Just a question...

But, isn't the program of Alcoholics Anonymous steps 1 - 12??

Trina


> I kinda knew I was nuts... :)
>
> I wonder if I should bring a strainer with me to meetings just to
> strain out all the bullsh*t!
>
> The "IT" is the AA Program of recovery - Steps 3 through 11.
Somehow
> it seems pretty straight forward to me. But then I'm nuts... :)
>
> Jim - Recovered!

When I first came around YEARS ment something to me.  Now I don't get
fooled by that.  I think most of the PARROT AA'S who speak just like
to hear themselves speak.  That's why alot of them keep going to
commitments rather than read the BB and find out who they really are
deep down.  The SURFACE SKIMMERS are the most popular where there is
no recovery talk just where are we going for coffee after to talk
about people who have gone out recently.  It's very sad to me.

Paul

--- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "Jim K." <jknyc@h...> wrote:
> A speaker at my group made a comment that just annoyed the crap out
> of me. Here's a guy sober 28 years and he says "I don't know how AA
> works, it just does". What the hell is that? I mean come on, if
> after 28 years you don't know what's the sense? Ignorance is no
> substitute for humility but some must believe it is.
>
> Or am I nuts?
>
> Jim - Recovered!

I kinda knew I was nuts... :)

I wonder if I should bring a strainer with me to meetings just to
strain out all the bullsh*t!

The "IT" is the AA Program of recovery - Steps 3 through 11. Somehow
it seems pretty straight forward to me. But then I'm nuts... :)

Jim - Recovered!

yeah  i hear that at meetings...and i usually turn to the person
next to me and say...i guess they haven't read the book yet....there
are countless things that are said in meetings,,that  makes one
shake their head...i truly believe that they dont even know what
they are saying..just they have heard it said by someone else and
its just gets repeated...i try real hard t keep those AA wives tales
out of my volcabulary...

Sam



-- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "Jim K." <jknyc@h...> wrote:
> A speaker at my group made a comment that just annoyed the crap
out
> of me. Here's a guy sober 28 years and he says "I don't know how
AA
> works, it just does". What the hell is that? I mean come on, if
> after 28 years you don't know what's the sense? Ignorance is no
> substitute for humility but some must believe it is.
>
> Or am I nuts?
>
> Jim - Recovered!

A speaker at my group made a comment that just annoyed the crap out
of me. Here's a guy sober 28 years and he says "I don't know how AA
works, it just does". What the hell is that? I mean come on, if
after 28 years you don't know what's the sense? Ignorance is no
substitute for humility but some must believe it is.

Or am I nuts?

Jim - Recovered!

Thank you, everyone, for sharing your thoughts and suggestions with
me!

The someday-to-be-new-and-improved-nonjudgmental-Karen

Karen,

Find something that you have conquered in your AA life that was very
difficult and you are proud of.  Remember how hard it was to overcome
and the steps you took to achieve that.  If you wrote it down even
better review it an analyze it vs Being Judgmental & Using Sound
Judgment.  I find by reviewing problems I have conquered helps me to
find the answer to problems I'm living in today.  Most of the time it
involved tons of prayer.  This way I am always working on the
solution not the problem.

Paul

Hi there, Karen!

We've butted heads in the past - perhaps we were both sitting in
judgement on each other!!  =0)  But on this - I think I know what
you are getting at and I agree.

I read the step 10 response to your post and agree with that to a
degree - I mean, we all know that if there is something that we find
objectionable going on, very likely we are the problem *wink*

BUT!! (hee hee)  I posted on another board about the importance in
my growth and my journey to set boundaries - something I never did
before.  Especially here online - if I read something that I
strongly disagree with - or get the idea that someone isn't being
fully honest - I do feel compelled to say so.  Is this a defect of
my own rearing its ugly head?  In all liklihood, yes.  However -
there may be some quiet, lurking newcomer who is VERY confused by
some statement made by someone who appears to be pretty educated
or "smart" or eloquent - and reading my questions or remarks could
help them make their own decision a little more clearly.  Or maybe
I'm just full of crap *wink*  I don't know.

I admit that I have "goated" certain people on certain boards from
time to time.  Sometimes I just can't help myself - human being that
I am... LOL  But there are times that I just feel that is really is
the right thing to do - to voice my opinion on something - it feels
like using good judgement - not being judgemental.

I guess, like you said... our defects and how we handle them really
isn't our job - God knows more about me than I do and he will remove
them in the order he wants to WHEN he wants to.  I do try to learn
something out of every situation I find myself in.  Usually the
answer is "pause and pray"  damnit.  LOL

Anyway - just wanted to let you know that I think I understand...
you know???

Trina


> I am often very judgmental, which is one of my character defects.
> (OK, OK, I can hear some of you now… "No SHIT!!"  * sigh *  C'mon!
> Gimme a break! Hear me out!)
>
> Anyway… I'm not just judgmental of others. I'm mostly judgmental
of
> myself, which translates into self-focused, self-critical, self-
> centered fear.
>
> I think this character defect manifests itself mostly in my
> relationship with God – I'm never good enough. I fail miserably
time
> and time again. It also manifests itself in my marriage and in
other
> relationships as well. Some of you MIGHT have even seen this
> character defect of mine rear its ugly head here on these AA
boards.
>
> I know it's not my job to remove my own character defects. It's
God's
> job. I'm supposed to LET HIM and COOPERATE.  And I really do
> understand the truth that I can't make myself perfect. Nor can I
> demand the same from others.
>
> But there's more to it. We're supposed to use "sound judgment."
It's
> wise to be discerning. I am responsible for making judgment calls
> about what I do and who I spend my time with, right? We have to
judge
> the actions of others without judging their eternal destiny,
correct?
>
> But "using good judgment" and being "judgmental" are two different
> things? There's a line there that I cross that I can't seem to see
> clearly. It must have something to do with assigning "right"
> and "wrong" values, but the line for me is very blurry.
>
> I would love to be the kind of person who didn't pass judgment on
> myself or on others, while at the same time using good judgment to
> make wise decisions in life.  If I was that kind of person, I
could
> be more relaxed and happier in my relationship with God and with
my
> fellows. I could experience more serenity. I could be a more
> effective friend, wife, co-worker, and sponsor.
>
> I'm not sure what I expect to hear from others here in this group
on
> this topic. Maybe I'm just using this board as a safe place to
write.
> But if anyone has anything to share, I'm all ears…. I mean eyes.
>
> Thanks,
> Karen

That's pretty much what it loosely means here too - in Salt Lake
City.

Sometimes, people will comment on what someone said while they are
sharing (not interrupting, though) and that is pretty acceptable
here, but it is still crosstalk by definition.  I don't really mind
when people do it that way - but it does get annoying when the
meeting becomes all about what one member shared 40 minutes ago -
you know?

Trina


> I guess crosstalk means different things in different parts of the
> country - In Buffalo and Central Virginia it means carrying on a
> conversation with the one who's sharing
>
>
> --- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "Jim K." <jknyc@h...>
> wrote:
> > I never heard of this as a term until I moved to NYC from
eastern
> > Long Island in 1997. I first associated cross talk with talking
> > while someone else was sharing in a meeting but have since
learned
> > it is associated with commenting on someone elses' share.
> >
> > Heavens forbid if someone might say something to someone who is
> > sorely mistaken about something. How do people learn - from the
> > experience of others hopefully. AA isn't group therapy where
> dumping
> > out one's problems is any kind of a real solution. Perhaps a
> > suggestion by those who have gone down the pathe before us is in
> > order - but don't cross talk...
> >
> > How do you all feel about it?
> >
> > Jim - Recovered!

ohhh lordy...i think i have seen everything...now

a wiseass from the southwest




--- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Lawyer"
<ejlawyer@m...> wrote:
> Karen,
> This out and out sounds like a step 10 problem -  Like, lack of
use.
>
> This is from (oh help me get my fingers out from around my neck)
the 12 & 12.
>
> LOL   - I'm coming up on 18 years so I can start reading it.
>
> A spot-check inventory taken in the midst of such disturbances can
be of very
> great help in quieting stormy emotions. Today's spot check finds
its chief
> application to situations which arise in each day's march. The
consideration of
> long-standing difficulties had better be postponed, when possible,
to times
> deliberately set aside for that purpose. The quick inventory is
aimed at our
> daily ups and downs, especially those where people or new events
throw us off
> balance and tempt us to make mistakes.
>  In all these situations we need self-restraint, honest analysis
of what is
> involved, a willingness to admit when the fault is ours, and an
equal
> willingness to forgive when the fault is elsewhere. We need not be
discouraged
> when we fall into the error of our old ways, for these disciplines
are not
> easy. We shall look for progress, not for perfection.
>  Our first objective will be the development of self restraint.
This carries a
> top priority rating. When we speak or act hastily or rashly, the
ability to be
> fair-minded and tolerant evaporates on the spot. One unkind tirade
or one
> willful snap judgment can ruin our relation with another person
for a whole
> day, or maybe a whole year. Nothing pays off like restraint of
tongue and pen.
> We must avoid quick-tempered criticism and furious, power-driven
argument. The
> same goes for sulking or silent scorn. These are emotional booby
traps baited
> with pride and vengefulness. Our first job is to sidestep the
traps. When we
> are tempted by the bait, we should train ourselves to step back
and think. For
> we can neither think nor act to good purpose until the habit of
self-restraint
> has become automatic.
> ---------------------
> I have found that step 10 is the most reliable and easiest thing
to do to keep me
> from acting like my old self.   (Rom 7:14-25)
>
>                   God Bless,
>                              Jay - Ex!Alcoholic
>
> I am often very judgmental, which is one of my character defects.
> (OK, OK, I can hear some of you now. "No SHIT!!"  * sigh *  C'mon!
> Gimme a break! Hear me out!)
>
> Anyway. I'm not just judgmental of others. I'm mostly judgmental
of
> myself, which translates into self-focused, self-critical, self-
> centered fear.
>
> I think this character defect manifests itself mostly in my
> relationship with God - I'm never good enough. I fail miserably
time
> and time again. It also manifests itself in my marriage and in
other
> relationships as well. Some of you MIGHT have even seen this
> character defect of mine rear its ugly head here on these AA
boards.
>
> I know it's not my job to remove my own character defects. It's
God's
> job. I'm supposed to LET HIM and COOPERATE.  And I really do
> understand the truth that I can't make myself perfect. Nor can I
> demand the same from others.
>
> But there's more to it. We're supposed to use "sound judgment."
It's
> wise to be discerning. I am responsible for making judgment calls
> about what I do and who I spend my time with, right? We have to
judge
> the actions of others without judging their eternal destiny,
correct?
>
> But "using good judgment" and being "judgmental" are two different
> things? There's a line there that I cross that I can't seem to see
> clearly. It must have something to do with assigning "right"
> and "wrong" values, but the line for me is very blurry.
>
> I would love to be the kind of person who didn't pass judgment on
> myself or on others, while at the same time using good judgment to
> make wise decisions in life.  If I was that kind of person, I
could
> be more relaxed and happier in my relationship with God and with
my
> fellows. I could experience more serenity. I could be a more
> effective friend, wife, co-worker, and sponsor.
>
> I'm not sure what I expect to hear from others here in this group
on
> this topic. Maybe I'm just using this board as a safe place to
write.
> But if anyone has anything to share, I'm all ears.. I mean eyes.
>
> Thanks,
> Karen

Hi Bob,
I'll have to check out that meeting. Do you ever get
to Bridgeville for the Sunday meeting at 3pm? Its a
beginners discussion and also a BB Study.
Also are you planning on attending the NERC AA
conference in October?  Its going to be at the Wyndham
near the Pointe in North Fayette Twp. If you would
like info I have it.

Jocelyn

--- "Bob G." <fubblesthebabycow@...> wrote:
>
>
> Live in the south hills, member of the Castle
> Shannon sunday night group!  Nice to meet you, and I
> think I've met a few folks from the Parkway west
> group.  Nice to see another Pittsburgher on the
> boards here!
>
> Bob
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!





__________________________________
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Live in the south hills, member of the Castle Shannon sunday night group!  Nice to meet you, and I think I've met a few folks from the Parkway west group.  Nice to see another Pittsburgher on the boards here!

Bob

Hi Bob,
Jocelyn here also from Western Pa. My home group is
Parkway West in Oakdale.  Where are you from in W Pa?

--- "Bob G." <fubblesthebabycow@...> wrote:
>
>
> In western PA, 'cross-talk' is understood as
> starting a dialogue with another person while
> sharing during a discussion meeting.  Commenting on
> someone else's share is not discouraged, as long as
> it is a monologue.
>
> If we couldn't comment on a perception by a newcomer
> that was incorrect, how could that person ever learn
> what our program is really about?  If someone had
> stated during a meeting that "this is a selfish
> program", or that we could "take what we want and
> leave the rest" (sadly this happens all too
> often...), do we not, as recovered alcoholics, have
> the responsibility to correct these misperceptions?
> What if another newcomer took one of those
> statements to heart and tried to get sober by being
> selfish or selective?  Most likely, miserable
> failure to get sober will result, and then the
> newcomer starts telling people that AA doesn't work,
> when they never really tried the real AA at all.
>
> Political correctness has had a terrible influence
> in AA; people are afraid to tell someone they're
> wrong because they don't want to offend anyone.
> Well, opinions are like assholes: everyone's got
> one, and they all stink.  But there is only one AA
> program of recovery, and I feel responsible to
> communicate that program when I attend discussion
> meetings.  I try not to be confrontational or
> derogatory; love and tolerance is our code, after
> all.  But I can't idly sit by and let bad
> information be told to people who desperately want
> to get sober.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

I am often very judgmental, which is one of my character defects.
(OK, OK, I can hear some of you now… "No SHIT!!"  * sigh *  C'mon!
Gimme a break! Hear me out!)

Anyway… I'm not just judgmental of others. I'm mostly judgmental of
myself, which translates into self-focused, self-critical, self-
centered fear.

I think this character defect manifests itself mostly in my
relationship with God – I'm never good enough. I fail miserably time
and time again. It also manifests itself in my marriage and in other
relationships as well. Some of you MIGHT have even seen this
character defect of mine rear its ugly head here on these AA boards.

I know it's not my job to remove my own character defects. It's God's
job. I'm supposed to LET HIM and COOPERATE.  And I really do
understand the truth that I can't make myself perfect. Nor can I
demand the same from others.

But there's more to it. We're supposed to use "sound judgment." It's
wise to be discerning. I am responsible for making judgment calls
about what I do and who I spend my time with, right? We have to judge
the actions of others without judging their eternal destiny, correct?

But "using good judgment" and being "judgmental" are two different
things? There's a line there that I cross that I can't seem to see
clearly. It must have something to do with assigning "right"
and "wrong" values, but the line for me is very blurry.

I would love to be the kind of person who didn't pass judgment on
myself or on others, while at the same time using good judgment to
make wise decisions in life.  If I was that kind of person, I could
be more relaxed and happier in my relationship with God and with my
fellows. I could experience more serenity. I could be a more
effective friend, wife, co-worker, and sponsor.

I'm not sure what I expect to hear from others here in this group on
this topic. Maybe I'm just using this board as a safe place to write.
But if anyone has anything to share, I'm all ears…. I mean eyes.

Thanks,
Karen

In western PA, 'cross-talk' is understood as starting a dialogue with another person while sharing during a discussion meeting.  Commenting on someone else's share is not discouraged, as long as it is a monologue.

If we couldn't comment on a perception by a newcomer that was incorrect, how could that person ever learn what our program is really about?  If someone had stated during a meeting that "this is a selfish program", or that we could "take what we want and leave the rest" (sadly this happens all too often...), do we not, as recovered alcoholics, have the responsibility to correct these misperceptions?  What if another newcomer took one of those statements to heart and tried to get sober by being selfish or selective?  Most likely, miserable failure to get sober will result, and then the newcomer starts telling people that AA doesn't work, when they never really tried the real AA at all.

Political correctness has had a terrible influence in AA; people are afraid to tell someone they're wrong because they don't want to offend anyone.  Well, opinions are like assholes: everyone's got one, and they all stink.  But there is only one AA program of recovery, and I feel responsible to communicate that program when I attend discussion meetings.  I try not to be confrontational or derogatory; love and tolerance is our code, after all.  But I can't idly sit by and let bad information be told to people who desperately want to get sober.

well i got sober out in eastern long island back in '94 and thank
god people spoke about what i said at meetings...during the meeting
and afterwards...did i always like what they said...no...but i
listened..because they were sober for a while and i was trying not
to drink...so i needed alot of direction ..not just from a
sponser..my sponser had a year and boy he was on fire wuth this aa
stuff...but i learned from alot old timers in the meetings and
outside the meetings what the real deal was...so i moved back to
albuquerquein the spring of 95 and ....well it was differnt...thats
where i heard about cross talk and this and that...and that u only
talked to your sponser...well im just glad i got sober wherr i did
amd im glad i've stayed sober where i a m...

sam









--- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "Jim K." <jknyc@h...>
wrote:
> I never heard of this as a term until I moved to NYC from eastern
> Long Island in 1997. I first associated cross talk with talking
> while someone else was sharing in a meeting but have since learned
> it is associated with commenting on someone elses' share.
>
> Heavens forbid if someone might say something to someone who is
> sorely mistaken about something. How do people learn - from the
> experience of others hopefully. AA isn't group therapy where
dumping
> out one's problems is any kind of a real solution. Perhaps a
> suggestion by those who have gone down the pathe before us is in
> order - but don't cross talk...
>
> How do you all feel about it?
>
> Jim - Recovered!

One of the things I learned early on was that anything I said in a
meeting was fair game. People were going to comment on what I said
from time to time and I may not like what they had to say. Learning
how to apply the 12 steps to ones' life is not without a few bumps,
scrapes and bruises. I had to learn some hard lessons in life and
the rooms of AA.

What is the purpose of AA meetings anyway? The purpose of a group is
the teaching of the 12 Steps. Meetings are where we demonstrate
these 12 steps in action. Those of us who have recovered are
obligated to carry this message - the message of the 12 steps.
Unlike the popular idea, AA meetings are not group therapy, not a
place to dump our problems, whine and complain. Finding solutions
based on the experience of those who have gone down the path before
us is what it's all about.

Meetings are not always an appropriate place to share certain
things. Sharing that you're lonely may garnish some unwanted
attention. Sharing you closed your bank account and are carrying the
cash with you may get you mugged. Let's not delude ourselves into
thinking that everyone is in AA to get better - some are plainly
not. And we should also consider that some things are for a
sponsor's ear alone - AA meetings are, in reality, a public forum so
don't share something you don't want repeated in an AA meeting.

Jim - Recovered!

In a 12&12 step meeting I used to go to regularly it was written
right into the guidelines before each meeting.  It basically said "No
cross talking about the personal problems of the other persons who
have spoken before you.  If you wish to discuss their personal
problem with them please do so after the meeting."  You could give
them advice such as get a sponsor, try different meetings, or talk
about your similar experiences, but keep it on yourself when your
speaking at the meeting not on them.

Paul

How do you expect me to share my ES&H if there is no 'cross talk?'
To keep the message focused on the truth that is in the book, we
have to comment on anothers share or why have the meeting in the
first place.
This term and meaning should be classified right up there with,
"My disease is out in the parking lot doing pushups."

                                                  Jay - ExAlcoholic!

Jim writes;

I never heard of this as a term until I moved to NYC from eastern
Long Island in 1997. I first associated cross talk with talking
while someone else was sharing in a meeting but have since learned
it is associated with commenting on someone elses' share.

Heavens forbid if someone might say something to someone who is
sorely mistaken about something. How do people learn - from the
experience of others hopefully. AA isn't group therapy where dumping
out one's problems is any kind of a real solution. Perhaps a
suggestion by those who have gone down the pathe before us is in
order - but don't cross talk...

How do you all feel about it?

Jim - Recovered!

I guess crosstalk means different things in different parts of the
country - In Buffalo and Central Virginia it means carrying on a
conversation with the one who's sharing


--- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "Jim K." <jknyc@h...>
wrote:
> I never heard of this as a term until I moved to NYC from eastern
> Long Island in 1997. I first associated cross talk with talking
> while someone else was sharing in a meeting but have since learned
> it is associated with commenting on someone elses' share.
>
> Heavens forbid if someone might say something to someone who is
> sorely mistaken about something. How do people learn - from the
> experience of others hopefully. AA isn't group therapy where
dumping
> out one's problems is any kind of a real solution. Perhaps a
> suggestion by those who have gone down the pathe before us is in
> order - but don't cross talk...
>
> How do you all feel about it?
>
> Jim - Recovered!

Hi Jim,
I'm new to the group here. I took you up on your offer on another
group and decided to see what things were like on this board.

Thank you for the explaination of cross talk. I've seen it being done
now and then but didn't know what it was called.

Since I am reasonably new to the program, I'll have 9 months in
August, I appreciate any and all good information to improve the
quality of my recovery.

Yours In Recovery,
Jocelyn


--- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "Jim K." <jknyc@h...> wrote:
> I never heard of this as a term until I moved to NYC from eastern
> Long Island in 1997. I first associated cross talk with talking
> while someone else was sharing in a meeting but have since learned
> it is associated with commenting on someone elses' share.
>
> Heavens forbid if someone might say something to someone who is
> sorely mistaken about something. How do people learn - from the
> experience of others hopefully. AA isn't group therapy where dumping
> out one's problems is any kind of a real solution. Perhaps a
> suggestion by those who have gone down the pathe before us is in
> order - but don't cross talk...
>
> How do you all feel about it?
>
> Jim - Recovered!

I never heard of this as a term until I moved to NYC from eastern
Long Island in 1997. I first associated cross talk with talking
while someone else was sharing in a meeting but have since learned
it is associated with commenting on someone elses' share.

Heavens forbid if someone might say something to someone who is
sorely mistaken about something. How do people learn - from the
experience of others hopefully. AA isn't group therapy where dumping
out one's problems is any kind of a real solution. Perhaps a
suggestion by those who have gone down the pathe before us is in
order - but don't cross talk...

How do you all feel about it?

Jim - Recovered!

Ok I'll bite Jim. Actually what I should do is respond properly
to the question I asked previously, in the "hypothetical
question"thread. There were several very thoughtful responses and
I never followed up with my own reply. My original question was in
message 342 concerning Step 1.

Let me give a little background on why I asked the question. It
stems from Chapter 3, More About Alcoholism: "We learned that we
had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were
alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we
are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed."

I've heard it said that the line "This is the first step in
recovery" indicates that conceding to our innermost selves that
were alcoholics is all we have to do in order to take Step one.
It seems to me that is insufficient; that the "learning" to
concede is the operative idea, and that although it is the first
step in recovery, this NOT the first step out of the 12.

The way I have always understood the statement is that when we join
AA, we are students, we must be taught just what it means to be an
alcoholic so that we can either qualify or disqualify ourselves as
alcoholics. But until we LEARN what it is to BE an alcoholic (Our
description of the alcoholic-The Doctors Opinion) we haven't
taken the first step toward recovering. Once having absorbed and
understood the definitions of the alcoholic vs. the nonalcoholic and
qualified ourselves as one, we can THEN proceed to Step One and all
of the Steps.

Hardass BB thumper that I am, I do still learn much from you all
through our interactions. I do believe that my perception is
incorrect however it is important that I be precice in such matters
and I welcome the "CROSSTALK" to assist.

Thanks.

Peace,


Danny S
...

Anybody going up to Bill W's for the picnic and hike of Mt Aeolus?  I
want to know if there is going to be any competition for the history
quiz that there having.  "Bone up on your history ~ a quiz during
lunch may lead to a prize!"  If your going I'll see you up there.

Paul