Hi Ron,

2008/12/14 Ron Hubbard <hubbard_ron@...>:

> ... the mechanisms of what's

> involved in hypnosis hadn't been even remotely understood for a very

> long time, and even now, I don't know how many

> hypnotists/hypnotherapists really understand what goes on in the brain

> when hypnosis is brought into play.

.....

> There's a schism: the hypnotists don't care about the physiological

> aspects nor do the neurologists care about what happens with hypnosis-



I actually think the ancient yogi/buddhists probably understand this

stuff better that anyone. If you are very  internally sensitive you

can learn a lot about how we work - psychologically and physically

(actually psycho-physically as at a certain depth there is no

seperation (but maybe they seperate again at a greater depth..).

A neurologist is different from a yogi in the same way that a

mathematician who has equations explaining harmonics is different from

a conductor who makes an orchestra great. One job is pure science the

other is intuition and 'empirical science'.  There is a continuum

between these poles and hypnotherapy is in the middle of it.



> Then you add in the psi aspects and most people tune out.

As I do!



>  But just because you don't want to believe in something, that does not

> make reality untrue.

Hmmmmm! Just because you experience something or other people

experience it and tell you about it doesn't make it true either! It

may feel like truth but many of our feelings are not reliable.



>  There *are* people who have demonstrated telekinesis

> while-- and only while-- under hypnosis.

OK where's the proof? Exceptional proof required for such exceptional

claims please.  Currently it seems to me if such things exist they are

so weak or useless that they can't be simply proved.



> there are many

> mainstream scientists who don't tow the line and believe in psi

> abilities whether they can be proven in a lab or not.



I am very interested in this business of belief and strange things -

as I have strange belifs myself. My current conclusions are:-

1 - Only a small percentage of humans are able to remove or change a

belief in the face of evidence.



2 - Most people need to have explanations of things which can't be

understood by them. So there is much superstitious belief about. So

many of these beliefs have been rolled back by modern science that I

regard it as highly likely many current common beliefs will be

delusory. The are many written claims 'proving' things that fall apart

under scutiny - the UFO & psi press is like this. If there are genuine

events they are rare and lost in the 'noise' of nonsense.



3 - I have personal experience of things which most people think are

scientifically impossible. Their beliefs are not scientific - they are

'faith based' - they have an excessive faith that science can explain

everything eventually. My experiences are personal and I cant prove

their validity to sceptics and people who will not try to gain the

same experiences I have had.



4 - Most people that have had the same 'mystic' (horrible word but

romantic!) experiences interpret them very differently than me - so

there may be doubt that we have actually have shared the experience.



5 - As there is so little external support for my interpretation of my

experiences I must doubt them.



Q - So what is certain then?

A - Not much that matters!



Q - Is that a problem?

A - No it is a huge benefit if you can 'realise' this. The urge to

'understand' what can't be understood and the urge to 'construct a

reality' that is more exciting and 'firm' than the mundaneness of the

'shallow reality' that forms naturally in the mind of a person subject

to the stresses of 'civilised' life is a big problem. This problem

manifests as an over-excited nervous system, huge amounts of

unreleased muscle tension & generalised impairment of all the bodies

systems - resulting in all sorts of health problems.



So here's a belief for you Ron - I believe if you addressed the above

issues your Fibromyalgia would go away! And the strength of your

beliefs would wane as you lost muscle tension in the torso.

What a strange belief I have! And no evidence to back it up. So I

would not expect you to believe the same.



I also believe a hypnotherapist that takes money off you to cultivate

your psi abilities should offer you a full refund if you dont get a

clear demonstrable result from it. Many of my yogi colleagues claim

'psi' experiences but I can't see what benefit they get except a sense

of being part of something special - which I take as a sign their ego

plays a bigger part in their workings than they think! Either that or

they are further down the path than me - I don't know.



Good luck,

Keith.

PS If you win the lottery shortly I may be in for some serious doubting....

PPS I believe there are subtle ways we influence each others systems

which are well beyond current science. 'Mirror' neurons triggered

visually are known to science but I think all our known senses

probably participate in 'mirroring'. And our elecro-magnetic fields

might and maybe there is even more......  This influencing anothers

system thru mirroring gets interpreted as 'energy' chanelling as it

was by the mesmerists.



PPPPPPPPS But I still don't believe in 'meaningful' long range

instantaneous communication!

Wow, what a lot of stuff you have written, Keith! But I have a crappy

old computer that crashes at the worst times, so I'll only address

one ot rwo points.



1) Yes, I agree with you: the Oriental folks do understand so much

about the body and brain-- especially compared to "modern medicine."



They also know all about psi abilities: they call them Joriki. But

they consider these abilities a distraction on the way to

enlightenment. And maybe they are. But if you are one of the 12 to 15

per cent (maybe more these days) of the world's population who has

these talents, then what's needed is control-- ya can't say I'm going

to get rid of them--that would be like cuttting off one's left arm or

plucking out an eye.



2) Every culture (except this, a young one) has been aware that psi

abilities exist although the names have varied. All cultures know

of "second sight" and the gift of prophecy. "shamans," medicine men,

prophets-- whatever you want to call-- all have utilized those gifts

for the benefit of their people; such people were also highly valued

by their people. Only in this ass-backward culture are psychic folks

ignored, even shunned.



3. The scientific sytem is highly flawed and always has been. To put

faith into is-- As Mr. Spock would say-- illogical. IF any psis could

walk into a lab and do tricks for several hours, every day for weeks,

the scientific community would be forced to acknowledge psi

abilities. But let's get real here: psi abilities are a

biological/psycological process, that for the most part can't be

flipped on like a transistor radio. Only to the most stupid of

scientists would insist on continued "proof" while denying the

obvious and the written reports that span ages.



That's not only stupidty, it's willful ignorance.



However, as I have said elsewhere, not all scientists have their

heads of their asses when it coes to psi. Most of the military and

intelligence agencies around the world have psi programs, and many

scientists have had their own psychic experiences as well. There is a

considrable body of proof: yet those who say there isn't is either

lying to themselves, or are ignorant of the facts and should just the

situation for themselves rather than toeing the line as so many

scientists do.





And lastly, 4) I have been precognitive ever since I was six and the

list of incidents would be way too long to list here. However, if you

should ever go the small grocery store on the edge of the Washington-

Oregon border, you'll find my picture on the Winners Wall as I have

won over $3,000 playing the lottery-- but losing very little. I used

to win 1 out *every* 5 times I played before I got sick. Think about

that. How many people win the lottery even once?



As it now stands, I *consistently* get two out of every three lottery

numbers-- night after night after night-- for the lasst twenty-two

days; something that would be statistically impossible if psi wasn't

involved.



The problem isthat I keep missing that third number, over and over

again. My therapist thinks it may have to do with the way data is

flowing through my brain-- corrupted by the fibro. We were working on

it before our session was rather rudely interrupted by outside

agencies.



Now, as the Bible says, there are none so blind as those who refuse

to see. Right?  ;-)



Ron

















--- In hypnosis-hypnotherapy-UK@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Bacon"

<KeithBacon7@...> wrote:

>

> Hi Ron,

> 2008/12/14 Ron Hubbard <hubbard_ron@...>:

> > ... the mechanisms of what's

> > involved in hypnosis hadn't been even remotely understood for a

very

> > long time, and even now, I don't know how many

> > hypnotists/hypnotherapists really understand what goes on in the

brain

> > when hypnosis is brought into play.

> .....

> > There's a schism: the hypnotists don't care about the

physiological

> > aspects nor do the neurologists care about what happens with

hypnosis-

>

> I actually think the ancient yogi/buddhists probably understand this

> stuff better that anyone. If you are very  internally sensitive you

> can learn a lot about how we work - psychologically and physically

> (actually psycho-physically as at a certain depth there is no

> seperation (but maybe they seperate again at a greater depth..).

> A neurologist is different from a yogi in the same way that a

> mathematician who has equations explaining harmonics is different

from

> a conductor who makes an orchestra great. One job is pure science

the

> other is intuition and 'empirical science'.  There is a continuum

> between these poles and hypnotherapy is in the middle of it.

>

> > Then you add in the psi aspects and most people tune out.

> As I do!

>

> >  But just because you don't want to believe in something, that

does not

> > make reality untrue.

> Hmmmmm! Just because you experience something or other people

> experience it and tell you about it doesn't make it true either! It

> may feel like truth but many of our feelings are not reliable.

>

> >  There *are* people who have demonstrated telekinesis

> > while-- and only while-- under hypnosis.

> OK where's the proof? Exceptional proof required for such

exceptional

> claims please.  Currently it seems to me if such things exist they

are

> so weak or useless that they can't be simply proved.

>

> > there are many

> > mainstream scientists who don't tow the line and believe in psi

> > abilities whether they can be proven in a lab or not.

>

> I am very interested in this business of belief and strange things -

> as I have strange belifs myself. My current conclusions are:-

> 1 - Only a small percentage of humans are able to remove or change a

> belief in the face of evidence.

>

> 2 - Most people need to have explanations of things which can't be

> understood by them. So there is much superstitious belief about. So

> many of these beliefs have been rolled back by modern science that I

> regard it as highly likely many current common beliefs will be

> delusory. The are many written claims 'proving' things that fall

apart

> under scutiny - the UFO & psi press is like this. If there are

genuine

> events they are rare and lost in the 'noise' of nonsense.

>

> 3 - I have personal experience of things which most people think are

> scientifically impossible. Their beliefs are not scientific - they

are

> 'faith based' - they have an excessive faith that science can

explain

> everything eventually. My experiences are personal and I cant prove

> their validity to sceptics and people who will not try to gain the

> same experiences I have had.

>

> 4 - Most people that have had the same 'mystic' (horrible word but

> romantic!) experiences interpret them very differently than me - so

> there may be doubt that we have actually have shared the experience.

>

> 5 - As there is so little external support for my interpretation of

my

> experiences I must doubt them.

>

> Q - So what is certain then?

> A - Not much that matters!

>

> Q - Is that a problem?

> A - No it is a huge benefit if you can 'realise' this. The urge to

> 'understand' what can't be understood and the urge to 'construct a

> reality' that is more exciting and 'firm' than the mundaneness of

the

> 'shallow reality' that forms naturally in the mind of a person

subject

> to the stresses of 'civilised' life is a big problem. This problem

> manifests as an over-excited nervous system, huge amounts of

> unreleased muscle tension & generalised impairment of all the bodies

> systems - resulting in all sorts of health problems.

>

> So here's a belief for you Ron - I believe if you addressed the

above

> issues your Fibromyalgia would go away! And the strength of your

> beliefs would wane as you lost muscle tension in the torso.

> What a strange belief I have! And no evidence to back it up. So I

> would not expect you to believe the same.

>

> I also believe a hypnotherapist that takes money off you to

cultivate

> your psi abilities should offer you a full refund if you dont get a

> clear demonstrable result from it. Many of my yogi colleagues claim

> 'psi' experiences but I can't see what benefit they get except a

sense

> of being part of something special - which I take as a sign their

ego

> plays a bigger part in their workings than they think! Either that

or

> they are further down the path than me - I don't know.

>

> Good luck,

> Keith.

> PS If you win the lottery shortly I may be in for some serious

doubting....

> PPS I believe there are subtle ways we influence each others systems

> which are well beyond current science. 'Mirror' neurons triggered

> visually are known to science but I think all our known senses

> probably participate in 'mirroring'. And our elecro-magnetic fields

> might and maybe there is even more......  This influencing anothers

> system thru mirroring gets interpreted as 'energy' chanelling as it

> was by the mesmerists.

>

> PPPPPPPPS But I still don't believe in 'meaningful' long range

> instantaneous communication!

>

Pardon my bad typing; it's damn cold here! The temperature has

dropped down to 20 F and my office is freezing. Oy!



Ron





--- In hypnosis-hypnotherapy-UK@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Hubbard"

<hubbard_ron@...> wrote:

>

> Wow, what a lot of stuff you have written, Keith! But I have a

crappy

> old computer that crashes at the worst times, so I'll only address

> one ot rwo points.

>

> 1) Yes, I agree with you: the Oriental folks do understand so much

> about the body and brain-- especially compared to "modern medicine."

>

> They also know all about psi abilities: they call them Joriki. But

> they consider these abilities a distraction on the way to

> enlightenment. And maybe they are. But if you are one of the 12 to

15

> per cent (maybe more these days) of the world's population who has

> these talents, then what's needed is control-- ya can't say I'm

going

> to get rid of them--that would be like cuttting off one's left arm

or

> plucking out an eye.

>

> 2) Every culture (except this, a young one) has been aware that psi

> abilities exist although the names have varied. All cultures know

> of "second sight" and the gift of prophecy. "shamans," medicine

men,

> prophets-- whatever you want to call-- all have utilized those

gifts

> for the benefit of their people; such people were also highly

valued

> by their people. Only in this ass-backward culture are psychic

folks

> ignored, even shunned.

>

> 3. The scientific sytem is highly flawed and always has been. To

put

> faith into is-- As Mr. Spock would say-- illogical. IF any psis

could

> walk into a lab and do tricks for several hours, every day for

weeks,

> the scientific community would be forced to acknowledge psi

> abilities. But let's get real here: psi abilities are a

> biological/psycological process, that for the most part can't be

> flipped on like a transistor radio. Only to the most stupid of

> scientists would insist on continued "proof" while denying the

> obvious and the written reports that span ages.

>

> That's not only stupidty, it's willful ignorance.

>

> However, as I have said elsewhere, not all scientists have their

> heads of their asses when it coes to psi. Most of the military and

> intelligence agencies around the world have psi programs, and many

> scientists have had their own psychic experiences as well. There is

a

> considrable body of proof: yet those who say there isn't is either

> lying to themselves, or are ignorant of the facts and should just

the

> situation for themselves rather than toeing the line as so many

> scientists do.

>

>

> And lastly, 4) I have been precognitive ever since I was six and

the

> list of incidents would be way too long to list here. However, if

you

> should ever go the small grocery store on the edge of the

Washington-

> Oregon border, you'll find my picture on the Winners Wall as I have

> won over $3,000 playing the lottery-- but losing very little. I

used

> to win 1 out *every* 5 times I played before I got sick. Think

about

> that. How many people win the lottery even once?

>

> As it now stands, I *consistently* get two out of every three

lottery

> numbers-- night after night after night-- for the lasst twenty-two

> days; something that would be statistically impossible if psi

wasn't

> involved.

>

> The problem isthat I keep missing that third number, over and over

> again. My therapist thinks it may have to do with the way data is

> flowing through my brain-- corrupted by the fibro. We were working

on

> it before our session was rather rudely interrupted by outside

> agencies.

>

> Now, as the Bible says, there are none so blind as those who refuse

> to see. Right?  ;-)

>

> Ron

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> --- In hypnosis-hypnotherapy-UK@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Bacon"

> <KeithBacon7@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Ron,

> > 2008/12/14 Ron Hubbard <hubbard_ron@>:

> > > ... the mechanisms of what's

> > > involved in hypnosis hadn't been even remotely understood for a

> very

> > > long time, and even now, I don't know how many

> > > hypnotists/hypnotherapists really understand what goes on in

the

> brain

> > > when hypnosis is brought into play.

> > .....

> > > There's a schism: the hypnotists don't care about the

> physiological

> > > aspects nor do the neurologists care about what happens with

> hypnosis-

> >

> > I actually think the ancient yogi/buddhists probably understand

this

> > stuff better that anyone. If you are very  internally sensitive

you

> > can learn a lot about how we work - psychologically and physically

> > (actually psycho-physically as at a certain depth there is no

> > seperation (but maybe they seperate again at a greater depth..).

> > A neurologist is different from a yogi in the same way that a

> > mathematician who has equations explaining harmonics is different

> from

> > a conductor who makes an orchestra great. One job is pure science

> the

> > other is intuition and 'empirical science'.  There is a continuum

> > between these poles and hypnotherapy is in the middle of it.

> >

> > > Then you add in the psi aspects and most people tune out.

> > As I do!

> >

> > >  But just because you don't want to believe in something, that

> does not

> > > make reality untrue.

> > Hmmmmm! Just because you experience something or other people

> > experience it and tell you about it doesn't make it true either!

It

> > may feel like truth but many of our feelings are not reliable.

> >

> > >  There *are* people who have demonstrated telekinesis

> > > while-- and only while-- under hypnosis.

> > OK where's the proof? Exceptional proof required for such

> exceptional

> > claims please.  Currently it seems to me if such things exist

they

> are

> > so weak or useless that they can't be simply proved.

> >

> > > there are many

> > > mainstream scientists who don't tow the line and believe in psi

> > > abilities whether they can be proven in a lab or not.

> >

> > I am very interested in this business of belief and strange

things -

> > as I have strange belifs myself. My current conclusions are:-

> > 1 - Only a small percentage of humans are able to remove or

change a

> > belief in the face of evidence.

> >

> > 2 - Most people need to have explanations of things which can't be

> > understood by them. So there is much superstitious belief about.

So

> > many of these beliefs have been rolled back by modern science

that I

> > regard it as highly likely many current common beliefs will be

> > delusory. The are many written claims 'proving' things that fall

> apart

> > under scutiny - the UFO & psi press is like this. If there are

> genuine

> > events they are rare and lost in the 'noise' of nonsense.

> >

> > 3 - I have personal experience of things which most people think

are

> > scientifically impossible. Their beliefs are not scientific -

they

> are

> > 'faith based' - they have an excessive faith that science can

> explain

> > everything eventually. My experiences are personal and I cant

prove

> > their validity to sceptics and people who will not try to gain the

> > same experiences I have had.

> >

> > 4 - Most people that have had the same 'mystic' (horrible word but

> > romantic!) experiences interpret them very differently than me -

so

> > there may be doubt that we have actually have shared the

experience.

> >

> > 5 - As there is so little external support for my interpretation

of

> my

> > experiences I must doubt them.

> >

> > Q - So what is certain then?

> > A - Not much that matters!

> >

> > Q - Is that a problem?

> > A - No it is a huge benefit if you can 'realise' this. The urge to

> > 'understand' what can't be understood and the urge to 'construct a

> > reality' that is more exciting and 'firm' than the mundaneness of

> the

> > 'shallow reality' that forms naturally in the mind of a person

> subject

> > to the stresses of 'civilised' life is a big problem. This problem

> > manifests as an over-excited nervous system, huge amounts of

> > unreleased muscle tension & generalised impairment of all the

bodies

> > systems - resulting in all sorts of health problems.

> >

> > So here's a belief for you Ron - I believe if you addressed the

> above

> > issues your Fibromyalgia would go away! And the strength of your

> > beliefs would wane as you lost muscle tension in the torso.

> > What a strange belief I have! And no evidence to back it up. So I

> > would not expect you to believe the same.

> >

> > I also believe a hypnotherapist that takes money off you to

> cultivate

> > your psi abilities should offer you a full refund if you dont get

a

> > clear demonstrable result from it. Many of my yogi colleagues

claim

> > 'psi' experiences but I can't see what benefit they get except a

> sense

> > of being part of something special - which I take as a sign their

> ego

> > plays a bigger part in their workings than they think! Either

that

> or

> > they are further down the path than me - I don't know.

> >

> > Good luck,

> > Keith.

> > PS If you win the lottery shortly I may be in for some serious

> doubting....

> > PPS I believe there are subtle ways we influence each others

systems

> > which are well beyond current science. 'Mirror' neurons triggered

> > visually are known to science but I think all our known senses

> > probably participate in 'mirroring'. And our elecro-magnetic

fields

> > might and maybe there is even more......  This influencing

anothers

> > system thru mirroring gets interpreted as 'energy' chanelling as

it

> > was by the mesmerists.

> >

> > PPPPPPPPS But I still don't believe in 'meaningful' long range

> > instantaneous communication!

> >

>

Hi Ron,



2008/12/17 Ron Hubbard <hubbard_ron@...>:

> 1) Yes, I agree with you: the Oriental folks do understand so much

> about the body and brain-- especially compared to "modern medicine."

Some aspects of it yes. But their knowledge is obscured by a lot of

superstitious/religious stuff. Which may or may not be true - but it

puts off many westerners as it put me off for too long.



> They also know all about psi abilities: they call them Joriki. But

> they consider these abilities a distraction on the way to enlightenment.

This is indeed a common belief in the spiritual path world. Personally

I doubt it and believe it is the ego playing tricks on people. Maybe

one day I will reach a certian stage and experience it myself and wil

change my belief.



> ... then what's needed is control

Yes - to a degree where an acceptable standard of experimental proof

can be given.



> 2) Every culture (except this, a young one) has been aware that psi

> abilities exist although the names have varied. All cultures know

> of "second sight" and the gift of prophecy. "shamans," medicine men,

> prophets-- whatever you want to call-- all have utilized those gifts

> for the benefit of their people; such people were also highly valued

> by their people. Only in this ass-backward culture are psychic folks

> ignored, even shunned.

There have been great healers and great quacks and con-men forever and

always will be. Which is which may be hard to decide. We have

scientific proof of some things, anecdotal backing of others and

patently stupid blind faith in many things. "shamanism" can have many

valid techniques (as had the masons, alchemists, warrior schools,

religious sects etc)  I know this from my yoga/meditation experiences.

A knight of the temple did an all night vigil in knights pose as part

of initiation. To me this is a yogic practise (mainly strech the left

torso and thigh) to come to terms with horror and war - to avoid Post

Traumatic Stress Disorder and to maintain control in the stress of

combat. Soldiers should do it today. I would'nt expect anyone except

someone who has done it or similar to believe this! Organised religion

purges effective practice leaving ineffective traces. So Moslem bowing

and Christain singing/chanting and standing and sitting in unison has

become ineffective. Our culture is great - it just has some big gaps -

Islam and Christianity made these gaps bigger!  Our science has purged

our culture of many superstitious beliefs, But most eople are by

nature superstitious - so many beliefs carry on despite evidence. Also

many people deny 'experienatial learning' as they 'mistake it' for

superstition.



>  3. The scientific sytem is highly flawed and always has been. To put

> faith into is-- As Mr. Spock would say-- illogical.

Good science is helpful and excellent. By definition it is the

appliance of logic to observation. The standard required to accept a

truth is so high that psi supporters are yet to reach that standard of

proof. So it is not scientific Of course science hasnt proved it

doesnt exist. We seem to have subtle froms of 'communication' not

known in current science - or known inprinciple but not in practise.

Yogis and shaman utilised our mirror neurons for thousands of years -

scientists discovered them in the 1990's.

The flaw is failure to realise that the field of internal exploration

('experiential learning') yields positive helpful techniques. The

ego/self in resisting change helps scientists dismiss the whole field

as unscientific, invalid even non-existent. It makes them think that

explanatory science is the only source of helpful knowledge.  The

blind faith in un-scientific explanations of believers in these things

puts scientists off too.





>  IF any psis could

> walk into a lab and do tricks for several hours, every day for weeks,

> the scientific community would be forced to acknowledge psi

> abilities. But let's get real here: psi abilities are a

> biological/psycological process, that for the most part can't be

> flipped on like a transistor radio. Only to the most stupid of

> scientists would insist on continued "proof" while denying the

> obvious and the written reports that span ages.

Wrong - exceptional claims require exceptional proof. It means that

people who have never experience 'psi' can validly believe it doesnt

exist. If one day I experience it I may change my view - but I may be

deluding myself as many people have done aout many things.



> That's not only stupidty, it's willful ignorance.

It is SCIENCE! Repeatable experimental validation (& prefereably a

feasible explanation) makes something scientifically true. There are

many triths outside science - they just arent scientific truths.  Some

of them will be  scientific truth one day and some will be disproven -

many will remian in limbo land.



> However, as I have said elsewhere, not all scientists have their

> heads of their asses when it coes to psi.

A well developed rational function doesn't preclude delusory beliefs!

In fact 'scientists' can be screwed up by allowing their intuition to

atrophy and start applying logic where it isnt effective. Most great

scientists seem to value art and intuiton as much as maths and logic

. Bad scientists excessive faith in bad science cases much grief.



> There is a

> considrable body of proof: yet those who say there isn't is either

> lying to themselves, or are ignorant of the facts

Or are merely sceptical because there is not sufficient widely accepted proof.



> However, if you

> should ever go the small grocery store on the edge of the Washington-

> Oregon border, you'll find my picture on the Winners Wall as I have

> won over $3,000 playing the lottery-- but losing very little. I used

> to win 1 out *every* 5 times I played before I got sick. Think about

> that. How many people win the lottery even once?

How do I refute this? Did you get lucky - did you invest more in

tickets than you realised? Did you have psi ability that you have now

lost? Are you lying? I just dont know.





> As it now stands, I *consistently* get two out of every three lottery

> numbers-- night after night after night-- for the lasst twenty-two

> days; something that would be statistically impossible if psi wasn't

> involved.

Plese give a statistical analysis. Are you saying for a random 3 digit

number you can say 3 digits and 2 will match those in the number.

Whats the odds on this? I have forgotten how to calculate that.





> Now, as the Bible says, there are none so blind as those who refuse

> to see. Right? ;-)

And none so wise (and free of tension) as those that don't have to believe.



Good luck,

Keith

> A well developed rational function doesn't preclude delusory

beliefs!

> In fact 'scientists' can be screwed up by allowing their intuition

to

> atrophy and start applying logic where it isnt effective. Most great

> scientists seem to value art and intuiton as much as maths and logic

> . Bad scientists excessive faith in bad science cases much grief.

>

> > There is a

> > considrable body of proof: yet those who say there isn't is either

> > lying to themselves, or are ignorant of the facts

> Or are merely sceptical because there is not sufficient widely

accepted proof.



Keith, isn't that like saying I won't believe in hypnosis unless

everyone who's hypnotized can slow their hearts down to one beat per

hour?



That's basically what you've said about ESP and related phenomena. It

has always been related to emotions and biological processes that few

can control. Can you produce a theta state at will and walk around in

it? That's essentially what you-- and others want: do a trick and

prove to us psi exists-- and while you're at it, keep doing it until

we are satisfied that you aren't faking. Nina Kulagina, a

telekineticist, lost as much as five pounds of her body weight doing

TK experiments for Soviet scientists. The strain ultimately killed

her. Is that proof enough? For some, there'll never be enough proof.



You say you meditate? Suppose I don't believe in the benefits of

meditation until everyone who meditates proves that they can raise

the temperature of their right hand, five degrees above the norm. Is

that rational? No, but that's the same standard that's being applied

here.



However, folks like Erickson and others in your own field have done

numerous fascinating experiments to prove that such abilities do

exist, and that hypnosis can bring them out. Not that everyone wants

to be hypnotized to prove a point.



As for con men, let's not forget that many a scientist has also ben

con men. Look at cold fusion, at the Piltdown Man, and many other

scientific hoaxes. Scientists want the lay person to accept the idea

that there are invissible masssless particles that zip through us all

the time from space; particles we can't see, taste, feel or detect by

film-- yet psi is too far out? What's wrong with that picture?  :-)



Ron

> That's essentially what you-- and others want: do a trick and

  > prove to us psi exists-- and while you're at it, keep doing it until

  > we are satisfied that you aren't faking.



Well, don't talk for me.



What scientists realise is that their minds and powers of observation

are flawed. That's why they use measuring tools, statistics, and

double-blind experiments to attempt to take their personal prejudices

out of the answers.



What people like me want is demonstrable proof. If psi exists, then it

can be either measured or statistically demonstrated. Where are these

studies that you keep referring to? (I'm curious, not trying to pull you

down. I'd be pleased as punch to find valid experiments showing that psi

does exist.)



  > Scientists want the lay person to accept the idea

  > that there are invissible masssless particles that zip through us all

  > the time from space; particles we can't see, taste, feel or detect by

  > film...



Uh, no. Scientists hypothesise (based on prior evidence and missing

information) that these particles exist.



They then create experiments (double-blind wherever possible) to test

whether the hypothesis is valid (i.e. could be true) or invalid (i.e.

couldn't be true). A key element of an experiment is that it must

predict a result. If the prediction turns out correct, it confirms (not

proves) the hypothesis; if incorrect, it invalidates the hypothesis. (It

can be considered a proof if it's an either-or: For example, either

horses' feet all leave the ground at the same time during each canter,

or they don't.)



If the experiments -- which must be repeated by different scientists to

be considered seriously -- indicate that the hypothesis is valid, they

then call it a Theory. (In layman's terms, a Theory is what is "true".)

That theory is built on, creating further hypotheses and experiments

(and new theories), until they find the limitations of their theories,

and either refine them (as with Newtonian physics) or discard them (as

with Copernicus's theories).



Scientists don't consider their conclusions as the Truth. Instead, they

consider them as guidelines towards the truth.



If we were to reject the scientific method, and rely on our subjective

observations, then the sun and stars would still be circling the world,

the world would still be flat, and you and I would not be typing on

computers.



Perhaps psychic powers do exist. At the moment, there is no evidence

that they do not; but likewise, there is no evidence that they do. For

simplicity's sake, scientists ignore its possibility until they come to

something that they can either measure or statistically validate. That's

why scientists ignore ghosts. It doesn't have to be "in a lab"; stars,

global warming and neutrinos don't fit in a lab, yet that doesn't stop

scientists from measuring, statistically analysing, hypothesising, and

experimenting about them.



As you can see, you should welcome the scientific method, as it would

validate your conclusions if correct.



If you can give us something that can be measured, statistically

measured, and experimented on (in a repeatable way), then we could

consider this further.



For example: You said, "As it now stands, I *consistently* get two out

of every three lottery numbers-- night after night after night-- for the

lasst twenty-two days; something that would be statistically impossible

if psi wasn't involved."



If you really can predict these, then -- wow! -- do so. Email us

/before/ each lottery with your guesses. If you reach a statistical

measure of at least 95%, this will be worthy of scientific

investigation. If you reach at least 99%, you will have many people

interested. 99.9% will get you in a lab ;-) !



Paddy





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> What people like me want is demonstrable proof. If psi exists, then

it

> can be either measured or statistically demonstrated. Where are

these

> studies that you keep referring to? (I'm curious, not trying to

pull you

> down. I'd be pleased as punch to find valid experiments showing

that psi

> does exist.)



And yet, there are *so* many others who don't give a crap about the

science.



I was trying to get on disability and was forced to take a psych test

on a day that was up in the triple digits; I was hot, sick, on

morphine, and I did not want to go through a three hour test. I was

hoping, desperately, for something to happen-- thinking about the

time when Carl Jung was in Sigmund Freud's office and he told Freud

he could make something unusual happen; a moment later there was a

loud rapping from Freud's bookcase. Astonished, Freud asked him to do

it again and his friend obliged; another loud rapping came from the

bookcase.



There was no bookcase, but suddenly there was a rumbling noise and

the picture on the opposite wall suddenly exploded into pieces. The

psychologist looked at it for a moment, then looked at me and asked

me if I believed in ESP-- a very odd question to ask considering the

circumstances, don't you think?



Not quite knowing where that was going to, I lied and said that I

didn't. The psychologist gave me an odd look, but let the matter go.

While I was rather pleased with myself, I eventually forgot about the

matter until I got the report back from the Social Security

Administration. They passed me and I got on disability, but there was

the comment in the middle of the report, "Subject does not believe in

ESP." The fact that that was there floored me more than anything.

Since when does a Government agency deal with the paranormal? Wasn't

that a tacit acknowledgment that "ESP" was a reality? Well, at least

as far as Big Brother was concerned?



I asked my doctor about it cuz I thought it had been a trick

question. She was surprised the psychologist even asked, but didn't

know *why* he asked either-- unless he knew, or suspected, that there

was more to his broken picture.



Jung had no problems with the idea that there were forces and

abilities that went beyond science. And apparently, neither did that

psychologist. Nor does the thought bother my doctor, a highly

intelligent, learned, and competent physician.



personally, I think scientific "proof" is highly over-rated. Not even

worth the paper it's printed on. But hey, knock yourself out: there

are a lot of studies and I'm sure you'll find them if ya take the

time to look.  Me, I have some more therapy sessions to go to resolve

to get my own wild talents (as the Military is so  fond of saying)

straightened out. Winning the lottery may not be scientific proof,

but it is a hell of a lot more satisfying.  <g>



Ron

> Winning the lottery may not be scientific proof,



Yes, it is!



Email us your predicted numbers *before* the lottery takes place. If you

get a significant number correct every time or almost every time, we can

subject that to statistical analysis.



Paddy





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Can we bring this thread to a close?  It seems to have strayed too far

beyond hypnotherapy into controversial paranormal claims.  I've posted

some material about Braid's discovery of hypnosis to try to engender

some more topic-relevant discussion.  I think we've heard enough about

ESP for the time being.



Donald Robertson

Moderator