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SVT or junc tachycardia   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #12336 of 12604 |
Re: [ekg_club] SVT or junc tachycardia

Tom-

It is hard to get people to understand that, it is far easier to accept the easy term than to read the fine print.
 
=====================================
Russell Stine
Firefighter/Paramedic, E23C
Memphis, TN Division of Fire Services
901-596-6609 (Cell)
901-746-9654 (Home)



From: Tom Bouthillet <tbouthillet@...>
To: ekg_club@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 12:06:25 PM
Subject: Re: [ekg_club] SVT or junc tachycardia

Robert Vroman wrote:
 
<snip>
 
"As far as the subsequent discussion of rates goes, my understanding is that the category of SVT is not really considered until the rate is over 150. That is because at rates less than that if P waves are present they will be seen. However the key word is considered, and this classification should be a last ditch usage. It is very possible to be able to identify the actual rhythm at rates over 150, and it can indeed be sinus as well as others.  I have often heard 180 used as the theoretical upper limit of the sinus node. However is there any evidence to support this? In school I remember learning the formula Paul mentioned (220 – age). Also I have not seen it this year in the coverage of the Tour de France, but I remember a few years ago they would show the riders heart rates which were many times above 180. I would assume those were sinus rhythms."
 
I see the disconnect now.
 
Once you accept that sinus tachycardia is a form of SVT, this view is no longer tenable.. As the most frequently encountered SVT, sinus tachycardia is the first heart rhythm I consider when I'm dealing with a narrow complex tachycardia, and as Paul mentioned, you always have to consider whether or not it's a compensatory tachycardia. I consider the Hs and Ts for all tachycardias. The other issue with regard to atrial complexes is that when you have sinus tachycardia with 1AVB, the P waves can be obscured by the preceding T wave at rates below 150. What would you call junctional tachycardia at 140 beats/min? Something other than SVT? On occasion I've seen 2:1 atrial tachycardia that was mistaken for sinus tachycardia because every other atrial complex was buried in the QRS/T complex. While atrial flutter with 2:1 conduction is often right at 150, sometimes it's faster and sometimes it's slower. It's still SVT. Same with AF w/RVR. That's the problem with imprecise definitions and ambiguous umbrella terms like SVT that are used as if they are actual heart rhythms as opposed to a specific category of heart rhythms. By definition, a tachycardia is a heart rate > 100. By definition, if it's supraventricular then it's anything that originates above the ventricles. Why complicate matters by throwing in arbitrary criteria that add no value in terms of figuring out the diagnosis and can in fact be misleading?

Tom

--
Tom Bouthillet
Lieutenant / Paramedic
Town of Hilton Head Island
Fire & Rescue Division
843-247-3453 (cell)
ems12lead.blogspot. com

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Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:50 pm

rj.stine
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Message #12336 of 12604 |
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This is a woman come in ewith plapitation and normal BP. Canon A wave was seen. No P wave can be seen.Rate is less than 150. R wave in Avr lead. No retrograde...
ltongtaa
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Jul 14, 2009
7:35 am

Just to clarify, SVT is an umbrella term for all non-ventricular tachycardias. So the right question is, "What kind of SVT is this?" Tom Sent from my iPhone...
Tom Bouthillet
code3insc
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Jul 14, 2009
9:51 am
Wouldn't Ü like ...
treborcline
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Jul 14, 2009
10:25 am

Says who? Or by SVT do you mean a reentrant tachycardia specifically? Tom Sent from my iPhone On Jul 14, 2009, at 6:25 AM, Wouldn't Ü like to know...
Tom Bouthillet
code3insc
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Jul 14, 2009
10:40 am

Only because I know someone has the answer...? Where did the rate of 150 come to be the determinant between "SVT" and non?? Why don't all monitors allow the...
kavinin@...
misafetytrainer
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Jul 14, 2009
11:07 am

That is a horrible EMS myth, Jon. I've reviewed cases where Adenocard was given to sinus tachycardia, simply because it was 160 bpm and "couldn't have been...
Tom Bouthillet
code3insc
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Jul 14, 2009
11:37 am

Tom: My point is clarified here and in the other posts.? SVT is a largely non-specific term (vs VT) for rhythms with a rate at or above 150, when, really,...
kavinin@...
misafetytrainer
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Jul 15, 2009
4:12 pm

a few things, using heart rate alone is not a good way to make an ecg dx, think about a "nornal" stress test, a 20y old would be expected to hit 200bpm (sinus)...
PMATERAMD@...
pmateramd
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Jul 14, 2009
1:40 pm

Hi all   This is SVT and that's all. I don't know why you are negotiating and wasting your time? HAVAL LUTFALLA ... From: ltongtaa <ltongtaa@...> ...
haval surchi
havalandonly...
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Jul 14, 2009
12:11 pm

What kind of SVT is it, Haval Lutfalla? Sinus tachycardia? AF w/RVR? AVNRT? AVRT? Junctional tach? Calling it SVT only points toward a group of abnormal heart...
Tom Bouthillet
code3insc
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Jul 14, 2009
12:33 pm

Chill out all we are on the same side :-). It is important to label things correctly because when you for example say VT everyone knows what you mean, can draw...
PMATERAMD@...
pmateramd
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Jul 14, 2009
2:51 pm

  Sorry for my quick typing before.   I know SVT is a large pool of all kind include the junctional tachycardia.  No P wave: not sinus tachycardiaof course...
suthaporn lumlertgul
ltongtaa
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Jul 14, 2009
3:26 pm

I will come out of "lurker mode" and give my two cents on this one. I would go with junctional tach for a couple of reasons. First, the rate is such that if P...
Robert Vroman
scooby_437
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Jul 14, 2009
4:06 pm

Robert just to chime in the heart rate thing. 220 - age * 0.85 is the normal "expected" heart rate for someone during exercise. I've seen it be much lower (if...
Nikiah Nudell
mtparamednick
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Jul 14, 2009
4:32 pm

Robert Vroman wrote: <snip> "As far as the subsequent discussion of rates goes, my understanding is that the category of SVT is not really considered until the...
Tom Bouthillet
code3insc
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Jul 14, 2009
5:07 pm

"Once you accept that sinus tachycardia is a form of SVT, this view is no longer tenable." This of course may be semantics and the opinions of various people,...
Robert Vroman
scooby_437
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Jul 14, 2009
5:44 pm

Yes, it does usually cause a distortion of some kind in the preceding T-wave, but if they're all identical (1:1 relationship to the QRS/T) then it's hard to...
Tom Bouthillet
code3insc
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Jul 14, 2009
5:54 pm

Tom- It is hard to get people to understand that, it is far easier to accept the easy term than to read the fine print. ===================================== ...
Russell Stine
rj.stine
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Jul 14, 2009
5:50 pm
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