http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartameNM/message/973
little fish oil effects on diabetes:
Woodman Nov 2002: Murray 3.2.3 rmforall

Mar 3 2003 Thanks to Grady (Russell) and Christophersen for civil
and referenced comments. McDougall's 24 citations include 11
research studies from 1995 to 2002. His evidence that fish is
unhealthy food cover many important issues other than short-term
effects on diabetes.
His review overturned many of my uninformed beliefs, for instance:

"The final results are published in a study on the
effects of fish oil on artery closure, where the authors concluded,
"Fish oil treatment for 2 years does not promote favorable
changes in the diameter of atherosclerotic coronary arteries." (21)

"Furthermore, fish oils suppress the immune system, which can promote
cancer and increase susceptibility to viral infections; and can cause
severe bleeding. (22, 23)"

21) Sacks F. Controlled trial of fish oil for regression of human
coronary atherosclerosis. HARP Research Group.
J Am Coll Cardiol. 1995 Jun; 25(7): 1492-8.

22) Calder PC. Polyunsaturated fatty acids, inflammation, and
immunity. Lipids. 2001; 36: 1007-24.

I am a vegan, age 60, for 4 years now, but more pragmatic than
ideological, although I admit having an "animal rights" bias against
eating animals. I want to promote civil, evidence-based discussion,
in which we weigh both sides of every issue. For instance, genetic
factors in people vary with regard to the safety and value of foods,
as is well established for dairy, gluten, alcohol, aspartame, and many
food allergies. This post is also on my group
aspartameNM@yahoogroups.com .

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartameNM/message/959
aspartame review: methanol, formaldehyde, formic acid toxicity:
Murray 3.1.3 rmforall

Rich Murray, MA Room For All rmforall@...
1943 Otowi Road, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 USA 505-986-9103

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartameNM/messages
for 973 posts in a public searchable archive

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartame/ 615 member group

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartameNM/message/968
EU MEPs vote to re-evaluate aspartame and stevia:
Martini: Murray 2.21.3 rmforall

http://www.holisticmed.com/aspartame/scf2002-response.htm
Mark Gold exhaustively critiques European Commission Scientific
Committee on Food re aspartame (12.4.2): 59 pages, 230 references

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartameNM/message/910
formaldehyde & formic acid from methanol in aspartame:
Murray: 12.9.2 rmforall
***********************************************************************

From: Quentin Grady (t.russell@...)
Subject: Re: fish is unhealthy food: McDougall: Murray 3.2.3
rmforall
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Date: 2003-03-02 01:35:24 PST

On 2 Mar 2003 00:03:02 -0800, rmforall@... (Rich Murray) wrote:

>24) Hendra TJ. Effects of fish oil supplements in NIDDM subjects.
>Controlled study. Diabetes Care. 1990 Aug; 13(8): 821-9.

G'day G'day,

When people quote a single reference from thirteen years back there is
usually a reason.

Here is a more up to date study that reaches a conclusion that has
some points of similarity to Hendra's 1990 study.

The most notable one is that the adverse affects found on blood
glucose levels are described as short term. Hendra points out that
after six weeks the affects had disappeared.

Both studies found the long chain omega-3s improved triglycerides aka
triacylglycerols.

Notice that this study found NO effect on glycated haemoglobin, the
basis of the A1c test, one of the most widely accepted measures of
long term control for T2 diabetics even though the affects on fasting
blood glucose were highly significant.

1: Am J Clin Nutr 2002 Nov;76(5):1007-15
Effects of purified eicosapentaenoic and docosahexaenoic acids on
glycemic control, blood pressure, and serum lipids in type 2 diabetic
patients with treated hypertension.
Woodman RJ, Mori TA, Burke V, Puddey IB, Watts GF, Beilin LJ.
Department of Medicine, The University of Western Australia, Perth,
Australia. rwoodman@...

BACKGROUND: n-3 Fatty acids lower blood pressure, improve lipids, and
benefit other cardiovascular disease risk factors. Effects on glycemia
in patients with type 2 diabetes are uncertain.

OBJECTIVE: We determined whether purified eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA)
and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) have differential effects on glycemic
control, including insulin sensitivity and stimulated insulin
secretion; 24-h ambulatory blood pressure; and serum lipids in type 2
diabetic patients with treated hypertension.

DESIGN: In a double-blind, placebo-controlled trial of parallel
design, 59 subjects were randomly assigned to consume 4 g EPA, DHA, or
olive oil/d for 6 wk while continuing to consume their usual diet.

RESULTS: Thirty-nine men and 12 postmenopausal women with a mean (+/-
SE) age of 61.2 +/- 1.2 y completed the study.

In comparison with the change from baseline in fasting glucose in the
olive oil group, fasting glucose in the EPA and DHA groups increased
1.40 +/- 0.29 mmol/L (P = 0.002) and 0.98 +/- 0.29 mmol/L (P = 0.002),
respectively.

Neither EPA nor DHA had significant effects on glycated hemoglobin,
fasting insulin or C-peptide, insulin sensitivity or secretion, or
blood pressure.

Serum triacylglycerols in the EPA and DHA groups decreased 19% (P =
0.022) and 15% (P = 0.022), respectively.

There were no significant changes in serum total, LDL, or HDL
cholesterol, although HDL(2) cholesterol in the EPA and DHA groups
increased 16% (P = 0.026) and 12% (P = 0.05), respectively. HDL(3)
cholesterol decreased 11% (P = 0.026) with EPA supplementation.

CONCLUSIONS: EPA and DHA had similar benefits on lipids but adverse
effects on short-term glycemic control in hypertensive diabetic
patients. The overall implications for cardiovascular disease require
long-term evaluation.

Publication Types: Clinical Trial Randomized Controlled Trial
PMID: 12399272
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

From: Alf Christophersen
(alf.christophersen@...)
Subject: Re: fish is unhealthy food: McDougall: Murray 3.2.3 rmforall
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Date: 2003-03-02 08:15:46 PST

Fish consists of many other chemicals than just omega-3 acids. Some of
the other compounds are also protective against several bad effects of
daily diets. So proving omega-3 is not effective against harms from
glucose don't prove that fish is unhealthy. But, of course fanatic
vegans who tries to produce any proof against eating non-vegan food
has an easy time to make 'proof' pointing in their direction.

Please keep the agenda of the researcher in mind when reading such
articles focusing on bad sides of non-vegan food.

From: Quentin Grady (t.russell@...)
Subject: Re: fish is unhealthy food: McDougall: Murray 3.2.3
rmforall
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Date: 2003-03-02 11:35:36 PST

G'day G'day Alf,

Yes, it is a common reductionist error similar to equating coffee
with caffeine. In one study on coffee they studied eleven common
attributes which people thought which people thought were caused by
the caffeine and found only one of them disappeared when people had
decaf.

> So proving omega-3 is not effective against harms from
>glucose don't prove that fish is unhealthy.

Well of course it isn't even proved that omega-3s raise blood glucose
in NIDDMs. There have been many studies. The last meta study I saw
that correlated the extensive literature on the matter came to the
conclusion that there was no change on average but there was wide
variation.

>But, of course fanatic
>vegans who tries to produce any proof against eating non-vegan food
>has an easy time to make 'proof' pointing in their direction.

Is Murray McDougall a vegan?

>Please keep the agenda of the researcher in mind when reading such
>articles focusing on bad sides of non-vegan food.

As a T2 diabetic I have vested interest in finding the least biased
information. While the meta study was quite unequivocal in finding
no change in blood glucose from either fish consumption or fish oil
supplements, I find it interesting that there might be _temporary_
adverse affects and also that fasting blood glucose and A1c can give
different apparent outcomes.
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