Also wishing everyone a wonderful Thanksgiving Day.....Ren

--- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Man its so quiet here...I wonder why...I want to wish everyone a wonderful
Thanksgiving day and hope your all doing well...Keep coming back....
>

It seems to get that way sometimes. Happy Gratitude Day to you all. 



 "Loud Pipes Save Lives."
 

--- On Tue, 11/24/09, rednek53 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


From: rednek53 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [A New Beginning] Happy Thanksgiving...
To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 1:48 PM


 



Man its so quiet here...I wonder why...I want to wish everyone a wonderful
Thanksgiving day and hope your all doing well...Keep coming back....











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Man its so quiet here...I wonder why...I want to wish everyone a wonderful
Thanksgiving day and hope your all doing well...Keep coming back....

I think I wouldn't use either..I still have a problem with taking pain
meds...even with my back as bad as it is...Thanks for your post...Mike















--- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, radaryuppy <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> I don't think I would give up my sobriety knowing that the world was coming to
an end. I've become used to living in the real world without excuses for my
actions. One of my friends in the program had a wife who had cancer. When her
time came she even rejected pain medication because she wanted to die sober. I
don't think I have the courage to face a slow painful death the way she did but
if it is going to happen quickly I can do it.
>
> --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > I have a question...I went and seen 2012 yesterday..one part of the show is
where a father gets a call from his son who knows what is coming..He tell his
father who is on a cruise ship as a Jazz preformer..he hears the news which is
not good and when he hangs up..he orders a double shot of Jack on the rocks..His
friend asks him what the hell he is doing after 25 years on the wagon?  Now my
question is..Would you give up your sobriety knowing the world was DOOMED?
> > Be honest..I am still thinking what the heck I would do.....Thanks
> >
>

I don't think I would give up my sobriety knowing that the world was coming to
an end. I've become used to living in the real world without excuses for my
actions. One of my friends in the program had a wife who had cancer. When her
time came she even rejected pain medication because she wanted to die sober. I
don't think I have the courage to face a slow painful death the way she did but
if it is going to happen quickly I can do it.

--- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> I have a question...I went and seen 2012 yesterday..one part of the show is
where a father gets a call from his son who knows what is coming..He tell his
father who is on a cruise ship as a Jazz preformer..he hears the news which is
not good and when he hangs up..he orders a double shot of Jack on the rocks..His
friend asks him what the hell he is doing after 25 years on the wagon?  Now my
question is..Would you give up your sobriety knowing the world was DOOMED?
> Be honest..I am still thinking what the heck I would do.....Thanks
>

I have a question...I went and seen 2012 yesterday..one part of the show is
where a father gets a call from his son who knows what is coming..He tell his
father who is on a cruise ship as a Jazz preformer..he hears the news which is
not good and when he hangs up..he orders a double shot of Jack on the rocks..His
friend asks him what the hell he is doing after 25 years on the wagon?  Now my
question is..Would you give up your sobriety knowing the world was DOOMED?
Be honest..I am still thinking what the heck I would do.....Thanks

Am I missing something???...I dion't think we were to one trash talking ..just
trying to get the point accross that the statistics she was posting meant
nothing to me...I love hearing life experinces not quotes from a book....Thanks
guys for sticking with this group of brain washed souls....LOL

























--- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, radaryuppy <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> progress not perfection
>
> --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > That is a really nasty thing to say. Talk about hitting below the belt and
being critical and judgemental. You all subcribe these traits to me yet it is
you guys who get emotional and attack, not I.
> >
> > And furthermore it isn't true at all.
> >
> > I am sick to death of always feeling I have to defend myself and the facts
that I give you in this group.
> >
> > As far as I am concerned you are all brainwashed cult members who haven't
got an original thought or sentence in your collective heads.
> >
> > I am leaving this group because I am not wasting anymore time here.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > ~angelbrite~
> >
> > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, radaryuppy <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hmmm, The only people I see that are "forced" to go to 12 step programs
are the ones who are required by the judicial system because they have been
driving under the influence or because they have emotional problems while under
the enfluence. Even so, they are not "forced" by the 12 step program. They are
"forced" by their "friends and neighbors". Your logic is really skewed. You seem
to have it in for 12 step programs just because you let somebody who is in a 12
step program get into your pants. That reasoning is skewed as well.  Your logic
for considering alcoholism not a disease is also messed up.
> > >
> > > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > OMG!!!
> > > >
> > > > This is one of the most shocking statements I have ever heard in a
recovery group. I think that is an awful thing to say!
> > > >
> > > > People are coerced into 12-step groups (such as Alcoholics Anonymous)
and into 12-step treatment and even if you have not fully appreciated the
irrationality and enormity of 12-step coercion, I would have thought that you
have at least an intuitive sense that this coercion is wrong in several ways.
> > > >
> > > > Unless adjudicated incompetent, individuals are and should be held fully
responsible for their behaviour. Individuals should be free to choose to enter
12-step groups and 12-step treatment just as they should be free to choose other
self-help groups and treatments (or no treatment at all).
> > > >
> > > > Is it legal for the government to force people to attend 12-step groups
or treatment?
> > > >
> > > > No.
> > > > Uniformly, the courts have ruled that mandated 12-step attendance
violates the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
> > > >
> > > > Kind regards
> > > >
> > > > ~angelbrite~
> > > >
> > > > From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 9:45 AM
> > > > To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: Recovery Resources
> > > >
> > > > I use to think that too about people being forced to be at meetings..But
I was told that it is planting the seed of recovery and maybe some one will hear
their story and make that big decision to take the first step..I just say let it
be and let um go..they can see others who have made it and are very happy with
their lives....Mike
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

progress not perfection

--- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@...> wrote:
>
>
> That is a really nasty thing to say. Talk about hitting below the belt and
being critical and judgemental. You all subcribe these traits to me yet it is
you guys who get emotional and attack, not I.
>
> And furthermore it isn't true at all.
>
> I am sick to death of always feeling I have to defend myself and the facts
that I give you in this group.
>
> As far as I am concerned you are all brainwashed cult members who haven't got
an original thought or sentence in your collective heads.
>
> I am leaving this group because I am not wasting anymore time here.
>
> Regards
>
> ~angelbrite~
>
> --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, radaryuppy <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Hmmm, The only people I see that are "forced" to go to 12 step programs are
the ones who are required by the judicial system because they have been driving
under the influence or because they have emotional problems while under the
enfluence. Even so, they are not "forced" by the 12 step program. They are
"forced" by their "friends and neighbors". Your logic is really skewed. You seem
to have it in for 12 step programs just because you let somebody who is in a 12
step program get into your pants. That reasoning is skewed as well.  Your logic
for considering alcoholism not a disease is also messed up.
> >
> > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > OMG!!!
> > >
> > > This is one of the most shocking statements I have ever heard in a
recovery group. I think that is an awful thing to say!
> > >
> > > People are coerced into 12-step groups (such as Alcoholics Anonymous) and
into 12-step treatment and even if you have not fully appreciated the
irrationality and enormity of 12-step coercion, I would have thought that you
have at least an intuitive sense that this coercion is wrong in several ways.
> > >
> > > Unless adjudicated incompetent, individuals are and should be held fully
responsible for their behaviour. Individuals should be free to choose to enter
12-step groups and 12-step treatment just as they should be free to choose other
self-help groups and treatments (or no treatment at all).
> > >
> > > Is it legal for the government to force people to attend 12-step groups or
treatment?
> > >
> > > No.
> > > Uniformly, the courts have ruled that mandated 12-step attendance violates
the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
> > >
> > > Kind regards
> > >
> > > ~angelbrite~
> > >
> > > From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 9:45 AM
> > > To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: Recovery Resources
> > >
> > > I use to think that too about people being forced to be at meetings..But I
was told that it is planting the seed of recovery and maybe some one will hear
their story and make that big decision to take the first step..I just say let it
be and let um go..they can see others who have made it and are very happy with
their lives....Mike
> > >
> >
>

My brain needed washing.



 "Loud Pipes Save Lives."
 

--- On Thu, 11/12/09, Angelique <angelique7@...> wrote:


From: Angelique <angelique7@...>
Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: 12 Step Coercion
To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 12:50 PM


 




That is a really nasty thing to say. Talk about hitting below the belt and being
critical and judgemental. You all subcribe these traits to me yet it is you guys
who get emotional and attack, not I.

And furthermore it isn't true at all.

I am sick to death of always feeling I have to defend myself and the facts that
I give you in this group.

As far as I am concerned you are all brainwashed cult members who haven't got an
original thought or sentence in your collective heads.

I am leaving this group because I am not wasting anymore time here.

Regards

~angelbrite~

--- In anewbeginning2@ yahoogroups. com, radaryuppy <no_reply@.. .> wrote:
>
> Hmmm, The only people I see that are "forced" to go to 12 step programs are
the ones who are required by the judicial system because they have been driving
under the influence or because they have emotional problems while under the
enfluence. Even so, they are not "forced" by the 12 step program. They are
"forced" by their "friends and neighbors". Your logic is really skewed. You seem
to have it in for 12 step programs just because you let somebody who is in a 12
step program get into your pants. That reasoning is skewed as well. Your logic
for considering alcoholism not a disease is also messed up.
>
> --- In anewbeginning2@ yahoogroups. com, "Angelique" <angelique7@ > wrote:
> >
> >
> > OMG!!!
> >
> > This is one of the most shocking statements I have ever heard in a recovery
group. I think that is an awful thing to say!
> >
> > People are coerced into 12-step groups (such as Alcoholics Anonymous) and
into 12-step treatment and even if you have not fully appreciated the
irrationality and enormity of 12-step coercion, I would have thought that you
have at least an intuitive sense that this coercion is wrong in several ways.
> >
> > Unless adjudicated incompetent, individuals are and should be held fully
responsible for their behaviour. Individuals should be free to choose to enter
12-step groups and 12-step treatment just as they should be free to choose other
self-help groups and treatments (or no treatment at all).
> >
> > Is it legal for the government to force people to attend 12-step groups or
treatment?
> >
> > No.
> > Uniformly, the courts have ruled that mandated 12-step attendance violates
the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > ~angelbrite~
> >
> > From: anewbeginning2@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anewbeginning2@ yahoogroups.
com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 9:45 AM
> > To: anewbeginning2@ yahoogroups. com
> > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: Recovery Resources
> >
> > I use to think that too about people being forced to be at meetings..But I
was told that it is planting the seed of recovery and maybe some one will hear
their story and make that big decision to take the first step..I just say let it
be and let um go..they can see others who have made it and are very happy with
their lives....Mike
> >
>











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hmmm, I've felt like the one who was under attack here.

--- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@...> wrote:
>
>
> That is a really nasty thing to say. Talk about hitting below the belt and
being critical and judgemental. You all subcribe these traits to me yet it is
you guys who get emotional and attack, not I.
>
> And furthermore it isn't true at all.
>
> I am sick to death of always feeling I have to defend myself and the facts
that I give you in this group.
>
> As far as I am concerned you are all brainwashed cult members who haven't got
an original thought or sentence in your collective heads.
>
> I am leaving this group because I am not wasting anymore time here.
>
> Regards
>
> ~angelbrite~
>
> --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, radaryuppy <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Hmmm, The only people I see that are "forced" to go to 12 step programs are
the ones who are required by the judicial system because they have been driving
under the influence or because they have emotional problems while under the
enfluence. Even so, they are not "forced" by the 12 step program. They are
"forced" by their "friends and neighbors". Your logic is really skewed. You seem
to have it in for 12 step programs just because you let somebody who is in a 12
step program get into your pants. That reasoning is skewed as well.  Your logic
for considering alcoholism not a disease is also messed up.
> >
> > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > OMG!!!
> > >
> > > This is one of the most shocking statements I have ever heard in a
recovery group. I think that is an awful thing to say!
> > >
> > > People are coerced into 12-step groups (such as Alcoholics Anonymous) and
into 12-step treatment and even if you have not fully appreciated the
irrationality and enormity of 12-step coercion, I would have thought that you
have at least an intuitive sense that this coercion is wrong in several ways.
> > >
> > > Unless adjudicated incompetent, individuals are and should be held fully
responsible for their behaviour. Individuals should be free to choose to enter
12-step groups and 12-step treatment just as they should be free to choose other
self-help groups and treatments (or no treatment at all).
> > >
> > > Is it legal for the government to force people to attend 12-step groups or
treatment?
> > >
> > > No.
> > > Uniformly, the courts have ruled that mandated 12-step attendance violates
the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
> > >
> > > Kind regards
> > >
> > > ~angelbrite~
> > >
> > > From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 9:45 AM
> > > To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: Recovery Resources
> > >
> > > I use to think that too about people being forced to be at meetings..But I
was told that it is planting the seed of recovery and maybe some one will hear
their story and make that big decision to take the first step..I just say let it
be and let um go..they can see others who have made it and are very happy with
their lives....Mike
> > >
> >
>

That is a really nasty thing to say. Talk about hitting below the belt and being
critical and judgemental. You all subcribe these traits to me yet it is you guys
who get emotional and attack, not I.

And furthermore it isn't true at all.

I am sick to death of always feeling I have to defend myself and the facts that
I give you in this group.

As far as I am concerned you are all brainwashed cult members who haven't got an
original thought or sentence in your collective heads.

I am leaving this group because I am not wasting anymore time here.

Regards

~angelbrite~

--- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, radaryuppy <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Hmmm, The only people I see that are "forced" to go to 12 step programs are
the ones who are required by the judicial system because they have been driving
under the influence or because they have emotional problems while under the
enfluence. Even so, they are not "forced" by the 12 step program. They are
"forced" by their "friends and neighbors". Your logic is really skewed. You seem
to have it in for 12 step programs just because you let somebody who is in a 12
step program get into your pants. That reasoning is skewed as well.  Your logic
for considering alcoholism not a disease is also messed up.
>
> --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > OMG!!!
> >
> > This is one of the most shocking statements I have ever heard in a recovery
group. I think that is an awful thing to say!
> >
> > People are coerced into 12-step groups (such as Alcoholics Anonymous) and
into 12-step treatment and even if you have not fully appreciated the
irrationality and enormity of 12-step coercion, I would have thought that you
have at least an intuitive sense that this coercion is wrong in several ways.
> >
> > Unless adjudicated incompetent, individuals are and should be held fully
responsible for their behaviour. Individuals should be free to choose to enter
12-step groups and 12-step treatment just as they should be free to choose other
self-help groups and treatments (or no treatment at all).
> >
> > Is it legal for the government to force people to attend 12-step groups or
treatment?
> >
> > No.
> > Uniformly, the courts have ruled that mandated 12-step attendance violates
the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > ~angelbrite~
> >
> > From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of rednek53
> > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 9:45 AM
> > To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: Recovery Resources
> >
> > I use to think that too about people being forced to be at meetings..But I
was told that it is planting the seed of recovery and maybe some one will hear
their story and make that big decision to take the first step..I just say let it
be and let um go..they can see others who have made it and are very happy with
their lives....Mike
> >
>

I'l share some ESH.

In a couple of months I'll have 15 years of continuous sobriety through the
program of AA. Before the program I couldn't go 2 days without drinking. We were
living in a run down old house and we could barely afford that. I was about to
lose my job again because i was always either still drunk from the night before
or at least had a bad hangover. People in the program loved me until I could
love myself. They showed me a new way of living where I could face life on
life's terms. Sure I've seen some bad things through the years that I don't like
or agree with but overall it's an excellent program that has saved millions of
lives including my own. I think differently now than I did 15 years ago. There
is trust in my marriage. I have a good job. I own a house with some land in the
country. My kids talk to me and are glad to see me. People at the AA group talk
to me are glad to see me. I could quit AA tomorrow and nobody would "coerce" me
into going to meetings - it is strictly voluntary. The would probably give me a
phone call out of concern for my welfare but that would be the limit of it. I
tend to get harsh when someone says bad things about the program because it has
given me a new life. If I have said anything that offends anyone I appologize.
Let  me know and I will leave the group

--- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> And let me say this...I want to hear real life things..not from surveys..I had
a councelor in detox that would not share her story with us,..and she is the one
who kept saying...you'll be back..you'll relapse..and you want to know
why???..Because I was smiling all the time..I was happy...Never thinking that it
was the first time in 25 years I wasn't stoned in some way...The other
councelors shared what worked for them..there was not ..oh look at this
statistic or that survey..it was REAL life things...this is what this group is
about...Not finding things that don't work, but finding things that do...Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes your right ..it is negative and thats not what were about..were here to
help people by letting them use what ever recorce they want while using what
people like us have used and has worked for us...Where do I get my statistics..I
lived it...I can only answer for me..I don't care what the so called know it
alls whine about..It worked for me...But not how the big book says..But the
steps are just guide lines..not laws...I still will send people to AA and NA or
SOS or where ever they feel it will help them..and until you have something
positive to say about helping  and not bashing..I am not replying to the posts
that has anything to do with this...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "a2hearts" <oldcrowwoman2002@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't know why she left. You never know who is standing next to you that
has or may have gone  through  consequences that is stated here and have changed
their life around. And who are we to judge.. And to be judgemental.  There is a
choice deal with the law or go to a meeting. There are success stories.  I don't
see this topic as a debate. It feels negative to me................ Right
redneck, I hope she did not leave because of this...... too
> > >
> > > I want to fly with the Eagles.
> > >
> > > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > LOL..looks like were losing someone from our group and I hope it is not
about whats going on here with the debate...
> > > >
> > > > Yank their lience and they still drive..
> > > >
> > > > instal a breathalyser interlocks system they ghet someone else to
blow...Take their car away and the whole family suffers..
> > > > Its not as simple as you think it is..empowering is one thing but
bashing something you don't agree with isn't helping either. It is one tool in a
very complicated world of addiction...
> > > > Sending them to AA is the first step..and if they continue to abuse..I
agree Lock their ass's up..A person drunk in a car is as deadly as someone with
a loaded weapon.
> > > > If you want to empower someone you don't degrade the other side that
shows pettiness..Make suggestions to them..give them some direction..give them
tools to work with...
> > > >
> > > > I hope the other person doesn'r leave because of this....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It is not just AA or nothing. I am trying to empower people ~ not tear
them down!
> > > > >
> > > > > If someone drives drunk repeatedly, yank their license and throw their
ass in jail. Force them to install breathalyser interlocks on their dime if they
want to drive. How many drunk drivers have been through AA just long enough to
satisfy the courts and return to doing the same thing? They keep lowering the
BAC to appear tough on crime, then ship them off to AA to appear compassionate.
All they're doing is creating this revolving door justice system.
> > > > > http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_13737860?source=most_emailed
> > > > >
> > > > > The Brandsma study that showed alcoholics mandated to AA ended up
binge drinking five times as much as those who received no treatment, nine times
as much as those who received rational emotive therapy.
> > > > > http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#Brandsma
> > > > >
> > > > > How would you feel if drunk drivers were mandated to become Muslims.
It's against their religion to drink, so shouldn't we force them to convert?
> > > > >
> > > > > As I previously pointed out, AA has been declared "religious in
nature" by several higher courts and that mandated AA violates the Establishment
Clause of the Constitution.
> > > > >
> > > > > The best available research evidence, and evidence from AA's own
triennial surveys, indicates that AA's results are no better than the rate of
spontaneous remission, that is, that it's no better than no treatment at all.
> > > > >
> > > > > The fact that it has been shown that the program often does more harm
than good for a great many people will never be discussed. As soon as I offer
some criticism of the program here you get upset. That is awfully reminiscent of
Groupthink.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > >
> > > > > From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 2:59 PM
> > > > > To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: 12 Step Coercion
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > OMG!!!!!!
> > > > > Sorry you feel that way..But I know people who were mandated and hated
it only to return when they knew it was what they needed and to try what ever it
took to get sober...they have a choice..Go to dam jail or go to meetings and
sit..how hard can it be.....yes they do have a choice....Just because you don't
like it doesn't make it wrong..I see you have a problem with the 12 step
way..and like I said before ..we don't condem others who do...and the courts
have to do something to get the drunks off the roads..if only one of them gets
it..thats good enough for me..Better than a dead family lying in the road...If
you have a problem with the 12 steps..don't..i repeat don't do them..Now what
would you do with a repeat offender? tell him your not going to screw with his
Constitutional rights..smack him on his wrists ....Don't those of us have the
right to feel safe on the roads and that its a small price to pay mandating them
to go to meetings...and to suffer thru those awful 12 steps that corrupt the
fabric of our great country...lighten up and lets just worry about helping
people instead of finding fault in the the process that you don't like..enough
negitive talk....its getting old with this same old stuff...we are here to
help..not tear down....Thanks
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OMG!!!!!!
> > > > > > Sorry you feel that way..But I know people who were mandated and
hated it only to return when they knew it was what they needed and to try what
ever it took to get sober...they have a choice..Go to dam jail or go to meetings
and sit..how hard can it be.....yes they do have a choice....Just because you
don't like it doesn't make it wrong..I see you have a problem with the 12 step
way..and like I said before ..we don't condem others who do...and the courts
have to do something to get the drunks off the roads..if only one of them gets
it..thats good enough for me..Better than a dead family lying in the road...If
you have a problem with the 12 steps..don't..i repeat don't do them..Now what
would you do with a repeat offender?  tell him your not going to screw with his
Constitutional rights..smack him on his wrists ....Don't those of us have the
right to feel safe on the roads and that its a small price to pay mandating them
to go to meetings...and to suffer thru those awful 12 steps that corrupt the
fabric of our great country...lighten up and lets just worry about helping
people instead of finding fault in the the process that you don't like..enough
negitive talk....its getting old with this same old stuff...we are here to
help..not tear down....Thanks
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@>
wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > OMG!!!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is one of the most shocking statements I have ever heard in a
recovery group. I think that is an awful thing to say!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > People are coerced into 12-step groups (such as Alcoholics
Anonymous) and into 12-step treatment and even if you have not fully appreciated
the irrationality and enormity of 12-step coercion, I would have thought that
you have at least an intuitive sense that this coercion is wrong in several
ways.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Unless adjudicated incompetent, individuals are and should be held
fully responsible for their behaviour. Individuals should be free to choose to
enter 12-step groups and 12-step treatment just as they should be free to choose
other self-help groups and treatments (or no treatment at all).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is it legal for the government to force people to attend 12-step
groups or treatment?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No.
> > > > > > > Uniformly, the courts have ruled that mandated 12-step attendance
violates the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kind regards
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ~angelbrite~
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 9:45 AM
> > > > > > > To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: Recovery Resources
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I use to think that too about people being forced to be at
meetings..But I was told that it is planting the seed of recovery and maybe some
one will hear their story and make that big decision to take the first step..I
just say let it be and let um go..they can see others who have made it and are
very happy with their lives....Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

A Judge can't force you to do anything but to sit in a cell. If anyone is court
ordered it is because they agreed to it in writing as part of a plea bargain or
parole plan. PERIOD!!!!
 
In 1997 the U.S. Supreme Court ruled 12 Step Programs a form of religion and
therefore the government force you to participate.  However if you enter into a
plea deal or agree in a parole plan to do so it is allowed.
 
Being the way most of use are we will agree to anything to get out or stay out
of jail and like all the deals most of have made the moment we get what we want
we try to renege on our promises.  The next thing you know we're sitting in a
room hollering about being a political prisoner or something.
 
the moment our using of whatever crosses the line from being recreational to
criminal we loose certain Rights have to give someone say so over much of our
lives for whatever length of time.
 
The only choice we have is to do the time for our crimes or let someone try to
show us a better way ti live.
 
If anyone doesn't want to keep the bargain they made to get out or stay  of a
cage, then don't. Just shut up and do things your way. Guess what the courts are
use to it and have a solution to your dope fiend attitude.



 "Loud Pipes Save Lives."



 "Loud Pipes Save Lives."
 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And let me say this...I want to hear real life things..not from surveys..I had a
councelor in detox that would not share her story with us,..and she is the one
who kept saying...you'll be back..you'll relapse..and you want to know
why???..Because I was smiling all the time..I was happy...Never thinking that it
was the first time in 25 years I wasn't stoned in some way...The other
councelors shared what worked for them..there was not ..oh look at this
statistic or that survey..it was REAL life things...this is what this group is
about...Not finding things that don't work, but finding things that do...Thanks














--- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Yes your right ..it is negative and thats not what were about..were here to
help people by letting them use what ever recorce they want while using what
people like us have used and has worked for us...Where do I get my statistics..I
lived it...I can only answer for me..I don't care what the so called know it
alls whine about..It worked for me...But not how the big book says..But the
steps are just guide lines..not laws...I still will send people to AA and NA or
SOS or where ever they feel it will help them..and until you have something
positive to say about helping  and not bashing..I am not replying to the posts
that has anything to do with this...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "a2hearts" <oldcrowwoman2002@> wrote:
> >
> > I don't know why she left. You never know who is standing next to you that
has or may have gone  through  consequences that is stated here and have changed
their life around. And who are we to judge.. And to be judgemental.  There is a
choice deal with the law or go to a meeting. There are success stories.  I don't
see this topic as a debate. It feels negative to me................ Right
redneck, I hope she did not leave because of this...... too
> >
> > I want to fly with the Eagles.
> >
> > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > LOL..looks like were losing someone from our group and I hope it is not
about whats going on here with the debate...
> > >
> > > Yank their lience and they still drive..
> > >
> > > instal a breathalyser interlocks system they ghet someone else to
blow...Take their car away and the whole family suffers..
> > > Its not as simple as you think it is..empowering is one thing but bashing
something you don't agree with isn't helping either. It is one tool in a very
complicated world of addiction...
> > > Sending them to AA is the first step..and if they continue to abuse..I
agree Lock their ass's up..A person drunk in a car is as deadly as someone with
a loaded weapon.
> > > If you want to empower someone you don't degrade the other side that shows
pettiness..Make suggestions to them..give them some direction..give them tools
to work with...
> > >
> > > I hope the other person doesn'r leave because of this....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It is not just AA or nothing. I am trying to empower people ~ not tear
them down!
> > > >
> > > > If someone drives drunk repeatedly, yank their license and throw their
ass in jail. Force them to install breathalyser interlocks on their dime if they
want to drive. How many drunk drivers have been through AA just long enough to
satisfy the courts and return to doing the same thing? They keep lowering the
BAC to appear tough on crime, then ship them off to AA to appear compassionate.
All they're doing is creating this revolving door justice system.
> > > > http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_13737860?source=most_emailed
> > > >
> > > > The Brandsma study that showed alcoholics mandated to AA ended up binge
drinking five times as much as those who received no treatment, nine times as
much as those who received rational emotive therapy.
> > > > http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#Brandsma
> > > >
> > > > How would you feel if drunk drivers were mandated to become Muslims.
It's against their religion to drink, so shouldn't we force them to convert?
> > > >
> > > > As I previously pointed out, AA has been declared "religious in nature"
by several higher courts and that mandated AA violates the Establishment Clause
of the Constitution.
> > > >
> > > > The best available research evidence, and evidence from AA's own
triennial surveys, indicates that AA's results are no better than the rate of
spontaneous remission, that is, that it's no better than no treatment at all.
> > > >
> > > > The fact that it has been shown that the program often does more harm
than good for a great many people will never be discussed. As soon as I offer
some criticism of the program here you get upset. That is awfully reminiscent of
Groupthink.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > > From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 2:59 PM
> > > > To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: 12 Step Coercion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > OMG!!!!!!
> > > > Sorry you feel that way..But I know people who were mandated and hated
it only to return when they knew it was what they needed and to try what ever it
took to get sober...they have a choice..Go to dam jail or go to meetings and
sit..how hard can it be.....yes they do have a choice....Just because you don't
like it doesn't make it wrong..I see you have a problem with the 12 step
way..and like I said before ..we don't condem others who do...and the courts
have to do something to get the drunks off the roads..if only one of them gets
it..thats good enough for me..Better than a dead family lying in the road...If
you have a problem with the 12 steps..don't..i repeat don't do them..Now what
would you do with a repeat offender? tell him your not going to screw with his
Constitutional rights..smack him on his wrists ....Don't those of us have the
right to feel safe on the roads and that its a small price to pay mandating them
to go to meetings...and to suffer thru those awful 12 steps that corrupt the
fabric of our great country...lighten up and lets just worry about helping
people instead of finding fault in the the process that you don't like..enough
negitive talk....its getting old with this same old stuff...we are here to
help..not tear down....Thanks
> > > >
> > > > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > OMG!!!!!!
> > > > > Sorry you feel that way..But I know people who were mandated and hated
it only to return when they knew it was what they needed and to try what ever it
took to get sober...they have a choice..Go to dam jail or go to meetings and
sit..how hard can it be.....yes they do have a choice....Just because you don't
like it doesn't make it wrong..I see you have a problem with the 12 step
way..and like I said before ..we don't condem others who do...and the courts
have to do something to get the drunks off the roads..if only one of them gets
it..thats good enough for me..Better than a dead family lying in the road...If
you have a problem with the 12 steps..don't..i repeat don't do them..Now what
would you do with a repeat offender?  tell him your not going to screw with his
Constitutional rights..smack him on his wrists ....Don't those of us have the
right to feel safe on the roads and that its a small price to pay mandating them
to go to meetings...and to suffer thru those awful 12 steps that corrupt the
fabric of our great country...lighten up and lets just worry about helping
people instead of finding fault in the the process that you don't like..enough
negitive talk....its getting old with this same old stuff...we are here to
help..not tear down....Thanks
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@>
wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OMG!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is one of the most shocking statements I have ever heard in a
recovery group. I think that is an awful thing to say!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > People are coerced into 12-step groups (such as Alcoholics
Anonymous) and into 12-step treatment and even if you have not fully appreciated
the irrationality and enormity of 12-step coercion, I would have thought that
you have at least an intuitive sense that this coercion is wrong in several
ways.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Unless adjudicated incompetent, individuals are and should be held
fully responsible for their behaviour. Individuals should be free to choose to
enter 12-step groups and 12-step treatment just as they should be free to choose
other self-help groups and treatments (or no treatment at all).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is it legal for the government to force people to attend 12-step
groups or treatment?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No.
> > > > > > Uniformly, the courts have ruled that mandated 12-step attendance
violates the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kind regards
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ~angelbrite~
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 9:45 AM
> > > > > > To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: Recovery Resources
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I use to think that too about people being forced to be at
meetings..But I was told that it is planting the seed of recovery and maybe some
one will hear their story and make that big decision to take the first step..I
just say let it be and let um go..they can see others who have made it and are
very happy with their lives....Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Here in Minneapolis and St Paul court systems offers the options of differnt
recovery program's. Not just AA. I just recently started going to a women's aa
group. I can assure you I don't buy into everything in the program. The beauty
for me is I am allowed to make choices. I refuse to put myself in a box.
Sobriety is a individual process. And their is no right or wrong way. What we do
have in common is drug or alcoholism in our lives. When I start to tear down a
program or a person I put myself in a negative way............its a sure thing
of being close to picking that drink.....

The common goal here is being sober.

--- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@...> wrote:
>
>
> I don't think that there is anyone here that wants a member to leave a support
group.
>
> I have only presented facts here regarding 12 Step Coercion and I have backed
the facts up with evidence and links.
>
> Everything else that I am hearing in defence is just AA speak. I can hear
exactly the same stuff in any meeting that I attend.
>
> For the approximately 3-5% of you that AA actually does work for ~ I am glad,
but you are definitely in the minority.
>
> It is not the AA way or nothing else.
> It is not AA or jails, institutions or death.
>
> Kind regards
>
> ~angelbrite~
>
> From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of a2hearts
> Sent: Thursday, 12 November 2009 3:04 PM
> To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: 12 Step Coercion
>
>
> I don't know why she left. You never know who is standing next to you that has
or may have gone through consequences that is stated here and have changed their
life around. And who are we to judge.. And to be judgemental. There is a choice
deal with the law or go to a meeting. There are success stories. I don't see
this topic as a debate. It feels negative to me................ Right redneck, I
hope she did not leave because of this...... too
>
> I want to fly with the Eagles.
>
> --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > LOL..looks like were losing someone from our group and I hope it is not
about whats going on here with the debate...
> >
> > Yank their lience and they still drive..
> >
> > instal a breathalyser interlocks system they ghet someone else to
blow...Take their car away and the whole family suffers..
> > Its not as simple as you think it is..empowering is one thing but bashing
something you don't agree with isn't helping either. It is one tool in a very
complicated world of addiction...
> > Sending them to AA is the first step..and if they continue to abuse..I agree
Lock their ass's up..A person drunk in a car is as deadly as someone with a
loaded weapon.
> > If you want to empower someone you don't degrade the other side that shows
pettiness..Make suggestions to them..give them some direction..give them tools
to work with...
> >
> > I hope the other person doesn'r leave because of this....
> >
>
> --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "a2hearts" <oldcrowwoman2002@> wrote:
> >
> > I don't know why she left. You never know who is standing next to you that
has or may have gone  through  consequences that is stated here and have changed
their life around. And who are we to judge.. And to be judgemental.  There is a
choice deal with the law or go to a meeting. There are success stories.  I don't
see this topic as a debate. It feels negative to me................ Right
redneck, I hope she did not leave because of this...... too
> >
> > I want to fly with the Eagles.
> >
> > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > LOL..looks like were losing someone from our group and I hope it is not
about whats going on here with the debate...
> > >
> > > Yank their lience and they still drive..
> > >
> > > instal a breathalyser interlocks system they ghet someone else to
blow...Take their car away and the whole family suffers..
> > > Its not as simple as you think it is..empowering is one thing but bashing
something you don't agree with isn't helping either. It is one tool in a very
complicated world of addiction...
> > > Sending them to AA is the first step..and if they continue to abuse..I
agree Lock their ass's up..A person drunk in a car is as deadly as someone with
a loaded weapon.
> > > If you want to empower someone you don't degrade the other side that shows
pettiness..Make suggestions to them..give them some direction..give them tools
to work with...
> > >
> > > I hope the other person doesn'r leave because of this....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It is not just AA or nothing. I am trying to empower people ~ not tear
them down!
> > > >
> > > > If someone drives drunk repeatedly, yank their license and throw their
ass in jail. Force them to install breathalyser interlocks on their dime if they
want to drive. How many drunk drivers have been through AA just long enough to
satisfy the courts and return to doing the same thing? They keep lowering the
BAC to appear tough on crime, then ship them off to AA to appear compassionate.
All they're doing is creating this revolving door justice system.
> > > > http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_13737860?source=most_emailed
> > > >
> > > > The Brandsma study that showed alcoholics mandated to AA ended up binge
drinking five times as much as those who received no treatment, nine times as
much as those who received rational emotive therapy.
> > > > http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#Brandsma
> > > >
> > > > How would you feel if drunk drivers were mandated to become Muslims.
It's against their religion to drink, so shouldn't we force them to convert?
> > > >
> > > > As I previously pointed out, AA has been declared "religious in nature"
by several higher courts and that mandated AA violates the Establishment Clause
of the Constitution.
> > > >
> > > > The best available research evidence, and evidence from AA's own
triennial surveys, indicates that AA's results are no better than the rate of
spontaneous remission, that is, that it's no better than no treatment at all.
> > > >
> > > > The fact that it has been shown that the program often does more harm
than good for a great many people will never be discussed. As soon as I offer
some criticism of the program here you get upset. That is awfully reminiscent of
Groupthink.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > > From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 2:59 PM
> > > > To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: 12 Step Coercion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > OMG!!!!!!
> > > > Sorry you feel that way..But I know people who were mandated and hated
it only to return when they knew it was what they needed and to try what ever it
took to get sober...they have a choice..Go to dam jail or go to meetings and
sit..how hard can it be.....yes they do have a choice....Just because you don't
like it doesn't make it wrong..I see you have a problem with the 12 step
way..and like I said before ..we don't condem others who do...and the courts
have to do something to get the drunks off the roads..if only one of them gets
it..thats good enough for me..Better than a dead family lying in the road...If
you have a problem with the 12 steps..don't..i repeat don't do them..Now what
would you do with a repeat offender? tell him your not going to screw with his
Constitutional rights..smack him on his wrists ....Don't those of us have the
right to feel safe on the roads and that its a small price to pay mandating them
to go to meetings...and to suffer thru those awful 12 steps that corrupt the
fabric of our great country...lighten up and lets just worry about helping
people instead of finding fault in the the process that you don't like..enough
negitive talk....its getting old with this same old stuff...we are here to
help..not tear down....Thanks
> > > >
> > > > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > OMG!!!!!!
> > > > > Sorry you feel that way..But I know people who were mandated and hated
it only to return when they knew it was what they needed and to try what ever it
took to get sober...they have a choice..Go to dam jail or go to meetings and
sit..how hard can it be.....yes they do have a choice....Just because you don't
like it doesn't make it wrong..I see you have a problem with the 12 step
way..and like I said before ..we don't condem others who do...and the courts
have to do something to get the drunks off the roads..if only one of them gets
it..thats good enough for me..Better than a dead family lying in the road...If
you have a problem with the 12 steps..don't..i repeat don't do them..Now what
would you do with a repeat offender?  tell him your not going to screw with his
Constitutional rights..smack him on his wrists ....Don't those of us have the
right to feel safe on the roads and that its a small price to pay mandating them
to go to meetings...and to suffer thru those awful 12 steps that corrupt the
fabric of our great country...lighten up and lets just worry about helping
people instead of finding fault in the the process that you don't like..enough
negitive talk....its getting old with this same old stuff...we are here to
help..not tear down....Thanks
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@>
wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OMG!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is one of the most shocking statements I have ever heard in a
recovery group. I think that is an awful thing to say!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > People are coerced into 12-step groups (such as Alcoholics
Anonymous) and into 12-step treatment and even if you have not fully appreciated
the irrationality and enormity of 12-step coercion, I would have thought that
you have at least an intuitive sense that this coercion is wrong in several
ways.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Unless adjudicated incompetent, individuals are and should be held
fully responsible for their behaviour. Individuals should be free to choose to
enter 12-step groups and 12-step treatment just as they should be free to choose
other self-help groups and treatments (or no treatment at all).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is it legal for the government to force people to attend 12-step
groups or treatment?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No.
> > > > > > Uniformly, the courts have ruled that mandated 12-step attendance
violates the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kind regards
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ~angelbrite~
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 9:45 AM
> > > > > > To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: Recovery Resources
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I use to think that too about people being forced to be at
meetings..But I was told that it is planting the seed of recovery and maybe some
one will hear their story and make that big decision to take the first step..I
just say let it be and let um go..they can see others who have made it and are
very happy with their lives....Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Yes your right ..it is negative and thats not what were about..were here to help
people by letting them use what ever recorce they want while using what people
like us have used and has worked for us...Where do I get my statistics..I lived
it...I can only answer for me..I don't care what the so called know it alls
whine about..It worked for me...But not how the big book says..But the steps are
just guide lines..not laws...I still will send people to AA and NA or SOS or
where ever they feel it will help them..and until you have something positive to
say about helping  and not bashing..I am not replying to the posts that has
anything to do with this...























--- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "a2hearts" <oldcrowwoman2002@...> wrote:
>
> I don't know why she left. You never know who is standing next to you that has
or may have gone  through  consequences that is stated here and have changed
their life around. And who are we to judge.. And to be judgemental.  There is a
choice deal with the law or go to a meeting. There are success stories.  I don't
see this topic as a debate. It feels negative to me................ Right
redneck, I hope she did not leave because of this...... too
>
> I want to fly with the Eagles.
>
> --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > LOL..looks like were losing someone from our group and I hope it is not
about whats going on here with the debate...
> >
> > Yank their lience and they still drive..
> >
> > instal a breathalyser interlocks system they ghet someone else to
blow...Take their car away and the whole family suffers..
> > Its not as simple as you think it is..empowering is one thing but bashing
something you don't agree with isn't helping either. It is one tool in a very
complicated world of addiction...
> > Sending them to AA is the first step..and if they continue to abuse..I agree
Lock their ass's up..A person drunk in a car is as deadly as someone with a
loaded weapon.
> > If you want to empower someone you don't degrade the other side that shows
pettiness..Make suggestions to them..give them some direction..give them tools
to work with...
> >
> > I hope the other person doesn'r leave because of this....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > It is not just AA or nothing. I am trying to empower people ~ not tear
them down!
> > >
> > > If someone drives drunk repeatedly, yank their license and throw their ass
in jail. Force them to install breathalyser interlocks on their dime if they
want to drive. How many drunk drivers have been through AA just long enough to
satisfy the courts and return to doing the same thing? They keep lowering the
BAC to appear tough on crime, then ship them off to AA to appear compassionate.
All they're doing is creating this revolving door justice system.
> > > http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_13737860?source=most_emailed
> > >
> > > The Brandsma study that showed alcoholics mandated to AA ended up binge
drinking five times as much as those who received no treatment, nine times as
much as those who received rational emotive therapy.
> > > http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#Brandsma
> > >
> > > How would you feel if drunk drivers were mandated to become Muslims. It's
against their religion to drink, so shouldn't we force them to convert?
> > >
> > > As I previously pointed out, AA has been declared "religious in nature" by
several higher courts and that mandated AA violates the Establishment Clause of
the Constitution.
> > >
> > > The best available research evidence, and evidence from AA's own triennial
surveys, indicates that AA's results are no better than the rate of spontaneous
remission, that is, that it's no better than no treatment at all.
> > >
> > > The fact that it has been shown that the program often does more harm than
good for a great many people will never be discussed. As soon as I offer some
criticism of the program here you get upset. That is awfully reminiscent of
Groupthink.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 2:59 PM
> > > To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: 12 Step Coercion
> > >
> > >
> > > OMG!!!!!!
> > > Sorry you feel that way..But I know people who were mandated and hated it
only to return when they knew it was what they needed and to try what ever it
took to get sober...they have a choice..Go to dam jail or go to meetings and
sit..how hard can it be.....yes they do have a choice....Just because you don't
like it doesn't make it wrong..I see you have a problem with the 12 step
way..and like I said before ..we don't condem others who do...and the courts
have to do something to get the drunks off the roads..if only one of them gets
it..thats good enough for me..Better than a dead family lying in the road...If
you have a problem with the 12 steps..don't..i repeat don't do them..Now what
would you do with a repeat offender? tell him your not going to screw with his
Constitutional rights..smack him on his wrists ....Don't those of us have the
right to feel safe on the roads and that its a small price to pay mandating them
to go to meetings...and to suffer thru those awful 12 steps that corrupt the
fabric of our great country...lighten up and lets just worry about helping
people instead of finding fault in the the process that you don't like..enough
negitive talk....its getting old with this same old stuff...we are here to
help..not tear down....Thanks
> > >
> > > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > OMG!!!!!!
> > > > Sorry you feel that way..But I know people who were mandated and hated
it only to return when they knew it was what they needed and to try what ever it
took to get sober...they have a choice..Go to dam jail or go to meetings and
sit..how hard can it be.....yes they do have a choice....Just because you don't
like it doesn't make it wrong..I see you have a problem with the 12 step
way..and like I said before ..we don't condem others who do...and the courts
have to do something to get the drunks off the roads..if only one of them gets
it..thats good enough for me..Better than a dead family lying in the road...If
you have a problem with the 12 steps..don't..i repeat don't do them..Now what
would you do with a repeat offender?  tell him your not going to screw with his
Constitutional rights..smack him on his wrists ....Don't those of us have the
right to feel safe on the roads and that its a small price to pay mandating them
to go to meetings...and to suffer thru those awful 12 steps that corrupt the
fabric of our great country...lighten up and lets just worry about helping
people instead of finding fault in the the process that you don't like..enough
negitive talk....its getting old with this same old stuff...we are here to
help..not tear down....Thanks
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > OMG!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > This is one of the most shocking statements I have ever heard in a
recovery group. I think that is an awful thing to say!
> > > > >
> > > > > People are coerced into 12-step groups (such as Alcoholics Anonymous)
and into 12-step treatment and even if you have not fully appreciated the
irrationality and enormity of 12-step coercion, I would have thought that you
have at least an intuitive sense that this coercion is wrong in several ways.
> > > > >
> > > > > Unless adjudicated incompetent, individuals are and should be held
fully responsible for their behaviour. Individuals should be free to choose to
enter 12-step groups and 12-step treatment just as they should be free to choose
other self-help groups and treatments (or no treatment at all).
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it legal for the government to force people to attend 12-step
groups or treatment?
> > > > >
> > > > > No.
> > > > > Uniformly, the courts have ruled that mandated 12-step attendance
violates the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kind regards
> > > > >
> > > > > ~angelbrite~
> > > > >
> > > > > From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 9:45 AM
> > > > > To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: Recovery Resources
> > > > >
> > > > > I use to think that too about people being forced to be at
meetings..But I was told that it is planting the seed of recovery and maybe some
one will hear their story and make that big decision to take the first step..I
just say let it be and let um go..they can see others who have made it and are
very happy with their lives....Mike
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Where are you getting your "facts"?

--- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@...> wrote:
>
>
> I don't think that there is anyone here that wants a member to leave a support
group.
>
> I have only presented facts here regarding 12 Step Coercion and I have backed
the facts up with evidence and links.
>
> Everything else that I am hearing in defence is just AA speak. I can hear
exactly the same stuff in any meeting that I attend.
>
> For the approximately 3-5% of you that AA actually does work for ~ I am glad,
but you are definitely in the minority.
>
> It is not the AA way or nothing else.
> It is not AA or jails, institutions or death.
>
> Kind regards
>
> ~angelbrite~
>
> From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of a2hearts
> Sent: Thursday, 12 November 2009 3:04 PM
> To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: 12 Step Coercion
>
>
> I don't know why she left. You never know who is standing next to you that has
or may have gone through consequences that is stated here and have changed their
life around. And who are we to judge.. And to be judgemental. There is a choice
deal with the law or go to a meeting. There are success stories. I don't see
this topic as a debate. It feels negative to me................ Right redneck, I
hope she did not leave because of this...... too
>
> I want to fly with the Eagles.
>
> --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > LOL..looks like were losing someone from our group and I hope it is not
about whats going on here with the debate...
> >
> > Yank their lience and they still drive..
> >
> > instal a breathalyser interlocks system they ghet someone else to
blow...Take their car away and the whole family suffers..
> > Its not as simple as you think it is..empowering is one thing but bashing
something you don't agree with isn't helping either. It is one tool in a very
complicated world of addiction...
> > Sending them to AA is the first step..and if they continue to abuse..I agree
Lock their ass's up..A person drunk in a car is as deadly as someone with a
loaded weapon.
> > If you want to empower someone you don't degrade the other side that shows
pettiness..Make suggestions to them..give them some direction..give them tools
to work with...
> >
> > I hope the other person doesn'r leave because of this....
> >
>
> --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "a2hearts" <oldcrowwoman2002@> wrote:
> >
> > I don't know why she left. You never know who is standing next to you that
has or may have gone  through  consequences that is stated here and have changed
their life around. And who are we to judge.. And to be judgemental.  There is a
choice deal with the law or go to a meeting. There are success stories.  I don't
see this topic as a debate. It feels negative to me................ Right
redneck, I hope she did not leave because of this...... too
> >
> > I want to fly with the Eagles.
> >
> > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > LOL..looks like were losing someone from our group and I hope it is not
about whats going on here with the debate...
> > >
> > > Yank their lience and they still drive..
> > >
> > > instal a breathalyser interlocks system they ghet someone else to
blow...Take their car away and the whole family suffers..
> > > Its not as simple as you think it is..empowering is one thing but bashing
something you don't agree with isn't helping either. It is one tool in a very
complicated world of addiction...
> > > Sending them to AA is the first step..and if they continue to abuse..I
agree Lock their ass's up..A person drunk in a car is as deadly as someone with
a loaded weapon.
> > > If you want to empower someone you don't degrade the other side that shows
pettiness..Make suggestions to them..give them some direction..give them tools
to work with...
> > >
> > > I hope the other person doesn'r leave because of this....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It is not just AA or nothing. I am trying to empower people ~ not tear
them down!
> > > >
> > > > If someone drives drunk repeatedly, yank their license and throw their
ass in jail. Force them to install breathalyser interlocks on their dime if they
want to drive. How many drunk drivers have been through AA just long enough to
satisfy the courts and return to doing the same thing? They keep lowering the
BAC to appear tough on crime, then ship them off to AA to appear compassionate.
All they're doing is creating this revolving door justice system.
> > > > http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_13737860?source=most_emailed
> > > >
> > > > The Brandsma study that showed alcoholics mandated to AA ended up binge
drinking five times as much as those who received no treatment, nine times as
much as those who received rational emotive therapy.
> > > > http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#Brandsma
> > > >
> > > > How would you feel if drunk drivers were mandated to become Muslims.
It's against their religion to drink, so shouldn't we force them to convert?
> > > >
> > > > As I previously pointed out, AA has been declared "religious in nature"
by several higher courts and that mandated AA violates the Establishment Clause
of the Constitution.
> > > >
> > > > The best available research evidence, and evidence from AA's own
triennial surveys, indicates that AA's results are no better than the rate of
spontaneous remission, that is, that it's no better than no treatment at all.
> > > >
> > > > The fact that it has been shown that the program often does more harm
than good for a great many people will never be discussed. As soon as I offer
some criticism of the program here you get upset. That is awfully reminiscent of
Groupthink.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > > From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 2:59 PM
> > > > To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: 12 Step Coercion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > OMG!!!!!!
> > > > Sorry you feel that way..But I know people who were mandated and hated
it only to return when they knew it was what they needed and to try what ever it
took to get sober...they have a choice..Go to dam jail or go to meetings and
sit..how hard can it be.....yes they do have a choice....Just because you don't
like it doesn't make it wrong..I see you have a problem with the 12 step
way..and like I said before ..we don't condem others who do...and the courts
have to do something to get the drunks off the roads..if only one of them gets
it..thats good enough for me..Better than a dead family lying in the road...If
you have a problem with the 12 steps..don't..i repeat don't do them..Now what
would you do with a repeat offender? tell him your not going to screw with his
Constitutional rights..smack him on his wrists ....Don't those of us have the
right to feel safe on the roads and that its a small price to pay mandating them
to go to meetings...and to suffer thru those awful 12 steps that corrupt the
fabric of our great country...lighten up and lets just worry about helping
people instead of finding fault in the the process that you don't like..enough
negitive talk....its getting old with this same old stuff...we are here to
help..not tear down....Thanks
> > > >
> > > > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > OMG!!!!!!
> > > > > Sorry you feel that way..But I know people who were mandated and hated
it only to return when they knew it was what they needed and to try what ever it
took to get sober...they have a choice..Go to dam jail or go to meetings and
sit..how hard can it be.....yes they do have a choice....Just because you don't
like it doesn't make it wrong..I see you have a problem with the 12 step
way..and like I said before ..we don't condem others who do...and the courts
have to do something to get the drunks off the roads..if only one of them gets
it..thats good enough for me..Better than a dead family lying in the road...If
you have a problem with the 12 steps..don't..i repeat don't do them..Now what
would you do with a repeat offender?  tell him your not going to screw with his
Constitutional rights..smack him on his wrists ....Don't those of us have the
right to feel safe on the roads and that its a small price to pay mandating them
to go to meetings...and to suffer thru those awful 12 steps that corrupt the
fabric of our great country...lighten up and lets just worry about helping
people instead of finding fault in the the process that you don't like..enough
negitive talk....its getting old with this same old stuff...we are here to
help..not tear down....Thanks
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@>
wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OMG!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is one of the most shocking statements I have ever heard in a
recovery group. I think that is an awful thing to say!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > People are coerced into 12-step groups (such as Alcoholics
Anonymous) and into 12-step treatment and even if you have not fully appreciated
the irrationality and enormity of 12-step coercion, I would have thought that
you have at least an intuitive sense that this coercion is wrong in several
ways.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Unless adjudicated incompetent, individuals are and should be held
fully responsible for their behaviour. Individuals should be free to choose to
enter 12-step groups and 12-step treatment just as they should be free to choose
other self-help groups and treatments (or no treatment at all).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is it legal for the government to force people to attend 12-step
groups or treatment?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No.
> > > > > > Uniformly, the courts have ruled that mandated 12-step attendance
violates the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kind regards
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ~angelbrite~
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 9:45 AM
> > > > > > To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: Recovery Resources
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I use to think that too about people being forced to be at
meetings..But I was told that it is planting the seed of recovery and maybe some
one will hear their story and make that big decision to take the first step..I
just say let it be and let um go..they can see others who have made it and are
very happy with their lives....Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hmmm, The only people I see that are "forced" to go to 12 step programs are the
ones who are required by the judicial system because they have been driving
under the influence or because they have emotional problems while under the
enfluence. Even so, they are not "forced" by the 12 step program. They are
"forced" by their "friends and neighbors". Your logic is really skewed. You seem
to have it in for 12 step programs just because you let somebody who is in a 12
step program get into your pants. That reasoning is skewed as well.  Your logic
for considering alcoholism not a disease is also messed up.

--- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@...> wrote:
>
>
> OMG!!!
>
> This is one of the most shocking statements I have ever heard in a recovery
group. I think that is an awful thing to say!
>
> People are coerced into 12-step groups (such as Alcoholics Anonymous) and into
12-step treatment and even if you have not fully appreciated the irrationality
and enormity of 12-step coercion, I would have thought that you have at least an
intuitive sense that this coercion is wrong in several ways.
>
> Unless adjudicated incompetent, individuals are and should be held fully
responsible for their behaviour. Individuals should be free to choose to enter
12-step groups and 12-step treatment just as they should be free to choose other
self-help groups and treatments (or no treatment at all).
>
> Is it legal for the government to force people to attend 12-step groups or
treatment?
>
> No.
> Uniformly, the courts have ruled that mandated 12-step attendance violates the
First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
>
> Kind regards
>
> ~angelbrite~
>
> From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of rednek53
> Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 9:45 AM
> To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: Recovery Resources
>
> I use to think that too about people being forced to be at meetings..But I was
told that it is planting the seed of recovery and maybe some one will hear their
story and make that big decision to take the first step..I just say let it be
and let um go..they can see others who have made it and are very happy with
their lives....Mike
>

True
--- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> I use to think that too about people being forced to be at meetings..But I was
told that it is planting the seed of recovery and maybe some one will hear their
story and make that big decision to take the first step..I  just say let it be
and let um go..they can see others who have made it and are very happy with
their lives....Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, radaryuppy <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Alcoholics Victorious is a church based 12 step program that has groups all
over the country. I know what you mean about the people who are forced to go.
They really have no interest or reason to be there.
> >
> > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, purplejune <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Does anyone have any experience with SOS, Rational Recovery (AVRT) or
SMART Recovery?  I've read a little about them and like what they have to offer.
> > >
> > > Here's my dilemna:  I am taking a friend to a newcomer AA meeting on
Wednesday.  Not the first time I've brought him to meetings.  I'm just not sure
that AA will work for him and would love to offer other possibilities.  He won't
have a problem with the spiritual aspects, but there are many other points that
may cause him difficulty.  Unfortunately the take-over of 12-steppism by
institutions has created an atmosphere that makes it almost impossible to offer
alternatives.  I live in a county with a population of 50,000.  Anybody who ever
got arrested for bad checks has been forced into AA.  Recovery is big business
around here and 12 step programs are considered the ONLY way to recover.  But
that can be difficult since most of those attending were not in need of
'recovery' in the first place.
> > >
> > > AA was my answer, for sure.  But I know that it's not for everyone and
that other programs are successful and have been recognized by NIDA, ASAM, US
Dept Health & Human Services, etc.
> > >
> > > I would really appreciate any information or insight from anyone.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Deb K
> > >
> >
>

I don't think that there is anyone here that wants a member to leave a support
group.

I have only presented facts here regarding 12 Step Coercion and I have backed
the facts up with evidence and links.

Everything else that I am hearing in defence is just AA speak. I can hear
exactly the same stuff in any meeting that I attend.

For the approximately 3-5% of you that AA actually does work for ~ I am glad,
but you are definitely in the minority.

It is not the AA way or nothing else.
It is not AA or jails, institutions or death.

Kind regards

~angelbrite~

From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of a2hearts
Sent: Thursday, 12 November 2009 3:04 PM
To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: 12 Step Coercion


I don't know why she left. You never know who is standing next to you that has
or may have gone through consequences that is stated here and have changed their
life around. And who are we to judge.. And to be judgemental. There is a choice
deal with the law or go to a meeting. There are success stories. I don't see
this topic as a debate. It feels negative to me................ Right redneck, I
hope she did not leave because of this...... too

I want to fly with the Eagles.

--- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> LOL..looks like were losing someone from our group and I hope it is not about
whats going on here with the debate...
>
> Yank their lience and they still drive..
>
> instal a breathalyser interlocks system they ghet someone else to blow...Take
their car away and the whole family suffers..
> Its not as simple as you think it is..empowering is one thing but bashing
something you don't agree with isn't helping either. It is one tool in a very
complicated world of addiction...
> Sending them to AA is the first step..and if they continue to abuse..I agree
Lock their ass's up..A person drunk in a car is as deadly as someone with a
loaded weapon.
> If you want to empower someone you don't degrade the other side that shows
pettiness..Make suggestions to them..give them some direction..give them tools
to work with...
>
> I hope the other person doesn'r leave because of this....
>

--- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "a2hearts" <oldcrowwoman2002@...> wrote:
>
> I don't know why she left. You never know who is standing next to you that has
or may have gone  through  consequences that is stated here and have changed
their life around. And who are we to judge.. And to be judgemental.  There is a
choice deal with the law or go to a meeting. There are success stories.  I don't
see this topic as a debate. It feels negative to me................ Right
redneck, I hope she did not leave because of this...... too
>
> I want to fly with the Eagles.
>
> --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > LOL..looks like were losing someone from our group and I hope it is not
about whats going on here with the debate...
> >
> > Yank their lience and they still drive..
> >
> > instal a breathalyser interlocks system they ghet someone else to
blow...Take their car away and the whole family suffers..
> > Its not as simple as you think it is..empowering is one thing but bashing
something you don't agree with isn't helping either. It is one tool in a very
complicated world of addiction...
> > Sending them to AA is the first step..and if they continue to abuse..I agree
Lock their ass's up..A person drunk in a car is as deadly as someone with a
loaded weapon.
> > If you want to empower someone you don't degrade the other side that shows
pettiness..Make suggestions to them..give them some direction..give them tools
to work with...
> >
> > I hope the other person doesn'r leave because of this....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > It is not just AA or nothing. I am trying to empower people ~ not tear
them down!
> > >
> > > If someone drives drunk repeatedly, yank their license and throw their ass
in jail. Force them to install breathalyser interlocks on their dime if they
want to drive. How many drunk drivers have been through AA just long enough to
satisfy the courts and return to doing the same thing? They keep lowering the
BAC to appear tough on crime, then ship them off to AA to appear compassionate.
All they're doing is creating this revolving door justice system.
> > > http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_13737860?source=most_emailed
> > >
> > > The Brandsma study that showed alcoholics mandated to AA ended up binge
drinking five times as much as those who received no treatment, nine times as
much as those who received rational emotive therapy.
> > > http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#Brandsma
> > >
> > > How would you feel if drunk drivers were mandated to become Muslims. It's
against their religion to drink, so shouldn't we force them to convert?
> > >
> > > As I previously pointed out, AA has been declared "religious in nature" by
several higher courts and that mandated AA violates the Establishment Clause of
the Constitution.
> > >
> > > The best available research evidence, and evidence from AA's own triennial
surveys, indicates that AA's results are no better than the rate of spontaneous
remission, that is, that it's no better than no treatment at all.
> > >
> > > The fact that it has been shown that the program often does more harm than
good for a great many people will never be discussed. As soon as I offer some
criticism of the program here you get upset. That is awfully reminiscent of
Groupthink.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 2:59 PM
> > > To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: 12 Step Coercion
> > >
> > >
> > > OMG!!!!!!
> > > Sorry you feel that way..But I know people who were mandated and hated it
only to return when they knew it was what they needed and to try what ever it
took to get sober...they have a choice..Go to dam jail or go to meetings and
sit..how hard can it be.....yes they do have a choice....Just because you don't
like it doesn't make it wrong..I see you have a problem with the 12 step
way..and like I said before ..we don't condem others who do...and the courts
have to do something to get the drunks off the roads..if only one of them gets
it..thats good enough for me..Better than a dead family lying in the road...If
you have a problem with the 12 steps..don't..i repeat don't do them..Now what
would you do with a repeat offender? tell him your not going to screw with his
Constitutional rights..smack him on his wrists ....Don't those of us have the
right to feel safe on the roads and that its a small price to pay mandating them
to go to meetings...and to suffer thru those awful 12 steps that corrupt the
fabric of our great country...lighten up and lets just worry about helping
people instead of finding fault in the the process that you don't like..enough
negitive talk....its getting old with this same old stuff...we are here to
help..not tear down....Thanks
> > >
> > > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > OMG!!!!!!
> > > > Sorry you feel that way..But I know people who were mandated and hated
it only to return when they knew it was what they needed and to try what ever it
took to get sober...they have a choice..Go to dam jail or go to meetings and
sit..how hard can it be.....yes they do have a choice....Just because you don't
like it doesn't make it wrong..I see you have a problem with the 12 step
way..and like I said before ..we don't condem others who do...and the courts
have to do something to get the drunks off the roads..if only one of them gets
it..thats good enough for me..Better than a dead family lying in the road...If
you have a problem with the 12 steps..don't..i repeat don't do them..Now what
would you do with a repeat offender?  tell him your not going to screw with his
Constitutional rights..smack him on his wrists ....Don't those of us have the
right to feel safe on the roads and that its a small price to pay mandating them
to go to meetings...and to suffer thru those awful 12 steps that corrupt the
fabric of our great country...lighten up and lets just worry about helping
people instead of finding fault in the the process that you don't like..enough
negitive talk....its getting old with this same old stuff...we are here to
help..not tear down....Thanks
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > OMG!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > This is one of the most shocking statements I have ever heard in a
recovery group. I think that is an awful thing to say!
> > > > >
> > > > > People are coerced into 12-step groups (such as Alcoholics Anonymous)
and into 12-step treatment and even if you have not fully appreciated the
irrationality and enormity of 12-step coercion, I would have thought that you
have at least an intuitive sense that this coercion is wrong in several ways.
> > > > >
> > > > > Unless adjudicated incompetent, individuals are and should be held
fully responsible for their behaviour. Individuals should be free to choose to
enter 12-step groups and 12-step treatment just as they should be free to choose
other self-help groups and treatments (or no treatment at all).
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it legal for the government to force people to attend 12-step
groups or treatment?
> > > > >
> > > > > No.
> > > > > Uniformly, the courts have ruled that mandated 12-step attendance
violates the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kind regards
> > > > >
> > > > > ~angelbrite~
> > > > >
> > > > > From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 9:45 AM
> > > > > To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: Recovery Resources
> > > > >
> > > > > I use to think that too about people being forced to be at
meetings..But I was told that it is planting the seed of recovery and maybe some
one will hear their story and make that big decision to take the first step..I
just say let it be and let um go..they can see others who have made it and are
very happy with their lives....Mike
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

I don't know why she left. You never know who is standing next to you that has
or may have gone  through  consequences that is stated here and have changed
their life around. And who are we to judge.. And to be judgemental.  There is a
choice deal with the law or go to a meeting. There are success stories.  I don't
see this topic as a debate. It feels negative to me................ Right
redneck, I hope she did not leave because of this...... too

I want to fly with the Eagles.

--- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> LOL..looks like were losing someone from our group and I hope it is not about
whats going on here with the debate...
>
> Yank their lience and they still drive..
>
> instal a breathalyser interlocks system they ghet someone else to blow...Take
their car away and the whole family suffers..
> Its not as simple as you think it is..empowering is one thing but bashing
something you don't agree with isn't helping either. It is one tool in a very
complicated world of addiction...
> Sending them to AA is the first step..and if they continue to abuse..I agree
Lock their ass's up..A person drunk in a car is as deadly as someone with a
loaded weapon.
> If you want to empower someone you don't degrade the other side that shows
pettiness..Make suggestions to them..give them some direction..give them tools
to work with...
>
> I hope the other person doesn'r leave because of this....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > It is not just AA or nothing. I am trying to empower people ~ not tear them
down!
> >
> > If someone drives drunk repeatedly, yank their license and throw their ass
in jail. Force them to install breathalyser interlocks on their dime if they
want to drive. How many drunk drivers have been through AA just long enough to
satisfy the courts and return to doing the same thing? They keep lowering the
BAC to appear tough on crime, then ship them off to AA to appear compassionate.
All they're doing is creating this revolving door justice system.
> > http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_13737860?source=most_emailed
> >
> > The Brandsma study that showed alcoholics mandated to AA ended up binge
drinking five times as much as those who received no treatment, nine times as
much as those who received rational emotive therapy.
> > http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#Brandsma
> >
> > How would you feel if drunk drivers were mandated to become Muslims. It's
against their religion to drink, so shouldn't we force them to convert?
> >
> > As I previously pointed out, AA has been declared "religious in nature" by
several higher courts and that mandated AA violates the Establishment Clause of
the Constitution.
> >
> > The best available research evidence, and evidence from AA's own triennial
surveys, indicates that AA's results are no better than the rate of spontaneous
remission, that is, that it's no better than no treatment at all.
> >
> > The fact that it has been shown that the program often does more harm than
good for a great many people will never be discussed. As soon as I offer some
criticism of the program here you get upset. That is awfully reminiscent of
Groupthink.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of rednek53
> > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 2:59 PM
> > To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: 12 Step Coercion
> >
> >
> > OMG!!!!!!
> > Sorry you feel that way..But I know people who were mandated and hated it
only to return when they knew it was what they needed and to try what ever it
took to get sober...they have a choice..Go to dam jail or go to meetings and
sit..how hard can it be.....yes they do have a choice....Just because you don't
like it doesn't make it wrong..I see you have a problem with the 12 step
way..and like I said before ..we don't condem others who do...and the courts
have to do something to get the drunks off the roads..if only one of them gets
it..thats good enough for me..Better than a dead family lying in the road...If
you have a problem with the 12 steps..don't..i repeat don't do them..Now what
would you do with a repeat offender? tell him your not going to screw with his
Constitutional rights..smack him on his wrists ....Don't those of us have the
right to feel safe on the roads and that its a small price to pay mandating them
to go to meetings...and to suffer thru those awful 12 steps that corrupt the
fabric of our great country...lighten up and lets just worry about helping
people instead of finding fault in the the process that you don't like..enough
negitive talk....its getting old with this same old stuff...we are here to
help..not tear down....Thanks
> >
> > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > OMG!!!!!!
> > > Sorry you feel that way..But I know people who were mandated and hated it
only to return when they knew it was what they needed and to try what ever it
took to get sober...they have a choice..Go to dam jail or go to meetings and
sit..how hard can it be.....yes they do have a choice....Just because you don't
like it doesn't make it wrong..I see you have a problem with the 12 step
way..and like I said before ..we don't condem others who do...and the courts
have to do something to get the drunks off the roads..if only one of them gets
it..thats good enough for me..Better than a dead family lying in the road...If
you have a problem with the 12 steps..don't..i repeat don't do them..Now what
would you do with a repeat offender?  tell him your not going to screw with his
Constitutional rights..smack him on his wrists ....Don't those of us have the
right to feel safe on the roads and that its a small price to pay mandating them
to go to meetings...and to suffer thru those awful 12 steps that corrupt the
fabric of our great country...lighten up and lets just worry about helping
people instead of finding fault in the the process that you don't like..enough
negitive talk....its getting old with this same old stuff...we are here to
help..not tear down....Thanks
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > OMG!!!
> > > >
> > > > This is one of the most shocking statements I have ever heard in a
recovery group. I think that is an awful thing to say!
> > > >
> > > > People are coerced into 12-step groups (such as Alcoholics Anonymous)
and into 12-step treatment and even if you have not fully appreciated the
irrationality and enormity of 12-step coercion, I would have thought that you
have at least an intuitive sense that this coercion is wrong in several ways.
> > > >
> > > > Unless adjudicated incompetent, individuals are and should be held fully
responsible for their behaviour. Individuals should be free to choose to enter
12-step groups and 12-step treatment just as they should be free to choose other
self-help groups and treatments (or no treatment at all).
> > > >
> > > > Is it legal for the government to force people to attend 12-step groups
or treatment?
> > > >
> > > > No.
> > > > Uniformly, the courts have ruled that mandated 12-step attendance
violates the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
> > > >
> > > > Kind regards
> > > >
> > > > ~angelbrite~
> > > >
> > > > From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 9:45 AM
> > > > To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: Recovery Resources
> > > >
> > > > I use to think that too about people being forced to be at meetings..But
I was told that it is planting the seed of recovery and maybe some one will hear
their story and make that big decision to take the first step..I just say let it
be and let um go..they can see others who have made it and are very happy with
their lives....Mike
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

1 thing about, I never even considered stopping until I got cleaned up/dried out
& I never did that willingly.  It was only through court coercion that I ever
made any attempt to stop. After years it finally took.  I ran into the Judge
that presided over my last trial at our 40th school reunion & we talked. He was
pleased & very surprised I was even still alive much less 15 years clean.



 "Loud Pipes Save Lives."
 

--- On Wed, 11/11/09, rednek53 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


From: rednek53 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: 12 Step Coercion
To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 10:34 AM


 



LOL..looks like were losing someone from our group and I hope it is not about
whats going on here with the debate...

Yank their lience and they still drive..

instal a breathalyser interlocks system they ghet someone else to blow...Take
their car away and the whole family suffers..
Its not as simple as you think it is..empowering is one thing but bashing
something you don't agree with isn't helping either. It is one tool in a very
complicated world of addiction...
Sending them to AA is the first step..and if they continue to abuse..I agree
Lock their ass's up..A person drunk in a car is as deadly as someone with a
loaded weapon.
If you want to empower someone you don't degrade the other side that shows
pettiness..Make suggestions to them..give them some direction..give them tools
to work with...

I hope the other person doesn'r leave because of this....

--- In anewbeginning2@ yahoogroups. com, "Angelique" <angelique7@ ...> wrote:
>
>
> It is not just AA or nothing. I am trying to empower people ~ not tear them
down!
>
> If someone drives drunk repeatedly, yank their license and throw their ass in
jail. Force them to install breathalyser interlocks on their dime if they want
to drive. How many drunk drivers have been through AA just long enough to
satisfy the courts and return to doing the same thing? They keep lowering the
BAC to appear tough on crime, then ship them off to AA to appear compassionate.
All they're doing is creating this revolving door justice system.
> http://www.insideba yarea.com/ ci_13737860? source=most_ emailed
>
> The Brandsma study that showed alcoholics mandated to AA ended up binge
drinking five times as much as those who received no treatment, nine times as
much as those who received rational emotive therapy.
> http://www.orange- papers.org/ orange-effective ness.html# Brandsma
>
> How would you feel if drunk drivers were mandated to become Muslims. It's
against their religion to drink, so shouldn't we force them to convert?
>
> As I previously pointed out, AA has been declared "religious in nature" by
several higher courts and that mandated AA violates the Establishment Clause of
the Constitution.
>
> The best available research evidence, and evidence from AA's own triennial
surveys, indicates that AA's results are no better than the rate of spontaneous
remission, that is, that it's no better than no treatment at all.
>
> The fact that it has been shown that the program often does more harm than
good for a great many people will never be discussed. As soon as I offer some
criticism of the program here you get upset. That is awfully reminiscent of
Groupthink.
>
> Thanks
>
> From: anewbeginning2@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anewbeginning2@ yahoogroups.
com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 2:59 PM
> To: anewbeginning2@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: 12 Step Coercion
>
>
> OMG!!!!!!
> Sorry you feel that way..But I know people who were mandated and hated it only
to return when they knew it was what they needed and to try what ever it took to
get sober...they have a choice..Go to dam jail or go to meetings and sit..how
hard can it be.....yes they do have a choice....Just because you don't like it
doesn't make it wrong..I see you have a problem with the 12 step way..and like I
said before ..we don't condem others who do...and the courts have to do
something to get the drunks off the roads..if only one of them gets it..thats
good enough for me..Better than a dead family lying in the road...If you have a
problem with the 12 steps..don't. .i repeat don't do them..Now what would you do
with a repeat offender? tell him your not going to screw with his Constitutional
rights..smack him on his wrists ....Don't those of us have the right to feel
safe on the roads and that its a small price to pay mandating them to go to
meetings...and to
  suffer thru those awful 12 steps that corrupt the fabric of our great
country...lighten up and lets just worry about helping people instead of finding
fault in the the process that you don't like..enough negitive talk....its
getting old with this same old stuff...we are here to help..not tear
down....Thanks
>
> --- In anewbeginning2@ yahoogroups. com, rednek53 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > OMG!!!!!!
> > Sorry you feel that way..But I know people who were mandated and hated it
only to return when they knew it was what they needed and to try what ever it
took to get sober...they have a choice..Go to dam jail or go to meetings and
sit..how hard can it be.....yes they do have a choice....Just because you don't
like it doesn't make it wrong..I see you have a problem with the 12 step
way..and like I said before ..we don't condem others who do...and the courts
have to do something to get the drunks off the roads..if only one of them gets
it..thats good enough for me..Better than a dead family lying in the road...If
you have a problem with the 12 steps..don't. .i repeat don't do them..Now what
would you do with a repeat offender? tell him your not going to screw with his
Constitutional rights..smack him on his wrists ....Don't those of us have the
right to feel safe on the roads and that its a small price to pay mandating them
to go to meetings...and to
  suffer thru those awful 12 steps that corrupt the fabric of our great
country...lighten up and lets just worry about helping people instead of finding
fault in the the process that you don't like..enough negitive talk....its
getting old with this same old stuff...we are here to help..not tear
down....Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In anewbeginning2@ yahoogroups. com, "Angelique" <angelique7@ > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > OMG!!!
> > >
> > > This is one of the most shocking statements I have ever heard in a
recovery group. I think that is an awful thing to say!
> > >
> > > People are coerced into 12-step groups (such as Alcoholics Anonymous) and
into 12-step treatment and even if you have not fully appreciated the
irrationality and enormity of 12-step coercion, I would have thought that you
have at least an intuitive sense that this coercion is wrong in several ways.
> > >
> > > Unless adjudicated incompetent, individuals are and should be held fully
responsible for their behaviour. Individuals should be free to choose to enter
12-step groups and 12-step treatment just as they should be free to choose other
self-help groups and treatments (or no treatment at all).
> > >
> > > Is it legal for the government to force people to attend 12-step groups or
treatment?
> > >
> > > No.
> > > Uniformly, the courts have ruled that mandated 12-step attendance violates
the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
> > >
> > > Kind regards
> > >
> > > ~angelbrite~
> > >
> > > From: anewbeginning2@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anewbeginning2@
yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 9:45 AM
> > > To: anewbeginning2@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: Recovery Resources
> > >
> > > I use to think that too about people being forced to be at meetings..But I
was told that it is planting the seed of recovery and maybe some one will hear
their story and make that big decision to take the first step..I just say let it
be and let um go..they can see others who have made it and are very happy with
their lives....Mike
> > >
> >
>











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

LOL..looks like were losing someone from our group and I hope it is not about
whats going on here with the debate...

Yank their lience and they still drive..

instal a breathalyser interlocks system they ghet someone else to blow...Take
their car away and the whole family suffers..
Its not as simple as you think it is..empowering is one thing but bashing
something you don't agree with isn't helping either. It is one tool in a very
complicated world of addiction...
Sending them to AA is the first step..and if they continue to abuse..I agree
Lock their ass's up..A person drunk in a car is as deadly as someone with a
loaded weapon.
If you want to empower someone you don't degrade the other side that shows
pettiness..Make suggestions to them..give them some direction..give them tools
to work with...

I hope the other person doesn'r leave because of this....
















--- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@...> wrote:
>
>
> It is not just AA or nothing. I am trying to empower people ~ not tear them
down!
>
> If someone drives drunk repeatedly, yank their license and throw their ass in
jail. Force them to install breathalyser interlocks on their dime if they want
to drive. How many drunk drivers have been through AA just long enough to
satisfy the courts and return to doing the same thing? They keep lowering the
BAC to appear tough on crime, then ship them off to AA to appear compassionate.
All they're doing is creating this revolving door justice system.
> http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_13737860?source=most_emailed
>
> The Brandsma study that showed alcoholics mandated to AA ended up binge
drinking five times as much as those who received no treatment, nine times as
much as those who received rational emotive therapy.
> http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#Brandsma
>
> How would you feel if drunk drivers were mandated to become Muslims. It's
against their religion to drink, so shouldn't we force them to convert?
>
> As I previously pointed out, AA has been declared "religious in nature" by
several higher courts and that mandated AA violates the Establishment Clause of
the Constitution.
>
> The best available research evidence, and evidence from AA's own triennial
surveys, indicates that AA's results are no better than the rate of spontaneous
remission, that is, that it's no better than no treatment at all.
>
> The fact that it has been shown that the program often does more harm than
good for a great many people will never be discussed. As soon as I offer some
criticism of the program here you get upset. That is awfully reminiscent of
Groupthink.
>
> Thanks
>
> From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of rednek53
> Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 2:59 PM
> To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: 12 Step Coercion
>
>
> OMG!!!!!!
> Sorry you feel that way..But I know people who were mandated and hated it only
to return when they knew it was what they needed and to try what ever it took to
get sober...they have a choice..Go to dam jail or go to meetings and sit..how
hard can it be.....yes they do have a choice....Just because you don't like it
doesn't make it wrong..I see you have a problem with the 12 step way..and like I
said before ..we don't condem others who do...and the courts have to do
something to get the drunks off the roads..if only one of them gets it..thats
good enough for me..Better than a dead family lying in the road...If you have a
problem with the 12 steps..don't..i repeat don't do them..Now what would you do
with a repeat offender? tell him your not going to screw with his Constitutional
rights..smack him on his wrists ....Don't those of us have the right to feel
safe on the roads and that its a small price to pay mandating them to go to
meetings...and to suffer thru those awful 12 steps that corrupt the fabric of
our great country...lighten up and lets just worry about helping people instead
of finding fault in the the process that you don't like..enough negitive
talk....its getting old with this same old stuff...we are here to help..not tear
down....Thanks
>
> --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, rednek53 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > OMG!!!!!!
> > Sorry you feel that way..But I know people who were mandated and hated it
only to return when they knew it was what they needed and to try what ever it
took to get sober...they have a choice..Go to dam jail or go to meetings and
sit..how hard can it be.....yes they do have a choice....Just because you don't
like it doesn't make it wrong..I see you have a problem with the 12 step
way..and like I said before ..we don't condem others who do...and the courts
have to do something to get the drunks off the roads..if only one of them gets
it..thats good enough for me..Better than a dead family lying in the road...If
you have a problem with the 12 steps..don't..i repeat don't do them..Now what
would you do with a repeat offender?  tell him your not going to screw with his
Constitutional rights..smack him on his wrists ....Don't those of us have the
right to feel safe on the roads and that its a small price to pay mandating them
to go to meetings...and to suffer thru those awful 12 steps that corrupt the
fabric of our great country...lighten up and lets just worry about helping
people instead of finding fault in the the process that you don't like..enough
negitive talk....its getting old with this same old stuff...we are here to
help..not tear down....Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com, "Angelique" <angelique7@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > OMG!!!
> > >
> > > This is one of the most shocking statements I have ever heard in a
recovery group. I think that is an awful thing to say!
> > >
> > > People are coerced into 12-step groups (such as Alcoholics Anonymous) and
into 12-step treatment and even if you have not fully appreciated the
irrationality and enormity of 12-step coercion, I would have thought that you
have at least an intuitive sense that this coercion is wrong in several ways.
> > >
> > > Unless adjudicated incompetent, individuals are and should be held fully
responsible for their behaviour. Individuals should be free to choose to enter
12-step groups and 12-step treatment just as they should be free to choose other
self-help groups and treatments (or no treatment at all).
> > >
> > > Is it legal for the government to force people to attend 12-step groups or
treatment?
> > >
> > > No.
> > > Uniformly, the courts have ruled that mandated 12-step attendance violates
the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
> > >
> > > Kind regards
> > >
> > > ~angelbrite~
> > >
> > > From: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rednek53
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 9:45 AM
> > > To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: Recovery Resources
> > >
> > > I use to think that too about people being forced to be at meetings..But I
was told that it is planting the seed of recovery and maybe some one will hear
their story and make that big decision to take the first step..I just say let it
be and let um go..they can see others who have made it and are very happy with
their lives....Mike
> > >
> >
>

Hey, they don't have to go, they can always take "Plan B", go ahead & take their
drunk driving or dope fiend asses to prison.  Once it reaches the point that
the courts are involved, something has to be done. what else is the Judge to do,
shake his finger at them and say don't you do that anymore.Jim



 "Loud Pipes Save Lives."
 

--- On Tue, 11/10/09, Angelique <angelique7@...> wrote:


From: Angelique <angelique7@...>
Subject: [A New Beginning] 12 Step Coercion
To: anewbeginning2@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 6:42 PM


 




OMG!!!

This is one of the most shocking statements I have ever heard in a recovery
group. I think that is an awful thing to say!

People are coerced into 12-step groups (such as Alcoholics Anonymous) and into
12-step treatment and even if you have not fully appreciated the irrationality
and enormity of 12-step coercion, I would have thought that you have at least an
intuitive sense that this coercion is wrong in several ways.

Unless adjudicated incompetent, individuals are and should be held fully
responsible for their behaviour. Individuals should be free to choose to enter
12-step groups and 12-step treatment just as they should be free to choose other
self-help groups and treatments (or no treatment at all).

Is it legal for the government to force people to attend 12-step groups or
treatment?

No.
Uniformly, the courts have ruled that mandated 12-step attendance violates the
First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

Kind regards

~angelbrite~

From: anewbeginning2@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anewbeginning2@ yahoogroups. com]
On Behalf Of rednek53
Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 9:45 AM
To: anewbeginning2@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: [A New Beginning] Re: Recovery Resources

I use to think that too about people being forced to be at meetings..But I was
told that it is planting the seed of recovery and maybe some one will hear their
story and make that big decision to take the first step..I just say let it be
and let um go..they can see others who have made it and are very happy with
their lives....Mike











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Please remove me from this group.