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#2455 From: "Anthony Ellis, M.D." <thetaorunner@...>
Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:47 pm
Subject: Re: Re: What to do next? 		thetaorunner
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
My vasectomist played me off with "watchful waiting" for months. After three months (six months at the outside, definitive treatment certainly makes sense. My vasectomist offered me "resection of the vasectomy sites", which is the same as "conversion to open ended vasectomy". The funny thing is that I had an open ended vasectomy. The hypothesis is that I did not form a sperm granuloma at the vas tip, forming a pressure sink to relieve epididymal back pressure. This was of course a guess on his part. He did not know the literature for treatment of PVPS and never offered reversal. I can tell you that I had to bring up reversal and I could almost hear the coins jingling in his head as he said, "Yeah, we could do that if you want". His price for reversal was about $4000 at the time.

I knew he was:
1) a staunch vasectomy advocate (does over 1000 a year and has had one himself) and had let his interest in my remaining vasectomized cloud his clinical judgement
2) that he was only interested in making about 8 car payments off of my reversal
3) that he never brought up PVPS...ever
4) that I had to suggest reversal
5) that he did his reversals without a microscope (hence the cheaper price... and lower success rates of 88% versus 95% for Dr. Marks).

Needless to say, I did not choose "resection of the vas ends" and went to a reversal specialist who knew about reversal for PVPS and who used a microscope.

Epididymectomy is, at best, a fourth or fifth surgical choice due to its widely variable reported success rates (ranging from under 50% to as high as 70 to 90%). Part of the reason for this is that the case series that are available are usually NOT all epididymectomy for PVPS, but for "all comers" with epididymal pain from any cause incliding trauma, infectious epididymitis, and other causes.

Please consider reading my "long paper" on PVPS if you haven't done so. There are som many new men here recently, that I can't keep track of all of you. Some of you have not read it. I will attach it again. You can print it out and take it with you to appointments with highlighted areas to ask questions, or ask them here. I attached to two best articles on reversal for PVPS and epididymectomy for PVPS also.




--- On Wed, 12/23/09, bstnguy@... <bstnguy@...> wrote:

From: bstnguy@... <bstnguy@...>
Subject: [VasectomyPain] Re: What to do next?
To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 6:15 PM

 

After repeated trips to Urologists and one to the emergency room. I finally called the Urologist that performed my vasectomy and asked him what type of vasectomy I had. I knew it was a no scalpel but thats all I knew. When I was told it was closed ended it began to make sense because most of my pain felt like an abcess ready to burst and every ultrasound showed a lot of swelling in the epididymis. My current Urologist offered to convert it to an open ended but I refused. After all I was told ejaculation and orgasm would not be affected and that dissapeared within a week. I was told chronic pain "never really happens" but it did. Why would I believe anything they tell me about it having no other effects on the body ? I told him I wanted to just be back to where I was before I walked into the office for the vas. If it feels congestive in nature and does not go away (they are probably waiting for your epidiymis to burst) then you can consider an open ended but I would just have it undone. If it is nerve related then you are going to have to take a different course of action. You have to excuse my cynasism but I have had so many bad experiences with so many Urologists over this matter I do not trust a single one. They are very elusive about any potential downside of the procedure (Dont want to kill the golden goose)

--- In VasectomyPain@ yahoogroups. com, SCOTT HOLTER <scottholter@ ...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Sorry guys - I didn't intend to suggest that reversal is for every one.  I was merely pointing out the following:
>
>
>
> 1.  PVP experts seem to attempt non-surgical approaches first, typically via injections and/or nerve-pain meds and/or anti-inflammatories
>
>
>
> 2.  If these don't work, then Dr. Paretkill's (sp?) appraoch seems like a good bet for neuropathic pain.
>
>
>
> 3.  If the pain is all or partly congestive, reversal has been proven to be the best surgical option.
>
>
>
> 4.  Epi removal is at best a 50/50 proposition that adds other risks such as cutting off the blood-flow to the testicles and damaging other nerves
>
>
>
> While I guess I may be overstated the case for reversal, that was not my intent.   My intent was to state that among surgical options for congestive PVP, reversal has been shown by medical research to be a better option than epi removal.
>
>
>
> Let me know if you disagree.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Hokenson" <hokendog@.. .>
> To: VasectomyPain@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 4:19:13 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike's right.  I had the reversal and it did not offer any relief. 
>
> -Eric
>
> --- On Wed, 12/23/09, mikeharris122@ ... <mikeharris122@ ...> wrote:
>
>
>
> From: mikeharris122@ ... <mikeharris122@ ...>
> Subject: Re: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?
> To: VasectomyPain@ yahoogroups. com
> Date: Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 12:58 PM
>
>
>
>
> Um, reversal isn't an option for everybody. Period. There's more than one person here who had no relief from reversal and I'm one who stood a 50 50 chance of making things worse. Reversal works for many, but many reversal's still have residual pain. Patience and a 3 month target are what's most important for you right now. People who immediately "have the answer" are just as bad as the urologists happily hacking away at body parts and wondering why its not working!
> Each case here is individual and needs to be treated as such!!
> And PLEASE no politics!!
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> From: SCOTT HOLTER <scottholter@ ...>
> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:16:21 -0500 (EST)
> To: <VasectomyPain@ yahoogroups. com>
> Cc: <VasectomyPain@ yahoogroups. com>
> Subject: Re: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?
>
>
>
> UGH!  Don't do it!  Why on God's green earth would a surgeon recommend more of the same instead of doing his best to put you back in the same state as you were prior to the vasectomy?  It's like the politicians that think more debt and more spending will help this economy.  But I digress.  My guess is that he's (a) only capable of removing organs, but not capable of performing the micro-surgical vasovasostomy that has a better chance of helping or (b) he need to up his billings so he's recommended a surgery that helps me make his quota.  Either way, you're getting REALLY bad advice for a biased, likely inexperienced source.
>
> First, download a copy of "If It's Not broke, Don't Fix It" from Kevin Hauber's website www.dontfixit. org  and read it cover to cover.  Kevin had several procedures and regrets many of them except his reversal.  Then, talk with Kevin via phone and also talk with Dr. Ellis via phone.  They are the two most well-read, best non-urologists in the US and can explain why you're getting such crappy advice.
>
> Then, no matter how far you have to travel, have an  in-person (or at least by phone) consult with one of the handful of surgeons that have actually helped members of this community and are PVP experienced.  That may actually save your life.  I'm not joking...... I credit Dr. Thomas at the Cleveland Clinic with literally saving my life, but he has since retired.  Near as I can tell, here's a partial list of experts in treating PVP.
>
> Dr. Edmund Sabanegh (Cleveland Clinic, Cleveland OH)
> Dr. Werthman (LA - Eric and Kevin Hauber's guy)
> Dr. Marks (Tucson, AZ - a terrific guy - I had a phone consult with him)
> Dr. Michael Witt (Atlanta, GA)
> Dr. Pienkos (New Mexico, I believe)
>
> I and many others I have spoken with have literally had their lives restored by these men.
>
> I know therre are others in Boston and NYC but the names don't come to mind, but I'm sure others will chime in.  Kevin's website also lists a few.
>
> Epi removal is a coin toss and should only be tried as a last resort if the much simpler, much less risky reversal doesn't work, in my non-medical but experienced opinion.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "neworderfan4" <neworderfan4@ ...>
> To: VasectomyPain@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:37:09 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?
>
>  
>
> I have another appointment today. I had a second opinion and that doctor said that 7-8 weeks isn't bad but when it gets to 12 weeks and the pain is still there then he would be worried.
>
> My surgeon is thinking about going back in and taking more of the vas out and possibly taking the epididymous out.
>
> Has anyone heard of this?
>
> Can it get worse if surgery is one of the options?
>
> What would you guys do?
>


4 of 4 File(s)


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (16)
#2454 From: "Anthony Ellis, M.D." <thetaorunner@...>
Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:18 pm
Subject: Re: What to do next? 		thetaorunner
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
The answer to your question is in this excerpt from the www.PainAfterVasectomy.org website:

Once a diagnosis of PVP has been made, there are several treatment options available. Conservative treatment includes use of a scrotal support to decrease movement of affected and inflamed areas, avoidance of sexual activity or vigorous physical activity, heat therapy to support the cellular response to congestion and inflammation, and anti-inflamatory medications such as Motrin, Aleve, or Celebrex (if there are no contraindications). Antibiotics have not been used successfully in the absence of overt infection. Some patients report positive results with ice to the affected area or pool therapy, perhaps due to the cool water and lack of effects of gravity on scrotal contents. In a recent review, Tandon and Sabanegh recommended conservative management and three months of NSAID treatment before moving on to more aggressive treatment options. Some men with mild PVP respond to the conservative approach and their pain does not last longer than three months. A condition called congestive epididymitis frequently follows this time course and may resolve in weeks or months with conservative management. This benign course may be seen in men with a less vigorous anti-sperm antibody response, or in patients where the compensatory mechanisms for sperm absorption and removal are not easily overwhelmed. In a large retrospective case series reported by Ahmed et al, 5% of patients had pain that lasted longer than three months, but the Leslie et al prospective audit noted 15% of men had pain at seven months post-vasectomy. Clearly, there is something different about the patients who continue to have pain and require further medical or surgical treatment. Spontaneous remission of PVP becomes increasingly rare after nine months and these men usually need more definitive treatment, although there are individual reports of patients symptoms "settling down" as late as three years post-vasectomy. Watchful waiting and conservative management might be advocated as long as the symptoms are improving, not disabling, and are not having severe effects on sexual function. There are no studies in the literature on the effect of this waiting and conservative management as to final treatment outcome. A case could be made for more definitive treatment after three months of conservative treatment based on the severity of symptoms, effects on sexual function, and the likelihood of increased chronic neuropathic pain development related to symptom chronicity.

If conservative treatments fail to provide relief, pain management strategies can be utilized while considering more definitive treatment. Nerve blockade in the spermatic cord may be attempted especially in cases where neuralgia is expected based on the patient’s symptoms and physical exam, but relief would seem to be transient and this would not address the underlying inflammatory process. A third of the patients in the Nangia et al series had nerve block procedures and yet their pain persisted and required vasovasostomy (Nangia, et al, 2000). There is a case series of three patients in the literature treated using pulsed radiofrequency of nerves supplying the affected area, but these treatments may have more utility in CTP or groin pain after hernia surgery, than in PVPS (Cohen and Foster, 2003). Using chronic pain approaches with antidepressants or anticonvulsants has produced poor results in general in post-vasectomy pain patients while helping others with idiopathic orchialgia (Sinclair et al, 2007). There is a case report in the literature promoting the use of testosterone cypionate injections of 400mg monthly for three months to suppress sperm production to treat PVPS. The hypothesis that PVPS is due to inflammation and chronic antigenic stimulus from sperm seems plausible, but this treatment has not gained in popularity and prospective confirmation of efficacy is lacking (Pienkos, 2007). The idea that by inducing azoospermia, one could treat the inflammation and delay or prevent perineural scarring and fibrosis in the epididymides is novel and worthy of a randomized controlled trail to possibly add to the non-surgical treatment of PVP as this treatment preserves desired sterility.

Definitive treatment of PVPS that fails conservative management is primarily surgical. A variety of procedures have been tried with varying degrees of success. They are listed here in increasingly aggressive order: Conversion to open vasectomy, microsurgical denervation of the spermatic cord, vasovasostomy, epididymectomy, and inguinal orchiectomy (Granitsiotis and Kirk, 2004). Conversion to open vasectomy is felt to reduce the pressure buildup in the closed system and encourage the formation of a sperm granuloma to relieve this pressure over time. There is a small series in the literature showing resolution of “pain on ejaculation after vasectomy” by this technique (Edwards and Errey, 1982). Microsurgical denervation of the spermatic cord has been used to treat chronic orchialgia of any cause with good results in over 70% of patients in some series (Levine et al, 1996, Strom and Levine, 2008), but was associated with testicular atrophy in a small percentage of cases. One series reported by Heidenreich et al achieved success in 96% of patients and concluded: “Microsurgical testicular denervation results in reliable and reproducible excellent therapeutic success rates of 96% and should be integrated in the management of CTP at an early stage. High success rates require adequate and meticulous diagnostic work-up of the patients by spermatic cord block using saline as placebo and different local anesthetics as an initial therapeutic armentarium predicting postoperative outcome” (Heidenreich et al, 2002). Their results may not directly apply to PVPS patients as these studies involved CTP patients. 

Vasovasostomy has been effective in up to 75% to 85% of patients and has been studied specifically with PVPS patients (Myers et al, 1997, Nangia et al, 2000), but restores unwanted fertility. In the Myers et al series, eight patients of thirty-two had continued symptoms and six of these underwent a second reversal procedure, eventually leading to resolution of pain in twenty-seven of thirty-two patients in the series. In another series, vasovasostomy resulted in complete resolution of pain in nine of thirteen patients with PVPS (Nangia et al, 2000). In the Nangia et al series, when they included complete cure or significant improvement as an endpoint, they had success with 85% of patients. Twenty three percent of the patients in the Nangia et al series and nineteen percent of those in the Myers series required a second surgical intervention; generally repeat vasovasostomy, for pain relief. Several patients had relief that lasted months or years, only to have reoccurrence. Despite its success, insurance carriers do frequently not cover vasovasostomy for PVP and cost of the procedure can be a barrier for some patients.

Epididymectomy was effective in 50% of patients in a small series of ten patients with PVP (Chen and Ball, 1991). In another series, fourteen of sixteen patients improved with epididymectomy and factors associated with poor outcome included testicular or groin pain, erectile dysfunction, and normal ultrasound appearance of the epididymides (West et al, 2000). Sweeney at al that concluded that epididymectomy has a limited role in PVP after a poor response rate in their series (Sweeney et al, 2008). As a tragic last resort, inguinal orchiectomy has been used to treat refractory PVP with varying success.




--- On Wed, 12/23/09, neworderfan4 <neworderfan4@...> wrote:

From: neworderfan4 <neworderfan4@...>
Subject: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?
To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 12:37 PM

 

I have another appointment today. I had a second opinion and that doctor said that 7-8 weeks isn't bad but when it gets to 12 weeks and the pain is still there then he would be worried.

My surgeon is thinking about going back in and taking more of the vas out and possibly taking the epididymous out.

Has anyone heard of this?

Can it get worse if surgery is one of the options?

What would you guys do?


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (16)
#2453 From: "bstnguy@..." <bstnguy@...>
Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:15 pm
Subject: Re: What to do next? 		bstnguy...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
After repeated trips to Urologists and one to the emergency room.  I finally
called the Urologist that performed my vasectomy and asked him what type of
vasectomy I had.  I knew it was a no scalpel but thats all I knew.  When I was
told it was closed ended it began to make sense because most of my pain felt
like an abcess ready to burst and every ultrasound showed a lot of swelling in
the epididymis. My current Urologist offered to convert it to an open ended but
I refused.  After all I was told ejaculation and orgasm would not be affected
and that dissapeared within a week.  I was told chronic pain "never really
happens" but it did.  Why would I believe anything they tell me about it having
no other effects on the body ?  I told him I wanted to just be back to where I
was before I walked into the office for the vas.  If it feels congestive in
nature and does not go away (they are probably waiting for your epidiymis to
burst) then you can consider an open ended but I would just have it undone.  If
it is nerve related then you are going to have to take a different course of
action.  You have to excuse my cynasism but I have had so many bad experiences
with so many Urologists over this matter I do not trust a single one.  They are
very elusive about any potential downside of the procedure (Dont want to kill
the golden goose)

--- In VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com, SCOTT HOLTER <scottholter@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Sorry guys - I didn't intend to suggest that reversal is for every one.  I
was merely pointing out the following:
>
>
>
> 1.  PVP experts seem to attempt non-surgical approaches first, typically via
injections and/or nerve-pain meds and/or anti-inflammatories
>
>
>
> 2.  If these don't work, then Dr. Paretkill's (sp?) appraoch seems like a
good bet for neuropathic pain.
>
>
>
> 3.  If the pain is all or partly congestive, reversal has been proven to
be the best surgical option.
>
>
>
> 4.  Epi removal is at best a 50/50 proposition that adds other risks such as
cutting off the blood-flow to the testicles and damaging other nerves
>
>
>
> While I guess I may be overstated the case for reversal, that was not my
intent.   My intent was to state that among surgical options for congestive
PVP, reversal has been shown by medical research to be a better option than epi
removal.
>
>
>
> Let me know if you disagree.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Hokenson" <hokendog@...>
> To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 4:19:13 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike's right.  I had the reversal and it did not offer any relief. 
>
> -Eric
>
> --- On Wed, 12/23/09, mikeharris122@... <mikeharris122@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> From: mikeharris122@... <mikeharris122@...>
> Subject: Re: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?
> To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 12:58 PM
>
>
>
>
> Um, reversal isn't an option for everybody. Period. There's more than one
person here who had no relief from reversal and I'm one who stood a 50 50 chance
of making things worse. Reversal works for many, but many reversal's still have
residual pain. Patience and a 3 month target are what's most important for you
right now. People who immediately "have the answer" are just as bad as the
urologists happily hacking away at body parts and wondering why its not working!
> Each case here is individual and needs to be treated as such!!
> And PLEASE no politics!!
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> From: SCOTT HOLTER <scottholter@...>
> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:16:21 -0500 (EST)
> To: <VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com>
> Cc: <VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?
>
>
>
> UGH!  Don't do it!  Why on God's green earth would a surgeon recommend more
of the same instead of doing his best to put you back in the same state as you
were prior to the vasectomy?  It's like the politicians that think more debt
and more spending will help this economy.  But I digress.  My guess is that
he's (a) only capable of removing organs, but not capable of performing the
micro-surgical vasovasostomy that has a better chance of helping or (b) he need
to up his billings so he's recommended a surgery that helps me make his quota. 
Either way, you're getting REALLY bad advice for a biased, likely inexperienced
source.
>
> First, download a copy of "If It's Not broke, Don't Fix It" from Kevin
Hauber's website www.dontfixit.org  and read it cover to cover.  Kevin had
several procedures and regrets many of them except his reversal.  Then, talk
with Kevin via phone and also talk with Dr. Ellis via phone.  They are the two
most well-read, best non-urologists in the US and can explain why you're
getting such crappy advice.
>
> Then, no matter how far you have to travel, have an  in-person (or at least
by phone) consult with one of the handful of surgeons that have actually helped
members of this community and are PVP experienced.  That may actually save your
life.  I'm not joking......I credit Dr. Thomas at the Cleveland Clinic with
literally saving my life, but he has since retired.  Near as I can tell, here's
a partial list of experts in treating PVP.
>
> Dr. Edmund Sabanegh (Cleveland Clinic, Cleveland OH)
> Dr. Werthman (LA - Eric and Kevin Hauber's guy)
> Dr. Marks (Tucson, AZ - a terrific guy - I had a phone consult with him)
> Dr. Michael Witt (Atlanta, GA)
> Dr. Pienkos (New Mexico, I believe)
>
> I and many others I have spoken with have literally had their lives restored
by these men.
>
> I know therre are others in Boston and NYC but the names don't come to
mind, but I'm sure others will chime in.  Kevin's website also lists a few.
>
> Epi removal is a coin toss and should only be tried as a last resort if the
much simpler, much less risky reversal doesn't work, in my non-medical but
experienced opinion.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "neworderfan4" <neworderfan4@...>
> To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:37:09 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?
>
>  
>
> I have another appointment today. I had a second opinion and that doctor said
that 7-8 weeks isn't bad but when it gets to 12 weeks and the pain is still
there then he would be worried.
>
> My surgeon is thinking about going back in and taking more of the vas out and
possibly taking the epididymous out.
>
> Has anyone heard of this?
>
> Can it get worse if surgery is one of the options?
>
> What would you guys do?
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (16)
#2452 From: "raising4daughters" <scottholter@...>
Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:08 pm
Subject: Re: What to do next? 		ridesaklein
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
In addition, I would love to be able to drop politics from healthcare
discussions like this, but perhaps this story will help explain why I'm bitter
about politicians (D's and R's).  Politics and healthcare are, unfortunately,
now linked forever.

Due to the skyrocketing costs of healthcare, insurance companies such as Aetna,
Humana, Wellpoint, and others have had their stocks rise to 52-week highs.  All
is good in insurance land that doesn't cover men's reversals for PVP.

Further, because of these costs, I learned last week that I'm losing  my
prescription drug benefit starting in 2010.  So, instead of paying $10 for my
300mg gabapentin for PVP, I'll be paying list price.  That'll be about $60 per
month.  I can get 100mg pills cheap but am not confident those will be strong
enough.

I don't want a pity party, but thought a little background might explain why I'm
a little ticked off at the pols and insurance lobby these days.

I apologize if my words offended you.





--- In VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com, mikeharris122@... wrote:
>
> Um, reversal isn't an option for everybody. Period. There's more than one
person here who had no relief from reversal and I'm one who stood a 50 50 chance
of making things worse. Reversal works for many, but many reversal's still have
residual pain. Patience and a 3 month target are what's most important for you
right now. People who immediately "have the answer" are just as bad as the
urologists happily hacking away at body parts and wondering why its not working!
> Each case here is individual and needs to be treated as such!!
> And PLEASE no politics!!
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SCOTT HOLTER <scottholter@...>
> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:16:21
> To: <VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com>
> Cc: <VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?
>
>
>
> UGH!  Don't do it!  Why on God's green earth would a surgeon recommend more
of the same instead of doing his best to put you back in the same state as you
were prior to the vasectomy?  It's like the politicians that think more debt
and more spending will help this economy.  But I digress.  My guess is that
he's (a) only capable of removing organs, but not capable of performing the
micro-surgical vasovasostomy that has a better chance of helping or (b) he need
to up his billings so he's recommended a surgery that helps me make his quota. 
Either way, you're getting REALLY bad advice for a biased, likely inexperienced
source.
>
>
>
> First, download a copy of "If It's Not broke, Don't Fix It" from Kevin
Hauber's website www.dontfixit.org  and read it cover to cover.  Kevin had
several procedures and regrets many of them except his reversal.  Then, talk
with Kevin via phone and also talk with Dr. Ellis via phone.  They are the two
most well-read, best non-urologists in the US and can explain why you're
getting such crappy advice.
>
>
>
> Then, no matter how far you have to travel, have an  in-person (or at least
by phone) consult with one of the handful of surgeons that have actually helped
members of this community and are PVP experienced.  That may actually save your
life.  I'm not joking......I credit Dr. Thomas at the Cleveland Clinic with
literally saving my life, but he has since retired.  Near as I can tell, here's
a partial list of experts in treating PVP.
>
>
>
> Dr. Edmund Sabanegh (Cleveland Clinic, Cleveland OH)
>
> Dr. Werthman (LA - Eric and Kevin Hauber's guy)
>
> Dr. Marks (Tucson, AZ - a terrific guy - I had a phone consult with him)
>
> Dr. Michael Witt (Atlanta, GA)
>
> Dr. Pienkos (New Mexico, I believe)
>
>
>
> I and many others I have spoken with have literally had their lives restored
by these men.
>
>
>
> I know therre are others in Boston and NYC but the names don't come to
mind, but I'm sure others will chime in.  Kevin's website also lists a few.
>
>
>
> Epi removal is a coin toss and should only be tried as a last resort if the
much simpler, much less risky reversal doesn't work, in my non-medical but
experienced opinion.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "neworderfan4" <neworderfan4@...>
> To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:37:09 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?
>
>  
>
>
>
>
> I have another appointment today. I had a second opinion and that doctor said
that 7-8 weeks isn't bad but when it gets to 12 weeks and the pain is still
there then he would be worried.
>
> My surgeon is thinking about going back in and taking more of the vas out and
possibly taking the epididymous out.
>
> Has anyone heard of this?
>
> Can it get worse if surgery is one of the options?
>
> What would you guys do?
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (16)
#2451 From: SCOTT HOLTER <scottholter@...>
Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:54 pm
Subject: Re: What to do next? 		ridesaklein
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 

Sorry guys - I didn't intend to suggest that reversal is for every one.  I was merely pointing out the following:

 

1.  PVP experts seem to attempt non-surgical approaches first, typically via injections and/or nerve-pain meds and/or anti-inflammatories

 

2.  If these don't work, then Dr. Paretkill's (sp?) appraoch seems like a good bet for neuropathic pain.

 

3.  If the pain is all or partly congestive, reversal has been proven to be the best surgical option.

 

4.  Epi removal is at best a 50/50 proposition that adds other risks such as cutting off the blood-flow to the testicles and damaging other nerves

 

While I guess I may be overstated the case for reversal, that was not my intent.   My intent was to state that among surgical options for congestive PVP, reversal has been shown by medical research to be a better option than epi removal.

 

Let me know if you disagree.

 


----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Hokenson" <hokendog@...>
To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 4:19:13 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?

 

Mike's right.  I had the reversal and it did not offer any relief. 
 
-Eric

--- On Wed, 12/23/09, mikeharris122@... <mikeharris122@...> wrote:

From: mikeharris122@... <mikeharris122@...>
Subject: Re: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?
To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 12:58 PM



Um, reversal isn't an option for everybody. Period. There's more than one person here who had no relief from reversal and I'm one who stood a 50 50 chance of making things worse. Reversal works for many, but many reversal's still have residual pain. Patience and a 3 month target are what's most important for you right now. People who immediately "have the answer" are just as bad as the urologists happily hacking away at body parts and wondering why its not working!
Each case here is individual and needs to be treated as such!!
And PLEASE no politics!!
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: SCOTT HOLTER <scottholter@...>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:16:21 -0500 (EST)
To: <VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?

UGH!  Don't do it!  Why on God's green earth would a surgeon recommend more of the same instead of doing his best to put you back in the same state as you were prior to the vasectomy?  It's like the politicians that think more debt and more spending will help this economy.  But I digress.  My guess is that he's (a) only capable of removing organs, but not capable of performing the micro-surgical vasovasostomy that has a better chance of helping or (b) he need to up his billings so he's recommended a surgery that helps me make his quota.  Either way, you're getting REALLY bad advice for a biased, likely inexperienced source.
 
First, download a copy of "If It's Not broke, Don't Fix It" from Kevin Hauber's website www.dontfixit.org and read it cover to cover.  Kevin had several procedures and regrets many of them except his reversal.  Then, talk with Kevin via phone and also talk with Dr. Ellis via phone.  They are the two most well-read, best non-urologists in the US and can explain why you're getting such crappy advice.
 
Then, no matter how far you have to travel, have an  in-person (or at least by phone) consult with one of the handful of surgeons that have actually helped members of this community and are PVP experienced.  That may actually save your life.  I'm not joking......I credit Dr. Thomas at the Cleveland Clinic with literally saving my life, but he has since retired.  Near as I can tell, here's a partial list of experts in treating PVP.
 
Dr. Edmund Sabanegh (Cleveland Clinic, Cleveland OH)
Dr. Werthman (LA - Eric and Kevin Hauber's guy)
Dr. Marks (Tucson, AZ - a terrific guy - I had a phone consult with him)
Dr. Michael Witt (Atlanta, GA)
Dr. Pienkos (New Mexico, I believe)
 
I and many others I have spoken with have literally had their lives restored by these men.
 
I know therre are others in Boston and NYC but the names don't come to mind, but I'm sure others will chime in.  Kevin's website also lists a few.
 
Epi removal is a coin toss and should only be tried as a last resort if the much simpler, much less risky reversal doesn't work, in my non-medical but experienced opinion.
 
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "neworderfan4" <neworderfan4@...>
To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:37:09 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?

 
I have another appointment today. I had a second opinion and that doctor said that 7-8 weeks isn't bad but when it gets to 12 weeks and the pain is still there then he would be worried.

My surgeon is thinking about going back in and taking more of the vas out and possibly taking the epididymous out.

Has anyone heard of this?

Can it get worse if surgery is one of the options?

What would you guys do?





Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (16)
#2450 From: Eric Hokenson <hokendog@...>
Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:19 pm
Subject: Re: What to do next? 		hokendog
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Mike's right.  I had the reversal and it did not offer any relief. 
 
-Eric

--- On Wed, 12/23/09, mikeharris122@... <mikeharris122@...> wrote:

From: mikeharris122@... <mikeharris122@...>
Subject: Re: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?
To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 12:58 PM



Um, reversal isn't an option for everybody. Period. There's more than one person here who had no relief from reversal and I'm one who stood a 50 50 chance of making things worse. Reversal works for many, but many reversal's still have residual pain. Patience and a 3 month target are what's most important for you right now. People who immediately "have the answer" are just as bad as the urologists happily hacking away at body parts and wondering why its not working!
Each case here is individual and needs to be treated as such!!
And PLEASE no politics!!
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: SCOTT HOLTER <scottholter@...>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:16:21 -0500 (EST)
To: <VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?

UGH!  Don't do it!  Why on God's green earth would a surgeon recommend more of the same instead of doing his best to put you back in the same state as you were prior to the vasectomy?  It's like the politicians that think more debt and more spending will help this economy.  But I digress.  My guess is that he's (a) only capable of removing organs, but not capable of performing the micro-surgical vasovasostomy that has a better chance of helping or (b) he need to up his billings so he's recommended a surgery that helps me make his quota.  Either way, you're getting REALLY bad advice for a biased, likely inexperienced source.
 
First, download a copy of "If It's Not broke, Don't Fix It" from Kevin Hauber's website www.dontfixit.org and read it cover to cover.  Kevin had several procedures and regrets many of them except his reversal.  Then, talk with Kevin via phone and also talk with Dr. Ellis via phone.  They are the two most well-read, best non-urologists in the US and can explain why you're getting such crappy advice.
 
Then, no matter how far you have to travel, have an  in-person (or at least by phone) consult with one of the handful of surgeons that have actually helped members of this community and are PVP experienced.  That may actually save your life.  I'm not joking......I credit Dr. Thomas at the Cleveland Clinic with literally saving my life, but he has since retired.  Near as I can tell, here's a partial list of experts in treating PVP.
 
Dr. Edmund Sabanegh (Cleveland Clinic, Cleveland OH)
Dr. Werthman (LA - Eric and Kevin Hauber's guy)
Dr. Marks (Tucson, AZ - a terrific guy - I had a phone consult with him)
Dr. Michael Witt (Atlanta, GA)
Dr. Pienkos (New Mexico, I believe)
 
I and many others I have spoken with have literally had their lives restored by these men.
 
I know therre are others in Boston and NYC but the names don't come to mind, but I'm sure others will chime in.  Kevin's website also lists a few.
 
Epi removal is a coin toss and should only be tried as a last resort if the much simpler, much less risky reversal doesn't work, in my non-medical but experienced opinion.
 
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "neworderfan4" <neworderfan4@...>
To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:37:09 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?

 
I have another appointment today. I had a second opinion and that doctor said that 7-8 weeks isn't bad but when it gets to 12 weeks and the pain is still there then he would be worried.

My surgeon is thinking about going back in and taking more of the vas out and possibly taking the epididymous out.

Has anyone heard of this?

Can it get worse if surgery is one of the options?

What would you guys do?





Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (16)
#2449 From: mikeharris122@...
Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:58 pm
Subject: Re: What to do next? 		opn2itsd
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Um, reversal isn't an option for everybody. Period. There's more than one person here who had no relief from reversal and I'm one who stood a 50 50 chance of making things worse. Reversal works for many, but many reversal's still have residual pain. Patience and a 3 month target are what's most important for you right now. People who immediately "have the answer" are just as bad as the urologists happily hacking away at body parts and wondering why its not working!
Each case here is individual and needs to be treated as such!!
And PLEASE no politics!!

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

From: SCOTT HOLTER <scottholter@...>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:16:21 -0500 (EST)
To: <VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?

UGH!  Don't do it!  Why on God's green earth would a surgeon recommend more of the same instead of doing his best to put you back in the same state as you were prior to the vasectomy?  It's like the politicians that think more debt and more spending will help this economy.  But I digress.  My guess is that he's (a) only capable of removing organs, but not capable of performing the micro-surgical vasovasostomy that has a better chance of helping or (b) he need to up his billings so he's recommended a surgery that helps me make his quota.  Either way, you're getting REALLY bad advice for a biased, likely inexperienced source.

 

First, download a copy of "If It's Not broke, Don't Fix It" from Kevin Hauber's website www.dontfixit.org and read it cover to cover.  Kevin had several procedures and regrets many of them except his reversal.  Then, talk with Kevin via phone and also talk with Dr. Ellis via phone.  They are the two most well-read, best non-urologists in the US and can explain why you're getting such crappy advice.

 

Then, no matter how far you have to travel, have an  in-person (or at least by phone) consult with one of the handful of surgeons that have actually helped members of this community and are PVP experienced.  That may actually save your life.  I'm not joking......I credit Dr. Thomas at the Cleveland Clinic with literally saving my life, but he has since retired.  Near as I can tell, here's a partial list of experts in treating PVP.

 

Dr. Edmund Sabanegh (Cleveland Clinic, Cleveland OH)

Dr. Werthman (LA - Eric and Kevin Hauber's guy)

Dr. Marks (Tucson, AZ - a terrific guy - I had a phone consult with him)

Dr. Michael Witt (Atlanta, GA)

Dr. Pienkos (New Mexico, I believe)

 

I and many others I have spoken with have literally had their lives restored by these men.

 

I know therre are others in Boston and NYC but the names don't come to mind, but I'm sure others will chime in.  Kevin's website also lists a few.

 

Epi removal is a coin toss and should only be tried as a last resort if the much simpler, much less risky reversal doesn't work, in my non-medical but experienced opinion.

 

 

 

 


----- Original Message -----
From: "neworderfan4" <neworderfan4@...>
To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:37:09 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?

 

I have another appointment today. I had a second opinion and that doctor said that 7-8 weeks isn't bad but when it gets to 12 weeks and the pain is still there then he would be worried.

My surgeon is thinking about going back in and taking more of the vas out and possibly taking the epididymous out.

Has anyone heard of this?

Can it get worse if surgery is one of the options?

What would you guys do?


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (16)
#2448 From: "divemastermac108" <divemastermac@...>
Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:21 pm
Subject: Re: What to do next? 		divemasterma...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
Get it REVERSED!
That is what I did after 12 LONG years of suffering!
I only wish I had done it sooner.
And don't let them remove your epi's.
It just clogs it further up the line.
And you can NEVER get a surgery to make that right.
The option after that would be removal of the testicle to eliminate the pain.
I'm 12 days past a successful reversal and already feeling better.
The pain from the surgery hurts less than the pain leading up to it.
~Scott Mac


--- In VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com, "neworderfan4" <neworderfan4@...> wrote:
>
> I have another appointment today. I had a second opinion and that doctor said
that 7-8 weeks isn't bad but when it gets to 12 weeks and the pain is still
there then he would be worried.
>
> My surgeon is thinking about going back in and taking more of the vas out and
possibly taking the epididymous out.
>
> Has anyone heard of this?
>
> Can it get worse if surgery is one of the options?
>
> What would you guys do?
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (16)
#2447 From: SCOTT HOLTER <scottholter@...>
Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:16 pm
Subject: Re: What to do next? 		ridesaklein
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 

UGH!  Don't do it!  Why on God's green earth would a surgeon recommend more of the same instead of doing his best to put you back in the same state as you were prior to the vasectomy?  It's like the politicians that think more debt and more spending will help this economy.  But I digress.  My guess is that he's (a) only capable of removing organs, but not capable of performing the micro-surgical vasovasostomy that has a better chance of helping or (b) he need to up his billings so he's recommended a surgery that helps me make his quota.  Either way, you're getting REALLY bad advice for a biased, likely inexperienced source.

 

First, download a copy of "If It's Not broke, Don't Fix It" from Kevin Hauber's website www.dontfixit.org and read it cover to cover.  Kevin had several procedures and regrets many of them except his reversal.  Then, talk with Kevin via phone and also talk with Dr. Ellis via phone.  They are the two most well-read, best non-urologists in the US and can explain why you're getting such crappy advice.

 

Then, no matter how far you have to travel, have an  in-person (or at least by phone) consult with one of the handful of surgeons that have actually helped members of this community and are PVP experienced.  That may actually save your life.  I'm not joking......I credit Dr. Thomas at the Cleveland Clinic with literally saving my life, but he has since retired.  Near as I can tell, here's a partial list of experts in treating PVP.

 

Dr. Edmund Sabanegh (Cleveland Clinic, Cleveland OH)

Dr. Werthman (LA - Eric and Kevin Hauber's guy)

Dr. Marks (Tucson, AZ - a terrific guy - I had a phone consult with him)

Dr. Michael Witt (Atlanta, GA)

Dr. Pienkos (New Mexico, I believe)

 

I and many others I have spoken with have literally had their lives restored by these men.

 

I know therre are others in Boston and NYC but the names don't come to mind, but I'm sure others will chime in.  Kevin's website also lists a few.

 

Epi removal is a coin toss and should only be tried as a last resort if the much simpler, much less risky reversal doesn't work, in my non-medical but experienced opinion.

 

 

 

 


----- Original Message -----
From: "neworderfan4" <neworderfan4@...>
To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:37:09 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [VasectomyPain] What to do next?

 

I have another appointment today. I had a second opinion and that doctor said that 7-8 weeks isn't bad but when it gets to 12 weeks and the pain is still there then he would be worried.

My surgeon is thinking about going back in and taking more of the vas out and possibly taking the epididymous out.

Has anyone heard of this?

Can it get worse if surgery is one of the options?

What would you guys do?


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (16)
#2446 From: "divemastermac108" <divemastermac@...>
Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:07 pm
Subject: Re: My Wife Hates Me 		divemasterma...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
After 12 years of my wife watching me suffer, she was instrumental and extremely
supportive in me having it REVERSED. She helped me deal with the insurance
company and doctors offices, etc.
She was almost crying for me when I had my numerous bouts with PVP. When
somebody loves you they shouldn't want you to risk a surgery that could leave
you with chronic pain for the rest of your life - or 12 years in my case.
It's already feeling SO much better and it's only been 12 days since the
reversal.
I know 6 guys that have had vasectomies. Three of them have had or continue to
have problems with pain in their testicle(s). 50%!!
I originally did it to be "good husband".
In hindsight, and knowing what we know now, my wife even regrets that I had it
done. And 12 years ago we didn't get any warnings from the doctor. AND the
internet was not what it now - a huge, valuable resource.
You're doing the right thing.
The more she reads, the more she'll understand.
Hang in there.
~Scott Mac



--- In VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com, "bstnguy@..." <bstnguy@...> wrote:
>
> I love the "inconvenient truth" thing as well as  "Acceptance through
deception".  Which I think should be tha AUA's motto in regards to the
procedure.
>
> Scott I totally agree with you in regards to groups promoting the procedure. 
The difficult part is confronting them without sounding like a moonbat and when
you become one of the victims, you have no choice but to go to a Urologist.  I
went from never having a single Urological issue to two surgeries and in excess
of 20 different appointments.  I do not know how many doctors vacationed on my
testicles dime but I could not join them because of the financial loss I
suffered from the snip.
>
>
>
> --- In VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com, SCOTT HOLTER <scottholter@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > In the end, all of PVP sufferers are "inconvenient truths" for a variety of
interest groups, including:
> >
> >
> >
> > 1.  Those favoring population control
> >
> > 2.  Feminist groups that promote vasectomy as a man's responsibility
> >
> > 3.  Vasectomist urologists that earn a small fortune from doing 4-5
vasectomies every Friday - these are the real villains because they hide and
deny the proven facts that vasectomy is no where near as consequence-free as
they claim (no conflict of interest there?)
> >
> >
> >
> > Sure, those of us that drew the short straw are anti-vasectomy or, at best,
pro-choice with better information, truth, and informed consent.  But whose
expierence should be trusted....those wearing the rose-colored glasses or those
that have seen all sides (us)?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "JPhillipin" <jphillipin@>
> > To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 2:21:55 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> > Subject: [VasectomyPain] Re: My Wife Hates Me
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Curtis,
> > I guess its my turn to chime in on this one...I am 3 + yrs removed from my
vasectomy, and I am still having serious side effects. Mine seem to come and go.
The symptoms range from flu like symptoms, to dull aching of the scrotum, to
terrible back pains. I too am a "holistic" kinda guy. I didn't want my wife on
birth control pills forever, and after having surprise twins, I went under the
knife as my "duty". Ironically, during my wife's labor, she requested the doc to
have her tubes tied..he would not do it because "she was too young, and under
duress". Also ironically after that, he made the recommendation for my urologist
to do the vasectomy. I really wish I could do it all over again.
> > Your wife sounds like my wife...she thinks I found this strange little group
because we are the "misfits". While she says she understands the pains, with 2
kids and full time jobs, we simply dont have time for them. If I didnt have such
a crazy lifestyle, I would have had a reversal a month after the vasectomy
because of the agony I was in at that time. Today its tolerable, but I have to
restrict my sex life. My wife says she doesnt care, but I DO! My decision has
caused my wife and I great stress and a handful of blowout (get it, blowout?)
fights. In retrospect, I would have rather fought with her while not in pain.
You are not in pain and you are whole, imagine fighting with your wife while you
are in agonizing pains...try to enjoy what you have now! I realize we may be the
1% or 5% or 30%, any way you look at it, its still a risk. If you have ANY
issues with the procedure at all, you should not do it. Good luck with your
decision.....
> > Joe
> >
> > --- In VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com , "curtisa00" <curtisa00@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Gentlemen,
> > > I'm 33, my wife is 34. We really don't want any more children and are both
very holitic, natural health orientated so we are both down on birth control
pills.
> > >
> > > About a year and a half ago I agreed to go get a vasectomy as that was the
agreed upon thing when we got married. Well, the night before the procedure I
started getting a little curious about what I was getting myself into. So I got
online. WOW is all I can say.
> > >
> > > In fact, the doctor who I set the appointment up with never even had a
consultation session. I just set up a time to get it done and they were going to
do it.
> > >
> > > Anyways...I talk about it with my wife and the results weren't good. She
thought I was being a baby and 'owed' her this. It was the 'right' thing to do.
> > >
> > > For the last year and a half we've been using condoms, withdrawl just
plain rolling the dice. Granted - it isn't smart and as she is getting older she
is really concerned about getting pregnant. Which I totally understand (I am
too).
> > >
> > > The pressure at this point to undergo a vasectomy is extremely high. Last
night it reached a crescendo as we got in a big fight about it.
> > >
> > > Everything inside me is screaming not to do it. I understand that the
chances of long term side effects is low (apx. 10%-20%) but - with that part of
my body I just don't want to take the chance. It doesn't seem worth it to me.
> > >
> > > But my wife feels betrayed by my change of heart. I can understand that
she feels that way but I'm really not making any headway with her. I feel like,
in a way, she resents me.
> > >
> > > I've tried to explain that I'm supportive of her decisions not to use
hormonal methods or ligation or Essure. But, when it comes to the topic of
vasectomy her eyes literally rage with hate against me.
> > >
> > > As I'm sure you can understand, this is putting a huge weight and burden
on our marriage. I'm a health care professional (pharmacist) and understand
immunology, anatomy and other subjects well. I'm ridiculed by family who have
found out about my decision.
> > >
> > > I'm a strong person buy I feel backed into a corner in all directions - so
I joined this group because I find your stories scary - but also something that
I can relate to.
> > >
> > > If anybody has any advice or guidance I would really appreciate hearing
it. I love my wife dearly but if she were to get pregnant I think she would
resent me.
> > >
> > > If I were to get a vasectomy and have the kinds of problems explained here
- I would resent her. It seems like a lose, lose proposition.
> > >
> > > I've written Dr. Ellis before and he was great and supported me. I've told
my wife about these sorts of groups and the men who have problems but she's not
interested.
> > >
> > > What would you do? Your feedback is really appreciated
> > >
> > > Best-
> > >
> >
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (31)
#2445 From: mikeharris122@...
Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:00 pm
Subject: Re: Re: What to do next? 		opn2itsd
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (16)
#2444 From: Eric Hokenson <hokendog@...>
Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:44 pm
Subject: Re: Re: What to do next? 		hokendog
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Can further surgery make things worse?  I think the answer to that is YES.  None of us can say for sure (including the guy who would actually be doing the surgery), but there is a definite possiblity things can be worse.
 
I was just like you.  The first several months I was in constant & excruciating pain.  I had doctors talk about taking out my epi and even orchiectomy.  I didn't want to do it - it just seemed like a bad idea.  If your problem is neurological in nature removing the epi would not help anyway!  BTW, I didn't have the reversal until 1 1/2 years after the vasectomy - a little too long, but that actually didn't help me anyway.
 
I would say at this point see if a doctor (preferably a pain management doc) can administer a illioinguinal nerve block.  This may or may not provide relief, but it is just an injection - nothing too serious. 
 
Before you do any surgeries, I would contact Dr. Parekattil at Univ of Florida or another uro that specializes in treating PVP patients.  DO NOT submit to surgeries by just some garden variety urologist - these guys are literally just guessing.  I don't think they have really done the research on how some guys get PVP and others do not, and they certainly don't know if removing more vas or more epi will help or not.  If they do claim to have that information - we would love to see it! 
 
Take care bro. 
 
-Eric

--- On Wed, 12/23/09, neworderfan4 <neworderfan4@...> wrote:

From: neworderfan4 <neworderfan4@...>
Subject: [VasectomyPain] Re: What to do next?
To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 10:18 AM

I know surgery got me into this mess in the first place, but having another one would make it that much worse? I have pain radiating into my abdomen now and it is getting regoddamndiculous. I want to resume my normal activities. Surgery is not the option right now? How long would you wait?

--- In VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com, mike harris <mikeharris122@...> wrote:
>
> DON'T DO IT!!!! Right now the last thing you should do is another 
> surgery. I know how hard it is to hang on but your best best right now 
> is to do nothing but wait. get some movies, get on the couch and 
> WAIT!!!!3 months out, still in pain, start examining other surgery 
> options. Removing the Epi is an old school urologist thing that 
> doesn't work nearly as much as they want it to and the after effects 
> can be awful! Give your body a chance to heal. Be patient. I know it 
> sucks but you can make it worse right now
> On Dec 23, 2009, at 9:37 AM, neworderfan4 wrote:
>
> > I have another appointment today. I had a second opinion and that 
> > doctor said that 7-8 weeks isn't bad but when it gets to 12 weeks 
> > and the pain is still there then he would be worried.
> >
> > My surgeon is thinking about going back in and taking more of the 
> > vas out and possibly taking the epididymous out..
> >
> > Has anyone heard of this?
> >
> > Can it get worse if surgery is one of the options?
> >
> > What would you guys do?
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (16)
#2443 From: michael lewis <bolloxnz@...>
Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:53 pm
Subject: Re: Re: What to do next? 		bolloxnz
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi I and many others here on this forum have been down this road ourselves, firstly you must give it 3 months to see if things are going to come right,then and only then start to look at other options.
for me I was made to wait five long years due to a dr withholding my notes and no-one would treat me without them, having said that yo will find that there is very little knowledge on how to fix PVP amongst urologists (bizarre hey) but for me the answr was reveral as there were just too many side effects for me and I could no longer live with the type of pain that I was in.
I have never heard of one man who has had his epididymi removed that has been free from pain afterwards there theory behind this is to remove the telephone wire that is transmitting the pain signals from the testicles, they will find another way to get through and this is not fixing the problem, just trying to hide it.
For me I looked at all of these options and the best chance to me was reversal as it puts things back how they should be and even then it takes time to heal.
I am now 1 yr post reversal and have only really being feeling the benefits of it recently.
if you go for reversal you must choose your surgeon very carefully and this is a very intricate procedure, if you are in the usa Dr Ellis will be able to advise of a good one there and I can in Australasia.
during the next few weeks that you are going to have to take it easy use plenty of ice packs and if that does not work (as it didnt for me) try soaking in a warm bath.
there is really nothing you can do until you reach the three month point.
we are all aware just how bad this can be and how frustratiing it is but be patient and dal with it as it happens, you have a far better chance of recovery than you have of needing a reversal so just hang in there shoudl the pain not go away after the three months then you are in the right place here to get all the advice you will need.
Kindest regards
Mike
P.s keep us posted     

--- On Thu, 24/12/09, neworderfan4 <neworderfan4@...> wrote:

From: neworderfan4 <neworderfan4@...>
Subject: [VasectomyPain] Re: What to do next?
To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
Received: Thursday, 24 December, 2009, 7:18 AM

 
I know surgery got me into this mess in the first place, but having another one would make it that much worse? I have pain radiating into my abdomen now and it is getting regoddamndiculous. I want to resume my normal activities. Surgery is not the option right now? How long would you wait?

--- In VasectomyPain@ yahoogroups. com, mike harris <mikeharris122@ ...> wrote:
>
> DON'T DO IT!!!! Right now the last thing you should do is another
> surgery. I know how hard it is to hang on but your best best right now
> is to do nothing but wait. get some movies, get on the couch and
> WAIT!!!!3 months out, still in pain, start examining other surgery
> options. Removing the Epi is an old school urologist thing that
> doesn't work nearly as much as they want it to and the after effects
> can be awful! Give your body a chance to heal. Be patient. I know it
> sucks but you can make it worse right now
> On Dec 23, 2009, at 9:37 AM, neworderfan4 wrote:
>
> > I have another appointment today. I had a second opinion and that
> > doctor said that 7-8 weeks isn't bad but when it gets to 12 weeks
> > and the pain is still there then he would be worried.
> >
> > My surgeon is thinking about going back in and taking more of the
> > vas out and possibly taking the epididymous out.
> >
> > Has anyone heard of this?
> >
> > Can it get worse if surgery is one of the options?
> >
> > What would you guys do?
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>


Reading this email at work? Make a change with Yahoo!Xtra Jobs

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (16)
#2442 From: mikeharris122@...
Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:48 pm
Subject: Re: Re: What to do next? 		opn2itsd
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
Start at the three month mark, that seems to be an agreed on mark. I know its
hard, be strong.

Lemme paint a picture:
3 months in, desperate, came close to a bilateral epi, which, as it turns out,
would have done nothing for my pain, and put both of my nuts at risk for falling
off, for the rest of my life. So, I would have still been in pain, and even
further away from where I was before (bikes work sex). Is that where u wanna be?
(Sorry)
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "neworderfan4" <neworderfan4@...>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 18:18:25
To: <VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [VasectomyPain] Re: What to do next?

I know surgery got me into this mess in the first place, but having another one
would make it that much worse? I have pain radiating into my abdomen now and it
is getting regoddamndiculous. I want to resume my normal activities. Surgery is
not the option right now? How long would you wait?

--- In VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com, mike harris <mikeharris122@...> wrote:
>
> DON'T DO IT!!!! Right now the last thing you should do is another
> surgery. I know how hard it is to hang on but your best best right now
> is to do nothing but wait. get some movies, get on the couch and
> WAIT!!!!3 months out, still in pain, start examining other surgery
> options. Removing the Epi is an old school urologist thing that
> doesn't work nearly as much as they want it to and the after effects
> can be awful! Give your body a chance to heal. Be patient. I know it
> sucks but you can make it worse right now
> On Dec 23, 2009, at 9:37 AM, neworderfan4 wrote:
>
> > I have another appointment today. I had a second opinion and that
> > doctor said that 7-8 weeks isn't bad but when it gets to 12 weeks
> > and the pain is still there then he would be worried.
> >
> > My surgeon is thinking about going back in and taking more of the
> > vas out and possibly taking the epididymous out.
> >
> > Has anyone heard of this?
> >
> > Can it get worse if surgery is one of the options?
> >
> > What would you guys do?
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (16)
#2441 From: "neworderfan4" <neworderfan4@...>
Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:18 pm
Subject: Re: What to do next? 		neworderfan4
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
I know surgery got me into this mess in the first place, but having another one
would make it that much worse? I have pain radiating into my abdomen now and it
is getting regoddamndiculous. I want to resume my normal activities. Surgery is
not the option right now? How long would you wait?

--- In VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com, mike harris <mikeharris122@...> wrote:
>
> DON'T DO IT!!!! Right now the last thing you should do is another
> surgery. I know how hard it is to hang on but your best best right now
> is to do nothing but wait. get some movies, get on the couch and
> WAIT!!!!3 months out, still in pain, start examining other surgery
> options. Removing the Epi is an old school urologist thing that
> doesn't work nearly as much as they want it to and the after effects
> can be awful! Give your body a chance to heal. Be patient. I know it
> sucks but you can make it worse right now
> On Dec 23, 2009, at 9:37 AM, neworderfan4 wrote:
>
> > I have another appointment today. I had a second opinion and that
> > doctor said that 7-8 weeks isn't bad but when it gets to 12 weeks
> > and the pain is still there then he would be worried.
> >
> > My surgeon is thinking about going back in and taking more of the
> > vas out and possibly taking the epididymous out.
> >
> > Has anyone heard of this?
> >
> > Can it get worse if surgery is one of the options?
> >
> > What would you guys do?
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (16)
#2440 From: mike harris <mikeharris122@...>
Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:07 pm
Subject: Re: What to do next? 		opn2itsd
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
DON'T DO IT!!!! Right now the last thing you should do is another
surgery. I know how hard it is to hang on but your best best right now
is to do nothing but wait. get some movies, get on the couch and
WAIT!!!!3 months out, still in pain, start examining other surgery
options. Removing the Epi is an old school urologist thing that
doesn't work nearly as much as they want it to and the after effects
can be awful! Give your body a chance to heal. Be patient. I know it
sucks but you can make it worse right now
On Dec 23, 2009, at 9:37 AM, neworderfan4 wrote:

> I have another appointment today. I had a second opinion and that
> doctor said that 7-8 weeks isn't bad but when it gets to 12 weeks
> and the pain is still there then he would be worried.
>
> My surgeon is thinking about going back in and taking more of the
> vas out and possibly taking the epididymous out.
>
> Has anyone heard of this?
>
> Can it get worse if surgery is one of the options?
>
> What would you guys do?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (16)
#2439 From: "neworderfan4" <neworderfan4@...>
Date: Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:37 pm
Subject: What to do next? 		neworderfan4
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
I have another appointment today. I had a second opinion and that doctor said
that 7-8 weeks isn't bad but when it gets to 12 weeks and the pain is still
there then he would be worried.

My surgeon is thinking about going back in and taking more of the vas out and
possibly taking the epididymous out.

Has anyone heard of this?

Can it get worse if surgery is one of the options?

What would you guys do?

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (16)
#2438 From: "Anthony Ellis, M.D." <thetaorunner@...>
Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:49 pm
Subject: Re: Insurance concerns 		thetaorunner
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
No. No one believes in the diagnosis anyway. If I sought treatment, I would try to focus on the symptoms and use words like pain in the testicles or pain in the epididymides, or groin pain of unknown cause. As far as Blue Cross records are concerned, I had a "repair of the ejaculatory duct", not a  reversal for PVPS.

I'll have to pay out of pocket for any cutting edge treatments anyway, just like I did for the reversal.



--- On Mon, 12/21/09, bstnguy@... <bstnguy@...> wrote:

From: bstnguy@... <bstnguy@...>
Subject: [VasectomyPain] Insurance concerns
To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, December 21, 2009, 6:35 PM

 

Hey Doc,

Are you worried that any potential new insurer might deny you treatment because your pain is a "pre-existing condition" ?


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (2)
#2437 From: "bstnguy@..." <bstnguy@...>
Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:35 pm
Subject: Insurance concerns 		bstnguy...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
Hey Doc,

        Are you worried that any potential new insurer might deny you treatment
because your pain is a "pre-existing condition" ?

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (2)
#2436 From: "bstnguy@..." <bstnguy@...>
Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:33 pm
Subject: Re: My Wife Hates Me 		bstnguy...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
I love the "inconvenient truth" thing as well as  "Acceptance through
deception".  Which I think should be tha AUA's motto in regards to the
procedure.

Scott I totally agree with you in regards to groups promoting the procedure. 
The difficult part is confronting them without sounding like a moonbat and when
you become one of the victims, you have no choice but to go to a Urologist.  I
went from never having a single Urological issue to two surgeries and in excess
of 20 different appointments.  I do not know how many doctors vacationed on my
testicles dime but I could not join them because of the financial loss I
suffered from the snip.



--- In VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com, SCOTT HOLTER <scottholter@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> In the end, all of PVP sufferers are "inconvenient truths" for a variety of
interest groups, including:
>
>
>
> 1.  Those favoring population control
>
> 2.  Feminist groups that promote vasectomy as a man's responsibility
>
> 3.  Vasectomist urologists that earn a small fortune from doing 4-5
vasectomies every Friday - these are the real villains because they hide and
deny the proven facts that vasectomy is no where near as consequence-free as
they claim (no conflict of interest there?)
>
>
>
> Sure, those of us that drew the short straw are anti-vasectomy or, at best,
pro-choice with better information, truth, and informed consent.  But whose
expierence should be trusted....those wearing the rose-colored glasses or those
that have seen all sides (us)?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "JPhillipin" <jphillipin@...>
> To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 2:21:55 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: [VasectomyPain] Re: My Wife Hates Me
>
>  
>
>
>
>
> Hi Curtis,
> I guess its my turn to chime in on this one...I am 3 + yrs removed from my
vasectomy, and I am still having serious side effects. Mine seem to come and go.
The symptoms range from flu like symptoms, to dull aching of the scrotum, to
terrible back pains. I too am a "holistic" kinda guy. I didn't want my wife on
birth control pills forever, and after having surprise twins, I went under the
knife as my "duty". Ironically, during my wife's labor, she requested the doc to
have her tubes tied..he would not do it because "she was too young, and under
duress". Also ironically after that, he made the recommendation for my urologist
to do the vasectomy. I really wish I could do it all over again.
> Your wife sounds like my wife...she thinks I found this strange little group
because we are the "misfits". While she says she understands the pains, with 2
kids and full time jobs, we simply dont have time for them. If I didnt have such
a crazy lifestyle, I would have had a reversal a month after the vasectomy
because of the agony I was in at that time. Today its tolerable, but I have to
restrict my sex life. My wife says she doesnt care, but I DO! My decision has
caused my wife and I great stress and a handful of blowout (get it, blowout?)
fights. In retrospect, I would have rather fought with her while not in pain.
You are not in pain and you are whole, imagine fighting with your wife while you
are in agonizing pains...try to enjoy what you have now! I realize we may be the
1% or 5% or 30%, any way you look at it, its still a risk. If you have ANY
issues with the procedure at all, you should not do it. Good luck with your
decision.....
> Joe
>
> --- In VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com , "curtisa00" <curtisa00@> wrote:
> >
> > Gentlemen,
> > I'm 33, my wife is 34. We really don't want any more children and are both
very holitic, natural health orientated so we are both down on birth control
pills.
> >
> > About a year and a half ago I agreed to go get a vasectomy as that was the
agreed upon thing when we got married. Well, the night before the procedure I
started getting a little curious about what I was getting myself into. So I got
online. WOW is all I can say.
> >
> > In fact, the doctor who I set the appointment up with never even had a
consultation session. I just set up a time to get it done and they were going to
do it.
> >
> > Anyways...I talk about it with my wife and the results weren't good. She
thought I was being a baby and 'owed' her this. It was the 'right' thing to do.
> >
> > For the last year and a half we've been using condoms, withdrawl just plain
rolling the dice. Granted - it isn't smart and as she is getting older she is
really concerned about getting pregnant. Which I totally understand (I am too).
> >
> > The pressure at this point to undergo a vasectomy is extremely high. Last
night it reached a crescendo as we got in a big fight about it.
> >
> > Everything inside me is screaming not to do it. I understand that the
chances of long term side effects is low (apx. 10%-20%) but - with that part of
my body I just don't want to take the chance. It doesn't seem worth it to me.
> >
> > But my wife feels betrayed by my change of heart. I can understand that she
feels that way but I'm really not making any headway with her. I feel like, in a
way, she resents me.
> >
> > I've tried to explain that I'm supportive of her decisions not to use
hormonal methods or ligation or Essure. But, when it comes to the topic of
vasectomy her eyes literally rage with hate against me.
> >
> > As I'm sure you can understand, this is putting a huge weight and burden on
our marriage. I'm a health care professional (pharmacist) and understand
immunology, anatomy and other subjects well. I'm ridiculed by family who have
found out about my decision.
> >
> > I'm a strong person buy I feel backed into a corner in all directions - so I
joined this group because I find your stories scary - but also something that I
can relate to.
> >
> > If anybody has any advice or guidance I would really appreciate hearing it.
I love my wife dearly but if she were to get pregnant I think she would resent
me.
> >
> > If I were to get a vasectomy and have the kinds of problems explained here -
I would resent her. It seems like a lose, lose proposition.
> >
> > I've written Dr. Ellis before and he was great and supported me. I've told
my wife about these sorts of groups and the men who have problems but she's not
interested.
> >
> > What would you do? Your feedback is really appreciated
> >
> > Best-
> >
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (31)
#2435 From: SCOTT HOLTER <scottholter@...>
Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:30 pm
Subject: Re: Re: My Wife Hates Me 		ridesaklein
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 

In the end, all of PVP sufferers are "inconvenient truths" for a variety of interest groups, including:

 

1.  Those favoring population control

2.  Feminist groups that promote vasectomy as a man's responsibility

3.  Vasectomist urologists that earn a small fortune from doing 4-5 vasectomies every Friday - these are the real villains because they hide and deny the proven facts that vasectomy is no where near as consequence-free as they claim (no conflict of interest there?)

 

Sure, those of us that drew the short straw are anti-vasectomy or, at best, pro-choice with better information, truth, and informed consent.  But whose expierence should be trusted....those wearing the rose-colored glasses or those that have seen all sides (us)?

 

 


----- Original Message -----
From: "JPhillipin" <jphillipin@...>
To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 2:21:55 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [VasectomyPain] Re: My Wife Hates Me

 

Hi Curtis,
I guess its my turn to chime in on this one...I am 3 + yrs removed from my vasectomy, and I am still having serious side effects. Mine seem to come and go. The symptoms range from flu like symptoms, to dull aching of the scrotum, to terrible back pains. I too am a "holistic" kinda guy. I didn't want my wife on birth control pills forever, and after having surprise twins, I went under the knife as my "duty". Ironically, during my wife's labor, she requested the doc to have her tubes tied..he would not do it because "she was too young, and under duress". Also ironically after that, he made the recommendation for my urologist to do the vasectomy. I really wish I could do it all over again.
Your wife sounds like my wife...she thinks I found this strange little group because we are the "misfits". While she says she understands the pains, with 2 kids and full time jobs, we simply dont have time for them. If I didnt have such a crazy lifestyle, I would have had a reversal a month after the vasectomy because of the agony I was in at that time. Today its tolerable, but I have to restrict my sex life. My wife says she doesnt care, but I DO! My decision has caused my wife and I great stress and a handful of blowout (get it, blowout?) fights. In retrospect, I would have rather fought with her while not in pain. You are not in pain and you are whole, imagine fighting with your wife while you are in agonizing pains...try to enjoy what you have now! I realize we may be the 1% or 5% or 30%, any way you look at it, its still a risk. If you have ANY issues with the procedure at all, you should not do it. Good luck with your decision.....
Joe

--- In VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com, "curtisa00" <curtisa00@...> wrote:
>
> Gentlemen,
> I'm 33, my wife is 34. We really don't want any more children and are both very holitic, natural health orientated so we are both down on birth control pills.
>
> About a year and a half ago I agreed to go get a vasectomy as that was the agreed upon thing when we got married. Well, the night before the procedure I started getting a little curious about what I was getting myself into. So I got online. WOW is all I can say.
>
> In fact, the doctor who I set the appointment up with never even had a consultation session. I just set up a time to get it done and they were going to do it.
>
> Anyways...I talk about it with my wife and the results weren't good. She thought I was being a baby and 'owed' her this. It was the 'right' thing to do.
>
> For the last year and a half we've been using condoms, withdrawl just plain rolling the dice. Granted - it isn't smart and as she is getting older she is really concerned about getting pregnant. Which I totally understand (I am too).
>
> The pressure at this point to undergo a vasectomy is extremely high. Last night it reached a crescendo as we got in a big fight about it.
>
> Everything inside me is screaming not to do it. I understand that the chances of long term side effects is low (apx. 10%-20%) but - with that part of my body I just don't want to take the chance. It doesn't seem worth it to me.
>
> But my wife feels betrayed by my change of heart. I can understand that she feels that way but I'm really not making any headway with her. I feel like, in a way, she resents me.
>
> I've tried to explain that I'm supportive of her decisions not to use hormonal methods or ligation or Essure. But, when it comes to the topic of vasectomy her eyes literally rage with hate against me.
>
> As I'm sure you can understand, this is putting a huge weight and burden on our marriage. I'm a health care professional (pharmacist) and understand immunology, anatomy and other subjects well. I'm ridiculed by family who have found out about my decision.
>
> I'm a strong person buy I feel backed into a corner in all directions - so I joined this group because I find your stories scary - but also something that I can relate to.
>
> If anybody has any advice or guidance I would really appreciate hearing it. I love my wife dearly but if she were to get pregnant I think she would resent me.
>
> If I were to get a vasectomy and have the kinds of problems explained here - I would resent her. It seems like a lose, lose proposition.
>
> I've written Dr. Ellis before and he was great and supported me. I've told my wife about these sorts of groups and the men who have problems but she's not interested.
>
> What would you do? Your feedback is really appreciated
>
> Best-
>


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (31)
#2434 From: "JPhillipin" <jphillipin@...>
Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:21 pm
Subject: Re: My Wife Hates Me 		JPhillipin
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
Hi Curtis,
I guess its my turn to chime in on this one...I am 3 + yrs removed from my
vasectomy, and I am still having serious side effects.  Mine seem to come and
go. The symptoms range from flu like symptoms, to dull aching of the scrotum, to
terrible back pains.  I too am a "holistic" kinda guy.  I didn't want my wife on
birth control pills forever, and after having surprise twins, I went under the
knife as my "duty".  Ironically, during my wife's labor, she requested the doc
to have her tubes tied..he would not do it because "she was too young, and under
duress".  Also ironically after that, he made the recommendation for my
urologist to do the vasectomy.  I really wish I could do it all over again.
Your wife sounds like my wife...she thinks I found this strange little group
because we are the "misfits".  While she says she understands the pains, with 2
kids and full time jobs, we simply dont have time for them.  If I didnt have
such a crazy lifestyle, I would have had a reversal a month after the vasectomy
because of the agony I was in at that time.  Today its tolerable, but I have to
restrict my sex life.  My wife says she doesnt care, but I DO!  My decision has
caused my wife and I great stress and a handful of blowout (get it, blowout?)
fights.  In retrospect, I would have rather fought with her while not in pain. 
You are not in pain and you are whole, imagine fighting with your wife while you
are in agonizing pains...try to enjoy what you have now!   I realize we may be
the 1% or 5% or 30%, any way you look at it, its still a risk.  If you have ANY
issues with the procedure at all, you should not do it.  Good luck with your
decision.....
Joe

--- In VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com, "curtisa00" <curtisa00@...> wrote:
>
> Gentlemen,
> I'm 33, my wife is 34.  We really don't want any more children and are both
very holitic, natural health orientated so we are both down on birth control
pills.
>
> About a year and a half ago I agreed to go get a vasectomy as that was the
agreed upon thing when we got married.  Well, the night before the procedure I
started getting a little curious about what I was getting myself into.  So I got
online.  WOW is all I can say.
>
> In fact, the doctor who I set the appointment up with never even had a
consultation session.  I just set up a time to get it done and they were going
to do it.
>
> Anyways...I talk about it with my wife and the results weren't good.  She
thought I was being a baby and 'owed' her this.  It was the 'right' thing to do.
>
> For the last year and a half we've been using condoms, withdrawl just plain
rolling the dice.  Granted - it isn't smart and as she is getting older she is
really concerned about getting pregnant.  Which I totally understand (I am too).
>
> The pressure at this point to undergo a vasectomy is extremely high.  Last
night it reached a crescendo as we got in a big fight about it.
>
> Everything inside me is screaming not to do it.  I understand that the chances
of long term side effects is low (apx. 10%-20%) but - with that part of my body
I just don't want to take the chance.  It doesn't seem worth it to me.
>
> But my wife feels betrayed by my change of heart.  I can understand that she
feels that way but I'm really not making any headway with her.  I feel like, in
a way, she resents me.
>
> I've tried to explain that I'm supportive of her decisions not to use hormonal
methods or ligation or Essure.  But, when it comes to the topic of vasectomy her
eyes literally rage with hate against me.
>
> As I'm sure you can understand, this is putting a huge weight and burden on
our marriage.  I'm a health care professional (pharmacist) and understand
immunology, anatomy and other subjects well.  I'm ridiculed by family who have
found out about my decision.
>
> I'm a strong person buy I feel backed into a corner in all directions - so I
joined this group because I find your stories scary - but also something that I
can relate to.
>
> If anybody has any advice or guidance I would really appreciate hearing it.  I
love my wife dearly but if she were to get pregnant I think she would resent me.
>
> If I were to get a vasectomy and have the kinds of problems explained here - I
would resent her.  It seems like a lose, lose proposition.
>
> I've written Dr. Ellis before and he was great and supported me.  I've told my
wife about these sorts of groups and the men who have problems but she's not
interested.
>
> What would you do?  Your feedback is really appreciated
>
> Best-
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (31)
#2433 From: michael lewis <bolloxnz@...>
Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:10 pm
Subject: Re: an alarming finding 		bolloxnz
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
How bizarre is this two years ago I went back home to the u.k to see a dying uncle who had been daignosed with testicular cancer and it had gone into his lymph nodes so he was basically buggered and terminal he died two weeks after I visited him.
The other day I called to speak top my Aunt and wish her a merrry Christmas and during the conversation out came some info about he husband and she went on to say that he had developed testicular cancer but it had gone undetected as he had previously had a vasectomy many years prior and as a result had developed odd shaped testicals and thus did not recognise anything unusual until it was too late.
How wonderful is that, another thing that we are not warned about!
 
 
     


Email slow, clunky, unreliable? Switch to Yahoo!Xtra Mail, New Zealand's new email address.

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (4)
#2432 From: mike harris <mikeharris122@...>
Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:34 pm
Subject: Re: post vascectomy visual and physical ailments 		opn2itsd
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
and (real important) TAKE IT EASY!! It was suggested to me that one of the great failings of vasectomy is the belief that everything is good in three days. Three weeks is a more accurate expectation and that's if nothing goes wrong.
On Dec 20, 2009, at 5:40 PM, Anthony Ellis, M.D. wrote:



Hello opportunitysknockin (what an odd moniker for this board),

Most mild to moderate pain in the first two weeks postop is normal and manageable with Tylenol ES. Any severe pain or pain that worsens over time or pain that is not covered by over the counter pain meds is not "normal". 

The swellings are either inflammatory (resolves with time for most men), infectious (needs antibiotics to resolve), blood collections (hematomas, that usually resolve in three to six weeks), or sperm granulomas (auto-immune reactions to sperm leakage, although it seems a bit early for it to be that large). A man could get one or all of these.

You need to see the doctor, have an exam, take it easy, and hope for the best. If they are worried at all they will order a scrotal ultrasound.



--- On Sun, 12/20/09, opportunitysknockin <opportunitysknockin@...> wrote:

From: opportunitysknockin <opportunitysknockin@...>
Subject: [VasectomyPain] post vascectomy visual and physical ailments
To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 7:21 PM

I am 8 days past my day of the operation. I am not in sharp pain but a dull ache is still revolvong around my left side.There is a mass that seems to harden when cooled and soften as it gets warm. it is a about 5/8 the size of my testicle when worst and like I said gets smaller when cooled. My right side is at worst the size of pea. I get aches when I stand or walk for a 1 hour or so because of th pressure of the mass pressing down on my testy? is it normal to have this mass and how should I explain to med office to get the point across?
Thank you all for the support you give eachother and any you may give me!





Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (4)
#2431 From: "bstnguy@..." <bstnguy@...>
Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:17 pm
Subject: Re: My Wife Hates Me 		bstnguy...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
Curtis,

       Just so your wife does not think it is just one small bitter group of men
and their wives here on Yahoo.  I have attached the following from a group of
guys in Germany I have been corresponding with. Some of them like me not only
developed pain but lost a lot of feeling.

From
http://www.patienten-selbsthilfegruppen.de/forum/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=\
18&s=39f7595766063c3c8713fa579574d67fc9ad4ae9

Huge problems after vasectomy

   Also I have had in good faith in me to perform a vasectomy, because in our
family planning was completed and I had heard in the acquaintance of this
possibility. With the massive side effects I had not expected, because my
urologist assured me even before the operation: "Everything is as before, they
will not notice any change." During the Op really began to have problems.
Apparently, the anesthesia syringes have not worked properly and the thing
causing infernal pain. I did remember the feeling of everything. For weeks after
the surgery the pain was present. They were unertglich with time, so I called
several times to my urologist. First of all seats e.g. driving a car caused me
great problems. By the urologist, I was put off, "it takes time." The pain was
no less. In addition, I have been painfully aware of that changed quite a bit
like the orgasm of the lost much of its intensity. The pains were given to me
for a long time - alarmingly had doubled within a year my PSA level over. The
years before the surgery, he was always constant. The urologist was of the
opinion that would have nothing to do with the value yes, and would still be in
tolerance. Because of the pain I was referred to other doctors, it was made a
ct. My urologist said now if they were rays of the spine and pain for him that
was done then too. I then informed about the Refertilisierung (Reversal), so I
could go on any longer. The Refertilisierung (Reversal) was then also carried
out fairly quickly and the pain was gone. Allerding must be privately paid
Refertilisierung (Reversal). After the surgical scar had healed, I was
completely pain free. The whole thing went on for 3 years. I am so glad I was
able to undo it. Before a vasectomy, I can only warn most urgently. There are
plenty of other contraceptive methods. It is simply too dangerous and the side
effects can be enormous. I am glad to regain a decent quality of life, for the
three years after the vasectomy was really hell. One should very much consider
carefully whether the matter as a venture is worth.

Roger60

and

  Hello Victim,

I also have found out after the vasectomy, a significantly lower intensity of
feeling during orgasm than before this point, however, came to me in the face of
severe chronic pain, the scrotum, which occurred after the vasectomy and not
disappeared, rather in the background.

I then leave with me because of the pain to perform a Refertilisierung
(reversal), the same doctor as roger60 (chief of urology of a large hospital,
because of the quality of roger60 I went there). As to your question: The Orgy
(orgasmic) quality has changed for me back through the Refertilisierung
(reversal) no longer in the positive direction () and continues to be a lot
worse than before the vasectomy.

The pain: These are the Refertilisierung (reversal) has decreased, but by no
means disappeared.

and
http://www.vasectomy-information.com/wordpress/?p=172
http://www.revolutionhealth.com/forums/mens-health/bedroom/102817
http://www.malehealth.co.uk/userpage1.cfm?item_id=2391
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/features/article647478.ec\
e

   I must face the reality that although my pain may be subsiding I may never
experience sex the same way again.  All so I wouldn't have to wear a condom.

                                                Bernie


--- In VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com, Eric Hokenson <hokendog@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> 
> This is Susan...wife of Eric. I just wanted to speak on this topic from a
woman's point of view.
> 
> If I could go back and change one thing...it would be to not let my husband go
through this surgery. It was the worst decision either of us have ever made.
We made the decision together (sure I may have encouraged it). I don't think I
pushed the issue, but I wish that we had known all the risks involved before he
had it done. I really do not feel that the convenience of not having to use
condoms is worth possibly being in pain for the rest of your life. Maybe your
wife just needs to research this topic with you and discover that it is a real
problem and should not be taken lightly.
> 
> One should never feel pressured into doing any kind of an elective surgery.
You are the one that will have to live with the pain...so make sure any decision
that you come to is your choice. It would be nice if you and your wife could
sit down and talk about this without getting angry.
> 
> Take care.
> Susan
>
> --- On Sun, 12/20/09, curtisa00 <curtisa00@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: curtisa00 <curtisa00@...>
> Subject: [VasectomyPain] My Wife Hates Me
> To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 5:30 AM
>
>
> Gentlemen,
> I'm 33, my wife is 34. We really don't want any more children and are both
very holitic, natural health orientated so we are both down on birth control
pills.
>
> About a year and a half ago I agreed to go get a vasectomy as that was the
agreed upon thing when we got married. Well, the night before the procedure I
started getting a little curious about what I was getting myself into.. So I
got online. WOW is all I can say.
>
> In fact, the doctor who I set the appointment up with never even had a
consultation session. I just set up a time to get it done and they were going
to do it.
>
> Anyways...I talk about it with my wife and the results weren't good. She
thought I was being a baby and 'owed' her this. It was the 'right' thing to do.
>
> For the last year and a half we've been using condoms, withdrawl just plain
rolling the dice. Granted - it isn't smart and as she is getting older she is
really concerned about getting pregnant. Which I totally understand (I am too).
>
> The pressure at this point to undergo a vasectomy is extremely high. Last
night it reached a crescendo as we got in a big fight about it.
>
> Everything inside me is screaming not to do it. I understand that the chances
of long term side effects is low (apx. 10%-20%) but - with that part of my body
I just don't want to take the chance. It doesn't seem worth it to me.
>
> But my wife feels betrayed by my change of heart. I can understand that she
feels that way but I'm really not making any headway with her. I feel like, in
a way, she resents me.
>
> I've tried to explain that I'm supportive of her decisions not to use hormonal
methods or ligation or Essure. But, when it comes to the topic of vasectomy her
eyes literally rage with hate against me.
>
> As I'm sure you can understand, this is putting a huge weight and burden on
our marriage. I'm a health care professional (pharmacist) and understand
immunology, anatomy and other subjects well. I'm ridiculed by family who have
found out about my decision.
>
> I'm a strong person buy I feel backed into a corner in all directions - so I
joined this group because I find your stories scary - but also something that I
can relate to.
>
> If anybody has any advice or guidance I would really appreciate hearing it. I
love my wife dearly but if she were to get pregnant I think she would resent me.
>
> If I were to get a vasectomy and have the kinds of problems explained here - I
would resent her. It seems like a lose, lose proposition.
>
> I've written Dr. Ellis before and he was great and supported me. I've told my
wife about these sorts of groups and the men who have problems but she's not
interested.
>
> What would you do? Your feedback is really appreciated
>
> Best-
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (31)
#2430 From: Eric Hokenson <hokendog@...>
Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:45 am
Subject: Re: My Wife Hates Me 		hokendog
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hello,
 
This is Susan...wife of Eric.  I just wanted to speak on this topic from a woman's point of view. 
 
If I could go back and change one thing...it would be to not let my husband go through this surgery.  It was the worst decision either of us have ever made.  We made the decision together (sure I may have encouraged it).  I don't think I pushed the issue, but I wish that we had known all the risks involved before he had it done.  I really do not feel that the convenience of not having to use condoms is worth possibly being in pain for the rest of your life.  Maybe your wife just needs to research this topic with you and discover that it is a real problem and should not be taken lightly. 
 
One should never feel pressured into doing any kind of an elective surgery.  You are the one that will have to live with the pain...so make sure any decision that you come to is your choice.  It would be nice if you and your wife could sit down and talk about this without getting angry. 
 
Take care.
Susan

--- On Sun, 12/20/09, curtisa00 <curtisa00@...> wrote:

From: curtisa00 <curtisa00@...>
Subject: [VasectomyPain] My Wife Hates Me
To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 5:30 AM

Gentlemen,
I'm 33, my wife is 34.  We really don't want any more children and are both very holitic, natural health orientated so we are both down on birth control pills.

About a year and a half ago I agreed to go get a vasectomy as that was the agreed upon thing when we got married.  Well, the night before the procedure I started getting a little curious about what I was getting myself into.  So I got online.  WOW is all I can say.

In fact, the doctor who I set the appointment up with never even had a consultation session.  I just set up a time to get it done and they were going to do it.

Anyways...I talk about it with my wife and the results weren't good.  She thought I was being a baby and 'owed' her this.  It was the 'right' thing to do.

For the last year and a half we've been using condoms, withdrawl just plain rolling the dice.  Granted - it isn't smart and as she is getting older she is really concerned about getting pregnant.  Which I totally understand (I am too).

The pressure at this point to undergo a vasectomy is extremely high.  Last night it reached a crescendo as we got in a big fight about it.

Everything inside me is screaming not to do it.  I understand that the chances of long term side effects is low (apx. 10%-20%) but - with that part of my body I just don't want to take the chance.  It doesn't seem worth it to me.

But my wife feels betrayed by my change of heart.  I can understand that she feels that way but I'm really not making any headway with her.  I feel like, in a way, she resents me.

I've tried to explain that I'm supportive of her decisions not to use hormonal methods or ligation or Essure.  But, when it comes to the topic of vasectomy her eyes literally rage with hate against me.

As I'm sure you can understand, this is putting a huge weight and burden on our marriage.  I'm a health care professional (pharmacist) and understand immunology, anatomy and other subjects well.  I'm ridiculed by family who have found out about my decision.

I'm a strong person buy I feel backed into a corner in all directions - so I joined this group because I find your stories scary - but also something that I can relate to.

If anybody has any advice or guidance I would really appreciate hearing it.  I love my wife dearly but if she were to get pregnant I think she would resent me.

If I were to get a vasectomy and have the kinds of problems explained here - I would resent her.  It seems like a lose, lose proposition.

I've written Dr. Ellis before and he was great and supported me.  I've told my wife about these sorts of groups and the men who have problems but she's not interested.

What would you do?  Your feedback is really appreciated

Best-



------------------------------------

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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (31)
#2429 From: "Matt Edwards" <medwards74@...>
Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:04 am
Subject: FW: FW: My Wife Hates Me 		ice_and_ibup...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 

Here’s what my wife wrote about it:

 

From: Yvette Edwards [mailto:yme77@...]
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 2:42 PM
To: Matt Edwards
Subject: Re: FW: [VasectomyPain] My Wife Hates Me

 

Its a little hard for one person to say, I can't do this because it "might" turn out wrong, to another Is is almost completely disconnected.  Yes, there are side effects.  Yes, there could be some serious long term effects.  The problem here is that there are many who have had a vasectomy and it be a success.  I think what needs to be said here is that no (including vasectomy) birth control method is 100 percent.

 

I suggest that this man do a bit more research into this method.  She's worried about becoming pregnant, yet she is not of maternal age yet (35),  although the chance of becoming pregnant after a vasectomy is said to be small, it's only because most vasectomy pregnancies are not reported.

 

The fact is that most vasectomy pregnancies occur with in the first three years.  Three Years!  Many, do happen with in the first six months.  Now, when you get a vasectomy they talk about you waiting for the first three months.  They seem to forget to tell you that you need to continue to check your sperm each year if not each six months.

 

The simple fact that the reconnection is directly related to a granuloma and that granuloma's are extremely common, are reason enough to stick with the condom and not get a vasectomy.  It's a false hope of success in carefree sex.  Just as the body sometimes rejects a pill full of hormones, it also rejects methods such as vasectomies and tubal ligations.

 

So, 99% my ass!  More like, the average vasectomy has a 50 to 80% chance of not resulting in a pregnancy for up to six years later.  Want to take that chance?

 

-------Original Message-------

 

From: Matt Edwards

Date: 12/20/2009 2:19:56 PM

Subject: FW: [VasectomyPain] My Wife Hates Me

 

 

 

From: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com [mailto:VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of curtisa00
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 8:31 AM
To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [VasectomyPain] My Wife Hates Me

 

 

Gentlemen,
I'm 33, my wife is 34. We really don't want any more children and are both very holitic, natural health orientated so we are both down on birth control pills.

About a year and a half ago I agreed to go get a vasectomy as that was the agreed upon thing when we got married. Well, the night before the procedure I started getting a little curious about what I was getting myself into. So I got online. WOW is all I can say.

In fact, the doctor who I set the appointment up with never even had a consultation session. I just set up a time to get it done and they were going to do it.

Anyways...I talk about it with my wife and the results weren't good. She thought I was being a baby and 'owed' her this. It was the 'right' thing to do.

For the last year and a half we've been using condoms, withdrawl just plain rolling the dice. Granted - it isn't smart and as she is getting older she is really concerned about getting pregnant. Which I totally understand (I am too).

The pressure at this point to undergo a vasectomy is extremely high. Last night it reached a crescendo as we got in a big fight about it.

Everything inside me is screaming not to do it. I understand that the chances of long term side effects is low (apx. 10%-20%) but - with that part of my body I just don't want to take the chance. It doesn't seem worth it to me.

But my wife feels betrayed by my change of heart. I can understand that she feels that way but I'm really not making any headway with her. I feel like, in a way, she resents me.

I've tried to explain that I'm supportive of her decisions not to use hormonal methods or ligation or Essure. But, when it comes to the topic of vasectomy her eyes literally rage with hate against me.

As I'm sure you can understand, this is putting a huge weight and burden on our marriage. I'm a health care professional (pharmacist) and understand immunology, anatomy and other subjects well. I'm ridiculed by family who have found out about my decision.

I'm a strong person buy I feel backed into a corner in all directions - so I joined this group because I find your stories scary - but also something that I can relate to.

If anybody has any advice or guidance I would really appreciate hearing it. I love my wife dearly but if she were to get pregnant I think she would resent me.

If I were to get a vasectomy and have the kinds of problems explained here - I would resent her. It seems like a lose, lose proposition.

I've written Dr. Ellis before and he was great and supported me. I've told my wife about these sorts of groups and the men who have problems but she's not interested.

What would you do? Your feedback is really appreciated

Best-

 

 

 

 

FREE Animations for your email - by IncrediMail! Click Here!


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#2428 From: Eric Hokenson <hokendog@...>
Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:53 am
Subject: Re: My Wife Hates Me 		hokendog
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Curtis,
 
It's ultimately YOUR decision!  I think you and your wife should agree about birth control and/or permanent sterilization - but it's your body, and if you are unsure, don't do it.  My wife and I made the mutual decision to have the vasectomy.  Although the consequences have been disasterous for me, I cannot be mad at her for it.  If I felt pressured by my wife, that would cause a MAJOR strain on the relationship considering how it turned out.
 
So about the stupid vasectomy... worst decision ever.  The procedure was 10/10 on the pain scale, I have been in constant pain for 4 years, and I have spent thousands of dollars of my own money on worthless procedures, injections, medications, etc....  Oh and I had it reversed to try to eliminate the pain (didn't work), but guess what - I am back to using condoms again anyway!  
 
If you do go through with it, make it your decision.  And if you do, I pray you are the 99% with no problems, not the 1% of us poor bastards that have to live in costant pain and frustration.
 
Lastly, at least you know about the risks.  I was completely unaware that chronic pain was a possibility, the doctors I saw made no mention of it whatsoever.
 
Take care and Merry Christmas.
 
Eric 

--- On Sun, 12/20/09, curtisa00 <curtisa00@...> wrote:

From: curtisa00 <curtisa00@...>
Subject: [VasectomyPain] Re: My Wife Hates Me (repost due to typos)
To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 2:37 PM


You all bring up some valid points and some things that I didn't think to bring up.

Bernie - do not worry about offending me.  Your points and questions are valid.  I told her that I felt disrespected also.  Of course, the conversation was a little heated this morning.  Anyways, I'll continue to try to help her see my side.  And yes, I would say our marriage is fairly strong.  We certainly have our moments as most couples do.  But overall, we both work hard at it and want things to work.

We're both passionate - which can be good and bad.  We just found something we are both passionate about - but we're on the opposite ends of the spectrum.
--- In VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com, "bstnguy@..." <bstnguy@...> wrote:
>
> And when do you really know that you beat it.  Here is a guy in Japan that developed pain 17 years later
>
> Nippon Hinyokika Gakkai Zasshi. 1994 Oct;85(10):1567-70.
>
> [Bilateral spermatocele developed after vasectomy: a case report]
> [Article in Japanese]
>
> Mizoguchi H, Fukunaga Y, Kasagi Y, Ogata J.
>
> Department of Urology, Oita Medical University, Japan.
>
> A rare case of bilateral spermatocele developed 17 years after vasectomy was presented. A forty-seven year old man visited to our hospital with a chief complaint of swelling of bilateral intrascrotal contents. Sonographic findings demonstrated multilocular lesions of the bilateral intrascrotal contents. Operative procedure revealed bilateral cysts originating from the caput of the epididymis. Bilateral epididymectomy were performed. It was diagnosed as spermatocele because of demonstration of spermatozoa in the cystic fluid. We concluded that bilateral spermatocele has been induced by prolonged increased pressure of the intraepididymal duct following vasectomy 17 years ago.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
>
> --- In VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com, "bstnguy@" <bstnguy@> wrote:
> >
> > Dr. Ellis said
> >
> > "This is the life of a man with PVPS, always waiting, watching, wondering when the pain will come back or worsen. It consumes ones thoughts and can only be treated with distraction (hence all of my sport endeavors trying to prove to myself I am still a man and am OK)."
> >
> >
> > Amen
> >
> >     It is always in the back of my mind. I am always waiting for the pain to come back. If I had a not so bad day I would wonder when I was going to pay for it and how badly. I still instinctively cover my groin when my children run to me for a hug.  That bothers me a lot.
> >
> >                                                Bernie
> >
> > --- In VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com, michael lewis <bolloxnz@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Antony and Guys you know it may well be a good idea to have a section on vasetomy pain where our wives can add their 2 cents worth on hiw they felt about the outcomes we had and just how it affected their lives to, this would also put away any of the stupid theories that we are men who are just hell bent against vasectomy for no reason .
> > >  
> > > Just a thought
> > >
> > > --- On Mon, 21/12/09, Anthony Ellis, M.D. <thetaorunner@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Anthony Ellis, M.D. <thetaorunner@>
> > > Subject: Re: [VasectomyPain] Re: My Wife Hates Me (repost due to typos)
> > > To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
> > > Received: Monday, 21 December, 2009, 4:31 AM
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello Curtis,
> > >
> > > I spoke with my wife about this issue today. She is also a "holistic" person and would not get a tubal during her C-sections as she "does not believe in altering the body unless it is absolutely necessary".. So, she doesn't believe in elective surgery at all (nose jobs, breast augmentation, liposuction, tubal ligation, vasectomy, etc.) Thank goodness she expressed concerns over my choice to move forward with vasectomy. She worried about the risks and the chronic pain possibility. I chose poorly to avoid using condoms for ten years (she was 41 at the time of my vasectomy). It was the worst decision of my life.
> > >
> > > If she had forced me into having a vasectomy, I'm sorry to say, I may have ended up with too much anger and resentment to stay married. She thinks I blame her still, because she told me that "birth control is your responsibility now" and I felt this pushed me towards vasectomy (in reality, condoms were the best option, and she would have been OK with using them for a decade).
> > >
> > > I wrote an article called, "Is Vasectomy Really Safe?" and placed it on the web at www.Triond.com. You can see it here:
> > > http://healthmad. com/mens- health/is- vasectomy- really-safe/
> > > http://healthmad. com/mens- health/is- vasectomy- really-safe/
> > >
> > > Your wife should be willing to read it. If she won't look at the real risks and continues to push for vasectomy, one has to question her motive. The person who is going "under the knife" for elective surgery makes the final decision. Can you imagine if you were trying to force her to get a breast augmentation "because it would be good for me and everyone is doing it"? Condoms can be 90% effective if used properly, and this mirrors the percentage of men vasectomy "works for".
> > >
> > > If I could go back in time and walk out of that office, I would give all of my accumulated wealth and ten years of my longevity. This despite my fairly good outcome after reversal. PVPS is on my mind every day.. Last night I had to take Lyrica to treat a pain that came from coughing and sneezing last month. Now I fear coughing and sneezing. This new pain has no other treatment and may or may not resolve. This is the life of a man with PVPS, always waiting, watching, wondering when the pain will come back or worsen. It consumes ones thoughts and can only be treated with distraction (hence all of my sport endeavors trying to prove to myself I am still a man and am OK).
> > >
> > > Your wife has the right to suggest vasectomy. She has the right to be concerned about the failure rates of condoms. She DOES NOT have the right to insist you get the surgery. If she knew of the risks and believed them, insisting seems absurd. Have her read my articles on www.Triond.com. They are under the name "Brain Doctor". At present, they get about 5 hits each per day or about 1500 per year.
> > >
> > > I am contacted by about one man a week with PVPS. To a man, they say vasectomy was the worst decision they ever made, and most are not the same men they were prior to the vasectomy. Your wife is wrong. The friends or relatives that ridicule you are wrong. Urology as a field is wrong about vasectomy. It is a bad procedure with known risks that outweigh its "benefits".
> > >
> > > By the way, Scott, you are a better man than me. If my father-in-law treated my PVPS like you describe, I 'd tell him to shut his trap. If he brought it up in that way again, I'd have to tell him that would only tolerate being around him for the sake of the marriage and that his comments on that subject would have to stop or I'd tell him to Shove off (in more colorful language).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A. Ellis, M.D.
> > >
> > > TheTaoRunner@ yahoo.com
> > >
> > > www.RunningBrain. com
> > >  
> > > www.PainAfterVasect omy.ORG
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sun, 12/20/09, curtisa00 <curtisa00@yahoo. com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: curtisa00 <curtisa00@yahoo. com>
> > > Subject: [VasectomyPain] Re: My Wife Hates Me
> > > To: VasectomyPain@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 9:37 AM
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I think her biggest concern is that condoms aren't foolproof and - let's face it - not real spontaneous. Of course, I've told her that vasectomies aren't foolproof either - but that didn't meet with good results. Frankly, since this whole issue has popped up we really don't have sex all that often anyways.
> > >
> > > She's just at a bad point right now and doesn't want to see the other side of the fence or to even entertain the idea that this might be a bad decision for both of us.
> > >
> > > Hopefully, with time, she'll come around. But right now she's pretty angry and bitter.
> > >
> > > Thanks for your reponse.
> > > --- In VasectomyPain@ yahoogroups. com, "bstnguy@ " <bstnguy@ > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Curtis,
> > > >
> > > > If you felt forced into it and had a bad outcome like us do you think your marriage is strong enough to survive the resentment and anger that is bound to follow ? Conversly wouldn't she be angry at you if she felt you forced her into a situation that caused her misery (I am no longer ok with tubal ligation now either). In this case I am fortunate in that the vasectomy was my decision. My wife still feels badly about it as although after two more surgeries the pain is going away but I still have lost a significant amount of feeling however I do not have the added burden of resenting the woman I love because I wasn't forced to do it.
> > > >
> > > > 10-20 % is not small, it is still between 50,000 and 100,000 guys in the US alone (It is hard to get real numbers though as it seems Urologist find it an "inconvienent truth". The key to it's wide acceptance in my opinion is deception. Unfortunately I found out too late.
> > > >
> > > > Does your wife think that vasectomy is consistant with a holistic lifestyle ? I understand your concern with birth control pills but does she think that purposely cutting into a body system with the intent of making it malfunction is healthy ? If you are willing to use condoms, I don't understand the issue she has ? I am however concerned with her apparent disregard for your legitimate feelings and concerns. She should talk to some of our wives and kids and see how great their lives have been since the procedure.
> > > >
> > > > Good luck
> > > >
> > > > Bernie
> > > > --- In VasectomyPain@ yahoogroups. com, "curtisa00" <curtisa00@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Gentlemen,
> > > > > I'm 33, my wife is 34. We really don't want any more children and are both very holitic, natural health orientated so we are both down on birth control pills.
> > > > >
> > > > > About a year and a half ago I agreed to go get a vasectomy as that was the agreed upon thing when we got married. Well, the night before the procedure I started getting a little curious about what I was getting myself into. So I got online. WOW is all I can say.
> > > > >
> > > > > In fact, the doctor who I set the appointment up with never even had a consultation session. I just set up a time to get it done and they were going to do it..
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyways...I talk about it with my wife and the results weren't good. She thought I was being a baby and 'owed' her this. It was the 'right' thing to do.
> > > > >
> > > > > For the last year and a half we've been using condoms, withdrawl just plain rolling the dice. Granted - it isn't smart and as she is getting older she is really concerned about getting pregnant. Which I totally understand (I am too).
> > > > >
> > > > > The pressure at this point to undergo a vasectomy is extremely high. Last night it reached a crescendo as we got in a big fight about it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Everything inside me is screaming not to do it. I understand that the chances of long term side effects is low (apx. 10%-20%) but - with that part of my body I just don't want to take the chance. It doesn't seem worth it to me.
> > > > >
> > > > > But my wife feels betrayed by my change of heart. I can understand that she feels that way but I'm really not making any headway with her. I feel like, in a way, she resents me.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've tried to explain that I'm supportive of her decisions not to use hormonal methods or ligation or Essure. But, when it comes to the topic of vasectomy her eyes literally rage with hate against me.
> > > > >
> > > > > As I'm sure you can understand, this is putting a huge weight and burden on our marriage. I'm a health care professional (pharmacist) and understand immunology, anatomy and other subjects well. I'm ridiculed by family who have found out about my decision.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm a strong person buy I feel backed into a corner in all directions - so I joined this group because I find your stories scary - but also something that I can relate to.
> > > > >
> > > > > If anybody has any advice or guidance I would really appreciate hearing it. I love my wife dearly but if she were to get pregnant I think she would resent me.
> > > > >
> > > > > If I were to get a vasectomy and have the kinds of problems explained here - I would resent her. It seems like a lose, lose proposition.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've written Dr. Ellis before and he was great and supported me. I've told my wife about these sorts of groups and the men who have problems but she's not interested.
> > > > >
> > > > > What would you do? Your feedback is really appreciated
> > > > >
> > > > > Best-
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>




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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (31)
#2427 From: "Anthony Ellis, M.D." <thetaorunner@...>
Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:40 am
Subject: Re: post vascectomy visual and physical ailments 		thetaorunner
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hello opportunitysknockin (what an odd moniker for this board),

Most mild to moderate pain in the first two weeks postop is normal and manageable with Tylenol ES. Any severe pain or pain that worsens over time or pain that is not covered by over the counter pain meds is not "normal".

The swellings are either inflammatory (resolves with time for most men), infectious (needs antibiotics to resolve), blood collections (hematomas, that usually resolve in three to six weeks), or sperm granulomas (auto-immune reactions to sperm leakage, although it seems a bit early for it to be that large). A man could get one or all of these.

You need to see the doctor, have an exam, take it easy, and hope for the best. If they are worried at all they will order a scrotal ultrasound.



--- On Sun, 12/20/09, opportunitysknockin <opportunitysknockin@...> wrote:

From: opportunitysknockin <opportunitysknockin@...>
Subject: [VasectomyPain] post vascectomy visual and physical ailments
To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 7:21 PM

 

I am 8 days past my day of the operation. I am not in sharp pain but a dull ache is still revolvong around my left side.There is a mass that seems to harden when cooled and soften as it gets warm. it is a about 5/8 the size of my testicle when worst and like I said gets smaller when cooled. My right side is at worst the size of pea. I get aches when I stand or walk for a 1 hour or so because of th pressure of the mass pressing down on my testy? is it normal to have this mass and how should I explain to med office to get the point across?
Thank you all for the support you give eachother and any you may give me!


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (4)
#2426 From: Sean Escobar <seanescobar12@...>
Date: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:58 am
Subject: Re: Re: My Wife Hates Me (repost due to typos) 		seanescobar12
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
I suggest NOT to do it. You will regret it and will end up hating your wife for it. Imagine the worst pain you could have everyday for the rest of your life. I rather not sugar coat it, just don't do it.

~ Sean

--- On Sun, 12/20/09, Ryan McNeel <ryan_mcneel@...> wrote:

From: Ryan McNeel <ryan_mcneel@...>
Subject: Re: [VasectomyPain] Re: My Wife Hates Me (repost due to typos)
To: VasectomyPain@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 11:39 PM

 

I did not have enough time here at work to read all of your responses to know if I am missing something in my response or repeating anothers point. But I have the gist of what you are saying about you wife.
 
My two cents....
 
- As a medic who assisted on many Vasectomies, including helping a doc do his own with a mirror (another story). We used to do mass briefings for all the patients and their spouses considering getting a vasectomy.
-One thing that my doc would say is .... the odds are against you staying with this person and staying married to them are less than 40 percent. If they were to (God forbid) have a car accident or you decided not to be married. If and when you decide to get remarried, your new spouse may want children and be very important to you. Many men walked out before he finished his talk and decided it was not for them.
- Now that I decided to get a vasectomy, my marriage is in trouble currently because I run risk of losing employment and I cannot do the things I used to ,household chore wise and romantically.  
So it is possible that the stress you have now could in fact happen later if you make the decision.
 
That being said, none of the problems we are having may happen.
 
Bottom line its your body, not hers or anyone else on this board.
 
My advice is think of it as your body, not your marriage. 
TSgt Ryan McNeel
Bagram Afghanistan
 


--- On Sun, 12/20/09, bstnguy@ymail. com <bstnguy@ymail. com> wrote:

From: bstnguy@ymail. com <bstnguy@ymail. com>
Subject: [VasectomyPain] Re: My Wife Hates Me (repost due to typos)
To: VasectomyPain@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 1:36 PM

 
And when do you really know that you beat it. Here is a guy in Japan that developed pain 17 years later

Nippon Hinyokika Gakkai Zasshi. 1994 Oct;85(10):1567- 70.

[Bilateral spermatocele developed after vasectomy: a case report]
[Article in Japanese]

Mizoguchi H, Fukunaga Y, Kasagi Y, Ogata J.

Department of Urology, Oita Medical University, Japan.

A rare case of bilateral spermatocele developed 17 years after vasectomy was presented. A forty-seven year old man visited to our hospital with a chief complaint of swelling of bilateral intrascrotal contents.. Sonographic findings demonstrated multilocular lesions of the bilateral intrascrotal contents. Operative procedure revealed bilateral cysts originating from the caput of the epididymis. Bilateral epididymectomy were performed. It was diagnosed as spermatocele because of demonstration of spermatozoa in the cystic fluid. We concluded that bilateral spermatocele has been induced by prolonged increased pressure of the intraepididymal duct following vasectomy 17 years ago.
http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ sites/entrez

--- In VasectomyPain@ yahoogroups. com, "bstnguy@... " <bstnguy@... > wrote:
>
> Dr. Ellis said
>
> "This is the life of a man with PVPS, always waiting, watching, wondering when the pain will come back or worsen. It consumes ones thoughts and can only be treated with distraction (hence all of my sport endeavors trying to prove to myself I am still a man and am OK)."
>
>
> Amen
>
> It is always in the back of my mind. I am always waiting for the pain to come back. If I had a not so bad day I would wonder when I was going to pay for it and how badly. I still instinctively cover my groin when my children run to me for a hug. That bothers me a lot.
>
> Bernie
>
> --- In VasectomyPain@ yahoogroups. com, michael lewis <bolloxnz@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Antony and Guys you know it may well be a good idea to have a section on vasetomy pain where our wives can add their 2 cents worth on hiw they felt about the outcomes we had and just how it affected their lives to, this would also put away any of the stupid theories that we are men who are just hell bent against vasectomy for no reason .
> >  
> > Just a thought
> >
> > --- On Mon, 21/12/09, Anthony Ellis, M.D. <thetaorunner@ > wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Anthony Ellis, M.D. <thetaorunner@ >
> > Subject: Re: [VasectomyPain] Re: My Wife Hates Me (repost due to typos)
> > To: VasectomyPain@ yahoogroups. com
> > Received: Monday, 21 December, 2009, 4:31 AM
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello Curtis,
> >
> > I spoke with my wife about this issue today. She is also a "holistic" person and would not get a tubal during her C-sections as she "does not believe in altering the body unless it is absolutely necessary". So, she doesn't believe in elective surgery at all (nose jobs, breast augmentation, liposuction, tubal ligation, vasectomy, etc.) Thank goodness she expressed concerns over my choice to move forward with vasectomy. She worried about the risks and the chronic pain possibility. I chose poorly to avoid using condoms for ten years (she was 41 at the time of my vasectomy). It was the worst decision of my life.
> >
> > If she had forced me into having a vasectomy, I'm sorry to say, I may have ended up with too much anger and resentment to stay married. She thinks I blame her still, because she told me that "birth control is your responsibility now" and I felt this pushed me towards vasectomy (in reality, condoms were the best option, and she would have been OK with using them for a decade).
> >
> > I wrote an article called, "Is Vasectomy Really Safe?" and placed it on the web at www.Triond.com. You can see it here:
> > http://healthmad. com/mens- health/is- vasectomy- really-safe/
> > http://healthmad. com/mens- health/is- vasectomy- really-safe/
> >
> > Your wife should be willing to read it. If she won't look at the real risks and continues to push for vasectomy, one has to question her motive. The person who is going "under the knife" for elective surgery makes the final decision. Can you imagine if you were trying to force her to get a breast augmentation "because it would be good for me and everyone is doing it"? Condoms can be 90% effective if used properly, and this mirrors the percentage of men vasectomy "works for".
> >
> > If I could go back in time and walk out of that office, I would give all of my accumulated wealth and ten years of my longevity. This despite my fairly good outcome after reversal. PVPS is on my mind every day. Last night I had to take Lyrica to treat a pain that came from coughing and sneezing last month. Now I fear coughing and sneezing. This new pain has no other treatment and may or may not resolve. This is the life of a man with PVPS, always waiting, watching, wondering when the pain will come back or worsen. It consumes ones thoughts and can only be treated with distraction (hence all of my sport endeavors trying to prove to myself I am still a man and am OK).
> >
> > Your wife has the right to suggest vasectomy. She has the right to be concerned about the failure rates of condoms. She DOES NOT have the right to insist you get the surgery. If she knew of the risks and believed them, insisting seems absurd. Have her read my articles on www.Triond.com. They are under the name "Brain Doctor". At present, they get about 5 hits each per day or about 1500 per year.
> >
> > I am contacted by about one man a week with PVPS. To a man, they say vasectomy was the worst decision they ever made, and most are not the same men they were prior to the vasectomy. Your wife is wrong. The friends or relatives that ridicule you are wrong. Urology as a field is wrong about vasectomy. It is a bad procedure with known risks that outweigh its "benefits".
> >
> > By the way, Scott, you are a better man than me. If my father-in-law treated my PVPS like you describe, I 'd tell him to shut his trap. If he brought it up in that way again, I'd have to tell him that would only tolerate being around him for the sake of the marriage and that his comments on that subject would have to stop or I'd tell him to Shove off (in more colorful language).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A. Ellis, M.D.
> >
> > TheTaoRunner@ yahoo.com
> >
> > www.RunningBrain. com
> >  
> > www.PainAfterVasect omy.ORG
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Sun, 12/20/09, curtisa00 <curtisa00@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: curtisa00 <curtisa00@yahoo. com>
> > Subject: [VasectomyPain] Re: My Wife Hates Me
> > To: VasectomyPain@ yahoogroups. com
> > Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 9:37 AM
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> > I think her biggest concern is that condoms aren't foolproof and - let's face it - not real spontaneous. Of course, I've told her that vasectomies aren't foolproof either - but that didn't meet with good results. Frankly, since this whole issue has popped up we really don't have sex all that often anyways.
> >
> > She's just at a bad point right now and doesn't want to see the other side of the fence or to even entertain the idea that this might be a bad decision for both of us.
> >
> > Hopefully, with time, she'll come around. But right now she's pretty angry and bitter.
> >
> > Thanks for your reponse.
> > --- In VasectomyPain@ yahoogroups. com, "bstnguy@ " <bstnguy@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > Curtis,
> > >
> > > If you felt forced into it and had a bad outcome like us do you think your marriage is strong enough to survive the resentment and anger that is bound to follow ? Conversly wouldn't she be angry at you if she felt you forced her into a situation that caused her misery (I am no longer ok with tubal ligation now either). In this case I am fortunate in that the vasectomy was my decision. My wife still feels badly about it as although after two more surgeries the pain is going away but I still have lost a significant amount of feeling however I do not have the added burden of resenting the woman I love because I wasn't forced to do it.
> > >
> > > 10-20 % is not small, it is still between 50,000 and 100,000 guys in the US alone (It is hard to get real numbers though as it seems Urologist find it an "inconvienent truth". The key to it's wide acceptance in my opinion is deception. Unfortunately I found out too late.
> > >
> > > Does your wife think that vasectomy is consistant with a holistic lifestyle ? I understand your concern with birth control pills but does she think that purposely cutting into a body system with the intent of making it malfunction is healthy ? If you are willing to use condoms, I don't understand the issue she has ? I am however concerned with her apparent disregard for your legitimate feelings and concerns. She should talk to some of our wives and kids and see how great their lives have been since the procedure.
> > >
> > > Good luck
> > >
> > > Bernie
> > > --- In VasectomyPain@ yahoogroups. com, "curtisa00" <curtisa00@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Gentlemen,
> > > > I'm 33, my wife is 34.. We really don't want any more children and are both very holitic, natural health orientated so we are both down on birth control pills.
> > > >
> > > > About a year and a half ago I agreed to go get a vasectomy as that was the agreed upon thing when we got married. Well, the night before the procedure I started getting a little curious about what I was getting myself into. So I got online. WOW is all I can say.
> > > >
> > > > In fact, the doctor who I set the appointment up with never even had a consultation session. I just set up a time to get it done and they were going to do it.
> > > >
> > > > Anyways...I talk about it with my wife and the results weren't good. She thought I was being a baby and 'owed' her this. It was the 'right' thing to do.
> > > >
> > > > For the last year and a half we've been using condoms, withdrawl just plain rolling the dice. Granted - it isn't smart and as she is getting older she is really concerned about getting pregnant. Which I totally understand (I am too).
> > > >
> > > > The pressure at this point to undergo a vasectomy is extremely high. Last night it reached a crescendo as we got in a big fight about it.
> > > >
> > > > Everything inside me is screaming not to do it. I understand that the chances of long term side effects is low (apx. 10%-20%) but - with that part of my body I just don't want to take the chance. It doesn't seem worth it to me.
> > > >
> > > > But my wife feels betrayed by my change of heart. I can understand that she feels that way but I'm really not making any headway with her. I feel like, in a way, she resents me.
> > > >
> > > > I've tried to explain that I'm supportive of her decisions not to use hormonal methods or ligation or Essure. But, when it comes to the topic of vasectomy her eyes literally rage with hate against me.
> > > >
> > > > As I'm sure you can understand, this is putting a huge weight and burden on our marriage. I'm a health care professional (pharmacist) and understand immunology, anatomy and other subjects well. I'm ridiculed by family who have found out about my decision.
> > > >
> > > > I'm a strong person buy I feel backed into a corner in all directions - so I joined this group because I find your stories scary - but also something that I can relate to.
> > > >
> > > > If anybody has any advice or guidance I would really appreciate hearing it. I love my wife dearly but if she were to get pregnant I think she would resent me.
> > > >
> > > > If I were to get a vasectomy and have the kinds of problems explained here - I would resent her. It seems like a lose, lose proposition.
> > > >
> > > > I've written Dr. Ellis before and he was great and supported me. I've told my wife about these sorts of groups and the men who have problems but she's not interested.
> > > >
> > > > What would you do? Your feedback is really appreciated
> > > >
> > > > Best-
> > > >
> > >
> >
>




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