Please excuse any odd typos in this post as I am riding in car and typing on my
Treo.
Aside from not being good for your speakers to blast out subsonics, this could
add a type of entrainment to the session, but a mostly inneffective one.  I'd
look at other forms of direct entrainment.
Since most of the frequencies we are interested in entraining to are under 100
Hz., these aree the only mixing artifacts that need to concern us from an
entrainment perspective.  We use either surf or white/pink noise as our
background since it is essentially randon in nature.  For binaurals, many
programs stick to just the carriers.  With carefully chosen tones it can be very
pleasing.  Try to choose music that doesn't feature a heavy bass line.  Smoke on
the Water is a poor choice.
Hope this helps.

Dr. Richard Price
RCP Consulting
http://www.rcpconsulting.us
Check our St. Patrick's Day Specials on our website.
Massive Weight Loss program now available.

--- In bwgen@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Dolen" <robert.dolen@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, What impact does volume levels have on the various frequencies.
> For example, say you are using the inaudible range of Hz, 3 Hz and youblast
> it out of a stereo at maximum volume (perhaps felt, but not heard signal)will
> this make the brain attune faster or so to this specific frequency? Many
> entrainment solutions seem to involve sounds and music thatessentially
> mix in other frequencies in the audible range.
> Won´t that collide with the real Hz you are there for in the first place?
> Wouldn´t it be more effective with just the particular frequencies in the
> headphonesand not influence them with the "other Hz´s" of the music and
> sounds etc---??? Regards
> Robert
>

I get a lot of mail from people asking me what frequency should they
use to overcome this phobia to change a certain behavior, are
subliminal suggestions for real and a host of other questions.  Let me
answer a few  of them here.  Lets start with definitions.

Brainwave Entrainment is the tendency of the brain to entrain on any
rhythmic stimulus (light, sound, touch) and make it the predominant
brainwave frequency.  Not the only frequency - just predominant.  Your
brain is a massively parallel processor of information and there are a
huge number of different frequencies present at all times at different
places.  You are looking to entrain on one to pretty much set the mood
for the others.

Our brains are also extremely complex and while some programs and
technologies can have very fast effects, I always take claims such as
"I listened for 30 seconds and had an OOBE".  Most (but not all) of
the OOBE's I've read about have been traceable as sleep paralysis, a
widely known explanation for some cases of alledged alien abduction
where the body is paralyzed and hallucinations are common.  This is
also a well known induction stage for lucid dreaming.  Brainwave
entrainment isn't a magic switch that turns on and off experiences.

Subliminals are another animal entirely.  Whereas brainwave
entrainment is a fast acting effect that lasts only until the end of
the session.  Subliminal (or paraliminal or whatever your favorite
term is) suggestions are messages that are heard (or seen) but not
consciously understood or acknowledged.  You are bombarded with them
daily in Muzak that tells you not to steal, in print ads that sell any
number of products and maybe some programs that you purchased for
yourself.

Our unconscious (or subconscious or other than conscious) mind
processes huge amounts or data at incredible speeds.  Where our
conscious mind thinks in the language we speak and is capable of
working at around 2000 words per minute(plus or minus) the unconscious
mind works in symbols and images at tens of thousands of times faster.
  For this reason, subliminals in images that use symbols are
incredibly effective.  Audio subliminals take longer but can have a
far more permanent effect.  As the messages are presented to the
unconscious mind, it works on them, regardless of how they are
presented,and figures them out.  Once enough are seen by the
unconscious to outnumber conflicting messages that have accumulated
over time, change can begin to occur.  This is why we tell people who
buy our programs that to succeed you must listen, listen, listen.  In
the car, at work, while you eat or watch TV and very importantly,
while you sleep.  While there is a finite number of messages you can
pack into a digital recording before it just becomes noise, we have
found between 12,000 and 20,000 (depending on message size) messages
per hour to per very effective.

Over the last year we have worked on a number of programs that present
either subliminals or entrainment to each side of the brain
independently and have found them to be incredibly successful.  I
found myself in the position of needing to lose around 100 lbs but at
least 60 lbs.  I was skinny as a boy though my 20's and never had to
limit what I ate.  At 6' 5", I carried it well enough but it started
catching up with me.  I developed a set of programs to help me
retrain.  I've  lost 65 lbs using this and one other program.  I'm
having no problem keeping it off or avoiding foods I really shouldn't
eat except on my cheat meal each week.  My views on food, exercise and
my weight are totally different than they were a year ago.  The
reamining 35 lbs should be gone by early summer.  This program is now
available on the website in the Split Brain section of the store and
is a good program for someone who needs to drop at least 20 lbs and
keep it off.

In closing, brainwave entrainment is useful in creating a mental state
such as relaxation or focussed concentration for a short period of
time while subliminals are usually long term behavioral changes that
take a few weeks to begin to manifest.

Hope this helps.

Dr. Richard Price
RCP Consulting
http://www.rcpconsulting.us
Check out our St. Patrick's Day  Specials and the new Massive Weight
Loss Program on our website.

Thank you Michael and for sending the file, I am out of town at the moment
but will try it when I get back.

Thanks too, to Dr. Richard Price for his advice.
I have Cool Edit Pro but I am still a klutz at working with it.
I found Generate Tone, and here it further asked me whether I would prefer
Square or other (sorry I do not have the software on this computer so I
can't remember exactly). Am I on the right track doing this or do I need to
do something else?

BTW, when I played back the bwgn file Michael made, I was surprised that I
could here it. I thought that from the discussions on this forum that I
would be unable to hear anything in the range of 190hz.

Terry

-----------
Terence O'Brien <tobjp@...> wrote:
I read in a newspaper article recently that frequencies of 18 to 20
kilohertz would ward off small animals, including cats. Does anyone have
information that would work on birds, particularly pigeons? And where can I
download or buy a range of different frequencies? I have BWGEN, could I make
my own? If so, how? I would appreciate some help with this. Thank you.

Re: Birds

-- Posted by Michael
18-20Khz? Hmm.. interesting. I'll try 190hz since I'm doubtful of the
capabilities of regular speakers. I've included a little variation
throughout the range; 190hz, 200hz, 195hz. It's 10 minutes long, though you
can set it to however long you'd like to try it for. The sound volume
doesn't have to be loud in the slightest to hear it, so I'm hoping that
it'll have at least half the effect you're looking for. Try it out and let
me know if it works!

-- Posted by:      "rickprice407"
rickprice407@...
Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:18 am        (PST)

Terry,
This works like a champ and runs the bugs off too.  This is what's behind
the ultrasonic pest controllers you see on TV and at the discount stores.
It will also drive any pets in the house insane in short order.

BWGEN is good for doing binaural beats but to just do straight tones I'd
recommend either Cool Edit/Audition if you have it or downloading Audacity
if you need a good free way to go.  Just tell it to generate a tone at
whatever you need, say 19,000 Hz for 30 min, save to a file, burn to CD and
loop where you need it.  Be sure your speakers can go that high and use a
good bit of volume since the speakers' response probably has fallen off a
good bit by then.
>Pigeons are another thing entirely.  They are filthy and also know as a
>Gutter Hawk or Sewer Falcon (among other things) and shouldn't be confused
>with their pristine cousin the dove.  There are commercial roosting spikes
>that will keep them from roosting but usually spraying a good coat
>(soaking) of WD40 where they roost does the trick.  Hang old CDs or Pie
>plates (CDs are best) in your garden to run them off.
Downside to this is that they scare off all the other birds too.
...or find a bunch of Cajuns with pellet guns and invite them over for an
all you can carry home Pigeon Hunt - that's how a church near me in Houston
got rid of an infestation back in the 70s.

Hope this helps.

Dr. Richard Price

RCP Consulting

http://www.rcpconsulting.us

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

You're on the right track in Cool Edit.  The other choices are sine
and triangle.  Choose sine since it generates fewer harmonics and is
easier on the speakers.

You should be able to hear 190 Hz.  Audible frequencies are from
around 20 - 30 Hz up to 15,000 hz or a bit more for those of us who
didn't go to a lot of concerts in our youth.

Hope this helps.

Dr. Richard Price
RCP Consulting
http://www.rcpconsulting.us
Check out our St. Patrick's Day Specials and the new Massive Weight
Loss Program on our website.

--- In bwgen@yahoogroups.com, "Terence O'Brien" <tobjp@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you Michael and for sending the file, I am out of town at the
moment
> but will try it when I get back.
>
> Thanks too, to Dr. Richard Price for his advice.
> I have Cool Edit Pro but I am still a klutz at working with it.
> I found Generate Tone, and here it further asked me whether I would
prefer
> Square or other (sorry I do not have the software on this computer so I
> can't remember exactly). Am I on the right track doing this or do I
need to
> do something else?
>
> BTW, when I played back the bwgn file Michael made, I was surprised
that I
> could here it. I thought that from the discussions on this forum that I
> would be unable to hear anything in the range of 190hz.
>
> Terry
>
> -----------
> Terence O'Brien <tobjp@...> wrote:
> I read in a newspaper article recently that frequencies of 18 to 20
> kilohertz would ward off small animals, including cats. Does anyone have
> information that would work on birds, particularly pigeons? And
where can I
> download or buy a range of different frequencies? I have BWGEN,
could I make
> my own? If so, how? I would appreciate some help with this. Thank you.
>
> Re: Birds
>
> -- Posted by Michael
> 18-20Khz? Hmm.. interesting. I'll try 190hz since I'm doubtful of the
> capabilities of regular speakers. I've included a little variation
> throughout the range; 190hz, 200hz, 195hz. It's 10 minutes long,
though you
> can set it to however long you'd like to try it for. The sound volume
> doesn't have to be loud in the slightest to hear it, so I'm hoping that
> it'll have at least half the effect you're looking for. Try it out
and let
> me know if it works!
>
> -- Posted by:      "rickprice407"
> rickprice407@...
> Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:18 am        (PST)
>
> Terry,
> This works like a champ and runs the bugs off too.  This is what's
behind
> the ultrasonic pest controllers you see on TV and at the discount
stores.
> It will also drive any pets in the house insane in short order.
>
> BWGEN is good for doing binaural beats but to just do straight tones
I'd
> recommend either Cool Edit/Audition if you have it or downloading
Audacity
> if you need a good free way to go.  Just tell it to generate a tone at
> whatever you need, say 19,000 Hz for 30 min, save to a file, burn to
CD and
> loop where you need it.  Be sure your speakers can go that high and
use a
> good bit of volume since the speakers' response probably has fallen
off a
> good bit by then.
> >Pigeons are another thing entirely.  They are filthy and also know
as a
> >Gutter Hawk or Sewer Falcon (among other things) and shouldn't be
confused
> >with their pristine cousin the dove.  There are commercial roosting
spikes
> >that will keep them from roosting but usually spraying a good coat
> >(soaking) of WD40 where they roost does the trick.  Hang old CDs or
Pie
> >plates (CDs are best) in your garden to run them off.
> Downside to this is that they scare off all the other birds too.
> ...or find a bunch of Cajuns with pellet guns and invite them over
for an
> all you can carry home Pigeon Hunt - that's how a church near me in
Houston
> got rid of an infestation back in the 70s.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Dr. Richard Price
>
> RCP Consulting
>
> http://www.rcpconsulting.us
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's
FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>

Due to the nature of isochronic tones, a square wave(of the
entrainment frequency) filled with a higher frequency tone, not very
effectively.  Consider that entrainment occurs as a response to a
rhythmic stimulus.  So if you create an isochronic tone at say 20 HZ
(beta) and an alpha one at 10 Hz, then if they are in phase with each
other your 10 Hz tone gets clobbered by every other 20 Hz cycle.  Net
result - 20 Hz.  If they are a bit out of phase, you get a syncopated
effect and may actually have better entrainment at tone1 + tone2 at 30
Hz.

Try mixing different methods to get where you want to be.
Autopanning, low pass filter modulation, amplitude modulated pulses
can be mixed effectively.

Depending on how serious you are, a small EEG is handy in watching for
entrainment.  They can be found on Ebay for under $1000.  There was a
16 channel Grass unit for $750 this morning.  That seems like overkill
but you can go with the OpenEEG stuff and have a homebuilt 4 channel
for around $400.  Hook up to an old computer, run one of the easy to
use (and read) open source apps, put the electrodes on, put on the
headphones, lay back and record what happens for 30 mins or so.  Get
up and see where the entrainment occurred.  This can be real handy,
not only for designing your own but for seeing whether or not the
presets you downloaded are real or junk.

Hope this helps.

Dr. Richard Price
RCP Consulting
http://www.rcpconsulting.us
Check out our St. Patrick's Day Specials and the new Massive Weight
Loss Program on our website.




--- In bwgen@yahoogroups.com, BLKSUPERMN@... wrote:
>
> Is it possible to listen to more than one isochronic tone at once?
If so, how
> many tones can the brain handle before there is an overload or
confusion. Any
> info would be great. Thank you.
> <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now
offers free
> email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at
> http://www.aol.com.
>

Is there a user guide or manual in pdf for bwgen?

Not that I know of.  There is a basic and advanced use section in the
help files and as far as I know that's about it.  BWGEN isn't that
hard to use and the help files and other references pretty much cover it.

Hope this helps.

Dr. Richard Price
RCP Consulting
http://www.rcpconsulting.us
Check out our St. Patrick's Day Specials and the new Massive Weight
Loss Program on our website.



--- In bwgen@yahoogroups.com, "carl" <carls_acct@...> wrote:
>
> Is there a user guide or manual in pdf for bwgen?
>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the bwgen
group.

   File        : /newwpsetup.exe
   Uploaded by : nhernan20 <nhernan20@...>
   Description : check out the newest version of wavepad

You can access this file at the URL:
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To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

nhernan20 <nhernan20@...>

Great!  Thank you.

--- In bwgen@yahoogroups.com, bwgen@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the bwgen
> group.
>
>   File        : /newwpsetup.exe
>   Uploaded by : nhernan20 <nhernan20@...>
>   Description : check out the newest version of wavepad
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bwgen/files/newwpsetup.exe
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
>
> Regards,
>
> nhernan20 <nhernan20@...>
>

I don't know if any of the original bwgen people like me are still
around, but all of this seems like one big spam-o-mercial.  If anyone
wants,YOU CAN email me, and I can tell you of a few products that I
have used (some are commercial and some are free) that you can use to
CHANGE your behaviors.  If you think of some kind of spam bot from the
future you can go and fuck yourself like captain kangaroo, as I've
been on this list for a few years now.  Its just so disappointing to
see how this has deteriated (sp is way off)...


There is NO frequency that will help a person to overcome a phobia.
End of story.  I personally think subliminals are a crock of crap.

> I get a lot of mail from people asking me what frequency should they
> use to overcome this phobia to change a certain behavior, are
> subliminal suggestions for real and a host of other questions.  Let me
> answer a few  of them here.  Lets start with definitions.




Is there any REAL proof that subliminals work.  Why not just visit a
trained therapist (hypnotist, nlp practitioner, EFT practitioner,
Timeline therapist, etc.), instead of waiting for a subliminal to take
effect, if it ever will.  So lets say subliminal recordings work, is
it really worth it to have to WAIT for it them to work.  Lets say you
end up waiting 2 months for them to work, when you could have had a
reliable therapist 'FIX YOUR PROBLEM' in a matter of only a few
sessions, if not one session.  Also, subliminals are likely to fail,
because if someone believes that they are ugly, and they are
'listening' to a subliminal recording that they are beautiful, they
are just going to go 'no I'm not'.  You need to change a belief, and
subliminals CANNOT do this.

> Subliminals are another animal entirely.  Whereas brainwave
> entrainment is a fast acting effect that lasts only until the end of
> the session.  Subliminal (or paraliminal or whatever your favorite
> term is) suggestions are messages that are heard (or seen) but not
> consciously understood or acknowledged.  You are bombarded with them
> daily in Muzak that tells you not to steal, in print ads that sell
> any number of products and maybe some programs that you purchased
> for yourself.



So 2000 words per minute.  I really doubt that you can get those into
a persons head just by listening to them.  You would need some kind of
way alread set up to 'ease' these into a persons unconscious.  While I
doubt in subliminals (exception is true silent sounds), I have a way
that I think that you may possibly be able to get words into a persons
unconcious.  I'd be willing to share, for credit of course...no money,
just credit...

> Our unconscious (or subconscious or other than conscious) mind
> processes huge amounts or data at incredible speeds.  Where our
> conscious mind thinks in the language we speak and is capable of
> working at around 2000 words per minute(plus or minus) the
> unconscious mind works in symbols and images at tens of thousands of
> times faster.


What was this other program that you used to help you to lose weight?
  This may be what really helped you.

> least 60 lbs.  I was skinny as a boy though my 20's and never had to
> limit what I ate.  At 6' 5", I carried it well enough but it started
> catching up with me.  I developed a set of programs to help me
> retrain.  I've  lost 65 lbs using this and one other program.  I'm
> having no problem keeping it off or avoiding foods I really
> shouldn't eat except on my cheat meal each week.  My views on food,
> exercise and my weight are totally different than they were a year

Antonio,

Since your tirade consisted of taking my comments out of context and
since you seem to have trouble understanding them, let me address them
one at a time.


You wrote:
> There is NO frequency that will help a person to overcome a phobia.
> End of story.  I personally think subliminals are a crock of crap.
>
> I get a lot of mail from people asking me what frequency should they
> use to overcome this phobia to change a certain behavior, are
> subliminal suggestions for real and a host of other questions.  Let
     me answer a few  of them here.  Lets start with definitions.

I agree 100%.  Note carefully that I didn't say that any frequency
would help with phobias but that I get mail from people asking about
that.  That led to a need for definitions.  You are free to have
whatever opinions you want.


You wrote:

> Is there any REAL proof that subliminals work.

Yes.  Many large retailers successfully use them behind their music to
help deter shoplifting.  This is also usually vigorously denied to
avoid mind control paranoia.  I personally know people who have used
them to help change any number of behaviors.

You wrote:

>Why not just visit a
> trained therapist (hypnotist, nlp practitioner, EFT practitioner,
> Timeline therapist, etc.), instead of waiting for a subliminal to
>take effect, if it ever will.

Antonio, apparently you are independently wealthy and don't mind
shelling out $50 to $100 or more per hour for hypnosis that may or may
not be effective.  Some people are extremely hard to put into trance
using traditional methods.  As an NLP Practitioner I know that some
deep seated issues may take many sessions to see results with.

Most of our programs are $20 - 25 each and you get to keep them.
Subliminals are NOT hypnosis, NLP or other technology.  They do not
induce or require a trance state.


You wrote:

>So lets say subliminal recordings work, is
> it really worth it to have to WAIT for it them to work.  Lets say you
> end up waiting 2 months for them to work, when you could have had a
> reliable therapist 'FIX YOUR PROBLEM' in a matter of only a few
> sessions, if not one session.

We get back to the hard to hypnotize and economics issues here.

You wrote:

> Also, subliminals are likely to fail,
> because if someone believes that they are ugly, and they are
> 'listening' to a subliminal recording that they are beautiful, they
> are just going to go 'no I'm not'.  You need to change a belief, and
> subliminals CANNOT do this.

Here is where you seem to have a problem understanding the conscious
and unconscious mind.  Subliminals have a tendency to fail because
they don't get listened to.  Just having them doesn't do any good
until you put them in a CD player and let them loop as a background
noise.  Great for sleeping to.
Long standing beliefs are changed by gradually telling the unconscious
mind the desired outcome.  Once the unconscious mind is presented with
more evidence that the desired outcome is true then change can begin
to happen in the conscious mind.  How do you think the beliefs got
there in the first place?  Being told over and over that 'you're ugly'
or you're stupid'.  The conscious mind loves the status quo and
resists change.  This is why people continue with dangerous and
destructive habits even thought they understand the problem in the
conscious mind.

You wrote:

> So 2000 words per minute.  I really doubt that you can get those into
> a persons head just by listening to them.  You would need some kind >of
> way alread set up to 'ease' these into a persons unconscious.  While I
> doubt in subliminals (exception is true silent sounds), I have a way
> that I think that you may possibly be able to get words into a persons
> unconcious.  I'd be willing to share, for credit of course...no money,
> just credit...
>
> > Our unconscious (or subconscious or other than conscious) mind
> > processes huge amounts or data at incredible speeds.  Where our
> > conscious mind thinks in the language we speak and is capable of
> > working at around 2000 words per minute(plus or minus) the
> > unconscious mind works in symbols and images at tens of thousands
> > > of times faster.

Our conscious mind does indeed work in a language based format and at
about 2000 words per minute.  I did not say that you can understand
words coming at you at 2000 words per minute.  This is how fast most
of us can think...some people may be much slower.  The unconscious
works at incredible speeds and works in patterns, symbols and images
more than words.  It understands words and can decipher the patterns
in subliminals as words.  This is why techniques like photoreading
work so well.  The unconscious mind just needs a snapshot image of the
pages to decipher all of the words and meanings.  Such is the same
with audio and visual subliminals.  'True Silent Subliminals', I
assume you are talking about Dr. Lowry's method of raising the audio
floor of the suggestion to around 15+ KHz, are no more effective than
many other methods and less in many people.  While show to be usable
with the profoundly deaf, it is likely they were more felt than heard,
requiring serious amplitude.  Most consumer grade electronics also
have a severe falloff at these frequencies as well.  And for those of
us with industrial or loud music caused nerve deafness, those
frequencies simply do not exist anymore.

You wrote:

> What was this other program that you used to help you to lose weight?
>  This may be what really helped you.
> > least 60 lbs.  I was skinny as a boy though my 20's and never had
> > to limit what I ate.  At 6' 5", I carried it well enough but it
started
> > catching up with me.  I developed a set of programs to help me
> > retrain.  I've  lost 65 lbs using this and one other program.  I'm
> > having no problem keeping it off or avoiding foods I really
> > shouldn't eat except on my cheat meal each week.  My views on food,
> > exercise and my weight are totally different than they were a year

Sorry to burst a bubble here but the program is another commercial
subliminal program that we purchased rights to.  I've used subliminals
and brainwave entrainment for over 30 years and have seen the results
when used correctly and consistently.  We let people know up front
that there are 3 rules to succeeding with the subliminal programs they
purchase; Listen, Listen, LISTEN.  I've said before that I listen to
programs about 22 hours a day.  When I sleep, in my office, in the
car, on my MP3 player, during workouts.  They run in the backgoround
and your conscious mind tunes them out.  Buy them a player and let
them loop constantly.  Dont trust the conscious mind to remember to
turn them on - it doesn't like change.
As for hypnosis, I have and do use it, induced and self.  We are
releasing a line of self hypnosis titles that use brainwave
entrainment to help ease a person into trance.  NLP?  Been a fan ever
since I first listened to Richard Bandler many years ago and a
practitioner soon after.  Used together, these techniques and
technologies have a synergy that can literally work miracles in
changing behaviors and beliefs.

Hope that helped clear things up.

Dr. Richard Price
RCP Consulting
http://www.rcpconsulting.us
Check out our St. Patrick's Day Specials and the new Massive Weight
Loss Program on our website.

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
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nhernan20 <nhernan20@...>

For  the  "show me I'm from Missouri"  types out there who
adamantly claim that it is impossible to use ultrasonic frequencies
to encode subliminal suggestions I  have uploaded an example that I
have constructed that illustrates what may be possible. The
modulated ultrasound audio can be dissected with a spectrum analyser
to confirm that it is actually a signal at the top of the audible
frequency band. Nevertheless, you can clearly make out the modulated
content by listening to it through headphones.
  Because of the transcoding of the information into a higher
frequency band, it is now possible to mask the signal without
destroying it (a form of frequency division multiplexing). I have
provided two examples of signals that might be mixed with the
modulated carrier (In neither case have I attempted to totally
conceal the original signal).
  Note that I have never ever suggested that ultrasound could be used
for mass hypnosis: from my own experience, the subject has to be in
a receptive state of consciousness in order for any type of hypnotic
suggestion to work.
   Anyhow, in conclusion, you are invited to experiment freely with
these files. If there is interest I will post the circuit diagram of
the modulator so others can make their own ultrasonic subliminals
for their own use or for public dissemination.Bye for now

Excellent debate! Thanks to you both.
  scarlett, longtime member, intermittent lurker only for some years





--- In bwgen@yahoogroups.com, "rickprice407" <rickprice407@...> wrote:
>
> Antonio,
>
> Since your tirade consisted of taking my comments out of context and
> since you seem to have trouble understanding them, let me address them
> one at a time.
>
>
> You wrote:
> > There is NO frequency that will help a person to overcome a phobia.
> > End of story.  I personally think subliminals are a crock of crap.
> >
> > I get a lot of mail from people asking me what frequency should they
> > use to overcome this phobia to change a certain behavior, are
> > subliminal suggestions for real and a host of other questions.  Let
>     me answer a few  of them here.  Lets start with definitions.
>
> I agree 100%.  Note carefully that I didn't say that any frequency
> would help with phobias but that I get mail from people asking about
> that.  That led to a need for definitions.  You are free to have
> whatever opinions you want.
>
>
> You wrote:
>
> > Is there any REAL proof that subliminals work.
>
> Yes.  Many large retailers successfully use them behind their music to
> help deter shoplifting.  This is also usually vigorously denied to
> avoid mind control paranoia.  I personally know people who have used
> them to help change any number of behaviors.
>
> You wrote:
>
> >Why not just visit a
> > trained therapist (hypnotist, nlp practitioner, EFT practitioner,
> > Timeline therapist, etc.), instead of waiting for a subliminal to
> >take effect, if it ever will.
>
> Antonio, apparently you are independently wealthy and don't mind
> shelling out $50 to $100 or more per hour for hypnosis that may or may
> not be effective.  Some people are extremely hard to put into trance
> using traditional methods.  As an NLP Practitioner I know that some
> deep seated issues may take many sessions to see results with.
>
> Most of our programs are $20 - 25 each and you get to keep them.
> Subliminals are NOT hypnosis, NLP or other technology.  They do not
> induce or require a trance state.
>
>
> You wrote:
>
> >So lets say subliminal recordings work, is
> > it really worth it to have to WAIT for it them to work.  Lets say you
> > end up waiting 2 months for them to work, when you could have had a
> > reliable therapist 'FIX YOUR PROBLEM' in a matter of only a few
> > sessions, if not one session.
>
> We get back to the hard to hypnotize and economics issues here.
>
> You wrote:
>
> > Also, subliminals are likely to fail,
> > because if someone believes that they are ugly, and they are
> > 'listening' to a subliminal recording that they are beautiful, they
> > are just going to go 'no I'm not'.  You need to change a belief, and
> > subliminals CANNOT do this.
>
> Here is where you seem to have a problem understanding the conscious
> and unconscious mind.  Subliminals have a tendency to fail because
> they don't get listened to.  Just having them doesn't do any good
> until you put them in a CD player and let them loop as a background
> noise.  Great for sleeping to.
> Long standing beliefs are changed by gradually telling the unconscious
> mind the desired outcome.  Once the unconscious mind is presented with
> more evidence that the desired outcome is true then change can begin
> to happen in the conscious mind.  How do you think the beliefs got
> there in the first place?  Being told over and over that 'you're ugly'
> or you're stupid'.  The conscious mind loves the status quo and
> resists change.  This is why people continue with dangerous and
> destructive habits even thought they understand the problem in the
> conscious mind.
>
> You wrote:
>
> > So 2000 words per minute.  I really doubt that you can get those into
> > a persons head just by listening to them.  You would need some
kind >of
> > way alread set up to 'ease' these into a persons unconscious.  While I
> > doubt in subliminals (exception is true silent sounds), I have a way
> > that I think that you may possibly be able to get words into a persons
> > unconcious.  I'd be willing to share, for credit of course...no money,
> > just credit...
> >
> > > Our unconscious (or subconscious or other than conscious) mind
> > > processes huge amounts or data at incredible speeds.  Where our
> > > conscious mind thinks in the language we speak and is capable of
> > > working at around 2000 words per minute(plus or minus) the
> > > unconscious mind works in symbols and images at tens of thousands
> > > > of times faster.
>
> Our conscious mind does indeed work in a language based format and at
> about 2000 words per minute.  I did not say that you can understand
> words coming at you at 2000 words per minute.  This is how fast most
> of us can think...some people may be much slower.  The unconscious
> works at incredible speeds and works in patterns, symbols and images
> more than words.  It understands words and can decipher the patterns
> in subliminals as words.  This is why techniques like photoreading
> work so well.  The unconscious mind just needs a snapshot image of the
> pages to decipher all of the words and meanings.  Such is the same
> with audio and visual subliminals.  'True Silent Subliminals', I
> assume you are talking about Dr. Lowry's method of raising the audio
> floor of the suggestion to around 15+ KHz, are no more effective than
> many other methods and less in many people.  While show to be usable
> with the profoundly deaf, it is likely they were more felt than heard,
> requiring serious amplitude.  Most consumer grade electronics also
> have a severe falloff at these frequencies as well.  And for those of
> us with industrial or loud music caused nerve deafness, those
> frequencies simply do not exist anymore.
>
> You wrote:
>
> > What was this other program that you used to help you to lose weight?
> >  This may be what really helped you.
> > > least 60 lbs.  I was skinny as a boy though my 20's and never had
> > > to limit what I ate.  At 6' 5", I carried it well enough but it
> started
> > > catching up with me.  I developed a set of programs to help me
> > > retrain.  I've  lost 65 lbs using this and one other program.  I'm
> > > having no problem keeping it off or avoiding foods I really
> > > shouldn't eat except on my cheat meal each week.  My views on food,
> > > exercise and my weight are totally different than they were a year
>
> Sorry to burst a bubble here but the program is another commercial
> subliminal program that we purchased rights to.  I've used subliminals
> and brainwave entrainment for over 30 years and have seen the results
> when used correctly and consistently.  We let people know up front
> that there are 3 rules to succeeding with the subliminal programs they
> purchase; Listen, Listen, LISTEN.  I've said before that I listen to
> programs about 22 hours a day.  When I sleep, in my office, in the
> car, on my MP3 player, during workouts.  They run in the backgoround
> and your conscious mind tunes them out.  Buy them a player and let
> them loop constantly.  Dont trust the conscious mind to remember to
> turn them on - it doesn't like change.
> As for hypnosis, I have and do use it, induced and self.  We are
> releasing a line of self hypnosis titles that use brainwave
> entrainment to help ease a person into trance.  NLP?  Been a fan ever
> since I first listened to Richard Bandler many years ago and a
> practitioner soon after.  Used together, these techniques and
> technologies have a synergy that can literally work miracles in
> changing behaviors and beliefs.
>
> Hope that helped clear things up.
>
> Dr. Richard Price
> RCP Consulting
> http://www.rcpconsulting.us
> Check out our St. Patrick's Day Specials and the new Massive Weight
> Loss Program on our website.
>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the bwgen
group.

   File        : /modulator.zip
   Uploaded by : nhernan20 <nhernan20@...>
   Description : circuit diagram of 15khz FM modulator

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bwgen/files/modulator.zip

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

nhernan20 <nhernan20@...>

I  have uploaded the schematic of the 15khz  FM modulator that I
have devised. It is a simple minimal parts count design based on the
XR8038 "precision waveform generator." Further details  are contained
in the doc file in the archive.

--- In bwgen@yahoogroups.com, "rickprice407" <rickprice407@...> wrote:
>
> Antonio,
>
> Since your tirade consisted of taking my comments out of context and
> since you seem to have trouble understanding them, let me address them
> one at a time.


Does this absolutely mean that they work.  I would like to see hard
science, and not soft science, that subliminals actually work (mainly
audio).  Visual might be a little different.

> Yes.  Many large retailers successfully use them behind their music to
> help deter shoplifting.  This is also usually vigorously denied to
> avoid mind control paranoia.  I personally know people who have used
> them to help change any number of behaviors.


Thats why you do research into their credentials.  Or you find an
organization that has a database of hypnotherapists, and you ask around.

> Antonio, apparently you are independently wealthy and don't mind
> shelling out $50 to $100 or more per hour for hypnosis that may or may
> not be effective.  Some people are extremely hard to put into trance
> using traditional methods.  As an NLP Practitioner I know that some
> deep seated issues may take many sessions to see results with.
>
> Most of our programs are $20 - 25 each and you get to keep them.
> Subliminals are NOT hypnosis, NLP or other technology.  They do not
> induce or require a trance state.



> >So lets say subliminal recordings work, is
> > it really worth it to have to WAIT for it them to work.  Lets say you
> > end up waiting 2 months for them to work, when you could have had a
> > reliable therapist 'FIX YOUR PROBLEM' in a matter of only a few
> > sessions, if not one session.
>
> We get back to the hard to hypnotize and economics issues here.

But isn't it ludicrious to pay 25$ and wait for weeks if not months
(if they really work, and its not just placebo), when you can pay 50
to 100$ to fix a problem that day, or at least alleviate a lot of the
symptoms.


There is still no proof that audio subliminals work - none, except for
your proof Dr.

> Here is where you seem to have a problem understanding the conscious
> and unconscious mind.  Subliminals have a tendency to fail because
> they don't get listened to.  Just having them doesn't do any good
> until you put them in a CD player and let them loop as a background
> noise.  Great for sleeping to.
> Long standing beliefs are changed by gradually telling the unconscious
> mind the desired outcome.  Once the unconscious mind is presented with
> more evidence that the desired outcome is true then change can begin
> to happen in the conscious mind.  How do you think the beliefs got
> there in the first place?  Being told over and over that 'you're ugly'
> or you're stupid'.  The conscious mind loves the status quo and
> resists change.  This is why people continue with dangerous and
> destructive habits even thought they understand the problem in the
> conscious mind.
>
> You wrote:
>
> > So 2000 words per minute.  I really doubt that you can get those into
> > a persons head just by listening to them.  You would need some
kind >of
> > way alread set up to 'ease' these into a persons unconscious.  While I
> > doubt in subliminals (exception is true silent sounds), I have a way
> > that I think that you may possibly be able to get words into a persons
> > unconcious.  I'd be willing to share, for credit of course...no money,
> > just credit...
> >
> > > Our unconscious (or subconscious or other than conscious) mind
> > > processes huge amounts or data at incredible speeds.  Where our
> > > conscious mind thinks in the language we speak and is capable of
> > > working at around 2000 words per minute(plus or minus) the
> > > unconscious mind works in symbols and images at tens of thousands
> > > > of times faster.
>
> Our conscious mind does indeed work in a language based format and at
> about 2000 words per minute.  I did not say that you can understand
> words coming at you at 2000 words per minute.  This is how fast most
> of us can think...some people may be much slower.  The unconscious
> works at incredible speeds and works in patterns, symbols and images
> more than words.  It understands words and can decipher the patterns
> in subliminals as words.  This is why techniques like photoreading
> work so well.  The unconscious mind just needs a snapshot image of the
> pages to decipher all of the words and meanings.  Such is the same
> with audio and visual subliminals.  'True Silent Subliminals', I
> assume you are talking about Dr. Lowry's method of raising the audio
> floor of the suggestion to around 15+ KHz, are no more effective than
> many other methods and less in many people.  While show to be usable
> with the profoundly deaf, it is likely they were more felt than heard,
> requiring serious amplitude.  Most consumer grade electronics also
> have a severe falloff at these frequencies as well.  And for those of
> us with industrial or loud music caused nerve deafness, those
> frequencies simply do not exist anymore.

Thats where you are wrong, and not telling the full truth.  For TRUE
silent sounds, you are not per say listening to anything.  True silent
sounds are delivered via a ultrasonic transducer.  Just encoding some
suggestions into the upper 15khz band is only half of it.  Why even
bother when headphones cannot deliver this to your skull.  It works
via vibration, and headphones cannot do this...

I was talking about a method entirely different.  Using a kind of
embedded command.


So you have to listen to these constantly.  This seems kind of
redundant.  Also, what about the placebo effect.  Year ago Bandler
mentioned in his book 'Time for a Change' that him and a colleague
decided to test subliminal recordings.  They told the subjects that
these subliminal tapes would induce states of deep relaxation, etc.
In reality what they had done was put in messages that would freak
people out, messages that would cause panic, etc.  Guess what the
people did, they relaxed completely.

> purchase; Listen, Listen, LISTEN.  I've said before that I listen to
> programs about 22 hours a day.  When I sleep, in my office, in the
> car, on my MP3 player, during workouts.  They run in the backgoround
> and your conscious mind tunes them out.  Buy them a player and let
> them loop constantly.  Dont trust the conscious mind to remember to
> turn them on - it doesn't like change.


Hypnosis tapes for the majority are such shit.  A hypnosis session has
to be tailored for each individual person.  You have to take into
account their main modality (visual, audial, kino).  You need to be
able to calibrate them, see if their going under, etc.

> As for hypnosis, I have and do use it, induced and self.  We are
> releasing a line of self hypnosis titles that use brainwave
> entrainment to help ease a person into trance.  NLP?  Been a fan ever
> since I first listened to Richard Bandler many years ago and a
> practitioner soon after.  Used together, these techniques and
> technologies have a synergy that can literally work miracles in
> changing behaviors and beliefs.

Antonio,

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the effectiveness of
subliminals.  We seem to agree to some extent on hypnosis, however it
doesn't work for everyone.  I know people who are moderate to extreme
type A personalities and some control freaks who cannot be hypnotized.
  Their conscious mind is not willing to drop the shield long enough to
go into trance.  These same people have phenomenal success with
subliminals.  Their money would be wasted no matter what the hynotists
credentials are.

As far as Bandler's study, I researched it more than was printed in
his book and I can only say this; Follow the Money.  Bandler is NLP.
Totally NLP.  Not hypnosis (although it grew from Ericson's work), not
brainwave entrainment, not subliminals...just NLP.  I would expect the
study to prove his point.  Ask these questions; length on the study
and the sessions including total time of exposure, method of embedding
the subliminals and the level at which they were presented with the
respect to the sound mask, number of affirmations per minute (too high
and they become noise), type of sound mask (surf, rain, people
screaming, buzz saw...makes a difference).  Bandler's study wasn't to
prove whether or not subliminals work but to 'prove' that a competing
technology was inferior to his and could be ignored.  NLP works and
I've been a practitioner for years, however like hypnosis, it doesn't
work for everyone.  If you understand anchoring and don't trust the
person or really don't want change, it won't happen.  Many of us have
seen Tony Robbins use anchoring to 'cure' a woman's fear of snakes in
just a few minutes.  She wanted change and trusted him to do it.  It
happened on stage.  Still needs to be reinforced but it can happen
like that.  Just getting to that point can take multiple sessions with
some people.

Subliminals work in my life, the life of my family and friends, our
clients and many others.  I'm sorry they don't for you.  You may have
a poorly made program, not be listening to it, or have issues so
deeply rooted they may take a long time to overcome.  If you have a
new idea on ways to present subliminals to the unconscious mind then
by all means, share it.  Post it here or email it to me.  If it works
and is original, I would have no problem giving recognition where due.
The brain is far more powerful and resourceful than you give it credit
for and there are many tools we can use to help us change what has
been done to us into what we need to live our lives as we want to.

Dr. Richard Price
RCP Consulting
http://www.rcpconsulting.us
Check out our St. Patrick's Day Specials and the new Massive Weight
Loss Program on our website.

I  have  recently come to the realization that all the discussion
about methods of influencing the subconscious seem to have ignored the
most important channell for  the opening up of the subconscious
faculties: the sense of smell.
   I became aware of this when I looked back at the techniques that the
ancients used in all their healing and purification practices. They
were aware of how much odours and fragrances influence the emotions
and therefore allow for the opening up of a pathway into  the
unconscious mind. They may have spoken of their methods in mystical
terms, attributing the effects of incense burning and other practices
to  spirits and supernatural entities, but science now has shown just
how deeply  olfactory stimulation can alter fundamental processes in
the brain and body.
   If there is any one out there who has had any experience in this
particular area their contributions would be greatly appreciated.

Smell, as well as any of our senses have very strong links to the
unconscious mind.  There are certain smells or the way the light hits
me that can trigger memories I have of a particular late summer
afternoon the summer I graduated high school or a certain Sunday
afternoon when I was six at my grandmother's house.  Nothing
particularly noteworthy about either event but I have particularly
strong and vivid recollections at times.  The sights, smells,
temperature of the air, even my mood; I can experience them all for a
moment.

NLP has long used non-verbal cues for anchoring although they are
mostly visual or tactile.  Since the unconscious mind isn't limited by
language constraints, non-verbal cues can be extremely strong.  Most
of us are almost unaware of our unconscious at work.  When someone
says 'Christmas', do you immediately get a flood of descriptive
phrases describing your feelings toward that word or do you get
snapshots of past events surrounding it with the sounds, smells and
feelings (tactile and emotional) that shaped your current feeling
toward it, positive or negative.

Very perceptive on your part.

Dr. Richard Price
RCP Consulting
http://www.rcpconsulting.us
Check out our St. Patrick's Day Specials and the new Massive Weight
Loss Program on our website.



--- In bwgen@yahoogroups.com, "nhernan20" <nhernan20@...> wrote:
>
>  I  have  recently come to the realization that all the discussion
> about methods of influencing the subconscious seem to have ignored the
> most important channell for  the opening up of the subconscious
> faculties: the sense of smell.
>   I became aware of this when I looked back at the techniques that the
> ancients used in all their healing and purification practices. They
> were aware of how much odours and fragrances influence the emotions
> and therefore allow for the opening up of a pathway into  the
> unconscious mind. They may have spoken of their methods in mystical
> terms, attributing the effects of incense burning and other practices
> to  spirits and supernatural entities, but science now has shown just
> how deeply  olfactory stimulation can alter fundamental processes in
> the brain and body.
>   If there is any one out there who has had any experience in this
> particular area their contributions would be greatly appreciated.
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Antonio

To: bwgen@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:22 PM

Subject: [bwgen] Re: Brainwave Entrainment and Subliminal Basics

I don't know if any of the original bwgen people like me are still
around, but all of this seems like one big spam-o-mercial. If anyone
wants,YOU CAN email me, and I can tell you of a few products that I
have used (some are commercial and some are free) that you can use to
CHANGE your behaviors. If you think of some kind of spam bot from the
future you can go and fuck yourself like captain kangaroo, as I've
been on this list for a few years now. Its just so disappointing to
see how this has deteriated (sp is way off)...

There is NO frequency that will help a person to overcome a phobia.
End of story. I personally think subliminals are a crock of crap.

> I get a lot of mail from people asking me what frequency should they
> use to overcome this phobia to change a certain behavior, are
> subliminal suggestions for real and a host of other questions. Let me
> answer a few of them here. Lets start with definitions.

Is there any REAL proof that subliminals work. Why not just visit a
trained therapist (hypnotist, nlp practitioner, EFT practitioner,
Timeline therapist, etc.), instead of waiting for a subliminal to take
effect, if it ever will. So lets say subliminal recordings work, is
it really worth it to have to WAIT for it them to work. Lets say you
end up waiting 2 months for them to work, when you could have had a
reliable therapist 'FIX YOUR PROBLEM' in a matter of only a few
sessions, if not one session. Also, subliminals are likely to fail,
because if someone believes that they are ugly, and they are
'listening' to a subliminal recording that they are beautiful, they
are just going to go 'no I'm not'. You need to change a belief, and
subliminals CANNOT do this.

> Subliminals are another animal entirely. Whereas brainwave
> entrainment is a fast acting effect that lasts only until the end of
> the session. Subliminal (or paraliminal or whatever your favorite
> term is) suggestions are messages that are heard (or seen) but not
> consciously understood or acknowledged. You are bombarded with them
> daily in Muzak that tells you not to steal, in print ads that sell
> any number of products and maybe some programs that you purchased
> for yourself.

So 2000 words per minute. I really doubt that you can get those into
a persons head just by listening to them. You would need some kind of
way alread set up to 'ease' these into a persons unconscious. While I
doubt in subliminals (exception is true silent sounds), I have a way
that I think that you may possibly be able to get words into a persons
unconcious. I'd be willing to share, for credit of course...no money,
just credit...

> Our unconscious (or subconscious or other than conscious) mind
> processes huge amounts or data at incredible speeds. Where our
> conscious mind thinks in the language we speak and is capable of
> working at around 2000 words per minute(plus or minus) the
> unconscious mind works in symbols and images at tens of thousands of
> times faster.

What was this other program that you used to help you to lose weight?
This may be what really helped you.

> least 60 lbs. I was skinny as a boy though my 20's and never had to
> limit what I ate. At 6' 5", I carried it well enough but it started
> catching up with me. I developed a set of programs to help me
> retrain. I've lost 65 lbs using this and one other program. I'm
> having no problem keeping it off or avoiding foods I really
> shouldn't eat except on my cheat meal each week. My views on food,
> exercise and my weight are totally different than they were a year

To all of you hucksters and fraudsters on here...all I've got to say
is SHAME ON YOU.  I've been here since like 2003 or before.  This is
the first message that I've found of mine on here.
(http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/bwgen/message/5814

I've been on this list from, not the beginning, but damn close to.
I've never tried to sell anything on here or push an agenda (unlike
some certain Doctors/snake oil salesmen).  Alls I've got to say is
shame on you.  Hucksters beware, I'm coming for you.  If anyone wants
to find good and honest ways to change behaviors, email me, and I will
tell you of a commerical program that I've been using that has given
me great fucking results.  I won't name the product here, out of
respect for the creator of bwgen (noromas).

To all of you fraudsters and hucksters trying to sell their own shit
on here - fuck you, and you know who you are.

Also, if anyone on here thinks that subliminals work, then they will
work, I guess, because of a placebo effect.  If you're looking for
something that will work, then email me.  I know of 2 ways to change
unwanted behaviors.  One way is through eft (emotional freedom
technique - which you can find freely on
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=magnustapping).  The other way is
commerical.

All of you so called Doctors need to step back and let the people that
truly want to help to step forward.

Thanks for replying to this.

> Antonio,
>
> I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the effectiveness of
> subliminals.  We seem to agree to some extent on hypnosis, however
it doesn't work for everyone.  I know people who are moderate to
extreme type A personalities and some control freaks who cannot be
hypnotized.

This is a load of crap.  Everyone - EVERYONE can be hypnotized.  About
people that are control freaks, you just have to find a lever to use.
  If someone is a control freak/over anaylitcal, use ericksonian
hypnosis (indirect hypnosis).

> Their conscious mind is not willing to drop the shield long enough
> to go into trance.  These same people have phenomenal success with
> subliminals.  Their money would be wasted no matter what the
> hynotists credentials are.

This just seems like another way for you to sell your subliminal
products.  If someone is willing to go to a hypnotherapist, then their
conscious mind is already thinking "hey this stuff probably works...",
so it takes out half of the work for the hypnotherapist - how do you
think stage hypnotist can get away with half of their stuff.  When
someone volunteers for a stage hypnotist, they are PRESUPPOSING that
hypnosis works, and...well you get the point...

Ok, everyone reading this, have you ever been watching a tv program
that you loved so much, that you got so involved in, that you just
lose track of time...or...if you're driving on the highway...and you
find yourself asking yourself "did I pass my exit..."...or..."how did
I get here"...or have you ever gotten so involved in a book that
suddenly you realized [insert here]...if so...then you can be
hypnotized...



> As far as Bandler's study, I researched it more than was printed in
> his book and I can only say this; Follow the Money.  Bandler is NLP.
> Totally NLP.  Not hypnosis (although it grew from Ericson's work)
its also grew from Virgina Satir, fritz Perl, etc.

NLP is basically hypnosis...and hypnosis is NLP.  NLP is/was not
anything new.


> not brainwave entrainment, not subliminals...just NLP.  I would
> expect the study to prove his point.  Ask these questions; length on
> the study and the sessions including total time of exposure, method
> of embedding the subliminals and the level at which they were
> presented with the respect to the sound mask, number of affirmations
> per minute (too high and they become noise), type of sound mask
> (surf, rain, people screaming, buzz saw...makes a difference).
> Bandler's study wasn't to prove whether or not subliminals work but
> to 'prove' that a competing
> technology was inferior to his and could be ignored.  NLP works and
> I've been a practitioner for years, however like hypnosis, it
> doesn't work for everyone.

Thats a crock of shit.  Lets say for example, a client goes to see his
shrink, but the shrink doesn't have the necessary tools (nlp, hypnosis
, EFT, timeline therapy, etc...etc...etc), the shrink can just say
"they are resistant"...etc...etc..  Basically a therapist can take the
blame off of themselves for not having the necessary skills to induce
a change by saying those 3 magical workds "they are resistant".


> If you understand anchoring and don't trust the person or really
> don't want change, it won't happen.  Many of us have seen Tony
> Robbins use anchoring to 'cure' a woman's fear of snakes in
> just a few minutes.  She wanted change and trusted him to do it.  It
> happened on stage.  Still needs to be reinforced but it can happen
> like that.  Just getting to that point can take multiple sessions >
> with some people.
>

About trusting people, its um...whats it called...oh yeah its called
rapport.  You should have learned that skill right off the bat in any
kind of formal training.  If you cannot gain positive rapport with
someone, then what do you expect.  Basically if a therapist cannot
gain rapport with a client, they can always use the excuse of "they
are..." (You finished that last statement, because you know what I was
going to say before I said it...)

Aha!!! I've also proved that hypnosis work just now.  I wanted you to
think of that word that finishes up "They are..." and you finished it
up...I basically used a presupposition to prove my own point.

> Subliminals work in my life, the life of my family and friends, our
> clients and many others.  I'm sorry they don't for you.  You may
> have a poorly made program, not be listening to it, or have issues
> so deeply rooted they may take a long time to overcome.  If you have
> a new idea on ways to present subliminals to the unconscious mind >
> then by all means, share it.  Post it here or email it to me.

Here is my formula (It would be way better to make it individualized
for each client.)  The best way would be to make a hypnosis track
utilizing metahpors.  During the story or the induction, you could do
it like this...

example - person wants to grow up...

"so this forrest of trance formations...has many things to offer...I'm
sure YOU...can BECOME AWARE...of...blah...blah...blah..."

Thats how you offer the suggestions.  You offer them as embedded
commands, and not subliminals.  Embedded commands work, subliminals
don't.  End of story.


I'm done with hucksters on this list.  I will do my best to drive the
hucksters and fraudsters out of this list.  Anyone else with me, or am
I one of the only originals left?

Greetings again!

2. A piece of positive...

You can use affirmations and
suggestions that may really work.

2.1. Just listen to the audible
affirmation constantly, whatever you
are doing, reading, writing or
doing anything else. In time, you
will stop notice these
affirmations and they will stop
irritate you - you will listen
them with half an ear, that is
you will perceive them
half-consciously,
half-unconsciously.

2.2. Any audible message, that
you hear just before you fall
asleep or straight after you get
up or even during sleeping, has a
hypnotic effect. Turn on your
audiomessages when you go to bed.
Or use them as a melody in your
alarm-clock. For example, some
great military leader telled his
adjutant to wake him up with
words "Get up, sir! You are the
best commander ever born! The
greatest victories are waiting
for you!" One ancient inventor
telled his servant to wake him up
with the following phrase: "Get
up for the greatest achievements,
discoveries and scientific
triumphs!"

2.3. You can use such
affirmations with specific
brainwave sounds. All the
affirmations must be well audible.
You must understand the message,
when you concentrate on it. Use
brainwave sounds (binaurals or
rhythmic sounds) so that you
enter the specific state of mind
(alpha, delta, theta).

Some interesting questions appear from
here.

2.4. There are several variants
of any affirmation.

2.4.1. I am a great optimist.
(1st person).

2.4.2. John Smith is a great
optimist. Or: Joe is a great
optimist. (2nd person).

2.4.3. Joe! You are a great
optimist. (3rd person).

What is the most effective? I
don't know.

On this point hypnotists disagree.
Some people think that it depends
on the person (1st or 3rd) the
man uses in self-talk. Others say
that combining all the persons is
the best way.

Here's one of my suppositions.

(a) As usual, children under 2-3
years old never say "I", while
talking of themselves. Little
Mike doesn't say "I am drawing
an elephant, I am playing". He
says "Mike is drawing an elephant,
Mike is playing". The child
doesn't mark himself out of the
world. (b) The brain of children
under 2-3 years produces extreme
amount of low delta waves.

Out of (a) and (b) comes (c).
When using affirmation with the
sound stimulating low delta waves,
it is preferable to use variant
2.4.2. "Joe is an extremely
cheerful person". The man in
delta mode as though returns into
childlike state of mind and childhood
is time of programming of our
mind. Using affirmations in delta
mode is a method of reprogramming
your mind.

Another supposition. The child
under 2-3 years old has no
I-conception or I-image. So it
should be ineffective to use
affirmations of the 1st person
("I am an optimist") in
conjunction with delta beats.

2.5. In some armies they drill
the mind of the recruit in the
following way. The sergeant bawls:
"Private Jones! You are a super
soldier! You are the superior
fighting maching!" And private
Jones repeats: "I am a super
soldier! I am the superior
fighting machine!" The sergeant
bawls: "Private Jones! Who are
you? What are you?" The recruit
bawls in response: "I am a super
soldier! I am the superior
fighting machine!" The sergeant
bawls: "Private Jones! Are you
the superior fighting machine?"
Private Jones bawls again: "Yes,
sir! I am the superior fighting
machine".

I didn't invented it. I have seen
it in the film about chinese army.

Well, share your own guess-work
and
experience, please.

--

Hi, Antonio and all!

Negative.

1.1. I partly agree with you. My
personal experience and serious
researchers (not Mr.Bandler and
Co., who succeed in praising
themselves and their own
hypothesis) are shrieking -
"So-called subliminal messages
have no influence on human mind!".
Try, for instance, an excellent
book "The epoch of propaganda" by
A. Pratkanis and E.Aronson. These
psychologists gathered a great
deal of information concerning
methods of influencing on
people's mind.

I say again. Subliminal messages
(both audio and visual ones)
produce no effect at all! They
are just a myth! Silent scripts
produce no effect - it is stated
in research laboratories of
universities. Sellers of
subliminal tapes are frauds and
liars. Independent scientists
(not those who are engaged in the
subliminal industry) ran so many
experiments proving total
inefficiency of subliminal
messages that I'm very surprised
that products of that kind are
still
selled. Maybe, because
producers of subliminal messages
and real psychologists live in
different worlds? Or, perhaps,
sellers of subliminals dupe more
and more and more neophytes and
newbies who
never visited a university
library?

And again: subliminal
messages of all types are the widely
advertised dellusion (or
self-delusion for some people).
It is
experimentally tested. It is
scientifically proved in
scientifically set experiments.

1.2. Moreover, as venerable
"psychguy7995" wrote in this
group on 28 Jul
2005 and 29 Jul 2005, "the
inventor of the term "subliminal
messages". James Vicary,
was a marketing agent and has admitted that his findings were
fabricated".

1.3. Subliminals don't work in
education. If you listen to the
audiomessage sped up so that your
conscious mind doesn't perceive
information, your subconscious
mind doesn't perceive information
either. You may be sure! All
attempts to use such subliminals
in studying are ingnominious
failure.

1.4. The simplest experiment.
Let's take the subliminal message
"Gugavility is a girl" or the
like. Let's treat a group of
volunteers with the subliminal
message. For hours, days, months,
years!
Let's ask the group a simple
question. "Who is Gugavility?"
Choice A. Gugavility is a girl.
Choice B. Gugavility is a boy.

Let's ask another group of
volunteers the same question.

Let's compare the results of the two groups. The are practically
identical! Half the group chooses
answer A. Half the group chooses
answer B. But the group that was
treated with the subliminals must
know the right answers! However,
they didn't. Their minds didn't
perceive the subliminal
information.

1.5. You can change the details
of the experiment.

You can use only one group of
volunteers. Ask them a question.
"What is Eric Puppengautner".
Variants. A. He is a german psychologist. B. He is a german
chemist. C. He is a german
surgeon. D. He is a german
biologist.

Let's record the result.

Now let's treat the group with
the subliminal message "åric
Puppengautner is a german
biologist." Let's treat them for
days and weeks.

Let's ask them the same question
again. Let's compare the results.
They are identical!

1.6. The experiment of that kind
was run by the german acoustic
institute (I don't remember the
exact name) several years ago.
They tested so-called subliminal
tapes and CDs of various
producers. Their diagnosis is
that information enclosed in the
subliminal message is not
perceived either consciously or
subconsciously. The human mind
(either conscious one or
subconscious one) doesn't decode
the informartion coded in
subliminal message. It simply
doesn't understand the meaning of
the subliminal message.

1.7. The simplest phrase wasn't
perceived after months of
reiteration. And yet, subliminal
tapes for learning foreign
languages are widely spread on
the market. Also, you can visit a
website that offers miraculous
CDs. It says: "Our subliminal CD
contains the full course of
psychology, history etc. etc. etc."
Tell me please, how it happens
the subliminal method is not able
to hammer into my head an easy
sentence, a simple fact and, at
the same time, the subliminal
method is potent enough to teach
me the whole language?

1.8. What about hypnosis, the
subliminals may work. (a) For
the person who prepares his subliminal messages himself. He
records a suggestion "I am an
optimist!" Then he transforms an
a suggestion into the subliminal
form. And it may produce some
effect because of the expectation
factor (but he must know what
information the subliminal
message contains). (b) For the
person who was told what
information the subliminal
message contain. But it's not the
subliminal message that works in
this case. It's the factor of
expectation that labours for your
welfare. The only cause
subliminals may work is the
expectation factor. The
expectation factor doesn't need
subliminals.


--

Antonio,

As I said before I think you and I just need to agree to disagree on
the subject of subliminals.  I've seen their effectiveness in my life,
the lives of my friends and associates, the results experienced by
clients and customers and through emails I receive.  They apparently
don't work for you for one reason or another.  You have found
something on YouTube that does work for you and I am happy for you.  I
found something interesting however.

A recurring point in your posts was the lack of "hard science, and not
soft science" (your words) that subliminals work and proof that they
work other than just the words of those who have experienced success
with them.  You also seemed to feel that any results were just
'placebo effect'.

Yet the guy that you promote from YouTube, states that:

1. He has not training, expertise or experience in this type of work.

2. Doesn't have a clue as to how his method (tapping) works.  He does
add, however, that not knowing or understanding how electricity works
won't keep you from turning on a light switch.

3. Can't give you any scientific papers (hard science) that show it works.

4. It works for him.

After viewing the videos, tapping seems to be a rudimentary form of
anchoring combined with placebo effect.

Antonio, I'm truly glad this works for you and hope that it continues
to.  However it isn't the 'one true way' and may not work for everyone
like it does for you.  The unconscious mind is an extremely powerful
part of us that we truly understand less about the inner workings of
than the oceans and outer space.  I know what I've seen and
experienced in over 30 years in this field.  I've seen subliminals,
NLP, hypnosis  and a host of other methods and technologies help
people to make real, lasting changes in their lives.

Your argument reminds me of some of my friends' dads when I was a kid
who would debate endlessly how the only car worth driving was a Ford,
Dodge, Chevy, Buick, (insert name of car company) since all the others
were just pure junk.  Amazingly enough, the highways weren't littered
with all of the other makes broken down on the side of the road.  They
seemed to work just fine for all of the people that bought them and
used them properly.  Much of this holds true for mind technologies.
There are a lot of them out there.  The ones that don't work well (the
Corvairs and such) seem to fade away while the things that work remain.

Again, I hope we can agree to disagree.

Dr. Richard Price
RCP Consulting
http://www.rcpconsulting.us
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