I know we've recovered but have we fallen silent too?

How about a little cross talk to get things going in here?

Jim - stirring the pot a little...

I have a friend in the Bronx who is still "out there" going mad from
alcoholism, and he readily knows and admits that he is an alcoholic.
He has attended several AA meetings with me.

By merit of either of these two facts, he has admitted he is
alcoholic and he has shown up at a meeting, I cannot honestly say
that I believe he has taken Step One.

There are far too many people in AA who still think that they are
alcoholics because they "drank too much" and ruined things. I am a
firm believer that all alcoholics are drunks but not all drunks are
alcoholics.

Peace,

Danny S

Interesting and thoughtful responses. I am still reading them. I
don't think that the simple concession that we are alcoholic is
sufficient in order for us to take Step One. The Big Book says this
is the "first step of recovery", but I don't believe they mean it is
the first step of the 12 steps.

We know that Step One is covered in the first three Chapters of our
Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous. It is interesting just HOW the
authors decided to convey the information necessary for the reader to
take this vital Step.

They use an interesting method: They attempt to teach us about
alcoholism by making "clear the distinction between the alcoholic and
the nonalcoholic." This is their stated hope for the first three
chapters. (44:1) They tell identifying stories, give us examples of
what some of them were like, what happened and then finally what they
are like now. What this tells me is that in order to take Step one,
the authors saw the necessity to first know what the hell alcoholism
is by also knowing what it isn't. If I wanted to describe to a blind
person what LIGHT was I don't know that I could do it easily without
first comparing it to dark (what it isn't) It's a very effective way
of teaching concepts.

This information was essential for me to take Step One and when I
work with others we spend a considerable amount of time on defining
the alcoholic, the way the Big Book does. It matters little what MY
definition or Dr Phil's definition or most AAs definition for that
matter. What doesn't matter, for purposes of this Program is what is
the Program definition of the alcoholic.

Peace,

Danny S

steve ;its in how it works.you are right you don;t have to be an
alcoholic to have an unmanageabe life but i as an alccoholic raveged my
life much more then a non alcoholic would...dudley

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve [mailto:life_search@...]
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 2:02 PM
To: We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [We_Have_Recovered] Re: Hypothetical question


1.  Where in the book is the description of the "unmanageable life"
in regards to the 1st step?  The best I could find was page 52 on the second
full paragraph (The bedevilments).  IT should be noted that this description
does not address alcohol as part of the problem.

That's basically it.

2.  What is the relation of alcohol to our unmanageable lives?  There are
many people in the world who have unmanageable lives who are not alcoholic.
So my question basically is does Alcohol have to be the key factor in the
unmanageability?

There is no relation. We are powerless and our life is unmanageable. Two
separate ideas. Obviously alcohol cant be a necessary condign for an
unmanageable life or there wouldn't be 200 other 12 Step programs with the
same second requirement for Step 1.


I look forward to the groups discussion of the two questions.

Thanks,

Steve

Very interesting and timely question.  I attend a step study that
uses the big book rather than the 12&12.  It breaks the 1st step into
two parts. 1. Admitted we were powerless over alcohol 2. - That our
lives had become unmanageable. This week we will be looking at the
second part of the 1st step.

My story is a bit off center when it comes to taking this step.
Though I am an alcoholic, I took the first step not being completely
convince nor thoroughly understanding the powerless part.  I KNEW my
life was unmanageable. How else could I explain my being in a
treatment center for alcoholism yet not being an alcoholic? (hee
hee)  After all, my life was unmanageable because the rest of the
world was not cooperating with my plans and I felt there was no way
out except death. At almost 40 years old, my life was a real mess! I
identified quite well with the bedevilments on page 52. Regarding
alcohol, I knew I had a problem but did not think I was alcoholic
because at the time I did not understand the physical allergy. Heck,
my brain was so drenched with alcohol, I did not understand much of
anything.  I just knew I hurt inside. So, I took the rest of the
steps not being completely convinced that I was alcoholic.  I just
knew that if I did not change, death was an attractive option.

Taking the steps brought on many changes rapidly. Other changes not
so rapidly, however much progress is being made. The process also
kept me around long enough to take a truthful look at my
powerlessness to alcohol.  The fog in my brain cleared after a few
months and I was able to fully concede to the physical allergy.  Some
people think I was in denial. I believe it was ignorance.  (In other
words I deny my denial. LOL)

As such, I want to ask the group a couple of questions:

1.  Where in the book is the description of the "unmanageable life"
in regards to the 1st step?  The best I could find was page 52 on the
second full paragraph (The bedevilments).  IT should be noted that
this description does not address alcohol as part of the problem.

2.  What is the relation of alcohol to our unmanageable lives?  There
are many people in the world who have unmanageable lives who are not
alcoholic.  So my question basically is does Alcohol have to be the
key factor in the unmanageability?


I look forward to the groups discussion of the two questions.

Thanks,

Steve




--- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "Danny S"
<dschwarzhoff@f...> wrote:
> Let's get a little lively here. Hypothetical question:
>
> I have a problem with booze. I have lost my business, my family,
> mostly all of my friends. I have been in countless detoxes and
rehabs
> and always within days of release, have gone on yet another spree.
I
> am broke and have no prospects for any meaningful work. I long for
> what "used to be" or at least the opportunity I had to pursue my
> career and financial dreams I once saw ahead.
>
> I walk into a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. I join a home group,
> get a sponsor and start making coffee once a week. I also make a
> schedule of meetings for myself and begin to go to a meeting a day.
> I haven't had a drink now in 30 days. I feel hope.
>
> I ask my sponsor if I can now begin the Steps and take Step 1.
>
> He asks me: "Do you concede to your innermost self that you are
> alcoholic"?
>
> If I answer "yes", have I taken step one?
>
> Peace,
>
> Danny S

Danny's on to something here!!  This one really made me think.

I've just recently started sponsoring in the program - so, my answer
will probly have holes but;

I think no.  There are two parts to step one... I believe we need a
full understanding of the powerlessness and maybe more important -
the unmanageability in our lives.

I drank for about 10 years FULLY admitting that I was an alcoholic -
but had myself convinced that made very little difference in how I
was living my life.  I thought I was doing fine and dandy.

But - If one is doing this "conceding to self" with a sponsor... I
think they just may be on their way.

Trina - who is getting married in 14 hours...


> >>>I ask my sponsor if I can now begin the Steps and take Step 1.
>
> He asks me: "Do you concede to your innermost self that you are
> alcoholic"?
>
> If I answer "yes", have I taken step one?
>
> Peace,
>
> Danny S

Danny  wrote:
<< He asks me: "Do you concede to your innermost self that you are
alcoholic"?
If I answer "yes", have I taken step one? >>


I'd say you should also ask if one concedes that their life is unmanageable.
For me, the 1st part of step one was a piece of cake...it's that second part
I had problems with. I believe that's mostly because I was my higher power
and how it be possible for my life to be unmanageable?

Rotax Steve

i beleive i took step one the time i went to my first meeting.i went
from 2 to3 fifths a day to nothing after my first meeting.it was very
obvious to me that i am powerless and that my life was
unmanageable...dudley

Well, perhaps the first part of Step 1. I like to review Step 1 with
newcomers by showing them the alternate wording in the three
pertinent ideas found on page 60. The first of which is the
following:

a). That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.

By "conceding that we're alcoholic" we have taken the first part of
the step. But until we become convinced that we could not manage our
own lives (or that our lives had become unmanageable) we will
continue to suffer from what is the crux of the problem - that we
cannot live in this world with others because we have no "way of
life". We have no way of navigating life without first admitting
that we have failed utterly in managing it ourselves.

Jim - Recovered!




--- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "Danny S"
<dschwarzhoff@f...> wrote:
> Let's get a little lively here. Hypothetical question:
>
> I have a problem with booze. I have lost my business, my family,
> mostly all of my friends. I have been in countless detoxes and
rehabs
> and always within days of release, have gone on yet another spree.
I
> am broke and have no prospects for any meaningful work. I long for
> what "used to be" or at least the opportunity I had to pursue my
> career and financial dreams I once saw ahead.
>
> I walk into a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. I join a home
group,
> get a sponsor and start making coffee once a week. I also make a
> schedule of meetings for myself and begin to go to a meeting a day.
> I haven't had a drink now in 30 days. I feel hope.
>
> I ask my sponsor if I can now begin the Steps and take Step 1.
>
> He asks me: "Do you concede to your innermost self that you are
> alcoholic"?
>
> If I answer "yes", have I taken step one?
>
> Peace,
>
> Danny S

Let's get a little lively here. Hypothetical question:

I have a problem with booze. I have lost my business, my family,
mostly all of my friends. I have been in countless detoxes and rehabs
and always within days of release, have gone on yet another spree. I
am broke and have no prospects for any meaningful work. I long for
what "used to be" or at least the opportunity I had to pursue my
career and financial dreams I once saw ahead.

I walk into a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. I join a home group,
get a sponsor and start making coffee once a week. I also make a
schedule of meetings for myself and begin to go to a meeting a day.
I haven't had a drink now in 30 days. I feel hope.

I ask my sponsor if I can now begin the Steps and take Step 1.

He asks me: "Do you concede to your innermost self that you are
alcoholic"?

If I answer "yes", have I taken step one?

Peace,

Danny S

> you mean we in aa are failing to carry the true message to
> alcoholic...you mean we may b responsible for that...i always heard
> it was the treatment centers fault...
>
>
I've heard that too, Sam (I see that tongue in your cheek) :) They
may contribute to the problem, but treatment centers aren't AA, and
have no duty to embrace our message, program, way of life or
proposals. I really don't care much for what the treatment centers
are telling their "clients" about alcoholism and AA, but if we were
doing our job, instead of walking around on eggshells worrying about
how others thought of us at our own AA meetings, I believe we could
diffuse in quick order just about any misconception walking through
our doors. Instead we exacerbate them. Heck, many of us believe them
as well, it's been going on so long.

Peace,

Danny S

you mean we in aa are failing to carry the true message to
alcoholic...you mean we may b responsible for that...i always heard
it was the treatment centers fault...





cenrer--- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "Danny S"
<dschwarzhoff@f...> wrote:
> I believe that this type of talk stems from failure on OUR part.
We
> no longer qualify the alcoholic, we no longer show him how to self
> diagnose his illness and decide for himself if he is alcoholic or
not
> and we do not properly show him just what "our description of the
> alcoholic" is and what alcoholic insanity is. We are directed to
do
> this in our Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous, but too often we dont'
> Instead we say "Keep coming" and head for the car in the parking
lot.
>
> We are never promised to be free from all forms of insanity. We
are
> promised to be made sane with regard to alcoholic insanity. This
in
> no way means we shall never do anything stupid for the rest of our
> lives. I know that I am still capable of doing things that fit
some
> descriptions of inanity. I'd hardly be human if I didn't.
>
> But the subtle insanity of the first drink, no longer plagues me.
I
> have been saved by the grace of God from it.
>
> Peace,
>
> Danny S

I believe that this type of talk stems from failure on OUR part. We
no longer qualify the alcoholic, we no longer show him how to self
diagnose his illness and decide for himself if he is alcoholic or not
and we do not properly show him just what "our description of the
alcoholic" is and what alcoholic insanity is. We are directed to do
this in our Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous, but too often we dont'
Instead we say "Keep coming" and head for the car in the parking lot.

We are never promised to be free from all forms of insanity. We are
promised to be made sane with regard to alcoholic insanity. This in
no way means we shall never do anything stupid for the rest of our
lives. I know that I am still capable of doing things that fit some
descriptions of inanity. I'd hardly be human if I didn't.

But the subtle insanity of the first drink, no longer plagues me. I
have been saved by the grace of God from it.

Peace,

Danny S

if i had a dollar for everytime i heard someone say in a aa
meeting...i wlll never get well...i will allways be sick. well u
would all be working for me...lol i have heard that alot over the
years and it goes against whats in that darn book...that whole book
and this whole program of recovery is about getting well...if im
gonna stay sick . i might as well keep drinking. it was the perfect
medcine for staying sick..why be sober and sick..kinda defeats the
purpose.

sam




--- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "Jim K." <jknyc@h...>
wrote:
> I often sit in meetings and listen to people with relatively long
> term sobriety claim how "sick they are" or "crazy" or whatever. It
> puzzles me that we don't have higher expectations of the AA
Program.
> Much more is promised to us in our literature.
>
> I am not one to make comments such as these. I have gotten well in
> AA - I no longer suffer from active alcoholism. I no longer crave a
> drink. My life is no longer the shambles it once was. I'm happy to
> report that life is better in all aspects - and the not drinking
> part is just the very beginning of it all.
>
> So don't be afraid to acknowledge ths very fact - we can and do get
> well in AA. It's not some kind of holding pattern that we're in!
>
> Jim - Recovered! [but still in need of AA's principles each day]

Jim said ----> "It puzzles me that we don't have higher expectations
of the AA Program."

I want to add ----> It puzzles me that we don't have higher
expectations of God, too. If He doesn't have the power to make us
free, what good is He?

xoxoxoxox
Karen



--- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "Jim K." <jknyc@h...> wrote:
> I often sit in meetings and listen to people with relatively long
> term sobriety claim how "sick they are" or "crazy" or whatever. It
> puzzles me that we don't have higher expectations of the AA Program.
> Much more is promised to us in our literature.
>
> I am not one to make comments such as these. I have gotten well in
> AA - I no longer suffer from active alcoholism. I no longer crave a
> drink. My life is no longer the shambles it once was. I'm happy to
> report that life is better in all aspects - and the not drinking
> part is just the very beginning of it all.
>
> So don't be afraid to acknowledge ths very fact - we can and do get
> well in AA. It's not some kind of holding pattern that we're in!
>
> Jim - Recovered! [but still in need of AA's principles each day]

I often sit in meetings and listen to people with relatively long
term sobriety claim how "sick they are" or "crazy" or whatever. It
puzzles me that we don't have higher expectations of the AA Program.
Much more is promised to us in our literature.

I am not one to make comments such as these. I have gotten well in
AA - I no longer suffer from active alcoholism. I no longer crave a
drink. My life is no longer the shambles it once was. I'm happy to
report that life is better in all aspects - and the not drinking
part is just the very beginning of it all.

So don't be afraid to acknowledge ths very fact - we can and do get
well in AA. It's not some kind of holding pattern that we're in!

Jim - Recovered! [but still in need of AA's principles each day]

The study up at The Wilson House was a great success! Dave and I had
a great time presenting it and we had plenty of happy participants!
Even though the weather was unusually warm we didn't seem to loose
anyone.

The food was great as always although we went out for steak for
dinner on two nights. The ride up was nice in the new car but longer
than I remembered - especially the trip back. Caught a couple of
meetings in the house over the weekend too!

We visited Bill and Lois' graves which is a "must do" when up there.

Bonnie and Ozzie are doing well as are all of the animals. Dean has
been keeping busy and the house looks pretty good.

Jim

The Grapevine is simply "Our meeting in print". Which means just
about any form of crap can appear, just like in live meetings. LOL

But I think we do get at least a little better "quality" of sharing
with the editing process. We have no such quality control in live
meetings.

But I think it is important to recognize that Grapevine is a
publishing entity onto its own outside of AAWS and NOT Conference
approved literature.

Peace,

Danny S




--- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "soomedrunk"
<SomeDrunk@p...> wrote:
> One must remember that the articles in the Grapevine are the
opinions
> of those who write the articles. Most of which are edited.
>
> Also, the "outside world" does not exist once we have Recovered. We
> become a part of the whole world again, not separate from it
> as "inside AA or outside".
>
> That happens to be the only way we return to normal living. For me
> there is Recovered. Either I am or I am not.
>
> I am either living in the world or I am not. If I am not, then I am
> hiding and not living my life to the best of my ability.
>
> That is the way it is for me. For you, it may be different. I am
> willing to accept that for you it may be different than it is for
me.
>
>
> --- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Maisannes"
> <billmaisannes@y...> wrote:
> > From another list:
> >
> > "Recovered alcoholic" is great for the outside world, but in the
> AA
> > fellowship, the phrase "recovering alcoholic" works and connotes
an
> > active recovery. I have never heard anyone refer to themselves as
a
> > recovered alcoholic in meeting introductions---the past tense of
> that
> > adjective's description might cause un-needed confusion,
especially
> > for newcomers. Sure, we have recovered, but in a daily
> > reprieve...The AA Grapevine ran a series of articles on this last
> > year, too, and came to similar conclusions."
> >
> > I am not interested in debating this person, but I was curious if
> > anyone here reads the Grapevine and read these articles.

One must remember that the articles in the Grapevine are the opinions
of those who write the articles. Most of which are edited.

Also, the "outside world" does not exist once we have Recovered. We
become a part of the whole world again, not separate from it
as "inside AA or outside".

That happens to be the only way we return to normal living. For me
there is Recovered. Either I am or I am not.

I am either living in the world or I am not. If I am not, then I am
hiding and not living my life to the best of my ability.

That is the way it is for me. For you, it may be different. I am
willing to accept that for you it may be different than it is for me.


--- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Maisannes"
<billmaisannes@y...> wrote:
> From another list:
>
> "Recovered alcoholic" is great for the outside world, but in the
AA
> fellowship, the phrase "recovering alcoholic" works and connotes an
> active recovery. I have never heard anyone refer to themselves as a
> recovered alcoholic in meeting introductions---the past tense of
that
> adjective's description might cause un-needed confusion, especially
> for newcomers. Sure, we have recovered, but in a daily
> reprieve...The AA Grapevine ran a series of articles on this last
> year, too, and came to similar conclusions."
>
> I am not interested in debating this person, but I was curious if
> anyone here reads the Grapevine and read these articles.

I agree...

And, Bill WAS a pretty good salesman if I'm not mistaken - gee, what
did he sell?  Securities???  hee hee

I think mostly, he just TRULY understood his audience.  A little
bait & switch never hurt anybody - when they were gettin' more than
they could even fathom!!

Gotta end with my man, Mickey Bush:  "This book is meant to be
suggestive only - well, it bloody well may have been meant to, but
it AIN'T."

I wonder what Mickey does for a living??  LOL

T.
> "You MUST find him now"; they decided was too strong of
language. :)
>
> But isn't if funny how as we go along in the book, we somehow go
from
> Higher Power to GOD, never to return. It reminds of the old bait
and
> switch game in newspaper ads of the 60s & 70s before consumerism
took
> hold.
>
> Some have pegged Bill W as some sort of spiritual "con-man". That
may
> be, :) But isn't it really just an inspired understanding and
> perspective on human nature, which I am convinced left to his own
> devices would never have emerged.
>
>
> Peace,
>
> Danny S
>
> --- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "jedsgirl522"
> <jedsgirl522@y...> wrote:
> > That ONE is GOD... may you find him now.
> >
> > Nice, Danny... thanks for posting that!
> >
> > T.
> >
> >
> > > <<We do need to start somewhere but our understanding must
grow to
> > > become sufficient in it's true purpose - a reliance on It
provides
> > > the foundation for a spiritual life. How we believe, however,
is
> > our
> > > own business.>> JIM K
> > >
> > > And don't forget, when Bill grasped that revolutionary concept
> > gotten
> > > from Ebby, his "own conception of God" and concluded that he
only
> > > need be willing to believe in a Power greater than himself,
this
> > was
> > > only to make a beginning. Nowhere in AA is it ever suggested
that
> > > this is the way to continued sobriety. It is only a way to
begin.
> > >
> > > A real alcoholic cannot stay sober, year in year out, forever
and
> > NOT
> > > find God to be his Higher Power. I have learned to be very
wary
> of
> > > old-timers who claim to be sober for decades and still have
not
> > found
> > > God to be their Higher Power. It's contrary to all we learn in
AA.
> > >
> > > Peace,
> > >
> > > Danny S
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "Jim K."
<jknyc@h...>
> > wrote:
> > > > While the doorknob discussion is interesting I often defer
to
> > our
> > > > basic text as the source of where AA sits on this issue.
More
> > often
> > > > than not I believe that the founders of our fellowship
really
> > meant
> > > > for us to find God. Starting off with a Power greater than
> > > ourselves
> > > > we grow into a relationship with a Power which will solve
our
> > > > problem. An inanimate object scarcely has that power - any
more
> > > than
> > > > we do ourselves.
> > > >
> > > > We do need to start somewhere but our understanding must
grow
> to
> > > > become sufficient in it's true purpose - a reliance on It
> > provides
> > > > the foundation for a spiritual life. How we believe,
however,
> is
> > > our
> > > > own business.
> > > >
> > > > Jim - Recovered!

"You MUST find him now"; they decided was too strong of language. :)

But isn't if funny how as we go along in the book, we somehow go from
Higher Power to GOD, never to return. It reminds of the old bait and
switch game in newspaper ads of the 60s & 70s before consumerism took
hold.

Some have pegged Bill W as some sort of spiritual "con-man". That may
be, :) But isn't it really just an inspired understanding and
perspective on human nature, which I am convinced left to his own
devices would never have emerged.


Peace,

Danny S

--- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "jedsgirl522"
<jedsgirl522@y...> wrote:
> That ONE is GOD... may you find him now.
>
> Nice, Danny... thanks for posting that!
>
> T.
>
>
> > <<We do need to start somewhere but our understanding must grow to
> > become sufficient in it's true purpose - a reliance on It provides
> > the foundation for a spiritual life. How we believe, however, is
> our
> > own business.>> JIM K
> >
> > And don't forget, when Bill grasped that revolutionary concept
> gotten
> > from Ebby, his "own conception of God" and concluded that he only
> > need be willing to believe in a Power greater than himself, this
> was
> > only to make a beginning. Nowhere in AA is it ever suggested that
> > this is the way to continued sobriety. It is only a way to begin.
> >
> > A real alcoholic cannot stay sober, year in year out, forever and
> NOT
> > find God to be his Higher Power. I have learned to be very wary
of
> > old-timers who claim to be sober for decades and still have not
> found
> > God to be their Higher Power. It's contrary to all we learn in AA.
> >
> > Peace,
> >
> > Danny S
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "Jim K." <jknyc@h...>
> wrote:
> > > While the doorknob discussion is interesting I often defer to
> our
> > > basic text as the source of where AA sits on this issue. More
> often
> > > than not I believe that the founders of our fellowship really
> meant
> > > for us to find God. Starting off with a Power greater than
> > ourselves
> > > we grow into a relationship with a Power which will solve our
> > > problem. An inanimate object scarcely has that power - any more
> > than
> > > we do ourselves.
> > >
> > > We do need to start somewhere but our understanding must grow
to
> > > become sufficient in it's true purpose - a reliance on It
> provides
> > > the foundation for a spiritual life. How we believe, however,
is
> > our
> > > own business.
> > >
> > > Jim - Recovered!

That ONE is GOD... may you find him now.

Nice, Danny... thanks for posting that!

T.


> <<We do need to start somewhere but our understanding must grow to
> become sufficient in it's true purpose - a reliance on It provides
> the foundation for a spiritual life. How we believe, however, is
our
> own business.>> JIM K
>
> And don't forget, when Bill grasped that revolutionary concept
gotten
> from Ebby, his "own conception of God" and concluded that he only
> need be willing to believe in a Power greater than himself, this
was
> only to make a beginning. Nowhere in AA is it ever suggested that
> this is the way to continued sobriety. It is only a way to begin.
>
> A real alcoholic cannot stay sober, year in year out, forever and
NOT
> find God to be his Higher Power. I have learned to be very wary of
> old-timers who claim to be sober for decades and still have not
found
> God to be their Higher Power. It's contrary to all we learn in AA.
>
> Peace,
>
> Danny S
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "Jim K." <jknyc@h...>
wrote:
> > While the doorknob discussion is interesting I often defer to
our
> > basic text as the source of where AA sits on this issue. More
often
> > than not I believe that the founders of our fellowship really
meant
> > for us to find God. Starting off with a Power greater than
> ourselves
> > we grow into a relationship with a Power which will solve our
> > problem. An inanimate object scarcely has that power - any more
> than
> > we do ourselves.
> >
> > We do need to start somewhere but our understanding must grow to
> > become sufficient in it's true purpose - a reliance on It
provides
> > the foundation for a spiritual life. How we believe, however, is
> our
> > own business.
> >
> > Jim - Recovered!

<<We do need to start somewhere but our understanding must grow to
become sufficient in it's true purpose - a reliance on It provides
the foundation for a spiritual life. How we believe, however, is our
own business.>> JIM K

And don't forget, when Bill grasped that revolutionary concept gotten
from Ebby, his "own conception of God" and concluded that he only
need be willing to believe in a Power greater than himself, this was
only to make a beginning. Nowhere in AA is it ever suggested that
this is the way to continued sobriety. It is only a way to begin.

A real alcoholic cannot stay sober, year in year out, forever and NOT
find God to be his Higher Power. I have learned to be very wary of
old-timers who claim to be sober for decades and still have not found
God to be their Higher Power. It's contrary to all we learn in AA.

Peace,

Danny S





--- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "Jim K." <jknyc@h...> wrote:
> While the doorknob discussion is interesting I often defer to our
> basic text as the source of where AA sits on this issue. More often
> than not I believe that the founders of our fellowship really meant
> for us to find God. Starting off with a Power greater than
ourselves
> we grow into a relationship with a Power which will solve our
> problem. An inanimate object scarcely has that power - any more
than
> we do ourselves.
>
> We do need to start somewhere but our understanding must grow to
> become sufficient in it's true purpose - a reliance on It provides
> the foundation for a spiritual life. How we believe, however, is
our
> own business.
>
> Jim - Recovered!

:)
--- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "sam garafola"
<samblasted@y...> wrote:
> well theres alot of good stuff there...i can remeber not giving a
> shit what happened to other people...my wish for them was stay
outta
> my way.unless u have somthin good i want...so i read this..well it
> seemed to be in every group i belong to..lol..so by the fourth time
> i did..lol and my thought wasnt that hey someone is wishing all
this
> for me...but, rather, i wasnt to wish everyone i know all of
> this...quite a bit of a lil turnaround from my old thinking...
>
>
> happy easter,
>
> sam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In We_Have_Recovered@yahoogroups.com, "chris"
<chrisbrady7@s...>
> wrote:
> >  "I wish for you..."
> >  Comfort on difficult days,
> >  Smiles when sadness intrudes,
> >  Rainbows to follow the clouds,
> >  Laughter to kiss your lips,
> >  Sunsets to warm your heart
> >  Gentle hugs when spirits sag,
> >  Friendships to brighten your being,
> >  Beauty for your eyes to see,
> >  Confidence for when you doubt,
> >  Faith so that you can believe,
> >  Courage to know yourself,
> >  Patience to accept the truth,
> >  And love to complete your life.
> >  God Bless you!
> >  I asked the Lord to bless you
> >  As I prayed for you today
> >  To guide you and protect you
> >  As you go along your way....
> >  His love is always with you
> >  His promises are true
> >  No matter what the tribulation
> >  You know He will see us through
> >  So, when the road you're traveling on
> >  Seems difficult at best
> >  Give your problems to the Lord
> >  And God will do the rest.