So what is the difference between hypnotism and mesmerism?

Are they the same thing?

If they are different, how?

Can anyone answer?

Does anyone know?

Is being mesmerised and hypnotised the same thing?

Thank you

--- In hypnosis-hypnotherapy-UK@yahoogroups.com, "jezzwhizz"

<jezzwhizz@...> wrote:

> So what is the difference between hypnotism and mesmerism?

> Are they the same thing?

> If they are different, how?

> Can anyone answer?

> Does anyone know?

> Is being mesmerised and hypnotised the same thing?



Mesmerism and hypnotism are definitely not the same thing.  Hypnotism

developed out of Mesmerism being debunked.  People frequently confuse

the two things because "stage hypnotists", Hollywood films, and New

Age therapists frequently confuse the two things for dramatic

effect.  "Mesmerism" doesn't really exist, it's based on bogus

pseudoscientific claims and theories.



Franz Mesmer developed Mesmerism or animal magnetism at the end of

the 18th century.  He believed that he was channelling an invisible

energy from outer space, through his body, and into the body of the

subject.  Mesmer therefore believed that the effects he perceived,

therapeutic improvement, muscular seizures, emotional "crises", etc.,

were mainly due to his power rather than to the belief or

expectation, etc., of the client.  Mesmer thought that animal

magnetism resembled ordinary ("mineral") magnetism, and was literally

a kind of magnetic force in the body.  He thought it bounced off

mirrors, and could be stored in bottled water.  Later Mesmerists

thought it resembled electricity and could be stored in trees and

crystals.  This whole theory was easily debunked by critics who

carried out very early placebo controlled experiments and showed that

Mesmerised water, e.g., did absolutely nothing unless the subject had

been led to believe that it would.  Hence, the French Academy of

Sciences, concluded that its effects were NOT due to any form

of "magnetism" or "energy" but merely the result of belief,

imagination, suggestion, expectation, and other mundane psychological

factors.  Mesmer himself has since been exposed by historians as a

charlatan who plagiarised his doctoral thesis.  He used to dress in

robes with astrological symbols on them, and played a kind of glass

wind-chime.  He also charged exorbitant fees for students to be

admitted to progressively higher levels of initiation into his

society, a practice common among modern purveyors of quack remedies.

Other Mesmerists frequently claimed that their subjects gained

paranormal powers while entranced.  Many Mesmerists also claimed that

they influenced their subjects by telepathic communication ("silent

willing") and could therefore Mesmerise people at any distance,

through a wall, etc.  A claim which was easily put to the test and

disproven many times.



At the start of the 19th century, Dugald Stewart, an influential

professor of mental philosophy at Glasgow university, argued that

British doctors and scientists should try to salvage something from

Mesmerism by removing the "occult" theory of animal magnetism and

replacing it with a more credible and down-to-earth scientific theory

based on Scottish "Common Sense Realist" philosophy of psychology.

Influenced by the philosophers of this tradition, a Scottish eye and

musculo-skeletal specialist, James Braid, developed his theory

of "hypnotism" in 1841.  Braid argued passionately, and conducted

many primitive experiments to prove, that the effects of Mesmerism

and a range of other Victorian "nostrum" or "quack" remedies

(prototypical complementary therapies) were due to the placebo

effect, suggestion, mental association, focused attention,

relaxation, imitation, and other ordinary and well-established

psychological and physiological processes.  Braid was, therefore,

essentially a skeptic, and hypnotism was a skeptical re-

interpretation of Mesmerism.  Braid originally toyed with the idea of

calling it "rational Mesmerism" as opposed to supernatural

or "transcendental Mesmerism" but soon abandoned this nomenclature

altogether, to avoid confusion.  Hence, Braid wrote,



"I beg farther to remark, if my theory and pretensions, as to the

nature, cause, and extent of the phenomena of nervous sleep

[hypnotism] have none of the fascinations of the transcendental to

captivate the lovers of the marvellous, the credulous and

enthusiastic, which the pretensions and alleged occult agency of the

mesmerists have, still I hope my views will not be the less

acceptable to honest and sober-minded men, because they are all level

to our comprehension, and reconcilable with well-known physiological

and psychological principles."  (Braid, 1853: 36)



I would recommend that anyone who is genuinely interested in this

area read Braid's own account in my forthcoming book The Discovery of

Hypnosis, or my article of the same name in the forthcoming (April, I

think) edition of the International Journal of Clinical &

Experimental Hypnosis (IJCEH).



http://www.ijceh.com/



Donald Robertson

2008/12/15 Donald Robertson <HypnoSynthesisUK@...>:

> Franz Mesmer ... believed that he was channelling an invisible

> energy from outer space, through his body, and into the body of the

> subject. Mesmer therefore believed that the effects he perceived,

> therapeutic improvement, muscular seizures, emotional "crises", etc.,

> were mainly due to his power rather than to the belief or

> expectation, etc., of the client.



Its so great to read this again - it should be on poster boards around

the land!

I explore various alternative things when I can and it amazes me that

when a person is guided to some sort of altered psycho-physical state

by a healer or yogi or 'energy chaneller' they are so impressed that

they believe the 'healers' explanation of what is going on and parrot

it for the rest of their lives. Even to the point that they believe

conflicting explanations simultaneously.

They have no awareness that their unfamiliar state change tends to

confuse and 'open' their mind and makes them very suggestible. It

seems that the majority of humans have 2 'flaws'

1 - They prefer a 'spiritual energy' explanation (lke Mesmer's above)

over a 'scientific' explanation of the form 'We aren't sure how this

works but much experience and experimentation has shown that it does'.

2 - They will take to the first explanation they are given and not

modify their belief in the light of evidence or alternatives.



I think these 2 'flaws' are what allows much of the 'alternative

health' industry to flourish. Another common 'flaw' is that people

will spend money on all sorts of things and dont seem able to

rationally study their own self well enough to notice that they get no

real benefit from so much of what they spend their money on!



Keith.

> 2 - They will take to the first explanation they are given and not

> modify their belief in the light of evidence or alternatives.



To be fair, most people don't have backgrounds in neurology,

psychology, and medicine to make informed decisions; they have to go by

what the so-called "experts" say; what else is there for them otherwise?



Ron



------

"No I don't believe in luck. No I don't believe in circumstance no

more. Accidents never happen in a perfect world...  Could have planned

it all; precognition in my ears."



- Blondie -

In a message dated 15/12/2008 11:28:23A.M. GMT Standard Time,

keithbacon7@... writes:



I think  these 2 'flaws' are what allows much of the 'alternative

health' industry  to flourish. Another common 'flaw' is that people

will spend money on all  sorts of things and dont seem able to

rationally study their own self well  enough to notice that they get no

real benefit from so much of what they  spend their money on!





Although he does equivocate slightly at times, Braid emphasised, against  the

Mesmerists, that it was really the client who brought about the cure or

effect and not the hypnotist or Mesmerist.  In support of this,  surprisingly,

Braid enthusiastically quoted reports of yogic meditation brought  back by the

East India Company soldiers, etc.  Braid reasoned that if  yogins could

experience similar effects, in solitary meditation, then that  indirectly

supported

his argument that the effects of Mesmerism did not require  a Mesmerist but

originated within the subject's own mind and body.  Braid  had initially used

focused attention and shallow breathing to induce hypnotism,  and he noted that

certain reports of pranayama alluded to similar sorts of  means.  Braid also

hypnotised himself to help with his rheumatic pain, and  he saw this as further

evidence that the effects did not require another person  to channel any

invisible energy, etc., into the subject.



However, people have a well-known tendency to "misattribute" unusual  effects

to unusual causes.  Stage hypnosis exploits this for dramatic  effect,

implying that the effects have more to do with the "hypnotic gaze",  etc., of

the

showman than the heightened state of imagination and extraversion  in the

subjects.  Likewise, as you say, New Age therapies exploit the same  confusion

and

lead clients to assume that the improvements they experience have  more to do

with some special power of the healer, etc., than with their own  attitude and

imagination.  CBT places considerable emphasis, in contrast  with Freudian

psychoanalysis, upon the idea that the client is helping  themselves with the

support of the therapist, not being passively "cured" by a  healer or guru

figure.  It seems clear that when clients think their  improvement is mainly due

to

the therapist, they're wrong, and that makes them  more dependant upon the

financial arrangement -if they relapse they need to go  back and pay for more

therapy.  On the other hand, if the client finds  their own power to help

themselves they are more likely to maintain their  improvement in the future

without

further help.



Braid actually said the role of the hypnotist was like a train driver, as I

recall.  I think he meant that the hypnotist merely pulls the right levers,

etc., but it is the engine (the client's mind) that does all the work.





Yours  Sincerely,



Donald Robertson

College Principal & Executive  Director



Senior Clinician Hypnotherapist (NCH)

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

2008/12/15  <HypnoSynthesisUK@...>:

> .... Braid emphasised, against the

> Mesmerists, that it was really the client who brought about the cure or

> effect and not the hypnotist or Mesmerist.



>  In support of this, > surprisingly, Braid enthusiastically quoted reports of

yogic meditation

> brought back by the East India Company soldiers, etc.  Braid reasoned that

> if yogins could experience similar effects, in solitary meditation, then

> that indirectly supported his argument that the effects of Mesmerism did not

> require a Mesmerist but originated within the subject's own mind and body.

It is so rare to hear of a western 'pioneer' of these things giving

praise to eastern things! There is a lot of western 're-discovery' of

ancient things but I suspect a lot of the time ideas and techniques

are taken and the taker pretends they discovered it themselves.

My expereince of yoga and mediation has been that doing the techniques

taught allows self righting/adjusting systems to function - systems

that are supressed by the ravages of stress in the modern world.

If suggestion could change the balance of the bodies systems towards

health then what other interventions could? In the ancient world as

civilisation developed it must have been obvious that hierachical

society (especially with injustice and inequality) caused collapsed

posture and the related loss of calm, grace and equanimity of self.

A colossal amount of experimentation gave us what we have today - a

diverse range of techniques that alter our state and allow subconcious

systems to work more effectively.

These techniques range from the seemingly simple - like basic

meditation (single point focus, using the breath to relax) thru basic

yoga (stretching to stimulate emotional/muscle release, stimulating

glands) to the odd but powerful extreme tantric/yoga practises.

I see in these things a split between the explanations of the

practioners and the techniques themselves. It is possible the

explanations are designed to take a persons concious mind away from

the areas being addressed so the subconcious can work on them

unhindered by concious meddling.

Also the explanations are 'tainted' by religious/superstitious

beliefs/wishes and the egotistical nature of the minor practioners who

want to claim spiritual superiorty over their followers. Even this is

complicated as a truly great teacher may well attribute all sorts of

things to external energies and entities so he can stay humble - not

be swayed by constant praise.



  > Braid had initially used focused attention and shallow breathing to induce

> hypnotism, and he noted that certain reports of pranayama alluded to similar

> sorts of means.

We are taught the breath passing over nose and mouth internals where

nerve endings are close to the skin stimulates the para-sympathetic

nervous system. The sympathetic nervous system is over-active in a

stressed person so this brings it more into line. As the

para-sympathetic has failed to allow release of so much past tension

it requires serious prolonged stimulation.

I oftern wonder why in buddhism you count the breath from 1 to 10 but

in hypnosis you count backwards. Its something to do with hypnosis

focusing on just relaxing but in buddhism the focus is different.

Also in hypnosis you slump but in buddhism you want to stimulate the

postural systems of the spine.



>  Braid also hypnotised himself to help with his rheumatic

> pain, and he saw this as further evidence that the effects did not require

> another person to channel any invisible energy, etc., into the subject.

This blocking neural pathways to 'disable' systems is big in

buddhism/yoga. Tapping the toungue on the lips and mouth (mantra) and

tapping fingure tips somehow does this. Its the breaking of links that

let the buddha give us his map of how the mind works.  I'm curious to

know how a hypnotherapists experience matches a buddhists. I'm a bit

of a beginner - I cant 'switch off' pain. I had an experience of

'rising above it' of seperation from the body - the pain was there but

it was tolerable. This led to a complete disconnect from emotional

history - no neurosis, no past - total freedom and feeling utterly

grand. Do you get that in hypnosis? My trainer said this is 'showing

the way' This is more and more how you will be if you keep at it.



> However, people have a well-known tendency to "misattribute" unusual effects

> to unusual causes.... Likewise, as you say, New Age therapies exploit the same

> confusion and lead clients to assume that the improvements they experience

> have more to do with some special power of the healer, etc., than with their

> own attitude and imagination.

I think it is not concious exploitation - it is the murky workings of

the ego building a world view that is grand and coherent where the 'I'

is important. New Age therapies are often pale shadows of valid yogic

type techniques. But yogic techniques require a lot of time and self

discipline and hard work,





>  CBT places considerable emphasis, in contrast

> with Freudian psychoanalysis, upon the idea that the client is helping

> themselves with the support of the therapist, not being passively "cured" by

> a healer or guru figure.

The more meditaiton I do the more Freud seems daft! Its not one trauma

screwing up the subconcious but layer upon layer of trauma. In our

world a 'normal' person is well out of adjustment. The overexcited

system is plagued by constant firing of fear/aversion reflexes that

don't get released. Nearly anything is traumatic. This results in us

being in some weird fight-or-flight mode but the mind can't find the

source of the fear so it attributes it to daft things like spiders or

the fear of ruination due to an inappropriately shaped body.  Or just

general anxiety - low grade fear with no identifiable cause.



Yogi saying 'That stuff didn't get in there by logic and logic won't

get it out'. That's the western mistake - to look for reasoned

solutions. But the problem is the non-release of the reflexes. Every

serious zen or yoga person experiences catharsis again and again and

again. This is not 'scientific' but its bleedin' obvious to the

practitioner.

Interestingly many mind/body systems (like much western AT & Tai Chi &

much meditation) proceed at such a gentle pace the release happens

mostly below concious awareness (or doesnt happen at all!). The

'quick' ones like serious zen and Kundalini yoga cause a lot to come

to awareness. It is a surprise to see how much emotion is below

awareness.



> .... improvement is mainly due to the therapist, they're wrong, and that makes

> them more dependant upon the financial arrangement -if they relapse they

> need to go back and pay for more therapy.

I remember your story of the man who said psychothepray worked which

is why he had been having it all his life!

I believe the serial therapy goer is a often victim of the ego/self.

The kundalini yoga program is designed to make it very hard to deny

our workings. If you do as taught you will change - release

tension/repression - you can't escape it. But a large number of people

stop within their comfort zone - instinctively their subconcious finds

a way to deny change. These are often the people that will pay for

this and that and be happy with fleeting improvements or even delusory

ones. What is fascinating is that these people can't 'see' the changes

in those around them - those changes deny their world view. I had a

psychotherapist friend that got more and more awkward each time I saw

her - I believe it was because I was living denial of her views!  She

did yoga to ge a flat tummy and didn't change. I did it to stay alive

and changed a lot.



>  On the other hand, if the client

> finds their own power to help themselves they are more likely to maintain

> their improvement in the future without further help.

That has been my blessing. Having no money to pay for help but

suffering badly from stress I was forced to shop around and found

these odd eastern self-help programs.  So I can live in my ruination

without being very stressed at all. I hear all these poor sods

bleating about fear of the bailiffs and losing jobs and I have lived

with it for years - this last year even quite cheerfully. I am very

lucky in one way at least. But it requires an odd view - that I am

just a mis-adjusted animal and if I do my yoga my system will adjust

to give me neutral state. Mundane and time consuming.



> Braid actually said the role of the hypnotist was like a train driver, as I

> recall.  I think he meant that the hypnotist merely pulls the right levers,

> etc., but it is the engine (the client's mind) that does all the work.

I guess thats a difference. Basic yoga is 'Do this and your system

will sort itself out'. This mirrors 'Swallow this it will make you

better' but the yogic techniques work at a very fundamental level. As

you do the techniques you get a feel for how you work and what you

need to work on. Buts not at the levers in the cab level. It is more

oiling the wheels and adjusting the venting of the boiler. Then the

levers work better.



Keith.

2008/12/14 jezzwhizz <jezzwhizz@...>:

> So what is the difference between hypnotism and mesmerism?

An easy answer is:-



> Is being mesmerised and hypnotised the same thing?

yes!



Anything to do with altered mental or psycho-physical states deals

with internal experiences which are open to subjective interpretation.

What lies behind these experiences is the complex workings of our

systems most of which is not undestood by current science. A

scientific approach is to accept what is not explained and not 'make

up' non-scientific explanations.

Worklds and terms in these areas can have rather shifting meanings to.

Donald Robertson knows this stuff better than me but he is probably

busy over xmas so I shall atempt this:-

The mesmerists had an explanation that a special fluid was transmitted

by the mesmerist and this was responsible for what went on. Dr Braid

'proved' there was no such fluid or at least if there was it didn't

work like the mesmerists claimed. The mesmerist view has I think faded

away now.



Hypnosis can mean 1 of 2 things

1 - A state of deep relaxation.

2 - States of hyper-suggestibility - the deeply relaxed state is just

one such state.



Then we have hypnotherapy which is the utilisation of these states to

make therapeutic interventions. Stage hypnosis is the utilisation of

them for entertainment.



These subjects are huge you could probably find writings on mesmerism

which are totally in line with writings on hypnotherapy.  But in

general writings on hypnotherapy should be much closer to being

'scientific' and of interest to a modern westerner.

A pet subject of mine is buddhism - which is maybe very close to

hypnotherapy for people who can't afford a hypnotherapist. Mindfulness

Based Stress Reduction and other similar things are where eastern

meets western. Cognitive Behaviour Therapy + Hypnotherapy sems to be

the optimal thing.

You can use the deeply relaxed state without making suggestions to. In

zen you just make yourself relaxed and let your body/minds healing and

repair functions operate without the usual noise and stress of modern

life. People call this self-hypnosis or power napping in the west but

don't do it for the 'punishing/liberating' prolonged periods the zen

people do.

I have come to the conclusion that this whole area is made very

complex by the many different ways of describing the same things -

affected by culture, prejudice and mode of training.

I see Donald has just posted a reply which will be much more informed

than mine - but I shall post it anyway - cant bear just to delete it!

Have a nice xmas period and a prosperous recession proof  new year.

Keith

To move ever so slightly off-thread...but it does relate to the public

perceptions of hypnotherapy...I have two tales to tell.







A few weeks ago I was buying my morning coffee at my local café and was

chatting to the owner, a well educated, intelligent person. We had just

begun to talk about some aspects of hypnotherapy when she stopped me and

said that the conversation had reminded her of something. She then proceeded

to tell me about her recent holiday to Scotland where her and her husband

had come across a house where, in the front garden, was placed a pole with a

skull upon it. The house, it appeared, was inhabited by a ‘black witch’ who

sold her services to help people with their problems. I was amazed, and

somewhat amused, that our conversation about hypnotherapy had reminded my

friend of her recent brush with black-magic!







From the public perception, now, to a professional one; only yesterday did I

have my first brush with mental health professionals having concerns about

hypnotherapy. This was not because they did not agree with its effectiveness

but that they did not want to promote it because of the “public concern

regarding stage hypnosis”. The context is that I was promoting my practice

to a local private mental health clinic. They told me that their CB

Therapists did use some hypnosis but that they didn’t promote it to the

public as they were worried that the public may think it too “weird” (my

quotes are their words). This, they said, was down to the perceptual damage

done by stage hypnosis.







My point? To say that I agree with those on here who promote the empirical

testing of hypnosis and therefore evidence-based treatments for clients.

Stories such as those I have just told are not uncommon and hypnotherapy is

still considered by many, outside the psychotherapeutic world, to be just

another untested ‘alternative’ health remedy. I think it is our duty, not

only to ourselves but to our clients, to become a part of the mainstream

mental health world. As some on this forum may know, I am also a registered

architect in the UK; a title I worked hard to attain and a title which is

protected by English and Welsh (and Scottish) Law. Probably not likely to

happen in my life time, although quite a youngster really, but I would

dearly like to see the term ‘hypnotherapist’ similarly protected. (By

“protected” I mean that only those having completed and passed a course

approved and monitored by a government-approved regulator may pass

themselves off as a hypnotherapist). Architects, Doctors, psychiatrists are

all such protected titles. At the moment hypnotherapy is far too open to

quackery!







From another thread Ron has been asking us to accept that certain psi

abilities under hypnosis have been tested. As a curious and investigative

bunch, I’m sure we would be interested to here where we can read about the

research  processes and results, Ron. Could you let us all know?







Duncan Gunn MNCH(Lic) GHR(Reg)











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> From another thread Ron has been asking us to accept that certain

psi

> abilities under hypnosis have been tested. As a curious and

investigative

> bunch, I'm sure we would be interested to here where we can read

about the

> research  processes and results, Ron. Could you let us all know?



Duncan, I'm tempted to say thatt there is a rift between the

scientific community and the psi community-- and whether anyone knows

it or not-- there *is* a psi community. With over 720 million people

with some form

of wild talents, that doesn't go unnoticed. But often it does go

unaccepted.



It's not just the scientific community, but they lead the way due to

a flawed way of looking at things: to them, if a thing can't be

repeated in a lab and written up in a journal, therefore it doesn't

exist. To any other rational person, that's horse manure: a thing can

or cannot exist becaause it does irrespective of whether any

scientist believes in it.



Psi abilities do work, and that is the other side of the coin: that

fact scares a lot of people. Even if it's on some dark and primitive

level, such abilities scare a lot of people and they don't want to

know about, don't want to believe in them, and won't accept them.

Unfortunately, many scientists are in this group and hide their fears

behind the "scientific method."



That said, I'm rather fortunate that I live in Oregon where so many

people are open to psi: doctors, nurses, psychologists, and most

people on the streets. As example, some years ago I was in a

bookstore when a whole row of books suddenly-- and literally-- jumped

off of the shelf. A woman looked at, looked at me and smiled; she

said "somebody is trying to tell you something" and walked on as if

that was the most natural thing she ever saw.



Fortunately my hypnotherapist is also psi-gifted and open to new

ideas and concepts in both hypnosis and medicine. She helped me a lot

with my fibromyalgia. But now, it seems that that problem is still

interfering with my life, keeping some of my abilities from working

for me when I need them to. We had a session-- which she didn't

charge me for-- to help alleviate that problem, but unfortunately it

was interrupted before we could make any progress. With a little

luck, I might be able to schedule another appointment next week-- but

right now, the weather here is terrible.



Ron

> To: hypnosis-hypnotherapy-UK@yahoogroups.com> From: hubbard_ron@...>

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 05:39:27 +0000> Subject: [UKhypno] Re: Hypnotism or

Mesmerism> > > It's not just the scientific community, but they lead the way due

to > a flawed way of looking at things: to them, if a thing can't be > repeated

in a lab and written up in a journal, therefore it doesn't > exist. To any other

rational person, that's horse manure: a thing can > or cannot exist becaause it

does irrespective of whether any > scientist believes in it.>



"Can't be repeated in a lab" and "scientists don't believe in it" are two

different things.



Suppose I told you that, for instance, an object doesn't exist if it has no

physical substance and you said that objects can exist whether I believe in them

or not. That's true, but those objects that exist without my belief still have

physical substance.

> > That said, I'm rather fortunate that I live in Oregon where so many > people

are open to psi: doctors, nurses, psychologists, and most > people on the

streets.



A doctor in Oregon recently killed someone I was very close to through

incompetence. I don't consider "doctors in Oregon believe in it" to be a high

reccomendation.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In hypnosis-hypnotherapy-UK@yahoogroups.com, Tom <blackmonk@...>

wrote:

>

>

> > To: hypnosis-hypnotherapy-UK@yahoogroups.com> From:

hubbard_ron@...> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 05:39:27 +0000> Subject:

[UKhypno] Re: Hypnotism or Mesmerism> > > It's not just the

scientific community, but they lead the way due to > a flawed way of

looking at things: to them, if a thing can't be > repeated in a lab

and written up in a journal, therefore it doesn't > exist. To any

other rational person, that's horse manure: a thing can > or cannot

exist becaause it does irrespective of whether any > scientist

believes in it.>

>

> "Can't be repeated in a lab" and "scientists don't believe in it"

are two different things.

>

> Suppose I told you that, for instance, an object doesn't exist if

it has no physical substance and you said that objects can exist

whether I believe in them or not. That's true, but those objects that

exist without my belief still have physical substance.



I'm glad I took debate classes or I would get drowned in that morass

of non sequitors. It's amazing how far people will go to not

acknowledge something that frightens them or shakes their belief

system.







> > > That said, I'm rather fortunate that I live in Oregon where so

many > people are open to psi: doctors, nurses, psychologists, and

most > people on the streets.

>

> A doctor in Oregon recently killed someone I was very close to

through incompetence. I don't consider "doctors in Oregon believe in

it" to be a high reccomendation.



Yeah... doctors kill people through incompetence *everywhere,* but I

wasn't making any "recommendations" but stating a simple fact: that

folks-- and particularly, those professionals who have traditionally

been known to reject all aspects of psi-- are more open-minded to the

subject here.



I can tell my doctor about something weired that might have happened

and not have to worry that they think I'm a lunatic; I can go to a

therapist-- any kind of therapist for just about any reason-- and

find myself discussing psi abilities and other related topics in a

rational way, with rational people who don't reject it out of hand

because such things aren't confirmed by the scientific elite. These

people think for themselves... something more people should do.



Ron

----- Original Message -----

From: "Ron Hubbard" <hubbard_ron@...>

To: <hypnosis-hypnotherapy-UK@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 10:13 PM

Subject: [UKhypno] Re: Hypnotism or Mesmerism





> --- In hypnosis-hypnotherapy-UK@yahoogroups.com, Tom <blackmonk@...>

> wrote:

>>

>>

>> > To: hypnosis-hypnotherapy-UK@yahoogroups.com> From:

> hubbard_ron@...> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 05:39:27 +0000> Subject:

> [UKhypno] Re: Hypnotism or Mesmerism> > > It's not just the

> scientific community, but they lead the way due to > a flawed way of

> looking at things: to them, if a thing can't be > repeated in a lab

> and written up in a journal, therefore it doesn't > exist. To any

> other rational person, that's horse manure: a thing can > or cannot

> exist becaause it does irrespective of whether any > scientist

> believes in it.>

>>

>> "Can't be repeated in a lab" and "scientists don't believe in it"

> are two different things.

>>

>> Suppose I told you that, for instance, an object doesn't exist if

> it has no physical substance and you said that objects can exist

> whether I believe in them or not. That's true, but those objects that

> exist without my belief still have physical substance.

>

> I'm glad I took debate classes or I would get drowned in that morass

> of non sequitors. It's amazing how far people will go to not

> acknowledge something that frightens them or shakes their belief

> system.

>



Why is this person allowed to continue posting things like this? I was under

the impression that personal attacks weren't allowed on this list.



Oh, here it is. "Please keep your postings short, on the topic of hypnosis,

respectful and polite."



I find Ron Hubbard's posting to be neither respectful nor polite.

"Insulting" and "intolerant" are words that come to mind more readily. A

person who can't accept that someone who disagrees with him has legtimate

reasons for doing so, preferring to ascribe that person's disagreement as

not being willing to "acknowledge something that frightens them or shakes

their belief

system" is not a person who can be engaged in civil discussion in my

opinion.

--- In hypnosis-hypnotherapy-UK@yahoogroups.com, "BlackMonk"

<blackmonk@...> wrote:

> Why is this person allowed to continue posting things like this? I

was under the impression that personal attacks weren't allowed on this

list.



I wasn't sure whether, as moderator, to allow your own post through as

it seems to potentially personalise and aggravate things further.

However, I've allowed it, as an opportunity to remind everyone on the

forum to please take note of the ground rules which do require that you

keep your postings on the topic of hypnotism, and that means not

straying to far into discussion of the paranormal, etc., and that you

treat other people with respect and avoid anything that might be

perceived as personal criticism.  At the same time, if you post a

comment you should be prepared to face other people's disagreement and

take criticism of your comments in the spirit of debate.



Donald Robertson

Moderator