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-------- Original Message --------
Subject:  [IronCage] Ark. lawmaker suggests legalizing pot
Date:  Sat, 21 Nov 2009 17:35:23 -0600
From:  Texoma Coalition <t4texas@...>
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wreg.com /news/sns-ap-ar--arksenator-marijuana,0,1850225.story

   WREG

     Ark. lawmaker suggests legalizing marijuana to address prison
     overcrowding

By Associated Press

10:42 AM CST, November 20, 2009

LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP)  A state senator says that legalizing or
lessening criminal penalties for marijuana may be one way to curb
overcrowding in Arkansas' prisons.

Sen. Randy Laverty, a Democrat from Jasper, said Thursday he wanted to
wait for legislative research and data from the Department of Correction
before he decides whether to sponsor legislation to lessen or eliminate
criminal penalties for the drug.

Laverty said at a legislative hearing this week that there should be
debate about legalization after asking prison officials how many inmates
are in jail on marijuana offenses. Laverty suggested that those using
the drug for medical purposes shouldn't be punished.

Laverty said he wouldn't consider sponsoring any proposals on the issue
until the 2011 session.

___

Information from: Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, http://www.arkansasonline.com

#55001

From: "Campaign@..." <campaign@...>
Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:56 pm
Subject: OPEN LETTER to Professor Corinne Le Quere from Astra d'Oudney, DEMOCRACY DEFINED.

theddcampaign

Offline

GLOBAL WARMING OR NOT -- THE CBEE SOLUTION: CHEAP, NON-POLLUTING, RENEWABLE, TOTAL WORLD REPLACEMENT FOR FOSSILS AND URANIUM ISBN 9781902848068,

Greetings ! We hope you are well.

This OPEN LETTER is for your interest.

DEMOCRACY DEFINED CAMPAIGN CIRCULAR

November, 2009. #4

With our best wishes,

Kenn. Astra.

http://www.democracydefined.org/
The Home Page of The Democracy Defined Campaign
for RESTORATION and UNIVERSAL ADOPTION of
CONSTITUTIONAL COMMON LAW TRIAL BY JURY.

The Democracy Defined Campaign Philosophy is endorsed by academics, attorneys,

doctors (of jurisprudence, medicine, homeopathy, philosophy, etc.) and judges (U.S. & U.K.).

(Standard English Spelling)

VERITAS, COGNITIO, IUSTITIA, LIBERTAS.

Democratic Trial by Jury alone proffers the preservation of individuals without prejudice
in regard to their nationality, race, gender, religion and background."
See Democracy Defined Essay EIS#10 "We the People and the Matter of Words."

ON THE CBEE FORMULATION, FUEL-ENERGY, CO2 & CLIMATE:

-- AN OPEN LETTER TO --
CORINNE LE QU�R�, THE IPCC, ET AL.

To Professor C. Le Qu�r�,
Contributor to the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change;

Strategic Alliance Senior Fellow, the British Antarctic Survey;
University of East Anglia, Norwich.

IN RESPONSE TO: "The 6

�C rise now being anticipated is in stark contrast to the rise at which all international climate policy, including that of Britain and the EU, hopes to stabilise the warming � two degrees being seen as the threshold of climate change which is dangerous for society and the natural world. The study by Professor Le Qu�r� and her team, published in the journal Nature Geoscience, envisages a far higher figure. "We're at the top end of the IPCC scenario," she said." Etc.

Dear Corinne Le Qu�r�,

The CBEE Formulation in THE REPORT ISBN 9781902848204 is endorsed by renowned academics, environmental experts, official government advisers (U.S. & U.K.), doctors of a variety of disciplines, and judges (U.S. & U.K.).

THE REPORT has a Foreword by Nobel laureate Professor MILTON FRIEDMAN, former Economics' Adviser to the U.S. government; author, video and TV series writer and presenter; Senior Research Fellow, Hoover Institution on War, Revolution and Peace; Professor Emeritus, University of Chicago. See endorsements and reviews.

The CBEE Formulation in THE REPORT proves the non-polluting replacement for fossils and uranium is not only already discovered but immediately available. The CBEE Solution proves the clean-combusting CH3OH pyrolytic cannabis-methanol product (Modern Uses of Cannabis Sativa) is the uniquely cheap, non-polluting, biomass-renewable fuel-energy resource capable of the total world replacement of fossils and uranium, combustion of which yields ZERO net increase of atmospheric CO2 and other greenhouse gases.

The CBEE Formulation demonstrates the means by which world fuel-energy needs are met without ANY increase in atmospheric CO2. Self-evidently, this phenomenon far exceeds the aspirations and provisions of Kyoto or Copenhagen, for these latter envisage continued utilisation of polluting fossils (and uranium).

The CBEE Formulation in THE REPORT also contains the method by which effective 'sink' reductions can be induced in the quantity of atmospheric CO2, if this becomes advisable or imperative.

THE REPORT's legal exposition and studies (Seven Parts) together with The Economics of The CBEE Solution and their associated political and social facts, amount to a philosophy and a unique solution: THE RESTORATION PROGRAM. Adoption of this Program proffers a beneficent transformation to mankind's socio-political modus vivendi, and the global economy.

Implementation of The CBEE Formulation enables an exponential amelioration of the entire world population's Standard of Living, simultaneously eradicating poverty and famine. The tropical and sub-tropical countries of the Third World enjoy the geographical advantage of cultivating and cropping from the same plant, up to three harvests per annum of the protein-rich staple seed-food, of the fibre, and of cellulose-biomass producing virtually illimitable quantities of clean fuel for land, sea and air transportation, and from which to generate electricity at power stations. Countries which are currently financially crippled by the costs of imported fuel-energy become self-sufficient, and net fuel-energy exporters.

Amongst other revelations and evidence disclosed by THE REPORT, I am providing you herewith some brief excerpts and information from Part Two:

[BY PERMISSION, � EXCERPTS FROM AND COMMENTS ON
THE REPORT ISBN 9781902848204.]

SCIENTIFIC SOLUTION TO THE WORLD CRISIS.
MODERN USES OF CANNABIS:

"For Mankind's macroeconomic requirements, energy derived from cannabis is cheaper than energy from coal, oil, natural gas, uranium, wind and wave-power, ethanol, geo-thermal, bio-diesel and pressed-seed vegetable oils, hydrogen-from-water electrical separation, etc. Cannabis is the most economical resource to fuel and energy known to Mankind. Cannabis-Methanol provides fuel which is pollution-free."

"To the question, 'Scientific Solution � why cannabis ?' � the answer follows:"

"Firstly, Cannabis Sativa is the most prolific and quick-growing bulk-producing wood-plant species. Secondly, the best explanation of how cannabis can replace Mankind's misuse of fossils and uranium as 'fuel', is contained in the following axiom:"

"Everything which is derived from hydrocarbons can also be derived from carbohydrates."

"Carbohydrates are the basis of biomass; that is, organic material, plants and organisms. Oil and coal are fossilised biomass. All are carbon-based matter. Commercial goods (plastics, man-made fibres, products, paints, chemicals, etc.) fuel and energy now extracted from oil and coal can equally be produced from fresh, recently grown biomass. The technical viability of biomass as a resource to fuel and energy is well established and demonstrated."

[See techno-scientific bibliography in THE REPORT.]

The Pyrolytic Reactor
A Fractionating Column for the
Destructive Distillation of Biomass
to Obtain Fuel & Products.

THE CANNABIS BIOMASS RESOURCE

and PYROLYSIS FUNCTIONS:

The CBRPF

versus

FOSSILS & URANIUM

Cannabis is the most prolific, cultivable dry biomass cellulose-wood-plant species on Earth, uniquely and immediately capable of the economical (cheap) replacement of all Mankind's misuse of high-pollutant, costly fossils and uranium, for energy, petro-chemical products, lubricants, fuel-oils, petrol-gasoline and all types of plastic (cellulosic polymers).

THE FREE*, CLEAN SOURCE OF WORLD FUEL-ENERGY.

Nota Bene: When cannabis is cultivated for its profitable, protein-rich nutritious staple cereal seed-food (which does not contain relaxant ingredients), the cellulose-rich wood-hurds (bulk residues) and the fibres are by-products which are production-cost-free* (i.e., FREE). These by-products are source to literally thousands of commerical products, all derived from a production-cost-free resource.

77 to 80 per cent of the biomass of cannabis is comprised of cellulose, a carbohydrate ideal for conversion into the hydrocarbons of fuel. Improved on by modern techniques to achieve efficient conversion of biomass into fuel, pyrolysis is one of Mankind's earliest technologies, an ancient skill used in Pharaonic times to produce oleaginous embalming fluid for mummification. The same process is used today to refine oil.

Pyrolysis should not be confused with bio-chemical conversion (fermentation) of sugar-to-alcohol which is a capital-investment intensive (costly), slow, skilled labour-requiring and an energy-consuming method producing the inferior ethanol not methanol. By contrast, pyrolysis produces the variety of liquid fuels and lubricants type-similar to gasoline and subterranean oil --- but the utilisation of cannabis-methanol incurs NO pollution (ref. chemical equation of clean combustion hereinafter).

Pyrolysis is the decomposing of biomass (fresh or fossil) by the heat of anaerobic (reduced air) combustion which converts organic material into gases and/or fuel oils.

In this way, Cannabis Biomass is the direct substitute for the fossilised biomass of coal and petroleum. With the hot 'off-gases' collected, which cool to condense into liquid fuels, pyrolysis is also known in modern refining as 'thermochemical decomposition' or as 'wood distillation', or as 'destructive distillation'.

Methanol has been the official fuel to power the racing cars of the famed Indy 500 Series for the last thirty years. Ridiculously, because of prohibition, it is synthesised by costly energy-consuming industrial procedures from subterranean oil, instead of from cost-free by-products of cannabis crops.

The following example refers to the U.S., but applies to all agricultural areas, and includes marginal (poor production) land:

A. The U.S. National "Soil Bank's" registered fallow land (circa 89 million acres) can be planted with soil-enriching, non-depletive cannabis as a fallow rotation crop, producing enough Cannabis-Methanol, oil, lubricants and BTU-gas for all North American land, sea and air transportation requirements.

Note that from only 2 crops (8 months, temperate climate) each acre produces not less than 20 tons of Cannabis Biomass-Hurds, which yield approx. 2,000 (U.S.) gallons of methanol. This estimate is conservatively minimised: the large 'THC-rich' Sativas yield significantly more hurds-biomass per acre. By pyrolysis conversion, biomass delivers 5,000 - 8,000 BTUs per pound. Approximately 6 per cent of the agricultural land area of the contiguous United States would produce more Cannabis Biomass than is required to supply all current land, sea and air transportation demand for gasoline, diesel, oil and lubricants for that energy-voracious country. See THE REPORT.

B. Dresden Cotton � is the name given to the textile product made by the cheap cold-chlorination process which converts (production-cost-free, i.e., free) cannabis fibres, making them indistinguishable from cotton. By adding the Mississippi Cotton Region and marginal, unproductive land (nevertheless well-suited to cannabis cultivation) to the acreage of the National Soil Bank, sufficient cannabis fuel is produced for all foreseeable U.S. power-plant production of electricity for industrial, business and domestic use, replacing coal and uranium.

Ergo: The energy-voracious U.S. nation thereby becomes not only self-sufficient, but a net fuel-energy exporter -- without planting up a single new acre nor subtracting land area from current food production.

THE CBEE FORMULATION:
PRODUCTS RESOURCED FREE.

The 'THC-rich' Cannabis Sativa grows up to and over 15 feet (c. 5 metres) in height without fertiliser in a single season (4 months), yielding:

~delectable protein-rich meat-substitute staple seed food (no relaxant in seed and similar to soya), producing 'meat-loaf', cereals, nut-butter, plant milk, yoghurt-curds, cold-pressed vegetable oil for cuisine; contains the requisite amino acids essential to the effective functioning of the human immune system;
~cellulose-rich bulk wood-hurds for virtually unlimited quantities of pyrolytic cannabis-methanol fuel and lubricants for all industrial and domestic electricity generation and transportation requirements;
~hurds for cellulosic polymerisation producing plastics (all types), man-made fibres (e.g. nylon), resins, varnish and paints;
~hurds as superior resource to trees for paper, newsprint and card;
~hurds for chipboard modern furniture materials;
~lightweight building materials (Isochanvre �) and,
~juvenile to mature plants yield all grades of natural fibre for textiles, clothing, velours, etc. (also see Dresden Cotton �).

Note: The 'THC-free' ruderalis and related hybrids licensed in some countries are inadequate for the industrial uses for which they purport to be licensed. Misnamed "industrial hemp," the hybrids comprise puny species low in yield of seed, fibre, and not more than 50-60 per cent (including roots) of the cellulose-biomass bulk provided by the 'THC-rich' real cannabis sativa (see below).

NET ZERO-EMISSION CANNABIS-METHANOL COMBUSTION.

Chemical equation and explanation showing clean combustion of cannabis-methanol:

2CH₃OH + 3O₂ → 2CO₂ + 4H₂O.

Combustion of Cannabis-Methanol, CH3OH, emits only water H2O (as steam) and carbon dioxide CO2. Regarding the CO2 emission, on combustion the carbon bonds with oxygen: CO2 is released into the atmosphere; but, an equivalent quantity of carbon is absorbed by the next fuel-crop in cultivation. This is termed a 'closed-cycle' to signify no net increase of atmospheric CO2 is produced by the use of cannabis for fuels.

Similarly, the cannabis crop itself has been formed by photosynthesis, subtracting from carbon already in the atmosphere.

GLOBAL WARMING STOPPED:

Activation of The Cannabis Biomass Energy Equation initiates a beneficial all-encompassing, immediate stabilising influence on the 'greenhouse effect' of Global Warming:

1.) by reducing to ZERO, the world fuel-combustion component of overall carbon dioxide atmospheric increase, and

2.) by subtracting from atmospheric CO2 whenever cannabis is utilised as resource to non-combusted products (see list in previous paragraph). This is because these carbon-based products (namely the fibres for textiles and cellulose-wood-hurds for paper, cardboard, newsprint, chipboard, plastics, man-made fibres, Isochanvre � lightweight cement and building materials, etc.) are sourced from the large cannabis sativa which has itself been formed by photosynthesis of atmospheric carbon (dioxide).

Incidentally, by RELEGALISATION each continent is capable of producing surplus cannabis-fuel for all energy needs, which eliminates transport by ocean-going oil-tankers, rendering their related environmental disasters a thing of the past. By their Prohibition, politicians are directly accountable for all the repeated ecological catastrophes.

Misuse of uranium and the finite, diminishing quantity of astronomically-priced subterranean fossils as 'fuel', benefits only the banking-government-corporate Owners of these poisoning underground minerals; absolutely nobody else�

ULTERIOR MOTIVE AND CONSEQUENCES.

Cannabis Sativa Hemp cannot be patented and it can be cultivated easily everywhere. The Cannabis Biomass Energy Equation (CBEE) Solution proffers free and/or cheap fuel everywhere.

THE REPORT shows how Cannabis-Methanol is easily made at home or anywhere for free in a simple cast-iron oven, RELEGALISATION thereby achieving the Universal Redemocratisation of Fuel-Energy Production (URFEP).

Ulterior motive is behind the illegal prohibition of the world's most prolific and providential source of fuel-energy. Implementation of the CBEE Formulation renders to domestic, small-scale and localised private enterprises, the profits and revenues which currently accrue undeservedly to giant corporations and oil-producing countries' governments. Prohibition legislation and treaties were and remain installed as a covert MONOPOLY on world fuel-energy production, a stranglehold which wreaks extreme damage directly to humankind and the ecosphere.

The unnatural political intervention in the cost of fuel-energy is counter-productive, causing a crushing disincentive to the world�s production of wealth, food and material goods. It produces poor people everywhere, poverty and famine on the world scale. Moreover, politicians compound their traitorous, judicable inhumanity with abject corruption and ulterior crime:

Susceptible, manipulated and overwhelmed by their venality, and intensely driven by the desire to retain the hegemony which derives from monopoly and control over fuel-energy supply, financier-government-corporate vested interests of all political persuasions emplace the fraudulent Prohibition of the world�s most prolific and economical fuel-energy resource: cannabis sativa.

Not only the U.S., Britain, India, Japan, China and the industrialised world, but also the other peoples of Asia, Africa and South America should take special note:

Energy enables all industry (service and manufacturing) and human consumption (heating, cooking, lighting, transport). On a planet-wide average, eight-tenths of the Cost of Living for each person are accounted for by energy related expenditures, resulting from: resource discovery, recovery, supply; transportation; refinery; generation, distribution, retail; and the largest component: government duties (sale-taxes).

THE REPORT AND THE CANNABIS BIOMASS ENERGY EQUATION.

With modern technical and scientific evidence collated from the esoteric Findings of Fact and Conclusions of the empirical studies conducted by world-respected academic and research institutions, presented in consideration of existing laws, national and international, THE REPORT ISBN 9781902848204 constitutes the formal public indictment of Western (and other) governments: i.e., the money-motivated prohibitionists who have framed and maintain legislation which is demonstrated to be unfounded, calumnious, crime-producing, venal, inequitable, and inherently illegal, in THE REPORT's collation of evidence, circumstances and res gest�.

In the last hundred years, there has not been a single ecologically-pertinent fact, theory or postulation embodying practicable potentials as beneficial to the planet and the well-being of its peoples as those of The Cannabis Biomass Energy Equation. This formulation resolves Mankind's most crucial predicament in Economic Affairs and Ecology, to have arisen since the incipience of The Industrial Revolution. Abolition of controls on cannabis renders uranium and the fossil pollutants:

A. commercially obsolete/economically redundant, and

B. achieves their replacement without pollution, while

C. the Economy of the entire world thereby vastly benefits from significantly reduced energy prices.

The acquisition of practical resources and real wealth accrues to whichever countries implement THE REPORT's CBEE Formulation. This is to the tangible betterment of the lot of world populations --- and far preferable to the intended Copenhagen bureaucratic system which entails and produces endemic corruption, that of intergovernmental bank credit transfers...

THE COPENHAGEN FOLLY.

Four-fifths of the cost of all commercial goods and services are based on the cost of energy. Over 80 per cent of the value of Stock traded on the Exchanges of the world is in companies involved in the provision of energy. The Economy of the whole World is put on a false-footing by political Denial (i.e., Prohibition) of the unique Cannabis Resource.

More pernicious than instability, Cannabis Prohibition results in an impoverishment felt by the majority of the world population, being those people least able to afford the present high and ever-increasing cost of energy, food, services and manufactured goods.

The measures of the Copenhagen Treaty exacerbate all the negative aspects of the current economic crisis: for governments to sign up to it would be an act of destructive folly, and premeditated treachery of historic proportions.

Consider the following in the light of the information provided above.

(i) The Copenhagen Treaty results in perpetuation of fossil-fuel sourced CO2 emissions.

(ii) Copenhagen does NOT Relegalise Cannabis Sativa from which to provide cannabis-methanol, the sole fuel capable of world requirements with ZERO increase of CO2.

(iii) The CBEE Solution facilitates exponential increases in world and local production of resources, food and energy, the very substances by which humans exist. Copenhagen flatly negates these potentials.

(iv) Rather than taxing them further, the CBEE Solution enriches world populations.

(v) Now, through the Copenhagen measures, deluded, misled, ignorant and profoundly perfidious Western politicians intend to attack and further lower the Western population's standard of living, which is already devastated through the 'prohibition' on private cannabis-sativa-methanol, cannabis food and cannabis resource production.

(vi) In regard to climate, Copenhagen radically reduces Western people's standard of living to no avail; and seriously jeopardises the people's future security and well-being.

Quotation from THE REPORT:

"Cannabis Prohibition is the greatest fraud of all time: the pernicious effects of this crime are myriad, extreme and ubiquitous. Readers assimilate that Prohibition is the direct cause of: War (e.g. Iraqi invasion of Kuwait to acquire hegemony over oil); Crime; astronomical world energy, resource and food prices, with disastrous and homicidal corollary effects; world poverty; world famine; industrial and automotive emissions poisoning air; photochemical smog and Acid Rain; desertification; the Greenhouse Effect, Global Warming and fatally catastrophic weather; and that RESTORATION is the immediate Scientific Solution."

Corinne,
The paramount facts and phenomena presented by THE REPORT impose a legal and moral obligation on all who are tasked with advising on climate change and fuel-energy to bring this information on The Restoration Program to the fore, and to the attention of all people: media, education and the political establishment.

People doubt the sincerity or knowledge of every person who speaks or writes about the environment, global warming, climate change, macro-economics and fuel-energy without their giving exposition to the demonstrated facts of The CBEE Formulation.

Copenhagen exemplifies ulterior artifice. By contrast, the CBEE Formulation proffers the world fuel without ANY increase at all of atmospheric CO2, thereby instantly rendering the 'eco' and 'carbon tax' measures of the Copenhagen Treaty as of no relevance to world needs. The proposed Copenhagen r�gimes are redundant: Copenhagen's crippling financial impositions would adversely affect the entirety of Western populations for no genuine purpose --- for no (good) reason.

Scrutiny of the circumstances, evidence and res gest� concludes an inexorable verdict: continued 'expert' advocation of the redundant money-measures of Copenhagen would be active involvement in an ongoing criminal subterfuge and enterprise.

As a contributor to the IPCC [UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change], you will appreciate that for individuals or groups such as the Global Carbon Project to ignore the CBEE Solution to global warming, climate-change and world fuel-energy supply, and instead to continue to propose, support or remain tacit in regard to the completely unnecessary infliction of "carbon" and "eco taxation" on the First World under the guise of "helping forestall global warming climate-change" would be to commit perjury, subreption, and participate in the perpetration of massive fraud.
Definition. subreption: concealment of evidence; the perjurious procuring of an advantage by concealing the truth.

Likewise, past and continuing failure to implement The Cannabis Biomass Energy Equation, implicates politicians and bureaucracies in judicable betrayal and criminal dereliction.

Implementation of The RESTORATION Program delineated in THE REPORT radically ameliorates the entire world population's Quality of Life --- and entirely precludes man-made increases in atmospheric CO2.

Corinne,
You can access more information, endorsements and reviews on the synopsis webpage of THE REPORT

THE REPORT ISBN 9781902848204 should be freely available at your local library, and from the library of your faculty at the University of East Anglia, Norwich.

Yours sincerely,

Astra d'Oudney.
DEMOCRACY DEFINED.

"Better never to vote at all than vote for a person who does not make EQUAL JUSTICE the prime aim of government by RESTORATION and UNIVERSAL ADOPTION of Constitutional Common Law Trial by Jury."

Kenn d'Oudney is the author of books and essays including the following:

Kenn d'Oudney est auteur de livres et essais y compris les suivants:
Kenn d'Oudney ist Autor von B�chern und Essays einschlie�lich der folgenden:

THE CONSTITUTION TREATISE: Why the d'Estaing ('European') Constitution-Treaty Is the Antithesis of Democracy ISBN 9781902848747, see website for endorsements by U.S. & U.K. cognoscenti;
http://www.democracydefined.org/5constitution.htm

"The d�Oudney analysis is as insightful as it is comprehensive. It will stand for years to come as the definitive critique of the European Constitution prepared by Giscard d�Estaing and others. I look forward to sharing the d�Oudney analysis with my colleagues."
HOWARD PHILLIPS, Founder, U.S. Constitution Party; three-time presidential nominee; Chairman, Conservative Caucus.

SRC Publishing Ltd., London.

MAGNA CARTA, THE GREAT CHARTER CONSTITUTION; freely downloadable information about the true pan-European and pan-Occidental Constitution;
http://www.democracydefined.org/democracydefinedmaterial.htm

"Thank you for your excellent work on Magna Carta. What a masterly exposition."
JOHN GOURIET, Chairman, Defenders of the Realm; Organiser of the Battle for Britain Campaign supported by The Duke of Wellington; Edward Fox, OBE, and Frederick Forsyth, CBE.
"Kenn, Your rebuttal is masterly. Your essay is a very good read."
ROBIN TILBROOK, Chairman & Party Leader; English Democrat Party.

"Thank you so much for this contribution. It is very much appreciated."
ASHLEY MOTE, MEP (Member of the European Parliament); Vice-President, Alliance of Independent Democrats in Europe.

"Thanks, Kenn. I've circulated this."

SIMON RICHARDS, Campaign Director; The Freedom Association; Founded by the Viscount de L�Isle, VC, KG, PC; Ross McWhirter and Norris McWhirter, CBE.

TRIAL BY JURY: ITS HISTORY, TRUE PURPOSE AND MODERN RELEVANCE ISBN 9781902848723, with endorsements and edited section authored by U.S. lawyer Lysander Spooner;
http://www.democracydefined.org/2trialbyjury.htm

SRC Publishing Ltd., London, world distribution by LULU of North Carolina.

THE REPORT, CANNABIS: THE FACTS, HUMAN RIGHTS AND THE LAW 9781902848204, co-authored by Joanna d'Oudney; Foreword by a Nobel laureate former Official Adviser to the U.S. government; endorsed by a Professor of Physiology Fellow of the Royal Society, academics, doctors (of a variety of disciplines) and judges (U.S. & U.K.); 260 large-size pages;
http://www.democracydefined.org/1report.htm

THE REPORT collates the medico-scientific Findings of Fact of the empirical clinical studies into non-toxic, non-addictive natural herb cannabis (differentiated from laboratory toxic product THC). The official investigations exonerate cannabis from all allegations of 'harm' and 'impairment' (including tests on simulated driving); and exempt cannabis from all legislative criteria of control ('prohibition'). Efficacious in over 100 medical conditions (viz. Official Pharmacopoeias) with potential to replace numerous lucrative, but ineffective debilitating addictive toxic pharmaceuticals, rendering significant financial government-corporate revenue and profit motive (trillions) behind prohibition.

THE REPORT also contains the unprecedented Cannabis Biomass Energy Equation (CBEE) which further exposes massive ulterior motive behind prohibition. The CBEE proves the clean-combusting cannabis-product CH3OH is the cheap non-polluting renewable world replacement for fossils and uranium.

Six Parts (chapters) include expert documentary, legal, academic, scientific, medical, economic, social, criminological, philosophical evidence, and that which is based on grounds of equity, vindicating all cultivation, trade, possession and use and which exposes perjury and venality in prohibition legislation. Part Seven, entitled RESTORATION: JUSTICE AND THE CONSTITUTION, exposes corruption, ineptitude and injustice in the justice process; and examines Law: natural law, supreme legem terr� Constitutional common law, treaties, statutes; quotes presidents, judges, lawyers and chief justices.

"To cause crime to occur is to be accountable for the crime, morally and legally. To consent to any measure is to share responsibility for its results." See Part Six of THE REPORT, PROHIBITION: THE PROGENITOR OF CRIME. Legalised, cannabis grows anywhere: the benign herb's foliage and flowers come free or at an insignificant price, but yielding no revenues to government and no profits to corporations. However, prohibition creates the Black Market: the Economic Effects of Prohibition (scarcity + enforcement, etc.) augment "street" value by 3000% plus, making all Black Market associated crime inevitable. The political commodities' prohibition, i.e., War on Drugs, engenders (causes) not less than 75 - 80 percent of all crimes (official statistics) throughout the West.
"You have done a splendid job of producing a comprehensive summary of the evidence documenting that the prohibition of the production, sale and use of cannabis is utterly unjustified and produces many harmful effects. Any impartial person reading your REPORT will almost certainly end up favouring the re-legalisation of cannabis."
NOBEL LAUREATE PROFESSOR MILTON FRIEDMAN, former Economics� Adviser to U.S. government; Author, video and TV series writer and presenter; Senior Research Fellow, Hoover Institution on War, Revolution and Peace; Professor Emeritus, University of Chicago.

�You represent a worthy part of the fight in many countries for the logical and beneficial use of cannabis. I thank you for that.�
PROFESSOR PATRICK D. WALL, Author; Professor of Physiology, UMDS St. Thomas's (Teaching) Hospital, London; Fellow of the Royal Society; DM, FRCP.

SRC Publishing Ltd., London, world distribution by LULU of North Carolina.

endorsed by Economics' Nobel laureate Professor Milton Friedman, former official Adviser to the U.S. government; and the official Adviser to U.K. government on Environment; and academics and doctors of a variety of disciplines;

doubt the sincerity or knowledge of any who speak or write about the environment and fuel-energy without their giving exposition to the demonstrated facts of The CBEE Formulation;

http://www.democracydefined.org/3globalwarming.htm

SRC Publishing Ltd., London.

WE THE PEOPLE AND THE MATTER OF WORDS; freely downloadable, indispensable information for the creation and sustainment of legitimate government and society;
http://www.democracydefined.org/democracydefinedmaterial.htm

DEMOCRACY DEFINED: ON THE ETYMOLOGY, HISTORY AND SIGNIFICATION OF THE WORD DEMOCRACY; the Sciences of Etymology, Semantics, Semasiology, and Philology determine whether your country is a definitive democracy or your government is a despotism. Viz. The word �democracy� is widely abused and �defined� incorrectly: Democracy is a state of society realised neither by referenda (mass voting for new laws), nor by suffrage (electoral voting for representatives), nor by the representatives� majorities� legislative voting. Electoral voting, majority rule and �consensus politics� neither create nor define democracy. This essay summarises the unique signification and inestimable value to the human race of genuine Constitutional Democracy.

http://www.democracydefined.org/democracydefinedcampaign.htm#democracy

9-11 TRUTH LINKS COMPENDIUM; exposition with select video analysis & lectures; contributions by professors, architects, scientists, Federal Aviation Authority experts, former CIA, FBI, military and government officals; freely download this Compendium which serves as an introduction to the subject, and as a source of additional references for those already familiar with the 9/11 Truth Movement;

http://www.democracydefined.org/democracydefinedmaterial.htm

THE VALUE OR OTHERWISE OF LAW DICTIONARIES; part of the contents of a forthcoming book to be published by SRC Publishing. It is nevertheless, for the time being anyway, downloadable for free;
http://www.democracydefined.org/democracydefinedmaterial.htm

ON REFERENDA AND MAJORITY RULE; part of the contents of a forthcoming book downloadable for free;

http://www.democracydefined.org/democracydefinedmaterial.htm

RADIOACTIVITY FROM CROPS FED WITH PHOSPHATE �FERTILISER� IS THE PRINCIPAL CAUSE OF CANCER; some Findings of Fact downloadable for free, extracted from THE REPORT ISBN 9781902848204 (referred to above);

http://www.democracydefined.org/democracydefinedmaterial.htm

THE BURIED PRIMORDIAL ATMOSPHERE; empirical facts demonstrated and atmospheric carbon dioxide infra-red science explained; why and how the global warming 'sceptics' are deceiving the public; their motive and discrepancies revealed; on the governmental financial subterfuge of carbon and eco 'taxes'; and how the proven CBEE Formulation makes available the pollution-free, renewable, cheap replacement for fossils and uranium, as endorsed by Economics' Nobel laureate, U.K. government Adviser on Environment, technical & environment experts, and academics;

http://www.democracydefined.org/3globalwarming.htm

CHIEF JUSTICE VAUGHAN'S RULING; on perhaps the most famous trial in history; Juror's Rights and Duty and the Old Bailey Commemorative Plaque;
http://www.democracydefined.org/democracydefinedcampaign2.htm#intervention

WHY THE LEGAL PROFESSION CANNOT DEFEND YOU; consider some of the breaches of common law and Constitution to which modern government resorts in order to enforce its inequitable and money-motivated statutes;

http://www.democracydefined.org/democracydefinedcampaign4.htm#lawyers

Science News

Cigarettes Harbor Many Pathogenic Bacteria

ScienceDaily (Nov. 20, 2009) — Cigarettes are "widely contaminated" with bacteria, including some known to cause disease in people, concludes a new international study conducted by a University of Maryland environmental health researcher and microbial ecologists at the Ecole Centrale de Lyon in France.

The research team describes the study as the first to show that "cigarettes themselves could be the direct source of exposure to a wide array of potentially pathogenic microbes among smokers and other people exposed to secondhand smoke." Still, the researchers caution that the public health implications are unclear and urge further research.

"We were quite surprised to identify such a wide variety of human bacterial pathogens in these products," says lead researcher Amy R. Sapkota, an assistant professor in the University of Maryland's School of Public Health.

"The commercially-available cigarettes that we tested were chock full of bacteria, as we had hypothesized, but we didn't think we'd find so many that are infectious in humans," explains Sapkota, who holds a joint appointment with the University's Maryland Institute for Applied Environmental Health and the department of epidemiology and biostatistics.

"If these organisms can survive the smoking process -- and we believe they can -- then they could possibly go on to contribute to both infectious and chronic illnesses in both smokers and individuals who are exposed to environmental tobacco smoke," Sapkota adds. "So, it's critical that we learn more about the bacterial content of cigarettes, which are used by more than a billion people worldwide."

The study will appear in an upcoming edition of the journal Environmental Health Perspectives.

Public Health Significance

The researchers describe the study as the first snapshot of the total population of bacteria in cigarettes. Previous researchers have taken small samples of cigarette tobacco and placed them in cultures to see whether bacteria would grow. But Sapkota's team took a more holistic approach using DNA microarray analysis to estimate the so-called bacterial metagenome, the totality of bacterial genetic material present in the tested cigarettes.

Among the study's findings and conclusions:

Commercially available cigarettes show a broad array of bacterial diversity, ranging from soil microorganisms to potential human pathogens;
The is the first study to provide evidence that the numbers of microorganisms in a cigarette may be as "vast as the number of chemical constituents;"
Hundreds of bacterial species were present in each cigarette, and additional testing is likely to increase that number significantly;
No significant variability in bacterial diversity was observed across the four different cigarette brands examined: Camel; Kool Filter Kings; Lucky Strike Original Red; and Marlboro Red;
Bacteria of medical significance to humans were identified in all of the tested cigarettes and included Acinetobacter (associated with lung and blood infections); Bacillus (some varieties associated with food borne illnesses and anthrax); Burkholderia (some forms responsible for respiratory infections); Clostridium(associated with foodborne illnesses and lung infections); Klebsiella (associated with a variety of lung, blood and other infections); and Pseudomonas aeruginosa (an organism that causes 10 percent of all hospital-acquired infections in the United States).

"Now that we've shown that a pack of cigarettes is loaded with bacteria, we will conduct follow-up research to determine the possible roles of these organisms in tobacco-related diseases." Sapkota says.

For example, do cigarette-borne bacteria survive the burning process and go on to colonize smokers' respiratory systems? Existing research suggests that some hardy bacteria can be transmitted this way, the researchers say. This might account for the fact that the respiratory tracts of smokers are characterized by higher levels of bacterial pathogens. But it's also possible that smoking weakens natural immunity and the bacteria come from the general environment rather than from cigarettes. Further research will be needed to determine the possible health impacts of cigarette-borne bacteria.

Sapkota is the lead and corresponding author. She conducted the research with Sibel Berger under the guidance of Timothy M. Vogel in 2007 at the Environmental Microbial Genomics Group, Laboratoire Ampère, UMR CNRS 5005, Ecole Centrale de Lyon in Lyon, France.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

#54999

From: "skywolf" <indyskywolf@...>
Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:30 pm
Subject: Re: [CPOP] They'll have bragging rights the rest of their lives!

indyskywolf...

Offline

Definitely another one for the annals of Marijuana history!

I claim credit for the pot growing in the back yard of the Indiana University President. Planted in in 1973. Still keeps coming up each year<G>

Skywolf

If we keep doing what we're doing, we'll keep getting what we're getting

----- Original Message -----

From: Glenn

To: CPOP

Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 2:06 PM

Subject: [CPOP] They'll have bragging rights the rest of their lives!

FAIL!

-g-

Pot Farm Found Behind Police Station

Marijuana growing site 25 feet from LAPD station.

Updated: Wednesday, 18 Nov 2009, 11:00 PM PST
Published : Wednesday, 18 Nov 2009, 4:26 PM PST

Video from:
FOX 11 News

Text Story by:
CNS

Reporter:
Michael Brownlee

Posted by: Scott Coppersmith, Tony Spearman

Canoga Park - Los Angeles police today busted a sophisticated marijuana farm inside an industrial building 25 feet from the back door of the Topanga Community Police Station.

About a week ago, officers smelled marijuana coming from the building at 8411 Canoga Ave., just a few feet from the station at 21501 Schoenborn St., said Officer Karen Rayner of the LAPD's Media Relations Section.

They notified the narcotics unit which started an investigation.

"They noticed that traffic in and out of the building was very minimal. The ventilation had also been upgraded. The utility bills were disproportionately higher. The rooms in the building were filled with hydroponics equipment," Rayner said.

Rayner said the farmers had also "gone to great lengths to filter the air coming out of every hole that might leak to the outside." She said that all the places where the smell might have come had been plugged with liquid caulking stuff.

"But it was not enough," Rayner said. "Their luck ran out."

Three suspects were still being booked so their names could not be released, Rayner said. The amount of marijuana in the building had not yet been tabulated.

A warrant was served in the building about 3 p.m. Detectives estimated the operation had been going on for about eight months, Rayner said.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (2)

#54998

From: patrick mc govern <mcgvrn_ptrck@...>
Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:58 am
Subject: Democrats fighting for your freedom

mcgvrn_ptrck

Offline

It is not the man who has little, but the man who craves more, that is poor

NORML Blog

Marijuana Law Reform Is A Political Opportunity — Not A Political Liability
Posted: 20 Nov 2009 11:45 AM PST

Last January I proclaimed in the The Hill’s Congress blog: “Marijuana law reform is no longer a political liability; it’s a political opportunity.” Ten months later it appears that an unprecedented number of state-elected officials are heeding the message. Here’s just a sample.

COLORADO: Last week the Commission on Criminal and Juvenile Justice recommended legislators to substantially reduce marijuana penalties so that the possession of up to four ounces of pot would classified as a petty offense. Offenses involving greater amounts of cannabis (up to 16 ounces) would be reduced to a misdemeanor. State Attorney General John Suthers told the Denver Post that he supports the Commission’s recommendations which, if enacted, would make Colorado’s pot possession laws among the most lenient in the nation.

RHODE ISLAND: A special nine-member Senate panel met for the first time this week to debate revising the state’s criminal marijuana policies. The panel’s chair, Democrat Sen. Joshua Miller, said that the task-force will primarily focus on the subject of decriminalization, but that members will also likely debate the merits of taxing a regulating the adult use of cannabis. The panel’s recommendations to the legislature are due on January 10, 2010. In 2009, Rhode Island’s legislature became only the second to approve legislation licensing the establishment of medical cannabis dispensaries.

WISCONSIN: Democrat Gov. Jim Doyle recently announced his support for legislation that seeks to make Wisconsin the fourteenth state to allow for the legal use of medical cannabis. Both the Assembly and the Senate Public Health Committees are scheduled to hear testimony in favor of the legislation, known as the Jacki Rickert Medical Marijuana Act, on Tuesday, December 15, 2009.

WASHINGTON: Incoming Seattle city attorney Peter Holmes announced this week that his office will no longer charge anyone with simple marijuana possession offenses. “We’re not going to bring any more (marijuana possession) charges,” he said. There are other more important, more pressing public safety matters in need of attention with the limited resources we have.” Holmes added that he supports legislation that stalled in 2009 that seeks to depenalize marijuana. Those proposals are expected to be heard by the legislature in 2010.

PENNSYLVANIA: Next month legislators will hold their first hearing — ever — on legalizing the use of medical cannabis. The House Committee on Health and Human Services will hear testimony on HB 1393, The Barry Busch Compassionate Use Medical Marijuana Act of 2009, on Wednesday, December 2, at 11am in Room 140 of the Main Capitol. Contact Philly NORML for further details.

ARKANSAS: Democrat Senator Randy Laverty announced this week that he is considering introducing legislation to lessen or eliminate criminal penalties for marijuana possession offenses. Legislators in several other states, including New Hampshire and Texas, are also expected to debate marijuana legalization proposals in 2010.

CALIFORNIA: In the coming months legislators are expected to hold additional hearings on Assembly Bill 390, the Marijuana Control, Regulation, and Education Act, which seeks to tax and regulate the commercial production and retail sale of cannabis to those age 21 or older. The California Assembly Committee on Public Safety is anticipated to vote on the measure by late January. The vote will mark the first time that California, or the legislature of any state, has voted on the issue of cannabis regulation in over three decades.

By any standard, 2010 will be a historic year for legislative activity regarding marijuana law reform. Will you play a role in bringing common sense marijuana regulations to your community? Get active, get NORML, and be the change you want to see!

Philadelphia could save $3 million annually by ending marijuana mug shots
Posted: 19 Nov 2009 07:07 PM PST

(PhillyNORML: Chris Goldstein & Derek Rosenzweig) Philadelphia could save more than $3,000,000 annually by not taking pot smokers in for mugshots.

Minor marijuana possession arrests in Philadelphia are handled with mandatory custody; this is a different process than every other county in Pennsylvania costing the city millions of dollars. A disproportionate number of citizens (84%) arrested for marijuana possession in the city are black.

Research by PhillyNORML this year has uncovered these two disturbing trends that present serious challenges to the city. But in a sign of a pragmatic shift in attitudes, city officials have held an ongoing dialogue with reform advocates to proactively address these concerns.

In March of 2009 the Philadelphia chapter of the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws performed their annual observation of the Pennsylvania Uniform Crime Report data for the marijuana arrest numbers. At the same time, the city was beginning to face a heartbreaking economic plight that pitted police jobs against a lack of Public Safety Budget funds.

Data indicates that 4,716 adults were arrested in 2008 on the singular criminal misdemeanor charge of marijuana possession less than 30 grams. In Philadelphia such arrests are required to be custodial. For even a single cannabis joint this means an offender must be handcuffed, transported to a holding cell, photographed and perhaps make bail before release. In every other county in Pennsylvania there is no mandate for the custodial arrest of citizens found with small amounts of marijuana. Instead, summary violations are issued along with a date to appear in court.

PhillyNORML is a sterling example of how ordinary cannabis consumers can band together under the NORML banner and affect real change at the local level. Reformers at the national level don’t have the on-the-ground knowledge of local politics like everyday citizens living in cities like Philadelphia. Local reformers can better cultivate personal relationships with mayors, city councils, and all their staff, as well as integrate with groups as disparate as unions and libertarian groups, parents and police, and churches and universities.

If you’re sitting around wondering when they are going to legalize pot, you’re part of the problem. YOU have to legalize pot. You and your like-minded pot smokers, cannabis consumers, medical marijuana patients, and lovers of liberty, peaceably assembled to exercise your free speech and to petition your government for a redress of grievances… there’s nothing more American than being NORML.

You are subscribed to email updates from NORML Blog
To stop receiving these emails, you may unsubscribe now. Email delivery powered by Google

Google Inc., 20 West Kinzie, Chicago IL USA 60610

#54997

From: Steve Elliott <alapoet@...>
Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:23 pm
Subject: Very Funny! Internet Vices: DIGG is Bong Hits of Weed

alapoet7

Offline

This is quite funny.

http://digg.com/d31Ac8z?e

#54996

From: Floyd <xray.01z@...>
Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:02 pm
Subject: Students taught how to grow marijuana in Detroit's new cannabis college

xray.01z@...

http://greenfloyd.site90.com/_roller.viewer.html?http://www.guardian.co.uk/world\
/2009/nov/20/cannabis-college-detroit
Sort of lends a whole new meaning to the term "higher education"  8-)
--
"Enjoy the ride..."
http://greenfloyd.site90.com/_roller.readerX.php

#54995

From: patrick mc govern <mcgvrn_ptrck@...>
Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:14 pm
Subject: Leading Permaculture Lives

mcgvrn_ptrck

Offline

http://media. www.easternprogr ess.com/media/ storage/paper419 /news/2009/11/12/Features/ living.In. Relationship. With.Nature- 3829730.shtml

'Living in relationship with nature'
     Associate history professor Robert Weise and his family take on eco-friendly lifestyle

Jessica Nicholson
Issue date: 11/12/09 Section: Features

Illustration Omitted
        Eastern professor Rob Weise shares his communal home with four other adults and five children. Weise, along with his wife and two children, moved from their home in downtown Richmond in 2004. Media Credit: Laura Butler

Illustration Omitted
        Weise's home is heated mostly by sunlight shining through its windows. Weise also uses peanut oil as fuel for his car. Media Credit: Laura Butler

For some people, helping the environment means tossing plastic water bottles into the recycling bin, or buying organic vegetables at the grocery store. Nowadays, "going green" is the trendy thing to do as more and more people are trying to conserve energy, electricity and water.

Robert Weise, associate history professor at Eastern, has decided to take the "go-green" challenge to a new level and take on a completely eco-friendly lifestyle.

In 2004, Weise and four other people bought land in Madison County together and began to transform an empty lot of grassland into an eco-savvy community for their families. Wiese, along with his wife and two children, moved from their home in downtown Richmond to a quiet area about five miles from campus.

Contractor Dick Martin collaborated with Weise and his family to build a house that would not only suit their personal needs, but would also allow them to use natural materials in the construction process.

"Our main goal is trying to be good stewards of the land and its natural resources," Weise said.

Sturdy, natural wood and large windows frame the two-story home where Weise and his family live. The windows allow sunlight to heat the house in the winter and provide a cool breeze in the summer. The house is well insulated and Weise said that it was built with floor to ceiling windows to encourage air flow during the hot summer days. Loofa vines grow around the house and act as natural shade to protect the house from too much sunlight in the summer.

"It's a spiritual commitment and journey for us," Weise said. "We wanted to live in relationship with nature in a way that's light on resources."

One of the biggest commitments the Weise family made was the addition of a composting toilet with a dry flushing system. After a long tedious process involving the Board of Health and months of waiting, the Weise family was approved to use their dry flushing system.

A 55-gallon drum filled with straw or hay is used in place of the traditional flushing toilet and sawdust is poured in after someone uses the restroom to help the compost process and keep the smell at bay. It usually takes three months to fill the drum, three months of composting and after two years they are able to use the compost as soil.

Almost every aspect of the Weise's lifestyle and home is geared toward using resources in their natural state and trying not to manipulate them very much. From the car that Weise drives which runs on used peanut oil he collects from fast food restaurants, to the water he uses to wash dishes, everything is economical and environmentally sound.

Massive solar panels outside his home provide electricity to complete day-to-day tasks. Solar energy collected in panels is attached to a grid that provides electricity for the rest of Richmond, and contributes to the electricity produced at the Weise household.

"We don't want to stand completely apart from the rest of the world; we want to be 'connected' in some way," Weise said.

A solar water-heater allows them to use two-thirds solar energy a year, while the rest of the time they use electric power. Weise said that cost saving wasn't a goal in deciding to use solar energy - it was more about being environmentally friendly.

Sometimes being environmentally friendly comes with some competition, at least when it comes to peanut oil. To save money, Weise gets peanut oil from a local restaurant in Richmond to use in one of his cars instead of using gasoline. He said it's somewhat competitive because there are ten people in Madison County who also drive cars using peanut oil and they're all trying to get the same product.

With the amount of rain that Kentucky has had this year, water for the Weise family is one thing they aren't competing for. Sixty-gallon tanks catch rainwater and funnel it into a cistern. They then pump the water into their house. Natural rainwater allows them to shower and wash dishes, and the leftover water is pumped into their garden to water the vegetables.

Delicious looking squash, pumpkins and tomatoes are grown through a style of gardening called permaculture. Unlike regular gardening, this method doesn't rake the land. Instead, hay, leaves and compost are used to cultivate the land and vegetables in the garden.

The Weise family isn't completely shut off from modern technology, though. The main house in their community has a computer and TV that they use at least twice a week.

The families in the community (five adults and five children) gather at least once a month to share dinner and fellowship. Weise said they are all engaged in their spiritual journey together and share this life experience. He and his wife both agree that their pace of life has slowed.

"I feel like I'm in a more natural rhythm," Weise said. "I'm connected to something bigger than myself."

***

.

#54994

From: Glenn <gameochance@...>
Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:01 am
Subject: I didn't think they were illegal as novelty items...

gameochance

Offline

Cheap and Chinese, but still, this is just wrong.

From: http://tinyurl.com/ycajqrd

-g-

316,000 Bongs Land Someone on Customs' Naughty List

O Tannenbong: Customs officials find bongs in 860 boxes

By JONATHAN LLOYD

Updated 2:39 PM PST, Thu, Nov 19, 2009

Print Email Share TWITTER FACEBOOK

Custom officials unwrapped a surprise Tuesday at the Port of LA/Long Beach -- 316,000 glass bongs disguised as Christmas ornaments.

The shipment's value was estimated at more than $2.6 million. The fake ornaments were hidden inside 860 boxes that arrived from China in a shipping container.

Agents said the items were decorated like Christmas ornaments. Before you get any ideas, consider these holiday gift options.

Customs spokeswoman Cristina Gamez says the importer remains under investigation and there have been no arrests.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

#54993

From: "larry" <larry@...>
Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:02 am
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

ltl5448

Offline

I agree James. I would go as far to say, lawfully, there is no reason why people can't grow as much Cannabis as they want and not be taxed for it in any way. However when Cannabis is sold commercially wholesale and retail then the government constitutionally assumes jurisidiction and can tax. Free trade among the people and tax/regulate commercial enitities. I just don't like the idea of taxing people or their property either.

----- Original Message -----

From: James Karl

To: cp3@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 11:31 AM

Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

If one believes that the govt is entitled to a cut out of every transaction (taxes), then this makes sense.
But if one believes that cannabis is already a de facto mainstream commodity which the govt is already getting a very heavy cut out of via repression (fines, etc.), then this makes no sense at all. I for one ain't paying for repression.

End the oppression of cannabis and its consumers. Self defense is always correct, and it is never illegal. b_jb2001

--- On Wed, 11/18/09, ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@...> wrote:

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@...>
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls
To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 7:12 PM

Amen!

On Nov 18, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Glenn wrote:

it seems to me that cannabis can never become a mainstream commodity until it is taxed and controlled like other commodities.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby. org>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 6:51:43 PM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

Hi Steve;; Thanks for being open to the argument. To answer your question about paying $100 fine for possession. As I stated in an earlier post, decrim is a box canyon where there is no way out. I used Oregon as an example, but a better one is Holland that only has a decrim with not legitimizing the industry only the retail sale. There would still a black market society. I want to have my say in the decisions of this land with-out being out-side the law. I want to be a proud American, but can't until this wrong is corrected. No decrim. Legalize and tax. Re-legalize Cannabis. Now is the time to strike, the iron is hot.

Again, I want to thank Steve for being open to the argument... And, for keeping the discussion civil. ed

Do you honestly feel it would be harder to legalize than decrim? And, why do you feel that way? I guess that is all I have to say is, You have listened to the arguments made by fellow CPOP compatriots, how can we deny the relevance. ed

On Nov 18, 2009, at 12:40 PM, Steve Elliott wrote:

I’ve enjoyed this thought-provoking discussion, and am encouraged by it.

I am also Seattle-ish, and also interested.

I’m one of those people who supports both legalization, and until that happens, will be happy about marijuana being decriminalized on the way to getting legal. (How is paying only a $100 fine for 40 grams NOT better than the way it is now, for recreational users?)

The situation as it stands now is clearly untenable, both for the general public, for marijuana consumers, and for medical marijuana patients (who are still having to deal with hostile law enforcement in places like Kitsap County here on the Sound, and through much of Eastern Washington).

--

“Shared pain is lessened; shared joy is increased; thus do we refute entropy.”

~ Spider Robinson

From: Glenn <gameochance@ yahoo.com>
Reply-To: "cp3@yahoogroups. com" <cp3@yahoogroups. com>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:32:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "cp3@yahoogroups. com" <cp3@yahoogroups. com>
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls



I am in the Seattle area, and I am interested.

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby. org>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 10:12:23 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

Any disagreement with my position on legal vs. decrim from those in Washington State? I will be back soon with the date, time, and place for a gathering to explore the potential of a legalize petition. Anyone with ideas, please share. This is as grass-roots as one can get.
Tax and Regulate vs. Keep Marijuana Illegal and Tax Free. I think we can win this fight.

I'll be up-front. I want to be a licensed cannabis provider, with my only costumer being the State of Washington. Let the State license growers, coffee shops, dispensaries, warehouse, and retail through the state liquor stores. Marijuana will be handled the same way in Washington as alcohol.

This is an opportunity to develop a legal cottage industry. Walk into a liquor store today, look at the many different brands and variety of alcohol products available. The same could happen with cannabis varieties. I do believe there should be limits to scale. This is understandably the hardest part to put together. We are all afraid of U.S. Tobacco or R.J. Reynolds dominating the market. I am not sure a provision regulating market share would hold-up in the courts, but we must try.   ed

On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:14 AM, Glenn wrote:

Don't kid yourself... These folks don't have all their eggs in one basket. (I'm just full of cliches today...) They are in the business of supplying methamphetamine, cocaine, and other drugs (ecstasy, steroids) to the American and Canadian people, and they are also in the business of bringing weapons back across the borders to Mexico and points south. The thing about the current pot business that makes it different, and so lucrative, is that most of it is grown within our borders these days.

The list of those who don't necessarily want pot legalized include:
Law enforcement agencies
DAs and all prosecuting attorneys
Criminal defense attorneys
Agencies that fund public defenders
Congress
State legislatures
Most christian church congregations
Organized crime affiliates
Young toughs - Gang bangers
Many slightly capitalist hippie types who have a few outdoor plants that manage to mature every year, bringing in an extra few grand each year... Especially now.
Pharmaceutical companies and all those who own their stock, or run the businesses
The USCG
The CIA
The governments of: Cuba, Haiti, Dominicana, Panama, Nicaragua, Guatemala... The USA... For different reasons.
The list goes on and on.

Therein lies a whole lot of power. Lobbying power. Legislative power. Firepower. We still have a long row to hoe; and we might not have seen the worst of it yet. Then again, I just might be paranoid?

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: Jillian Galloway <jway86@yahoo. com>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 8:33:50 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

The cartels may want to retaliate but the problem for them is that bombing the coffeeshops and gunning down the proprietors won't generate them any income. Every hit costs money so if they're not actively generating money in return they'll quickly have to be abandoned. That's probably why they don't target our taverns and bars today in order to force themselves into the illegal alcohol business.

And as legalization will eliminate two-thirds of their incomes they're going to have major money problems, so spending their scarce resources going after the burgeoning legal marijuana outlets will be quickly seen as an effort in futility.





No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.73/2514 - Release Date: 11/19/09 19:42:00

#54992

From: Glenn <gameochance@...>
Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:06 pm
Subject: They'll have bragging rights the rest of their lives!

gameochance

Offline

FAIL!

-g-

Pot Farm Found Behind Police Station

Marijuana growing site 25 feet from LAPD station.

Updated: Wednesday, 18 Nov 2009, 11:00 PM PST
Published : Wednesday, 18 Nov 2009, 4:26 PM PST

Posted by: Scott Coppersmith, Tony Spearman

Canoga Park - Los Angeles police today busted a sophisticated marijuana farm inside an industrial building 25 feet from the back door of the Topanga Community Police Station.

About a week ago, officers smelled marijuana coming from the building at 8411 Canoga Ave., just a few feet from the station at 21501 Schoenborn St., said Officer Karen Rayner of the LAPD's Media Relations Section.

They notified the narcotics unit which started an investigation.

"They noticed that traffic in and out of the building was very minimal. The ventilation had also been upgraded. The utility bills were disproportionately higher. The rooms in the building were filled with hydroponics equipment," Rayner said.

Rayner said the farmers had also "gone to great lengths to filter the air coming out of every hole that might leak to the outside." She said that all the places where the smell might have come had been plugged with liquid caulking stuff.

"But it was not enough," Rayner said. "Their luck ran out."

Three suspects were still being booked so their names could not be released, Rayner said. The amount of marijuana in the building had not yet been tabulated.

A warrant was served in the building about 3 p.m. Detectives estimated the operation had been going on for about eight months, Rayner said.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (2)

#54991

From: Glenn <gameochance@...>
Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:19 pm
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

gameochance

Offline

Government is a necessary evil. The services offered by a government must be paid for. Local taxes, such as sales taxes, are used locally; and the taxes on marijuana wouold fall into this category. Any unreasonable or oppressive taxes would be overridden by the already in place "black market".

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: James Karl <bong_jamesbong2001@...>
To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, November 19, 2009 8:31:55 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

If one believes that the govt is entitled to a cut out of every transaction (taxes), then this makes sense.
But if one believes that cannabis is already a de facto mainstream commodity which the govt is already getting a very heavy cut out of via repression (fines, etc.), then this makes no sense at all. I for one ain't paying for repression.

End the oppression of cannabis and its consumers. Self defense is always correct, and it is never illegal. b_jb2001

--- On Wed, 11/18/09, ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@...> wrote:

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@...>
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls
To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 7:12 PM

Amen!

On Nov 18, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Glenn wrote:

it seems to me that cannabis can never become a mainstream commodity until it is taxed and controlled like other commodities.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby. org>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 6:51:43 PM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

Hi Steve;; Thanks for being open to the argument. To answer your question about paying $100 fine for possession. As I stated in an earlier post, decrim is a box canyon where there is no way out. I used Oregon as an example, but a better one is Holland that only has a decrim with not legitimizing the industry only the retail sale. There would still a black market society. I want to have my say in the decisions of this land with-out being out-side the law. I want to be a proud American, but can't until this wrong is corrected. No decrim. Legalize and tax. Re-legalize Cannabis. Now is the time to strike, the iron is hot.

Again, I want to thank Steve for being open to the argument... And, for keeping the discussion civil. ed

Do you honestly feel it would be harder to legalize than decrim? And, why do you feel that way? I guess that is all I have to say is, You have listened to the arguments made by fellow CPOP compatriots, how can we deny the relevance. ed

On Nov 18, 2009, at 12:40 PM, Steve Elliott wrote:

I’ve enjoyed this thought-provoking discussion, and am encouraged by it.

I am also Seattle-ish, and also interested.

I’m one of those people who supports both legalization, and until that happens, will be happy about marijuana being decriminalized on the way to getting legal. (How is paying only a $100 fine for 40 grams NOT better than the way it is now, for recreational users?)

The situation as it stands now is clearly untenable, both for the general public, for marijuana consumers, and for medical marijuana patients (who are still having to deal with hostile law enforcement in places like Kitsap County here on the Sound, and through much of Eastern Washington).

--

“Shared pain is lessened; shared joy is increased; thus do we refute entropy.”

~ Spider Robinson

From: Glenn <gameochance@ yahoo.com>
Reply-To: "cp3@yahoogroups. com" <cp3@yahoogroups. com>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:32:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "cp3@yahoogroups. com" <cp3@yahoogroups. com>
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls



I am in the Seattle area, and I am interested.

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby. org>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 10:12:23 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

Any disagreement with my position on legal vs. decrim from those in Washington State? I will be back soon with the date, time, and place for a gathering to explore the potential of a legalize petition. Anyone with ideas, please share. This is as grass-roots as one can get.
Tax and Regulate vs. Keep Marijuana Illegal and Tax Free. I think we can win this fight.

I'll be up-front. I want to be a licensed cannabis provider, with my only costumer being the State of Washington. Let the State license growers, coffee shops, dispensaries, warehouse, and retail through the state liquor stores. Marijuana will be handled the same way in Washington as alcohol.

This is an opportunity to develop a legal cottage industry. Walk into a liquor store today, look at the many different brands and variety of alcohol products available. The same could happen with cannabis varieties. I do believe there should be limits to scale. This is understandably the hardest part to put together. We are all afraid of U.S. Tobacco or R.J. Reynolds dominating the market. I am not sure a provision regulating market share would hold-up in the courts, but we must try.   ed

On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:14 AM, Glenn wrote:

Don't kid yourself... These folks don't have all their eggs in one basket. (I'm just full of cliches today...) They are in the business of supplying methamphetamine, cocaine, and other drugs (ecstasy, steroids) to the American and Canadian people, and they are also in the business of bringing weapons back across the borders to Mexico and points south. The thing about the current pot business that makes it different, and so lucrative, is that most of it is grown within our borders these days.

The list of those who don't necessarily want pot legalized include:
Law enforcement agencies
DAs and all prosecuting attorneys
Criminal defense attorneys
Agencies that fund public defenders
Congress
State legislatures
Most christian church congregations
Organized crime affiliates
Young toughs - Gang bangers
Many slightly capitalist hippie types who have a few outdoor plants that manage to mature every year, bringing in an extra few grand each year... Especially now.
Pharmaceutical companies and all those who own their stock, or run the businesses
The USCG
The CIA
The governments of: Cuba, Haiti, Dominicana, Panama, Nicaragua, Guatemala... The USA... For different reasons.
The list goes on and on.

Therein lies a whole lot of power. Lobbying power. Legislative power. Firepower. We still have a long row to hoe; and we might not have seen the worst of it yet. Then again, I just might be paranoid?

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: Jillian Galloway <jway86@yahoo. com>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 8:33:50 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

The cartels may want to retaliate but the problem for them is that bombing the coffeeshops and gunning down the proprietors won't generate them any income. Every hit costs money so if they're not actively generating money in return they'll quickly have to be abandoned. That's probably why they don't target our taverns and bars today in order to force themselves into the illegal alcohol business.

And as legalization will eliminate two-thirds of their incomes they're going to have major money problems, so spending their scarce resources going after the burgeoning legal marijuana outlets will be quickly seen as an effort in futility.

#54990

From: Jillian Galloway <jway86@...>
Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:04 pm
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

jway86

Offline

Definitely. Like home brew, consumption for personal use must be legal and untaxed.

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@...>
To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, November 19, 2009 11:55:18 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

Hi James; Like booze, you can make all you want for your own consumption. The catch is you can't sell it with-out the license to grow. It's the "give unto Caesar" thingy.

On Nov 19, 2009, at 8:31 AM, James Karl wrote:

If one believes that the govt is entitled to a cut out of every transaction (taxes), then this makes sense.
But if one believes that cannabis is already a de facto mainstream commodity which the govt is already getting a very heavy cut out of via repression (fines, etc.), then this makes no sense at all. I for one ain't paying for repression.

End the oppression of cannabis and its consumers. Self defense is always correct, and it is never illegal. b_jb2001

--- On Wed, 11/18/09, ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby. org> wrote:

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby. org>
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 7:12 PM

Amen!

On Nov 18, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Glenn wrote:

it seems to me that cannabis can never become a mainstream commodity until it is taxed and controlled like other commodities.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby. org>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 6:51:43 PM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

Hi Steve;; Thanks for being open to the argument. To answer your question about paying $100 fine for possession. As I stated in an earlier post, decrim is a box canyon where there is no way out. I used Oregon as an example, but a better one is Holland that only has a decrim with not legitimizing the industry only the retail sale. There would still a black market society. I want to have my say in the decisions of this land with-out being out-side the law. I want to be a proud American, but can't until this wrong is corrected. No decrim. Legalize and tax. Re-legalize Cannabis. Now is the time to strike, the iron is hot.

Again, I want to thank Steve for being open to the argument... And, for keeping the discussion civil. ed

Do you honestly feel it would be harder to legalize than decrim? And, why do you feel that way? I guess that is all I have to say is, You have listened to the arguments made by fellow CPOP compatriots, how can we deny the relevance. ed

On Nov 18, 2009, at 12:40 PM, Steve Elliott wrote:

I’ve enjoyed this thought-provoking discussion, and am encouraged by it.

I am also Seattle-ish, and also interested.

I’m one of those people who supports both legalization, and until that happens, will be happy about marijuana being decriminalized on the way to getting legal. (How is paying only a $100 fine for 40 grams NOT better than the way it is now, for recreational users?)

The situation as it stands now is clearly untenable, both for the general public, for marijuana consumers, and for medical marijuana patients (who are still having to deal with hostile law enforcement in places like Kitsap County here on the Sound, and through much of Eastern Washington).

--

“Shared pain is lessened; shared joy is increased; thus do we refute entropy.”

~ Spider Robinson

From: Glenn <gameochance@ yahoo.com>
Reply-To: "cp3@yahoogroups. com" <cp3@yahoogroups. com>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:32:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "cp3@yahoogroups. com" <cp3@yahoogroups. com>
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls



I am in the Seattle area, and I am interested.

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby. org>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 10:12:23 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

Any disagreement with my position on legal vs. decrim from those in Washington State? I will be back soon with the date, time, and place for a gathering to explore the potential of a legalize petition. Anyone with ideas, please share. This is as grass-roots as one can get.
Tax and Regulate vs. Keep Marijuana Illegal and Tax Free. I think we can win this fight.

I'll be up-front. I want to be a licensed cannabis provider, with my only costumer being the State of Washington. Let the State license growers, coffee shops, dispensaries, warehouse, and retail through the state liquor stores. Marijuana will be handled the same way in Washington as alcohol.

This is an opportunity to develop a legal cottage industry. Walk into a liquor store today, look at the many different brands and variety of alcohol products available. The same could happen with cannabis varieties. I do believe there should be limits to scale. This is understandably the hardest part to put together. We are all afraid of U.S. Tobacco or R.J. Reynolds dominating the market. I am not sure a provision regulating market share would hold-up in the courts, but we must try.   ed

On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:14 AM, Glenn wrote:

Don't kid yourself... These folks don't have all their eggs in one basket. (I'm just full of cliches today...) They are in the business of supplying methamphetamine, cocaine, and other drugs (ecstasy, steroids) to the American and Canadian people, and they are also in the business of bringing weapons back across the borders to Mexico and points south. The thing about the current pot business that makes it different, and so lucrative, is that most of it is grown within our borders these days.

The list of those who don't necessarily want pot legalized include:
Law enforcement agencies
DAs and all prosecuting attorneys
Criminal defense attorneys
Agencies that fund public defenders
Congress
State legislatures
Most christian church congregations
Organized crime affiliates
Young toughs - Gang bangers
Many slightly capitalist hippie types who have a few outdoor plants that manage to mature every year, bringing in an extra few grand each year... Especially now.
Pharmaceutical companies and all those who own their stock, or run the businesses
The USCG
The CIA
The governments of: Cuba, Haiti, Dominicana, Panama, Nicaragua, Guatemala... The USA... For different reasons.
The list goes on and on.

Therein lies a whole lot of power. Lobbying power. Legislative power. Firepower. We still have a long row to hoe; and we might not have seen the worst of it yet. Then again, I just might be paranoid?

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: Jillian Galloway <jway86@yahoo. com>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 8:33:50 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

The cartels may want to retaliate but the problem for them is that bombing the coffeeshops and gunning down the proprietors won't generate them any income. Every hit costs money so if they're not actively generating money in return they'll quickly have to be abandoned. That's probably why they don't target our taverns and bars today in order to force themselves into the illegal alcohol business.

And as legalization will eliminate two-thirds of their incomes they're going to have major money problems, so spending their scarce resources going after the burgeoning legal marijuana outlets will be quickly seen as an effort in futility.

#54989

From: "ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org" <ed@...>
Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:55 pm
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

ed@...

Hi James; � �Like booze, you can make all you want for your own consumption. The catch is you can't sell it with-out the license to grow. It's the "give unto�Caesar" thingy.

On Nov 19, 2009, at 8:31 AM, James Karl wrote:

If one believes that the govt is entitled to a cut out of every transaction (taxes), then this makes sense.��
�But if one believes that cannabis is already a�de facto�mainstream commodity which the govt is already getting a very heavy cut out of via repression (fines, etc.), then this makes no sense at all.� I for one ain't paying for repression.

End the oppression of cannabis and its consumers.�Self defense is always correct, and�it is never illegal. �b_jb2001

--- On�Wed, 11/18/09, ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org�<ed@hemplobby.org>�wrote:

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby.org>
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls
To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 7:12 PM

�
Amen!

On Nov 18, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Glenn wrote:

it seems to me that cannabis can never become a mainstream commodity until it is taxed and controlled like other commodities.
�
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."�

- Aldous Huxley

From:�ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby. org>
To:�cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent:�Wed, November 18, 2009 6:51:43 PM
Subject:�Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

Hi Steve;; � Thanks for being open to the argument. To answer your question about paying $100 fine for�possession. As I stated in an earlier post, decrim is a box canyon where there is no way out. I used Oregon as an example, but a better one is Holland that only has a decrim with not legitimizing the industry only the retail sale. There would still a black market society. I want to have my say in the�decisions� of this land with-out being out-side the law. I want to be a proud American, but can't until this wrong is corrected. No decrim. Legalize and tax. Re-legalize Cannabis. Now is the time to strike, the iron is hot. � �

Again, I want to thank Steve for being open to the argument... � And, for keeping the discussion �civil. � � ed

Do you honestly feel it would be harder to legalize than decrim? And, why do you feel that way? I guess that is all I have to say is, You have listened to the arguments made by fellow CPOP�compatriots, how can we deny the�relevance. ed
�
On Nov 18, 2009, at 12:40 PM, Steve Elliott wrote:

I�ve enjoyed this thought-provoking discussion, and am encouraged by it.

I am also Seattle-ish, and also interested.

I�m one of those people who supports both legalization, and until that happens, will be happy about marijuana being decriminalized on the way to getting legal. (How is paying only a $100 fine for 40 grams NOT better than the way it is now, for recreational users?)

The situation as it stands now is clearly untenable, both for the general public, for marijuana consumers, and for medical marijuana patients (who are still having to deal with hostile law enforcement in places like Kitsap County here on the Sound, and through much of Eastern Washington).

--�

�Shared pain is lessened; shared joy is increased; thus do we refute entropy.�

~ Spider Robinson

From:�Glenn <gameochance@�yahoo.com>
Reply-To:�"cp3@yahoogroups. com" <cp3@yahoogroups. com>
Date:�Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:32:09 -0800 (PST)
To:�"cp3@yahoogroups. com" <cp3@yahoogroups. com>
Subject:�Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

�
�
�
��

I am in the Seattle area, and I am interested.

-g-
�
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."�

- Aldous Huxley

From:�ed Saukkooja�hemplobby.org�<ed@hemplobby. org>
To:�cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent:�Wed, November 18, 2009 10:12:23 AM
Subject:�Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

�

Any disagreement with my position on legal vs. decrim from those in Washington State? �I will be back soon with the date, time, and place for a gathering to explore the potential of a legalize petition. Anyone with ideas, please share. �This is as grass-roots as one can get.�
Tax and Regulate�vs. Keep Marijuana Illegal�and Tax Free.�I think we can win this fight.�

I'll be up-front. I want to be a licensed cannabis provider, with my only costumer being the State of Washington. �Let the State license growers, coffee shops, dispensaries, warehouse, and retail through the state liquor stores. Marijuana will be handled the same way in Washington as alcohol.�

This is an opportunity to develop a legal cottage industry. Walk into a liquor store today, look at the many different brands and variety of alcohol products available. The same could happen with cannabis varieties. I do believe there should be limits to scale. This is understandably the hardest part to put together. We are all afraid of U.S. Tobacco or R.J. Reynolds dominating the market. I am not sure a provision regulating market share would hold-up in the courts, but we must try. ��ed

On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:14 AM, Glenn wrote:

Don't kid yourself... These folks don't have all their eggs in one basket. (I'm just full of cliches today...) They are in the business of supplying methamphetamine, cocaine, and other drugs (ecstasy, steroids) to the American and Canadian people, and they are also in the business of bringing weapons back across the borders to Mexico and points south. The thing about the current pot business that makes it different, and so lucrative, is that most of it is grown within our borders these days.�

The list of those who don't necessarily want pot legalized include:
Law enforcement agencies
DAs and all prosecuting attorneys
Criminal defense attorneys
Agencies that fund public defenders
Congress
State legislatures
Most christian church congregations
Organized crime affiliates
Young toughs - Gang bangers
Many slightly capitalist hippie types who have a few outdoor plants that manage to mature every year, bringing in an extra few grand each year... Especially now.
Pharmaceutical companies and all those who own their stock, or run the businesses
The USCG
The CIA
The governments of: Cuba, Haiti, Dominicana, Panama, Nicaragua, Guatemala... The USA... For different reasons.
The list goes on and on.

Therein lies a whole lot of power. Lobbying power. Legislative power. Firepower. We still have a long row to hoe; and we might not have seen the worst of it yet. Then again, I just might be paranoid?

-g-

�
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."�

- Aldous Huxley

From:�Jillian Galloway <jway86@yahoo. com>
To:�cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent:�Wed, November 18, 2009 8:33:50 AM
Subject:�Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

The cartels may want to retaliate but the problem for them is that bombing the coffeeshops and gunning down the proprietors won't generate them any income. Every hit costs money so if they're not actively generating money in return they'll quickly have to be abandoned. That's probably why they don't target our taverns and bars today in order to force themselves into the illegal alcohol business.

And as legalization will eliminate two-thirds of their incomes they're going to have major money problems, so spending their scarce resources going after the burgeoning legal marijuana outlets will be quickly seen as an effort in futility.

��

�
�
��

#54988

From: James Karl <bong_jamesbong2001@...>
Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:31 pm
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

bong_jamesbo...

Offline

End the oppression of cannabis and its consumers. Self defense is always correct, and it is never illegal. b_jb2001

--- On Wed, 11/18/09, ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@...> wrote:

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@...>
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls
To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 7:12 PM

Amen!

On Nov 18, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Glenn wrote:

it seems to me that cannabis can never become a mainstream commodity until it is taxed and controlled like other commodities.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby. org>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 6:51:43 PM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

Hi Steve;; Thanks for being open to the argument. To answer your question about paying $100 fine for possession. As I stated in an earlier post, decrim is a box canyon where there is no way out. I used Oregon as an example, but a better one is Holland that only has a decrim with not legitimizing the industry only the retail sale. There would still a black market society. I want to have my say in the decisions of this land with-out being out-side the law. I want to be a proud American, but can't until this wrong is corrected. No decrim. Legalize and tax. Re-legalize Cannabis. Now is the time to strike, the iron is hot.

Again, I want to thank Steve for being open to the argument... And, for keeping the discussion civil. ed

Do you honestly feel it would be harder to legalize than decrim? And, why do you feel that way? I guess that is all I have to say is, You have listened to the arguments made by fellow CPOP compatriots, how can we deny the relevance. ed

On Nov 18, 2009, at 12:40 PM, Steve Elliott wrote:

I’ve enjoyed this thought-provoking discussion, and am encouraged by it.

I am also Seattle-ish, and also interested.

I’m one of those people who supports both legalization, and until that happens, will be happy about marijuana being decriminalized on the way to getting legal. (How is paying only a $100 fine for 40 grams NOT better than the way it is now, for recreational users?)

The situation as it stands now is clearly untenable, both for the general public, for marijuana consumers, and for medical marijuana patients (who are still having to deal with hostile law enforcement in places like Kitsap County here on the Sound, and through much of Eastern Washington).

--

“Shared pain is lessened; shared joy is increased; thus do we refute entropy.”

~ Spider Robinson

From: Glenn <gameochance@ yahoo.com>
Reply-To: "cp3@yahoogroups. com" <cp3@yahoogroups. com>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:32:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "cp3@yahoogroups. com" <cp3@yahoogroups. com>
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls



I am in the Seattle area, and I am interested.

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby. org>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 10:12:23 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

Any disagreement with my position on legal vs. decrim from those in Washington State? I will be back soon with the date, time, and place for a gathering to explore the potential of a legalize petition. Anyone with ideas, please share. This is as grass-roots as one can get.
Tax and Regulate vs. Keep Marijuana Illegal and Tax Free. I think we can win this fight.

I'll be up-front. I want to be a licensed cannabis provider, with my only costumer being the State of Washington. Let the State license growers, coffee shops, dispensaries, warehouse, and retail through the state liquor stores. Marijuana will be handled the same way in Washington as alcohol.

This is an opportunity to develop a legal cottage industry. Walk into a liquor store today, look at the many different brands and variety of alcohol products available. The same could happen with cannabis varieties. I do believe there should be limits to scale. This is understandably the hardest part to put together. We are all afraid of U.S. Tobacco or R.J. Reynolds dominating the market. I am not sure a provision regulating market share would hold-up in the courts, but we must try.   ed

On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:14 AM, Glenn wrote:

Don't kid yourself... These folks don't have all their eggs in one basket. (I'm just full of cliches today...) They are in the business of supplying methamphetamine, cocaine, and other drugs (ecstasy, steroids) to the American and Canadian people, and they are also in the business of bringing weapons back across the borders to Mexico and points south. The thing about the current pot business that makes it different, and so lucrative, is that most of it is grown within our borders these days.

The list of those who don't necessarily want pot legalized include:
Law enforcement agencies
DAs and all prosecuting attorneys
Criminal defense attorneys
Agencies that fund public defenders
Congress
State legislatures
Most christian church congregations
Organized crime affiliates
Young toughs - Gang bangers
Many slightly capitalist hippie types who have a few outdoor plants that manage to mature every year, bringing in an extra few grand each year... Especially now.
Pharmaceutical companies and all those who own their stock, or run the businesses
The USCG
The CIA
The governments of: Cuba, Haiti, Dominicana, Panama, Nicaragua, Guatemala... The USA... For different reasons.
The list goes on and on.

Therein lies a whole lot of power. Lobbying power. Legislative power. Firepower. We still have a long row to hoe; and we might not have seen the worst of it yet. Then again, I just might be paranoid?

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: Jillian Galloway <jway86@yahoo. com>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 8:33:50 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

The cartels may want to retaliate but the problem for them is that bombing the coffeeshops and gunning down the proprietors won't generate them any income. Every hit costs money so if they're not actively generating money in return they'll quickly have to be abandoned. That's probably why they don't target our taverns and bars today in order to force themselves into the illegal alcohol business.

And as legalization will eliminate two-thirds of their incomes they're going to have major money problems, so spending their scarce resources going after the burgeoning legal marijuana outlets will be quickly seen as an effort in futility.

#54987

From: "ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org" <ed@...>
Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:12 am
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

ed@...

Amen!

On Nov 18, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Glenn wrote:

it seems to me that cannabis can never become a mainstream commodity until it is taxed and controlled like other commodities.
�
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."�

- Aldous Huxley

From:�ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby.org>
To:�cp3@yahoogroups.com
Sent:�Wed, November 18, 2009 6:51:43 PM
Subject:�Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

Hi Steve;; � Thanks for being open to the argument. To answer your question about paying $100 fine for�possession. As I stated in an earlier post, decrim is a box canyon where there is no way out. I used Oregon as an example, but a better one is Holland that only has a decrim with not legitimizing the industry only the retail sale. There would still a black market society. I want to have my say in the�decisions�of this land with-out being out-side the law. I want to be a proud American, but can't until this wrong is corrected. No decrim. Legalize and tax. Re-legalize Cannabis. Now is the time to strike, the iron is hot. � �

Again, I want to thank Steve for being open to the argument... � And, for keeping the discussion �civil. � � ed

Do you honestly feel it would be harder to legalize than decrim? And, why do you feel that way? I guess that is all I have to say is, You have listened to the arguments made by fellow CPOP�compatriots, how can we deny the�relevance. ed
�
On Nov 18, 2009, at 12:40 PM, Steve Elliott wrote:

I�ve enjoyed this thought-provoking discussion, and am encouraged by it.

I am also Seattle-ish, and also interested.

I�m one of those people who supports both legalization, and until that happens, will be happy about marijuana being decriminalized on the way to getting legal. (How is paying only a $100 fine for 40 grams NOT better than the way it is now, for recreational users?)

The situation as it stands now is clearly untenable, both for the general public, for marijuana consumers, and for medical marijuana patients (who are still having to deal with hostile law enforcement in places like Kitsap County here on the Sound, and through much of Eastern Washington).

--�

�Shared pain is lessened; shared joy is increased; thus do we refute entropy.�

~ Spider Robinson

From:�Glenn <gameochance@�yahoo.com>
Reply-To:�"cp3@yahoogroups. com" <cp3@yahoogroups. com>
Date:�Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:32:09 -0800 (PST)
To:�"cp3@yahoogroups. com" <cp3@yahoogroups. com>
Subject:�Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

�
�
�
��

I am in the Seattle area, and I am interested.

-g-
�
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."�

- Aldous Huxley

From:�ed Saukkooja�hemplobby.org�<ed@hemplobby. org>
To:�cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent:�Wed, November 18, 2009 10:12:23 AM
Subject:�Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

�

Any disagreement with my position on legal vs. decrim from those in Washington State? �I will be back soon with the date, time, and place for a gathering to explore the potential of a legalize petition. Anyone with ideas, please share. �This is as grass-roots as one can get.�
Tax and Regulate�vs. Keep Marijuana Illegal�and Tax Free.�I think we can win this fight.�

I'll be up-front. I want to be a licensed cannabis provider, with my only costumer being the State of Washington. �Let the State license growers, coffee shops, dispensaries, warehouse, and retail through the state liquor stores. Marijuana will be handled the same way in Washington as alcohol.�

This is an opportunity to develop a legal cottage industry. Walk into a liquor store today, look at the many different brands and variety of alcohol products available. The same could happen with cannabis varieties. I do believe there should be limits to scale. This is understandably the hardest part to put together. We are all afraid of U.S. Tobacco or R.J. Reynolds dominating the market. I am not sure a provision regulating market share would hold-up in the courts, but we must try. ��ed

On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:14 AM, Glenn wrote:

Don't kid yourself... These folks don't have all their eggs in one basket. (I'm just full of cliches today...) They are in the business of supplying methamphetamine, cocaine, and other drugs (ecstasy, steroids) to the American and Canadian people, and they are also in the business of bringing weapons back across the borders to Mexico and points south. The thing about the current pot business that makes it different, and so lucrative, is that most of it is grown within our borders these days.�

The list of those who don't necessarily want pot legalized include:
Law enforcement agencies
DAs and all prosecuting attorneys
Criminal defense attorneys
Agencies that fund public defenders
Congress
State legislatures
Most christian church congregations
Organized crime affiliates
Young toughs - Gang bangers
Many slightly capitalist hippie types who have a few outdoor plants that manage to mature every year, bringing in an extra few grand each year... Especially now.
Pharmaceutical companies and all those who own their stock, or run the businesses
The USCG
The CIA
The governments of: Cuba, Haiti, Dominicana, Panama, Nicaragua, Guatemala... The USA... For different reasons.
The list goes on and on.

Therein lies a whole lot of power. Lobbying power. Legislative power. Firepower. We still have a long row to hoe; and we might not have seen the worst of it yet. Then again, I just might be paranoid?

-g-

�
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."�

- Aldous Huxley

From:�Jillian Galloway <jway86@yahoo. com>
To:�cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent:�Wed, November 18, 2009 8:33:50 AM
Subject:�Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

The cartels may want to retaliate but the problem for them is that bombing the coffeeshops and gunning down the proprietors won't generate them any income. Every hit costs money so if they're not actively generating money in return they'll quickly have to be abandoned. That's probably why they don't target our taverns and bars today in order to force themselves into the illegal alcohol business.

And as legalization will eliminate two-thirds of their incomes they're going to have major money problems, so spending their scarce resources going after the burgeoning legal marijuana outlets will be quickly seen as an effort in futility.

��

�
�
��

#54986

From: Glenn <gameochance@...>
Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:05 am
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

gameochance

Offline

it seems to me that cannabis can never become a mainstream commodity until it is taxed and controlled like other commodities.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@...>
To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 6:51:43 PM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

Hi Steve;; Thanks for being open to the argument. To answer your question about paying $100 fine for possession. As I stated in an earlier post, decrim is a box canyon where there is no way out. I used Oregon as an example, but a better one is Holland that only has a decrim with not legitimizing the industry only the retail sale. There would still a black market society. I want to have my say in the decisions of this land with-out being out-side the law. I want to be a proud American, but can't until this wrong is corrected. No decrim. Legalize and tax. Re-legalize Cannabis. Now is the time to strike, the iron is hot.

Again, I want to thank Steve for being open to the argument... And, for keeping the discussion civil. ed

Do you honestly feel it would be harder to legalize than decrim? And, why do you feel that way? I guess that is all I have to say is, You have listened to the arguments made by fellow CPOP compatriots, how can we deny the relevance. ed

On Nov 18, 2009, at 12:40 PM, Steve Elliott wrote:

I’ve enjoyed this thought-provoking discussion, and am encouraged by it.

I am also Seattle-ish, and also interested.

I’m one of those people who supports both legalization, and until that happens, will be happy about marijuana being decriminalized on the way to getting legal. (How is paying only a $100 fine for 40 grams NOT better than the way it is now, for recreational users?)

The situation as it stands now is clearly untenable, both for the general public, for marijuana consumers, and for medical marijuana patients (who are still having to deal with hostile law enforcement in places like Kitsap County here on the Sound, and through much of Eastern Washington).

--

“Shared pain is lessened; shared joy is increased; thus do we refute entropy.”

~ Spider Robinson

From: Glenn <gameochance@ yahoo.com>
Reply-To: "cp3@yahoogroups. com" <cp3@yahoogroups. com>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:32:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "cp3@yahoogroups. com" <cp3@yahoogroups. com>
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls



I am in the Seattle area, and I am interested.

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby. org>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 10:12:23 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

Any disagreement with my position on legal vs. decrim from those in Washington State? I will be back soon with the date, time, and place for a gathering to explore the potential of a legalize petition. Anyone with ideas, please share. This is as grass-roots as one can get.
Tax and Regulate vs. Keep Marijuana Illegal and Tax Free. I think we can win this fight.

I'll be up-front. I want to be a licensed cannabis provider, with my only costumer being the State of Washington. Let the State license growers, coffee shops, dispensaries, warehouse, and retail through the state liquor stores. Marijuana will be handled the same way in Washington as alcohol.

This is an opportunity to develop a legal cottage industry. Walk into a liquor store today, look at the many different brands and variety of alcohol products available. The same could happen with cannabis varieties. I do believe there should be limits to scale. This is understandably the hardest part to put together. We are all afraid of U.S. Tobacco or R.J. Reynolds dominating the market. I am not sure a provision regulating market share would hold-up in the courts, but we must try.   ed

On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:14 AM, Glenn wrote:

Don't kid yourself... These folks don't have all their eggs in one basket. (I'm just full of cliches today...) They are in the business of supplying methamphetamine, cocaine, and other drugs (ecstasy, steroids) to the American and Canadian people, and they are also in the business of bringing weapons back across the borders to Mexico and points south. The thing about the current pot business that makes it different, and so lucrative, is that most of it is grown within our borders these days.

The list of those who don't necessarily want pot legalized include:
Law enforcement agencies
DAs and all prosecuting attorneys
Criminal defense attorneys
Agencies that fund public defenders
Congress
State legislatures
Most christian church congregations
Organized crime affiliates
Young toughs - Gang bangers
Many slightly capitalist hippie types who have a few outdoor plants that manage to mature every year, bringing in an extra few grand each year... Especially now.
Pharmaceutical companies and all those who own their stock, or run the businesses
The USCG
The CIA
The governments of: Cuba, Haiti, Dominicana, Panama, Nicaragua, Guatemala... The USA... For different reasons.
The list goes on and on.

Therein lies a whole lot of power. Lobbying power. Legislative power. Firepower. We still have a long row to hoe; and we might not have seen the worst of it yet. Then again, I just might be paranoid?

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: Jillian Galloway <jway86@yahoo. com>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 8:33:50 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

The cartels may want to retaliate but the problem for them is that bombing the coffeeshops and gunning down the proprietors won't generate them any income. Every hit costs money so if they're not actively generating money in return they'll quickly have to be abandoned. That's probably why they don't target our taverns and bars today in order to force themselves into the illegal alcohol business.

And as legalization will eliminate two-thirds of their incomes they're going to have major money problems, so spending their scarce resources going after the burgeoning legal marijuana outlets will be quickly seen as an effort in futility.

#54985

From: "ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org" <ed@...>
Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:51 am
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

ed@...

Hi Steve;; � Thanks for being open to the argument. To answer your question about paying $100 fine for�possession. As I stated in an earlier post, decrim is a box canyon where there is no way out. I used Oregon as an example, but a better one is Holland that only has a decrim with not legitimizing the industry only the retail sale. There would still a black market society. I want to have my say in the�decisions�of this land with-out being out-side the law. I want to be a proud American, but can't until this wrong is corrected. No decrim. Legalize and tax. Re-legalize Cannabis. Now is the time to strike, the iron is hot. � �

Again, I want to thank Steve for being open to the argument... � And, for keeping the discussion �civil. � � ed

�

On Nov 18, 2009, at 12:40 PM, Steve Elliott wrote:

I�ve enjoyed this thought-provoking discussion, and am encouraged by it.

I am also Seattle-ish, and also interested.

I�m one of those people who supports both legalization, and until that happens, will be happy about marijuana being decriminalized on the way to getting legal. (How is paying only a $100 fine for 40 grams NOT better than the way it is now, for recreational users?)

The situation as it stands now is clearly untenable, both for the general public, for marijuana consumers, and for medical marijuana patients (who are still having to deal with hostile law enforcement in places like Kitsap County here on the Sound, and through much of Eastern Washington).

--�

�Shared pain is lessened; shared joy is increased; thus do we refute entropy.�

~ Spider Robinson

From:�Glenn <gameochance@yahoo.com>
Reply-To:�"cp3@yahoogroups.com" <cp3@yahoogroups.com>
Date:�Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:32:09 -0800 (PST)
To:�"cp3@yahoogroups.com" <cp3@yahoogroups.com>
Subject:�Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

�
�
�
��

I am in the Seattle area, and I am interested.

-g-
�
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."�

- Aldous Huxley

From:�ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby.org>
To:�cp3@yahoogroups.com
Sent:�Wed, November 18, 2009 10:12:23 AM
Subject:�Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

�

Any disagreement with my position on legal vs. decrim from those in Washington State? �I will be back soon with the date, time, and place for a gathering to explore the potential of a legalize petition. Anyone with ideas, please share. �This is as grass-roots as one can get.�
Tax and Regulate�vs. Keep Marijuana Illegal�and Tax Free.�I think we can win this fight.�

I'll be up-front. I want to be a licensed cannabis provider, with my only costumer being the State of Washington. �Let the State license growers, coffee shops, dispensaries, warehouse, and retail through the state liquor stores. Marijuana will be handled the same way in Washington as alcohol.�

This is an opportunity to develop a legal cottage industry. Walk into a liquor store today, look at the many different brands and variety of alcohol products available. The same could happen with cannabis varieties. I do believe there should be limits to scale. This is understandably the hardest part to put together. We are all afraid of U.S. Tobacco or R.J. Reynolds dominating the market. I am not sure a provision regulating market share would hold-up in the courts, but we must try. ��ed

On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:14 AM, Glenn wrote:

Don't kid yourself... These folks don't have all their eggs in one basket. (I'm just full of cliches today...) They are in the business of supplying methamphetamine, cocaine, and other drugs (ecstasy, steroids) to the American and Canadian people, and they are also in the business of bringing weapons back across the borders to Mexico and points south. The thing about the current pot business that makes it different, and so lucrative, is that most of it is grown within our borders these days.�

The list of those who don't necessarily want pot legalized include:
Law enforcement agencies
DAs and all prosecuting attorneys
Criminal defense attorneys
Agencies that fund public defenders
Congress
State legislatures
Most christian church congregations
Organized crime affiliates
Young toughs - Gang bangers
Many slightly capitalist hippie types who have a few outdoor plants that manage to mature every year, bringing in an extra few grand each year... Especially now.
Pharmaceutical companies and all those who own their stock, or run the businesses
The USCG
The CIA
The governments of: Cuba, Haiti, Dominicana, Panama, Nicaragua, Guatemala... The USA... For different reasons.
The list goes on and on.

Therein lies a whole lot of power. Lobbying power. Legislative power. Firepower. We still have a long row to hoe; and we might not have seen the worst of it yet. Then again, I just might be paranoid?

-g-

�
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."�

- Aldous Huxley

From:�Jillian Galloway <jway86@yahoo. com>
To:�cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent:�Wed, November 18, 2009 8:33:50 AM
Subject:�Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

The cartels may want to retaliate but the problem for them is that bombing the coffeeshops and gunning down the proprietors won't generate them any income. Every hit costs money so if they're not actively generating money in return they'll quickly have to be abandoned. That's probably why they don't target our taverns and bars today in order to force themselves into the illegal alcohol business.

And as legalization will eliminate two-thirds of their incomes they're going to have major money problems, so spending their scarce resources going after the burgeoning legal marijuana outlets will be quickly seen as an effort in futility.

��

�
�
��

#54984

From: "Michael" <mwood@...>
Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

incaritatis

Offline

It is what I read and hear as well.

The truth is that keeping weed illegal is quite an economic matter. Think about it: for starters there is the entire industry of maintaining and policing a border. There's mega bucks involved in many contracts and agency budgets

Then there is the matter of entire towns that subsist from prisons built nearby ( most work there, then the stores etc in the towns depend on that money...); and since most foks are incarcereated for drug related offenses...for sure they dont want the prison population to decline. So we need to maintain the flow of incarcerated folk into the prison industry. Then there are the host of " pre employment screenings" that involve drug testing and sample processing industries. Marijuana is the root of a lot of money. Keeping it illegal in is the fat pockets interests- which is why the Mexican government hasnt yet changed its policy.

Michael

----- Original Message -----

From: patrick mc govern

To: cp3@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 3:32 PM

Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

I too have read that and believe it to be true.

It is not the man who has little, but the man who craves more, that is poor

--- On Wed, 11/18/09, Floyd <xray.01z@netzero.net> wrote:

From: Floyd <xray.01z@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls
To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 1:48 PM

As I understand it, and I'm no Mexio expert, a majority of the Mexican
Legislature has been for legalization for some time, but the Executive
(under presure of the US DEA) keeps throwing up road blocks. It's gotten
a little press here, but not enough.

On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:36:31 -0800, Glenn <gameochance@yahoo.com> wrote:

> If cannabis were legal in Mexico, it would look a lot different there,
> too.
>
>
> ________________________________
> "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."
>
>
> - Aldous Huxley
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: James Karl <bong_jamesbong2001@yahoo.com>
> To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 10:30:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls
>
>
>
> totally wrong. wiping out the economic competition will bring in a lot
> more money. Just look at Mexico today"
>
>
> End the oppression of cannabis and its consumers. Self defense is always
> correct, and it is never illegal. b_jb2001
>
> --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Jillian Galloway <jway86@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>> From: Jillian Galloway <jway86@yahoo.com>
>> Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls
>> To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 8:33 AM
>>
>>
<snip>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>>
>>
<snip>
>>
>> The cartels may want to retaliate but the problem for them is that
>> bombing the coffeeshops and gunning down the proprietors won't generate
>> them any income. Every hit costs money so if they're not actively
>> generating money in return they'll quickly have to be abandoned. That's
>> probably why they don't target our taverns and bars today in order to
>> force themselves into the illegal alcohol business.
>>
>> And as legalization will eliminate two-thirds of their incomes they're
>> going to have major money problems, so spending their scarce resources
>> going after the burgeoning legal marijuana outlets will be quickly seen
>> as an effort in futility.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> ________________________________
> From: Floyd <xray.01z@netzero. net>
>> To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
>> Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 11:07:22 AM
>> Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls
>>
>> >
>>
>>
<snip>
>>
>> In this era of massive corruption, tax and regulate will feed (and tame)
<snip>
>>
<snip>
>>
<snip>
>>
<snip>
>> http://greenfloyd. site90.com/ _roller.readerX. php
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
"Enjoy the ride..."
http://greenfloyd.site90.com/_roller.readerX.php

------------------------------------

Constitutional Patriots Opposing Prohibition

"America's drug war is so stupid that if you pay close attention
to just how stupid it is -- it'll drive you to use drugs."
-- Jim Hightower

Constitutional Patriots Opposing Prohibition-Join us!-Link Below
Http://www.cpop.org

Greenpanthers http://www.ph1landrews.com/tm/
The only no compromise pot organization ( Direct Action!)

Phil's NorthWest Forum http://ph1landrews.com
Freedom of Speach is found there.Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cp3/

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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

#54983

From: Jillian Galloway <jway86@...>
Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:40 pm
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

jway86

Offline

I guess I see things a bit different because I don't smoke marijuana. My concern is with the innocent people being tortured and murdered by the cartels, and the ONLY way to end their needless suffering is by eliminating the cartel's marijuana incomes. Stripping them of two-thirds of their overall incomes won't completely destroy them but it will take the bulk of their power away from them and it will remove their incentive to commit these murders.

Decrim won't help these people at all.

From: Steve Elliott <alapoet@...>
To: "cp3@yahoogroups.com" <cp3@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 3:40:53 PM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

I’ve enjoyed this thought-provoking discussion, and am encouraged by it.

I am also Seattle-ish, and also interested.

I’m one of those people who supports both legalization, and until that happens, will be happy about marijuana being decriminalized on the way to getting legal. (How is paying only a $100 fine for 40 grams NOT better than the way it is now, for recreational users?)

The situation as it stands now is clearly untenable, both for the general public, for marijuana consumers, and for medical marijuana patients (who are still having to deal with hostile law enforcement in places like Kitsap County here on the Sound, and through much of Eastern Washington).

--

“Shared pain is lessened; shared joy is increased; thus do we refute entropy.”

~ Spider Robinson

From: Glenn <gameochance@ yahoo.com>
Reply-To: "cp3@yahoogroups. com" <cp3@yahoogroups. com>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:32:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "cp3@yahoogroups. com" <cp3@yahoogroups. com>
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

I am in the Seattle area, and I am interested.

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby. org>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 10:12:23 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

Any disagreement with my position on legal vs. decrim from those in Washington State? I will be back soon with the date, time, and place for a gathering to explore the potential of a legalize petition. Anyone with ideas, please share. This is as grass-roots as one can get.
Tax and Regulate vs. Keep Marijuana Illegal and Tax Free. I think we can win this fight.

I'll be up-front. I want to be a licensed cannabis provider, with my only costumer being the State of Washington. Let the State license growers, coffee shops, dispensaries, warehouse, and retail through the state liquor stores. Marijuana will be handled the same way in Washington as alcohol.

This is an opportunity to develop a legal cottage industry. Walk into a liquor store today, look at the many different brands and variety of alcohol products available. The same could happen with cannabis varieties. I do believe there should be limits to scale. This is understandably the hardest part to put together. We are all afraid of U.S. Tobacco or R.J. Reynolds dominating the market. I am not sure a provision regulating market share would hold-up in the courts, but we must try. ed

On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:14 AM, Glenn wrote:

Don't kid yourself... These folks don't have all their eggs in one basket. (I'm just full of cliches today...) They are in the business of supplying methamphetamine, cocaine, and other drugs (ecstasy, steroids) to the American and Canadian people, and they are also in the business of bringing weapons back across the borders to Mexico and points south. The thing about the current pot business that makes it different, and so lucrative, is that most of it is grown within our borders these days.

The list of those who don't necessarily want pot legalized include:
Law enforcement agencies
DAs and all prosecuting attorneys
Criminal defense attorneys
Agencies that fund public defenders
Congress
State legislatures
Most christian church congregations
Organized crime affiliates
Young toughs - Gang bangers
Many slightly capitalist hippie types who have a few outdoor plants that manage to mature every year, bringing in an extra few grand each year... Especially now.
Pharmaceutical companies and all those who own their stock, or run the businesses
The USCG
The CIA
The governments of: Cuba, Haiti, Dominicana, Panama, Nicaragua, Guatemala... The USA... For different reasons.
The list goes on and on.

Therein lies a whole lot of power. Lobbying power. Legislative power. Firepower. We still have a long row to hoe; and we might not have seen the worst of it yet. Then again, I just might be paranoid?

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: Jillian Galloway <jway86@yahoo. com>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 8:33:50 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

The cartels may want to retaliate but the problem for them is that bombing the coffeeshops and gunning down the proprietors won't generate them any income. Every hit costs money so if they're not actively generating money in return they'll quickly have to be abandoned. That's probably why they don't target our taverns and bars today in order to force themselves into the illegal alcohol business.

And as legalization will eliminate two-thirds of their incomes they're going to have major money problems, so spending their scarce resources going after the burgeoning legal marijuana outlets will be quickly seen as an effort in futility.

#54982

From: patrick mc govern <mcgvrn_ptrck@...>
Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:32 pm
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

mcgvrn_ptrck

Offline

I too have read that and believe it to be true.

It is not the man who has little, but the man who craves more, that is poor

--- On Wed, 11/18/09, Floyd <xray.01z@...> wrote:

From: Floyd <xray.01z@...>
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls
To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 1:48 PM

As I understand it, and I'm no Mexio expert, a majority of the Mexican
Legislature has been for legalization for some time, but the Executive
(under presure of the US DEA) keeps throwing up road blocks. It's gotten
a little press here, but not enough.

On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:36:31 -0800, Glenn <gameochance@...> wrote:

> If cannabis were legal in Mexico, it would look a lot different there,
> too.
>
>
> ________________________________
> "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."
>
>
> - Aldous Huxley
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: James Karl <bong_jamesbong2001@...>
> To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 10:30:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls
>
>
>
> totally wrong. wiping out the economic competition will bring in a lot
> more money. Just look at Mexico today"
>
>
> End the oppression of cannabis and its consumers. Self defense is always
> correct, and it is never illegal. b_jb2001
>
> --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Jillian Galloway <jway86@...> wrote:
>
>
>> From: Jillian Galloway <jway86@...>
>> Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls
>> To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 8:33 AM
>>
>>
<snip>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>>
>>
<snip>
>>
>> The cartels may want to retaliate but the problem for them is that
>> bombing the coffeeshops and gunning down the proprietors won't generate
>> them any income. Every hit costs money so if they're not actively
>> generating money in return they'll quickly have to be abandoned. That's
>> probably why they don't target our taverns and bars today in order to
>> force themselves into the illegal alcohol business.
>>
>> And as legalization will eliminate two-thirds of their incomes they're
>> going to have major money problems, so spending their scarce resources
>> going after the burgeoning legal marijuana outlets will be quickly seen
>> as an effort in futility.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> ________________________________
> From: Floyd <xray.01z@netzero. net>
>> To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
>> Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 11:07:22 AM
>> Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls
>>
>> >
>>
>>
<snip>
>>
>> In this era of massive corruption, tax and regulate will feed (and tame)
<snip>
>>
<snip>
>>
<snip>
>>
<snip>
>> http://greenfloyd. site90.com/ _roller.readerX. php
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
"Enjoy the ride..."
http://greenfloyd.site90.com/_roller.readerX.php

------------------------------------

Constitutional Patriots Opposing Prohibition

"America's drug war is so stupid that if you pay close attention
to just how stupid it is -- it'll drive you to use drugs."
-- Jim Hightower

Constitutional Patriots Opposing Prohibition-Join us!-Link Below
Http://www.cpop.org

Greenpanthers http://www.ph1landrews.com/tm/
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#54981

From: Steve Elliott <alapoet@...>
Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:40 pm
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

alapoet7

Offline

From: Glenn <gameochance@...>
Reply-To: "cp3@yahoogroups.com" <cp3@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:32:09 -0800 (PST)
To: "cp3@yahoogroups.com" <cp3@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

I am in the Seattle area, and I am interested.

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@...>
To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 10:12:23 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

Any disagreement with my position on legal vs. decrim from those in Washington State? I will be back soon with the date, time, and place for a gathering to explore the potential of a legalize petition. Anyone with ideas, please share. This is as grass-roots as one can get.
Tax and Regulate vs. Keep Marijuana Illegal and Tax Free. I think we can win this fight.

I'll be up-front. I want to be a licensed cannabis provider, with my only costumer being the State of Washington. Let the State license growers, coffee shops, dispensaries, warehouse, and retail through the state liquor stores. Marijuana will be handled the same way in Washington as alcohol.

This is an opportunity to develop a legal cottage industry. Walk into a liquor store today, look at the many different brands and variety of alcohol products available. The same could happen with cannabis varieties. I do believe there should be limits to scale. This is understandably the hardest part to put together. We are all afraid of U.S. Tobacco or R.J. Reynolds dominating the market. I am not sure a provision regulating market share would hold-up in the courts, but we must try. ed

On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:14 AM, Glenn wrote:

Don't kid yourself... These folks don't have all their eggs in one basket. (I'm just full of cliches today...) They are in the business of supplying methamphetamine, cocaine, and other drugs (ecstasy, steroids) to the American and Canadian people, and they are also in the business of bringing weapons back across the borders to Mexico and points south. The thing about the current pot business that makes it different, and so lucrative, is that most of it is grown within our borders these days.

The list of those who don't necessarily want pot legalized include:
Law enforcement agencies
DAs and all prosecuting attorneys
Criminal defense attorneys
Agencies that fund public defenders
Congress
State legislatures
Most christian church congregations
Organized crime affiliates
Young toughs - Gang bangers
Many slightly capitalist hippie types who have a few outdoor plants that manage to mature every year, bringing in an extra few grand each year... Especially now.
Pharmaceutical companies and all those who own their stock, or run the businesses
The USCG
The CIA
The governments of: Cuba, Haiti, Dominicana, Panama, Nicaragua, Guatemala... The USA... For different reasons.
The list goes on and on.

Therein lies a whole lot of power. Lobbying power. Legislative power. Firepower. We still have a long row to hoe; and we might not have seen the worst of it yet. Then again, I just might be paranoid?

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: Jillian Galloway <jway86@yahoo. com>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 8:33:50 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

The cartels may want to retaliate but the problem for them is that bombing the coffeeshops and gunning down the proprietors won't generate them any income. Every hit costs money so if they're not actively generating money in return they'll quickly have to be abandoned. That's probably why they don't target our taverns and bars today in order to force themselves into the illegal alcohol business.

And as legalization will eliminate two-thirds of their incomes they're going to have major money problems, so spending their scarce resources going after the burgeoning legal marijuana outlets will be quickly seen as an effort in futility.

#54980

From: Floyd <xray.01z@...>
Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:48 pm
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

xray.01z@...

As I understand it, and I'm no Mexio expert, a majority of the Mexican
Legislature has been for legalization for some time, but the Executive
(under presure of the US DEA) keeps throwing up road blocks.  It's gotten
a little press here, but not enough.

On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:36:31 -0800, Glenn <gameochance@...> wrote:

> If cannabis were legal in Mexico, it would look a lot different there,
> too.
>
>
> ________________________________
> "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."
>
>
> - Aldous Huxley
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: James Karl <bong_jamesbong2001@...>
> To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 10:30:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls
>
>
>
> totally wrong.  wiping out the economic competition will bring in a lot
> more money.  Just look at Mexico today"
>
>
> End the oppression of cannabis and its consumers. Self defense is always
> correct, and it is never illegal.  b_jb2001
>
> --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Jillian Galloway <jway86@...> wrote:
>
>
>> From: Jillian Galloway <jway86@...>
>> Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls
>> To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 8:33 AM
>>
>>
<snip>
>>
>>
>>
>>  >
>>
>>
<snip>
>>
>> The cartels may want to retaliate but the problem for them is that
>> bombing the coffeeshops and gunning down the proprietors won't generate
>> them any income. Every hit costs money so if they're not actively
>> generating money in return they'll quickly have to be abandoned. That's
>> probably why they don't target our taverns and bars today in order to
>> force themselves into the illegal alcohol business.
>>
>> And as legalization will eliminate two-thirds of their incomes they're
>> going to have major money problems, so spending their scarce resources
>> going after the burgeoning legal marijuana outlets will be quickly seen
>> as an effort in futility.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> ________________________________
> From: Floyd <xray.01z@netzero. net>
>> To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
>> Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 11:07:22 AM
>> Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls
>>
>>  >
>>
>>
<snip>
>>
>> In this era of massive corruption, tax and regulate will feed (and tame)
<snip>
>>
<snip>
>>
<snip>
>>
<snip>
>> http://greenfloyd. site90.com/ _roller.readerX. php
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>



--
"Enjoy the ride..."
http://greenfloyd.site90.com/_roller.readerX.php

#54979

From: Philip Andrews <phil@...>
Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:22 pm
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

rhosheen

Offline

Same with me. Glenn and I should set up an import business. :-D

Glenn wrote:

I am in the Seattle area, and I am interested.

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby.org>
To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 10:12:23 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

Any disagreement with my position on legal vs. decrim from those in Washington State? I will be back soon with the date, time, and place for a gathering to explore the potential of a legalize petition. Anyone with ideas, please share. This is as grass-roots as one can get.

Tax and Regulate vs. Keep Marijuana Illegal and Tax Free. I think we can win this fight.

I'll be up-front. I want to be a licensed cannabis provider, with my only costumer being the State of Washington. Let the State license growers, coffee shops, dispensaries, warehouse, and retail through the state liquor stores. Marijuana will be handled the same way in Washington as alcohol.

This is an opportunity to develop a legal cottage industry. Walk into a liquor store today, look at the many different brands and variety of alcohol products available. The same could happen with cannabis varieties. I do believe there should be limits to scale. This is understandably the hardest part to put together. We are all afraid of U.S. Tobacco or R.J. Reynolds dominating the market. I am not sure a provision regulating market share would hold-up in the courts, but we must try. ed

On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:14 AM, Glenn wrote:

Don't kid yourself... These folks don't have all their eggs in one basket. (I'm just full of cliches today...) They are in the business of supplying methamphetamine, cocaine, and other drugs (ecstasy, steroids) to the American and Canadian people, and they are also in the business of bringing weapons back across the borders to Mexico and points south. The thing about the current pot business that makes it different, and so lucrative, is that most of it is grown within our borders these days.

The list of those who don't necessarily want pot legalized include:
Law enforcement agencies
DAs and all prosecuting attorneys
Criminal defense attorneys
Agencies that fund public defenders
Congress
State legislatures
Most christian church congregations
Organized crime affiliates
Young toughs - Gang bangers

Many slightly capitalist hippie types who have a few outdoor plants that manage to mature every year, bringing in an extra few grand each year... Especially now.
Pharmaceutical companies and all those who own their stock, or run the businesses
The USCG
The CIA
The governments of: Cuba, Haiti, Dominicana, Panama, Nicaragua, Guatemala... The USA... For different reasons.
The list goes on and on.

Therein lies a whole lot of power. Lobbying power. Legislative power. Firepower. We still have a long row to hoe; and we might not have seen the worst of it yet. Then again, I just might be paranoid?

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: Jillian Galloway <jway86@yahoo. com>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 8:33:50 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

The cartels may want to retaliate but the problem for them is that bombing the coffeeshops and gunning down the proprietors won't generate them any income. Every hit costs money so if they're not actively generating money in return they'll quickly have to be abandoned. That's probably why they don't target our taverns and bars today in order to force themselves into the illegal alcohol business.

And as legalization will eliminate two-thirds of their incomes they're going to have major money problems, so spending their scarce resources going after the burgeoning legal marijuana outlets will be quickly seen as an effort in futility.

#54978

From: Glenn <gameochance@...>
Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:36 pm
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

gameochance

Offline

If cannabis were legal in Mexico, it would look a lot different there, too.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: James Karl <bong_jamesbong2001@...>
To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 10:30:46 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

totally wrong. wiping out the economic competition will bring in a lot more money. Just look at Mexico today"

End the oppression of cannabis and its consumers. Self defense is always correct, and it is never illegal. b_jb2001

--- On Wed, 11/18/09, Jillian Galloway <jway86@...> wrote:

From: Jillian Galloway <jway86@...>
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls
To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 8:33 AM

The cartels may want to retaliate but the problem for them is that bombing the coffeeshops and gunning down the proprietors won't generate them any income. Every hit costs money so if they're not actively generating money in return they'll quickly have to be abandoned. That's probably why they don't target our taverns and bars today in order to force themselves into the illegal alcohol business.

And as legalization will eliminate two-thirds of their incomes they're going to have major money problems, so spending their scarce resources going after the burgeoning legal marijuana outlets will be quickly seen as an effort in futility.

From: Floyd <xray.01z@netzero. net>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 11:07:22 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

In this era of massive corruption, tax and regulate will feed (and tame)
the political beast so it won't bite the hand that feeds... I don't think
activists have much to fear from cartels or gangs; yet as legalization
gains steam look out for those double-dipping spooks, badges and black
robes. Oh yeah! Don't forget all those corporate fascists who suck from
the public funded anti-Drug teat...

On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:34:53 -0800, Glenn <gameochance@ yahoo.com> wrote:

> The decrim, and, to a certain extent, the medpot movements have been a
> foot in the door, and as it were, quite effective "Baby steps" toward
> our ultimate goal of legalization. I agree with you though, Ed,
> especially in the current political climate. It's time to regroup as a
> movement, reorganize toward legalization, and make this become reality.
> Yes, there are many states that don't have medpot yet, but the AMA has
> reversed its stance on the medical use of cannabis which will generate
> much testing, and therefore the medical cannabis movement has gone truly
> mainstream. Now, it is time to legalize.
>
> The thing about legalization that many people don't seem to realize is
> that some of the biggest opposition to legalization will come from those
> engaged in supplying pot to the masses. Not those growing in closets,
> but the Mexican cartels, and their (often anglo) workers in the USA
> growing on the National Forest lands in Cali, Oregon, Washington, Utah,
> Tennessee, Florida, Arkansas; you get the picture. Yes, there will still
> be markets for all the pot they're growing, but the sudden legality is
> going to compromise their position... They will go from being suppliers
> of an illegal and highly sought after commodity to being merely illegal
> farmers overnight, and their overseers stand to lose everything. These
> guys have guns, and are already in the killing business. Yes, there will
> be opposition to the legalization process from some very strange places,
> be aware. As legalization becomes more of a realistic possibility, our
> collective position as activists just
> might put us in danger, especially those of us who are more in the
> public eye.
>
> My FirstCuppaCoffee rant for the day.
>
> -g-
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."
>
>
> - Aldous Huxley
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby. org>
> To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 5:33:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [CPOP] Marijuana Decrim, Frank Chopp, and the Case of the
> Missing Balls
>
>
> Hell Steve, forget Chopp, I don't like decrim and will do everything I
> can to let all know just how ridiculous pushing a decrim measure is.
> Why push decrim when legal and taxed and regulated is not anymore
> difficult? It makes no sense. Why does this group from the Seattle area
> including JoAnne, Ben L, Sen. K.-Wells, and the ACLU of WA. push
> decrim? Tell me why? Decrim is a box canyon you will not get out of.
> Oregon has had decrim for over 30 years. The time is ripe to legalize
> cannabis. No more baby steps.
> I propose a State wide petition to legalize, tax, and regulate cannabis
> is Washington State, and will be having a gathering of minds in Olympia
> between Thanksgiving and Christmas. We will need about $3 million to
> pull this off, so bring your checkbooks. Let's put it on the ballot and
> let the folks decide. I will not trust the legislature to do the right
> thing.
> Using the model established by the Bar Association of King County
> several years ago that would have the liquor control board be the lead
> agency in setting guidelines for cannabis cultivation, purchasing,
> warehousing, and distribution of cannabis product in Washington State.
> Simple, effective, and a money maker for all. Ed
>
>
> On Nov 15, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Steve Elliott wrote:
>
> http://bit.ly/203zrg
>>
>>
>> SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 15, 2009
>>
>> Marijuana Decrim, Frank Chopp, and the Case of the Missing Balls
>>
>> <3341137601_ 2591659>
>> Frank Chopp doesn't want to blow his speakers. (Photo: www.leg.wa.gov)
>>
>> Ever know someone who had a really hot car, but they were afraid to
>> really drive it?
>>
>> That's how Washington's Speaker of the House Frank Chopp rolls.
>>
>> How about the guy who had the 300-watt stereo system, but would never
>> crank it up because "I don't want to blow the speakers"?
>>
>> That's how Frank Chopp gets down.
>>
>> And that's exactly how Chopp was getting down when a bill to
>> decriminalize marijuana possession died in the Washington Legislature
>> last spring.
>>
>> According to multiple, well-placed sources (both inside the Legislature
>> and those observing), Chopp, through a lack of political will and
>> leadership, is the legislator most responsible for the death of
>> marijuana decrim in the last session. A reliable inside source, in a
>> position to know, tells me Chopp doesn't want to force a
>> "controversial" marijuana decrim vote by the entire Legislature,
>> because he doesn't want to force fellow Democrats (in the majority) to
>> vote on pot any time before the 2010 elections.
>>
>> The dude has a commanding Democratic majority in the state legislature,
>> yet seems eerily unwilling to actually use that power to achieve
>> progressive goals. Is that due to the fact that he's practically a
>> sponsored candidate of the far-right Building Industries Association of
>> Washington (BIAW), which funded both of Dino Rossi's reactionary (and
>> unsuccessful) campaigns for Governor? Maybe. Chopp has worked with the
>> BIAW to oppose consumer protection legislation supported by his own
>> party.
>>
>> "This is democracy at its worst," State Senator Brian Weinstein
>> (D-Mercer Island) told The Stranger in a 2007 interview. "Here is one
>> guy who overruled 30 Democratic senators and the Democratic House
>> Judiciary Committee. There's no point in doing the fact finding,
>> holding eight hours of hearings, of doing the right thing, if a
>> dictator can just pull the rug out from under you."
>>
>> "Weinstein went as far as to say Chopp killed the bill because he was
>> sucking up to the BIAW," The Stranger's Josh Feit reported. According
>> to Weinstein, Chopp wanted the BIAW on his side come election time to
>> protect the Democratic majority. "And," Weinstein added derisively,
>> "not do anything with it." (Chopp claims the BIAW had nothing to do
>> with his decision.)
>>
>> <3341137601_ 2620499>
>> Democratic Rep. Brendan Williams (D-Olympia), who wore a defiant "No
>> BIAW" pin to a Democratic holiday fundraising event in 2008, said he’s
>> not running again because Chopp has neutered the Democratic agenda in
>> Olympia by cozying up with the BIAW. Williams has been a major victim
>> of Chopp’s alliance with the builders association: Two years in a row
>> Williams’s homeowner bill of rights was killed at the last minute by
>> Chopp. The BIAW was upset that homeowners would, my goodness, have the
>> basic right to sue for faulty construction.
>>
>> "Losing his majority" seems to be a deep and recurring fear for Chopp;
>> it seems not to have occurred to the man that the reason he enjoys a
>> big Democratic majority in the House is that maybe, just maybe, the
>> voters support the Democratic agenda. His continual trumpeting of the
>> "One Washington" theme sounds less like a yen for unity and more like a
>> call for capitulation to conservatives. This is probably why Dominic
>> Holden of Seattle alternative newspaper The Stranger has called Chopp a
>> "feckless sissy."
>>
>> The House Speaker has gone so far to appease the GOP that one prominent
>> Demoractic State Senator, asked if Washington Attorney General Rob
>> McKenna would be the Republican nominee for governor in 2012, replied,
>> “Who knows? The GOP could run Chopp.”
>>
>> Chopp's leadership style, or lack thereof, has been a growing source of
>> controversy within progressive Democrats for some time now. Over and
>> over, you see Chopp described as "the most powerful politician in the
>> state," but you'd never guess it from his unwillingness to go out on a
>> limb, to take a stand, to have a backbone.
>>
>> This is frustrating for progressive Democratic voters who (over?)assume
>> that having a liberal House Speaker like Chopp would result in more
>> progressive advances. Granted, Chopp has passed the estate tax,
>> collective bargaining for state employees, a housing trust fund, the
>> highest minimum wage in the country, opportunity grants for college
>> tuition, and other achievements.
>>
>> But edge a little farther out the progressive limb and it doesn't take
>> long to run into a laundry list of disappointments. Progressive
>> wish-list items like environmental protections on Maury Island,
>> payday-loan guidelines to protect low-income borrowers (which even
>> Georgia has), ratcheting down the more than 400 lucrative tax loopholes
>> handed out by the state to corporations. .. all unfulfilled promises,
>> all due to Chopp's failure, despite wide party and voter support, to
>> make it happen.
>>
>> Labor unions, disappointed by Chopp's (and Gov. Chris Gregoire's)
>> failure to bring the Workers Privacy Act (WPA) to a vote in the 2009
>> session, in an unprecedented move, declined to endorse any candidates
>> this year. (The WPA supports First Amendment privacy rights of
>> individual conscience, including opinions about politics, religion,
>> unionization, and charitable giving. The WPA would have made sure that
>> employees who resist any indoctrination of this kind by their employers
>> would not be punished, and was unanimously approved by the state
>> Democratic Party.)
>>
>> Chopp, who grew up in Bremerton, likes to describe himself as a
>> "Bremerton Democrat" (translation: "I'm almost like Norm Dicks.
>> Besides, I don't smoke pot; I drink beer. Vote for me, please!"),
>> presumably to distance himself from the "effete Seattle liberal" image
>> that scares him so badly ("One Washington," remember?) Basing public
>> policy on fear of what the conservative, largely rural, eastern
>> Washington might think seems to be Chopp's mode of operation.
>>
>> Chopp "repeatedly refused to provide any responses to citizens on the
>> issues through the 2008 Political Courage Test when asked to do so by
>> national leaders of the political parties, prominent members of the
>> media, Project Vote Smart President Richard Kimball, and Project Vote
>> Smart staff," according to Project Vote Smart. That would require,
>> like, taking a stand,you know?
>>
>> But it is perhaps telling that a few years ago Chopp, in the
>> "Washington Gubernatorial Election 1996 National Political Awareness
>> Test," wouldn't list marijuana decrim as a cause he supported:
>>
>> <3341137601_ 2640767>
>> Chart: Project Vote Smart
>>
>> The 400 Dollar Man
>>
>> Even Chopp's own constituents seem, well, unenthusiastic about him, at
>> least when it comes to campaign donations.
>>
>> In 2004, Chopp raised $91,585.80 for his reelection campaign -- but
>> only an embarrassing $400 came from residents from his own district --
>> a total of three of them. The lion's share is from corporations, PACs
>> and unions. Most of the rest is from individuals who live outside the
>> district.
>>
>> By way of contrast, Chopp's district mate, Ed Murray (who, unlike
>> Chopp, was running essentially unopposed) got plenty of contributions
>> from district residents.
>>
>> Playing It Safe? Really?
>>
>> The richly ironic thing is, Frank Chopp thinks he's playing it safe by
>> not letting the Dems vote on marijuana decrim -- when, in fact, he's
>> dangerously out of step with the people of Washington on this issue.
>>
>> A recent poll shows a whopping 81 percent of Washington voters believe
>> the state's pot laws are not working. Alison Holcomb, director of the
>> ACLU of Washington's Drug Policy Project, says public opinion is firmly
>> behind pot decrim.
>>
>> Yet Chopp's timidity on the marijuana issue kept the bill (whose prime
>> sponsor in the House was Rep. Dave Upthegrove of south King County)
>> from moving forward. What, exactly, must we do to convince Chopp to
>> actuallylead, rather than dodge furtively about in the shadows like a
>> spooked quail?
>>
>> Marijuana Laws Cost Us, Big Time: At Least $177 Million Per Year (and
>> counting)
>>
>> <3341137601_ 2606391>
>> Table: Dominic Holden, The Stranger
>>
>> Rep. Brendan Williams of Olympia, one of the decrim bill's co-sponsors,
>> used the cost-saving argument, vainly hoping hidebound conservative
>> legislators would be attracted by fiscal responsibility. "Do you choose
>> to provide health care for x number of children, or fund criminalizing
>> marijuana possession?" , he reasonably asked, citing a cost analysis of
>> marijuana arrests taken from Washington State Institute for Public
>> Policy data showing, based on the number of arrests in 2007, Washington
>> would save at least $7.5 million by decriminalizing pot.
>>
>> Throw in the $170 million the state of Washington wastes each year
>> enforcing its futile and outdated marijuana laws -- which have no
>> impact on marijuana use, according to the most extensive study ever
>> undertaken on marijuana arrests -- and pretty soon you're talking real
>> money.
>>
>> And what do Washington's citizens get for their $177 million a year?
>> Well, marijuana arrests, lots of them: 16,473 in 2007 -- 90 percent
>> (14,766) of which were for simple possession (which would be
>> decriminalized under the bill in question). Marijuana arrests accounted
>> for almost half (48%) of all drug arrests in Washington during 2007.
>>
>> Remember: The state of Washington is dealing with a $9 billion
>> shortfall this year, yet somehow, even while cutting vital educational
>> services, parks, and health care, finds money to bust pot smokers.
>>
>> But I guess a paltry few million here and there don't mean a lot to the
>> man who supports a project as monstrously expensive as what has been
>> dubbed the "Choppway" or "Choppaduct" to replace Seattle's aging
>> Viaduct -- even though voters in Chopp's district rejected an "elevated
>> rebuild" by a convincing 73 percent.
>>
>> The decrim bill would reduce the penalty for possessing up to 40 grams
>> of marijuana to a civil infraction, subject to a $100 fine. Under
>> current state law in Washington, having even one joint is a misdemeanor
>> punishable by up to 90 days in jail. (A similar measure passed by a
>> 30-point margin in a Massachusetts voter initiative last year.)
>>
>> The bill almost immediately hit a roadblock after being introduced in
>> January 2009. Rep. Chris Hurst of Enumclaw (office telephone
>> 360-786-7866) , a former narcotics officer(!) who chairs the Public
>> Safety and Emergency Preparedness Committee, refused to give the bill a
>> hearing. Ex-cop Hurst claimed he actually "supports" decrim, but said
>> Washington state "should not act ahead of the federal government."
>>
>> In fact that has never -- even once -- been a problem in the 13 states,
>> including even Mississippi, that have decriminalized. Besides,
>> according to Rep. Roger Goodman of Kirkland, an attorney and former
>> head of the King County Bar Association' s Drug Policy Project,
>> "Federal law clearly allows the states to prescribe their own
>> penalties, whether civil or criminal."
>>
>> Make no mistake about it: If House Speaker Frank Chopp had demonstrated
>> a little leadership (or cojones) on this issue, he could have asked
>> Hurst to pass the decrim bill out of committee. But he didn't... which
>> brings us back to the case of the missing balls.
>>
>> <3341137601_ 2593107>
>> Will Frank Chopp Ever Grow A Pair?
>>
>> Not unless his constituents (that's you, the voters) insist upon it;
>> growth isn't always easy or comfortable. But if you make opposing
>> marijuana decrim more uncomfortable for Frank Chopp than supporting it,
>> he'll come around. It's amazing how fast these things can sprout once
>> they get some proper support. (No, I'm not suggesting you think of
>> yourself as a jockstrap.)
>>
>> Call or write Rep. Chopp's office (contact info at bottom) and let him
>> know that you, like the majority of Washingtonians, support
>> decriminalizing marijuana.
>>
>> Sen. Jeanne Kohl-Welles, D- Seattle, has authored legislation making
>> possession of 40 grams or less of marijuana a civil infraction rather
>> than a misdemeanor. Though the bill didn't get far last session (thanks
>> in large part to Frank Chopp), Sen. Kohl-Welles plans on once again
>> pushing it hard when the Legislature gets to work in 2010.
>>
>> A matching bill will once again be introduced in the State House, where
>> it has considerable Democratic support. “It will definitely be
>> debated,” Rep. Mary Helen Roberts, D-Lynnwood, who supports
>> decriminalizing marijuana use and co-sponsored the House bill last
>> spring.
>>
>> This legislation is getting talked about among lawmakers seeking ways
>> of cutting costs in the face of a $2 billion hole in the current
>> budget, according to the Everett Herald-Net.
>>
>> We all owe a big thanks to the members of the State Senate Judiciary
>> Committee (which passed it 5-3 last spring) who supported the bill. The
>> members of the committee who voted to pass were prime sponsor Sen.
>> Jeanne Kohl-Welles, Committee Chair Sen. Adam Kline, Committee Vice
>> Chair Sen. Debbie Regala, and the eloquent, intelligent and articulate
>> Sen. Rodney Tom, all Democrats; and Republican Sen. Bob McCaslin, who
>> bravely crossed party lines to make this a bipartisan effort).
>>
>> On the other hand, Sen. Jim Hargrove and Sen. Pam Roach, along with
>> Sen. Mike Carrell (the three Senate committee members who voted against
>> the bill), proved that they don't mind wasting millions of your tax
>> dollars on futile, pointless and cruel marijuana enforcement. Vote
>> these clowns out of office next chance you get.
>>
>> Contact Info For House Speaker Frank Chopp's Office
>>
>> Call Speaker Chopp's office and let him know you support marijuana
>> decrim.
>> (Etiquette hint: it's probably best not to talk about the missing
>> balls.)
>>
>> Rep. Frank Chopp
>> P.O. Box 40600
>> Olympia, WA 98504-0600
>> (360) 786-7920
>> District/Position: 43/2 (Democrat)
>>
>> .......
>>
>> To view this article online:
>>
>> <http://realitycatch er-alapoet. blogspot. com/2009/ 11/marijuana-
>> decrim-frank- chopp-and- case.html>
>>
>> or
>>
>> http://bit.ly/203zrg
>>
>> --
>>
>> "Common experience shows how much rarer is moral courage than physical
>> bravery. A thousand men will march to the mouth of the cannon where one
>> man will dare espouse an unpopular cause."
>>
>> ~ Clarence Darrow
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
"Enjoy the ride..."
http://greenfloyd. site90.com/ _roller.readerX. php

#54977

From: Glenn <gameochance@...>
Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:32 pm
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

gameochance

Offline

I am in the Seattle area, and I am interested.

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@...>
To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 10:12:23 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

Any disagreement with my position on legal vs. decrim from those in Washington State? I will be back soon with the date, time, and place for a gathering to explore the potential of a legalize petition. Anyone with ideas, please share. This is as grass-roots as one can get.

Tax and Regulate vs. Keep Marijuana Illegal and Tax Free. I think we can win this fight.

I'll be up-front. I want to be a licensed cannabis provider, with my only costumer being the State of Washington. Let the State license growers, coffee shops, dispensaries, warehouse, and retail through the state liquor stores. Marijuana will be handled the same way in Washington as alcohol.

This is an opportunity to develop a legal cottage industry. Walk into a liquor store today, look at the many different brands and variety of alcohol products available. The same could happen with cannabis varieties. I do believe there should be limits to scale. This is understandably the hardest part to put together. We are all afraid of U.S. Tobacco or R.J. Reynolds dominating the market. I am not sure a provision regulating market share would hold-up in the courts, but we must try. ed

On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:14 AM, Glenn wrote:

Don't kid yourself... These folks don't have all their eggs in one basket. (I'm just full of cliches today...) They are in the business of supplying methamphetamine, cocaine, and other drugs (ecstasy, steroids) to the American and Canadian people, and they are also in the business of bringing weapons back across the borders to Mexico and points south. The thing about the current pot business that makes it different, and so lucrative, is that most of it is grown within our borders these days.

The list of those who don't necessarily want pot legalized include:
Law enforcement agencies
DAs and all prosecuting attorneys
Criminal defense attorneys
Agencies that fund public defenders
Congress
State legislatures
Most christian church congregations
Organized crime affiliates
Young toughs - Gang bangers
Many slightly capitalist hippie types who have a few outdoor plants that manage to mature every year, bringing in an extra few grand each year... Especially now.
Pharmaceutical companies and all those who own their stock, or run the businesses
The USCG
The CIA
The governments of: Cuba, Haiti, Dominicana, Panama, Nicaragua, Guatemala... The USA... For different reasons.
The list goes on and on.

Therein lies a whole lot of power. Lobbying power. Legislative power. Firepower. We still have a long row to hoe; and we might not have seen the worst of it yet. Then again, I just might be paranoid?

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: Jillian Galloway <jway86@yahoo. com>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 8:33:50 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

The cartels may want to retaliate but the problem for them is that bombing the coffeeshops and gunning down the proprietors won't generate them any income. Every hit costs money so if they're not actively generating money in return they'll quickly have to be abandoned. That's probably why they don't target our taverns and bars today in order to force themselves into the illegal alcohol business.

And as legalization will eliminate two-thirds of their incomes they're going to have major money problems, so spending their scarce resources going after the burgeoning legal marijuana outlets will be quickly seen as an effort in futility.

#54976

From: James Karl <bong_jamesbong2001@...>
Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:30 pm
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

bong_jamesbo...

Offline

totally wrong. wiping out the economic competition will bring in a lot more money. Just look at Mexico today"

End the oppression of cannabis and its consumers. Self defense is always correct, and it is never illegal. b_jb2001

--- On Wed, 11/18/09, Jillian Galloway <jway86@...> wrote:

From: Jillian Galloway <jway86@...>
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls
To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 8:33 AM

The cartels may want to retaliate but the problem for them is that bombing the coffeeshops and gunning down the proprietors won't generate them any income. Every hit costs money so if they're not actively generating money in return they'll quickly have to be abandoned. That's probably why they don't target our taverns and bars today in order to force themselves into the illegal alcohol business.

And as legalization will eliminate two-thirds of their incomes they're going to have major money problems, so spending their scarce resources going after the burgeoning legal marijuana outlets will be quickly seen as an effort in futility.

From: Floyd <xray.01z@netzero. net>
To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 11:07:22 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

In this era of massive corruption, tax and regulate will feed (and tame)
the political beast so it won't bite the hand that feeds... I don't think
activists have much to fear from cartels or gangs; yet as legalization
gains steam look out for those double-dipping spooks, badges and black
robes. Oh yeah! Don't forget all those corporate fascists who suck from
the public funded anti-Drug teat...

On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:34:53 -0800, Glenn <gameochance@ yahoo.com> wrote:

> The decrim, and, to a certain extent, the medpot movements have been a
> foot in the door, and as it were, quite effective "Baby steps" toward
> our ultimate goal of legalization. I agree with you though, Ed,
> especially in the current political climate. It's time to regroup as a
> movement, reorganize toward legalization, and make this become reality.
> Yes, there are many states that don't have medpot yet, but the AMA has
> reversed its stance on the medical use of cannabis which will generate
> much testing, and therefore the medical cannabis movement has gone truly
> mainstream. Now, it is time to legalize.
>
> The thing about legalization that many people don't seem to realize is
> that some of the biggest opposition to legalization will come from those
> engaged in supplying pot to the masses. Not those growing in closets,
> but the Mexican cartels, and their (often anglo) workers in the USA
> growing on the National Forest lands in Cali, Oregon, Washington, Utah,
> Tennessee, Florida, Arkansas; you get the picture. Yes, there will still
> be markets for all the pot they're growing, but the sudden legality is
> going to compromise their position... They will go from being suppliers
> of an illegal and highly sought after commodity to being merely illegal
> farmers overnight, and their overseers stand to lose everything. These
> guys have guns, and are already in the killing business. Yes, there will
> be opposition to the legalization process from some very strange places,
> be aware. As legalization becomes more of a realistic possibility, our
> collective position as activists just
> might put us in danger, especially those of us who are more in the
> public eye.
>
> My FirstCuppaCoffee rant for the day.
>
> -g-
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."
>
>
> - Aldous Huxley
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby. org>
> To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 5:33:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [CPOP] Marijuana Decrim, Frank Chopp, and the Case of the
> Missing Balls
>
>
> Hell Steve, forget Chopp, I don't like decrim and will do everything I
> can to let all know just how ridiculous pushing a decrim measure is.
> Why push decrim when legal and taxed and regulated is not anymore
> difficult? It makes no sense. Why does this group from the Seattle area
> including JoAnne, Ben L, Sen. K.-Wells, and the ACLU of WA. push
> decrim? Tell me why? Decrim is a box canyon you will not get out of.
> Oregon has had decrim for over 30 years. The time is ripe to legalize
> cannabis. No more baby steps.
> I propose a State wide petition to legalize, tax, and regulate cannabis
> is Washington State, and will be having a gathering of minds in Olympia
> between Thanksgiving and Christmas. We will need about $3 million to
> pull this off, so bring your checkbooks. Let's put it on the ballot and
> let the folks decide. I will not trust the legislature to do the right
> thing.
> Using the model established by the Bar Association of King County
> several years ago that would have the liquor control board be the lead
> agency in setting guidelines for cannabis cultivation, purchasing,
> warehousing, and distribution of cannabis product in Washington State.
> Simple, effective, and a money maker for all. Ed
>
>
> On Nov 15, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Steve Elliott wrote:
>
> http://bit.ly/ 203zrg
>>
>>
>> SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 15, 2009
>>
>> Marijuana Decrim, Frank Chopp, and the Case of the Missing Balls
>>
>> <3341137601_ 2591659>
>> Frank Chopp doesn't want to blow his speakers. (Photo: www.leg.wa.gov)
>>
>> Ever know someone who had a really hot car, but they were afraid to
>> really drive it?
>>
>> That's how Washington's Speaker of the House Frank Chopp rolls.
>>
>> How about the guy who had the 300-watt stereo system, but would never
>> crank it up because "I don't want to blow the speakers"?
>>
>> That's how Frank Chopp gets down.
>>
>> And that's exactly how Chopp was getting down when a bill to
>> decriminalize marijuana possession died in the Washington Legislature
>> last spring.
>>
>> According to multiple, well-placed sources (both inside the Legislature
>> and those observing), Chopp, through a lack of political will and
>> leadership, is the legislator most responsible for the death of
>> marijuana decrim in the last session. A reliable inside source, in a
>> position to know, tells me Chopp doesn't want to force a
>> "controversial" marijuana decrim vote by the entire Legislature,
>> because he doesn't want to force fellow Democrats (in the majority) to
>> vote on pot any time before the 2010 elections.
>>
>> The dude has a commanding Democratic majority in the state legislature,
>> yet seems eerily unwilling to actually use that power to achieve
>> progressive goals. Is that due to the fact that he's practically a
>> sponsored candidate of the far-right Building Industries Association of
>> Washington (BIAW), which funded both of Dino Rossi's reactionary (and
>> unsuccessful) campaigns for Governor? Maybe. Chopp has worked with the
>> BIAW to oppose consumer protection legislation supported by his own
>> party.
>>
>> "This is democracy at its worst," State Senator Brian Weinstein
>> (D-Mercer Island) told The Stranger in a 2007 interview. "Here is one
>> guy who overruled 30 Democratic senators and the Democratic House
>> Judiciary Committee. There's no point in doing the fact finding,
>> holding eight hours of hearings, of doing the right thing, if a
>> dictator can just pull the rug out from under you."
>>
>> "Weinstein went as far as to say Chopp killed the bill because he was
>> sucking up to the BIAW," The Stranger's Josh Feit reported. According
>> to Weinstein, Chopp wanted the BIAW on his side come election time to
>> protect the Democratic majority. "And," Weinstein added derisively,
>> "not do anything with it." (Chopp claims the BIAW had nothing to do
>> with his decision.)
>>
>> <3341137601_ 2620499>
>> Democratic Rep. Brendan Williams (D-Olympia), who wore a defiant "No
>> BIAW" pin to a Democratic holiday fundraising event in 2008, said he’s
>> not running again because Chopp has neutered the Democratic agenda in
>> Olympia by cozying up with the BIAW. Williams has been a major victim
>> of Chopp’s alliance with the builders association: Two years in a row
>> Williams’s homeowner bill of rights was killed at the last minute by
>> Chopp. The BIAW was upset that homeowners would, my goodness, have the
>> basic right to sue for faulty construction.
>>
>> "Losing his majority" seems to be a deep and recurring fear for Chopp;
>> it seems not to have occurred to the man that the reason he enjoys a
>> big Democratic majority in the House is that maybe, just maybe, the
>> voters support the Democratic agenda. His continual trumpeting of the
>> "One Washington" theme sounds less like a yen for unity and more like a
>> call for capitulation to conservatives. This is probably why Dominic
>> Holden of Seattle alternative newspaper The Stranger has called Chopp a
>> "feckless sissy."
>>
>> The House Speaker has gone so far to appease the GOP that one prominent
>> Demoractic State Senator, asked if Washington Attorney General Rob
>> McKenna would be the Republican nominee for governor in 2012, replied,
>> “Who knows? The GOP could run Chopp.”
>>
>> Chopp's leadership style, or lack thereof, has been a growing source of
>> controversy within progressive Democrats for some time now. Over and
>> over, you see Chopp described as "the most powerful politician in the
>> state," but you'd never guess it from his unwillingness to go out on a
>> limb, to take a stand, to have a backbone.
>>
>> This is frustrating for progressive Democratic voters who (over?)assume
>> that having a liberal House Speaker like Chopp would result in more
>> progressive advances. Granted, Chopp has passed the estate tax,
>> collective bargaining for state employees, a housing trust fund, the
>> highest minimum wage in the country, opportunity grants for college
>> tuition, and other achievements.
>>
>> But edge a little farther out the progressive limb and it doesn't take
>> long to run into a laundry list of disappointments. Progressive
>> wish-list items like environmental protections on Maury Island,
>> payday-loan guidelines to protect low-income borrowers (which even
>> Georgia has), ratcheting down the more than 400 lucrative tax loopholes
>> handed out by the state to corporations. .. all unfulfilled promises,
>> all due to Chopp's failure, despite wide party and voter support, to
>> make it happen.
>>
>> Labor unions, disappointed by Chopp's (and Gov. Chris Gregoire's)
>> failure to bring the Workers Privacy Act (WPA) to a vote in the 2009
>> session, in an unprecedented move, declined to endorse any candidates
>> this year. (The WPA supports First Amendment privacy rights of
>> individual conscience, including opinions about politics, religion,
>> unionization, and charitable giving. The WPA would have made sure that
>> employees who resist any indoctrination of this kind by their employers
>> would not be punished, and was unanimously approved by the state
>> Democratic Party.)
>>
>> Chopp, who grew up in Bremerton, likes to describe himself as a
>> "Bremerton Democrat" (translation: "I'm almost like Norm Dicks.
>> Besides, I don't smoke pot; I drink beer. Vote for me, please!"),
>> presumably to distance himself from the "effete Seattle liberal" image
>> that scares him so badly ("One Washington," remember?) Basing public
>> policy on fear of what the conservative, largely rural, eastern
>> Washington might think seems to be Chopp's mode of operation.
>>
>> Chopp "repeatedly refused to provide any responses to citizens on the
>> issues through the 2008 Political Courage Test when asked to do so by
>> national leaders of the political parties, prominent members of the
>> media, Project Vote Smart President Richard Kimball, and Project Vote
>> Smart staff," according to Project Vote Smart. That would require,
>> like, taking a stand,you know?
>>
>> But it is perhaps telling that a few years ago Chopp, in the
>> "Washington Gubernatorial Election 1996 National Political Awareness
>> Test," wouldn't list marijuana decrim as a cause he supported:
>>
>> <3341137601_ 2640767>
>> Chart: Project Vote Smart
>>
>> The 400 Dollar Man
>>
>> Even Chopp's own constituents seem, well, unenthusiastic about him, at
>> least when it comes to campaign donations.
>>
>> In 2004, Chopp raised $91,585.80 for his reelection campaign -- but
>> only an embarrassing $400 came from residents from his own district --
>> a total of three of them. The lion's share is from corporations, PACs
>> and unions. Most of the rest is from individuals who live outside the
>> district.
>>
>> By way of contrast, Chopp's district mate, Ed Murray (who, unlike
>> Chopp, was running essentially unopposed) got plenty of contributions
>> from district residents.
>>
>> Playing It Safe? Really?
>>
>> The richly ironic thing is, Frank Chopp thinks he's playing it safe by
>> not letting the Dems vote on marijuana decrim -- when, in fact, he's
>> dangerously out of step with the people of Washington on this issue.
>>
>> A recent poll shows a whopping 81 percent of Washington voters believe
>> the state's pot laws are not working. Alison Holcomb, director of the
>> ACLU of Washington's Drug Policy Project, says public opinion is firmly
>> behind pot decrim.
>>
>> Yet Chopp's timidity on the marijuana issue kept the bill (whose prime
>> sponsor in the House was Rep. Dave Upthegrove of south King County)
>> from moving forward. What, exactly, must we do to convince Chopp to
>> actuallylead, rather than dodge furtively about in the shadows like a
>> spooked quail?
>>
>> Marijuana Laws Cost Us, Big Time: At Least $177 Million Per Year (and
>> counting)
>>
>> <3341137601_ 2606391>
>> Table: Dominic Holden, The Stranger
>>
>> Rep. Brendan Williams of Olympia, one of the decrim bill's co-sponsors,
>> used the cost-saving argument, vainly hoping hidebound conservative
>> legislators would be attracted by fiscal responsibility. "Do you choose
>> to provide health care for x number of children, or fund criminalizing
>> marijuana possession?" , he reasonably asked, citing a cost analysis of
>> marijuana arrests taken from Washington State Institute for Public
>> Policy data showing, based on the number of arrests in 2007, Washington
>> would save at least $7.5 million by decriminalizing pot.
>>
>> Throw in the $170 million the state of Washington wastes each year
>> enforcing its futile and outdated marijuana laws -- which have no
>> impact on marijuana use, according to the most extensive study ever
>> undertaken on marijuana arrests -- and pretty soon you're talking real
>> money.
>>
>> And what do Washington's citizens get for their $177 million a year?
>> Well, marijuana arrests, lots of them: 16,473 in 2007 -- 90 percent
>> (14,766) of which were for simple possession (which would be
>> decriminalized under the bill in question). Marijuana arrests accounted
>> for almost half (48%) of all drug arrests in Washington during 2007.
>>
>> Remember: The state of Washington is dealing with a $9 billion
>> shortfall this year, yet somehow, even while cutting vital educational
>> services, parks, and health care, finds money to bust pot smokers.
>>
>> But I guess a paltry few million here and there don't mean a lot to the
>> man who supports a project as monstrously expensive as what has been
>> dubbed the "Choppway" or "Choppaduct" to replace Seattle's aging
>> Viaduct -- even though voters in Chopp's district rejected an "elevated
>> rebuild" by a convincing 73 percent.
>>
>> The decrim bill would reduce the penalty for possessing up to 40 grams
>> of marijuana to a civil infraction, subject to a $100 fine. Under
>> current state law in Washington, having even one joint is a misdemeanor
>> punishable by up to 90 days in jail. (A similar measure passed by a
>> 30-point margin in a Massachusetts voter initiative last year.)
>>
>> The bill almost immediately hit a roadblock after being introduced in
>> January 2009. Rep. Chris Hurst of Enumclaw (office telephone
>> 360-786-7866) , a former narcotics officer(!) who chairs the Public
>> Safety and Emergency Preparedness Committee, refused to give the bill a
>> hearing. Ex-cop Hurst claimed he actually "supports" decrim, but said
>> Washington state "should not act ahead of the federal government."
>>
>> In fact that has never -- even once -- been a problem in the 13 states,
>> including even Mississippi, that have decriminalized. Besides,
>> according to Rep. Roger Goodman of Kirkland, an attorney and former
>> head of the King County Bar Association' s Drug Policy Project,
>> "Federal law clearly allows the states to prescribe their own
>> penalties, whether civil or criminal."
>>
>> Make no mistake about it: If House Speaker Frank Chopp had demonstrated
>> a little leadership (or cojones) on this issue, he could have asked
>> Hurst to pass the decrim bill out of committee. But he didn't... which
>> brings us back to the case of the missing balls.
>>
>> <3341137601_ 2593107>
>> Will Frank Chopp Ever Grow A Pair?
>>
>> Not unless his constituents (that's you, the voters) insist upon it;
>> growth isn't always easy or comfortable. But if you make opposing
>> marijuana decrim more uncomfortable for Frank Chopp than supporting it,
>> he'll come around. It's amazing how fast these things can sprout once
>> they get some proper support. (No, I'm not suggesting you think of
>> yourself as a jockstrap.)
>>
>> Call or write Rep. Chopp's office (contact info at bottom) and let him
>> know that you, like the majority of Washingtonians, support
>> decriminalizing marijuana.
>>
>> Sen. Jeanne Kohl-Welles, D- Seattle, has authored legislation making
>> possession of 40 grams or less of marijuana a civil infraction rather
>> than a misdemeanor. Though the bill didn't get far last session (thanks
>> in large part to Frank Chopp), Sen. Kohl-Welles plans on once again
>> pushing it hard when the Legislature gets to work in 2010.
>>
>> A matching bill will once again be introduced in the State House, where
>> it has considerable Democratic support. “It will definitely be
>> debated,” Rep. Mary Helen Roberts, D-Lynnwood, who supports
>> decriminalizing marijuana use and co-sponsored the House bill last
>> spring.
>>
>> This legislation is getting talked about among lawmakers seeking ways
>> of cutting costs in the face of a $2 billion hole in the current
>> budget, according to the Everett Herald-Net.
>>
>> We all owe a big thanks to the members of the State Senate Judiciary
>> Committee (which passed it 5-3 last spring) who supported the bill. The
>> members of the committee who voted to pass were prime sponsor Sen.
>> Jeanne Kohl-Welles, Committee Chair Sen. Adam Kline, Committee Vice
>> Chair Sen. Debbie Regala, and the eloquent, intelligent and articulate
>> Sen. Rodney Tom, all Democrats; and Republican Sen. Bob McCaslin, who
>> bravely crossed party lines to make this a bipartisan effort).
>>
>> On the other hand, Sen. Jim Hargrove and Sen. Pam Roach, along with
>> Sen. Mike Carrell (the three Senate committee members who voted against
>> the bill), proved that they don't mind wasting millions of your tax
>> dollars on futile, pointless and cruel marijuana enforcement. Vote
>> these clowns out of office next chance you get.
>>
>> Contact Info For House Speaker Frank Chopp's Office
>>
>> Call Speaker Chopp's office and let him know you support marijuana
>> decrim.
>> (Etiquette hint: it's probably best not to talk about the missing
>> balls.)
>>
>> Rep. Frank Chopp
>> P.O. Box 40600
>> Olympia, WA 98504-0600
>> (360) 786-7920
>> District/Position: 43/2 (Democrat)
>>
>> .......
>>
>> To view this article online:
>>
>> <http://realitycatch er-alapoet. blogspot. com/2009/ 11/marijuana-
>> decrim-frank- chopp-and- case.html>
>>
>> or
>>
>> http://bit.ly/ 203zrg
>>
>> --
>>
>> "Common experience shows how much rarer is moral courage than physical
>> bravery. A thousand men will march to the mouth of the cannon where one
>> man will dare espouse an unpopular cause."
>>
>> ~ Clarence Darrow
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
"Enjoy the ride..."
http://greenfloyd. site90.com/ _roller.readerX. php

#54975

From: "ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org" <ed@...>
Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:12 pm
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...Chopp's balls

ed@...

Any disagreement with my position on legal vs. decrim from those in Washington State? �I will be back soon with the date, time, and place for a gathering to explore the potential of a legalize petition. Anyone with ideas, please share. �This is as grass-roots as one can get.�

Tax and Regulate vs. Keep Marijuana Illegal and Tax Free.�I think we can win this fight.�

I'll be up-front. I want to be a licensed cannabis provider, with my only costumer being the State of Washington. �Let the State license growers, coffee shops, dispensaries, warehouse, and retail through the state liquor stores. Marijuana will be handled the same way in Washington as alcohol.�

On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:14 AM, Glenn wrote:

Don't kid yourself... These folks don't have all their eggs in one basket. (I'm just full of cliches today...) They are in the business of supplying methamphetamine, cocaine, and other drugs (ecstasy, steroids) to the American and Canadian people, and they are also in the business of bringing weapons back across the borders to Mexico and points south. The thing about the current pot business that makes it different, and so lucrative, is that most of it is grown within our borders these days.�

The list of those who don't necessarily want pot legalized include:
Law enforcement agencies
DAs and all prosecuting attorneys
Criminal defense attorneys
Agencies that fund public defenders
Congress
State legislatures
Most christian church congregations
Organized crime affiliates
Young toughs - Gang bangers
Many slightly capitalist hippie types who have a few outdoor plants that manage to mature every year, bringing in an extra few grand each year... Especially now.
Pharmaceutical companies and all those who own their stock, or run the businesses
The USCG
The CIA
The governments of: Cuba, Haiti, Dominicana, Panama, Nicaragua, Guatemala... The USA... For different reasons.
The list goes on and on.

Therein lies a whole lot of power. Lobbying power. Legislative power. Firepower. We still have a long row to hoe; and we might not have seen the worst of it yet. Then again, I just might be paranoid?

-g-

�
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."�

- Aldous Huxley

From:�Jillian Galloway <jway86@yahoo.com>
To:�cp3@yahoogroups.com
Sent:�Wed, November 18, 2009 8:33:50 AM
Subject:�Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

The cartels may want to retaliate but the problem for them is that bombing the coffeeshops and gunning down the proprietors won't generate them any income. Every hit costs money so if they're not actively generating money in return they'll quickly have to be abandoned. That's probably why they don't target our taverns and bars today in order to force themselves into the illegal alcohol business.

And as legalization will eliminate two-thirds of their incomes they're going to have major money problems, so spending their scarce resources going after the burgeoning legal marijuana outlets will be quickly seen as an effort in futility.

#54974

From: Glenn <gameochance@...>
Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:14 pm
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

gameochance

Offline

Don't kid yourself... These folks don't have all their eggs in one basket. (I'm just full of cliches today...) They are in the business of supplying methamphetamine, cocaine, and other drugs (ecstasy, steroids) to the American and Canadian people, and they are also in the business of bringing weapons back across the borders to Mexico and points south. The thing about the current pot business that makes it different, and so lucrative, is that most of it is grown within our borders these days.

The list of those who don't necessarily want pot legalized include:
Law enforcement agencies
DAs and all prosecuting attorneys
Criminal defense attorneys
Agencies that fund public defenders
Congress
State legislatures
Most christian church congregations
Organized crime affiliates
Young toughs - Gang bangers

Many slightly capitalist hippie types who have a few outdoor plants that manage to mature every year, bringing in an extra few grand each year... Especially now.
Pharmaceutical companies and all those who own their stock, or run the businesses
The USCG
The CIA
The governments of: Cuba, Haiti, Dominicana, Panama, Nicaragua, Guatemala... The USA... For different reasons.
The list goes on and on.

Therein lies a whole lot of power. Lobbying power. Legislative power. Firepower. We still have a long row to hoe; and we might not have seen the worst of it yet. Then again, I just might be paranoid?

-g-

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."

- Aldous Huxley

From: Jillian Galloway <jway86@...>
To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 8:33:50 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

The cartels may want to retaliate but the problem for them is that bombing the coffeeshops and gunning down the proprietors won't generate them any income. Every hit costs money so if they're not actively generating money in return they'll quickly have to be abandoned. That's probably why they don't target our taverns and bars today in order to force themselves into the illegal alcohol business.

And as legalization will eliminate two-thirds of their incomes they're going to have major money problems, so spending their scarce resources going after the burgeoning legal marijuana outlets will be quickly seen as an effort in futility.

#54973

From: Jillian Galloway <jway86@...>
Date: Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:33 pm
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

jway86

Offline

From: Floyd <xray.01z@...>
To: cp3@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 11:07:22 AM
Subject: Re: [CPOP] ...the Case of the Missing Balls

In this era of massive corruption, tax and regulate will feed (and tame)
the political beast so it won't bite the hand that feeds... I don't think
activists have much to fear from cartels or gangs; yet as legalization
gains steam look out for those double-dipping spooks, badges and black
robes. Oh yeah! Don't forget all those corporate fascists who suck from
the public funded anti-Drug teat...

On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:34:53 -0800, Glenn <gameochance@ yahoo.com> wrote:

> The decrim, and, to a certain extent, the medpot movements have been a
> foot in the door, and as it were, quite effective "Baby steps" toward
> our ultimate goal of legalization. I agree with you though, Ed,
> especially in the current political climate. It's time to regroup as a
> movement, reorganize toward legalization, and make this become reality.
> Yes, there are many states that don't have medpot yet, but the AMA has
> reversed its stance on the medical use of cannabis which will generate
> much testing, and therefore the medical cannabis movement has gone truly
> mainstream. Now, it is time to legalize.
>
> The thing about legalization that many people don't seem to realize is
> that some of the biggest opposition to legalization will come from those
> engaged in supplying pot to the masses. Not those growing in closets,
> but the Mexican cartels, and their (often anglo) workers in the USA
> growing on the National Forest lands in Cali, Oregon, Washington, Utah,
> Tennessee, Florida, Arkansas; you get the picture. Yes, there will still
> be markets for all the pot they're growing, but the sudden legality is
> going to compromise their position... They will go from being suppliers
> of an illegal and highly sought after commodity to being merely illegal
> farmers overnight, and their overseers stand to lose everything. These
> guys have guns, and are already in the killing business. Yes, there will
> be opposition to the legalization process from some very strange places,
> be aware. As legalization becomes more of a realistic possibility, our
> collective position as activists just
> might put us in danger, especially those of us who are more in the
> public eye.
>
> My FirstCuppaCoffee rant for the day.
>
> -g-
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you angry."
>
>
> - Aldous Huxley
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: ed Saukkooja hemplobby.org <ed@hemplobby. org>
> To: cp3@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 5:33:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [CPOP] Marijuana Decrim, Frank Chopp, and the Case of the
> Missing Balls
>
>
> Hell Steve, forget Chopp, I don't like decrim and will do everything I
> can to let all know just how ridiculous pushing a decrim measure is.
> Why push decrim when legal and taxed and regulated is not anymore
> difficult? It makes no sense. Why does this group from the Seattle area
> including JoAnne, Ben L, Sen. K.-Wells, and the ACLU of WA. push
> decrim? Tell me why? Decrim is a box canyon you will not get out of.
> Oregon has had decrim for over 30 years. The time is ripe to legalize
> cannabis. No more baby steps.
> I propose a State wide petition to legalize, tax, and regulate cannabis
> is Washington State, and will be having a gathering of minds in Olympia
> between Thanksgiving and Christmas. We will need about $3 million to
> pull this off, so bring your checkbooks. Let's put it on the ballot and
> let the folks decide. I will not trust the legislature to do the right
> thing.
> Using the model established by the Bar Association of King County
> several years ago that would have the liquor control board be the lead
> agency in setting guidelines for cannabis cultivation, purchasing,
> warehousing, and distribution of cannabis product in Washington State.
> Simple, effective, and a money maker for all. Ed
>
>
> On Nov 15, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Steve Elliott wrote:
>
> http://bit.ly/ 203zrg
>>
>>
>> SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 15, 2009
>>
>> Marijuana Decrim, Frank Chopp, and the Case of the Missing Balls
>>
>> <3341137601_ 2591659>
>> Frank Chopp doesn't want to blow his speakers. (Photo: www.leg.wa.gov)
>>
>> Ever know someone who had a really hot car, but they were afraid to
>> really drive it?
>>
>> That's how Washington's Speaker of the House Frank Chopp rolls.
>>
>> How about the guy who had the 300-watt stereo system, but would never
>> crank it up because "I don't want to blow the speakers"?
>>
>> That's how Frank Chopp gets down.
>>
>> And that's exactly how Chopp was getting down when a bill to
>> decriminalize marijuana possession died in the Washington Legislature
>> last spring.
>>
>> According to multiple, well-placed sources (both inside the Legislature
>> and those observing), Chopp, through a lack of political will and
>> leadership, is the legislator most responsible for the death of
>> marijuana decrim in the last session. A reliable inside source, in a
>> position to know, tells me Chopp doesn't want to force a
>> "controversial" marijuana decrim vote by the entire Legislature,
>> because he doesn't want to force fellow Democrats (in the majority) to
>> vote on pot any time before the 2010 elections.
>>
>> The dude has a commanding Democratic majority in the state legislature,
>> yet seems eerily unwilling to actually use that power to achieve
>> progressive goals. Is that due to the fact that he's practically a
>> sponsored candidate of the far-right Building Industries Association of
>> Washington (BIAW), which funded both of Dino Rossi's reactionary (and
>> unsuccessful) campaigns for Governor? Maybe. Chopp has worked with the
>> BIAW to oppose consumer protection legislation supported by his own
>> party.
>>
>> "This is democracy at its worst," State Senator Brian Weinstein
>> (D-Mercer Island) told The Stranger in a 2007 interview. "Here is one
>> guy who overruled 30 Democratic senators and the Democratic House
>> Judiciary Committee. There's no point in doing the fact finding,
>> holding eight hours of hearings, of doing the right thing, if a
>> dictator can just pull the rug out from under you."
>>
>> "Weinstein went as far as to say Chopp killed the bill because he was
>> sucking up to the BIAW," The Stranger's Josh Feit reported. According
>> to Weinstein, Chopp wanted the BIAW on his side come election time to
>> protect the Democratic majority. "And," Weinstein added derisively,
>> "not do anything with it." (Chopp claims the BIAW had nothing to do
>> with his decision.)
>>
>> <3341137601_ 2620499>
>> Democratic Rep. Brendan Williams (D-Olympia), who wore a defiant "No
>> BIAW" pin to a Democratic holiday fundraising event in 2008, said he’s
>> not running again because Chopp has neutered the Democratic agenda in
>> Olympia by cozying up with the BIAW. Williams has been a major victim
>> of Chopp’s alliance with the builders association: Two years in a row
>> Williams’s homeowner bill of rights was killed at the last minute by
>> Chopp. The BIAW was upset that homeowners would, my goodness, have the
>> basic right to sue for faulty construction.
>>
>> "Losing his majority" seems to be a deep and recurring fear for Chopp;
>> it seems not to have occurred to the man that the reason he enjoys a
>> big Democratic majority in the House is that maybe, just maybe, the
>> voters support the Democratic agenda. His continual trumpeting of the
>> "One Washington" theme sounds less like a yen for unity and more like a
>> call for capitulation to conservatives. This is probably why Dominic
>> Holden of Seattle alternative newspaper The Stranger has called Chopp a
>> "feckless sissy."
>>
>> The House Speaker has gone so far to appease the GOP that one prominent
>> Demoractic State Senator, asked if Washington Attorney General Rob
>> McKenna would be the Republican nominee for governor in 2012, replied,
>> “Who knows? The GOP could run Chopp.”
>>
>> Chopp's leadership style, or lack thereof, has been a growing source of
>> controversy within progressive Democrats for some time now. Over and
>> over, you see Chopp described as "the most powerful politician in the
>> state," but you'd never guess it from his unwillingness to go out on a
>> limb, to take a stand, to have a backbone.
>>
>> This is frustrating for progressive Democratic voters who (over?)assume
>> that having a liberal House Speaker like Chopp would result in more
>> progressive advances. Granted, Chopp has passed the estate tax,
>> collective bargaining for state employees, a housing trust fund, the
>> highest minimum wage in the country, opportunity grants for college
>> tuition, and other achievements.
>>
>> But edge a little farther out the progressive limb and it doesn't take
>> long to run into a laundry list of disappointments. Progressive
>> wish-list items like environmental protections on Maury Island,
>> payday-loan guidelines to protect low-income borrowers (which even
>> Georgia has), ratcheting down the more than 400 lucrative tax loopholes
>> handed out by the state to corporations. .. all unfulfilled promises,
>> all due to Chopp's failure, despite wide party and voter support, to
>> make it happen.
>>
>> Labor unions, disappointed by Chopp's (and Gov. Chris Gregoire's)
>> failure to bring the Workers Privacy Act (WPA) to a vote in the 2009
>> session, in an unprecedented move, declined to endorse any candidates
>> this year. (The WPA supports First Amendment privacy rights of
>> individual conscience, including opinions about politics, religion,
>> unionization, and charitable giving. The WPA would have made sure that
>> employees who resist any indoctrination of this kind by their employers
>> would not be punished, and was unanimously approved by the state
>> Democratic Party.)
>>
>> Chopp, who grew up in Bremerton, likes to describe himself as a
>> "Bremerton Democrat" (translation: "I'm almost like Norm Dicks.
>> Besides, I don't smoke pot; I drink beer. Vote for me, please!"),
>> presumably to distance himself from the "effete Seattle liberal" image
>> that scares him so badly ("One Washington," remember?) Basing public
>> policy on fear of what the conservative, largely rural, eastern
>> Washington might think seems to be Chopp's mode of operation.
>>
>> Chopp "repeatedly refused to provide any responses to citizens on the
>> issues through the 2008 Political Courage Test when asked to do so by
>> national leaders of the political parties, prominent members of the
>> media, Project Vote Smart President Richard Kimball, and Project Vote
>> Smart staff," according to Project Vote Smart. That would require,
>> like, taking a stand,you know?
>>
>> But it is perhaps telling that a few years ago Chopp, in the
>> "Washington Gubernatorial Election 1996 National Political Awareness
>> Test," wouldn't list marijuana decrim as a cause he supported:
>>
>> <3341137601_ 2640767>
>> Chart: Project Vote Smart
>>
>> The 400 Dollar Man
>>
>> Even Chopp's own constituents seem, well, unenthusiastic about him, at
>> least when it comes to campaign donations.
>>
>> In 2004, Chopp raised $91,585.80 for his reelection campaign -- but
>> only an embarrassing $400 came from residents from his own district --
>> a total of three of them. The lion's share is from corporations, PACs
>> and unions. Most of the rest is from individuals who live outside the
>> district.
>>
>> By way of contrast, Chopp's district mate, Ed Murray (who, unlike
>> Chopp, was running essentially unopposed) got plenty of contributions
>> from district residents.
>>
>> Playing It Safe? Really?
>>
>> The richly ironic thing is, Frank Chopp thinks he's playing it safe by
>> not letting the Dems vote on marijuana decrim -- when, in fact, he's
>> dangerously out of step with the people of Washington on this issue.
>>
>> A recent poll shows a whopping 81 percent of Washington voters believe
>> the state's pot laws are not working. Alison Holcomb, director of the
>> ACLU of Washington's Drug Policy Project, says public opinion is firmly
>> behind pot decrim.
>>
>> Yet Chopp's timidity on the marijuana issue kept the bill (whose prime
>> sponsor in the House was Rep. Dave Upthegrove of south King County)
>> from moving forward. What, exactly, must we do to convince Chopp to
>> actuallylead, rather than dodge furtively about in the shadows like a
>> spooked quail?
>>
>> Marijuana Laws Cost Us, Big Time: At Least $177 Million Per Year (and
>> counting)
>>
>> <3341137601_ 2606391>
>> Table: Dominic Holden, The Stranger
>>
>> Rep. Brendan Williams of Olympia, one of the decrim bill's co-sponsors,
>> used the cost-saving argument, vainly hoping hidebound conservative
>> legislators would be attracted by fiscal responsibility. "Do you choose
>> to provide health care for x number of children, or fund criminalizing
>> marijuana possession?" , he reasonably asked, citing a cost analysis of
>> marijuana arrests taken from Washington State Institute for Public
>> Policy data showing, based on the number of arrests in 2007, Washington
>> would save at least $7.5 million by decriminalizing pot.
>>
>> Throw in the $170 million the state of Washington wastes each year
>> enforcing its futile and outdated marijuana laws -- which have no
>> impact on marijuana use, according to the most extensive study ever
>> undertaken on marijuana arrests -- and pretty soon you're talking real
>> money.
>>
>> And what do Washington's citizens get for their $177 million a year?
>> Well, marijuana arrests, lots of them: 16,473 in 2007 -- 90 percent
>> (14,766) of which were for simple possession (which would be
>> decriminalized under the bill in question). Marijuana arrests accounted
>> for almost half (48%) of all drug arrests in Washington during 2007.
>>
>> Remember: The state of Washington is dealing with a $9 billion
>> shortfall this year, yet somehow, even while cutting vital educational
>> services, parks, and health care, finds money to bust pot smokers.
>>
>> But I guess a paltry few million here and there don't mean a lot to the
>> man who supports a project as monstrously expensive as what has been
>> dubbed the "Choppway" or "Choppaduct" to replace Seattle's aging
>> Viaduct -- even though voters in Chopp's district rejected an "elevated
>> rebuild" by a convincing 73 percent.
>>
>> The decrim bill would reduce the penalty for possessing up to 40 grams
>> of marijuana to a civil infraction, subject to a $100 fine. Under
>> current state law in Washington, having even one joint is a misdemeanor
>> punishable by up to 90 days in jail. (A similar measure passed by a
>> 30-point margin in a Massachusetts voter initiative last year.)
>>
>> The bill almost immediately hit a roadblock after being introduced in
>> January 2009. Rep. Chris Hurst of Enumclaw (office telephone
>> 360-786-7866) , a former narcotics officer(!) who chairs the Public
>> Safety and Emergency Preparedness Committee, refused to give the bill a
>> hearing. Ex-cop Hurst claimed he actually "supports" decrim, but said
>> Washington state "should not act ahead of the federal government."
>>
>> In fact that has never -- even once -- been a problem in the 13 states,
>> including even Mississippi, that have decriminalized. Besides,
>> according to Rep. Roger Goodman of Kirkland, an attorney and former
>> head of the King County Bar Association' s Drug Policy Project,
>> "Federal law clearly allows the states to prescribe their own
>> penalties, whether civil or criminal."
>>
>> Make no mistake about it: If House Speaker Frank Chopp had demonstrated
>> a little leadership (or cojones) on this issue, he could have asked
>> Hurst to pass the decrim bill out of committee. But he didn't... which
>> brings us back to the case of the missing balls.
>>
>> <3341137601_ 2593107>
>> Will Frank Chopp Ever Grow A Pair?
>>
>> Not unless his constituents (that's you, the voters) insist upon it;
>> growth isn't always easy or comfortable. But if you make opposing
>> marijuana decrim more uncomfortable for Frank Chopp than supporting it,
>> he'll come around. It's amazing how fast these things can sprout once
>> they get some proper support. (No, I'm not suggesting you think of
>> yourself as a jockstrap.)
>>
>> Call or write Rep. Chopp's office (contact info at bottom) and let him
>> know that you, like the majority of Washingtonians, support
>> decriminalizing marijuana.
>>
>> Sen. Jeanne Kohl-Welles, D- Seattle, has authored legislation making
>> possession of 40 grams or less of marijuana a civil infraction rather
>> than a misdemeanor. Though the bill didn't get far last session (thanks
>> in large part to Frank Chopp), Sen. Kohl-Welles plans on once again
>> pushing it hard when the Legislature gets to work in 2010.
>>
>> A matching bill will once again be introduced in the State House, where
>> it has considerable Democratic support. “It will definitely be
>> debated,” Rep. Mary Helen Roberts, D-Lynnwood, who supports
>> decriminalizing marijuana use and co-sponsored the House bill last
>> spring.
>>
>> This legislation is getting talked about among lawmakers seeking ways
>> of cutting costs in the face of a $2 billion hole in the current
>> budget, according to the Everett Herald-Net.
>>
>> We all owe a big thanks to the members of the State Senate Judiciary
>> Committee (which passed it 5-3 last spring) who supported the bill. The
>> members of the committee who voted to pass were prime sponsor Sen.
>> Jeanne Kohl-Welles, Committee Chair Sen. Adam Kline, Committee Vice
>> Chair Sen. Debbie Regala, and the eloquent, intelligent and articulate
>> Sen. Rodney Tom, all Democrats; and Republican Sen. Bob McCaslin, who
>> bravely crossed party lines to make this a bipartisan effort).
>>
>> On the other hand, Sen. Jim Hargrove and Sen. Pam Roach, along with
>> Sen. Mike Carrell (the three Senate committee members who voted against
>> the bill), proved that they don't mind wasting millions of your tax
>> dollars on futile, pointless and cruel marijuana enforcement. Vote
>> these clowns out of office next chance you get.
>>
>> Contact Info For House Speaker Frank Chopp's Office
>>
>> Call Speaker Chopp's office and let him know you support marijuana
>> decrim.
>> (Etiquette hint: it's probably best not to talk about the missing
>> balls.)
>>
>> Rep. Frank Chopp
>> P.O. Box 40600
>> Olympia, WA 98504-0600
>> (360) 786-7920
>> District/Position: 43/2 (Democrat)
>>
>> .......
>>
>> To view this article online:
>>
>> <http://realitycatch er-alapoet. blogspot. com/2009/ 11/marijuana-
>> decrim-frank- chopp-and- case.html>
>>
>> or
>>
>> http://bit.ly/ 203zrg
>>
>> --
>>
>> "Common experience shows how much rarer is moral courage than physical
>> bravery. A thousand men will march to the mouth of the cannon where one
>> man will dare espouse an unpopular cause."
>>
>> ~ Clarence Darrow
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
"Enjoy the ride..."
http://greenfloyd. site90.com/ _roller.readerX. php