any information on the administration of noribogaine, they key
missing information on that drug's value, so once
again we will be left in the dark.

Concerning your perception of what my comments may be concerning Mash, I
think you should leave that to the evaluation of any comments I may make and
not to your
anticipation of what comments I might make.  No offense meant.

Concerning Mash's papers I am in agreement that for the most part they are
exceptionally well written.

Howard


>In a message dated 9/21/00 7:09:28 AM, nick.sandberg@... writes:
>
>>...further
>>publishing numerous peer-reviewed papers scientifically establishing
>>ibogaine's clinical efficacy?
>
>
>Nick,
>
>Cite a single peer reviewed publication by Mash in which she provides
>clinical data concerning ibogaine.
>
>Cite a single peer reviewed article in which she provides data
>indicating
>that noribogaine administration shows it to be longer acting than
>ibogaine.
>
>If I have missed that articles, thanks in advance.
>
>Howard
>
>

In a message dated 9/22/00 6:49:35 AM, nick.sandberg@... writes:

Dr Mash is publishing data from the Puerto Rico conference and ASAM now
>- 32
>human case studies from St Kitts, ibogaine and noribogaine. I haven't
>seen
>an abstract yet, but I can only imagine that this is top notch data.
>Like
>her or not, she HAS achieved the considerable feat of obtaining clinical
>data, pretty much single handedly, for a substance that is Schedule 1 in
>the
>US.
>
>Howard will no doubt assert that he could have got the job done a lot
>quicker if the Uni of Miami had played ball with NDA. He may well be
>right.
>I don't know, because I'm not in the States.


  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no such bill and will not be such a bill. It
is BOGUS. From a technical point, it could not be
enforced.

Brett
--- Anna M* <pantheon@...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "heimstadt" <child@...>
> To: <H-PSYCHOHISTORY@...>; "ph-l"
> <ph-l@...>
> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 10:00 PM
> Subject: No on Bill 602P=E-mailCharge-IMPORTANT READ
>
>
>    I guess the warnings were true. Federal Bill
>  602P 5-cents per E-mail Sent. It figures! No more
> free
>  E-mail! We knew this was coming!! Bill 602P will
>  permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent
>  charge on every delivered E-mail.
>
>    Please read the following carefully if you
>  intend to stay online, and continue using E-mail.
> The
>  last few months have revealed an alarming trend in
> the
>  Government of the United States attempting to
> quietly
>  push through legislation that will affect our use
> of
>  the Internet.
>
>    Under proposed legislation, the US Postal
>  Service will be attempting to bill E-mail users out
> of
>  "alternative postage fees." Bill 602P will permit
> the
>  Federal Government to charge a 5-cent surcharge on
>  every E-mail delivered, by billing Internet Service
>  Providers at source. The consumer would then be
> billed
>  in turn by the ISP.
>
>    Washington DC lawyer Richard Stepp is
>  working without pay to prevent this legislation
> from
>  becoming law. The US Postal Service is claiming
> lost
>  revenue, due to the proliferation of E-mail, is
>  costing nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per year.
> You
>  may have noticed their recent ad campaign: "There
> is
>  nothing like a letter."
>
>    Since the average person received about 10
>  pieces of E-mail per day in 1998, the cost of the
>  typical individual would be an additional 50 cents
> a
>  day -- or over $180 per year -- above and beyond
> their
>  regular Internet costs. Note that this would be
> money
>  paid directly to the US Postal Service for a
> service
>  they do not even provide. The whole point of the
>  Internet is democracy and noninterference. You are
>  already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail
>  because of bureaucratic efficiency. It currently
> takes
>  up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered from
> coast
>  to coast. If the US Postal Service is allowed to
>  tinker with E-mail, it will mark the end of the
> "free"
>  Internet in the United States. Our congressional
>  representative, Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested
> a
>  "$20-$40 per month surcharge on all Internet
> service"
>  above and beyond the governments proposed E-mail
>  charges.
>
>    Note that most of the major newspapers have
>  ignored the story -- the only exception being the
>  Washingtonian - which called the idea of E-mail
>  surcharge "a useful concept who's time has come"
>  (March 6th, 1999 Editorial).
>
>    Do not sit by and watch your freedom erode
>  away! Send this to E-mail to EVERYONE on your list,
>  and tell all your friends and relatives write their
>  congressional representative and say "NO" to Bill
>  602P. It will only take a few moments of your time
> and
>  could very well be instrumental in killing a bill
> we
>  do not want.
>
>    Please forward!
>
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ph-l-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: ph-l-help@...
>
>
>
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@...
> with the subject blank
>  and with the body containing nothing but the two
> words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
>  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to
> listproc@... with the body
>  containing nothing but the word HELP
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dana Beal" <dana@...>
To: <nick.sandberg@...>
Sent: 21 September 2000 21:53
Subject: [IBOGAINE] Re: [IBOGAINE] Dr Mash


> >Dear Dana,
> >
> >Your loyalty to Howard is admirable, and I respect you for it. But, with
> >regard to Dr Mash, I have to ask you whether you really think some of
> >your accusations regarding the CIA and similar actually makes sense.
>
> Okay-- set aside any affiliation of the Howard Hughs Medical
> Foundation, or the fact that Miami is a hub of rightwing Cuban
> sentiment such that even local democrats must bow before the idol of
> anti-communism.
>
> Let's just stick to Mash's avowed intent to rely for political
> support on community anti-drug coalitions --the "parent's groups,"
> and to distance herself from anyone coming from the harm reduction
> side. The problem with such groups is that they will never go to bat
> for Ibogaine. Their infallible reflex is to see Ibogaine, a Schedule
> I drug, as a stalking horse for legalization, and to begin any
> conversation by demanding that "legalizers" be excluded therefrom.
>
> >
> >When I spent time in the Far East I would sometimes go drinking around
> >the 'ex-pat' bars of Hong Kong and Bangkok. In such places one can
> >frequently meet drunken American males who will inform anyone present
> >that they are actually undercover operatives for the CIA. I was somewhat
> >disinclined to believe these tales for the simple reason that I rather
> >doubt that it is 'standard operating procedure' for CIA operatives in
> >South East Asia to immediately enter the nearest ex-pat bar, consume
> >vast quantities of beer and tell everyone present that one is working
> >for the CIA.
>
> My source is the minutes of a 1996 ONDCP meeting held in the
> immediate aftermath of the 56% vote for medical marijuana in
> California. Present were representatives of four large foundations
> which have effective policy-setting power in the American War on
> Drugs.
>
> CADCA: Community Anti-Drug Coalitions of America
>
> PDFA: Partnership for a Drug-Free America
>
> CASA: Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse
>
> The Robert Woods Johnson Foundation.
>
> The last three are really part of the same thing. Robert Woods, which
> supplies funding, is a creature of Johnson & Johnson, the
> pharmaceutical giant which has pursued a consistently rightwing
> agenda since being taken over a Polish emigre in the '80's. (She
> married in and inherited it.)
>
> PDFA was set up by James Burke, who as Johnson & Johnson exec was in
> charge of covering up tylenol/alcohol toxicity in the aftermath the
> 1983 tampering scare, and was rewarded by being made head of PDFA.
> (His brother was head of CAP CITIES/ABC television at the time).
>
> CASA was set up to provide them with sound science to back up their
> advertizing campaign when it was revealed that a lot of their ads
> were just faked (i.e., portraying the EEG of a braindead automobile
> accident victim as that of a teenager on pot).
>
> PDFA was first headquartered at 666 3rd Ave, at the New York
> headquarters of the Advertizing Association of America, which was
> actually their parent organization. If you check your history, you
> will find that the Advertizing Association was established in 1942 by
> the Office of Strategic Services  (predecessor of the CIA) to enlist
> Madison Avenue to fight Hitler. So they precede the CIA.
>
> >
> >By the same token, I have to ask you - Do you really think that,
> >entrusted with the mission of ensuring that ibogaine doesn't make it to
> >the world's junkies, Dr Mash would likely set about trying to achieve
> >this aim by - single-handedly setting up an independent ibogaine
> >treatment facility offshore, which has treated now in excess of 100
> >drug-dependents; travelling the world talking to audiences of
> >journalists, clinicians, academics and members of the public, extolling
> >the potential of ibogaine in the treatment of dependence; and further
> >publishing numerous peer-reviewed papers scientifically establishing
> >ibogaine's clinical efficacy ?
>
> That role is perfect for some one who wants to be "gatekeeper" for
> Ibogaine development. In an interview with Paul DeRienzo, for
> instance, she said that anyone giving Ibogaine outside of her clinic
> might set Ibogaine back for years, whereas it's only really moved
> forward since people started getting it via the list and
> administering it in less formal settings. Her role also enabled her
> to try to disrupt the Ibogaine Conference by pulling her people out
> rather than appear on the same stage with "that murderer" Howard
> Lotsof--and to threaten Dr. Ken with un-named dark consequences from
> her backers in the bureaucracy for proceeding anyway.
>
> [Funny thing-- no one else thinks Howard killed Nicola K. except Mash
> & co. Three Dutch courts ruled against her scientific explanation,
> which as I said, ignored a NIDA paper on blood levels of morphine in
> people who O.D. from smoking heroin, and so twisted Ibogaine
> mechanism that no one else in the field can recognize her version of
> it as the same drug.]
>
> Not only that, for the past two years she's published virtually
> nothing on Ibo. Her recent poster on efficacy for heroin addiction
> was released only in response to Dr. Ken's paper. This is in line
> with NIDA's desire, not to completely stop research, but to keep it
> out of the papers so that public pressure to release it eases off,
> while SAMHSA re-interates their Ibogaine death mantra to any
> inquiring reporters. (the principle death, of course, being Nicola K.
> But remember, Mash was also present in Leyden!) Under her agreement
> with the feds, Mash has continued to furnish NIDA with all her
> findings.
>
> >
> >I put it to you that such a course of action would be unlikely to
> >achieve the CIA's putative ambitions of suppressing ibogaine
> >development.
>
> So when the AP article came out after the conference, it was mostly
> about Mash, and they tried to mention Ken without even  talking about
> the Conference.
>
> >
> >I appreciate that you may not be able to bring yourself to support Dr
> >Mash in her work, but I do feel that you should at least consider
> >examining whether making these accusations is actually likely to be
> >useful with regard to the higher goal of actually getting this
> >medication available to those who need it.
>
> Her's is $12,000. Our's is $700. And that includes up to 10 days of
> room and board.
>
> >
> >Here in the UK, in the space of less than 2 years, myself, Hattie and
> >Chris have, by simply producing and distributing basic literature and
> >faxing info to drug-dependency units, ensured that nearly everyone in
> >the business of treating drug dependence now knows about ibogaine. To
> >the extent that virtually everyone I spoke to at last weeks Release
> >conference was asking about the drug, and that it is now the central
> >feature in a dispute between two leading addiction magazines, (see later
> >post).
>
> And how did that begin? In the summer of 1998 I came over with my
> book (Simon Witter'd already read it on website)-- a pop culture book
> in the vein of Terence McKenna, I admit, not purely academic like the
> one being prepared now.  But accurate scientifically. And in Great
> Britain, instead of being slagged as "crackpot" by Mash to every
> reporter who calls in, the story of activist support for Ibogaine got
> fair treatment in the Independent on Sunday and so-on.
>
> >
> >Think what could have been done in the US, if some of the energy
> >channelled into endlessly bitching and making accusations, had instead
> >been directed into similar courses of action.
> >
> >Nick
> >
>
>  From 1995 on, until we found another principal investigator, in the
> person of Ken Alper, there was nothing we could do to move Ibogaine
> forward. Activist input was not wanted A) because it would put
> Ibogaine back in the news, and B) because support from harm
> reductionists was seen by Mash as poisoning the well as far as the
> feds were concerned.
>
> I did travel around the U.S. in 1997 peddling books. I gave speeches
> at rallies. But there was no longer a  NIDA protocol in the works,
> and the last person I could refer anyone to was Deborah Mash.
>
> Dana/cnw

Hi Dana,

I think the thing to do is simply to wait and see what happens. I figure
we'll know in 6 - 12 months what is going on with ibogaine. If clinical
data becomes available, a lot of people are going to start to look a lot
harder at this drug. And you only need a certain consciousness threshold
to be breached and it will start to take off spontaneously.

Agonising about the past presupposes that change won't occur, it
presupposes failure. Think about this point closely and I believe you
will see that it holds water. People who agonise about the past CAN'T
change the future. Time's arrow only follows those who play for keeps
with all their heart. It has no choice.

Nick

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a message dated 9/21/00 7:09:28 AM, nick.sandberg@... writes:

>...further
>publishing numerous peer-reviewed papers scientifically establishing
>ibogaine's clinical efficacy?


Nick,

Cite a single peer reviewed publication by Mash in which she provides
clinical data concerning ibogaine.

Cite a single peer reviewed article in which she provides data
indicating
that noribogaine administration shows it to be longer acting than
ibogaine.

If I have missed that articles, thanks in advance.

Howard


----- Original Message -----
From: "Katalyst" <katalyst@...>
To: <nick.sandberg@...>
Sent: 22 September 2000 02:11
Subject: [IBOGAINE] RE: [IBOGAINE] Dr Mash


> Nick,
>
> As an Exec Producer of a 2-hour documentary special on CIA drug smuggling
in
> 1997, and in the course spending more than four years in intensive
research
> on the study of CIA methods of covert control in a variety of areas, I'm
> afraid that this is PRECISELY - I mean textbook 'standard operating
> procedure' for a CIA effort to this effect.
>

Hi K,

When Project Phoenix was shipping h out of Laos in bodybags I don't
recall
them issuing press releases, (though someone told me Shackley still
tours
lecturing on covert warfare techniques). But it's tedious getting into
an
argument over this. As I'm sure we're both aware, some people will blame
the
CIA if their milk goes off a day before the label says.

Dr Mash is publishing data from the Puerto Rico conference and ASAM now
- 32
human case studies from St Kitts, ibogaine and noribogaine. I haven't
seen
an abstract yet, but I can only imagine that this is top notch data.
Like
her or not, she HAS achieved the considerable feat of obtaining clinical
data, pretty much single handedly, for a substance that is Schedule 1 in
the
US.

Howard will no doubt assert that he could have got the job done a lot
quicker if the Uni of Miami had played ball with NDA. He may well be
right.
I don't know, because I'm not in the States.

What I do know is that there is a bigger than ever need for this
substance
to get legally available, and a rising tide of political opinion in the
UK
that is just searching for something like this it can latch onto and
carry.
Time machines aside, the past is the past, it's gone.

What I also know from doing ibogaine 4 times and having had an
increasingly
number of spiritual and kundalini experiences is that, at the end of the
day, we are all one people, (plenty will tell you that we're all in fact
one
being), and there is an absolute opportunity right here right now to
make a
massive shift in the way we are looking at a whole sector of the
population.
When a system is approaching chaotic thresholds for change, it only
needs
the tiniest leap of faith to send the whole thing up to the next level.
Ibogaine can give it the push, and if it does not one person reading
this is
going to care for an instant "who did what", or "who ripped who off", it
simply isn't going to matter.

Here in London, I'm about to embark on a mass mail, e-mail and fax-out
of an
update on ibogaine to at least 500 DDUs and a few thousand interested
parties worldwide. In addition, there is the possibility just come up to
raise money via music events for a one-day conference next year. And
further
a bizarre woman at Addiction mag, whose frenzied denial of ibogaine's
potential would seem to be an almost Heaven sent opportunity to get the
message into a core audience.

We only have to reach up and the future is ours.

Nick

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a hoax.  Please do NOT forward.

I think it's that "I guess the warnings were true," line at the beginning
that keeps this one going.


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "heimstadt" <child@...>
> To: <H-PSYCHOHISTORY@...>; "ph-l" <ph-l@...>
> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 10:00 PM
> Subject: No on Bill 602P=E-mailCharge-IMPORTANT READ
>
>
>    I guess the warnings were true. Federal Bill
>  602P 5-cents per E-mail Sent. It figures! No more free
>  E-mail! We knew this was coming!! Bill 602P will
>  permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent
>  charge on every delivered E-mail.
>
>    Please read the following carefully if you
>  intend to stay online, and continue using E-mail. The
>  last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the
>  Government of the United States attempting to quietly
>  push through legislation that will affect our use of
>  the Internet.
>
>    Under proposed legislation, the US Postal
>  Service will be attempting to bill E-mail users out of
>  "alternative postage fees." Bill 602P will permit the
>  Federal Government to charge a 5-cent surcharge on
>  every E-mail delivered, by billing Internet Service
>  Providers at source. The consumer would then be billed
>  in turn by the ISP.
>
>    Washington DC lawyer Richard Stepp is
>  working without pay to prevent this legislation from
>  becoming law. The US Postal Service is claiming lost
>  revenue, due to the proliferation of E-mail, is
>  costing nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per year. You
>  may have noticed their recent ad campaign: "There is
>  nothing like a letter."
>
>    Since the average person received about 10
>  pieces of E-mail per day in 1998, the cost of the
>  typical individual would be an additional 50 cents a
>  day -- or over $180 per year -- above and beyond their
>  regular Internet costs. Note that this would be money
>  paid directly to the US Postal Service for a service
>  they do not even provide. The whole point of the
>  Internet is democracy and noninterference. You are
>  already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail
>  because of bureaucratic efficiency. It currently takes
>  up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered from coast
>  to coast. If the US Postal Service is allowed to
>  tinker with E-mail, it will mark the end of the "free"
>  Internet in the United States. Our congressional
>  representative, Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested a
>  "$20-$40 per month surcharge on all Internet service"
>  above and beyond the governments proposed E-mail
>  charges.
>
>    Note that most of the major newspapers have
>  ignored the story -- the only exception being the
>  Washingtonian - which called the idea of E-mail
>  surcharge "a useful concept who's time has come"
>  (March 6th, 1999 Editorial).
>
>    Do not sit by and watch your freedom erode
>  away! Send this to E-mail to EVERYONE on your list,
>  and tell all your friends and relatives write their
>  congressional representative and say "NO" to Bill
>  602P. It will only take a few moments of your time and
>  could very well be instrumental in killing a bill we
>  do not want.
>
>    Please forward!
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ph-l-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: ph-l-help@...
>
>
>
>  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
>  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
>  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
>  containing nothing but the word HELP
>  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to listproc@... with the subject blank
  and with the body containing nothing but the two words: SIGNOFF IBOGAINE
  FOR INSTRUCTIONS: send an email to listproc@... with the body
  containing nothing but the word HELP
  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------