You'll notice my post never mentioned somnambulism. That is because I
too am not sure where that concept developed or how accurate it is.
Not only can I achieve numbers fading away without trance, I contend
there is practically nothing that can be achieved in trance that
cannot be achieved without formal trance in the right person. People
stop smoking, lose weight, increase their self-image, etc. all the
time without formal trance. Even something as dynamic as a human
bridge can be accomplished without a formal trance with the right
subject.

The Elman does have a built in test that you have amnesia, or that the
person has allowed the numbers to drift away. At the very least, you
have a compliant subject. That is all that is required for behavior
modification. Those who have studied it more extensively than I have
state almost unanimously that somnambulism must be achieved in order
to do true regression techniques. I don't have any legitimate research
to show either way. Some, like Jerry Kein, teach that 100% of people
can achieve somnambulism, but he uses the Elman induction to show that
they are there because they lost the numbers.

I recently purchased Elman's book, Hypnotherapy. Hopefully it will
shed some light for me on his thinking on this subject.

Johnie Fredman
www.heartlandhypnosisservices.com

On Jan 10, 2009, at 2:27 PM, MMTIERS@... wrote:

>
>
> In a message dated 1/10/2009 2:51:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
johnie@...
> writes:
> There are other, more subtle ways, to get the amnesia. The beautiful
> thing about the Elman is that it includes a built in test so that you
> know you have it. The other methods require you to test for it
> separately.
> I have always had a problem with this assumption. When I'm
> suggesting that someone allow those numbers to grow dim and distant
> and fade away and the client does this, all it means is that they
> are good at visualizing or imagining those numbers fading away. I
> can do this without trance.
>
> Unless you go further and test for amnesia of the numbers, like
> asking them to try to count, you can't prove anything. Where is the
> research that Elman was pulling from and how did he know it's
> somnambulism? I'm always a little doubtful when some hypnotists
> claim that you must get somnambulism to achieve most changes, when
> research seems to refute that time and time again. Not only the fact
> that it seems only a small percentage can achieve true somnambulism
> (whatever the hell that is) but also that, for many, suggestion
> seems to work just as well with out any formal trance.
>
> I teach and use variations of the Elman induction because it's rapid
> and achieves a nice state of trance. Is somnambulism built into it?
> I have no idea. As soon as I hear anything said with conviction in
> this mind field we play in, I get, well, a little curious...
>
> What do you all think?
>
> Happy New Year!
> Melissa
>
>
>
>
>
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