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#877 From: mark McWilliams <hpv_of_earth@...>
Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:07 pm
Subject: firefighter shooting cyclist
hpv_of_earth
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It is very difficult to believe that the firefighter ONLY got 120 days in prison for such an act.* shooting someone in  the head and only because they hit only the helmet and not the person did the one who was shot lived. Now I am a little woorried on where the cyclists where riding. Was it on interstate 40 of off it near Tunnel Road on on interstate 40 near Tunnel Road ?
I have gotten 60 days plus fine for dumpster diving which is apparently against the law.

As a cyclist I often have things thrown at me and at least once have been deliberately run off the road but no one has shot at me yet. I do not wear a helmet so any shot like that would most likely do severe and permanent damage. Do not get me going on helmets, I did not wear one when I rode a motorcycle and when I was  a youngster helmets where unheard of for kids on bikes.

A story like this is just another reason to ride in a poison air machine AKA Al-qaeda support system AKA the automobile . Every gallon of oil you burn is putting money in the handss of the terrorists



#876 From: 4asimons4 <4asimons4@...>
Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:55 pm
Subject: Former Asheville firefighter pleads guilty in cyclist shooting | citizen-times.com | Asheville Citizen-Times
nala2cruise4...
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#875 From: Biking Roseville <bikingroseville@...>
Date: Sat Nov 7, 2009 12:57 am
Subject: Re: sunday streets
bikingroseville
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I volunteered at one of the SF Sunday Streets events this summer. It was incredible. Huge swaths of The Mission wall-to-wall with cyclists, folks walking, dancing, eating, bands playing. We taught little ones how to lose the training wheels and had a simple obstacle course for slightly older kids. It was fun.

I bet we could pull of something like this in Roseville. They shut down Vernon all the time for events. Honestly, I wouldn't want it to have the same "vendor fair" vibe that Downtown Tuesday Nights have. 

Oh here's an idea! Close Vernon, Oak, the Washbowl underpass and all of Old Town. The kids would go nuts riding back and forth through the underpass.

David


From: Ricardo Anguiano <reanguiano@...>
To: Biking Roseville <bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, November 5, 2009 10:35:20 AM
Subject: [bikingroseville] sunday streets

 


Shutting down specific streets to car
traffic so bikes and others can take
over for a day. I'm not sure what to
make of this. Has anyone gone to Sunday
Streets in SF? How was it? People in
Sacramento and Los Angeles are working
on the same idea.

SF:

http://sundaystreetssf.com/

Sacramento:

http://www.bikeramento.org/2009/01/16/sac-sunday-streets/

Los Angeles:

http://www.latimes. com/entertainmen t/news/la- et-guidefeature5 -2009nov05, 0,7415001. story

-R



#874 From: Ricardo Anguiano <reanguiano@...>
Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 6:35 pm
Subject: sunday streets
reanguiano
Online Now Online Now
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Shutting down specific streets to car
traffic so bikes and others can take
over for a day.  I'm not sure what to
make of this.  Has anyone gone to Sunday
Streets in SF?  How was it?  People in
Sacramento and Los Angeles are working
on the same idea.

SF:

      http://sundaystreetssf.com/

Sacramento:

      http://www.bikeramento.org/2009/01/16/sac-sunday-streets/

Los Angeles:

     
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-guidefeature5-2009nov05,0,741500\
1.story


-R

#873 From: Rich Wilson <wk633@...>
Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 12:10 am
Subject: Re: Re: Car Talk Puzzler
wk633
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Yes, that was my thought was mine.  Although I also put in a note that Dougie can legally run the light after stopping and making sure it's safe.  I didn't think to give instructions on how to trip the light.

What was your thought Greg?
 
No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare
-- James Madison



From: kan7an <gcmack@...>
To: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 2:44:01 PM
Subject: [bikingroseville] Re: Car Talk Puzzler

 

The traffic helps Dougie because his bicycle has a hard time changing the traffic lights. He must wait for another vehicle to change the light, so when there is less traffic, he must wait longer. Not my guess, but that is because I alway complain to Roseville Engineering when this happens to me. Maybe Dougie should make his voice heard in Boston.

Was this your guess Rich? It sounds like this was what you were thinking about in regards to running the red.

~Greg

--- In bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com, Rich Wilson <wk633@...> wrote:
>
> Actually, I kind of like this, since it will hopefully educate a large number of drivers as to the reason some cyclists go through red lights. Assuming I've got the answer, and I'm pretty sure I do. In my submission, I requested that when they discuss the answer, they point out that the number of cyclists to adhere to all rules of the road is almost certainly greater than the percentage of motor vehicle drivers who do the same. Anyone who doubts that should try driving the posted speed limit and see what happens :-)
> No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare
> -- James Madison
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: kan7an <gcmack@...>
> To: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Mon, October 26, 2009 5:51:03 PM
> Subject: [bikingroseville] Car Talk Puzzler
>
>
> Good news: Car talk's puzzler involves bicycling.
> Check it out -
> http://www.cartalk. com/content/ puzzler/
> or listen to it here (segment 8)-
> http://www.cartalk. com/Radio/ WeeklyShow/ online.html
>
> Bad news: While setting up this new puzzler, they stated that Doug was one of their city's few law-abiding cyclists; he signals, stops at all stop signs, and even yields to pedestrians. I wonder how the average Boston cyclist likes this kind of review?
>
> Let me know if you entered an answer. I have a guess, but will probably not get around to entering it.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>



#872 From: "kan7an" <gcmack@...>
Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 10:44 pm
Subject: Re: Car Talk Puzzler
kan7an
Offline Offline
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The traffic helps Dougie because his bicycle has a hard time changing the
traffic lights.  He must wait for another vehicle to change the light, so when
there is less traffic, he must wait longer.  Not my guess, but that is because I
alway complain to Roseville Engineering when this happens to me.  Maybe Dougie
should make his voice heard in Boston.

Was this your guess Rich? It sounds like this was what you were thinking about
in regards to running the red.

~Greg

--- In bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com, Rich Wilson <wk633@...> wrote:
>
> Actually, I kind of like this, since it will hopefully educate a large number
of drivers as to the reason some cyclists go through red lights.  Assuming I've
got the answer, and I'm pretty sure I do.  In my submission, I requested that
when they discuss the answer, they point out that the number of cyclists to
adhere to all rules of the road is almost certainly greater than the percentage
of motor vehicle drivers who do the same.  Anyone who doubts that should try
driving the posted speed limit and see what happens :-)
>  No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare
> -- James Madison
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: kan7an <gcmack@...>
> To: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, October 26, 2009 5:51:03 PM
> Subject: [bikingroseville] Car Talk Puzzler
>
>
> Good news: Car talk's puzzler involves bicycling.
> Check it out -
> http://www.cartalk. com/content/ puzzler/
> or listen to it here (segment 8)-
> http://www.cartalk. com/Radio/ WeeklyShow/ online.html
>
> Bad news: While setting up this new puzzler, they stated that Doug was one of
their city's few law-abiding cyclists; he signals, stops at all stop signs, and
even yields to pedestrians.  I wonder how the average Boston cyclist likes this
kind of review?
>
> Let me know if you entered an answer.  I have a guess, but will probably not
get around to entering it.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>

#871 From: "kan7an" <gcmack@...>
Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 10:32 pm
Subject: Bicycling 101
kan7an
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Last weekend I was able to participate in a fun learning experience. I took a League of American Bicyclists Bike class from David and Chris, of Biking Roseville fame, and got a couple of great tips on how to be safer while commuting by bike.

This program consisted of two sessions, a classroom component and a practical component in which we put the information gleaned from the first class into practice.

Originally, I signed up for this class because my wife made it clear that it would make her feel better about me riding around Roseville's streets on a bicycle. I did not think I would learn much, but I like bikes and love my wife, so decided to sign up. I am glad I did. After the first class, I was looking forward to the second.

I am an experienced vehicular bicyclist and have been riding in the road since High school (20 yrs ago?!?) and learned the rules as I went. I could have learned all that in this class and saved myself a couple of scrapes and bruises. On top of that, I learned a bit more. However, this is not the most valuable part of the experience for me. These classes have helped me be less irritable on the road. It can be very hard not to think that it is us against them, and that we must constantly fight for a space. These classes helped me understand that I am a road user; I have a right to be there, I am not in the way, and that boneheaded thing that that car did may not have been intentional. Right after the first class, I noticed that I arrive at work or home irate less often and that I enjoy more of the ride. These classes have let me be a road user trying to negotiate my commute instead of a combatant trying to fight for a spot.

Besides, the class turned out to be really fun. If you haven't already, you should think about taking a class like this. If you have, post your experience. It would be great to read about it.

Be Safe~  
Greg

#870 From: Rich Wilson <wk633@...>
Date: Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:06 am
Subject: Re: Car Talk Puzzler
wk633
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Actually, I kind of like this, since it will hopefully educate a large number of drivers as to the reason some cyclists go through red lights.  Assuming I've got the answer, and I'm pretty sure I do.  In my submission, I requested that when they discuss the answer, they point out that the number of cyclists to adhere to all rules of the road is almost certainly greater than the percentage of motor vehicle drivers who do the same.  Anyone who doubts that should try driving the posted speed limit and see what happens :-)
 
No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare
-- James Madison



From: kan7an <gcmack@...>
To: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, October 26, 2009 5:51:03 PM
Subject: [bikingroseville] Car Talk Puzzler

 

Good news: Car talk's puzzler involves bicycling.  

Check it out -
or listen to it here (segment 8)-

Bad news: While setting up this new puzzler, they stated that Doug was one of their city's few law-abiding cyclists; he signals, stops at all stop signs, and even yields to pedestrians. I wonder how the average Boston cyclist likes this kind of review?

Let me know if you entered an answer. I have a guess, but will probably not get around to entering it.

Regards,
Greg


#869 From: "kan7an" <gcmack@...>
Date: Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:51 am
Subject: Car Talk Puzzler
kan7an
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Send Email Send Email
 
Good news: Car talk's puzzler involves bicycling.  
Check it out -
or listen to it here (segment 8)-

Bad news: While setting up this new puzzler, they stated that Doug was one of their city's few law-abiding cyclists; he signals, stops at all stop signs, and even yields to pedestrians. I wonder how the average Boston cyclist likes this kind of review?

Let me know if you entered an answer. I have a guess, but will probably not get around to entering it.

Regards,
Greg

#868 From: bjhaake <bjhaake@...>
Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:01 pm
Subject: Re: Cyclists: what image do we want to present?
bjhaake
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I really enjoyed Mighk's blog entry. I also agree with some things mentioned in the first article, but find it less important to focus on that. As a cyclist it doesn't help me to point out the motorists' faults, but riding lawfully will help set an example and decrease tension.

I do think to some degree the constant repeating that bicycling is dangerous gets into people's heads. I'd also think that if bicyclists became less special that it would be easier for somebody to start riding bicycles.
It was quite refreshing for me to move back to Europe after ten years in the US. In Gent/Belgium I could go out and ride my bike and I wasn't constantly asked about it or heard those comments about riding all the time. It was such a normal part of life and it's really neat.

One more thing:
Rich wrote
>Helmets?  I've long ago given up that debate.  I think the number of people I see riding >around without helmets indicates that need-a-helmet- induced-fear isn't keeping people off >the bike.

The people who ride without the helmets are not the ones who are afraid. It's the ones who *don't* ride we have to worry about.

Why is it that when 51,000 people die of head injuries in the US each year and only 700 cyclists die in the same time frame that we single out the bicyclists and don't require helmets in households, for pedestrians and for car drivers (special helmets to decrease rotational brain injuries have been developed years ago), which is where the majority of fatal head injuries occur?

bjorn


--- On Tue, 10/20/09, Rich Wilson <wk633@...> wrote:

From: Rich Wilson <wk633@...>
Subject: Re: [bikingroseville] Cyclists: what image do we want to present?
To: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 9:32 AM

 

I had read the Washcycle piece some time ago, but just read the 2nd one now.  Well, skimmed to be honest.  And I'm not sure I buy it.  Maybe I'm just an already-too- angry cyclist.

I don't see advocacy efforts as sending the message that cycling isn't safe.  Maybe the 3' pass law, which I'm actually mixed on.  But I see that as a codification of "don't hit people".  I don't think it will make things any safer, it will simply be a law that can (not must) be used in the case that a cyclist is hit by a passing motorist.  I think I'd maybe prefer a "don't hit others when passing" rule.  And I think we already have one.

Helmets?  I've long ago given up that debate.  I think the number of people I see riding around without helmets indicates that need-a-helmet- induced-fear isn't keeping people off the bike.

Stop as yield?  That makes us look like we think we're 'special' but not that we think cycling is dangerous.

We are a minority.  And when minorities advocate, some see that as requesting special rights, while the minorities claim it as equal rights.  I don't want a motorist who kills a cyclist to be treated any differently from a motorist who kills anyone else.  What I do want is for cases to be investigated fairly and equally.  This has been a topic on Bob Mionske's mind of late, and I highly recommend some of his blog posts on the subject here:

 
No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare
-- James Madison



From: Biking Roseville <bikingroseville@ yahoo.com>
To: BikingRoseville Group <bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com>
Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 3:44:42 PM
Subject: [bikingroseville] Cyclists: what image do we want to present?

 

BikingRosevillains,

I received the two articles below recently via the SABA list. The first seeks to dispel the myth of cyclists being unrepentant law breakers. The second follows on that idea and suggests perhaps a new way to achieve the goal of encouraging more folks to give cycling a try. I must admit that the second article makes a lot of sense to me.



I'm looking forward to reading your reaction.

David


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#867 From: Rich Wilson <wk633@...>
Date: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:32 pm
Subject: Re: Cyclists: what image do we want to present?
wk633
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I had read the Washcycle piece some time ago, but just read the 2nd one now.  Well, skimmed to be honest.  And I'm not sure I buy it.  Maybe I'm just an already-too-angry cyclist.

I don't see advocacy efforts as sending the message that cycling isn't safe.  Maybe the 3' pass law, which I'm actually mixed on.  But I see that as a codification of "don't hit people".  I don't think it will make things any safer, it will simply be a law that can (not must) be used in the case that a cyclist is hit by a passing motorist.  I think I'd maybe prefer a "don't hit others when passing" rule.  And I think we already have one.

Helmets?  I've long ago given up that debate.  I think the number of people I see riding around without helmets indicates that need-a-helmet-induced-fear isn't keeping people off the bike.

Stop as yield?  That makes us look like we think we're 'special' but not that we think cycling is dangerous.

We are a minority.  And when minorities advocate, some see that as requesting special rights, while the minorities claim it as equal rights.  I don't want a motorist who kills a cyclist to be treated any differently from a motorist who kills anyone else.  What I do want is for cases to be investigated fairly and equally.  This has been a topic on Bob Mionske's mind of late, and I highly recommend some of his blog posts on the subject here:

 
No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare
-- James Madison



From: Biking Roseville <bikingroseville@...>
To: BikingRoseville Group <bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, October 13, 2009 3:44:42 PM
Subject: [bikingroseville] Cyclists: what image do we want to present?

 

BikingRosevillains,

I received the two articles below recently via the SABA list. The first seeks to dispel the myth of cyclists being unrepentant law breakers. The second follows on that idea and suggests perhaps a new way to achieve the goal of encouraging more folks to give cycling a try. I must admit that the second article makes a lot of sense to me.



I'm looking forward to reading your reaction.

David


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Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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#866 From: "garysmith123" <garysmith123@...>
Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:39 pm
Subject: Re: Harding to Royer trail segment opens
garysmith123
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I like to see that the path is being used, and that moms with strollers
and small kids on bikes can also feel comfortable using the path. I know
that the path is primarily used for casual users, so I'm comfortable
just taking it nice and slow along there and enjoying the scenery.

But I find that many of the pedestrians on the trail have no clue that
this trail is shared with bikes. Often when I  ride that trail I find
the it completely blocked by totally clueless pedestrians taking up both
lanes. I have often seen toddlers meandering around the trail without
having a parent at arm's length.

Education is probably the best approach. Signs get missed easily, so
perhaps plenty of stenciled icons could be painted along the trail to
indicate that pedestrians should take the left lane (only one lane!),
face left and be aware of bikes, and icons for bikes to ride on the
right, to take it slow and watch for pedestrians.

Gary

--- In bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com, Greg Mack <gcmack@...> wrote:
>
> I have seen all of these except for the first one.  The earbud issue
is big,
> for I have approached people with my bell ringing, and still scared
the crud
> out of them, with the earbud user giving you "the look" of
incrimination.
>  The path has too many turns in it to be safe going very fast.  I
think
> speed limit signs could help.  I also think there could be more
mirrors
> around some of the worst turns, like the one under N. Sunrise Ave.
> Two other items I have seen was dog droppings on the trail (slippery
on
> turns), and motorized vehicles (mopeds, and a motorized scooter).  I
stopped
> the scooter, but never caught up to the mopeds.
>
> I like the trail patrol, but it would be a lot of work for a couple of
> people.  I think trying to educate most of the people would probably
be
> best.  Otherwise, deputize me, I'd volunteer if I got a taser ;)
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Dour, Mike mdour@... wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hi David - I've heard from about 8 or 10 people over the past year,
with
> > differing perspectives on trail etiquette. Some of the viewpionts:
> >
> >    - Bicyclists going too fast and then yelling at families to get
out of
> >    the way, making it unenjoyable for families with young children.
This
> >    particular person expressed that they don't want Roseville's
trails to
> >    become like the American River Parkway (a raceway for bikes).
> >    - Bicyclists not calling out when passing; passing too fast/close
> >    - Pedesterians not paying attention; making sudden movements
across the
> >    trail; unable to hear approaching bicyclists because they are
wearing
> >    earbuds; not controlling their dogs, or having dogs on leashes
that are too
> >    long;
> >    - Pedestrians walking on the wrong side of the trail, with wrong
side
> >    for pedestrians being defined by some complainants as left side
and by
> >    others as the right side. These comments come not only from
bicyclists
> >    but also from other pedestrians who don't want to move from their
position.
> >
> > Each of the complaints involves at least 1 party who was not being
> > considerate of other trail users, whether it be a bicyclist or
pedestrian.
> > In fact, one of the complaints involved two inconsiderate parties
who were
> > both so stubborn that neither one would budge when approaching each
other on
> > the trail.
> >
> > The benefit of trail etiquette guidelines is that users will have a
clear
> > expectation for how they and others should act on Roseville's
> > trails. However, they won't necessarily get people to be considerate
of each
> > other, which may be the bigger challenge.
> >
> > City staff is kicking around a couple ideas on how to address this
> > challenge, one being a volunteer trail patrol. Any other ideas out
there?
> >
> > Thanks. Mike
> >
> > *Michael Dour*
> > *Alternative Transportation Analyst - Bikeways*
> > Public Works - Alternative Transportation
> > City of Roseville
> > 401 Vernon St.
> > Roseville, CA 95678
> > (916) 746-1304
> > (916) 746-1333 fax
> > www.roseville.ca.us/pw
> > [image: City of Roseville]
> >
> >  ------------------------------
> > *From:* bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
> > bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Biking Roseville
> > *Sent:* Saturday, October 17, 2009 6:39 PM
> > *To:* bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com
> > *Subject:* Re: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment
opens
> >
> >
> >
> >  Hi Mike,
> >
> > Can you describe these user conflicts? I'd like to hope that
cyclists are
> > showing the utmost consideration for other trail users out on
Roseville
> > trails given how hard we fight for the same consideration from
motorists out
> > on the roadways.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------
> > *From:* "Dour, Mike" mdour@...
> > *To:* Rob F bikesafenorcal@...; bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com
> > *Sent:* Fri, October 16, 2009 10:17:28 AM
> > *Subject:* RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment
opens
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Rob -  Thanks for the email. I understand your concerns with more
trail
> > users since over the past year I've been receiving more comments
about the
> > potential for user conflicts.
> >
> > The City standard for Class I trails is 10' paved, with 3' foot
shoulders
> > on each side. The shoulders are designed so that 2' is improved with
AB or
> > DG, and the other 1' of shoulder is dirt. The 3' shoulder width is a
> > relatively new design... prior to 2007 the City standard was for 2'
> > shoulders. Also, the DG requirement is new as of 2004. Prior to 2004
we did
> > not use DG for our shoulders. Please note that this exceeds Caltrans
> > Standards for Class I trails, which is 8' paved with 2' shoulders on
each
> > side.
> >
> > The design work for Miners Ravine started in 2003. The Environmental
Impact
> > Report conducted in 2004 evaluated a shoulder design at 2' wide.
When the
> > standard changed in 2007, we considered changing the design of the
Harding
> > to Royer project. However, since the rest of the Miners Ravine Trail
is
> > designed under the old standard and since the EIR evaluated impacts
under
> > the old standard, we chose to leave the design as originally
planned, which
> > is basically the 2004 standard.
> >
> > As I noted above, the City has been receiving comments about user
conflicts
> > out on the trail. We will be conducting public outreach beginning
this
> > winter on how to address this concern. We expect the result of this
effort
> > will be enhanced trail use/etiquette guidelines. If, after
implementing new
> > trail use guidelines and other feasible measures, we continue to see
issues,
> > then maybe we'll have to look into other measures such as shoulder
widening.
> > If we do that, we would want to widen shoulders for the entire
length of the
> > trail, not just a 1-mile segment out of 6 miles of trail. Any
decision to
> > take such action would be made in consideration of the relative
costs and
> > benefits.
> >
> > Please let me know if you have any further questions. Thanks, mike
> >
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------
> > *From:* Rob F [mailto:bikesafenor cal@yahoo. com]
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:12 PM
> > *To:* bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com; Dour, Mike
> > *Subject:* RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment
opens
> >
> >    I've had the opportunity over the past several months to spend
some
> > time on Roseville's Class I bike paths and it's been great to see so
many
> > people out there using the trail system... cyclists, walkers,
runners, etc.
> > However, the Class I facilities that I've used in the City do not
appear to
> > meet the City's standards for graded areas adjacent to the pavement
and this
> > means that more and more trail users are squeezed into the paved
space
> > creating increase potential for user conflicts.  Based on a sneak
peek at
> > the new Harding to Royer segment, it looks like the required
shoulders
> > haven't been installed there, either.
> >
> > The City's standards require a minimum of 3 feet graded shoulders
adjacent
> > to each side of the pavement, with at least one side having
decomposed
> > granite.  I'm concerned that this is an important design feature
that is
> > being overlooked (and I sure hope construction contractors aren't
being paid
> > to construct the shoulders and simply not being required to put them
in).
> > Is it possible for someone with the City to explain why the
requisite
> > shoulders are not being installed or, better yet, let's just get the
trails
> > constructed consistent with the City's standards.
> >
> > -Rob
> >
> > --- On *Mon, 9/28/09, Dour, Mike mdour@roseville. ca.us>* wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Dour, Mike mdour@roseville. ca.us>
> > Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens
> > To: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com
> > Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 7:56 AM
> >
> >    Hi folks - A kindly reminder that the trail is not officially
open yet
> > because we have to install signs, striping, fencing and a safety
railing.
> > I'll post an email when the public is invited to enjoy the trail.
Thanks
> > everyone! Mike
> >
> >  ------------------------------
> > *From:* bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com
[mailto:bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com]
> > *On Behalf Of *Biking Roseville
> > *Sent:* Sunday, September 27, 2009 8:17 AM
> > *To:* BikingRoseville Group
> > *Subject:* [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens
> >
> >
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > I rode the new Harding to Royer trail segment this morning. It runs
between
> > Folsom St. and the Harding to East St. segment of the Miner's Ravine
trail.
> > It's beautiful. Anyone else try it?
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

#865 From: Rich Wilson <wk633@...>
Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:50 pm
Subject: Re: Harding to Royer trail segment opens
wk633
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
If we have a sign with a list of rules, I'd like the last one to say "And please, no yelling, especially at children."

I know adrenaline takes over, but nobody changes their behavior because they've been yelled at.  Not that I haven't done my share of yelling, but it's not in keeping with the gestalt of a bike trail.
 
No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare
-- James Madison



From: "Dour, Mike" <mdour@...>
To: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, October 19, 2009 11:18:21 AM
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

 

Hi David - I've heard from about 8 or 10 people over the past year, with differing perspectives on trail etiquette. Some of the viewpionts:
  • Bicyclists going too fast and then yelling at families to get out of the way, making it unenjoyable for families with young children. This particular person expressed that they don't want Roseville's trails to become like the American River Parkway (a raceway for bikes).
  • Bicyclists not calling out when passing; passing too fast/close
  • Pedesterians not paying attention; making sudden movements across the trail; unable to hear approaching bicyclists because they are wearing earbuds; not controlling their dogs, or having dogs on leashes that are too long;
  • Pedestrians walking on the wrong side of the trail, with wrong side for pedestrians being defined by some complainants as left side and by others as the right side. These comments come not only from bicyclists but also from other pedestrians who don't want to move from their position.
Each of the complaints involves at least 1 party who was not being considerate of other trail users, whether it be a bicyclist or pedestrian. In fact, one of the complaints involved two inconsiderate parties who were both so stubborn that neither one would budge when approaching each other on the trail. 
 
The benefit of trail etiquette guidelines is that users will have a clear expectation for how they and others should act on Roseville's trails. However, they won't necessarily get people to be considerate of each other, which may be the bigger challenge. 
 
City staff is kicking around a couple ideas on how to address this challenge, one being a volunteer trail patrol. Any other ideas out there?
 
Thanks. Mike
 
Michael Dour
Alternative Transportation Analyst - Bikeways
Public Works - Alternative Transportation
City of Roseville
401 Vernon St.
Roseville, CA 95678
(916) 746-1304
(916) 746-1333 fax
www.roseville. ca.us/pw
City of Roseville


From: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:bikingrosev ille@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Biking Roseville
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 6:39 PM
To: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

 

Hi Mike,

Can you describe these user conflicts? I'd like to hope that cyclists are showing the utmost consideration for other trail users out on Roseville trails given how hard we fight for the same consideration from motorists out on the roadways. 

Thanks,
David




From: "Dour, Mike" <mdour@roseville. ca.us>
To: Rob F <bikesafenorcal@ yahoo.com>; bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Fri, October 16, 2009 10:17:28 AM
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

 

Hi Rob -  Thanks for the email. I understand your concerns with more trail users since over the past year I've been receiving more comments about the potential for user conflicts.
 
The City standard for Class I trails is 10' paved, with 3' foot shoulders on each side. The shoulders are designed so that 2' is improved with AB or DG, and the other 1' of shoulder is dirt. The 3' shoulder width is a relatively new design... prior to 2007 the City standard was for 2' shoulders. Also, the DG requirement is new as of 2004. Prior to 2004 we did not use DG for our shoulders. Please note that this exceeds Caltrans Standards for Class I trails, which is 8' paved with 2' shoulders on each side.
 
The design work for Miners Ravine started in 2003. The Environmental Impact Report conducted in 2004 evaluated a shoulder design at 2' wide. When the standard changed in 2007, we considered changing the design of the Harding to Royer project. However, since the rest of the Miners Ravine Trail is designed under the old standard and since the EIR evaluated impacts under the old standard, we chose to leave the design as originally planned, which is basically the 2004 standard.
 
As I noted above, the City has been receiving comments about user conflicts out on the trail. We will be conducting public outreach beginning this winter on how to address this concern. We expect the result of this effort will be enhanced trail use/etiquette guidelines. If, after implementing new trail use guidelines and other feasible measures, we continue to see issues, then maybe we'll have to look into other measures such as shoulder widening. If we do that, we would want to widen shoulders for the entire length of the trail, not just a 1-mile segment out of 6 miles of trail. Any decision to take such action would be made in consideration of the relative costs and benefits.
 
Please let me know if you have any further questions. Thanks, mike
 
 


From: Rob F [mailto:bikesafenor cal@yahoo. com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:12 PM
To: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com; Dour, Mike
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

I've had the opportunity over the past several months to spend some time on Roseville's Class I bike paths and it's been great to see so many people out there using the trail system... cyclists, walkers, runners, etc.  However, the Class I facilities that I've used in the City do not appear to meet the City's standards for graded areas adjacent to the pavement and this means that more and more trail users are squeezed into the paved space creating increase potential for user conflicts.  Based on a sneak peek at the new Harding to Royer segment, it looks like the required shoulders haven't been installed there, either. 
 
The City's standards require a minimum of 3 feet graded shoulders adjacent to each side of the pavement, with at least one side having decomposed granite.  I'm concerned that this is an important design feature that is being overlooked (and I sure hope construction contractors aren't being paid to construct the shoulders and simply not being required to put them in).  Is it possible for someone with the City to explain why the requisite shoulders are not being installed or, better yet, let's just get the trails constructed consistent with the City's standards. 
 
-Rob

--- On Mon, 9/28/09, Dour, Mike <mdour@roseville. ca.us> wrote:

From: Dour, Mike <mdour@roseville. ca.us>
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens
To: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 7:56 AM

 
Hi folks - A kindly reminder that the trail is not officially open yet because we have to install signs, striping, fencing and a safety railing. I'll post an email when the public is invited to enjoy the trail. Thanks everyone! Mike


From: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:bikingrosev ille@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Biking Roseville
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 8:17 AM
To: BikingRoseville Group
Subject: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

 
Hi Folks,

I rode the new Harding to Royer trail segment this morning. It runs between Folsom St. and the Harding to East St. segment of the Miner's Ravine trail. It's beautiful. Anyone else try it?

David




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#864 From: Greg Mack <gcmack@...>
Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:31 pm
Subject: Re: Harding to Royer trail segment opens
kan7an
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
I have seen all of these except for the first one.  The earbud issue is big, for I have approached people with my bell ringing, and still scared the crud out of them, with the earbud user giving you "the look" of incrimination.  The path has too many turns in it to be safe going very fast.  I think speed limit signs could help.  I also think there could be more mirrors around some of the worst turns, like the one under N. Sunrise Ave.

Two other items I have seen was dog droppings on the trail (slippery on turns), and motorized vehicles (mopeds, and a motorized scooter).  I stopped the scooter, but never caught up to the mopeds.

I like the trail patrol, but it would be a lot of work for a couple of people.  I think trying to educate most of the people would probably be best.  Otherwise, deputize me, I'd volunteer if I got a taser ;)

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Dour, Mike <mdour@...> wrote:
 

Hi David - I've heard from about 8 or 10 people over the past year, with differing perspectives on trail etiquette. Some of the viewpionts:
  • Bicyclists going too fast and then yelling at families to get out of the way, making it unenjoyable for families with young children. This particular person expressed that they don't want Roseville's trails to become like the American River Parkway (a raceway for bikes).
  • Bicyclists not calling out when passing; passing too fast/close
  • Pedesterians not paying attention; making sudden movements across the trail; unable to hear approaching bicyclists because they are wearing earbuds; not controlling their dogs, or having dogs on leashes that are too long;
  • Pedestrians walking on the wrong side of the trail, with wrong side for pedestrians being defined by some complainants as left side and by others as the right side. These comments come not only from bicyclists but also from other pedestrians who don't want to move from their position.
Each of the complaints involves at least 1 party who was not being considerate of other trail users, whether it be a bicyclist or pedestrian. In fact, one of the complaints involved two inconsiderate parties who were both so stubborn that neither one would budge when approaching each other on the trail. 
 
The benefit of trail etiquette guidelines is that users will have a clear expectation for how they and others should act on Roseville's trails. However, they won't necessarily get people to be considerate of each other, which may be the bigger challenge. 
 
City staff is kicking around a couple ideas on how to address this challenge, one being a volunteer trail patrol. Any other ideas out there?
 
Thanks. Mike
 
Michael Dour
Alternative Transportation Analyst - Bikeways
Public Works - Alternative Transportation
City of Roseville
401 Vernon St.
Roseville, CA 95678
(916) 746-1304
(916) 746-1333 fax
www.roseville.ca.us/pw
City of Roseville


From: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Biking Roseville
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 6:39 PM
To: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

 

Hi Mike,

Can you describe these user conflicts? I'd like to hope that cyclists are showing the utmost consideration for other trail users out on Roseville trails given how hard we fight for the same consideration from motorists out on the roadways. 

Thanks,
David




From: "Dour, Mike" <mdour@...>
To: Rob F <bikesafenorcal@...>; bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, October 16, 2009 10:17:28 AM
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

 

Hi Rob -  Thanks for the email. I understand your concerns with more trail users since over the past year I've been receiving more comments about the potential for user conflicts.
 
The City standard for Class I trails is 10' paved, with 3' foot shoulders on each side. The shoulders are designed so that 2' is improved with AB or DG, and the other 1' of shoulder is dirt. The 3' shoulder width is a relatively new design... prior to 2007 the City standard was for 2' shoulders. Also, the DG requirement is new as of 2004. Prior to 2004 we did not use DG for our shoulders. Please note that this exceeds Caltrans Standards for Class I trails, which is 8' paved with 2' shoulders on each side.
 
The design work for Miners Ravine started in 2003. The Environmental Impact Report conducted in 2004 evaluated a shoulder design at 2' wide. When the standard changed in 2007, we considered changing the design of the Harding to Royer project. However, since the rest of the Miners Ravine Trail is designed under the old standard and since the EIR evaluated impacts under the old standard, we chose to leave the design as originally planned, which is basically the 2004 standard.
 
As I noted above, the City has been receiving comments about user conflicts out on the trail. We will be conducting public outreach beginning this winter on how to address this concern. We expect the result of this effort will be enhanced trail use/etiquette guidelines. If, after implementing new trail use guidelines and other feasible measures, we continue to see issues, then maybe we'll have to look into other measures such as shoulder widening. If we do that, we would want to widen shoulders for the entire length of the trail, not just a 1-mile segment out of 6 miles of trail. Any decision to take such action would be made in consideration of the relative costs and benefits.
 
Please let me know if you have any further questions. Thanks, mike
 
 


From: Rob F [mailto:bikesafenor cal@yahoo. com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:12 PM
To: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com; Dour, Mike
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

I've had the opportunity over the past several months to spend some time on Roseville's Class I bike paths and it's been great to see so many people out there using the trail system... cyclists, walkers, runners, etc.  However, the Class I facilities that I've used in the City do not appear to meet the City's standards for graded areas adjacent to the pavement and this means that more and more trail users are squeezed into the paved space creating increase potential for user conflicts.  Based on a sneak peek at the new Harding to Royer segment, it looks like the required shoulders haven't been installed there, either. 
 
The City's standards require a minimum of 3 feet graded shoulders adjacent to each side of the pavement, with at least one side having decomposed granite.  I'm concerned that this is an important design feature that is being overlooked (and I sure hope construction contractors aren't being paid to construct the shoulders and simply not being required to put them in).  Is it possible for someone with the City to explain why the requisite shoulders are not being installed or, better yet, let's just get the trails constructed consistent with the City's standards. 
 
-Rob

--- On Mon, 9/28/09, Dour, Mike <mdour@roseville. ca.us> wrote:

From: Dour, Mike <mdour@roseville. ca.us>
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens
To: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 7:56 AM

 
Hi folks - A kindly reminder that the trail is not officially open yet because we have to install signs, striping, fencing and a safety railing. I'll post an email when the public is invited to enjoy the trail. Thanks everyone! Mike


From: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:bikingrosev ille@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Biking Roseville
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 8:17 AM
To: BikingRoseville Group
Subject: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

 
Hi Folks,

I rode the new Harding to Royer trail segment this morning. It runs between Folsom St. and the Harding to East St. segment of the Miner's Ravine trail. It's beautiful. Anyone else try it?

David





#863 From: "Dour, Mike" <mdour@...>
Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:18 pm
Subject: RE: Harding to Royer trail segment opens
michaeldour
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi David - I've heard from about 8 or 10 people over the past year, with differing perspectives on trail etiquette. Some of the viewpionts:
  • Bicyclists going too fast and then yelling at families to get out of the way, making it unenjoyable for families with young children. This particular person expressed that they don't want Roseville's trails to become like the American River Parkway (a raceway for bikes).
  • Bicyclists not calling out when passing; passing too fast/close
  • Pedesterians not paying attention; making sudden movements across the trail; unable to hear approaching bicyclists because they are wearing earbuds; not controlling their dogs, or having dogs on leashes that are too long;
  • Pedestrians walking on the wrong side of the trail, with wrong side for pedestrians being defined by some complainants as left side and by others as the right side. These comments come not only from bicyclists but also from other pedestrians who don't want to move from their position.
Each of the complaints involves at least 1 party who was not being considerate of other trail users, whether it be a bicyclist or pedestrian. In fact, one of the complaints involved two inconsiderate parties who were both so stubborn that neither one would budge when approaching each other on the trail. 
 
The benefit of trail etiquette guidelines is that users will have a clear expectation for how they and others should act on Roseville's trails. However, they won't necessarily get people to be considerate of each other, which may be the bigger challenge. 
 
City staff is kicking around a couple ideas on how to address this challenge, one being a volunteer trail patrol. Any other ideas out there?
 
Thanks. Mike
 
Michael Dour
Alternative Transportation Analyst - Bikeways
Public Works - Alternative Transportation
City of Roseville
401 Vernon St.
Roseville, CA 95678
(916) 746-1304
(916) 746-1333 fax
www.roseville.ca.us/pw
City of Roseville


From: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Biking Roseville
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 6:39 PM
To: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

 

Hi Mike,

Can you describe these user conflicts? I'd like to hope that cyclists are showing the utmost consideration for other trail users out on Roseville trails given how hard we fight for the same consideration from motorists out on the roadways. 

Thanks,
David




From: "Dour, Mike" <mdour@roseville.ca.us>
To: Rob F <bikesafenorcal@yahoo.com>; bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, October 16, 2009 10:17:28 AM
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

 

Hi Rob -  Thanks for the email. I understand your concerns with more trail users since over the past year I've been receiving more comments about the potential for user conflicts.
 
The City standard for Class I trails is 10' paved, with 3' foot shoulders on each side. The shoulders are designed so that 2' is improved with AB or DG, and the other 1' of shoulder is dirt. The 3' shoulder width is a relatively new design... prior to 2007 the City standard was for 2' shoulders. Also, the DG requirement is new as of 2004. Prior to 2004 we did not use DG for our shoulders. Please note that this exceeds Caltrans Standards for Class I trails, which is 8' paved with 2' shoulders on each side.
 
The design work for Miners Ravine started in 2003. The Environmental Impact Report conducted in 2004 evaluated a shoulder design at 2' wide. When the standard changed in 2007, we considered changing the design of the Harding to Royer project. However, since the rest of the Miners Ravine Trail is designed under the old standard and since the EIR evaluated impacts under the old standard, we chose to leave the design as originally planned, which is basically the 2004 standard.
 
As I noted above, the City has been receiving comments about user conflicts out on the trail. We will be conducting public outreach beginning this winter on how to address this concern. We expect the result of this effort will be enhanced trail use/etiquette guidelines. If, after implementing new trail use guidelines and other feasible measures, we continue to see issues, then maybe we'll have to look into other measures such as shoulder widening. If we do that, we would want to widen shoulders for the entire length of the trail, not just a 1-mile segment out of 6 miles of trail. Any decision to take such action would be made in consideration of the relative costs and benefits.
 
Please let me know if you have any further questions. Thanks, mike
 
 


From: Rob F [mailto:bikesafenor cal@yahoo. com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:12 PM
To: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com; Dour, Mike
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

I've had the opportunity over the past several months to spend some time on Roseville's Class I bike paths and it's been great to see so many people out there using the trail system... cyclists, walkers, runners, etc.  However, the Class I facilities that I've used in the City do not appear to meet the City's standards for graded areas adjacent to the pavement and this means that more and more trail users are squeezed into the paved space creating increase potential for user conflicts.  Based on a sneak peek at the new Harding to Royer segment, it looks like the required shoulders haven't been installed there, either. 
 
The City's standards require a minimum of 3 feet graded shoulders adjacent to each side of the pavement, with at least one side having decomposed granite.  I'm concerned that this is an important design feature that is being overlooked (and I sure hope construction contractors aren't being paid to construct the shoulders and simply not being required to put them in).  Is it possible for someone with the City to explain why the requisite shoulders are not being installed or, better yet, let's just get the trails constructed consistent with the City's standards. 
 
-Rob

--- On Mon, 9/28/09, Dour, Mike <mdour@roseville. ca.us> wrote:

From: Dour, Mike <mdour@roseville. ca.us>
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens
To: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 7:56 AM

 
Hi folks - A kindly reminder that the trail is not officially open yet because we have to install signs, striping, fencing and a safety railing. I'll post an email when the public is invited to enjoy the trail. Thanks everyone! Mike


From: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:bikingrosev ille@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Biking Roseville
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 8:17 AM
To: BikingRoseville Group
Subject: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

 
Hi Folks,

I rode the new Harding to Royer trail segment this morning. It runs between Folsom St. and the Harding to East St. segment of the Miner's Ravine trail. It's beautiful. Anyone else try it?

David




#862 From: Biking Roseville <bikingroseville@...>
Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:17 pm
Subject: Woodcreek trail update at Transportation Commission tomorrow
bikingroseville
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Folks,

The October Transportation Commission agenda includes an update on the Woodcreek Trail. I would like to go, but I have a conflicting appointment. Do you use the north area trails? If so, please attend the Transportation Commission meeting tomorrow (Tuesday) night to show your support.

7 PM at the City Council chambers, 311 Vernon.

Thanks,
David


#861 From: "Dour, Mike" <mdour@...>
Date: Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:18 pm
Subject: RE: Harding to Royer trail segment opens
michaeldour
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Greg - Good idea. Thanks much. Mike


From: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Mack
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 12:14 PM
To: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

 

Hi Mike,


To comment on the trail etiquette issue, I ride the trail in the summer, but use the road more in the winter due to slickness and lighting issues.  If this is the case for others, I wonder if it would be more beneficial to target this outreach in the spring when more people are thinking about it?  I think it is very necessary, but would like it to be as productive as possible.

Thanks for the info on the trail, it was very informative.

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Dour, Mike <mdour@roseville.ca.us> wrote:
 

Hi Rob -  Thanks for the email. I understand your concerns with more trail users since over the past year I've been receiving more comments about the potential for user conflicts.
 
The City standard for Class I trails is 10' paved, with 3' foot shoulders on each side. The shoulders are designed so that 2' is improved with AB or DG, and the other 1' of shoulder is dirt. The 3' shoulder width is a relatively new design... prior to 2007 the City standard was for 2' shoulders. Also, the DG requirement is new as of 2004. Prior to 2004 we did not use DG for our shoulders. Please note that this exceeds Caltrans Standards for Class I trails, which is 8' paved with 2' shoulders on each side.
 
The design work for Miners Ravine started in 2003. The Environmental Impact Report conducted in 2004 evaluated a shoulder design at 2' wide. When the standard changed in 2007, we considered changing the design of the Harding to Royer project. However, since the rest of the Miners Ravine Trail is designed under the old standard and since the EIR evaluated impacts under the old standard, we chose to leave the design as originally planned, which is basically the 2004 standard.
 
As I noted above, the City has been receiving comments about user conflicts out on the trail. We will be conducting public outreach beginning this winter on how to address this concern. We expect the result of this effort will be enhanced trail use/etiquette guidelines. If, after implementing new trail use guidelines and other feasible measures, we continue to see issues, then maybe we'll have to look into other measures such as shoulder widening. If we do that, we would want to widen shoulders for the entire length of the trail, not just a 1-mile segment out of 6 miles of trail. Any decision to take such action would be made in consideration of the relative costs and benefits.
 
Please let me know if you have any further questions. Thanks, mike
 
 


From: Rob F [mailto:bikesafenorcal@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:12 PM
To: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com; Dour, Mike
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

...



#860 From: Biking Roseville <bikingroseville@...>
Date: Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:38 am
Subject: Re: Harding to Royer trail segment opens
bikingroseville
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Mike,

Can you describe these user conflicts? I'd like to hope that cyclists are showing the utmost consideration for other trail users out on Roseville trails given how hard we fight for the same consideration from motorists out on the roadways. 

Thanks,
David




From: "Dour, Mike" <mdour@...>
To: Rob F <bikesafenorcal@...>; bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, October 16, 2009 10:17:28 AM
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

 

Hi Rob -  Thanks for the email. I understand your concerns with more trail users since over the past year I've been receiving more comments about the potential for user conflicts.
 
The City standard for Class I trails is 10' paved, with 3' foot shoulders on each side. The shoulders are designed so that 2' is improved with AB or DG, and the other 1' of shoulder is dirt. The 3' shoulder width is a relatively new design... prior to 2007 the City standard was for 2' shoulders. Also, the DG requirement is new as of 2004. Prior to 2004 we did not use DG for our shoulders. Please note that this exceeds Caltrans Standards for Class I trails, which is 8' paved with 2' shoulders on each side.
 
The design work for Miners Ravine started in 2003. The Environmental Impact Report conducted in 2004 evaluated a shoulder design at 2' wide. When the standard changed in 2007, we considered changing the design of the Harding to Royer project. However, since the rest of the Miners Ravine Trail is designed under the old standard and since the EIR evaluated impacts under the old standard, we chose to leave the design as originally planned, which is basically the 2004 standard.
 
As I noted above, the City has been receiving comments about user conflicts out on the trail. We will be conducting public outreach beginning this winter on how to address this concern. We expect the result of this effort will be enhanced trail use/etiquette guidelines. If, after implementing new trail use guidelines and other feasible measures, we continue to see issues, then maybe we'll have to look into other measures such as shoulder widening. If we do that, we would want to widen shoulders for the entire length of the trail, not just a 1-mile segment out of 6 miles of trail. Any decision to take such action would be made in consideration of the relative costs and benefits.
 
Please let me know if you have any further questions. Thanks, mike
 
 


From: Rob F [mailto:bikesafenor cal@yahoo. com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:12 PM
To: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com; Dour, Mike
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

I've had the opportunity over the past several months to spend some time on Roseville's Class I bike paths and it's been great to see so many people out there using the trail system... cyclists, walkers, runners, etc.  However, the Class I facilities that I've used in the City do not appear to meet the City's standards for graded areas adjacent to the pavement and this means that more and more trail users are squeezed into the paved space creating increase potential for user conflicts.  Based on a sneak peek at the new Harding to Royer segment, it looks like the required shoulders haven't been installed there, either. 
 
The City's standards require a minimum of 3 feet graded shoulders adjacent to each side of the pavement, with at least one side having decomposed granite.  I'm concerned that this is an important design feature that is being overlooked (and I sure hope construction contractors aren't being paid to construct the shoulders and simply not being required to put them in).  Is it possible for someone with the City to explain why the requisite shoulders are not being installed or, better yet, let's just get the trails constructed consistent with the City's standards. 
 
-Rob

--- On Mon, 9/28/09, Dour, Mike <mdour@roseville. ca.us> wrote:

From: Dour, Mike <mdour@roseville. ca.us>
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens
To: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 7:56 AM

 
Hi folks - A kindly reminder that the trail is not officially open yet because we have to install signs, striping, fencing and a safety railing. I'll post an email when the public is invited to enjoy the trail. Thanks everyone! Mike


From: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:bikingrosev ille@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Biking Roseville
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 8:17 AM
To: BikingRoseville Group
Subject: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

 
Hi Folks,

I rode the new Harding to Royer trail segment this morning. It runs between Folsom St. and the Harding to East St. segment of the Miner's Ravine trail. It's beautiful. Anyone else try it?

David




#859 From: Pascal Joly <pascal@...>
Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:28 pm
Subject: harding to royer bike trail
p_jolo
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Mike,
regarding the mileage marking, is there a plan to  include the last marker before Folsom Rd? Looks like there is a 1M marker right before the Harding intersection but I am wondering how accurate it is given the new trail segment. it is especially useful for us joggers :)
 
thanks,
 
Pascal


#858 From: Greg Mack <gcmack@...>
Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:14 pm
Subject: Re: Harding to Royer trail segment opens
kan7an
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Hi Mike,

To comment on the trail etiquette issue, I ride the trail in the summer, but use the road more in the winter due to slickness and lighting issues.  If this is the case for others, I wonder if it would be more beneficial to target this outreach in the spring when more people are thinking about it?  I think it is very necessary, but would like it to be as productive as possible.

Thanks for the info on the trail, it was very informative.

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Dour, Mike <mdour@...> wrote:
 

Hi Rob -  Thanks for the email. I understand your concerns with more trail users since over the past year I've been receiving more comments about the potential for user conflicts.
 
The City standard for Class I trails is 10' paved, with 3' foot shoulders on each side. The shoulders are designed so that 2' is improved with AB or DG, and the other 1' of shoulder is dirt. The 3' shoulder width is a relatively new design... prior to 2007 the City standard was for 2' shoulders. Also, the DG requirement is new as of 2004. Prior to 2004 we did not use DG for our shoulders. Please note that this exceeds Caltrans Standards for Class I trails, which is 8' paved with 2' shoulders on each side.
 
The design work for Miners Ravine started in 2003. The Environmental Impact Report conducted in 2004 evaluated a shoulder design at 2' wide. When the standard changed in 2007, we considered changing the design of the Harding to Royer project. However, since the rest of the Miners Ravine Trail is designed under the old standard and since the EIR evaluated impacts under the old standard, we chose to leave the design as originally planned, which is basically the 2004 standard.
 
As I noted above, the City has been receiving comments about user conflicts out on the trail. We will be conducting public outreach beginning this winter on how to address this concern. We expect the result of this effort will be enhanced trail use/etiquette guidelines. If, after implementing new trail use guidelines and other feasible measures, we continue to see issues, then maybe we'll have to look into other measures such as shoulder widening. If we do that, we would want to widen shoulders for the entire length of the trail, not just a 1-mile segment out of 6 miles of trail. Any decision to take such action would be made in consideration of the relative costs and benefits.
 
Please let me know if you have any further questions. Thanks, mike
 
 


From: Rob F [mailto:bikesafenorcal@...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:12 PM
To: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com; Dour, Mike
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

...



#857 From: "Dour, Mike" <mdour@...>
Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:54 pm
Subject: RE: Harding to Royer trail segment opens
michaeldour
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Rob - One other item. For the latest segment, we actually paved 11' wide. This was a decision of the contractor to improve their operational efficiency... the extra foot of AC came at no cost to the City. Thanks again. Mike


From: Dour, Mike
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 10:17 AM
To: 'Rob F'; bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

Hi Rob -  Thanks for the email. I understand your concerns with more trail users since over the past year I've been receiving more comments about the potential for user conflicts.
 
The City standard for Class I trails is 10' paved, with 3' foot shoulders on each side. The shoulders are designed so that 2' is improved with AB or DG, and the other 1' of shoulder is dirt. The 3' shoulder width is a relatively new design... prior to 2007 the City standard was for 2' shoulders. Also, the DG requirement is new as of 2004. Prior to 2004 we did not use DG for our shoulders. Please note that this exceeds Caltrans Standards for Class I trails, which is 8' paved with 2' shoulders on each side.
 
The design work for Miners Ravine started in 2003. The Environmental Impact Report conducted in 2004 evaluated a shoulder design at 2' wide. When the standard changed in 2007, we considered changing the design of the Harding to Royer project. However, since the rest of the Miners Ravine Trail is designed under the old standard and since the EIR evaluated impacts under the old standard, we chose to leave the design as originally planned, which is basically the 2004 standard.
 
As I noted above, the City has been receiving comments about user conflicts out on the trail. We will be conducting public outreach beginning this winter on how to address this concern. We expect the result of this effort will be enhanced trail use/etiquette guidelines. If, after implementing new trail use guidelines and other feasible measures, we continue to see issues, then maybe we'll have to look into other measures such as shoulder widening. If we do that, we would want to widen shoulders for the entire length of the trail, not just a 1-mile segment out of 6 miles of trail. Any decision to take such action would be made in consideration of the relative costs and benefits.
 
Please let me know if you have any further questions. Thanks, mike
 
 


From: Rob F [mailto:bikesafenorcal@...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:12 PM
To: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com; Dour, Mike
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

I've had the opportunity over the past several months to spend some time on Roseville's Class I bike paths and it's been great to see so many people out there using the trail system... cyclists, walkers, runners, etc.  However, the Class I facilities that I've used in the City do not appear to meet the City's standards for graded areas adjacent to the pavement and this means that more and more trail users are squeezed into the paved space creating increase potential for user conflicts.  Based on a sneak peek at the new Harding to Royer segment, it looks like the required shoulders haven't been installed there, either. 
 
The City's standards require a minimum of 3 feet graded shoulders adjacent to each side of the pavement, with at least one side having decomposed granite.  I'm concerned that this is an important design feature that is being overlooked (and I sure hope construction contractors aren't being paid to construct the shoulders and simply not being required to put them in).  Is it possible for someone with the City to explain why the requisite shoulders are not being installed or, better yet, let's just get the trails constructed consistent with the City's standards. 
 
-Rob

--- On Mon, 9/28/09, Dour, Mike <mdour@...> wrote:

From: Dour, Mike <mdour@...>
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens
To: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 7:56 AM

 
Hi folks - A kindly reminder that the trail is not officially open yet because we have to install signs, striping, fencing and a safety railing. I'll post an email when the public is invited to enjoy the trail. Thanks everyone! Mike


From: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:bikingrosev ille@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Biking Roseville
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 8:17 AM
To: BikingRoseville Group
Subject: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

 
Hi Folks,

I rode the new Harding to Royer trail segment this morning. It runs between Folsom St. and the Harding to East St. segment of the Miner's Ravine trail. It's beautiful. Anyone else try it?

David



#856 From: "Dour, Mike" <mdour@...>
Date: Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:17 pm
Subject: RE: Harding to Royer trail segment opens
michaeldour
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Rob -  Thanks for the email. I understand your concerns with more trail users since over the past year I've been receiving more comments about the potential for user conflicts.
 
The City standard for Class I trails is 10' paved, with 3' foot shoulders on each side. The shoulders are designed so that 2' is improved with AB or DG, and the other 1' of shoulder is dirt. The 3' shoulder width is a relatively new design... prior to 2007 the City standard was for 2' shoulders. Also, the DG requirement is new as of 2004. Prior to 2004 we did not use DG for our shoulders. Please note that this exceeds Caltrans Standards for Class I trails, which is 8' paved with 2' shoulders on each side.
 
The design work for Miners Ravine started in 2003. The Environmental Impact Report conducted in 2004 evaluated a shoulder design at 2' wide. When the standard changed in 2007, we considered changing the design of the Harding to Royer project. However, since the rest of the Miners Ravine Trail is designed under the old standard and since the EIR evaluated impacts under the old standard, we chose to leave the design as originally planned, which is basically the 2004 standard.
 
As I noted above, the City has been receiving comments about user conflicts out on the trail. We will be conducting public outreach beginning this winter on how to address this concern. We expect the result of this effort will be enhanced trail use/etiquette guidelines. If, after implementing new trail use guidelines and other feasible measures, we continue to see issues, then maybe we'll have to look into other measures such as shoulder widening. If we do that, we would want to widen shoulders for the entire length of the trail, not just a 1-mile segment out of 6 miles of trail. Any decision to take such action would be made in consideration of the relative costs and benefits.
 
Please let me know if you have any further questions. Thanks, mike
 
 


From: Rob F [mailto:bikesafenorcal@...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:12 PM
To: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com; Dour, Mike
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

I've had the opportunity over the past several months to spend some time on Roseville's Class I bike paths and it's been great to see so many people out there using the trail system... cyclists, walkers, runners, etc.  However, the Class I facilities that I've used in the City do not appear to meet the City's standards for graded areas adjacent to the pavement and this means that more and more trail users are squeezed into the paved space creating increase potential for user conflicts.  Based on a sneak peek at the new Harding to Royer segment, it looks like the required shoulders haven't been installed there, either. 
 
The City's standards require a minimum of 3 feet graded shoulders adjacent to each side of the pavement, with at least one side having decomposed granite.  I'm concerned that this is an important design feature that is being overlooked (and I sure hope construction contractors aren't being paid to construct the shoulders and simply not being required to put them in).  Is it possible for someone with the City to explain why the requisite shoulders are not being installed or, better yet, let's just get the trails constructed consistent with the City's standards. 
 
-Rob

--- On Mon, 9/28/09, Dour, Mike <mdour@...> wrote:

From: Dour, Mike <mdour@...>
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens
To: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 7:56 AM

 
Hi folks - A kindly reminder that the trail is not officially open yet because we have to install signs, striping, fencing and a safety railing. I'll post an email when the public is invited to enjoy the trail. Thanks everyone! Mike


From: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:bikingrosev ille@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Biking Roseville
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 8:17 AM
To: BikingRoseville Group
Subject: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

 
Hi Folks,

I rode the new Harding to Royer trail segment this morning. It runs between Folsom St. and the Harding to East St. segment of the Miner's Ravine trail. It's beautiful. Anyone else try it?

David



#855 From: "Dour, Mike" <mdour@...>
Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:13 pm
Subject: RE: Harding to Royer trail segment opens
michaeldour
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Rob - I will respond to your email within the next day or two. Thanks, Mike
 
 
 
Michael Dour
Alternative Transportation Analyst - Bikeways
Public Works - Alternative Transportation
City of Roseville
401 Vernon St.
Roseville, CA 95678
(916) 746-1304
(916) 746-1333 fax
www.roseville.ca.us/pw
City of Roseville


From: Rob F [mailto:bikesafenorcal@...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:12 PM
To: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com; Dour, Mike
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

I've had the opportunity over the past several months to spend some time on Roseville's Class I bike paths and it's been great to see so many people out there using the trail system... cyclists, walkers, runners, etc.  However, the Class I facilities that I've used in the City do not appear to meet the City's standards for graded areas adjacent to the pavement and this means that more and more trail users are squeezed into the paved space creating increase potential for user conflicts.  Based on a sneak peek at the new Harding to Royer segment, it looks like the required shoulders haven't been installed there, either. 
 
The City's standards require a minimum of 3 feet graded shoulders adjacent to each side of the pavement, with at least one side having decomposed granite.  I'm concerned that this is an important design feature that is being overlooked (and I sure hope construction contractors aren't being paid to construct the shoulders and simply not being required to put them in).  Is it possible for someone with the City to explain why the requisite shoulders are not being installed or, better yet, let's just get the trails constructed consistent with the City's standards. 
 
-Rob

--- On Mon, 9/28/09, Dour, Mike <mdour@...> wrote:

From: Dour, Mike <mdour@...>
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens
To: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 7:56 AM

 
Hi folks - A kindly reminder that the trail is not officially open yet because we have to install signs, striping, fencing and a safety railing. I'll post an email when the public is invited to enjoy the trail. Thanks everyone! Mike


From: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:bikingrosev ille@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Biking Roseville
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 8:17 AM
To: BikingRoseville Group
Subject: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

 
Hi Folks,

I rode the new Harding to Royer trail segment this morning. It runs between Folsom St. and the Harding to East St. segment of the Miner's Ravine trail. It's beautiful. Anyone else try it?

David



#854 From: Rob F <bikesafenorcal@...>
Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:11 pm
Subject: RE: Harding to Royer trail segment opens
bikesafenorcal
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
I've had the opportunity over the past several months to spend some time on Roseville's Class I bike paths and it's been great to see so many people out there using the trail system... cyclists, walkers, runners, etc.  However, the Class I facilities that I've used in the City do not appear to meet the City's standards for graded areas adjacent to the pavement and this means that more and more trail users are squeezed into the paved space creating increase potential for user conflicts.  Based on a sneak peek at the new Harding to Royer segment, it looks like the required shoulders haven't been installed there, either. 
 
The City's standards require a minimum of 3 feet graded shoulders adjacent to each side of the pavement, with at least one side having decomposed granite.  I'm concerned that this is an important design feature that is being overlooked (and I sure hope construction contractors aren't being paid to construct the shoulders and simply not being required to put them in).  Is it possible for someone with the City to explain why the requisite shoulders are not being installed or, better yet, let's just get the trails constructed consistent with the City's standards. 
 
-Rob

--- On Mon, 9/28/09, Dour, Mike <mdour@...> wrote:

From: Dour, Mike <mdour@...>
Subject: RE: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens
To: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 7:56 AM

 
Hi folks - A kindly reminder that the trail is not officially open yet because we have to install signs, striping, fencing and a safety railing. I'll post an email when the public is invited to enjoy the trail. Thanks everyone! Mike


From: bikingroseville@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:bikingrosev ille@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Biking Roseville
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 8:17 AM
To: BikingRoseville Group
Subject: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

 
Hi Folks,

I rode the new Harding to Royer trail segment this morning. It runs between Folsom St. and the Harding to East St. segment of the Miner's Ravine trail. It's beautiful. Anyone else try it?

David



#853 From: Biking Roseville <bikingroseville@...>
Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:44 pm
Subject: Cyclists: what image do we want to present?
bikingroseville
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
BikingRosevillains,

I received the two articles below recently via the SABA list. The first seeks to dispel the myth of cyclists being unrepentant law breakers. The second follows on that idea and suggests perhaps a new way to achieve the goal of encouraging more folks to give cycling a try. I must admit that the second article makes a lot of sense to me.



I'm looking forward to reading your reaction.

David


#852 From: "Dour, Mike" <mdour@...>
Date: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:56 pm
Subject: RE: Harding to Royer trail segment opens
michaeldour
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi folks - A kindly reminder that the trail is not officially open yet because we have to install signs, striping, fencing and a safety railing. I'll post an email when the public is invited to enjoy the trail. Thanks everyone! Mike


From: bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Biking Roseville
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 8:17 AM
To: BikingRoseville Group
Subject: [bikingroseville] Harding to Royer trail segment opens

 

Hi Folks,

I rode the new Harding to Royer trail segment this morning. It runs between Folsom St. and the Harding to East St. segment of the Miner's Ravine trail. It's beautiful. Anyone else try it?

David


#851 From: Biking Roseville <bikingroseville@...>
Date: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:16 pm
Subject: Harding to Royer trail segment opens
bikingroseville
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Folks,

I rode the new Harding to Royer trail segment this morning. It runs between Folsom St. and the Harding to East St. segment of the Miner's Ravine trail. It's beautiful. Anyone else try it?

David


#850 From: "kan7an" <gcmack@...>
Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:19 pm
Subject: Re: How do bicyclists feel about roundabouts?
kan7an
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
I also agree that roundabouts are a great way to reduce wait, and increase
throughput. However, I think that the problem with roundabouts is that most
people in this area do not have a lot of experience using them.  When people do
not know how to behave within a roundabout, it makes them nervous and can cause
accidents, or they go too fast, to slow, or they stop.  Once people are more
comfortable with the way to use one, it will be a great improvement.
--- In bikingroseville@yahoogroups.com, Bob Shanteau <RMShant@...> wrote:
>
> I have an opportunity today to influence a Caltrans decision about the
> use of roundabouts. I have heard differing stories about whether
> roundabouts are hard for bicyclists to use. Personally, I believe that
> roundabouts are preferable to stop signs. What do others think? Have any
> organizations adopted a formal policy?
>
> Bob Shanteau
> Transportation Engineering Liaison
> California Association of Bicycling Organizations
>

#849 From: bjhaake <bjhaake@...>
Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:02 pm
Subject: Re: How do bicyclists feel about roundabouts?
bjhaake
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
I like roundabouts because they minimize unnecessary wait times for both bicyclists and motorists. Less idling motors means better air for us!

Just need some education on how to use them, I guess (saw one motorist trying to go in the wrong way a few days ago and another one intentionally taking a short cut the wrong way yesterday...)

bjorn



--- On Tue, 9/22/09, Bob Shanteau <RMShant@...> wrote:

From: Bob Shanteau <RMShant@...>
Subject: [bikingroseville] How do bicyclists feel about roundabouts?
To: "CABOforum" <caboforum@googlegroups.com>
Cc: "CBC" <cbc@...>
Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 6:42 AM

 

I have an opportunity today to influence a Caltrans decision about the
use of roundabouts. I have heard differing stories about whether
roundabouts are hard for bicyclists to use. Personally, I believe that
roundabouts are preferable to stop signs. What do others think? Have any
organizations adopted a formal policy?

Bob Shanteau
Transportation Engineering Liaison
California Association of Bicycling Organizations



#848 From: Bob Shanteau <RMShant@...>
Date: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:42 pm
Subject: How do bicyclists feel about roundabouts?
bshanteau
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
I have an opportunity today to influence a Caltrans decision about the
use of roundabouts. I have heard differing stories about whether
roundabouts are hard for bicyclists to use. Personally, I believe that
roundabouts are preferable to stop signs. What do others think? Have any
organizations adopted a formal policy?

Bob Shanteau
Transportation Engineering Liaison
California Association of Bicycling Organizations

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