Exactly my point.  But a lot less people would suggest that we take motorcycles
off the road.  We are in some of the same positions with regards to public
opinion, but generally people see motorcycles as cool and spandex as weird.
Moreover, the loud and smelly parts where referring to the bike, and the beer
belly is just a statistic, and no offence with the jerk comment, I'm a jerk too.
And riding a bicycle does not negate this.
--- In bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com, "just_ryd" <just_ryd@...> wrote:
Awww c'mon now! Let's not throw down the stereotypes. I ride road bikes,
mountain bikes, sport bikes, and a Harley. The same type of misunderstanding
about cyclists happens with Harleys. People assume us to be "loud, smelly, jerks
with beer bellies". Just like anything else, one bad example ruins it for those
of us that respect the law and society...

just_ryd wrote:
> I dislike the hell-raising, beer-drinking, loud, smelly biker just as much as
the obnoxious cyclist that doesn't give room to traffic or hogs the lane.
There's enough pavement out there for ALL of us.

I'm curious what you mean by "the obnoxious cyclist that doesn't give
room to traffic or hogs the lane." Don't you agree that a cyclist has
the right to control a lane that is too narrow to share side-by-side
with a vehicle?

Bob Shanteau
Transportation Engineering Liaison
California Association of Bicycling Organizations

--- In bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com, "kan7an" <gcmack@...> wrote:
>
> I found out that Roseville will be hosting a "Hog Rally" in October, which got
me thinking.  It is strange that the bad cyclists are accused of many of the bad
behaviors of bad motorcyclist, but we are told to get off of the road, and
motorcycles are seen as cool.  Though I do not suggest that we become loud,
smelly, jerks with beer bellies, maybe we could take a few pointers from them on
P.R.?  Maybe I should get horns for my helmet...
>
Awww c'mon now! Let's not throw down the stereotypes. I ride road bikes,
mountain bikes, sport bikes, and a Harley. The same type of misunderstanding
about cyclists happens with Harleys. People assume us to be "loud, smelly, jerks
with beer bellies". Just like anything else, one bad example ruins it for those
of us that respect the law and society. I dislike the hell-raising,
beer-drinking, loud, smelly biker just as much as the obnoxious cyclist that
doesn't give room to traffic or hogs the lane. There's enough pavement out there
for ALL of us.
Plus its really cool when I pull up to a cyclist on the Harley when they're
fixing a flat and ask if they need any help. And I would gladly give up the
motorcycles before the bicycles ...

I found out that Roseville will be hosting a "Hog Rally" in October, which got
me thinking.  It is strange that the bad cyclists are accused of many of the bad
behaviors of bad motorcyclist, but we are told to get off of the road, and
motorcycles are seen as cool.  Though I do not suggest that we become loud,
smelly, jerks with beer bellies, maybe we could take a few pointers from them on
P.R.?  Maybe I should get horns for my helmet...

Biking Roseville <bikingroseville@...> writes:
> Is this reasonable feedback? Are we being held to a higher standard
> for some reason? Do we have an image problem?

Yes, cyclists have an image problem.  Here are some recent samples of
the anti-cyclist sentiment.

      http://www.sacbee.com/latest/story/2154577.html

60 comments on a story about a bicyclist killed in a traffic
collision.  A mix of condolences, and bike-don't-belong-on-the-road
comments, with rebuttals.

Here's a recent string of heated letters to the editor of the Auburn
Journal.  The first, titled "Arrogant cyclists increase" makes my
point about the image problem pretty well.  The rest are a mix of pro-
and con- cycling letters.  The comments attached to the letters are
similarly mixed and heated.

http://auburnjournal.com/detail/120250.html
http://auburnjournal.com/detail/118244.html
http://auburnjournal.com/detail/120251.html
http://auburnjournal.com/detail/120024.html
http://auburnjournal.com/detail/125945.html
http://auburnjournal.com/detail/127071.html
http://auburnjournal.com/detail/127290.html
http://auburnjournal.com/detail/128381.html
http://auburnjournal.com/detail/127175.html

-R

Hi Everyone-

With shorter days here, we re-vised rider
start times as follows:

4:00pm Men C, Women C, Juniors
4:30pm Kids up to 6 y.o.
5:00pm Men B
6:15pm Men A, Women A
Gates open at 2pm for pre-ride, or just
recreation riding on the crit course.

09/05/09 Raffle Items:
Road and Rack 4/5 Bike Rack,
One 2 shuttle pass from Yuba Expedition
Norco Beer Glasses, set of 4
REI Day Pack, and more swag stuff.

09/19/09 Raffle Items:
Raffling One night at Outside Inn,
Set of Maxxis Downhill tires.
'09 Giant Anthem Full Suspension Frame, Large
and more swag stuff.

Links to event website and photos:
http://www.lomaricaranch.com/twilightMBR.html
http://www.robertnlowe.com/

For questions call or send email to Jet Lowe
lowejet@...,  cell (916)207-4609

Good points made so far by everyone.

I would add to the fact that cyclists not obeying the rules there is also a lack
of understanding of the vehicle code by motorists.

But I also think people are just in general complaining - motorists about
bicyclists, bicyclists about motorists and other bicyclists and motorists about
other motorists.

When I watch traffic I always see some car drivers drive aggressively, even
using their horns, against other car drivers (I avoid riding with my dad, who
goes 120mph on the Autobahn with barely 5ft to spare to the guy ahead...).

I am sure if you say in a random conversation that some motorist cut you off
people will be able to agree and quickly tell a similar story.

So when somebody says he is teaching bicycle classes then it seems natural that
people who had bad encounters with bicyclists will remember those. It just
happens that there are a lot more motorists than bicyclists, so you hear the
story more often.

I will agree with those who say we bicyclists need to be extra careful to obey
the rules, to not add more fuel to the discussion (I'll keep my points about why
I don't like stop signs in residential areas for some other discussion...).

I do have a couple of thoughts on maliz128 email:

> That being said, the slightest cycling infraction on the road can freak me out
as a driver.

This is an interesting point. Why is it just cycling infractions that freak you
out?  A car driver going through a red light while you have green doesn't bother
you? I witnessed an accident a few years ago where one motorist had entered the
intersection and another one approached at high speed and caused an accident.
The lady in the car that was being hit was pretty freaked out, actually.

> "Good drivers" tend to anticipate what's happening on the road.

I fully agree with this. And drivers extend to bicyclists, of course. If I
wouldn't anticipate things as a bicyclist I'd have been toast for a few decades
already.

I can't even count the number of times I had to give up my right of way
(especially in Europe, where one of the most common accidents is a cyclist being
hit on a bike path riding through an intersection).

I remember when a car pulled out of a parking lot, obviously not seeing me and
my cousin while we simply rode along. I stopped, while my cousin was hit (albeit
very slightly and no major harm done).

Interestingly enough somebody once commented on my above story where I witnessed
a car accident, "Wow, it could have been you." I disagree with that as I had
already anticipated the accident when I could barely see the car - the motor
noise gave away the speed and the crash potential...


bjorn


--- On Thu, 8/27/09, maliz128@... <maliz128@...> wrote:

From: maliz128@... <maliz128@...>
Subject: Re: [bikingroseville] Do cyclists have an image problem?
To: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 7:05 PM






 








As a mostly driver, let me weigh in. Most "full time" cyclists I
know ARE courteous -- and obey the rules of the road - despite my
fears that they can hit a rock, a bump, see a snake, or have a tree fall
(or spring up) into their path that will cause them to swerve into my lane,
cause immense damage to my already dirty windshield, and lifetime damage to my
psyche. That being said, the slightest cycling infraction on the
road can freak me out as a driver. 
 
Of course, I'm speaking in hyperbole. But I have a
point.
 
"Good drivers" tend to anticipate what's happening on the
road. If a cyclist doesn't appear to be following the rules, we
know who suffers the most when its bike vs. car. No
driver wants to voluntarily arrange for a cyclist to meet their
maker. I think this is the reason why drivers can be touchy (wee-weed
up?) if a cyclist isn't super courteous.
 
And for the record, I think there are many way bad drivers than
cyclists.       
 
 
 
 

In a message dated 8/27/2009 6:07:17 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
mdour@roseville. ca.us writes:
 



   Hi David – Yes, Yes,
   Yes.

   The extreme cases
   that Damien mentioned definitely give bicyclists a bad name. However, even
   “mostly compliant” bicyclists (e.g. those who roll through stop signs) are
   noted by non-bicyclists as examples of boorish bicyclist behavior.


   When I’m talking to
   non-cyclists I try to remind them, as the old Depeche Mode song goes, People
   are People. See simple substitutions of bicyclist (motorist) below that
   somewhat hold true across population.


     There’s a small
     percentage of bicyclists (motorists) that follower the letter of the law and
     stop at every stop sign (never exceed speed limit).
     The vast
     majority of bicyclists (motorists) take a calculated risk and ride through
     stop signs (exceed the speed limit) because they believe they can operate
     slightly outside the letter of the law and still not be a harm to themselves
     or others.
     There is a
     small percentage of bicyclists (motorists) that take excessive risks like
     riding the wrong way and running red lights (excessive speed, running red
     lights). It could be argued that the percentage of bicyclists that take
     these excessive risks is higher than that of motorists because of a variety
     of factors (less enforcement on bicyclists, less training for bicyclists,
     maneuverability of bicycles, younger age groups, etc.)


   As a minority, it may
   be advisable for cyclists to take actions to exceed the societal norms (extra
   courteous and cautious) in order to make bicycling become more accepted and
   mainstream.

   Mike
   Dour





   From:
   bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com
   [mailto:bikingrosev ille@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Biking Roseville
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 4:37
   PM
To: BikingRoseville
   Group
Subject:
   [bikingroseville] Do cyclists have an image
   problem?

    







   BikingRosevillains,



   I noticed the bicycle advocates
   in New York City , Transportation Alternatives, are
   running a contest to produce a video public service
   message to encourage cyclists to be courteous. The
   underlying message in my mind is that cyclists are not considered the most
   courteous users of NYC roadways. In my travels around Roseville ,
   I see many cyclists demonstrating courtesy by sharing the public
   roadswith others, following the rules, etc. Sure, there are a
   few who aren't the best ambassadors of on-road cycling, but they're a
   minority. Yet it seems whenever non-cyclists find out about my cycling
   advocacy and education efforts, they often comment on how cyclists never stop
   at stop signs, ride against traffic, don't look where they're going and on and
   on...



   Is this reasonable
   feedback? Are we being
   held to a higher standard for some reason? Do we have an image problem?



   David

If I would judge Roseville auto drivers by the incidences of red lights run,
speeding, swerving, inatentiveness, failure to stop at stop signs, and blocking
of crosswalks, I would think that Roseville has some of the worst drivers.  It
is not that everyone is a bad driver, it is that the bad ones stand out.  When
we say Roseville has bad drivers, most people would say that they are in fact
good drivers.  However, when we say bicyclist don't follow the rules of the
road, most people do not ride in the road, so they can readily agree.  Also,
anyone on a bicycle gets lumped into this category, whether they are a 12 year
old or 50+ year old asian with a bike fully loaded with all his possessions,
(saw one yesterday).  This does not seem fair, because due to a lack of
enforcement, we will always have some cyclist doing outrageous things.

I have seen some bad behavior on bikes, but I would not say that the majority of
commuters are this way, but I am also not looking from the outside in.  I think
that the goal of the video should be to show that there are a lot of courteous
bicyclist, and you can be one too.

Greg
p.s. I really do think Roseville has some of the worst drivers.
--- In bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com, "Keehn, Damien" <damien.keehn@...>
wrote:
>
> I think that (unfortunately) it's reasonable feedback.

Exciting!:

      The project is the first part of a plan
      to develop 28 miles of the
      Sacramento-Placerville Transportation
      Corridor – former Southern Pacific
      Railroad right of way – from the
      Sacramento County line to Placerville.

      http://www.sacbee.com/topstories/story/2131924.html

A preview:

      American River Conservancy will offer
      preview hikes along the South Fork
      American River Trail from 9 a.m. to 1
      p.m. Sept. 5 and 26, Oct. 10 and 24, and
      Nov. 7 and 21. For more information or
      to sign up, call (530) 621-1224, or
      e-mail julie@....

Mentioned in the article:

      American River Conservancy
      http://arconservancy.org/

      Trails Now
      http://www.trailsnow.org/

      El Dorado County Transportation Commission
      http://www.edctc.org/

-R